ghostrider
08/20/21 12:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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One major thing that seems to need pointing out is the term decommissioned. This does not mean automatic destruction of the item. It could simply mean not using it as it is considered obsolete. More then a few ships are decommissioned, yet not destroyed. The LC ship used for the museum is one example in the game. There are upgrades and even redesigns that use old hulls. Even today, there is a place were the store things that are no longer used in a desert location. A boneyard or graveyard of sorts.
The reason why this needs to be brought up is the fact that you may not need to build the boxes before the exodus, but just get them out of storage.
It is also possible that the SL 'decommissioned' the Boxes in order to shift them over to their intel department and cause others to breathe easier. The idea that the briefcase carried by some would not be suspected as being the Box.
It would be stupid if WOB ROM agents didn't use the Black box technology on some worlds. Not all worlds had the HPG set up on them. This would also make sense on worlds that Comstar ran the network. It is likely, though possible, that the DC did not inform Comstar about the tech.
Look at the history of rulers in the Feudal times. And that is all I will say on this particular topic.
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Requiem
08/20/21 03:49 PM
124.184.134.200
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Decommissioned
- to take a ship out of service (remove all weapons etc) and render inactive for military use – thus enable it suitable for civilian use or totally unusable (dismantle).
Given we are discussing a top-secret communication device (and not a ship that can be repurposed for civilian use) – decommissioned (in my opinion) equates to unusable (dismantled) (probably due to the short range and the long lag time of 10 light years equals 24 hours) as in all probability multiple pony express ships (which they have in vast numbers during this Star League era) are far more efficient at this stage in communicating information – they can jump further and send vast amounts of encrypted data via a tight “beam” of information in any specific direction – ie it can point at a specific point on the planet. (Similar to the Mars Rover communicating with earth).
What this demonstrates is that the Black Box – initial model – available to the SLDF is an absolute failure when compared to a pony express ship. The idea that they would be kept in storage for 170 plus years is ridiculous. At best they are a museum curiosity.
The idea that a spy in the far future would be issued with a 170 year old junk communication device that was deemed a failure stagers belief.
Why maintain a communications device that is so inherently flawed for this period of time – too short a range, too long to send the message, and the message is severely limited in size and anyone else with a receiver within range will also receive the message – so any message sent in the clear will be readily readable by them.
As is the pony express ships would have them beat on all of these metrics.
At this stage there can be only one reason why they were used in the far future (that I have thought of so far)
If we refer back to https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Prinz_Eugen_Mutiny in the Notes Section:
“The Prinz Eugen mutiny was instigated to a degree by Nicholas Kerensky, as an early example of his machinations … so that the mutineers could be made an example of.”
This should be replaced with … General Aleksandr Kerensky together with Nicholas Kerensky collude together , they use the old devices (which Aleksandr has kept as an antique for his personal collection) and provide their spy with one so that the mutineers could be made an example of … Aleksandr was loosing control so he happily used these malcontents to enforce his strict control over the fleet by using their apparent flight as an excuse to execute them (by his own son no less) as a means to maintaining control over the fleet – then together with his speech (Hidden Hope) he kept the fleet together on their journey to hell.
This is therefore a very dark and very unethical by both Aleksandr and Nicholas … which can also be used as an explanation of why Nicholas created the Clans … he used the example that his father taught him during the Prinz Eugen Mutiny to take control by force / fear and murder! Which can again be seen during the Wolverine Incident – set up one group for termination – so the remainder will be kowtowed into obeying the ruler (Nicholas) ….
As it was not only Nicholas who had machinations towards power it was also his father Aleksandr.
In the far future however – in the absence of pony express ships due to the limited number of ships and ComStar’s monopoly of the HPG grid – the Black box can be used despite its obvious flaws (hence the research into upgrading its capabilities) it is no longer seen as junk and worthless it is now seen as a real alternative to the HPG grid.
Also by the time WOB ROM every habitat world would have a HPG and unless they too have initiated massive R&D into the Black Box the original will require a massive chain of boxes to get message from A to B and this will require a massive amount of time – so in all reality would it be worth it?
The DC would never let ComStar Know they have a Black Box for the same reason the FC wouldn’t do so.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/20/21 05:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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I think you missed a few things with the Black Box verses the pony express. First of you can send multiple messages per day. I did not see anything that said you can't send more then one message in an hour. It just says you are limited to the amount of data per message.
Second off, the use of ships is far more expensive. Granted, it is very possible that those ships are going to the destination of the box, but how many ships are you going to tie up to do so? Potentially one week per ship, two if they have the batteries. Sooner or later, you will be stuck with dealing with jump drive recharge time. Yes, hot loading is possible, but would you really want to risk it? The ship you might wipe out the drive in doing so, may well be your primary warship.
