ghostrider
04/28/16 08:33 PM
66.74.61.223
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Have the developers thought of making a hellfire missile type of bomb?
Something that can be dropped from orbit and take out the sensor nets looking for ships?
Also related, just what is the range of mechs sensors?
Can they detect a dropship in orbit?
Or if there is anything heading their direction 5 miles out? 10 miles?
Thought about after posting, but would an advanced probe extend this range without finding the specials like it does at closer ranges?
Edited by ghostrider (04/28/16 08:34 PM)
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ghostrider
04/28/16 08:57 PM
66.74.61.223
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Thought came up with ams and bombs.
I believe the ams does not engage bombs fired at a unit.
Is this because the bombs have no active targeting apparatus on it?
And since they have Tag guided missiles, would not tag guided bombs be the next logical step in this progression?
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Karagin
04/28/16 08:58 PM
61.40.222.5
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They have not really done anything like that in the game, per say, they did have a similar idea back in the Renegade Legion game called the THOR, it fired guided steel like darts or crowbars from orbit to hit ground targets. The idea is not a new one, but is limited in how it can be used in an era of warships, dropships and fighters.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/29/16 03:00 AM
66.74.61.223
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Thor? Haven't heard of it, but there is a game called TOG (terrain overlord government) that had a video game as well as battle game out. I played the original, and it was fun. Same with the video game. But once you figure out the mass drivers don't bother with shields, it gets alot easier.
So any comments on the suggestions?
The idea of the sensor information came while thinking of what would happed if a planets sensor or radar was taken out. Weither by force or just hacked. Kind of harm bomb then how do you figure out where the enemy is landing at, or is at?
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Karagin
04/29/16 09:56 AM
61.40.222.5
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Yes Renegade Legion did have a video game spin off or two. The suggestion to look at the THOR from that game was my suggestion and again having something like that would not last long given that the orbit can be tracked and the other side has aerospace fighters that can shoot it down.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
04/29/16 05:35 PM
67.8.237.126
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Have the developers thought of making a hellfire missile type of bomb?
TAG-guided bombs and artillery shells have been in the game for about 20 years.
Quote:
Something that can be dropped from orbit and take out the sensor nets looking for ships?
That's a different matter. There aren't a lot of anti-sensor munitions in the game, and no guided orbit-to-surface weapons.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/29/16 08:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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Might have been thinking of harm missiles. The ones that lock onto radar stations and go in from that.
I did know the arrow IV had tag guided missiles, but they did have tag guided aircraft and Aerofighter bombs? Ok. Good to know.
Do they have rules for announcing which units are being targeted?
Or can a load of units target different units and direct the fire to those that got a lock on it?
I can see that being abused. Missed my lock on, but one of the others has a lock. Or multiple locks on different units.
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Akalabeth
04/30/16 03:42 AM
108.180.183.124
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TAG rules are in BMR.
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ghostrider
04/30/16 12:01 PM
66.74.61.223
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Didn't see anything about multiple lock ons on more then one unit.. And with normal game proceedures, you specify targets before resolution. I understand if a lock on doesn't happen, shifting the target if another lock on is achieved with another unit, but it goes against the targeting rules to decide, well since this unit is dead, I will shift the ordinance to another unit. Can't do that with the field units, why would off map artillery be able to?
Also they say multiple units can lock on the same target, but nothing is said of multiple targets being locked up.
I believe this need to be cleared up.
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ghostrider
05/04/16 12:43 AM
66.74.61.223
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It was suggested a short while ago that the company would not remake all the units in the game to fill some issues that came up.
Dungeons and Dragons has done it at least 3 times in the history of the game. It is still around and making money. The basic, advanced, and 3.0 rule sets changed a majority, if not all of the monsters and most of the character classes in the game.
As this is not really feasible at this time, I don't expect the developers of Battletech to even think about it.
This is more of a for your information post.
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Akalabeth
05/04/16 01:43 AM
108.180.183.124
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Dungeons and Dragons has done it at least 3 times in the history of the game. It is still around and making money. The basic, advanced, and 3.0 rule sets changed a majority, if not all of the monsters and most of the character classes in the game.
This is more of a for your information post.
Suggest you look into Pathfinder and what happened to D&D's market share between 3rd and 4th edition.
Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
TAG rules are in BMR.
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Didn't see anything about multiple lock ons on more then one unit..
Look again
BMR:R page 71
"Players firing homing missiles must select a specific TAG-equipped unit to act as a spotter on the turn of the missile's arrival"
page 72
"If the spotter fails to designate the target (the to-hit roll fails), the missile explodes harmlessly"
Missiles are assigned to spotters. Not to targets.
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ghostrider
05/05/16 01:12 AM
66.74.61.223
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So if your unit has 5 tag equipped units on the field, you would have to say they are locking on to unit a this turn, even though unit b and d have a lock on with the same frequency?
I would assume your entire force would have the same frequency, otherwise using the homing missiles would be useless to all but on specific unit.
And with that, if it is one frequency, how does it determine which target it goes after if say 2 different targets get a lock with the same frequency?
And this is dealing with unit b targeting one unit, while unit d targets a completely different enemy unit. Could be on a different board if you want to go that route.
It has come up in a few games.
Do you roll to see which ones gain a lock then assign the shot?
Or do you assign the shot, then roll?
The rules seem to be set with a single unit doing the targeting, and only one target is being targeted.
The cheap way out of this is shutting down the other locks. But that is like switching your fire to another unit when your named target was taken out by another unit in that round.
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Akalabeth
05/05/16 03:12 AM
108.180.183.124
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If a player has 5 missiles arriving, and he has three TAG units on the field, an Oscout, a Raven and a Zephyr.
A player might say "I assign two to the Oscout, two to the Raven, and one the Zephyr.
Each then makes their TAG attack roll. Let's say the Raven and Zephyr hits, but the Oscout misses.
What happens to the Ostscouts missiles? They're gone. Lost. The other three hit as normal.
You assign missiles to spotters. The spotters roll to spot. If they fail, the missiles are lost.
That's it. Nothing more. End of Story.
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ghostrider
05/05/16 12:24 PM
66.74.61.223
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That is how we played it, but there wasn't any thing in the books to say that. This is some of why things need to be explained in the books. Same person had said if the others didn't lock, the missiles would guide on the ones that did.
I know it sucks as that will increase the size of the books to cover stupid things like this that come up, but being on the same page is not as clear cut as you would think.
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Akalabeth
05/05/16 01:50 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
That is how we played it, but there wasn't any thing in the books to say that.
Yes there is. I quoted everything you need.
You ASSIGN missiles to spotters. If those spotters don't successfully designate, the missiles explode.
There's is nothing that says you can REASSIGN the missiles to new spotters if the previously chosen spotter fails.
"Players firing homing missiles must select a specific TAG-equipped unit to act as a spotter on the turn of the missile's"
Specific, as in ONE unit. Not multiple units.
The problem with many Battletech groups is that they read the rules a few times, and play with how they think they are rather than with how they're actually written. This is the case in the LAM Airmech conflict, and this is the case here as well. If the rule isn't in the book, it doesn't exist. It's a house rule.
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ghostrider
05/05/16 04:34 PM
66.74.61.223
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The definition provided sounds like a single unit is the only one to designate all incoming tag guided missiles, not splitting diferent volleys of missiles between multiple lock ons in that turn.
Your solution with the Ostscout, Raven and Zephyr goes against this. I agree with this solution, but it does not clear the argument up.
The problem you suggest is there, but most do not realize there is more then one way to interpret those very rules.
As stated with the landing of lams after flight. It is part of the flight rules, yet there is nothing stating you can NOT turn around or face any direction you want during the landing. That goes to the jumping rules, which does not really include lams in airmech mode.
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Akalabeth
05/05/16 05:04 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
The definition provided sounds like a single unit is the only one to designate all incoming tag guided missiles, not splitting diferent volleys of missiles between multiple lock ons in that turn.
"Players firing homing missiles must select a specific TAG-equipped unit to act as a spotter on the turn of the missile's arrival"
Notice how missile is singular, not plural.
Notice how it does NOT say "all missiles" as you have.
These are the small details which answer the questions.
One specific spotter on the turn that the missile arrives. There is no such thing as a "volley of missiles". Volley is not a rule term in Battletech. When you have a missile arrive, you assign a specific TAG-equipped spotter. If another missile is arriving, assign a new or the same spotter for it and so on.
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Your solution with the Ostscout, Raven and Zephyr goes against this. I agree with this solution, but it does not clear the argument up.
When you obfuscate the rules by introducing elements and ideas not supported by the text then of course you will get confused. If you want to understand a rule, read the rule. Don't discuss ideas that aren't in the rules like TAG frequency. Understanding the rule requires actually studying the text of the rule.
There is no such thing as "TAG frequency" in battletech rules. There are homing missiles. And friendly, TAG-equipped spotting units.
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
As stated with the landing of lams after flight. It is part of the flight rules, yet there is nothing stating you can NOT turn around or face any direction you want during the landing. That goes to the jumping rules, which does not really include lams in airmech mode.
The rules specifically state that it's treated like jumping except where noted. If it's not noted, then it doesn't exist. The absence of a restriction implies or confirms that there is no restriction and to suggest the opposite is to go against the wording of the rule and to introduce a house rule.
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ghostrider
05/05/16 08:46 PM
66.74.61.223
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Again, the statement of a unit being the spotter implies only ONE unit can target for all inbound missiles. I very much sounds like you can not target another unit with anything. Only one target is allowed. And anything that it missiles tag equipped can hit only that target.
Understanding a rule by studying it does not mean everyone sees it the way you want them to. And if there is no rule to solve the situation, does that mean all game play stops as there is no answer to such rules. It was stated people do not always want a house rule.
Now if there is not tag frequency in the game, what is to prevent the enemy from confusing your incoming tag guided missiles from using their tag device?
The rules imply you control it, but nothing is said about the enemy not being able to use them with their tag units.
So by the definition of if it's not stated or noted, then it doesn't exist. That suggests there are alot of holes that need to be plugged before you can actually play.
Maybe you can explain launching and landing in the flight rules for lams and tell me how that is not NOTED for alternative rules then the jump jets. As it is incomplete, it assumes jump jets, but the very idea of turn mode rules gets thrown out the window. It does not say use jump jet rules when landing. It is a noted exception.
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Akalabeth
05/05/16 09:11 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Now if there is not tag frequency in the game, what is to prevent the enemy from confusing your incoming tag guided missiles from using their tag device?
The rules imply you control it, but nothing is said about the enemy not being able to use them with their tag units.
The guy who fires the missile picks the spotter.
How many questions are you going to ask that have already been answered by one line of rules?
Quote:
Maybe you can explain launching and landing in the flight rules for lams and tell me how that is not NOTED for alternative rules then the jump jets. As it is incomplete, it assumes jump jets, but the very idea of turn mode rules gets thrown out the window. It does not say use jump jet rules when landing. It is a noted exception.
The noted exception is that you need to pay 2 MP to launch and land and you need to make a piloting roll.
Those are the ONLY exceptions. It doesn't say "don't use the rules".
Really dude, I'm not surprised you have so many issues because it's fairly apparent that you're not even discussing them. Half of the problems you have with the rulebook don't even exist in the rulebook. You're creating problems, asking for solutions, and then creating even more problems when the first solutions are resolved. I doubt you've read or played Battletech in years since you've continually failed to both quote and properly respresent the rules as written.
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ghostrider
05/05/16 11:37 PM
66.74.61.223
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It seems you assume that it defaults to another rule set, because that is the way your group read it.
Is the flight movement by a lam in airmech mode not covered in the rules?
Does it say you can spin 180 in air?
From the looks of it, you can turn without moving forwards the allotted amount by making a piloting roll. Without seeing those rules I would have to assume it is a single hex side, not 2 or 3.
The moment you declare you are in flight mode, they rules are clear on that. Launching and landing are part of the flight rules.
This supersedes jump jet rules for the ENITRE time you are in flight mode, INCLUDING landing. This means you do not default to other rules.
The advice you gave is read the rules. It seems that implies not filling in the blanks with other rules. Combining them because that is your interpretation does not make it so.
It makes sense, but is not how the rules are written.
But this should go back to the lam thread. Though the interpretation of rules does have a legitimacy through alot of threads.
Now with reading and studying the rules, does it actually say how to deal with multiple missiles and lock ons?
I believe it says one target per round. Nothing is stated for different launchers and different targeting units. Interpretation says one thing, but there is nothing there in the rules. Given one of the advisors have been 'banned' from using tags on everything, I am surprised this was not seen. Maybe they only used one launcher per round. I don't know.
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GiovanniBlasini
05/06/16 12:25 AM
172.56.16.75
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Since we're all talking about LAM rules again, could you clarify which set of rules you're discussing?
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Akalabeth
05/06/16 02:31 AM
64.251.81.66
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Since ghostrider doesn't own any Battletech products printed this millenium, I was discussing THB and BMR:R
What he's discussing who knows. Even when discussing BMR TAG rules he introduces ideas which have no bearing on the game. What he seems to be attempting to do is that because his position on the THB rulebook is indefensible, he's instead appealing to the IOps rules, which he doesn't own and hasn't read.
So he's probably discussing THB rules, mixed with his own ideas and reinforced by what he guesses the IOps rules are.
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ghostrider
05/06/16 12:03 PM
66.74.61.223
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The lam thing dealt with being able to land facing any direction while in flight mode. The question was originally, did they fix this, as it violates flying backwards, and with them saying you can not turn 180 degrees while in flight mode, why should it be allowed upon landing.
It is implied to use jump jet rules this point, but it contradicts the flight rules.
the current discussing deals with the tag and multiple shots arriving and multiple lock ons. It was suggested if it isn't printed, then it is house rules, but yet has an idea that it is canon that you can have multiple lock ons to different units from different tag carrying units, yet the only thing the rules says implies one incoming tag equipped missiles and one tag unit working.
I asked if the new rules dealt with this, and so far the answer is no. A logical response to this has been given, and frankly used long before coming to this board, but it does not make it canon, unless printed.
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GiovanniBlasini
05/06/16 12:48 PM
75.80.182.44
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Out of curiosity, have you ever seen a V-22 Osprey, AV-8 Harrier or VTOL version of the F-35 Lightning II (that's the B, right?) do a vertical landing or maneuver when in VTOL flight at low altitude?
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Akalabeth
05/06/16 02:45 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I asked if the new rules dealt with this, and so far the answer is no. A logical response to this has been given, and frankly used long before coming to this board, but it does not make it canon, unless printed.
Yeah looking at Tac Ops, the new rules have dealt with the question and have changed other things as well. It's pretty cool. I re-learned a few things I had forgotten when I checked it out.
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ghostrider
05/06/16 08:27 PM
66.74.61.223
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The craft that are turning while hovering. How long do they take?
10 seconds with forward motion to dead stop to landing?
I have seen them turn while hovering. They take some time to do so, and they are already hovering, not slowing down to make the turn, nor are the landing. Also, they are not doing so on anything but an open flat area without any obstructions to worry about.
Well one issue. They were close to the edge of the air craft carrier they were showing it being done.
And that is not moving other parts like arms and legs to get a shot off on the enemy. When targeting, they use things that autotrack. without major movement of extremities.
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ghostrider
05/08/16 01:25 AM
66.74.61.223
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What page in tac ops is this supposedly at?
I had 3 people tell me it has not been dealt.
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GiovanniBlasini
05/08/16 02:51 AM
75.80.182.44
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
What page in tac ops is this supposedly at?
I had 3 people tell me it has not been dealt.
What page in Tac Ops is what supposedly dealt with?
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Akalabeth
05/08/16 03:24 AM
108.180.183.124
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
What page in tac ops is this supposedly at?
I had 3 people tell me it has not been dealt.
Artillery munitions.
You know, the exact same place you found the rules in BMR
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ghostrider
05/08/16 12:49 PM
66.74.61.223
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Misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the lam question, not the multiple tag designator/target question.
My mistake. I should have asked for clarification first.
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Karagin
05/08/16 04:45 PM
61.40.222.5
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Now there is a role for LAMs...Artillery spotter, slap some TAGs on the things and send them out. Or hell put a C3 Slave unit on them and go from there, yep good ideas for LAMs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/08/16 07:09 PM
66.74.61.223
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The is evil, Karagin. Now you just made those that love lams have to come up with versions that do this, just to see how nasty they can be.
Full speed flight mode with targeting something. And if I recall, the incoming ordinance hits from the side the lam is on. Just back shots take on a whole new meaning.
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ghostrider
05/22/16 11:47 PM
66.74.61.223
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Question.
On energy weapons, is the heat build up in them from charging the weapon, or the actually firing of the weapons?
It is my understanding that it is holding the charge in them that causes the heat, and releasing the energy does nothing but stop the heat build up.
I understand missiles and ballistics heating up only when fired.
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Karagin
05/23/16 12:47 AM
61.40.222.5
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Both makes sense.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/23/16 01:45 AM
66.74.61.223
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I remember one of the adventure packs (I believe Mckinnons raiders) had a marauder with an ml that when you went to fire it, you need to make a roll. If it failed to fire, it would still cause heat but no damage.
I need to know if it is charging or firing energy weapons that causes the heat.
The flamer would cause firing. Ok. That one I can understand. Just thought about it.
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Karagin
05/23/16 06:39 AM
61.40.222.5
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Those quirks are things I believe they are trying to bring back with the silliness they have now when you see mechs or vehicles with quirks listed in the TROs...rather have the quirks that cause you to actually have to worry about them vs the ability to ignore them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/23/16 11:23 AM
66.74.61.223
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Mckinnons raiders was put out back in the 80's. I think it was one of the first out, not a new one. My roommate had it, and I couldn't get a copy before economics showed up at my door.
I would have to look thru others, as I think a few had bad repair quirks that increased heat if the roll failed.
Other then that, I have not seen if firing a ppc or large laser builds the heat or if it is just charging the weapon.
Cray. Do you have any information on this?
Or is there nothing official about this?
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Cray
05/24/16 05:47 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Question.
On energy weapons, is the heat build up in them from charging the weapon, or the actually firing of the weapons?
Both. 
The weapons do not charge with 100% efficiency, so the act of generating and sending power to the weapon creates waste heat. A combustion engine is only (typically) about 33% efficient, so for every 1 watt it sends to a weapon it will be blowing 2 watts of waste heat out its radiator and tailpipe.
Further, the energy emission mechanisms are not 100% efficient. For example, current industrial lasers are only 1-10% efficient, so for every 1000 watts they're pumping into a welding target their cooling systems are dealing with 10,000 to 100,000 watts of waste heat.
Quote:
It is my understanding that it is holding the charge in them that causes the heat, and releasing the energy does nothing but stop the heat build up.
Nope. Capacitors release little waste heat while holding a charge unless something goes badly wrong, in which case they tend explode.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
05/24/16 10:15 PM
66.74.61.223
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Ok. This was important as the rules that weapons are powered unless otherwise stated would have very far reaching problems.
If it was just charging, someone using a 4 erppc warhawk just walking in the first round without powering down getting into range of a shot would build 20 heat on the first round, risking an ammo explosion, to shutting down on the next round if it survived.
Also calls into question ppc capacitors. If they get charged and not use in the next round, do they still heat up the unit?
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Drasnighta
05/24/16 10:29 PM
173.183.129.245
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Yes.
Its in their rules.
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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ghostrider
05/25/16 05:55 PM
66.74.61.223
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The only disadvantages are that Streak launchers are incompatible with other missile target acquisition technologies such as the Artemis IV FCS and Narc Missile Beacon, their specialized ammunition is much more expensive, and some users are willing to accept partial hits rather than not be able to fire on demand.[2]
2.↑ Jump up to: 2.0 2.1 Technical Readout: 3050, p. "Streak Short-Range Missiles"
Both of these statements are in the wiki. The newer publications of the 3050 do not have this section in it, and the photographed copy I have does not explain the partial hits. To my knowledge there is nothing in the current rules suggesting you can turn off the streak abilities in the launcher and ammunition.
I want to say this is where we had gotten the ecm information, but it isn't said in this either.
Just seen this and wanted to see if anyone had some clarification to this.
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ghostrider
05/25/16 06:00 PM
66.74.61.223
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second question. Does the streak system benefit from a c3 connection?
This is more important now that they have streak lrms.
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happyguy49
05/25/16 08:15 PM
98.30.242.159
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
second question. Does the streak system benefit from a c3 connection?
This is more important now that they have streak lrms.
It does. C3 changes the range bracket to whatever the distance to the closest networked friendly unit is, for ANY weapon (including TAG even). Even if you are shooting at a hex.
Lets say you have the longest range non-artillery weapon in the game, a set of ELRM 20s... and you're shooting at a target exactly 38 hexes away. But you have a networked spotter unit only a couple hexes away from the target, then you get short-range to hit numbers! C3 is awesome.
The minimum range modifiers apply only in regards to the firing unit, not the closest networked unit (the spotter). Spotting is done automatically by the C3 system, it doesn't require the spotting unit to make any rolls of its own; and the spotting unit has to be shut down or destroyed (or have its C3 to be critted) to make it stop spotting. Pilot unconscious, etc. doesn't affect the C3.
A weapon with damage that varies by range, (ex: Snub-nose PPC, Heavy Gauss, Variable Speed Pulse Lasers, etc.) still has the damage affected per the distance to the firing unit, not the spotter.
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ghostrider
05/25/16 09:18 PM
66.74.61.223
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The idea that a unit can spot for idf, using a c3, and using the iatm came up.
I know it says the streak system does not work with idf, but a clarification of this rule needs to be made.
Since it is possible the c3 will allow the unit to fire on something that isn't in sight (idf over a mountain), but the c3 also allows streak abilities with it in normal mode, is the rule set for just the launchers targeting system?
Or would the c3 override this?
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Retry
05/26/16 12:12 AM
68.103.19.152
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The firing unit is still firing over a mountain even if some guy with a fancy computer on the other side is watching the enemy meet with a fiery death. IDF is still IDF, so it's safe to say that the Streak function would not function.
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Cray
05/26/16 05:54 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Also calls into question ppc capacitors. If they get charged and not use in the next round, do they still heat up the unit?
p. 337 Tactical Operations: "Instead of firing a PPC as normal, the pilot may choose to charge the PPC Capacitor, building up 5 points of heat. This charge can be held as long as needed, during which time the charged Capacitor continues to generate 5 points of heat."
PPC capacitors don't hold a charge for long, so you have to keep charging them and generating that heat.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
05/26/16 07:43 PM
66.74.61.223
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So when did they allow streak units to be shut off for idf mode?
Didn't want to continue the diversion of the iatm carrier, so figured here would be a good place to try to move the conversation.
As I said there, before coming back to this one, it was implied the streak missiles were direct fire weapons.
Then the lrm version came out. And it was not allowed to fire in idf mode.
I guess it is easier to change the rules then coming out with a new weapon system.
Which leads me to ask.
Is the gyroscopic rounds for an ac going to allow it to fire longer for longer ranges or in idf mode?
Is there ever going to be a break for ICE's?
They have come up with lighter materials that will handle the weight of a 100 ton mech jumping and taking a beating in combat, but can't find a material that would take the abuse of the ice?
Again, this is really looking like only some things will ever be advanced, since logic doesn't apply.
And as it was asked before. Why would streaks benefit from c3 systems?
I know the c3 says it helps targeting systems better, but yet it is implied the streak uses a unique system. Logic again, I know, but that should mean only that targeting should be used for the streaks.
Since the Streak LRM requires line of sight to lock on to a target it also lost the ability to make indirect fire attacks.
Direct from the wiki. The iatm violates this for their new system.
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happyguy49
05/27/16 01:35 AM
98.30.242.159
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Streak systems are direct fire... iATM's act as Streak systems most of the time, unless you want to use them for indirect fire. In which case they are no longer Streak, but you use the regular indirect-fire rules. An aside, with any Streak launcher, you can still fire your Streak systems even into an Angel ECM area, they just lose their streak bonus. You must then roll for the number of missiles that hit as if they were a regular LRM or SRM system.
What do you mean a "break" for ICEs? You mean, a lighter ICE? There is one. Fuel Cell. Works fine!
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Fuel_Cell
Streaks benefit from C3 because ALL weapons benefit from closer more accurate target info (telemetry). This improves the chance of a lock (in the game, this is the lower to-hit number from the shorter range bracket made possible by the closer lance/point mate unit).
I agree that if a gunner wished to do so, they should be able to fire their Streak LRM indirectly, as one can with the iATM.
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ghostrider
05/27/16 02:16 AM
66.74.61.223
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Total Warfare updated the rules to specify that Pulse Lasers (including Variable Speed Pulse Lasers and X-Pulse Lasers) as well as multi-shot firing autocannon cannot aim their fire, unless the affected autocannon are fired in single shot mode. In addition, an LB-X autocannon only receives the benefits if it is firing solid rounds instead of cluster ammunition.
Looking up to see if the targeting computer is compatible with the streak system and ran across this. How many people actually knew the cluster rounds did not work with the tc, nor did multi fire canons shooting more then one shot?
I do believe some units need reworking, and a few games would NOT have come out the way they did.
As for the fuel cell, that is a cheap way out. Knowing they use aluminum block with steel sleeves in engines now a days to lighten the engines, I find it hard to believe with all the high tech alloys they have, like composite endosteel, they could not make an engine lighter. Well other then the developers don't want it. But this is old news.
I am not saying the iatm is a bad thing, but again consistency has gone out the window for streaks.
The only saving grace is the missiles are not the same size as the streaks are, so I can live with them being upgraded. They look to be about double the size of a normal lrm round. Basically 60 missiles per ton, as opposed to the 100 for srm, and 120 for lrm.
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Akalabeth
05/27/16 03:20 PM
64.251.81.66
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iATMs aren't Streaks, they're iATMs.
Having the same ability doesn't make them the same technology.
Compare Artemis IV to Narc. Same result. Different application.
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ghostrider
05/28/16 09:42 AM
66.74.61.223
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Triple strength myomers.
The thought came up about these items that comes with a question.
If the myomers along with engine size determines a mechs movement, would something that is 'triple strength' mean it would move faster?
Maybe not 3 times, but a larger movement bonus?
I would think it would, and the bonus should be the faster the unit already is, the less bonus it would get.
I know the current version only works when heated, and only add 1 to movement.
This sounds weak. Maybe the should have called it enhanced myomers, not triple strength.
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Akalabeth
05/28/16 04:31 PM
108.180.183.124
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Triple Strength sounds cooler
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GiovanniBlasini
05/30/16 04:52 PM
172.56.16.151
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But this one goes to 11.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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ghostrider
05/30/16 09:13 PM
66.74.61.223
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So how does the iatm actually function using the streak technology?
It is understandable that the artemis system works alot like tag, and the narc bring the missiles to the signal it puts out, which should destroy the beacon on the first round of missiles hits. Also there should be more hits in the area the actual laser/beacon is at, verses a general hit on the target, but lets just go with the iatm function for now.
Which makes me wonder why you could not just arm all missiles in a unit to use the same frequency of the artemis designator. And to expand that, a c3 system?
Also why would the beam system of the artemis not hit like the advanced radar system on a streak? It should do the same things, riding the beam in, or as they suggest, correct the missiles in flight.
Other then the developers don't want it that way, these systems use the same principles, to do the same thing, yet different results.
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happyguy49
06/03/16 08:21 AM
98.30.242.159
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Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
Triple Strength sounds cooler
Here's a thought.. maybe they ONCE were triple strength, the original version, the one that EXPLODED when exposed to a specific gas. The current version is double strength, and doesn't explode.
In pre-Clan invasion fluff the Davions use this bizarre trick against House Liao, leaking TSM tech to them, (but not the knowledge of the critical vulnerability.) This is an American-CIA level stunt lol!
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ghostrider
06/03/16 11:31 AM
66.74.61.223
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Didn't think about that, since the new version also needs to be heated to work.
If you read the Warrior trilogy, they actually deal with the fourth succession war. I think it was an interesting series, though some of the things in there made me cringe with the issues of rules. Using energy transmission from the ground power plants to power the ship yards on the one world, then using them to knock out incoming dropships. Too bad the rules didn't support things like that. But still entertaining reading.
The reason it was brought up with the little movement enhancement it provides. Having supposed 3 times the power should give you some extra movement above the single point it does. I do understand without extra speed in contracting, it would not do much for the faster mechs, like a spider. But the 2/3 and 3/5 units should see more speed.
And cargo mechs would definitely benefit from them. Move more cargo per run would cut costs at most spaceports. Yeah, they addressed it with keeping it from the market to try and fix the gas issue.
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ghostrider
06/03/16 06:31 PM
66.74.61.223
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Does the actual case unit get destroyed when an ammo explosion occurs?
Or does it survive with the doors being the only victim during this process?
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Akalabeth
06/03/16 07:08 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
happyguy49 writes:
Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
Triple Strength sounds cooler
Here's a thought.. maybe they ONCE were triple strength, the original version, the one that EXPLODED when exposed to a specific gas. The current version is double strength, and doesn't explode.
In pre-Clan invasion fluff the Davions use this bizarre trick against House Liao, leaking TSM tech to them, (but not the knowledge of the critical vulnerability.) This is an American-CIA level stunt lol!
Yeah that's in the warrior trilogy.
It's also possible that triple strength doesn't translate to triple power. It's not a 1:1 ratio of power to output, machines lose efficiency. A warship for example, has very different fuel efficiencies when moving at flank or at cruising.
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Cray
06/05/16 11:55 AM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Using energy transmission from the ground power plants to power the ship yards on the one world, then using them to knock out incoming dropships. Too bad the rules didn't support things like that. But still entertaining reading.
See Tactical Operations' microwave power transmission equipment.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
06/05/16 02:08 PM
66.74.61.223
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Time frame there. Tactical operations came out later, and still don't have the book.
But while on the subject.
Did they do anything with cranking back the torsos to give the arms a wider firing arc?
Did they get rid of the stealth skill? I have not seen anyone other then Morgan Kell have it since, damn can't remember the combine nemesis he had's name died.
It might make some good optional rules for being around shipyards to risk damage during combat from going into a beam.
And unless they changed it, fighters change efficiencies when at flank speed over cruising speed. They use 2 fuel points for overthrust. Been so long since I dealt with it, not sure if dropships follow the same rules. I would think they do.
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ghostrider
06/16/16 01:53 AM
66.74.61.223
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The thought came to me about apcs moving troops, but haven't seen any with extra storage for ammunition the troops would use.
I know the game doesn't really deal with infantry running out of ammo, so it gets over looked.
Has anyone thought of making an apc design that deals with this? I know most would think an ammo carrier would be the idea, though not sure if a different unit from the apc would be a good idea. It would be targeted just for not looking like the apc.
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ghostrider
06/20/16 05:10 PM
66.74.61.223
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thought came to me and I thought I would find out if there is any basis for it.
What would people think about an internal structure that weighed more then normal, but had a better strength to it, and maybe allowed more armor to be added to the mech frame?
Almost like hardened armor but being a structure material.
It might allow 3 points of armor instead of 2 per structure, and weigh say 1.2 times the normal skeleton.
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Akalabeth
06/20/16 07:38 PM
64.251.81.66
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There's already a Hardened Armor Equivalent for Internal Structure:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Reinforced_Structure
Modular Armor can increase the armour above normal in a given location.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Modular_Armor
Having internal structure mount being capable of mounting more armour doesn't really make any sense. Particularly if mounting limitations have to do with surface area. Having a stronger skeleton doesn't enable more armour to be mounted. Only a bigger skeleton, which would be a bigger mech. If you want more points than normal just use Hardened Armor.
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ghostrider
06/21/16 12:54 AM
66.74.61.223
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Thickness of armor comes into effect.
Otherwise, how would you explain ferrous fiber and hardened armor?
Reinforce adds to critical protection and doubles internal structure. For some units the double weight of the structure isn't worth the risk. For some, ie missile boats, it may well be worth it.
Now surface area is WHY armor has so little protection per ton on things like warships. Too much area for the ton of armor to try and protect.
Also, this would not throw off a mechs balance like the modular armor does.
Having internal structure mount being capable of mounting more armor doesn't really make any sense.
Why do vehicles do so?
I had thought about giving the heavy structure a bonus for physicals, like +1 for light, 2 for medium, 3 for heavy and 4 for assault. Kind of like using lead in a pipe over a normal pipe.
Had also thought about gaining an extra critical spot using it, but that might be too far.
Now I would like to know where it says a stronger skeleton doesn't enable more armor.
And a thought about hardened armor and modular armor. Isn't that adding more points to the structure?
You can double the armor with hardened which is doing what was said makes no sense. Modular adds 10 points.
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Akalabeth
06/21/16 01:51 PM
64.251.81.66
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Hardened armor isn't thicker. It's harder. The name should be a give away
Ferro armour takes up critical space. It's bulkier
Battlemechs aren't vehicles.
Another problem with the idea is that your structure would invalidate existing rulesheets because it would require the sheet to have more armour dots than it would currently, 50% more .You'll notice that Hardended Armor and Hardened Structure are designed with that limitation in mind. They don't change the number of dots, merely how they behave.
It doesn't say anywhere that surface area is a limitation of mounting armour, it's simply the pattern. There's bulky armour, there's hardened armour, but there's no rules or mechanic for layering on extra armour outside of modular armour, and layering on extra regular armour is what your item would be designed to do.
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ghostrider
06/21/16 02:15 PM
66.74.61.223
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You misunderstand the concept. It would not add to extra internal slots to be hit in the original idea. Even the idea of an extra space for items would not really affect the sheets. Simple have it for something that does not affect the unit, like maybe case for innersphere mechs.
Ferro armor takes up critical space and is bulkier. Is that not along the lines of thicker?
This would suggest they went internal instead of external for the additional armor.
The idea with the heavy internals is that there is some extra space for securing armor to the structure, would allow thicker armor to be secured to it.
This would be based on the concept that the connections for armor on normal structure can only support so much armor. Instead of a single 2 inch piece of frame, you might have two 1 1/2 inch pieces of frame to connect to. Granted taking some extra internals might be needed.
Along these lines, there would be weak points in armor where the structure doesn't reinforce the armor in a normal frame. Using a skyscraper frame as an example. The main supports are not every 16 inches like a house is but full floors, I want to say over 8 feet from each other, but not sure on this.
The heavy frame would have some extra pieces to go in between.
As for the argument of not fitting in with the model of the game most of the new tech doesn't. Before they changed the rules, the only place you could have double the armor points on a mech was the head. Now hardened allows twice as much on a mech, and modular allows an extra 10 points in one section. This did not follow that train of thought.
Nor did others. The gauss rifle destroy the heat/range/damage concepts of weapons that came before. Hell the iatm combines alot of things into one unit. That goes against the doctrine as well.
The only difference is, I am not part of the design crew.
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Akalabeth
06/21/16 02:36 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
Even the idea of an extra space for items would not really affect the sheets.
Quote:
It might allow 3 points of armor instead of 2 per structure, and weigh say 1.2 times the normal skeleton.
This requires changes to the record sheet. Because again, your idea would allow battlemechs to carry up to 50% more armour points. Which would also require that the armour dots be resized because right now in some locations they're maxed out space wise for the blank (ie 100 ton) record sheet.
If you've changed your idea to instead enhance physicals and not allow extra armour then obviously that would not apply. But any item that allows additional armour points would require changing the sheets.
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ghostrider
06/21/16 11:15 PM
66.74.61.223
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I did overlook max armor one the big boys. For some stupid reason, I was thinking lights and mediums being the ones to use this. Like surviving a gauss slug on a 20 tonner.
The idea of the extra physicals was in addition to the rest of the idea.
As for additional armor points, doesn't modular armor do the same thing?
Modular Armor adds ten points of standard armor protection to a unit in a particular location.
I would think this would require changing the sheets.
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ghostrider
06/22/16 12:48 AM
66.74.61.223
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You suggested you have to change the sheets, but you could run the armor like hardened for the extra points. If you have 6 points above the max armor in that area, you note +6 and half fill the armor points for those as you take damage, then revert to full fills after you do the 6 points of damage to fill the armor damage from the extra. No need to redo the entire sheets.
I suspect they do something like that with the modular armor.
As for the idea of crit hiding, I would think it would be limited to multi critical units, so say a double sink could hide a crit in the 'phantom' area. Or say a normal ppc would be marked as 2 crits with the third hidden by the structure. Maybe limit it to specific body parts, such as torsos only, or maybe limbs.
These are ideas for it. Not the final draft, as some might be more valid then others.
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Akalabeth
06/22/16 04:07 PM
64.251.81.66
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Yeah I don't know modular armour works offhand either.
Just something to consider when you're designing your equipment.
Generally structural equipment doesn't impact other equipment. So having the structure affect the armor will be more complicated than the stuff already in the game. You might want to limit it to just one or two effects. Though some of the newer stuff is already more complicated. Heavy Armour in particular which has about 4 different rules/effects.
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ghostrider
06/22/16 04:33 PM
66.74.61.223
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This is not the end result. It was just seeing if any others think it might be something worth exploring, expanding, or burying as an idea.
If you look at the iatm system, it has streak, idf, as well as multiple ammunition types that change range and damage.
So combining things isn't out of the question anymore.
Hell, it could be said to be reinforced endosteel composite.
As alot of things posted, they were put up to get input from others.
The options are there to see what, if any, would be something to run with.
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Akalabeth
06/22/16 04:56 PM
64.251.81.66
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I know it's not the end result, that's why I'm giving you feedback. Pointing out things you need to consider. Like the question of how you will represent extra armour on the sheet, something you admitted to not have considered for larger units. And also pointing out that it's a bit complicated.
How complicated do you want it? What niche in the construction system will it fill? How does the cost or abilities compare to other equipment with the same or similar effects? All questions to consider.
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Cray
06/22/16 05:41 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
All questions to consider.
Yes, yes. Very good. No arguing, just discussing and a healthy review of an idea. This moderator is happy with the current turn of conversation.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
06/23/16 12:41 AM
66.74.61.223
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If you print your own sheets, simply coloring the spots you would use to represent the extra armor like hardened armor to represent the spots above the normal max. Half fill per point of damage, then when you get to normal spots, fill them completely as normal.
It was suggested a little earlier that you could just write +(number) above/beside the areas that are above max and use that to show the points.
Do we have an example of the modular armor sheet available for all to see how they did that?
Honestly, any new item causes complications with the system. Some more then others.
All advanced weapons caused issues when the came out as well as armor and electronics and such.
You could make up several new forms of structure and use one advantage on each. The extra weight verse reduced weight needs something to make it more appealing.
And just to make the moderator unhappy..
you ^(&$(@#)@$)%*@#)$&@#&$)@(*)(&%*#%(*&)#(%*&
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ghostrider
09/03/16 03:56 AM
66.74.61.223
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Ok. New information has come to light about the record sheets having issues with the new equipment.
The compact engine as well as the small cockpit would require different sheets as they open up crits that the sheets do not have available.
Just something to show even the game has things that change the sheets.
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ghostrider
09/05/16 02:13 AM
66.74.61.223
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Wouldn't a mech get knocked down if hit by an artillery round?
The standard tube shots do damage to target hex, as well as those adjacent to them as well.
The sheer force of having 90 meters of damaging force hit you, should be more then enough to take even a quad off it's feet.
That is over 180 feet from one end to the other, with max force in the center.
And the units don't block the damage on the opposite side from where they got hit.
Even the lowly thumper doing 5/2 damage means 45 meters away would still be hit with 2 damage.
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CarcerKango
09/05/16 10:15 AM
73.4.87.73
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Wouldn't a mech get knocked down if hit by an artillery round?
The standard tube shots do damage to target hex, as well as those adjacent to them as well.
The sheer force of having 90 meters of damaging force hit you, should be more then enough to take even a quad off it's feet.
That is over 180 feet from one end to the other, with max force in the center.
And the units don't block the damage on the opposite side from where they got hit.
Even the lowly thumper doing 5/2 damage means 45 meters away would still be hit with 2 damage.
Well, remember that it's not necessarily all the actual blast radius. The outer edges of the affected hexes could just be the danger zone for shrapnel or whatever, which could be why you get the damage dropoff instead of consistent impact damage throughout. You don't have to be caught in the blast to suffer from it :P
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ghostrider
09/05/16 11:42 AM
66.74.61.223
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It was about being at ground zero, not the adjacent hexes.
The outer edges was to emphasize just how much force might be in the blast.
And depending on the direction you are hit from would make it even more likely to bite the dust. Leaning forward for a run only to have it hit from the rear... But I originally thought of just standing there being hit. Granted the thumper isn't the same as the long tom but should be enough to dump you on your **** even in a 100 ton mech.
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happyguy49
09/05/16 07:01 PM
98.30.242.159
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If a mech is at 'ground zero' of a Sniper or Long Tom regular hit, or even one hex away from a Long Tom hit, it most definitely COULD get knocked down, as it will take 20 or 30 points of damage and must make a PSR to avoid falling. But it wouldn't be a default result; these are big huge walking tanks that are less likely to be knocked down by a shockwave than soft meatbags.
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ghostrider
10/20/16 12:54 AM
66.74.61.223
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The question of how hardened armor affects control of a unit made me think of a few more questions.
The suspension should be better for heavier vehicles, so wouldn't a heavy vehicle with a max speed of say 30 kph, should not lean nearly as much as say a 10 ton unit going 100+ kph doing the same turn?
With that in mind, wouldn't speed be a major factor in when a unit needs a drive roll or the penalty of doing so?
The cruise/flank speed itself doesn't seem enough to determine this.
A well designed unit should have the armored plating far enough away from the motive system to allow full range of motion without being interfered with.
This does NOT suggest the end result is made to work well, verse be as cheap to make as they can and still work.
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ghostrider
12/07/16 11:52 PM
66.74.61.223
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The idea of having piloting rolls for damage taken based on the units weight came up in a conversation.