Once the large HPGs were set up, the box would take a second place to it. But the HPG network was not quick to be set up. The pony express lanes would be first, then followed by others. The box is still the best solution for ground units needing to make reports.
Another issue is having to have jump vessels in every system. How long do you wait before jumping out with the message bundle? With a few exceptions, people will notice a jump vessel just sitting there.
Morass code it still used despite being relatively old. The fact that the Box is probably the ONLY means of contact outside of a system would be a big factor in it still being used. I do agree that if left without maintenance, it might not work, but I doubt the Box was really decommissioned. Public statements saying it isn't the same as actually doing it. And even then, I don't think the SL would state they even had them, unless everyone knew they did.
Granted the print does say they did, but I believe this to be against logic.
Also, it is very possible that criminals as well as rebels would have started using the device. Send normally coded message for things like come to Tharkad on the 10th. Small messages just to organize. Gibberish to anyone that doesn't know the code.
I don't think that even the at the height of the SL, they had every world covered with an HPG. Not counting the periphery, where they would have limited them to specific base worlds for the SL, a lot of smaller worlds may not have been covered by the HPG. Regular shipments would probably serve as a carrier for them.
This also means that a lot of systems would have multiple colonies in them, such as asteroid mining bases while in Sol. Terra might have it, but not the others. Then again, even the main world may not have one.
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Requiem
08/21/21 01:25 AM
124.184.134.200
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Quote:
I think you missed a few things with Black Box versus pony express
Black Box
Range 100 light years
Duration 10 light years every 24 hours – thus at 100 light years 10 days or 240 hours
Data packet – 200 Kilobytes
Text Message Only as it is only a fax machine.
Pony Express – with multiple ships (command circuit)
Time taken to receive information at jump point then Jump - send information packet to second ship and for that second ship to Jump etc
Time to reach 100 light years – far less than 10 days!
Unlimited size of Data Packet and more than one data packet can be sent …
Will be able to include Audio and Visual Files to reinforce the message …
So, no I do not believe I have – in an era where there should be a massive number of pre-existing pony express ships to enable swift communication within each Great House the Black Box is a very poor substitute.
ie. you cannot have one ship making multiple jumps with massive time lags due to recharging the battery – just like the pony express of old when one rider made it to a staging post, they would hand it off to the next rider and so on and so forth until it reached its destination in the quickest amount of time.
A pony express ship may be moor expensive in monetary terms – and yet when it comes to time as a means of currency in war the Pony express is way more cost effective than the Black Box – messages must reach the front lines as quickly as possible and when you have ‘a multiple pony expresses’ linked into a command circuit this is absolutely the most efficient means of delivering any message for this time-period.
The pony express command circuit is the only way forward in this era.
These pony ships would be the size of a bug-eye and given the vastness of space – good luck in finding it at any jump-point! This is similar to finding one grain of sand on a beach!
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Also, it is very possible that criminals as well as rebels would have started using the device.
First why would the military let civilians know of such devices as if there are pre-set frequencies the amount of overlapping messages could make their use obsolete as now the people at the end are only receiving gibberish due to the number of people using them at a single point on time.
Problem is that they have pre-set frequencies – so any police units equipped with them can receive the message – then it is just a matter of how good your cryptologists are …
So unless these Black Boxes were first uses in the civil sector prior to being used in the military (like the enigma) then I doubt anyone would ever let their existence known.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator
“By the time of Stefan Amaris’ coup, the Star League Communication Network (SLCOMNET) was at its peak, linking every single inhabited world throughout the Inner Sphere and Periphery, backed up by mobile transmitters aboard many official Terran Hegemony civil-service and military JumpShips and WarShips.”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/21 02:33 AM
45.51.181.83
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First why would the military let civilians know of such devices
so any police units equipped with them can receive the message
The second statement didn't answer the first? Also, people do retire from the military, so it isn't like the SL did mind wipes. Third, there is always someone in the civilian sector that seems to be part of projects, like making the boxes.
And one that can not be overlooked is some in the military brag to their buddies outside the military about things.
The SL could well have decommissioned crate loads of the boxes, but didn't know that the units inside were not what they thought they were. Black market profiteers do exist in the military, as well as the standard replace the real thing with a fake case. It is not likely the people destroying them by the crate load will check every single unit to make sure it is the box. Most would see the packing slip and leave it at that. The com boxes are easier to conceal then say an ERLL.
I know the game lacks logic in major ways, but something like this would not remain the simple concept that the first series sets. It is possible that the box was captured by enemy agents, which is why it was sent to be decommissioned. I find it unlikely the SL scientists and techs couldn't find a way to encrypt and change things so they could continue to use them before the HPG came out. I will say this is more conjecture then fact.
So unless these Black Boxes were first uses in the civil sector prior to being used in the military (like the enigma) then I doubt anyone would ever let their existence known.