It was asked after seeing the tag your it mech.
Since 20 points of damage to that unit basically kills it, yet for an atlas, it is just over a single ton, or under 2% of the body weight, why would both suffer the same effects? Even surviving hits in a lighter mech, they are effected the same.
Should the damage piloting roll be based on the units weight, along with, but not just how much damage it takes?
That would mean a 20 ton mech taking say a large laser or even medium laser hit might fall over from the damage done, as the gyro doesn't compensate for the weight loss, while a banshee would just shrug it off.
I would think the gyro would be set for what the unit is designed to deal with, and would be thrown off if that is greatly changed. As the total weight would be the key here, it sounds like the generic damage roll is off some.
Yes, I understand the 20 points was a fast generic fix for it. But the game has evolved beyond that.
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happyguy49
12/08/16 05:18 AM
72.49.163.237
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There aren't any modifications to Pilot Skill Rolls based on unit weight that I am aware of, but there are rules in the new books that make it even harder to avoid falling if you've taken even more damage. From my Tac Ops PDF page 23
"For every 20 Damage Points a unit takes, it receives a +1 modifier. For example, a unit that takes 40 to 59 Damage Points receives a +2 modifier, a unit that takes 60 to 79 Damage Points receives a +3 modifier, and so on."
(If you start using many or all of the new optional rules it has the potential to make your home game a LOT more complicated; beware.)
Edited by happyguy49 (12/08/16 05:44 AM)
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ghostrider
06/13/17 02:07 AM
66.74.61.223
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Not sure if they changed this in the newer rules, but an IS xl engine is destroyed with 3 hits?
I am talking about salvaging it, not wiether it removes the mech from the game. I know vehicles are removed after one hit, but not sure if that destroys the engine in salvage as well.
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ghostrider
08/18/17 02:04 AM
66.74.61.223
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Had a few questions come up, and figured someone here would have an answer.
Does a mechs gyro consist of spinning wheels?
If so, do they stop when the mech is powered down?
I thought about it as a dropship the unit was in crashed, and several mechs were prone or in an odd position when they were started.
We did not know if the gyros would say the odd position was upright, or if you had to shut down and restart once they were upright.
We used penalties in the piloting of the mechs when the enemy showed up, as few wanted to shut down the mechs to reset the gyros. This also meant movement was nerfed, as trying to keep a mech upright, when it says you are on your front because it started on it's back is difficult to deal with.
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phobos101
08/21/17 08:19 AM
27.33.30.232
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Hello, First post here, but I think I can weigh in on your Gyro question, Ghostrider, as I have some experience working on ship gyros in real life.
So From the Battletech Tech manual, the Battlemech Gyro has two parts.
The first part is the balance sensor. This could be a spinning mass (unlikely, as these are looking pretty dated in 2017), laser ring, or a few other types. Generally if a large, military grade gyro, such as those used in ships has been off for a while, they will need to be calibrated, which includes manually inputting which way is north, which way is up, and giving it time to settle. this can take anywhere from a half hour to a few hours. I think this would be especially true after space travel, when the gyro would be calibrated for another planet's conditions, and has probably been powered down for an extended period of time.
The second part is the force generating mechanism. This is described as consisting of a set of spinning flywheels, which are braked in order to obtain what Newton would call an "equal or opposite reaction" to maintain the Mech's balance. Importantly, in order to work properly, this reaction wheel system requires accurate input from the balance sensor. This means that if the Techs and pilots have not had time to follow the complete start up procedure, or have been forced to input some less than perfect parameters in order to get moving before the arrival of enemies, then yes, the Mech's ability to move and balance may be negatively affected, at least until Techs have time to get the Mech on level ground, give it an accurate bearing for true north, and give the electronics time to warm up and settle.
I hope this sheds some light on the matter.
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ghostrider
06/17/18 03:08 AM
66.74.61.223
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Can some explain to me why fusion engine vehicles need shielding?
Supposedly, there is no radiation from the engine itself.
The engine itself would be shielded in the first place. Otherwise, mechs would be pumping out emissions while being paraded in towns around the IS.
Well something other then the developers put it in to make vehicles less of a threat.
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ghostrider
06/17/18 10:20 PM
66.74.61.223
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Another question came up.
What does a lithium battery for jumpships weigh?
The discussion on how they install them was brought up, but more interesting is where do the jumpships get the weight to install what is thought to be a multi ton battery system. A warship can removed a few weapons, but without a redesign of jumpships, there isn't much other then losing docking collars that would explain how it is done.
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Retry
06/18/18 12:53 AM
174.70.184.145
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L-F batteries weigh 1% of the jumpship's/warship's mass.
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ghostrider
06/18/18 01:49 AM
66.74.61.223
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So what do they give up to compensate for the extra weight?
The idea of refitting the jumpships already in operation came up, and we are having issues figuring it out.
Station keeping thrusters would have to be updated.
Which need to be asked.
Did they redesign the jumpships to have the L-F batteries on them if the customer wants them?
I will assume they would still build the old models no matter what. The price being the reason as commercial interests do not need to double jump.
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ghostrider
06/22/18 01:31 PM
66.74.61.223
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The question of nukes being used against ships is up, and the idea of them being used against spacestations came up in a conversation outside of this board.
As nukes only do one capital point, how effective are they against those very stations?
The stories of the history of the IS, including the League, suggested nukes were used to wipe out most space stations, including habitats. This sounds a bit contradicting.
The only reason we could think of at this time was it sounded cooler then using other weapons.
It would have been easier to use the other missiles to destroy those stations, and even same ammo by using the energy naval weapons.
Maybe someone could shed some light on this.
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ghostrider
07/29/18 12:52 AM
66.74.61.223
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The question of Dragoons using battle armor brought up the question of the dragoons making mechs. They had access to clan specs, so did they use clan tech when making them?
If so, where did they get it built?
Besides Blackwell, I don't know of any other manufacturing facilities they had to make the higher tech stuff. Even keeping their units up to speed would require clan parts, and the clans themselves would be unlikely to supply them with any.
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ghostrider
09/03/18 12:55 AM
66.74.61.223
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Are there any rules to deal with taking a pair of stations, like 2 Olympus stations and joining them together to create a much larger one, using the station keepers of both to keep it in position?
I was thinking an over/under configuration, not end to end. Would make it less work trying to move things around. Add on armor to seal the two together.
The idea of the jumpship with dropships permanently attached got me thinking about this.
I am going to rule out warships that lack the main thrusters, and can't replace them. Though a derelict one, may well be something to build a factory in. Maybe jury rig something to keep it in position.
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Requiem
09/03/18 04:45 AM
58.175.193.140
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Connecting to Olympus Recharge Stations together?
From an engineering point of view I would say it is possible, but from a rule book point of view probably not. (though don’t quote me on that as I do not think there are any rules even considered for such a project – so house Rules?)
If attempted you must first make sure the distance between the two is sufficient so as to ensure their sails do not get tangled when deployed
Second will the Pressurized Repair Bays be compromised when they are ‘attached’?
Third, will you require a quick release system at both ends of the connecting “tower” between the two in the event of an ‘emergency’?
Fourth, regarding the ‘tower between the two, will it have a life support / stabilizing thrusters / engine between the two to ensure its survival in the event both stations abandon the connecting “tower”.
Fifth, will there be a connecting power line between the two?
Sixth, the reason why the engineers would be creating such “tower” – is this for a special R&D project a Naval Grade Energy weapon that will require a tremendous amount of power and it is just cheaper to build and test it this way first before attempting to place this into a warship?
Thus the use of connecting the two ‘Recharge Stations’ together, for the purpose of powering the weapon system?
As for having a factory attached why not look at attaching your Olympus to a Small / Large Habitat Space Station as the factory.
Is this to become a Hughes Class Space Station?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/03/18 12:41 PM
66.74.61.223
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It was basically thought to create a larger area for working in, as it would become a permanent joining, including a larger pressurized bay to work in.
Yeah, it would take longer and be more difficult they just tethering off the two of them.
The sail is one of the things that might need to be custom made. One might be more then enough to run the station, but it may cause stress as one set of thrusters would have to work consistently to avoid the station from spinning due to gravity or solar winds, depending on the position. Maybe making the sail connect to both tie down points, but the cost might be too much, if it could be done.
The thought came about as there are a lot of heavily damaged stations in the IS, with some being nothing more then spare parts if that. And with the jumpship idea presented in another thread, the thought crossed my mind. It could well be other stations being joined together, or even just use them as the basis for something like a Camelot Command concept. Not everyone has the funds to do so, as a few are just techs looking to make something that could work.
Though attaching small/large factory units to it may work. Not sure if that would be better then just using shuttles to move things, but it is a work in progress.
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happyguy49
09/06/18 02:12 AM
196.52.39.11
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Look up the rules, I imagine you could just 'dock' the stations, and leave them like that.
But there is no need to actually hook all your stations together in space. There are even mass produced zero-G only busses made for the purpose of moving around between networks of stations. For instance, a shipyard complex wouldn't just be the pressurized and unpressurized yards, but also other stations that put together parts or subassemblies, house workers, warehouse components and supplies of all types, surveil and defend the complex, charge jumpships, maybe even grow food, etc.
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ghostrider
09/06/18 11:57 AM
66.74.61.223
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BMR and the original box set Aerotech are the rules I have on this, so they are very dated. This is why I asked if anyone knew if the current rules had anything with this.
The issue came up as the group I played with came across what used to be a transportation and ship yard, but due to the wars, destroyed alot of things there, and the rest was so torn up, those living at the time just wrote it all off. As the worlds there died, they just abandoned it.
We investigated it, and found more of the debris was actually useable, just had to be patchworked together. But the over all dimensions of the repair bay didn't allow some dropships or jumpship, due to something like being too tall. Laying a dropship down isn't really something you can do. Also a few home made ones were not something that would fit as the thrusters would push it into the side of the bulk heads.
Also, we wanted to be able to build defense platforms, but size again. As there is no unpressurized bays we found, we have to do with the pressurized, and they need a lot of work. So we thought to make a super sized station that could do it all.
And we can not build jumpships in it, just do repairs. Mainly armor and some structure. No techs to work on the jump cores and such.
All in the group have other things to be spending the little money they have, so buying the new books is on hold until we can get something going. And most in the group are a bit greedy. If we pitched in for one, everyone would say it is theirs. So we suffer some from it.
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ghostrider
09/11/18 05:22 PM
66.74.61.223
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The question of streak ammo came up, and it was pointed out that all streak launchers would have to have their own ammo, as the missiles lock onto their targeting unit. Same code, frequency and such would have other missiles or maybe all of them get confused on which targeting information to use.
Since there is nothing said about the launchers setting up that before a launch, all would be the same. So multiple launchers using that same ammo might all hit, or all miss depending on which unit lock onto the target, or say a tree or rock.
This would be for shared ammo.
I guess the idea of several TAG units painting targets. Several launchers would all be using one freq as well as the launchers. And that would be set before the combat. Shared ammo bin could not do so, as currently written.
Add on.
In a C3 network, would ams systems on all the mechs try to engage missiles sent against another unit in the network?
Edited by ghostrider (09/11/18 05:42 PM)
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ghostrider
11/11/18 01:52 AM
66.74.61.223
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Where can I find out information on the armored inflatable buildings that are talked about in some of the books? I know they had some in the Wolf's Dragoons novel, and I believe a few others mentioned it. I think one of the clans books used it, thinking for a jade falcon commanders genes.
The question came up while looking over temporary structures that might have some uses for scouting new worlds. Not wanting to leave a drop ship grounded, but needing shelter from the elements, this structure was brought up.
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Frabby
11/12/18 10:19 AM
91.39.175.134
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Not sure what "armored inflatable buildings" you are talking about. But the Kiudo fortress sounds a bit like what you're looking for - look it up on the Sarna wiki.
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Karagin
11/12/18 04:39 PM
72.176.187.91
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Quote:
Not sure what "armored inflatable buildings" you are talking about. But the Kiudo fortress sounds a bit like what you're looking for - look it up on the Sarna wiki.
I think he is talking about the pre-fab buildings the Dragoons use when they setup the older planetary camps back before Outreach.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/14/19 01:48 AM
66.74.60.165
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The idea of the original Star League couldn't afford to have their mechs packed full of advanced tech, but the idea of them storing tens of thousands of units around the IS makes me ask how this is, yet the League built mechs seem to have only a few systems in each that were advanced tech at the time.
The discussion of why the 3025 mechs were done the way they were, yet the League era units were supposed to be far superior.
Aside from the lawsuit, why didn't they have some units that were different from the current form, as they would have had all the tech available in the League?
Even the League only mechs were not like the clan mechs. They should have had ER lasers where mediums are now, or maybe even a different weapons system, like an anti missile system with half ton of ammo. Or a pulse laser where they have an srm 2 pack now with ammo. The succession wars down graded the League mechs, but it doesn't really seem like much of a downgrade.
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Requiem
06/14/19 03:38 AM
1.158.130.13
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When the original design rules were established it did not allow for advanced Star League designs.
So unless you have multiple design rules for multiple eras you cannot have advanced / less advanced era 'Mechs to the point it becomes noticeable whilst using the same construction rules.
So what you need is multiple construction rules for ...
- Star League Era;
- 2nd / 3rd Succession War Era;
- 3000 to 3040 Era;
- 3040 to ?
- Jihad era
- Republic Era
- Dark era
Each with their own rules as to construction to reflect their own era's technological ability is utilized - as well as how their era's tech will affect a retrofit upon a previous era 'Mech to make it more compatible with a later era's technology
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/14/19 02:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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The construction rules works for League and clan tech designs. A few things don't work, as small hover craft would have issues making the 20 percent rule.
I was wondering why the League did not have almost pure League tech in them. It was suggested it would be too expensive to do so, yet the caches and depots hidden around the IS would suggest they have far more money and resources then thought. A single laser can change the outcome of a battle. A wasp with endo steel, ferrous armor double sinks may well have a pair of ermls move the srm pack to another location as the leg is just a bad spot for it. Having it torso or arm mounted would be better. Maybe a third erml, or upgrade to an erll for the mech would have been far better.
Yet nothing. The Thorn has endosteel and little else. Why?
They had the tech and didn't use it like the clans did. Again. Why?
Some weapons should have not been made in the TH. Normal lasers being one. The erml is superior to the ml. The league should have used them exclusively once they were started. Same with the Small laser. That same could be said with the large laser. Double sinks should have been in all mechs. But wasn't.
The introduction of the super heavy units is one such change to the whole construction issue. Which does make you wonder why the clans didn't have such a unit for command HQ. Just defense comes to mind. Then again, they could sit on a warship and watch a battle, when one was available. For the invasion, if the commander wasn't part of the attacking forces, this would make sense as well. A command base is always a target for the IS.
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Requiem
06/14/19 05:38 PM
1.158.130.13
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QUOTE: “I was wondering why the League did not have almost pure League tech in them”.
First, the Construction rules require an overhaul.
Second, to answer the above quote – at a guess, lack of forethought when they were being established. – such as no one gave the design team strict rules as to what a Star League Mech should look like.
This may sound strange but, may I suggest you go into the Sarna Wiki and read about Star League Era Military Clothing under – “Uniforms of the SLDF” – here is the section regarding a MechWarrior’s neurohelmet -
“The neurohelmet was also smaller and lighter than 31st century models and could perform many more functions, thanks to a biofeedback neural apparatus that was much more sensitive and did not require contact with the wearer's scalp. Such was the sensitivity of the helmet that many warriors chose to fight with their visor and windows blackened, relying totally on the sensor information fed directly into their brain”.
Have you ever seen this in a Clan Model or a clansman relying totally on the sensor informaton?
So have a look at the aerospace pilot when you have some time – where are these today?
So, when creating Star League Mechs it looks more like a “fad” design - where they designed an advanced tech ‘Mech product around only one advanced tech product, there was no real plan about combining them all of the advanced technology into one ‘Mech – so when the team was asked to create Star League Mechs, perhaps, they needed a little more direction / instructions such as “we need all Star League Mechs to have ALL the advanced design characteristics – from the ground up as well as double heat sinks and xl engines and advanced weapon systems and the most advanced electronics and armour. (and when creating these the Beta Test team should have realised the need for more critical slots / reduced tonnage for everything – in addition when putting a cockpit in there should have been standard things that were included and explained to the general public – such as what their sensor suites could do- i.e. infra-red etc etc. and then the more advanced standard options as the league progressed over time – such as computer upgrades that allowed a ‘Mech to process a targeting solution quicker / move quicker etc etc.
As for the superheavy as a command unit – too slow and too many resources to create them would be my answer – they are viewed as a “White Elephant” much the same as the German WW2 Panzer VIII Maus (“Mouse”) super heavy tank was – too big, too slow, very hard to maneuverer on the battlefield and as soon as it was seen on the battlefield everyone opened up on it as the primary target, so once the track was taken out it was almost impossible to fix (thus it became a pillbox) – when creating it you could have made (if I remember correctly) two or three other front line tanks in exchange for one Mouse – and don’t get me started about fuel efficiency.
Where-as a clan commander requires a ‘Mech to be fast and with high mobility (like the Mongol cavalry of old) and you do not get this with a superheavy.
In addition if you did have one or more of these in the unit would this not mean all the others within the unit would also have to match their pace with that of the Superheavy – thus slowing the entire unit down to a crawl.
So in my opinion until a superheavy can match its pace with a heavy they will always been seen by those clans that appreciate mobility as an extravagance.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/14/19 05:42 PM)
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Wick
06/14/19 07:11 PM
45.43.104.179
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The Thorn THE-N is one of the very earliest Level 2 designs (2549) Before this point, CASE appeared on the Helepolis HEP-2H (2488) and both CASE and the supposedly brittle/prototype Endo Steel I had been used on the Guillotine GLT-3N (2499). Ferro-Fibrous didn't appear in numbers to be useful until the 2570s, first appearing in production in the Alfar (2573). ER Large Lasers didn't come along until 2620 (Hussar HSR-200-D and Ostwar OWR-2Mb) and the Star League never developed ER Medium or ER Small lasers. So when originally designed, the THE-N didn't have access to this tech. Why it wasn't later upgraded either at factory or via field refit kits to include something like Ferro Fibrous armor is an entirely different problem (nor easily solved due the Royal variant having the same problem, but being much later and able to include this stuff). FASA just kind of glossed over the whole Star League era and a lot of the designs are curiously lower tech than you'd expect from 200-something years of ongoing improvement. A "TRO: Refits" that addressed some of this in the 2610-2720 timeframe would be nice.
Normal lasers still made in the Terran Hegemony is a different reason. The TH had very strict export agreements on advanced tech. If you sold only to the THAF or to the Star League, you could include a lot of high tech, but your clientele was then quite limited. If you sold to the House armies as well, you could maybe include some bit of high tech, and manufacturer might accept a lesser design for broader sales. If you were wishing to sell to anyone (periphery, mercs, and militias) you probably couldn't include any high tech equipment (nor would you much want to, to keep prices low.) So there were a number of designs built in the TH throughout the Star League-era, but used lower tech specifically so it could be exported and make the company more money. This is the general rule of thumb to explain how the TH maintained a near monopoly on high tech, how the Houses got some of it, and the runts got almost none. (But even FASA and CGL have broken this rule a few times. For example, the Ironsides fighter gave away Double Heat Sink technology to anyone and everyone much earlier than it should have. Prior to 2613 is was nearly exclusive to the THAF and SLDF, with perhaps small numbers appearing on Thug, Mackie, and Galahad mechs in house armies. As far as I can tell, DHSs don't appear on a production non-THAF/non-SLDF design until the Koschei KSC-4I in 2719 - over a century later!)
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ghostrider
06/14/19 09:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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I understand having the lower tech for export, but the units in the SDLF is the key. For some odd reason, I always thought the 3025 era mechs were completely different from the original League. They say down graded because of tech issues. Yet there isn't much to suggest they were really that much different.
And using more tech should have been a non brainer in my eyes. You wanted to keep your units better then the house units, yet only have a streak pack and that's it? The heavies would make even less sense, like a Marauder having only erppcs but no double sinks? Same with a Warhammer? And all their mechs should have had case if they had ammo. So the extra weight there should have given the 3025 mechs some extra room. Maybe half ton of armor more. But it doesn't appear to be that way.
The super heavies was thought as a mobile command center. It was not meant to be part of a unit attacking, but something that was able to defend itself, and cover the rougher terrain vehicles could not. The supers can move 2/3, though not sure if masc or supercharger is available to them. But at 2/3, some assault mechs couldn't outrun it. The annihilator being one. I want to say the imp was another 2/3 mech. Even mobile artillery would work. Not saying it would replace normal command centers, but give some options for a command center.
Hell, the Urbie couldn't outrun it. 
The Ironsides sold outside the SDLF may have had single sinks, but nothing said in the fluff about it, or even shown as such. I say may, because it is very possible the game developers didn't think about that when they had it sold.
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Wick
06/15/19 07:38 PM
45.43.104.179
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A lot of them weren't different at all. Several of the most famous mechs (Locust, Wasp, Stinger, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine, Griffin, Rifleman, Thunderbolt, Banshee, to name a few) are pre-Star League era designs and have been built somewhere nearly unbroken for 600 or 700 years. The TH may have made them first, but overtime licensed them out to non-TH factories to produce.
The early SLDF was highly composed of these older mechs, especially during the Reunification War when 80% of the SLDF was hand-me-downs from the House armies. The SLDF doesn't take on a significant composition of unique mechs until the early 2600s. Even to the end of the Star League, there were a lot of SLDF regular army divisions that featured these "older" designs (though the mechs were probably much newer and better maintained than the same models in house armies.) Only the Royal divisions had disposed of older designs by then (and mostly in the early 2700s)
There are several Star-League era mechs that are common in 3025 that required downgrading during the succession wars, such as Kintaro and Crusader. Others, like the Ostscout, were introduced in the Star League-era but (perhaps curiously) didn't have equipment that became lostech. Even so, almost of the downgraded Star League mechs take a simple route, Xl engines for standard, CASE exchanged for armor, Ferro Fibrous for same tonnage of standard, ER LL or standard large. Artemis for an extra ton of ammo, etc. The mechs that had a lot of the high tech or were difficult to substitute level 1 equipment for were simply ruled to have been lost in the wars.
Unsure which Marauder and Warhammer you're talking about. The ER PPC came along very late in the Star Lrague's existence, and its presence is on mostly exclusive Royal division units which mostly used Double Heat Sinks already. The Star League MAD-1R had Ferro Fibrous armor and CASE, but these were downgraded to allow production of the well-known MAD-3R. The MAD-2R had both ER PPCs and double heat sinks, but even these were downgraded to MAD-3R specs or lost in battle by the mid-Second Succession War. The Warhammer WHM-6R and its WHM-6Rb royal variant are both regular PPCs but the Royal has DHSs. The WHM-7A meant to replace the WHM-6Rb upgraded to ER PPCs, but retained the DHSs of the WHM-6Rb.
Right, I think there should have been some retconning of things like the Ironsides, either by changing the year or rectifying the fluff to explain it (such as the SD2 being a TH militia design, until retired and sold to mercs in the 2700s, instead of immediately being sold to mercs in the early 2600s.) The Early Star League is one of the least and poorly documented eras of mech and vehicle designs, with only the early Succession Wars being worse. (The 1st and 2nd source books barely scratched the surface.) You've got hundreds of designs in the 3050-3070 timeframe, but only handfuls during these eras.
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ghostrider
06/16/19 12:46 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue is there is no real records (TROs) that show the star league units in full glory. It shows the field upgrades for 3040s and above, but nothing from the original league. An Arrow carrier or even tube artillery mech should have been made and issued. Even the Royal units should have had far more high tech in them, then what they are shown to have had.
The Locust. If it had an xl engine in it, does that mean it was faster as the same weight for the engine was a larger engine? Where the Mg's a different type of weapon? Endosteel and Ferrous armor would have freed up tonnage. Double sinks would take care of extra heat for some of that weight. Lrm 5's in each arm with a single ton of ammo shared at the cost of the mgs, and the weight saved from endo steel? The ml kept, or all removed for a single erll? The laser/mg configuration for the locust and stinger is too simple. Even the poor placement of the srm pack in the wasp is questionable.
The Marauder and Warhammer were examples. Not anything printed, but used to suggest there should be more to it then what is done. Why bother with the ac 5? Why not have a 10 or 20? Or have it full of streak packs, which were removed and the 5 added when they downgraded the Marauder? There is so much more I would expect out of the original League mechs beyond the little they did with them.
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Requiem
06/16/19 02:34 AM
1.158.130.13
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Can I suggest you refer to a previous entry of mine,
This may sound strange but, may I suggest you go into the Sarna Wiki and read about Star League Era Military Clothing under – “Uniforms of the SLDF” – here is the section regarding a MechWarrior’s neurohelmet -
“The neurohelmet was also smaller and lighter than 31st century models and could perform many more functions, thanks to a biofeedback neural apparatus that was much more sensitive and did not require contact with the wearer's scalp. Such was the sensitivity of the helmet that many warriors chose to fight with their visor and windows blackened, relying totally on the sensor information fed directly into their brain”.
Question what type of external sensory suite (this would mean multiple sensors front and back and on the side) that is attached to a computer that then transfers this information directly into the mind so that they can then direct the pilot to actually fight whilst their visor and windows are blackened out?
Is this not the evidence that the Star League Mech was way more advanced that even Inner Sphere or Clans - is the only group that comes close to this the WoB Jihad era Mechs?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/16/19 01:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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I was only dealing with the main construction, as it is the biggest thoughts of not actually showing they were the most advanced stated. I remember seeing the helmet information in one of the books. And I agree. The clans should have them and expanded on them. Comstar should have had more then a few examples, as well as in caches that had mechs with them.
I find it difficult to believe you can find a mech plant or storage area that didn't have helm with them, so people could use the mechs. Especially repair facilities.
With the helms, there is nothing saying they were better except smaller?
The mech suit captain Rose had when he left Comstar shows the tech was there.
The Enhanced Imaging system the clans came out with is a joke in my opinion. Vector Graphics? That should have been an ability the battle computer should have done.
And the pulse lasers having shorter range then the normal lasers? Yet they are supposed to be more accurate? I would think they should fire alot further, as they can fine tune their shots and still hit. The SLDF erll isn't that much further.
But then range was gone over already.
With the advancing of tech, I agree. Things like the better helms should have been reintroduced.
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Requiem
06/16/19 06:41 PM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider, I am in agreement with you the helms were not only smaller and more sensitive, so that you did not require direct skin contact, they were so powerful they could directly link with an individual’s mind to allow that human’s mind to create a “mind-scape” as to the battle going on around them. As such it turns the Clans Vectors Graphics system into a child’s toy.
The Clans should have had a more advanced helm and the system that goes with it. Their battle computer should have been something incredible given the technology available at the time of the Star League.
And I also want to say what happened to the full body heat exchange clothing of the Star league Era as the ones issued to Rose appear to be a substandard variant of those issued during the Star League Era.
So as for ComStar – I am on the belief that every single one of their ComGuard ‘Mechs should have been supplied with the “mind-scape” system as well as the most advanced full body heat exchange clothing. They had the time and the technology to ensure these were achieved for the entire Guard unit.
Plus when Rose supplied one of his heat exchange clothing as payment for assistance – why didn’t every house unit have these within the next two years?
It appears no one went back to the original books, researched what was written, and when they created both Clan Tech and ComStar Tech to give these systems a more advanced makeover.
What happened when ComStar was appropriated by Focht? Should these systems have found their way into all of the House Military units?
Also what about Wolfs Dragoons – should they have had them also? Then when they arrived within the IS they needed to remove and store them away when they realized the IS military did not have them any-more? And when the Clans returned should they have then been put back in?
Then there is the issue if they decided over time to remain in the IS why didn’t someone leak this technology to all the House Units? For without them their ability to survive a protracted war is reduced considerably – IS are using very early helm tech in comparison to Clan series two or three “mind-scape” tech.
Then there is the issue of the aero-space fighters and everything else written in this section ….
What ever happened to these? It just appears it was just forgotten about and just hoped it would disappear….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/19 05:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the Dragoons used the full body cooling suits in combat, the houses would have gotten some working copies as pilots would have died from other things the cockpit breeches, and capturing ejected pilots.
Now the question comes from the question of why Comstar didn't have the better helms. They should have been the ones to come out with the c3 system. The 'mind-scape' concept would just need secured coms to do so. Other then the clans, they would be the most likely to come up with this. Why did the Combine come up with it?
Other then Comstar giving them the tech?
The game hints that the Combine was always pushing for the low tech they had.
And let's not forget that the Dragoon warriors would have gone to house MASH units at times. No way you could avoid it.
The League was supposed to be the top of the Tech at their time, and the clans would have had working copies of this to advance. Or at least keep in production.
And even more unlikely is that NONE of this tech was found in caches or research facilities.
Another question comes to mind. Why would the League leave any advanced tech units behind intact? The clans used some of the low tech stuff, and just refitted them when they got better stuff. From the sounds of it, the clans didn't use normal lasers, acs or ppc after they came out with the newer versions with the exception of the caches that went to solemnha and garrison units.
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Requiem
06/18/19 03:03 AM
1.158.130.13
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Advancement in technology is at the whim of the Game Developers not rational thought.
As for Wolfs Dragoons … they should have placed all their technology which does not conform to the Inner Sphere’s technology into storage.
Yes I agree that League, and by extension their decedents the Clans, should have access to more advanced technology- it just appears many of the original League technology references were not investigated to allow for an accurate advancement in technology over time.
There is also the issue of all the developments Amaris’ engineers made during the war – you would have assumed the SLDF captured computer schematics, engineers, prototypes etc. – why were these never incorporated into Clan Tech?
Hating you enemy is one thing … but ignoring an advancement in technology due to this hate alone is idiotic – Post WW2 – America obtained the majority of the former Nazi and Japanese Scientists, whereas the Russians obtained the factories – both then implemented these advancements into their own civilian (Apollo program for example) and Military projects.
As for this tech never being found within the myriad of cashes found throughout the years …. Again either game developers fiat … or they had just forgotten about this technology to begin with.
As for leaving technology behind – for the exodus to prosper they need to prioritise that technology which would be required to form a prosperous new society plus they had limited room as to what was absolutely necessary and what could only be described as a novelty item.
Like all advanced societies the Clans readily adopt new technology, however due to their stratified society and their philosophy regarding waste all older technology that is still functional and cannot be readily recycled should be utilised by second tier individuals until such a time as it is no longer functional.
It is just another ‘OOOOpps’ moment by the game developers … add it to the extensive list and keep going!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/26/19 01:34 AM
66.74.60.165
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The thought came up with the discussion of the game mechanics, that the idea of a 'compact' drive used in warships and not used in jumpships came up.
The compact drive is only done to make warships feasible to be done, from what I can see.
Why doesn't jump ships use the compact drives? Comstar would have had the tech the entire time.
The first idea of why is normal jumpships carry dropships, but then most warships do. So expanding out the K-F field to take them isn't the reason.
The lack of tech comes up as well. So once the warships were re-discovered, wouldn't that be used to making Jumpships require less materials?
The should allow them to carry more dropships.
Or would someone suggest the field can't be expanded that far?
The warship is much larger, with a smaller core, so that is a bust.
So did I miss something in the tech about compact drives?
Construction rules aside, as this was done to allow warships to exist, what did I miss?
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ghostrider
06/26/19 01:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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Another oddity came up. The Capellan March seems to have come from the CC according to how the old maps of the IS before the succession wars ravaged them all.
Each state was equal on those maps, yet it appears the border line is the same one the Capellan March shares with the Cruisis March.
As the FS formed, there were several nations that joined to form, with the Capellan March being one of them. Why does this sound like something is wrong with the entire set up?
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ghostrider
06/28/19 09:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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The idea that you should be able to increase mech speeds by using TSM with a MASC system.
The TSM is supposed to be better and stronger, so should take the MASC system without any issues of damage or shut down.
This would increase the mobility of mechs without any arguments for vehicles to gain it.
The heat restriction for the TSM would be dropped as it was done for some of the worker mechs in the CC as stated in the source books.
Some ideas is the MASC weight and crits for both could be absorbed into the engine, or maybe make a package deal to specify where it goes, much like an xl engine. Think leg makes most sense. Maybe fill all the spots in the legs, though weight of MASC might be tricky.
The end result of research should allow the engine to hide the MASC, as it would provide the power at his source, not just supplement it in route to the legs.
Edited by ghostrider (06/28/19 09:52 PM)
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Wick
06/29/19 09:04 PM
45.43.104.179
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Quote:
Another oddity came up. The Capellan March seems to have come from the CC according to how the old maps of the IS before the succession wars ravaged them all.
Each state was equal on those maps, yet it appears the border line is the same one the Capellan March shares with the Cruisis March.
As the FS formed, there were several nations that joined to form, with the Capellan March being one of them. Why does this sound like something is wrong with the entire set up?
The Capellan March actually predates the Capellan Confederation. It was so named as it borders the Capellan zone - specifically the Capellan Commonality and the Chesterton Trade Federation / Tikonov Union. I think the only nation that formed its original core was the Muskegon Empire, though there may have been little single or double world nations that canon never named mixed in there.
The Capellan march mostly grew in four phases.
1. The conquering of Chesterton and surrounding worlds in the Age of War.
2. Disbanding the Terran March (split between Capellan and Draconis Marches)
3. The conquering of former Terran Hegemony worlds just prior to or in the opening phases of the First Succession War.
4. Conquering of Capellan worlds in the Second and Third Succession Wars. (The FedSuns did poorly in the First war and the Capellan March only gained a little, but lost a lot.)
So the Capellan March started thin and short, but expanded in all directions away from the Crucis March, which is why the original march border never really changed. At least officially. There's a really good chance that it changed unofficially during the First Succession War, as the Capellans got all the way to Farwell, which has always been a Crucis March world. (And they did it not once, but twice!) Farwell and perhaps its surrounding Crucis March worlds now on a hostile border (Sanilac, Listowel, Muskegon, and Amiga) almost certainly were under the military purview of the Capellan March during this time. (Perhaps Edwards, Tawas, Logandale, and Goderich as well.) For the sake of brevity, I don't think FASA or CGL have really been specific on where the March demarcations are during the underdocumented Age of War, Star League, and early Succession War eras, so the maps mostly show 3030-3080 demarcations, even when it doesn't make military sense (as in the years between First and Second Succession Wars, when Chesterton and Demeter would not reachable by a single jump from the rest of the Capellan March without first travelling through Crucis March space.)
The Successor States were never similar in size. The Capellan Confederation has always been the smallest in terms of size (but I think its more populous than the Draconis Combine.) It was the last of the five to form, and by then all the neighboring proto-states had been gobbled up. Thus it did more exploration within its own space, and during the Star League era did more terraforming than the other states - which is why its map is more densely packed than the other nations. Of course it kept getting smaller, at least until reconquering the Chaos March and alot of border worlds during the Dark Age. But the FWL has played just as big a menace to the retreating Capellan border as the FedSuns has. (The First Secession War cost the CC almost the entire Andurien Commonality, which unlike the Sarna, St Ives, and Chesterton Commonalities, they never eventually reconquered.)
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ghostrider
07/15/19 03:55 AM
66.74.60.165
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Seeing the recently posted thread about upgrading infantry, and the small laser post, got me thinking about infantry weapons range and damage with lasers, and the fact they fire further then the small laser does.
Infantry have the range of 6. I know the damage is only a point, but why would something with far less power reach out that far? I seriously doubt an infantryman could hold a laser on one spot on a unit to do the damage at that range.
Is it just me, or does this sound like a contradiction of the way lasers work?
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Requiem
07/15/19 06:36 AM
1.158.219.174
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Refer Sarna.net Wiki – Infantry – Gameplay, Rules, Notes and Quirks
Infantry weapons movement and damage inflicted requires a total reworking – RPG Vs. Board Game – normalizing the two systems in addition to this they the damage they receive from different weapon systems requires work as well.
Specialty weapons and weapon teams needs to be introduced
I would start with an anti-power-armour sniper rifle that can penetrate the head armour of an elemental at an extreme range of between 600 to 800 meters.
Especially post 3053 with the introduction of AP ammo.
In addition there needs to be a cut off to the damage an infantry unit can do depending on the weapons they have / number of people within their unit - eg. a normal infantry long rifle will not be able to penetrate Mech / Armoured Vehicles armour no matter how many are engaging it – as these are only useful against other Infantry Units. If you are going Mech or Armoured Vehicle hunting you should be equipped with the necessary weapons to do the job.
In addition to this I believe the idea that anti-missile system needs to be re-looked at – All Star League Vehicles should have been equipped with a minimum of two such devices and a computer that could handle multiple targets at once – this would then be used as the evidence as to why such weapon systems such as cruise missiles became obsolete.
The weight of such a device should have been almost negligible and the Clans should have had an updated version of this.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/06/20 01:03 AM
66.74.60.165
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Old age finally catching up to me. I don't remember if I asked about this before, so if I did, tell me.
XL engines are supposed to be made with the crystaline structures heat sinks are made of...
So wouldn't that mean the extra space it takes up, would cool the engine even more?
Even without that, wouldn't there be an issue with single sinks verses double sinks?
With new models coming out, or old units being refitted, a Vlar 300 engine could be put into an Atlas, Marauder, and a few other units, yet some have single sinks and others double sinks. So is there a separate line for each?
Maybe a better example is a Vlar 300 fusion engine being used in a vehicle. They can't use double sinks according to the rules.
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ghostrider
02/11/20 12:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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In 2974, several groups of archaeologists, historians, and anthropologists merged to form Interstellar Expeditions.
IE is almost certain that the Minnesota Tribe is in fact the Not-Named Clan — Clan Wolverine
How is this possible? At this stage, no one knew of any of the clans, so how can they identify it as Clan Wolverine?
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Karagin
02/11/20 01:40 PM
70.118.172.64
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I have someplace on one of the hard drives, what my group tried to do for better infantry weapons. I will see about finding it.
Thing is, the mechs are the selling point for the game, and TPTB won't change that. Thus no DHS for vehicles or EndoSteel, etc...no better IC Engines, yeah I am well aware of the fuel cells, etc...NOT better IC Engines, just different versions of the same thing. So while it would be great to see things change, we won't see that happen unless they rework the entire game from the ground up, and they kind tired that with Click-Tech aka MechWarrior Dark Age and that fell on it's face hard and fast.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/11/20 01:50 PM
1.158.235.15
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Sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology
Shielding and Fusion Engine Types
“Extra-light (XL) engines reduce the mass of the tungsten carbide reactor walls but reinforces them with an oriented crystalline plastic that creates a bulkier but lighter engine. “
Cooling Systems Heat Sinks
“The wonder plastics of the first Star League had a big hand in enhancing radiators. While these semi-crystalline polymers don't quite have graphite's thermal conductivity, they are dramatically lighter, allowing larger radiators for the same mass as standard Heat sinks. This what allows for "double strength" Heat sinks.”
“The Clans never lost this technology and they even improved it by making the material more crystalline, which makes for a more thermally conductive and physically compact but more brittle radiator.”
Sarna.net wiki Heat Sink
“Traditional heat sinks, the so-called single strength heat sinks, typically use radiators made of very thermally conductive oriented graphite.”
“Double heat sinks ….. but take up more space to operate effectively because of their use of a crystalline polymer. This polymer, similar to the engine shielding of XL fusion engines, is not as thermally conductive as graphite but significantly lighter and more durable, allowing it to be formed into a larger radiator for the same mass.”
Engine - crystalline plastic; and
Heat Sink - semi-crystalline polymers;
As stated above they are similar but are not the same materials.
Interstellar Expeditions
The Founding year of IE is 2974 – not the information they are taking about ….. in 2974 all they would have is a theory that the Minnesota tribe had a link to the 331st RCT who disappeared with Kerensky during the Exodus.
Fast forward to 3050 and the Clan’s Invasion of the IS, once it was confirmed that the Clan’s were once Kerensky’s SLDF Exodus units they could then link (consider the possibility) that the Clans are associated with the Minnesota Tribe.
Fast forward a bit more, to when IE obtains a complete history of the Clans they can now link (with a high degree of probability) that Clan Wolverine … the Not-Named Clan …. is that of the Minnesota Tribe.
The page in question is written from the point of view of someone in 3150, wher they continue to postulate that the Not-Named Clan / Clan Wolverine and the Minnesota Tribe are one in the same.
Ie. they connected the dots .... or were able to interview a Clansman on the subject and came to the same conclusion …
As per sarna.net wiki Sarah McEvedy and Minnesota Tribe ….
First – the timing ….. Incident in Clan Space 2824 …. Incident within the IS 2825
“In 2825, a strange but highly skilled unit using SLDF tactics, painted in regular army colors and bearing the insignia of the North American state of Minnesota ….”
Then there is the link between Khan Sarah McEvedy ….and her father ….. James McEvedy ….Lieutenant General James McEvedy, the last Commanding Officer of the 331st Royal BattleMech Division
…. Soldiers from the 331st became the core of the Clan Wolverine Touman;
…. the Brian Cache that contained equipment formerly belonging to the 331st RBD;
Then under sarna.net wiki 331st Royal BattleMech Division Notes:
“The SLDF Division's commander was always from the North American region of Terra, and its symbol changed depending on which socio-political region the commander was from. In the Case of James McEvedy his was Minnesota.”
QED.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/11/20 03:15 PM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem Congrats on posting stats. That doesn't answer or counter anything I posted. All you did was copypaste things. I am going to ask what was the point of the copypaste? Since TPTB aren't changing the rules to allow vehicles to gain advantages making them equals to mechs, we are either stuck with them as is, or home rules are used, which is what my group does, so again not sure why you saw the need to copypaste information ALREADY known to myself and others.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/11/20 03:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
In 2974, several groups of archaeologists, historians, and anthropologists merged to form Interstellar Expeditions.