Funny irony here. It may well have been something of a toy from an inventor that set up the whole concept of the black box and HPG afterwards. It isn't like it hasn't happened in the past. The walkie talkie was public, while the military had refined theirs.
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Requiem
08/21/21 04:13 AM
124.184.134.200
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Exactly, 1st the military should never let such a device become commonplace and 2nd if they did then the device has some serious limitations that even criminal organization would find difficult. Unless the two worlds they were on were less than 100 light years apart – and we hope the police do not have one on the same frequency and are investigating …
As for people – how many secrets were kept by those who went through them in WW2 when they were told not to ever discuss them – many kept them until they were approached 50 years after the event by an academic who had worked it all out and by then they too had finally decided to let go and relented when making a documentary …
So the problem is, yes they may have told some people, and yet how many of them reported in a syndicated newsfeed that was virtually nation wide so that everyone knew of its existence? And even if they did …. like enigma … all that probably ever came of it was a movie (that distorted reality) and a museum based upon the SLDF’s Reunification War on Terra where they were kept as an oddity.
Then along comes Kerensky and he decides to take the museum with him, and then the rest is history …
Yes, I agree some may have been sold off – but again if they are rare, then they are expensive, thus the private collector and the private museum.
And yes, periphery agents could have captured them – but again why didn’t these Periphery realms then reverse engineer them for their own use? That is that they too thought of them as a useless long-term project.
As they never made a splash in history it can be said, with some degree of certainty, they never made it to the consumer / military market in mass numbers.
The reason it was decommissioned is that the pony-express can be said to have outperformed them – then when the HPG finally came along it would finally outperformed the pony express – hence the pony express was decommissioned – and in this case I would like to ask where are all the private yachts made from decommissioned pony express ships?
A private small very comfortable Jump-ship for the mega wealthy, something like you see on all the films where the bad guy has a mega yacht and the good guy has get on board …..
So can someone look at recommissioning a bug-eye into a super uber luxury yacht for the uber wealthy …
Yes, I agree there is some irony here
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/21 12:12 PM
45.51.181.83
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And yes, periphery agents could have captured them – but again why didn’t these Periphery realms then reverse engineer them for their own use? That is that they too thought of them as a useless long-term project.
Lots of what ifs come up. Maybe the periphery did reverse engineer them, and this is why the fight went wrong. The fact the enemy did have access to their own reports and orders gave the rebels the ability to fight beyond what they should have been capable of. Actually, this can be made canon, as I believe Katrina found the stash of them in the old RWR areas when running from her uncle. This also may explain how Amaris did better then you think. Spies and coding would still allow the SL intel department access to HPGs in the TH area. Getting secret orders out without using jumpships might well have been with the boxes.
Cost is important, but for the big crime bosses, they have even gotten ahold of dropships and mechs. Hell, some of them may well have been buying from the dirty quartermasters and distributing them. It is unlikely that someone that took a box with them when they left the military then fell on hard times is going to offer to sell it to anyone that might inform law officials.
The reason it was decommissioned is that the pony-express can be said to have outperformed them
A simple question comes up with this. If this is true, why bother with mass production of the boxes? Yes, they were a step towards the HPG network, but they could not have known that at the time. I would suspect orders were by jumpships carriers before the boxes were made. So why bother with making them outside of possible intel uses?
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Requiem
08/21/21 08:25 PM
124.184.134.200
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Yes, I agree there are lots of what ifs come up.
And yes, maybe the periphery did reverse engineer them and they did use this knowledge to prolong the Reunification war – just as Enigma / Ultra enabled the allies to reduce the time of the war.
However, at the time of Amaris all traffic is going through the HPG – so unless Kerensky and the SLDF reverts-back to Black Box technology, then there is now way for Amaris’ spies to pick up on this, and then subsequently use their own Black Boxes against the SLDF.
And yes Katrina did find the Black Boxes whist on the run from her uncle – problem is this story was never fleshed out – despite how many pleaded for the story from TPTB.
Suggest looking up – John Anthony Walker Jr – convicted of spying for Russia – this could be used as the basis of a story / plot re selling information and material to organised crime.
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A simple question comes up with this. If this is true, why bother with mass production of the boxes?
Simple answer is they were never mass produced as we would take the term to mean. During the Reunification War a trial unit (maybe a couple hundred boxes) were manufactured and distributed in order to evaluate the efficiency / effectiveness of this new technology in a real war environment – what they discovered at the time is that the current model, as is, was just not efficient as it should have been – hence it was ultimately decommissioned rather than ordered to evaluate whether the Black Box technology could be improved upon.