IE is almost certain that the Minnesota Tribe is in fact the Not-Named Clan — Clan Wolverine
How is this possible? At this stage, no one knew of any of the clans, so how can they identify it as Clan Wolverine?
Checkout Bloodname Scenario Pack for Mechwarrior RPG, it tells you that the Clans do keep looking for the Wolverines and one of the biggest groups to do so are the Bears.
Now for the of the Clans...they might not care anymore, beyond the old boogieman in the closet thing, or as more of an insulting kind of thing to compare them to said, group.
We don't see the Inner Sphere powers actively hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris, so it could become one of those things that time and distance makes it pointless and non-relative to them to worry about.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/11/20 04:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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During the Word of Blake Jihad, Chandrasekhar Kurita would supposedly uncover a series of unconfirmed documents of questionable provenance that apparently revealed the fate of the Wolverines. Indicating the survivors who fled Clan-space—supposedly almost a fifth of the Clan's personnel[22]—indeed reached the Inner Sphere as the so-called "Minnesota Tribe", the document claims that in June 2826 ComStar, rather than losing the trail, met and offered the Wolverines refuge. Upon reaching Terra and settling on Mars, while many of the Wolverines were content to merely rest, scientist and leader of the exiled Clan's civilian population Peter Marillier forged a plan that would transform the Wolverines into a secret faction within ComStar — The so-called Blood — that would first aid then co-opt the organization from within, directing it to ultimate dominion over both the Inner Sphere and Clans.
So when did they suspect it was clan Wolverine?
Before 2900s. 140 so years before the Outbound Light found Huntress.
And with this, it seems it was this point that comstar decided it would try and take over?
And this should also mean that Comstar knew of the clans long before the invaded.
Edited by ghostrider (02/11/20 04:37 PM)
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ghostrider
02/11/20 04:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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Requiem. Explain this. You buy and install a double heat sink version of a fusion engine in a vehicle.
How does it magically make the double sinks not work, especially if it is the ONLY source of sinks on a tank.
Yet pull it out of the tank and put it in a mech and it magically works right.
The idea of it becoming weaker in a tank, then back to full strength in a mech (1 hit to destroy in tank, 3 in mech) makes no sense either.
There is nothing stating that extra materials, which aren't added into the weight, to be installed in a mech. A tank needs 1/2 the weight for Shielding stuff.
And with that, the XL engine is half the weight, but some how the XL transmission and shielding is halved as well, yet you can use the XL transmission with a standard fusion engine.
Something is very wrong with this logic.
The wiki does suggest that the 'Blood' unit in comstar, then WOB is suspected to be from another annihilated clan.
As well as this.
Emerging after the enactment of Fortress Republic, one of the more notable theories as to the origin of the mysterious Fidelis was that they were the remnants of Clan Wolverine fighting for the Republic of the Sphere. Those who believe this theory point to both the elite Clan warrior level skills in combat and ability to maintain Clan-tech shown by the Fidelis', as well as the near fanatical hatred displayed when facing Clans Jade Falcon and Wolf on the battlefield, unaware of the group's origin from an entirely different Annihilated Clan.
Edited by ghostrider (02/11/20 04:35 PM)
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Requiem
02/11/20 05:16 PM
1.158.235.15
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Karagan, have you read Betrayal of Ideals? The last chapter explains why the Bears are still looking ….
As for hunting war criminals ….. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Wiesenthal
Quote:
So when did they suspect it was clan Wolverine? Before 2900s. 140 so years before the Outbound Light found Huntress.
Uncle Chandy manufactured the documents to oppose the Word of Blake – protect the DC?
If I remember correctly no evidence of Clan Wolverine DNA was ever found.
Quote:
And there is no where in that area that states this was from 3150.
President/CEO: Dr. Naomi Wilson (Circa 3130),
Plus the maps are now updated to 3150 …..
Quote:
Explain this. You buy and install a double heat sink version of a fusion engine in a vehicle. How does it magically make the double sinks not work, especially if it is the ONLY source of sinks on a tank. Yet pull it out of the tank and put it in a mech and it magically works right.
Refer sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology
Sub Heading: Collecting Heat
“Fusion engines and weapon systems have cooling jackets hooked up to tubes carrying coolant which are networked into their frames. These tubes connect to the Heat sink network. Myomer bundles have coolant lines laced through them in a manner not unlike a vascular system. All of these coolant lines run into collection systems that connect to the heat pumps and radiators that dump the heat.”
Assumption – it takes the entire system to work correctly? In a ‘tank’ it doesn’t have this so it doesn’t work (less shielding 1 hit) – attach it to a ‘Mech’s system and it does (more shielding 3 hit)?
Ask an engineer for an explanation?
Quote:
…. Fidelis…. elite Clan warrior level skills in combat and ability to maintain Clan-tech
Clan not Wolverine ….
How long have the Wolverines been separate from the Clans by this time period? By now Wolverines would have become a separate entity with their own technology / fighting style – yes it may be similar, but similar does not mean identical tech.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/11/20 06:06 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Karagan, have you read Betrayal of Ideals? The last chapter explains why the Bears are still looking ….
As for hunting war criminals ….. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Wiesenthal
Yes and I have also read the Bloodname MW Scenario Pack, so it's NOT new information that they ALLOWED them to escape. So again your copypaste of states and random items is not explained.
And your point about war criminals...again we don't see the IS going after them and so again we only have a one-sided view of the Wolverines even with the recent info via the novels.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (02/11/20 06:07 PM)
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Requiem
02/11/20 07:01 PM
1.158.235.15
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I’m sorry you feel that way.
Quote:
they ALLOWED them to escape.
Then what happened on Continent Number Three, Gamma 1551 AV, Codenamed “Barbados”, Along the Exodus Road, in late 2824 was just the Clans just letting them (Wolverines) go?
Quote:
your point about war criminals...again we don't see the IS going after them
Sarna.net wiki Kali Liao
“She ordered the Black May attacks in 3062, for which she was tried and convicted in a Star League court and sentenced to internal exile on Highspire.”
So what is Kali Liao? .... Soldier, Terrorist, ..........
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/11/20 08:19 PM
70.118.172.64
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Thank you Requiem, I would not know what to do without your keen observation of the facts and your over use of the wike here.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/11/20 10:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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Do you actually read the posts? It doesn't look like it. The statement made above states the Fidelis is NOT the Wolverines, but another annihilated clan.
So there isn't factions in Comstar that would lie about something like this? Considering the Wolverines were supposed to have come out with more then a few inventions before they left, it would stand that the advancements above the League's would prove worthwhile. Oh yeah. Comstar never lies.
They would do anything to disprove they knew of the clans before the invasion.
But then Blake's entire life was dedicated to perverting Comstar to mess with the IS and try to take over. Oh yeah. That wasn't right either.
So having someone come in like this and give them that idea would sound about right.
And I would think the same faction would have killed off anyone related to the Wolverines as soon as they could. No survivors means no witnesses. It isn't like nuking worlds would be their only sin.
Tanks have used fusion engines in them with energy weapons, so it isn't like it is something new to hook up one in a vehicle.
And mechs don't have anything stating there is extra shielding in them for the fusion engine, but vehicles do. It sounds like they run motors to the wheels/tracks/lift fans, as Fuel cells supports this, when using a fusion engine. Now. Using just the sinks that comes with the engine, and no more, there is no reason why a double sink built fusion engine would not allow double heat dissipation in a logical sense. TPTB did this to make sure vehicles stayed nerfed. This is the inconsistencies that need to be fixed.
Karagin. It seems Requiem is not using the whole statement of: We don't see the Inner Sphere powers actively hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris, so it could become one of those things that time and distance makes it pointless and non-relative to them to worry about. to respond to. He left out the hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris.
He wouldn't be able to argue as much if he did have the whole context in mind.
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Karagin
02/11/20 10:54 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Do you actually read the posts? It doesn't look like it. The statement made above states the Fidelis is NOT the Wolverines, but another annihilated clan.
He is mixing up the novels and such and thus getting his "facts" confused.
Quote:
Tanks have used fusion engines in them with energy weapons, so it isn't like it is something new to hook up one in a vehicle.
And mechs don't have anything stating there is extra shielding in them for the fusion engine, but vehicles do. It sounds like they run motors to the wheels/tracks/lift fans, as Fuel cells supports this, when using a fusion engine. Now. Using just the sinks that comes with the engine, and no more, there is no reason why a double sink built fusion engine would not allow double heat dissipation in a logical sense. TPTB did this to make sure vehicles stayed nerfed. This is the inconsistencies that need to be fixed.
I agree they do need to fix things that they nerfed when they did the big tech dump and thought that would go over well. Point is vehicles should be using the ALL of the same technology short of myomers (and given that we see the Clans have their transformer mech/vehicles this might be possible). The idea that somehow they don't has never been explained beyond TPTB claim that if they did vehicles would destroy mechs is far fetched given the To Hit Table makes that NEXT to impossible, 12 areas to hit on a mech (not including the internals) vs 5 on vehicles and every side hit causes some kind of motive damage issue...yeah okay. My group, we give it a shot one day, built four vehicles each, two tracked (25 and 50 tons), one hover (50 tons), one-wheeled (60 tons). Allowed Endosteel and DHS. Followed the normal construction rules beyond allowing those two things. Then we ran a set of four battles, so a lance of similar weight class mechs, picked from a random pile of mech sheets each time. So after the four games, ONE time did the vehicle force win, if you call winning having one vehicle left mobile and still able to fight. But again TPTB want the mechs to be king, (armored combat simulator was a tag line at one point right?)
Quote:
Karagin. It seems Requiem is not using the whole statement of: We don't see the Inner Sphere powers actively hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris, so it could become one of those things that time and distance makes it pointless and non-relative to them to worry about. to respond to. He left out the hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris.
He wouldn't be able to argue as much if he did have the whole context in mind.
Yes, I noticed that he left out his whole point by dropping the real-world topic in about war crimes hunters. I could guess he was trying to make a point but the context was not there so I may be wrong. And as I said we don't see the Inner Sphere going after war criminals and over time the Clans would forget about the Wolverines beyond an objective lesson how NOT to step out of line and what lines not to cross.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/12/20 01:01 AM
1.158.235.15
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Why quotes: provide evidence to support your point of view.
Quote:
The statement made above states the Fidelis is NOT the Wolverines, but another annihilated clan.
Correct the Fidelis are Smoke Jaguar.
Quote:
But then Blake's entire life was dedicated to perverting Comstar to mess with the IS and try to take over. Oh yeah. That wasn't right either.
Jerome Blake
Born 2739
ComStar Formed 2785 …………………age 46
Died 2819 ………………………………..age 80, so a little under half his life?
Yes we know, pit them against each other until they are back in the stone age, then ride out like the knights of old to restore the SL in one big Blakean Theocracy.
Quote:
And I would think the same faction would have killed off anyone related to the Wolverines as soon as they could. No survivors means no witnesses.
How could they when they are not even in the IS? (No evidence to support the supposition that they are within the IS)
Quote:
Tanks have used fusion engines in them with energy weapons …. This is the inconsistencies that need to be fixed.
Please read: Refer sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology - Sub Heading: Collecting Heat
Quote:
….. hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris …..
I didn’t think I had to say this but ….
Sarna.net wiki Stefan Amaris
“Kerensky's troops slaughtered everyone in the Rim Worlds Republic with the name Amaris …. “
So the IS powers didn’t have to, Kerensky beat them to the punch ….
Quote:
And as I said we don't see the Inner Sphere going after war criminals ….
As stated above what is Kali Liao in regards to the Black May attacks in 3062?
The Master – the “real” Thomas Marik – and his protege Calvin McIntyre – Circinus – dead world. They killed an entire wold just to get him!
Question – how many are still hunting for the lost WoB Units?
Do you think anyone is ever going to forgive the WoB?
How many Simon Wiesenthal’s were created by this era alone?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/12/20 01:04 AM)
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ghostrider
02/12/20 01:59 AM
66.74.60.165
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Let's see what the OPINION says.
All fusion reactions generate radiation... they irradiate their interiors, which causes problems when the reactor must be serviced or decommissioned. Because of this radiation shielding is the largest portion of a 'Mech scale fusion engine's mass.
Hmmm. This isn't true.
Engine Cooling Systems[edit]
Fusion engines also have their own integral cooling system in addition to their regenerative cooling systems. These other cooling systems are separate from the rest of the 'Mech's Heat sink network. Liquid nitrogen jackets are used over key components, which allows minimal engine operations without having to activate the external Heat Sink systems. Any more use of the engine requires the larger cooling capacity of the main Heat sink and regenerative systems.
Nothing in here says that the engines don't work in vehicles....
High heat levels can even cause the magnetic fields in the 'Mech's fusion engine to fail, exposing the 'Mech and it's MechWarrior to lethal levels of radiation.
Hmm. Radiation being a problem yet again. So far this non canon essay has shown to be lying on this subject at least.
The collecting heat doesn't say much. And honestly, that would not be the case with a mech that has all the heat dissipation in the engine. A standard Locust for instance. The 10 sinks are the engine only. Why could they run lines all over the mech?
And it still doesn't say why the double sink fusion engine only works in a mech. Normal fusion engines work fine. So why would swapping to a double sink engine not work? This is a logic hole. Not how much advocado toast Omi Kurita ate in a day.
Now it's time for the Amaris issue. Remotely related to, does not mean the have the last name as Amaris. One of the pirate lords was thought to be one of those descendants. Wait. That was in 3025 era, and the clans were extremely violent when they took him out... So 300 years later those with Amaris blood still lived. Hmmm. Guess the SLDF wiped them all out.
Even Comstar doesn't know all those that were in WOB. So who are you hunting for? Their names and faces don't do a lot when they can be changed easily. Are they scouring the periphery or merc units that got someone that doesn't reveal their past or 'forgot' it? Maybe they went to live with the Wolverines.
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ghostrider
02/12/20 02:11 AM
66.74.60.165
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There are, however, other ways the reaction can cool down. If the magnetic fields don't do their job, the plasma ball can actually touch the frigid walls of the core which results in the plasma ball "blinking out." This barely even scuffs the walls of the reactor.
So the extremely high temperature plasma does not do anything to the wall? I guess this is why nukes are nerfed.
This is a spectacular way to decommission a fusion reactor - a rampaging super-hot oxygen flash fire - but it is not a nuclear blast.
Contradiction in their own essay. The flash fire would burn more then just the engine walls.
But then the essay is an opinion. If not, then when did they change the rules about this? Another retcon?
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Requiem
02/12/20 04:17 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
This is a logic hole
A House Rule(s) Requirement for you home game?
Quote:
Not how much avocado toast Omi Kurita ate in a day.
Which is none,
she is definitely an okonomiyaki for breakfast kind of girl, thought when Victor was around strawberries and cream ….
Quote:
the Amaris issue ….
How many generations should the SLDF / Houses go on both sides of the family before is vengeance is satisfied … ?
Guilty by DNA what a novel concept!
Quote:
Even Comstar doesn't know all those that were in WOB.
Records – WoB records + any other physical record;
Professional Media;
Social Media;
WoB Prisoners (Re-education camps) + any Person who had a ‘negative’ interaction with the WoB – must be interviewed + portrait sketch artist;
Obtaining Physical evidence;
Hunting those with WoB implants;
So,all of this information must be collated and lists prepared, together with photographs ….
Plus every House’s spy agency will also be on the lookout;
Plus there are individuals looking for the “Hidden” worlds;
Something similar to …. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/12/20 08:55 AM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem, I doubt that Kerensky got every single last branch of the Amaris family. Just as was pointed out, ComStar can't figure out who was in the WoB, so I doubt seriously that the Star League was able to track everyone down who was related to Amaris.
We don't see the whole of the Inner Sphere going after the Combine for the Kentares Massacre, nor did we see Laio wiped out after they used WMDs during the lead up to the Jihad and during it. So no, the Inner Sphere doesn't waste centuries hunting down anything. So no, the Inner Sphere is not going after war criminals.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/12/20 12:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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Hmmm. This is a logic hole is answered by A House Rule(s) Requirement for you home game?
The arguments put forth by you tries to exploit a few of the logic holes in the game, and yet it is constantly said canon doesn't follow logic.
Did actual posting of the opinion show that when everything is read, that story is far different then what is presented? Twisting words to make it look like a person is right.
I will say that the records of WHO was in the Amaris family and part of the military that was hated has been lost from not only time, but by hacking and such. For the IS, it is even more unlikely that the masses are going to bother scouring worlds, as they don't have the information to identify them.
DNA testing would work only if it were a few generations in. After so many, the DNA in the sample would become less and less. It will never disappear as some DNA for all males are the same as well as some DNA for women are all the same.
Hmmm. Given their shadow nature, I am sure WOB posted their peoples files on the network for the general public to see. Not even remotely likely.
More then a few of their operations would have very little to no such information being stored. And when they started to lose, a purge would have happened. Those hidden worlds would become the repository of all written material. And still something that seems to be missed, not everyone in an organization as large as WOB will know everyone else.
Then there is the issue that more then a few did nothing more then work shipping supplies and such, that had no involvement in the attacks that were done. Those that thought of, and ordered those attacks would be the most sought after, but not everyone in the organization. And this is where the moral stigma comes in. Do you kill them all, to avoid another rise up of the organization? Or do you just take out those that ordered and performed the actions?
The opinion essay was interesting in the areas I did read, but has more then a few issues as pointed out as well as others. But it is an opinion, not canon fact. I could come up with something that says the Star League fell because of an outbreak of food poisoning. Or a larger core would allow for a longer jump.
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ghostrider
03/11/20 09:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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Interesting material in the wiki under the Dire Wolf warship.
The Republican forces on the ground had also seized three ground based space defense weapons, and as the SLDF engaged in a sixteen hour battle that saw every Republican ship in orbit destroyed, the ground defenses added their fire to that of the Republican navy. The Enterprise was destroyed during this battle, having taken significant damage from the ground-based defenses
This suggests that ground batteries were used in the Star League, yet some how, is impossible to have set up naval weapons to fire at ships in orbit.
So is the fluff for the warship wrong, and therefore needs to be listed as such?
Or should the rules for making ground based naval weapons have been made?
If they were in space, and controlled from the ground, those weapons would have been destroyed when they opened fire on the SL ships. As this is not the case, nor was there any overrides mentioned to shut them down, it would mean they were manually fired from the ground.
Edited by ghostrider (03/11/20 09:45 PM)
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ghostrider
04/08/20 12:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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Playing the HBS video game, BattleTech, I realized something that I would like explained.
The spinners of the Jumpship in the game are never retracted, but remain spread out during the jump.
Is this the way it is supposed to be? Or did they just ignore that little detail.
And yes, they show a recharge and jump in 2 game days, but do it to move the game forward, as the running costs are horrible when you first start playing.
But the spinner problem comes out as the discussion of the K-F boom issue with dropships having to be contained in them.
It looks like they are spread out much further then even the largest dropships would be, The idea of making some ships that can be stacked on really comes to the forefront with seeing this. The Argo isn't what I am talking about, but it does show it can be done.
Given the age, ever 3025, they should have been able to upgrade jump computers to be able to calculate the extra weight and mass that would come from this. It is far less weight and mass to have even 5 Leopards stacked on each other, then a single Behemoth dropship, filled with supplies.
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ghostrider
08/01/20 02:59 AM
66.74.60.165
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Another question has come up, and I could use some answers.
From all the factories around the IS and periphery, did the SL have thousands of factories that produced a single mech type, and limited to say 20 or so a year? I honestly don't see them making more, as the sheer amount should replenish the entire SLDF in a year otherwise. I can understand some research facilities being thought as just a mech producer, but I just can't seem to get a solution with this.
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Requiem
08/01/20 05:21 AM
1.158.133.26
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From a mathematical perspective …..
The SLDF consists of 1,062 Regiments of BattleMechs (including VTOL) thus there is 197,532 Operational Line Mechs in the SLDF – then when you factor in Academies / special forces that are off book this equates to over 200,000 BattleMechs all requiring spare parts etc
Assume 50 BattleMech designs (including LAMs) in operation at any one time – that equates to 4,000 BattleMechs to be serviced / replaced etc per design – and if there are only 25 designs at one time = 8,000 per design
Then there is replacing old designs with new models …. Even with a service life of 25 years per design … this still equates to a vast amount of spare parts etc.
Then there is the issue of service life of individual combat vehicle, assume 5 years and then scrapped for a new one? …. At 4,000 per design that’s 800 new Mechs per year minimum that may require to be exchanged new for old
Then there is the issue of war – mass replacement to retain the military numbers – depends upon loss depletion report numbers as to the expected numbers …..
During the Amaris / Kerensky War over 90% were destroyed and were never able to be recovered …..
Thus the number of factories available per design depend s upon quantity number that can be produced per year
1 factory = 800 per year
2 factories = 400 per year each
4 factories = 200 per year each
Then there will have to be lines that just produce spare parts so there could be 2 additional factories that just manufacture these .
Thus for the Light mechs there could be just 2 factories – however as the tonnage increase so too will the time required to manufacture – so that Assault ‘Mechs could have 8 factories to maintain the quota of 800 per year – thus the total number of factories would equate to be around the 350 Mark – for just BattleMechs
Then there are all the other services
Armor
Aerospace
Conventional Fighters
Dropships
JumpShips
Warships - parts alone there could be hundreds of suppliers
Infantry – this is were the number really starts to increase quickly when you consider everything an infantryman requires to keep operational;
Food / water
Munitions etc.
Thus yes, to keep the SLDF operational with everything that is required you will be looking at thousands of factories each with their own supply requirements and logistics requirements …..
This is why the Accounting / logistics requirements of the military are so very important …. Something that is always overlooked !
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
08/03/20 10:28 AM
173.247.25.195
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Do you mean service life or construction timeframe? Because most SL-era mechs were both built and used for way more than 25 years.
Just looking at the Mechs active in regular army in 2767 (90 designs), the average length of construction (limited to 2571-2767period) was 101 years per the data I collected for my RAT. Some built prior to 2571 that would lengthen this period. And the Royal units would add many more designs (though most at a shorter period.) I'm not saying my numbers are canon, but are based on canon so they're a reasonable estimate. 50 designs at 25 years of use per design is way underestimated though. More designs helps your argument for more factories, but the length of construction time hurts - and the average service time must be longer than construction timeframe (very few units are retired the last year of construction.)
And with few wars during the Star League era, most units wouldn't need more than routine maintenance. For the two big wars (Reunification at the start and the liberation of Terran Hegemony at the end), the SLDF spent a few years amassing supplies and material before advancing. But between 2597 and 2767 there wouldn't need to be as many spare parts needed.
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ghostrider
08/03/20 12:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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That is why I was asking if the SL used small manufacturing facilies instead of a few like Defiance. So many seem to be found, and the numbers of what the SL had, makes me wonder about the size of each factory.
It just seems there are far to many factories spread around the IS and Periphery to more then cover replacement units as well as making new regiments. Maybe I am just getting my information wrong. This is why I asked about it.
This is not including the ones in the TH area.
Which the Amaris war suggests some can put out a hundred or more a year. I want to say the Jackrabbit mech is one of them.
Just looked up the Jackrabbit and after the Amaris war, over 500 were mothballed by Comstar. The first came off line 2 weeks before the Coup.
Edited by ghostrider (08/03/20 12:19 PM)
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Wick
08/04/20 12:42 PM
173.247.25.195
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I seem to recall reading somewhere that Defiance was gigantic even during the Star League days. Surely there were some large SL factories destroyed, but I suspect many more smaller ones. The majority of factories described post-3025 in canon produce 1 to 4 units, so this is probably typical of Star League era as well. Some produce no units and only export materials to other factories - undoubtedly there were many of these in the Star League as well. I'd suspect even more of this type, as after 250 years of warfare the Houses would have consolidated military production into fewer factories to reduce the garrisoning load. You probably had independent factories producing nothing but simple StarSlab armor in 2750 that just don't exist by 3050.
Production per factory varies wildly in canon. You've got things like the Banshee made for 10 years but 5000 made (500 per year) while things like Marauder II are a mere 24 per year (per Objective Raids, half dozen every 3 months). I realize Age of War and Clan Invasion timeframe are different but this is a huge discrepancy in the numbers of what is basically the most powerful unit in the game made by an Inner Sphere factory at the time. Lighter mechs roll off the line even faster - Jenners at 1350/year from two factories in 2830 for example. Clearly decent sized factories on Terra could produce 100+ Jackrabbits in a year during late Star League era. Probably way more than that since so many were destroyed by the SLDF, first on their way to Apollo, and then again on return to Terra. My guess would be something like 500-1000 Jackrabbits per year.
If the late Star League production capacity astounds you, then it should reveal just how devastating the first two Succession Wars were. I think the number floated is something like 90% of military production capacity destroyed and each House losing over half its military strength. If the Houses had the means to continue producing units as they were during the Star League without either the massive destruction or the SLDF to consume them, then they would have rapidly grown in size and strength but instead went the other direction - they actually did grow from about 2784 to 2788, but all downhill after that until the 3030s. (They grew steadily from early 2750s to the SLDF's departure, but accelerated afterwards for a few years until the War reversed fortunes.)
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ghostrider
08/04/20 01:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not astounding, but curious on the actual numbers of factories around the game map.
Defiance was huge in making war machines when it was built. That is not in question. I know Terra was a major site for facilities as well. There are more then 6 still in existence that Comstar has used.
But as stated, it seems like there are so many factories that are found, or were destroyed, the question is, how many units were commonly made by them? Something the size of say a super walmart might only produce say 10 a year, as they are not automated, or just complicated. But yet, some were suggested to make many more.
I do understand that games just love to put in things that don't really exist in the canonverse. SL factories is one such thing, as it is a 'very important' thing to find. But it still makes me wonder the numbers of what they make. There is no real size given for the factories, so is it just a small thing that does the 10 a year, or is it something the rivals Defiance for numbers?
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ghostrider
12/15/20 12:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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Seeing the new ship design with detachable sails, the question of how the sail doesn't get destroyed when the ship jumps if left behind, or that it isn't pushed into space and becomes a giant 'missile' in the jump area comes to mind.
The question of damage done to detachable sails comes from the old fluff in the official books, saying the sails were left by ships, and other ships could use them as well as the original vessel re-use them if they came back into the system.
I would also like to know if the sails blow away in the solar winds as without any force to move it, how the cables would move away from the ship.
The jump might push the cables/sail away from the ship, but then it should not be useable to the next ship.
The jump field verses the distance the actual sail is from the ship is a potential way of avoiding the damage, but I don't have the information on this formula.
Now this could have been answered in one of the newer books, but as stated so many times before, I don't have any past BMR at this time.
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Wick
12/15/20 08:10 PM
173.247.25.195
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I think there's three cases, and two are a little different whether a standard or pirate jump point:
Close: As I recall a jumpship can't jump with sail deployed or it damages the sail. If its detached but still close to the jumpship when it jumps, I presume the same backdraft of pressure would effectively destroy it, regardless of a standard or pirate jump point. Like you, I'm not aware of any formula given in the sourcebooks that tells us what exactly is the safe distance to avoid destruction.
Moderate: If the sail was the right distance (and its shape hadn't yet changed much), I suppose it could be propelled instead of destroyed by the jumpship's wake. Its debatable whether it would have a velocity to be a "missile" at a standard jump point, but with the help of nearby planet's gravity a detached sail at a pirate jump point could become fast orbiting space junk.
Far away: At a distance in which a detached solar sail is neither damaged or propelled, then gravity, solar wind, and light pressure are the deciding factors. At a standard jump point, a solar sail would only move away from the star if its kept taut. For a detached sail this won't last long. A few hours or a day or two. Its own gravity and lack of supporting structure will cause it to deform, eventually into a crumpled loose ball or hemispherical cup shape. Once crumpled up, solar wind and light pressure won't affect its velocity away from the star all that much as they're relatively weak (especially at jump point distance.) Its the difference between a sail boat with its sail deployed and sail collapsed. The wind is going to move one, but have barely any effect on the other. However, being non-uniform in shape will allow gravimetric effects and light pressure to cause it to spin in space. It shouldn't move too far away though so its still a hazard to incoming jumpships and transmitting dropships. A spinning object casts light and radar waves in distinguishable patterns though so dropship sensors should conceivably be able to detect and avoid it. And its still quite tiny compared to the total volume of space at the standard jump points though, so the chances of a collision remain very remote. Given enough time I suspect a loose crumped ball would eventually be pulled in by the star's gravity, but this could take centuries, millenniums, or even longer. A sail left at a pirate point would probably either be pulled into the nearest planet or enter a solar orbit and not be much of a long-term hazard but could be an intermittent hazard for a very long time if it were in a semi-stable solar orbit.
Overall I don't see much problem in detaching a sail. It doesn't terribly wreck the world for everyone else, and a jumpship can still recharge without a sail using its fusion engine (it just takes far longer.) The bigger problem I see is trying to reclaim a detached sail. Unless it was just released a short time earlier, it'll be tumbling through space, likely with cables hanging out ready to whip any ship or recovery crew that tried to get close to it. A crumbled ball 100 meters in size with 500 meter cables sticking out, gives a diameter of 1100m and circumference of 3455m; if spinning just once a minute, that gives an arc at the end of the cable of 57.5 meters/second, 189 ft/sec, 129 miles per hour, or 207 kph. That's going to hurt if you get hit by a metal cable at that speed. (Assuming it doesn't lacerate your spacesuit and nearly cut you in half.) And if you weren't using people, any ship near enough would just get tangled up in the long cables. I'd much rather just leave the damn thing alone and get a sail from a safer place. If it proved to be a navigation hazard, using low powered lasers beamed onto the darker side to cancel out the rotation would be my choice of action, but that would take weeks or months to enact, during which a sail is likely to be found from safer alternatives. Trying to harvest a discarded sail just dangling out there in dead space is a lethal pursuit in my opinion, unless you were to grab one just recently detached before a recovery effort became unmanageable.
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ghostrider
12/16/20 12:24 AM
66.74.60.165
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Any sort of speed that could shove the sail into another ship would be the 'missile' effect. No matter how fragile the sail is, smacking into a ship, or worse, a sail that is being deployed or has been, would be enough to cause problems.
I know that leaving the sail, if detachable, doesn't hurt the ship that leaves it. I was wondering about the statement in the older books that said the sail that is left, could be reused by others. This is the main reason for the question of what actually happens to it. But that statement was done BEFORE the new information of the jump pushing things out of the way when a jump occurs. Much like the concept of leaving garbage in jump points to try to prevent pursuit, like the exodus had done.
There is also the issue of if the sail actually does anything like crumple. Except for opening or reeling it in, there really isn't anything to suggest the sail actually moves. I have not seen anything of the jumpship moving while doing so, except for one time that one of the captains had a hoist have issues, and started rolling the jumpship to avoid issues until it could be fixed.
The older fluff had some standard jump points that the ship needed the keeper thrusters to prevent being pushed out by solar winds and such, while others needed to use them to avoid being pulled in to the system. Gravity isn't absolute zero at all the standard jump points.
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Wick
12/16/20 10:19 PM
173.247.25.195
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Force is mass x acceleration. Jump sails are inherently very light so this presents a problem. I don't know how light, but if the Sunjammer was used as comparison with a 38m square sail at 70 pounds scaled up to the 1024m diameter of an Invader jumpship's sail that would be 40000 lbs, or 20 tons. Compared to a 2000 ton dropship or 150,000 ton jumpship this isn't all that much so it must be given quite a kick by the jumpship that detached it to do more than bounce off the armor that is meant to absorb military grade weaponry. It could damage other jumpsails at low speed, but to damage other craft I'd envision it would have to be moving faster than the jumpship that detached it could probably impel it. Would need more details on the speed it would be impelled, and how stout of an impact the armor could take to know for sure.
One thing that is certain is that the sail itself and loose cables wrapping around another ship is a serious danger, regardless of the amount of armor employed. In fact, its given me the idea for an anti-warship/anti-jumpship weapon: a giant sail sized net. If deployed correctly and wrapped around the enemy vessel, it could potentially pin enemy dropships in place until the net was cut or dislodged and prevent unfurling of the jumpship's sail for recharging. It may even block the fighter bay doors. The warship and dropship weapons could still engage, but if you're trying to fight an invading force it could be a very effective weapon, trapping the invading force at the jump point for at least some time. (Nets should make good weapons against mechs, too but perhaps the single shot nature has deterred its use on the battlefield.)
I concur that a ship that detaches its sail shouldn't have much concern of damaging itself. The cables and sail would presumably be cast away from the ship, not pulled in. The problem is certainly reattaching a sail (likely done at a repair center) or trying to recover a loose sail in empty space (which I said above is extremely hazardous)
I thought the exodus fleet left garbage not to block jump points (because you'd need a hell of a lot of garbage to cover such a large volume of space) but to strategically place garbage at stars not along their true path so as to deter any pursuers who discovered it.
A jump sail should eventually crumple if detached. They aren't rigid structures so its own gravity will cause it to fall in on itself. I'm not saying it happens right away, it could take years. But it'll start to crumple almost immediately, especially if any pressure is put on it to impel it with sufficient velocity to become missile-like, such that within a day or two it should no longer have the form of a wide open sail, but maybe more like a jellyfish shape which would make recovering it difficult. You'd have to bring some small craft and people in space suits out to grab the cables and pull it back into a sail shape for reattaching to a jumpship. The more time that goes by, the harder this becomes. And if a spin in induced, the cables will eventually start to wrap around it, crushing it into a smaller ball and ruining any chance of recovery.
The sail shouldn't move but maybe their it wasn't folded up correctly after previous jump such that it required the captain to roll the ship to have it unfurl properly. A very light pressure from the engines could also cause it to unfurl more quickly (as well as potentially giving it some acceleration to give you your missile effect.)
The proper orientation for standard jump points is the ship facing away from the star with sail between it and star (and thus the backside of the sail being the charging side.) This is because gravity at that distance is far stronger than solar wind and light pressure, especially to be able to appreciably accelerate masses in excess of 100,000 tons. The early FASA authors had thought of jump sails like wind and solar sails for movement, not charging, so they had the orientation backwards thinking that the inside of the sails had to be the collecting side, and that if it was "the proper way" then solar wind and light pressure would collapse the sail into the back of the jumpship. They hadn't fully considered gravity as being much stronger than solar pressure, and the ship's engines even more so. However, the gravity is still so light that the engines don't need to burn anywhere near their 0.1G capacity to maintain position. (To be honest, in 170ish hours time I don't see why they need to burn at all. They aren't going to fall into the star in such short order, and space is so vast that the slight amount of movement is negligible to both the jumpship and dropship transmit times.) The real reason they have drives capable of 0.1G is for intra-system transit, such as to and from repair yards or to move into proper locations for recharge stations to better service them.
Because the nose-away orientation is how it works at standard jump points, I presume pirate points work the same way. At L1 point this means the jumpship nose is facing the planet; at L2 it means the sail is facing the planet and nose away. On this basis, the natural thought is that L1 should be the more popular of the two so the sail doesn't block your line of sight or any radio/laser communications, nor do dropships need to navigate around the sail if deployed. However this puts the jumpship in poor position if it comes under attack from planetary defense forces: it has to roll up its sail, burn toward the planet (and incoming forces) until they run out of fuel and go away, then flip around, burn away from the planet and back to L1, then flip again and unroll the sail to charge. At L2, it could impart thrust and move a little further from the planet, possibly without even rolling up the sail. Its my understanding that the critical factor in jumps is where you're jumping to, not where are you are jumping from, such that a jumpship that escaped L2 is in no danger of misjump. It merely falls behind the planet in orbit such that it takes dropships a short time longer to reach it. (And if I'm wrong about jump safety, then it could simply finish charging, then burn back to L2 for rendezvous.) If expecting any significant aerospace defenses, L2 is the way to go.
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ghostrider
12/17/20 12:58 PM
66.74.60.165
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The information that was given in the older versions of the exodus, said that the garbage was set to damage any pursuers trying to follow the fleet. But as stated, this was before the rules said jumps move items from the actual spot the ship is coming into.
As a side note, depending on the direction the ship is facing when it comes out of the jump, the material would be shot out at a good speed, as some are a kilometer long or more. Half that is still a ways to send debris from the spot and it would have to be moved before the ship materializes.
The books suggested that the sails could be attached to any ship that uses them, including the original, if the ship returned to the system.
There is a fact that seems to be missing from the escape statement that is over looked. Who says you have to use the planet you are raiding's L points? You invade earth, you can use Mars L points to jump back out. Might take a while, but it may well be easier then going back to earth's.
Pirate points also form elsewhere in the system on rare occasions. Hell, you may well having a few choices with just the moon's location as well. I am saying this would be a very long shot, but possible.
Just curious, but where is the information that says the nose away position is standard at jump points?
Nose out would mean the ships sails at the rear would need gravity to pull it into position, over the outbound pressure. And I do understand this is when the deploy the sail, as the ships would probably not be in any position like this when it just jumps in.
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Wick
12/17/20 06:09 PM
173.247.25.195
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I just used L1 and L2 as examples of pirate points because they're the most likely to be employed. Any point in the solar system could be used, but carry greater risk. L3, L4, L5, or the Legrange points for other planetary bodies can all be used but part of the ploy of pirate points is to surprise the defending force. So the closer you jump to target, the more likely your success.
The exceptions would be points in which an intervening body would eclipse the incoming radiation signature from detection by the host planet. I.e., a straight line drawn between the planet and blocking body with the jumpship on the opposite side. The planet's L5 point is blocked by the host star, assuming a single star. The L1 point of an interior planetary body or the L2 point of an exterior work as well but the alignments would be very short-lived, possibly no more than a few minutes. I don't know how long the radiation signature is detectable though so it may not hide the jumpship for long. In any case, artificial satellites or other occupied locations in the system could perceive the radiation signature, so trying to hide the jumpship behind another object might only work well for systems with a single inhabited body with little intra-system technology, no mining bases elsewhere in system, and not much traffic at the zenith or nadir points. (Backwater type worlds.)
Quote:
Just curious, but where is the information that says the nose away position is standard at jump points?
Nose out would mean the ships sails at the rear would need gravity to pull it into position, over the outbound pressure.
I think you just answered your own question. The gravity is stronger than outward solar wind or light pressure.
Strategic Operations p 124 explicitly defines the nose-away orientation, for the gravity > light pressure > solar wind reason.
Not quite sure where the first indication of nose-toward was given. Perhaps the cover artwork of Dropships & Jumpships which shows a prominent shadow on the interior of a deployed sail, indicating the craft is facing toward the star. Neither Aerotech or Aerotech 2 describe the orientation, nor either of the D&J books. As far as I can tell it was artwork myth. Maybe FASA had always envisioned nose away but never gave this detail to artists, and it took on a life of its own until Strategic Ops finally set everyone right.
By the way, flipping through the books I see that Battlespace p44-45 describes damage to anything within 2000 meters of a jumpship performing a jump due to "tidal stresses" (presumably something akin to gravitational waves.) So a detached sail that had enough time to make it this far away could presumably be propelled by the tide. Technically the rule describes damage to other craft in the vicinity, up to 3D6 points within 100 meters, but since sails are so fragile I'd assume they must be at, near, or just over the 2000m threshold to be projected away and not seriously damaged. This rule may be redefined in later game books. I really don't follow aerospace rules all that much to know. (Strategic Operations p 89 gives damage to units mounting KF drives in adjacent hexes rather than defining an actual safe distance in meters, and aerospace hexes are so gigantic as to not be practical when talking about propelling a detached sail with the tidal backwash of hyperspace jump.)
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ghostrider
12/18/20 03:23 AM
66.74.60.165
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Ok. Strategic Ops is one of the books I do not have. So it was addressed in the books at a later time. Good to know.
The practicality of anything sent out is a danger to anything, especially at the jump point. There really isn't much friction to slow it down, unlike anything in the atmosphere or closer to gravity. And this is an issue even weeks or months after one is left. Unlikely, but possible a jump ship arrives and only has a few minutes to an hour (maybe longer or shorter, I really can't say) to react to a sail, or anything for that fact, coming towards it.
Wow. A simple device that fires off hard to detect objects at ships that arrive at a jump point... Might be something to look into. Hmmm....
I don't know why, but I have always imagined the ship facing the star, so it looked like a radio telescope.
But this leads to other questions, like stations.
I will have to see if I can find the information about the detachable sails. They hint at it in the Aegis warship. It suggests it became standard, but not sure if it was all warships, or just that one model.
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Wick
12/18/20 06:34 PM
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I'd say its a danger only in the event of collision. You have to remember that space is very vast. The odds are exceptionally low that for two things to collide in deep space without a controlled thrust by one of them to aim into the other or being specifically aimed at a target. A detached sail obviously has no controlled thrust of its own and its unlikely the jumpship crew is aiming it at another craft (especially if its intended to be recovered.) Could it happen? Sure. Two satellites collided in Earth orbit several years back, but low Earth orbit is many magnitudes smaller volume of space than a standard jump point and a lot more crowded. The odds are so remote that I don't think jumpship crews lose any sleep over it.
And I don't know if the damage would be so severe or not because while its 20-40 tons, its also a kilometer or in size (unfurled) so the force a "missile jump sail" would have on another object is quite poor because there isn't much pressure behind it. Hit an empty can with an unfolded piece of paper as fast as you can and it just bounces off. Now wad it up and throw it at the can and maybe you knock it over. The sail needs time to collapse under its own gravity to condense into a density that could destroy another ship. If it was shot off with any velocity, by the time it collapses it should have moved sufficiently far enough away from the jump point. And because of the nose-away orientation, the sail would most likely be falling toward the sun, accelerating the entire time. (Though there's nothing to stop a ship from pulling in its sail, reorienting itself, deploying its sail again and then releasing it in a new direction. This is rather counterintuitive though.) I think the scenario is only practically if a ship jumps in closer to the host star than the ship that detached it, along direct a straight line between the two or a dropship that just happens to be passing through the same point in space on its way to or from another ship.