At this point you have got to wonder what could have been if you mix a Black box with a HPG.
prior to Black box was the pony express - civilian and military or one in the same?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/21 08:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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The boxes were some of the best ways for spies to contact other systems at the time. Being undercover for a long time means not drawing attention to you. Even with drop boxes, you can give yourself away, or a fellow agent. Until the boxes were better known, you could send the messages without blowing your cover. The quick burst, if you were smart enough not to send it at the same time every day, would be enough to make it look like just back ground noise.
And if the actual unit works as a normal fax machine, then this covers itself. I would think having a special codeword needed to gain access to the HPG part of it would be standard, without having a prompt asking for it. Much like a cheat code for console games.
Given the fact that sending things along civilian means has been done throughout history, it would still be used in the future. With the thumb drive today, you could send a lot of information along, and the device used to receive and send messages wouldn't have to be HPG size. Something like a phone would be larger then needed. Once installed, you wouldn't have to touch it again, as you could charge it with simple WIFI. So it is very possible some ships still around from that time frame could have those very units still working. Just no one sending the code to access them. Even the builders may not know they are there. A small plate to square out a corner in the wing could be used to cover the device.
Technically, the black box is an hpg. Speed and size of what can be sent is the main difference. You are talking about sending a message light years from your point of origin. It may take 24 hours/10 light years, but it is far faster then light speed.
So less then a day to get it to closest system to Sol. I would imagine this is better then using normal coms to talk to a jumpship ready to take the messages out of system. Not all systems are the max jump from each other. It is not the ultimate for long range, but very useful when secrecy is needed.
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Requiem
08/21/21 09:35 PM
124.184.134.200
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Quote:
The boxes were some of the best ways for spies to contact other systems at the time.
As long as the range requirement and lag time was not a factor.
So yes, this is where a mix of HPG / Blac Box should have been considered. Problem is such technology would make ComStar obsolete overnight.
The machine itself would be accessible with any lock you would like to put on it – the message also would have to heavily encrypted, just in case, someone can intercept the message.
The original model Vs a couple of hundred years development can make for a very interesting machine.
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I would imagine this is better then using normal coms to talk to a jumpship ready to take the messages out of system
At 200Kb per message and only text is allowed – no audio and no visual and no computer anything – just text on paper that is scanned and sent (consider it as a small text message). Very limited when you consider that the Star League is a high tech wonderland – it must have been very demoralizing for every techy individual who used high tech every day to be so limited to just plain text.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/22/21 03:21 AM
45.51.181.83
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Just having a fax machine in the future would be low tech.
But then before the HPG came out, this was the only way to contact other systems without using jumpships.
Demoralizing isn't something I would say. Just text is far better then just memory, as sometimes plans change. It is better to ask a stupid question then make a stupid mistake.
Something like corporate has found out the building will need extra reinforcements because of poor soil. No jumpships are available to head into that system. Without an HPG, both before they came out and even afterwards, as the system doesn't have enough pop to require one, the box would be perfect. Without giving away a secret location, simple information like the shipment is coming in next week on such and such day, means anything else is considered a hostile ship. Without some means of detecting the box, this would be a very secure way of sending information without having risking interception.
Comstar's monopoly on the comes should have never happened. Where it is true that having neutral coms with the enemy is good, the houses should have had their own network running, at least to important worlds. This tech should not have disappeared, given all the sources they had to keep it alive. A few smaller units in say the Fox's Den would be required. I can see manufacturing having issues as they would be bombed into rubble, but the HQ of the FS would be safe for an HPG set up, made and run by the FS.
Technically, the Black Boxes did make an interesting machine. The HPG units could be said to have been inspired by the boxes at least. It may well be the tech to make the boxes is the basis for the HPG. More power and an antenna can make a huge difference is the Box.
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Requiem
08/22/21 06:34 AM
124.184.134.200
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Unfortunately, the box was deemed not worth the effort – from a military point of view, and if it ever reached the consumer market it was also deemed unviable and finally from the point of view of the scientific / engineering community who also viewed it as an anomaly that was not worth the effort for additional research and development.
What could have happened if the Black Box – Fax Machine had received additional research and development? Similar to the evolution of the mobile phone?
Black Box – each time range increases / duration decreases / data package increases
– Military Fax
– Consumer Fax
– Growth of the feature Black Box
– Test message gives way to allow electronic camera images
– Advent of video message becomes possible (4G)
– additional built in features superior data speed / reliability etc. (5G)
Now all that is required is a realistic timeline …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/22/21 12:34 PM
45.51.181.83
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The fact that faxes can send images shows they did not want the box to be mainstream communications. It is difficult to track down usage of it, meaning they could not shut off coms to a world by shutting down the HPGs. Yes, Jumpships can carry messages, but those forms of communications were easier to trace.
It is also possible they kept the data transfer to a minimal to avoid longer bursts for tracking reasons.
So I don't believe it was tech issues that prevented them being in the game, but more of the developers didn't want them.
The question of why would I use the HPG network if all I am doing is sending a happy birthday wish to family in a different system? This is also a way to send out information so the main government wouldn't know about it. It removes some of the importance of the HPG network. More secure, faster, larger transmissions would make it even more important to resistances.
And with this, it leads to the question of why the HPG was so large? The entire transmitter does not have to be that big, and with the Mobile ones, it isn't. I don't know if range was changed on the smaller versions, but this leads to the whole why so large question.
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Requiem
08/22/21 03:28 PM
124.184.134.200
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HPGs allow for corporations to make massive money – they also provide the government a means of oversight when it comes to communication.
Black Boxes – does neither – one you have the box and a frequency your opposite and you can send and receive as much as you want within its text / time limitations
Perhaps it was greed and the government’s ability to vet all communication as a reason why the Black Box program was shut down.
Perhaps the government was scared of loosing control over communication.
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why the HPG was so large?
Rather then sending a missive in a spherical direction – the HPG directs them message at a particular target, and rather than one text message the HPG allows for a massive number of individual messages (of any variety, text to videos) to be combined and sent.
Apparently, sending anything other than one plain text message requires a massive energy and a massive dish to accomplish.
One further point – K-4 series can send 4 megabytes of data - depending on how much each character takes up, singe spaced vs double spaced page, and font.
On average …. Single spaced – it will take about 250 pages of text to equate to one megabyte and double spaced about 500 pages to equal one megabyte.
So the idea that the K-5 and k-6 can only send 35 pages and 50 pages of text seems a little off …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/22/21 06:35 PM
45.51.181.83
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Where does it say that the smaller HPG units, like the ones installed on warships, had a limited range or amount they could send?
Which again asks why the standard ones in use in the IS in the 3000 era were bigger then houses?
Putting as small dish transmitter on a unit should solve the spherical data sending. Granted, the tighter the beam sent, the more targeting the world you want is required.
This also supports the concept that sending ship to ship messages when those ships are not at a jump point, makes it that much more likely the message will not be received. You could be anywhere in a system when a message was sent. So even the large HPG units were not as specific as you would think. Yes, they would have a more standard receiver in a set location, but there would still be some need for area of effect for the messages to be received properly. It can't be like a laser beam and hit one specific location. Otherwise, you could just put something over the dish to prevent anything from coming it, or possibly being sent out.
This would mean attacks on the dishes that do not affect the HPG mechanisms and electronics themselves, would be very common.
And with the later models, the FC DID start limiting the direction of transmission, so that counteracts the sending all directions. The SL had to have been able to deal with the issues. But once the HPG came out, I can see them wanting all coms to go thru SL controlled com stations. But this still does not answer the 16 year gap between decommissioning the boxes that the first transmission with the big units.
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Requiem
08/22/21 10:52 PM
124.184.134.200
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator
the maximum range of an HPG pulse is 50 light years
Each pulse can carry terabytes of compressed information, everything from simple text to books and video.
On average the time for transmission of a non-priority message between Terra and Tharkad takes about a week
The fixed planetary networks in both the Inner Sphere and Clan space are also bolstered by portable transmitters aboard a small number of JumpShips and WarShips as well as message "buoys", allowing messages to traverse the gaps in and between each network.
Mobile HPGs
The most common form of mobile HPG is the 50-ton model, introduced in 2655, is installed upon large spacecraft, such as JumpShips and WarShips; an even smaller 12-ton ground-mobile model, designed for transport by ground vehicles or BattleMechs, was developed in 2751.
There is no mention of reduced range or a decrease amount of data for the mobile HPG – thus they should be able to transmit as per standard HPG.
In my opinion if you are going to have a HPGs in ships as well as HPG network on planet. Then the ones on planet MUST have both dish and Black Box – transmitters
To send messages both directly to an adjacent world using the dish and to the warship that could be who knows where via a black box spherical message system. Thus you can blanket an entire region with messages quickly to ensure all (or most) of the warships receive information packs asap.
The 16 year gap year was just the SLDF admitting the Black box was a failure and just reverting back to the more reliable pony express system.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/21 02:51 PM
45.51.181.83
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A thought came up dealing with the clans and their sibkos had they taken Terra as originally planned. The amount of worlds would have been to much for the invading clans to cover from each other, much less dealing with homeworld clans trying to take them as well as the houses hitting the clans to try and reclaim their worlds.
Would the clans have upped the numbers of trueborn warriors to try and protect them all? Would they have moved like the Bears did?
Would they have to try and take the entire IS, as they could not even try to hold against the IS once the clans had worlds to attack almost constantly?
Would the eventual thought come down to having to remove the IS ability to make jumpships in order to stop the houses from attacking them?
Would they increase the numbers of warships they had in order to discourage attacks on their worlds? Not challenges but the typical hit without warning that the IS was famous for.