Getting tangled up in the sail or having its cables wrap around your ship still sounds like the more likely scenario than actual critical damage to the ship.
On the other hand I made a mistake about it being detectable on radar and easily avoidable. Strategic Ops says the photovoltaic coating absorbs almost all electromagnetic waves and its as black as a space itself so another craft would have difficulty seeing it coming if it were in line to be hit. On the other hand, the artwork suggests that the interior of a sail can be painted. There's a piece of artwork of a jumpship with the Spirit Cats logo filling the interior of a jump sail in some of the Dark Age era material (Turning Points Irian at the least, but I feel like I've seen it in some others.) Observers could possibly see it moving away, but not toward them.
And actually, a radio telescope would still have the dish shape of the sail's interior needing to face away from the star, meaning nose-away orientation. The dish shape of a receiver is to focus incoming signal onto a single point for collection. For a solar sail (or wind sail for boats) its to collect light pressure (or wind pressure) for locomotion. For photovoltiac jump sails, you don't need a dish - any shape works. The outside of the sail is just as efficient as the inside would have been. Its dish shaped because that's the manner of how its hooked up to the jumpship - with long cables at the edges. On the surface, it seems possible someone could design a jumpship such that it deployed its sail from its bow (nose) instead of stern (engine) but deploying it would be more difficult as gravity would fight the crew as they tried to push it further away. The sail would need thrusters on the edge (meaning more weight, more fuel, and more complexity in furling/unfurling) so its just not practical. It wouldn't need a hole in the middle of the sail for station keeping thrust to pass through though.
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ghostrider
12/19/20 12:22 PM
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The ability of a strong wind to send a piece of straw thru a tree trunk is real.
I was not saying you could target a sail that was pushed out, but the fact remains that it is very possible that a ship can be hit by objects sent out in such a fashion.
Which brings out the thought of the ice moving jumpships of old. The asteroid would be destroyed in the first jump. I would never reach the targeted system intact, even if it was the one for the first jump.
The thought of the junk field at a jump point for the exodus has come up that the junk itself may have been more to discourage a large fleet from trying to follow, then a single ship. With the new rules, a single ship would move the junk before it arrives. But what happens when a fleet of ships comes in? Enough space between the ships to allow the debris to be sent into other ships, and their 'shock' waves would do nothing to stop or reverse the course of the junk. Not as efficient as say the old version that implied materializing around the junk, causing internal damage.
I have seen the symbols painted on jumpsails in pictures too. It does make you wonder if that lessens the power absorbing rates of the sail. It is the pictures that make really implies the cone shape of the sail itself.
Another though came up is jump points like the ones around the Defiance plants. Very busy ones would have had issues with moving junk, though this may be more complex then needed in the game. Still annoying that they suggested being able to mine a jump point in the older days, then removed it as it was getting in their way of further warfare.
One last thing for now. I understand the sail would never be useable again, but the same can be said about a bullet. It becomes a piece of shrapnel after use. But it still does the damage. The question, if worth chasing, would be, how fast does an item move when forced out of their position by a jump emergence? It has to clear the jump field before the ship arrives. Still not familiar with the time it takes to complete the junk.
Still. The original concept of the detachable sails with the new force mechanism changes the ability to reuse the detachable sails of old. It is nice to get some feedback for it.
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Wick
12/22/20 06:07 PM
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I'm not sure the straw through a tree trunk analogy works here. Wind is a motion of molecules in the air and propels the straw into the trunk because in hurricane conditions the force of wind is so strong - the force being a wave of denser air moving through less dense air at high velocity. Of course, air at the levels where trees grow is much, much more dense than the near vacuum of space. The jumping ship would have to move "something" to impel the jump sail. I don't see the sparse mix of hydrogen, helium, and subatomic particles as being able to easily move something massing 40 tons at any appreciable velocity. The vast majority of any initial velocity it got would be the action of detaching itself and any engine thrust the jumpship put on it after being detached (which couldn't be too much or it would destroy the sail.) The acceleration of gravity toward the star would be the only thing that could accelerate it up to damaging speeds in my opinion. Ultimately, it probably resolves as gravity > detaching action > station keeping engine thrust > jump emergence.
I think junk in the jump point would operate the same way. The incoming or outgoing ships can barely move it compared to gravity's influence, minus examples that happen to cross behind a jumpship or dropship's engines and get blasted out by the thrust the fusion engines produce. Small pieces of junk could be propelled at very high velocities in this manner. Jump sails are not at all small pieces though.
I suspect the ice jumpships from a hyperspace bubble around them to encapsulate the ice, much as later jumpships encapsulate dropships and presumably any other matter in the very near vicinity of the craft. This is something that I'd have to reread to be sure of though.
You could conceivably mine a jump point, if the mines were self-propelling. If they're just floating in dead space then I'm not sure its efficient without millions of them. A single homing mine that can thrust at even a low speed (say, 0.1G) has more than enough time to reach a charging jumpship. They're basically sitting ducks for 6 or 7 days and at a very possible speed (0.1G or higher) the mine can take them before they recharge. Only its own weapons or the weapons of accompanying dropships can save them. Mining a jump point with one mine, and being able to unmine it does not seem like a very Herculean task. (In fact, the fiction doesn't have enough mining in my opinion. Its stupid easy and a highly effective deterrent to invasion.)
Jump sails are opaque - Strategic Ops is very clear the collecting side is black as soot so as to absorb as many photons as possible. Painting the interior side would not affect the collecting side. However, it was my understanding prior to Strategic Ops that they went unpainted on the basis that paint adds weight and you want a light weight sail so its quicker and easier to furl and unfurl it. Its possible though that the Spirit Cats image is part of the construction of that particular sail, like how using different colored thread in a wind sail wouldn't add any more weight over white thread. So while it looks like a painted Spirit Cats logo, but its actually a tinting of the sail components itself. It's a kilometer in diameter and being viewed from a few kilometers away, so its hard to say exactly what it looks like up close.
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ghostrider
01/26/21 12:44 PM
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A question came up while reading the modernizing of the Flashman.
Did Comstar have factories that produced Star League items before the clan invasion running?
I don't know if the cargo found with the mechs they had, would have had enough parts to keep all the units in working order. XL engines would not be stocked heavily with any base, as few were 'found' in large numbers in any leaugue cache that was in the game books. The omni 25 was the only one that I can think of that did, and that was to introduce the Savanaha Master.
Things like the ER versions of weapons would need to be worked on after sitting idle for years, and as such, the parts would be hard to find. As the game suggests that every part requires servicing more then often then not, this comes to mind.
It also begs to ask why the houses didn't attempt to get capital weapons from comstar, once the found out comstar could build war ships and had been keeping a fleet as well. This should also have had a large increase of battlestations being built in the Sol system, once the clans said Terra was their goal.
Logic failure?
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Wick
01/26/21 02:42 PM
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Yes, some of the factories on Terra never stopped producing material, others were mothballed and reopened in the 3030s after the public unveiling of the ComGuards. It is widely assumed that Terran factories could continue to make Star League era tech, including XL engines, throughout the Succession Wars but ComStar controlled the supply such that they never found their way to the Successor States. ComStar needed so little of it until after Tukkayid that most of the advanced tech lines were simply mothballed. A notable example was the King Crab KGC-000, which ComStar resumed production of in 3005: it mounts Ferro-Fibrous armor and CASE, indicating that at least these two technologies were still known to ComStar and Terran factories well before the discovery of the Helm Memory Core.
Certainly any Star league era units would need maintenance and refurbishment. But ComStar had a lot of acolytes making sure mechs were always in pristine order. They literally worshipped Star League-era tech after all. And the fact that the Successor States were completely shocked when the ComStar Guards started showing up at HPG stations in 200+ year old mechs that appeared brand new indicates that the ComStar acolytes did their job well. They also kept some of their least desirable mechs in storage for a while before trading them off the Draconis Combine to make peace over the Rasalhague question. ComStar's "trash" was the Combine's treasure because they were still superior in both firepower and maintenance compared to other 200 year old Combine units.
There were a few things the Successor States went to ComStar to buy after no longer being able to make it themselves. Mobile Long Tom Artillery vehicles for example. And they sold a lot of stuff though the New Earth Trading Company as a front, though all of it was just slightly better than what the Houses could build themselves. I don't think they ever sold level 2 stuff on purpose, though there are canon examples of Level 2 mechs being shipped to the Combine in error. Regarding really big tech like Warships, its my understanding that although the Houses discovered the presence of a ComGuard fleet, they assumed they were all only Star League ships and never suspected ComGuard had construction capacities until the Jihad. They also know of the Explorer Corps, indicating ComStar had never lost the means to build standard jumphips but I don't think they knew it was composed of some unique designs, both Jumpships and Dropships. I don't know as much about battlestations, but I think ComStar wrongly assumed that Terra was absolutely impenetrable as it was: and it took WOB deception to land troops and take control of the SDS stations. What battlestations existed were greatly diminished first by the WOB invasion in 3058, the Allied Mercenary Command's attack in 3067, Case White in 3068, and finally the coalition's capture of Terra in the late 3070s. If ComStar had been building stronger naval defenses to prepare for the Clans, any gains were lost during the WOB struggle and the JIhad.
However, regarding Karagin's Flashman, I found no evidence that Krupp ever produced the Flashman on Terra. All indications are that it was only built at RPI's factory on Wasat, which was destroyed in the First Succession War, and at Defiance on Hesperus II, which survived but had to downgrade to the 7K at about the same time. It seems the 7K was built off and on throughout the Succession Wars, rather than continuously. Defiance resumes production of the 8K in 3055. ComStar further contracts Defiance to build them the 9C, and when the WOB takes over Hesperus II they refit the line(s) to make 9Bs and later 9Ms. According to my notes, both lines are destroyed in 3074 and the Flashman is no longer built again. But since his writeup says ComStar is building it, it's tough to argue that they couldn't. Who knows what mech specs they secreted away during the First Succession War: the Flashman is definitely a candidate. If Karagin says Krupp factories in Germany start churning out new Flashmen in late 3057 or early 3058 based on RPI specs, that's certainly believable. Or perhaps ComStar traded salvaged Clan tech to Defiance in exchange for the 8K specs to build Flashmen at Krupp. Either explanation works.
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ghostrider
01/26/21 03:27 PM
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I got the question when I read the Flashman.
Wasn't concerned if they were built on Terra or not. The idea that Comstar could build advanced weapons was the thing. And with this, the idea that they did not upgrade to clan tech would extend from this. Cost would not be so much of a concern, as they had the ability to upgrade easier then the others. And for those thatwant to argue, comstar/wob did have their i upgrades on things, that would have cost even more since the research had to be done before hand, unlike just reverse engineering the clan tech.
It is odd that the houses did NOT even try to get comstar to start supplying the SL tech, so they could upgrade a little sooner and faster during the clan invasion.
The WOB Jihad is something that I would like to forget they did.
Once comstar learned the clans intended to hit Terra, starting to build battlestations or satelites with anti warship weapons should have happened. Even with WOB taking Terra, this should have happened. Instead they did nothing at the time, only to come up with the SDS systems. Once discovered they could make the capital weapons, it would have been to Comstars advantage to try and get some weapon positions along the path the clans were taking, in order to slow or possible stop the invasions. Even if it was nothing more then to fire capital missiles at the clan ships then flee. I know this would have jeopardized their ruling clan worlds. I think they would have found a way around it, like building a house storage area that the SL didn't know about, meaning no clan records of it. WOB would be more likely to have done this, as they knew the houses would have to deal with them once the clans were stopped, or even having to deal with the clans once the truce was over with.
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Wick
01/27/21 03:16 PM
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As far as building Clan tech, that was still outside of ComStar's capacity. Undoubtedly they began reverse engineering it like the Houses were as soon as they got their hands on examples, but the WOB schism and then the loss of Terra undoubtedly derailed such plans.
One thing that should have happened, not just with the ComGuards but the AFFC (and in turn AFFS and LAAF), DCMS, and to a much lesser degree the RKA, is to refit existing mechs with Clan tech. We've been given a few unique mixed-tech models here and there, and even a few limited-run production models, but it should have been much much more common. Canon describes regiments with 30-50% of mechs refit with Clan tech, with some companies (merc and House) at 100% refit state, but we haven't enough examples to justify it. The development line derailed things by presenting entirely new mechs during the Civil War and Jihad eras instead of refitting existing models with a Clan tech weapon or two. You can't tell me the Lyrans didn't have Griffins mounting Clan ER PPCs or the Dracs with Panthers mounting the same. A TRO Clan Invasion Refits book is badly needed. I'd argue for a TRO Golden Century Refits book too, where Clan tech is applied to SLDF models, since TRO:GC didn't cover enough of them (and wastes time covering a few rare models like Lynx and Spartan while overlooking much more common models.)
Possible explanation for ComStar not building new anti-warship tech was the worry of such tech landing in the hands of the WoB. Until the WoB suprised them and took Terra, I bet ComStar felt they had enough Warships, solid enough SDS defenses, and control over Terran factories to produce replacement vehicles in the 15+ years they expected to have. Instead they only got 6 years of factory production, and lost half their military strength to the Blakists, and were left with practically no money as the WoB freezed their assets and did their darnedest to keep ComStar from earning any money from HPG services. After 3058 the ComGuard was in no means to do anything to build new defenses to fight the Clans.
Prior to 3058 they did bulk up some defenses along the obvious direct path to Terra, particularly at Tukayyid and Orestes. Maybe with more time they'd have helped the Lyrans or Dracs protect some important worlds in the path (Vega and Dieron for example) but the focus changed to Operation Bulldog and the goal of (semi-)permanent ceasefire with the Clans. I think if the WoB didn't exist, or their takeover of Terra had failed, and Bulldog had never happened, then ComStar very likely may have buffed up defenses prior to the resumption of the invasion in 3067.
I don't think WoB would have given any support to the Houses , and possibly crippled attempts of the secularized ComStar do so. They were set in the old mindset that technology is a relic of the Star League not to be handled by the unwashed masses.
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ghostrider
01/27/21 07:58 PM
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That is one of the logic flaws of the game.
Some mercs used more clan tech then houses. This should not be. The original excuse for clan tech being left alone was a lack of understanding to just maintain it. Yet the FC and DC did not outfit their elites with the tech? They did have some understanding, and from a few posts about it, could make the tech (which was too costly).
This should have been done with the elite guards around the leaders at the very least, yet nothing.
Before Phelan brought the wolves in exile to the Kell hounds, the hounds had a large chunk of clan tech inserted into their units.
The SDS system is a sore point. I find it costly to use it, moreso then using normal capital weapons. Blowing up dropships when ramming other ships is far to much bs in my opinion. Yes, it could be done as a last resort, but to be the main defense sounds completely wrong. It also shines light into the supposed inability to use remote control for things.
Comstar and WOB were both able to build anti ship weapons. They both had the tech even before the 3000's, as they had their archive of tech. WOB came out with the super range KF drives. And honestly, they would have definitely started building clan tech, as it would even the playing field with the clans. I had overlooked Comstar losing earth before the truce. It still sounds wrong that they would not have put up capital weapon platforms around Terra, given the fact that tensions were going to explode. It was only a matter of time before the FC hit one of the other houses, probably the DC et again. Given the idea that Walterly was concerned about the FC, defense platforms would be a way to slow down or even stop an FC invasion of Terra. Deploying the Comguards was a way to make the FC think twice before even trying an assault. Outnumbered, but having the HPG to call reinforcements if needed, would leave local FC forces hurting. The black box might have altered some of it, but it seems to have disappeared from the game for a while.
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Wick
01/28/21 03:54 PM
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Some mercs had access to more Clan tech or earlier than House counterparts because the Houses tended to concentrate their better troops closer to Terra, often assigning Mercs to guard the flanks and periphery borders. But you're right that the Houses should have made better use of it. (Some mercs with only minimal tech support would even trade Clan tech the the House militaries in exchange for repair services or spheroid parts of which they could make better use.)
The elite units typically do get a high percentage of refits though. You can see it in the TO&Es of books like FM: Updates where the Davion Heavy Guards RCT get 25% of Clan-tech while the march militias get zero. The problem is we don't have enough mixed-tech models in the 3050s to know what these refits may have been. I'm sure a lot of them were unique models (Allard's Wolfhound for example) but there's got to be a few that were common enough to have been replicated multiple times. That's why I mentioned the Griffin and Panther - two ubiquitous units that would have easily adapted a Clan ER PPC in place of Spheroid models. There's got to be 10 to 20 of each of them as common as they are. But with no TRO entry and no RS they effectively don't exist. I don't care to know all of the undoubtedly unique models floating around in the 3050s, but those that should be comparatively common should have been given TRO and RS treatments.
Combined AFFC outnumbered the ComGuards a little shy of 4-to-1 prior to the Clan arrival, maybe 3 to 1 pre-Tukayyid (after the Houses took their lumps) and about 5 to 1 after Tukayyid. On the surface, this seems like the ComGuard were no match for the AFFC at any point (and arguably none of the other houses) but you have to remember that the Houses had a lot more ground to defend against each other, ComGuard's equipment was in much better shape overall (though some elite House units were on par), ComGuard had superior transport capacity, and unknown to the Houses, a large navy as well. Really the only drawback ComGuard had was lack of experience. If needed ComStar could pull back all their forces to defend Terra in just a few months and could unleash their warship fleet to destroy any hostile dropships, while protecting Terra with a defensive force far superior to anything the Inner Sphere had seen since Amaris. While no doubt the FedCom was a concern for the ComGuard, it was more of a long-term concern than immediate danger, since the AFFC couldn't muster the force necessary to take Terra without potentially losing their empire to the militaries of the other Houses. So from ComStar's perspective, Terra remained effectively invincible against against the Successor State militaries.
(Focht noticed the Clans had the power to take Terra though, which is why they had a proxy fight at Tukkayid as neither side wanted to risk waging war on Terra itself. If ComStar granted safecon, the Terran SDS and ComStar fleet would have served no purpose in aiding the defense; and if they had refused safecon, the Clans would have simply destroyed all of the SDS and likely ComStar's fleet as well, leaving ComStar in a severely weakened state to defend against the next faction to try to take Terra. Focht was right to throw his entire military, minus the navy and Terran defenses at the Clans.)
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ghostrider
01/28/21 05:36 PM
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In 2775 the SLDF created a new ECM system that jammed the primary communications links with static, forcing the SDS system to use backup links.
Interesting find in the wiki. One discussion had asked about the Dragoons assault on Terra was destroyed by the SDS system, and why ECM didn't stop that from happening. The statement above suggest it should have happened.
After the Word of Blake took control of Terra, they knew that ComStar would never allow them to keep the planet and would eventually retaliate. Given the size of ComStar's WarShip fleet, one of their first tasks was to rebuild the Reagan SDS weapons that surrounded the Terran system as a countermeasure.
This would suggest that the SDS system in the Sol System could not have been there if Comstar had allowed the clans Safecon onto Terra. WOB controlled Terra BEFORE the Truce Batchall. But it still doesn't explain why Comstar wasn't getting it to work before hand. Just leaving it idle would have worked. Walterly would have definitely pushed to get it working when she took over.
And Focht's challenge is not really in question. The idea was necessary, even beyond not using the warships. The fact he had full communications to all his forces, and could not really be disrupted was a major factor in taking down the clans. For the most part, he had information almost immediately as well as the ability to move forces around to where they were needed.
Capital weapons, which under the wiki suggest the SDS system used moon based versions, should have been build by comstar before the clans. It just doesn't make sense they did not have more done.
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Wick
01/29/21 05:14 PM
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The SDS ComStar inherited from the Terran Hegemony/Star League was probably just a tenth of its previous power. Anything described in 2775 can not be for certain assumed in 3058 as much of it would have been destroyed by 2779.
And ComStar may not have had a chance to restore it to anything close to its pre-Amaris state due to lack of resources. Unlike the nearly unlimited resources of the Star League, they had only the Terran system and a few others to draw upon, and cash to buy other material needed. (And buying up large amounts of material that the Successor States might interpret as being used for an SDS would be a red flag.)
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ghostrider
01/29/21 11:14 PM
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After the Word of Blake took control of Terra, they knew that ComStar would never allow them to keep the planet and would eventually retaliate. Given the size of ComStar's WarShip fleet, one of their first tasks was to rebuild the Reagan SDS weapons that surrounded the Terran system as a countermeasure. Though they were not able to re-create the advanced computer control systems used by the First Star League, the Word was able to combine their experience with advanced computer systems with drone control technology to create very capable fighting systems. These drone fighters, DropShips, and WarShips were able to inflict heavy damage on the Coalition forces that attacked Terra.
So no. The SDS was not as good as the original SLDF system, but effective enough to slow down the invasion of Terra.
But the fact the system information was taken with Terra, suggests it was available.