Would the houses eventually gather enough warships to begin to challenge the clans? This is sketchy as Comstar was the original source for drives, which means the IS would have to start building them on their own.
Given the arraignment of the truce battle, would Comstar have actually complied? Would WOB had struck out against the clans at that point?
Would the IS be forced to take the HPGs in their areas to avoid them being used by the clans to gain intel on the houses? Would the the FC and DC give the box technology to the FWL/CC? Or would they leave them to deal with the clans owning the HPG? Would WOB contest the clans running the HPGs? This would also leave the question of would the clans invade the FWL/CC to take control of the HPG network entirely? Which also means would they eventually strike the periphery states to do to same?
Would the clans hit the periphery since it was their rebellion that allowed Amaris's plan to work?
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Requiem
08/25/21 06:25 PM
1.158.137.81
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Upping the number of True born – requires 15 years minimum for the children to mature into warriors – then there is the question of how many test out from the original sibko number.
Then there is logistics – do the clans have a military industrial capabilities large enough to manufacture all the weapon systems available for the military you are suggesting – in all reality I would say no.
The Clans CANNOT take all of the Inner Sphere – They do not have the population – there are many worlds throughout the IS that have a population in excess of the ENTIRE CLANS. This is why the idea the clans can expand their realms as large as they have by the il-clan arc becomes ludicrous. But I am not surprised the entirety of the arcs post 3039 (and many prior to this) are lost in their conceptual believability – they were never thought through on any level.
Once Jump-ships become a target in the game – you are once more back to 1st succession war brutality on steroids. It will also shift the game – Navy all the way.
It would also necessitate all Jump-ship manufacturers to re-build their facilities in hidden systems – it will also necessitate explorer corps to hunt for the Clan Home Worlds – and once found I would not put it past the IS leaders at the time to order the complete and utter genocide of every person on every world just as they did with the Master in the Jihad era.
So, this arc becomes sick and twisted beyond all others – still want to go down this path?
No amount of warships can stop this vengeance!
As for the IS – as stated many times – they would have to band together and pour all of their remaining production into warship (and nuclear / biological Weapon development) as well as very fast dropships – bomber class – who’s sole purpose is to get above a world and seed it with enough nuclear and biological material so as to render it a dead world shortly thereafter.
It then comes down to a race as to who can manufacture the most in least amount of time!
So again want to go down this sick path just as the jihad era did?
And yes the WOB would be let off their leash and told it was now a holy crusade to kill every clan that does not become a part of the Star League! So you though what they did during the jihad arc was evil, just wait this will be infinitely worse!
As for the HPGs – why bother the Clans should have them in all of their warships to begin with.
The real question is do they have the forces in numbers to even reach the FWL / CC – as by then who knows how much damage is caused to the IS new SLDF and the Clans
The game now has become a total nightmare and most sane people have abandoned it …
As hidden fleets roam the galaxy in search of their enemy, civilian or military, to destroy them in a fire …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/30/21 04:36 PM
45.51.181.83
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Anyone else have any thoughts on the questions posed?
Even the questions of how the IS lost the HPG capabilities, especially with the retcon of the mobile HPG units. The fact these were small and I did not see any limitations for them over the big antenna ones, makes me wonder why the big dishes became so popular with Comstar. Is it because they can't be moved, so stealing them isn't an issue?
The 16 year gap between the end of the black boxes and the starting of the dish HPGs is something else that could use some input on why this would happen. Forgetting military needs, simple requests from planets, especially corporations to their branches would have kept this alive, if the military couldn't keep it from the public.
This would be especially true for a jumpship that broke down outside the normal transportation lanes.
Edited by ghostrider (08/30/21 04:37 PM)
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ghostrider
09/02/21 10:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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The thought of the FWL and the lack of PPCs came to mind.
Was there some joke intended when the developers made the FWL the manufacturers of the Awe-8q and the Goliath with the PPC issues?
Looking in the older books to see the FWL only produced around 500 mechs a year with only 30 or so being assault mechs got me to thinking of this issue. I can understand the lack keeping those numbers low, but this sounds artificial even for the game.
Until the video games came out with the variants of the Awesome, I really didn't pay attention to anything but the 8q. The numbers of them in the IS suggests a different story as well.
I was wondering what I missed in this.
Was there a specific campaign to wipe out all PPC makers in the FWL? I know all factories are targeted from time to time, but this seems really odd.
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ghostrider
09/03/21 08:46 PM
45.51.181.83
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The idea of the 3025 mechs being SL era units downgraded, while the very units they find in caches are the exact same things makes me wonder if those units were just SL models, and that the houses had their own ones, but those factories making them didn't survive.
As we know, the original SL did have manufacturing plants scattered around the IS, and there are very few exclusive units to the houses, it sounds a bit odd that they would have the same base models available to all. As I stated in the past, the idea that the SL had the same models with advanced gear, this would fit.
Either that, or the houses bought almost every mech from SL manufacturers.
The game says the SL mechs were just plain better then 3025 models, so how can this be if they are the same thing?
The same could be said for aerofighters as well to an extent.
It also leads to questions about dropships as well. I doubt very much the 3025 era ones were the same exact build as the ones they used to hit the Periphery then Amaris with. Pocket warships was discussed in other threads, so I will leave them out for now.
Even vehicles, such as the Von Luckner were SL era tanks which seem weak compared to the legends.
I know cost would limit some things, but in order to be the leader of the IS, just having the tech without deploying it doesn't cut it.
Unless they expected their warships to hold back the tide.
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ghostrider
09/24/21 09:32 PM
45.51.181.83
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Recently, it occurred to me that the DC had a working Stinger LAM factory, yet no where in the TO&E of the DCMS did they list the LAM being part of any units.
Does anyone have any lists that I missed or did TPTB just ignore the factory entirely?
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Karagin
09/25/21 12:03 AM
70.118.172.64
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They did have one on Irece right up till either the Bears or Cats razed it to the ground.
Now having one and having the pilots etc..yeah not always the same thing. They have the ability but not the skill to use them, or they found while great for some things the LAMs are too fragile for combat and thus their limited recon/scout niche isn't worth the expending of resources beyond making enough to sell to the Gaikoku hito who want to waste things, etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/25/21 12:21 AM
45.51.181.83
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It would make sense to use it either as a mech or a fighter, if nothing else. The fact that Comstars deal with the 3039 war suggested the DC was running short on units would mean they would be forced to use what ever they had. There is nothing saying they had to be used as LAMs.
It was just a thought that came up.
Another question would be that if the LAMs were so poor, why not convert it into a factory that made something better, even if just a Stinger Factory.
And a thought came to mind about the SDS system and Kerensky taking down Amaris.
Could the time delay have been so the planets that had the SDS components on them, were given time to be at the maximum distance from each other, so as to give Kerensky time to deal with each without being overwhelemed?
As the wiki says, it was not just dropships or stations, but ground batteries along with the drones and such that were part of the same system. Given time for worlds they were stationed at, may well have prevented more casualties then hitting those systems when they are all clumped together.
This is just another thought that doesn't have anything canon to suggest one way or another.
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Karagin
09/25/21 01:50 AM
70.118.172.64
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They knew folks would buy the parts and or whole working mechs. Given that monkeying with the factory, prior to the Helm and CS help, would not be something they would want to do. It could go wrong and then nothing could be made there. So, they would just keep making what it makes, because some of the stuff meant spare parts for their own Stinger mechs as well as hard cash on the open markets.
The SDS (Space Defense System) network most likely had many planets that had some parts of the network like one might have ground batteries, while another might have only the space-borne systems. I think it depended on the importance of the world from all levels as to what scale of the network they had or got.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
09/26/21 07:36 PM
68.169.149.5
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The factory you guys are talking about is LexaTech: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/LexaTech_Industries
The Nova Cats captured the factory intact (Objective Raids p64), but later razed it because it constructed what they felt were abominations as LAMs had long since fallen out of favor with the Clans.
Its my understanding the factory had very small output even before the Clans arrived, turning out less new Stinger LAMs than the Draconis Combine had been losing over the last two centuries (i.e., less than 10 a year.) Still, LAMs are highly useful as scouts, so the Combine may have never wanted to replace it with something else that provided less value (like regular Stingers.) It was also producing spare parts for both Stinger LAMs and the few Phoenix Hawk and Wasp LAMs still around, and few, if any, other factories in the Inner Sphere were doing this by 3050. So it had high value, even if little overall impact.
Given the Nova Cat's actions and the general waste-not approach by the Clans, either the LAMs greatly offended them or the factory wasn't worth converting to something the Nova Cats could use (or the likely combination of both). I think the factory was in really bad shape and that helps explain its low output. But it could create spare parts to keep existing units working, even if it couldn't put enough new units into the field. The Nova Cats had no use for the mechs or the spare parts, and apparently not worth the trouble of refurbishing it, so they just wiped it out.
Its also my belief, though I've no canon evidence to back it up, that parts from this factory helped House Marik refit Wasp LAMs to the WSP-105M config in 3024, through Concord of Kapteyn arrangements. Marik had the LAMs, Kurita had the parts, and the intro year is spot-on.
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ghostrider
09/26/21 09:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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Given the fact that clan warriors do not share control of units like fighters or mechs, and they are not trained in both, the idea of the LAM is completely against their teachings. This somewhat explains the clans dislike to hatred of the units.
The big thing I was looking at is the lack of any listings for the DCMS having a Stinger LAM in any units. Not even suggesting the ISF had pilots trained in them for stealth insertion and retraction from worlds. And the time frame of before the clans came in is when I was thinking.
And with the information suggested that the DCMS was losing LAMs over the years, but the listings I have seen, never had LAMs listed is why I asked.
The fact that they can be used in Achilles and Intruder dropships, launch and land in fighter mode, would make them great for recon. I understand upgrading them would be difficult for some part, but before 3040 that isn't much of an issue anyways.
I am not aware of the parts being used in the Phoenix Hawk LAMs, as they are almost completely different to each other, but the Wasp LAM would be close enough.
I can see that TPTB would want to remove the unit due to the lawsuits, but they should have done something like had the factory breakdown/sabotage to stop production for a while, only to have it fixed later in the storyline.
It just seems like they forgot it existed when it came to TO&Es for units.
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Wick
09/27/21 04:57 PM
68.169.149.5
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LAMs were already pretty rare by 3025, became even rarer during the 4th Succession War, and all but extinct by the Clan Invasion. By 3059, only the WOB retains a few (10 by my count, which shrinks to just 4 in 3076 before new LAMs are introduced in 3077.)
You've got some LAMs listed on the TO&Es of some merc groups, like Wolf's Dragoons who have six in 3030, but they are such a small component of the larger House Militaries that they'd never show up on a RAT table. My guesswork for the military makeup of each House in 3050 results in 6 LAMs for AFFS, 2 for CCAF, 45 for DCMS, 4 for FWLM, and 17 for LCAF. Even amongst the DCMS, this is 0.4% of their mech makeup, or 2.8% of their fighter complement, depending how you'd want to assign them. Potentially a 12 on a fighter roll, but much too rare to be discussed in terms of mechs (which is where most militaries put them.)
The ComGuard also has 60 pre-Tukkayid. This would represent about 1.1% of their mech forces. (The SLDF ran around around 3.2% LAMs.)
I like the idea of ISF or other "commandos" using LAMs as insertion/extraction craft as they provide powered descent like a fighter but can land anywhere rather than on dedicated runways. If I was running the show, folks like the ISF or Rabid Foxes is exactly who I'd wish to reserve my few LAMs for in the 3030-3050 timeframe. I don't know of any reason why this couldn't be true, if you were to write fiction about it. They just haven't devoted many paragraphs to the concept of LAMs in most material. With a few exceptions to some combat vehicles, you don't read much about special-forces-specific units. In TRO:3025, the special forces of each House weren't really a well-defined concept yet; by the time they were defined (post-Clan Invasion), LAMs were effectively extinct as part of the writing out of anything that potentially violated copyrights. I think this goes a long way to explain why you may not have read anything about them being used by the ISF, though they very well could have been, especailly after becoming Reseen.
As far as actual examples of DCMS unit with LAMs, Clay Moretti of Sorenson's Sabres flies a Phoenix Hawk LAM PHX-HK2 in 3026. (Sorenson's Sabres scenario book, p25.) Tai-i Mandrake Matherson of the Twelfth Dieron Regulars’ Special Air Lance pilots a customized Wasp LAM WSP-105 per TRO:3085 p296. He commands a 4 LAM unit 3028-3040. So that's five LAMs across those two sources. Whether found in TO&Es or not, those five at least are canonized.
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ghostrider
09/27/21 06:20 PM
45.51.181.83
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Ok. I stand corrected. The Sabres did have a Phoenix Hawk LAM in it. I don't have the TRO 3085, but I will take your word for it. Stupid thing is, I had the Sabres book and missed that.
I would try to use the excuse of not reading the book for a while, but that is a cop out.
I would think the LAMs would make a great example of something that should have Stealth armor on them. Double sinks would work well with this, so no problems with heat.
Thanks for the info.
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Wick
09/27/21 06:54 PM
68.169.149.5
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Admittedly, I got lucky with the Sabres book. Its the only one I could think of off my head that is a Draconis Combine unit book, and despite only 12 units one of them turned out to be a LAM (LAMs were a popular thing in these early pre-Unseen scenario books.)
The TRO:3085 entry is something I had written on my list of Missing-in-MUL (with a note it should have Draconis Combine and Unique tags for Renaissance era). I thought it was just one mech but reread it to see it named four LAMs in the 12th Dieron's unit. (Doesn't say what the other three are, but likely Stinger LAMs.)
Special types of armor are forbidden on LAMs. Or at least, Ferro-Fibrous explicitly is (as is Endo Steel structure.) The bulkier size of these items prohibit the conversion. Stealth probably fits this bill. TechManual doesn't say one way or the other, but does describe Stealth Armor as "about as bulky as ferro-fibrous armor" (p206) so I'd suggest this is enough to doom its possibility of being used on LAMs. You'd have to ask CGL for an official ruling though.
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