One point about the houses and the SDS. None of them really knew about it until they tried to hit WOB. Buying up the large amounts of material could well be covered by Comstar/WOB easily as they were building HPGs and such in the periphery/deep periphery, as well as other projects. The states could track a lot of it, but not all of it, especially when the materials were moved to say the other side of the IS. Or transferred off in route.
Comstar did have issues with pirates capturing HPGs as stated in the books, though I would have to really look up which one said it.
If you really want to be serious, Comstar was still building jumpships that most did not seem to know about, as well as kept other things going as well. Also, the first time the houses went up against the SDS was invading Huntress. The wiki states that the DEST strike against the facility prevented losses.
But this still doesn't explain why there were not ground batteries or moon based ones beyond the ones for the SDS. And yes, ground/asteroid batteries are stated in the wiki for the SDS system.
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ghostrider
02/01/21 01:40 AM
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Question came up about weight of ships and thrust a little earlier in a discussion.
How is it every ship besides warships, have to have weight distributed for things like fighters, IE 150 ton cocoons with only 50 tons being actual machinery and the other 100 to cover the heaviest fighter, yet warships don't have to have weight devoted towards dropships attached to it when thrusting or maneuvering?
The idea of a simple Leopard ship verses a Behemoth ship comes to mind. The jumpships have their station keeping thrusters, but aren't meant to move. Yet a warship can have a full load of dropships, 6+ and travel the entire system as well as going into orbit.
These same dropships don't even have to be launched to maneuver in a battle and still not affect the ships performance.
I don't know if they covered this in the newer books.
Any information or even suggestions might help resolve this.
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Wick
02/01/21 04:56 PM
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I haven't seen it covered but it appears that the maximum thrust of warships is powerful enough to accelerate beyond 1g even with the extra mass.
Take the Fox for example, which I think its the most extreme example of warship mass vs dropship mass. If fully loaded with five Overlords carrying 36 100 ton mechs, 6 100 ton fighters, and 50 tons of cargo each, that's 69,750 tons over the warship's base 235,000 ton mass. If unburdened the Fox can cruise at 1.5g safely or 2.5g under maximum force, then the math says that with the maximum dropship weight its acceleration reduces to just 1.16g at cruise and 1.93g at max.
For the purposes of game rules, most transit and combat activities occur at 1g, so unless there's a more extreme example than the Fox, almost all warships are powerful enough to be practically unaffected by the extra mass. For roleplaying purposes it might come in handy to get to (or from) a target quicker but for tabletop it appears to be a moot point. The only time where it seems like it might matter is where the ship's normal speed is just 1g, and any extra mass would slow it to under 1g, but it's likely that all of them have sufficient maximum thrust to overcome the extra weight. The Potemkin is such an example. Fully loaded with 25 fully loaded Overlord-Cs, its acceleration would drop to .77g at cruising thrust but it can still maintain a 1.17g maximum thrust.
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ghostrider
02/01/21 07:03 PM
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The question came up as a partial discussion of fuel consumption for warships, as the weight added to it from an undocked one changes a few things.
Yes. Someone in the group does actually try and keep the concept of having to buy fuel, in order to limit just how much action can be done by mercs in an area. I agree there needs to be some limits, as there is only so much fuel a single system could make and store at any time. The idea of a full scale invasion into a region, not unlike the clans invasion corridors came up in a major campaign push. As being mercs, the concept of having a few fuel tankers in reserve came up and the one jumpship dedicated to moving them had a major malfunction with the jumpdrive. We did not find out until after a few game days, when the ship did not jump into the system. Large Aerowings in combat burn a lot of fuel quickly, and we had to limit some movement until we could get the employer to get us more.
First targets were enemy infrastructure to limit their abilities, which not only include munitions and normal storage depots, but fuel as well.
Then when someone suggested a large warship style fuel/supplies ship, the questions started coming up. We originally just thought to converted premade ships to handle it, but had rolled up that the only fuel transports available ones were a pair of Behemoths, that were only regular ships, not a fuel transport, like the Mammoth dropships describe.
It sounds like more effort then worth it to play the game, but we agree that there has to be a realistic limit. Otherwise, the novels that have issues like this would seem to be just a story line to slow or stop disaster or major victory. Much like running out of ammo.
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Wick
02/02/21 08:13 PM
173.247.25.195
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I think I addressed most of the concerns on the other thread, but in this particular example being mercs it sounds like you had your own dropship and did not negotiate for in-system transport. Thus you have only the fuel you brought with you. In this manner your number of aerofighter sorties is limited because you must keep enough fuel in reserve to make it back home. Mercs aren't typically the linchpin of an invasion, so you weren't attacking a spaceport or anything hoping to capture much fuel. Still, you should have landed with 70-90% of your fuel, assuming you left friendly space fully loaded, and should have had several sorties worth.
A full-scale invasion with many aerofighters and or the need for many sorties may need some tankers though. However, the primary target in any invasion is to capture enemy spaceports. This is not only to deny its use to the defenders and prevent reinforcements from using it if/when they arrive, but to capture the fuel there to ensure yourself continued aerospace superiority.
Its a similar problem to the ammo issue discussed above though. You wouldn't want to run out of ammo or fuel. You should come with as much as you expect to need, but if you run out you'll be forced to do without or scavenge for more. Both ammo and fuel are plentiful, but availability is somewhat restricted: you have to capture depots to gain either, but doing so effectively grants you whatever you needed (excluding some rare custom munitions)
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djweddingnj
02/10/21 08:26 AM
202.47.56.22
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Misunderstood. I thought you were talking about the lam question, not the multiple tag designator/target question.
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ghostrider
02/10/21 12:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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This thread was created to avoid staying completely on one subject, as in the rules for posting, they don't want threadjacking.
With the latest response, we were discussing if the fuel for a warship's thrusters is the same as a dropship, fighter, or even anything atmospheric. It came from the small discussion of ammo sizes for AC 'classes', as an AC 20 has 200 mm, 185 mm and a few others. The 2, 5, and 10 have variations of the actual size of the shells, but they are just lumped together for easier accounting on the players.
There was some questions of the lam, but not too recently. I was hoping that others would ask questions as well, but so far, I guess I am the main one that has the questions come up.
Rereading it some, the question is does a Warship lose speed with dropships attached to it. Everything else in the game seems to lose speed when overloaded, but the warship. Given there is no 'weight' that is assigned to the dropships, like cargo is, I came up in a private discussion. The dropship could be the size of a Leopard, or as large and heavy as a Behemoth, and nothing is required to be set aside to haul them. And the size of the warship doesn't change anything. A Congress could carry a pair of Behemoths and not change in speed. The 760,000 ton Congress could be large enough to avoid the slow down, but that counters everything else.
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Cray
02/10/21 08:27 PM
71.47.151.234
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Have the developers thought of making a hellfire missile type of bomb?
There are multiple canonical TAG-aimed munitions that can be launched from aircraft, such as Arrow IV guided munitions carried on hard points.
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Something that can be dropped from orbit and take out the sensor nets looking for ships?
Any capital weapon with a range of "long" or greater can bombard the ground to destroy such sensors. However, other than capital missiles, all BT weapons have ranges of under 1000km (which is shortened by passage through atmosphere hexes.) The ship doing the shooting would thus have to get pretty close to the planet compared to sensor ranges.
The sensor options for defenders are detailed in Strategic Operations. While radar is easily detected by approaching ships at longer ranges than radar can detect the ships in turn, the other sensors are passive. Drive plume detectors, emergence wave detectors, radio direction finding, and infrared systems all sit quietly and do nothing to give themselves away. A drive plume detector on a planet can thus watch the fusion torch of DropShip or WarShip from tens of millions of kilometers away while the detector itself is a small telescope hidden somewhere on a planet.
So if a WarShip knows where a detector installation is then, sure, it can turn it into a crater 11 hexes across with its naval autocannons, naval lasers, or other capital weapons. But it's darn hard to spot something like that.
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Also related, just what is the range of mechs sensors?
Can they detect a dropship in orbit?
The rules (in TacOps, I think) limit ground vehicle sensor operation to a matter of some ground maps or even (in the case of Active Probes) a matter of hexes. While realistically a DropShip should be naked-eye visible from the ground at dawn and dusk, the rules don't really handle that.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Wick
02/11/21 07:13 PM
173.247.25.195
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While realistically a DropShip should be naked-eye visible from the ground at dawn and dusk, the rules don't really handle that.
Depending how much atmosphere a planet has (or rather, how much of the light it blocks), and the orientation between sun(s), dropship, and planet-bound observer, it could be visible for much more of the day. The fusion drive in particular should be many magnitudes of brightness greater than any light it reflected. A very thick, smoggy atmosphere on the other hand could totally inhibit visibility. Just too many factors to put into rules. Its a roleplaying issue where the gamemaster would have to decide.
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Cray
02/11/21 08:49 PM
174.227.131.132
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Quote:
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While realistically a DropShip should be naked-eye visible from the ground at dawn and dusk, the rules don't really handle that.
Depending how much atmosphere a planet has (or rather, how much of the light it blocks), and the orientation between sun(s), dropship, and planet-bound observer, it could be visible for much more of the day. The fusion drive in particular should be many magnitudes of brightness greater than any light it reflected. A very thick, smoggy atmosphere on the other hand could totally inhibit visibility. Just too many factors to put into rules. Its a roleplaying issue where the gamemaster would have to decide.
Oops, my bad. I meant when the DropShips were in orbit and unpowered. Most of them have the same maximum dimensions of the ISS (~100 meters), which I watch going over once or twice a month. It's only visible at dawn and dusk when observers on the ground are in darkness but the ISS is high enough to still catch sunlight.
When powered, realistically DropShip exhaust should mostly be emitting in x-ray frequencies. They might superheat surrounding air to incandescence, but the exhaust velocity of DropShips means they should usually be emitting invisibly hot hydrogen and helium.
Of course, realistically even a 1970s x-ray telescope should be able to spot those drive plumes across the solar system rather than only tens of millions of kilometers away, but the game had to give spacecraft a chance to be sneaky somehow. And canon novels generally say DropShip plumes are naked eye visible, so "realistically" can take a hike.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Frabby
02/12/21 07:24 AM
84.185.70.157
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I have this head canon theory where BattleTech "fusion" engines include some arcane Kearny-Fuchida effect in their working principle.
Whenever they seem to defy realism as defined by real-world physics as we currently understand them, that's my go-to explanation. Like, why there is no huge, easily discernible reaction drive plume. Maybe BT engines use a Kearny-Fuchida element that makes them work like something resembling an EM drive, i.e. without reaction (partly; they apparently still have/need drive cones).
It can conveniently also explain why you can only dock one DropShip per hardpoint and not carry 39 Leopards inside a single Behemoth - KF shenanigans from the DropShip drives interfere with the KF physics of the jump drive, even when the drives aren't powered.
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ghostrider
02/12/21 01:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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The size of such a 'field' if it does exist, has to be questioned on the impact of the K-F drive.
4 mechs and two fighters in a Leopard should not come even close to an Overlord or Fortress, and the drive would not cause anywhere close to the drive of a Behemoth. (To go to an extreme here, imagine this is carrying a full load of loose engines, such as going to defiance for installation.)
This would also make the Argo complete unable to be used as well.
And there would have to be a limit, as the scout, though it can't carry a behemoth, can carry things like a Mammoth or Excalibur. But yet a Monolith can carry 9 without any issues or size restrictions. It also makes the warship drive questioned as well. The compact core would produce a smaller field, so the K-F boom would have limited. With warships, my limited understanding is The actual size of the ship is not what limits it, but the tonnage, so a ship 4 times the normal width, but only a quarter of the normal height is possible.
Dropship placement on warships seems to have them at the extreme edges of the ships, as tucking them in holes and crevices would make docking and undocking an even larger nightmare.
Though the idea of some sort of 'field' does have some interest in them. New defense, such as a very limited 'ecm shield' or new way to lock onto the unit using it comes to mind. Obviously it would be limited to a fusion engine only, which has to be noted.
A second idea is being able to form a 'core' in the mech and allow it to teleport slightly to another ship, such as a boardig action. Limit to less the 10 km in a zero-g environment. Recharge would make it a one way, so you have to have something to recover it by.
Just thought of a possible reason why it couldn't. Several fighters near a jumpship that is about to jump, or a mech on the hull of the jumpship doesn't prevent or disturb a jump. Even with it being in the K-F boom, as the sail assembly would is larger then the diameter of jumpships.
Though if you go with this, a weapon that can be stuck to the hull of any ship docked on the jumpship could be used to disturb the jump. Increase misjump probability to aborting entirely, and having to recalculate it, due to the additional 'energy mass'.
One thing for the visibility of dropships, the color and style of paint jobs would change the likelyhood of spotting it in orbit. Though the CEWS/ECM systems could very well make a 'cloak' for the ship as well. Would force something like a TEMP pulse system to be created to counter even attacking dropships and fighters from controlled landing.
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Cray
02/12/21 02:48 PM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
It can conveniently also explain why you can only dock one DropShip per hardpoint and not carry 39 Leopards inside a single Behemoth - KF shenanigans from the DropShip drives interfere with the KF physics of the jump drive, even when the drives aren't powered.
DropShips' KF booms would interfere, too, and are vital to helping map the mass inside cargo bays.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (02/12/21 02:49 PM)
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Wick
02/12/21 08:54 PM
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Just thought of a possible reason why it couldn't. Several fighters near a jumpship that is about to jump, or a mech on the hull of the jumpship doesn't prevent or disturb a jump. Even with it being in the K-F boom, as the sail assembly would is larger then the diameter of jumpships.
The sail assembly doesn't have anything to do with affecting the jump, other than that the field obviously must be at least large enough to fully encompass them. In fact the field needs to be somewhat larger.
If you look at the specs, dropships can extend further than the sail arms. Take an Invader-Overlord combination for example, which wouldn't be a particularly rare combination. The Invader is known to be 505 meters in length. There is a very detailed scaled diagram of it, that provides a width of the sail arms at approximately 243 meters wide with a diameter of the ship at the docking collars being about 60 meters wide. 243 minus 60 gives 183 meters of total clearance, but a dropship can only sit on one side or the other. An Overlord is 99 meters in diameter. This means that it will stick out at least 8 or 9 meters beyond an Invader's sail arms.
Another prominent example is the picture of the Tramp and Union from TRO:3057. The Tramp has such tiny sail arms that its obvious larger dropships would stick out beyond the arms if a Union nearly does.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:Tramp.gif
So I don't think weapons, mechs, or fighters attached to the hull would pose any kind of problem leading to misjump. The jump field is clearly a good deal larger than a jumpship's maximum diameter. If big things (dropships) don't affect it, then small things (weapons, mechs, fighters) surely wouldn't. Nor would their mass, as jumpships are always many times heavier than all the dropships it could potentially carry.
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Though the CEWS/ECM systems could very well make a 'cloak' for the ship as well.
But dropships engines give off a huge amount of radiation. Even if not in visible light* it would in other bandwidths, such as infrared, ultraviolet or x-ray. They are also quite large and would not easily hide from ground based radar without a moon or some other object to mask their signature. The concept of a 'stealth' dropship just isn't feasible.
* Art seems to suggest that the exhaust for both aerospace fighters and dropships is highly visible.
Edited by Wick (02/12/21 09:04 PM)
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ghostrider
02/12/21 09:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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Wick.
The suggestion of the fighters and such being inside of the K-F boom was a response to Frabby's idea that fusion engines inside units might affect the jump field.
Frabby: I have this head canon theory where BattleTech "fusion" engines include some arcane Kearny-Fuchida effect in their working principle.
It was my suggestion that if this is true, then the jump would be affected, though might not be that much, so the computer needs some extra time/input to accomidate such a notion.
I want to say an old picture that represents the K-F field extends out in an oval shape around the ship.
The oval shape is why I think stacking some dropships should be ok. Nothing would be outside the field, such as an ice asteroid being moved by Ryan's Iceships would have.
The CEWS/ECM was in response to Cray saying I meant when the DropShips were in orbit and unpowered. It was in response to saying dropships in orbit might be seen without equipment at dawn/dusk.
Sorry I did not emphasize that in my responses.
In the past, I did suggest that the K-F booms had to be larger then the docked dropships, otherwise, they would be ripped apart, as the jump would not have them covered for the jump.
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Wick
02/14/21 05:02 PM
173.247.25.195
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Wick.
The suggestion of the fighters and such being inside of the K-F boom was a response to Frabby's idea that fusion engines inside units might affect the jump field.
Frabby: The fusion power plant of a dropships would presumably still be running to provide power. I suppose they could shut down and run off of jumpship power during jumps though. I'm not aware of this ever being explained though.
However, the Partisan Hull Defense tank's existence seems to imply that smaller fusion engines have no negative impact to jumpship operation, even if larger, dropship-sized fusion engines do.
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The oval shape is why I think stacking some dropships should be ok. Nothing would be outside the field, such as an ice asteroid being moved by Ryan's Iceships would have.
There's an inconsistency in how this has been explained. Dropships & Jumpships says multiple jumpships would line up around an asteroid and create multiple overlapping fields that would jump through space together. Later material says overlapping fields disrupt all jumpships involved.
The retcon is that a single jumpship with a gigantic jump core would move the entire icy asteroid on its own. This implies large dropships, KF booms, and anything else within a few hundred meters of the jumpship (probably even a few kilometers) are safely transmitted through hyperspace. (However, anything not firmly attached to the jumpship may arrive with different momentum and any pilots aboard would likely suffer greater affects of jump nausea, if not severe G-force injuries from dropping to near zero velocity. Fighter pilots throwing up in their helmets or dropship crews being thrown against their bulkheads is not wise, so fighters, shuttles, and dropships should always dock before jumping.)
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ghostrider
02/14/21 07:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Reread Frabby's post. He did not say it was canon to even think about fusion engines having anything to do with K-F drives. It was a thought that the engines might have some odd side effect that could be used in the future. My response was trying to come up with things that would have to be worked on, in order for this to be even remotely acceptable. And in the statement, he said even shut down engines could produce the effect. It wasn't even suggested it could affect a jumpdrive, but just had some properties related to it.
The issues with Jumps and such have always had conflicting information. There have been stories of people not being belted in, being unaffected by the jump. While others seem to suggest that there is some sort of physical 'catapult' effect. As you noted, the abilities seem to change whenever TPTB need it to.
The Ice ships I tend to put into the category like the Steiner Arena. BS fluff put in to make it more futuristic. As the Iceships computers and jump cores can not be replicated, as it would destroy some of the game mechanics, it had to be 'lost'. Then out came the compact cores for warships, which really screwed up the concepts of jump cores. Compact to me has a side effect of being smaller and using less materials. Yet it has not even been applied to jumpships, saving costs, or allowing a larger jumpship using say the Monolith core.
Now I had thought the K-F boom was like the outside edge of a jumpfield at one time. Anything that went beyond it would be left behind. Yet somehow that was not the case, but there are instances that this is true. Having a sail deployed when forcing an emergency jump has left them according to a few stories. Sheared the cables at a certain point.
One example is the Behemoth. The scout says it can not have one attached because of it's size. But yet they claim the docking collar it the reason, not the jump field. So this causes even more questions.
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ghostrider
02/16/21 08:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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Will an EM Pulse stop a jump drive from working for a short while?
Such as trying to stop a ship from fleeing?
The idea of this came up in a discussion and the thought of it was interesting.
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Wick
02/17/21 07:06 PM
173.247.25.195
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Probably. Its controlled by a computer and the EM pulse could shutdown/reboot the drive computer. However its likely this stuff is shielded from radiation.
If the EM pulse happened as the jump field was forming, it would probably cancel the jump and the charge would be lost as the field collapses. The ship is probably physically undamaged (but may have electrical damage inside), as the field never pushed the craft into hyperspace. So I think it could be used to stop a ship from fleeing, but only if the electronics are not shielded. Since mechs can apparently absorb an EMP and keep ticking, I'd assume jumpships could too so it seems unlikely the rules actually allow it.
If the EM pulse occurred while in transit, I'd anticipate the result is a misjump and the loss of all hands. Its my understanding that the jump core doesn't just push you into hyperspace as viewed by a passenger, but to an outside observer it instantly disintegrates the atoms of the craft and reintegrates them at the target site. Without the core operating properly, the ship couldn't reintegrate so it is lost to real space. I could anticipate some kind of limpet mine attached to a jumpship that fires off in hyperspace, but it faces the same shielding problem and since it would destroy the jumpship, its use would be greatly frowned upon.
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ghostrider
02/17/21 09:48 PM
66.74.60.165
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I was thinking of the Tsemp, but it was made during the RoTS times, so wouldn't be around even during the invasion.
But mechs aren't immune to EM pulses. And they would have to be shielded, as PPCs tend to short out things that aren't.
The idea of using such a device is not destruction of the jumpship in my eyes, but to capture it. Might be to arrest a leader, on up to actually taking the jumpship from an enemy. This would also lead to the idea of using something like this to shut down a warship, given a larger sized munition to do so.
Such a time might be if they are trying an orbital bombardment, or moving past a gravity well. Shut down any sort of thrust and hopefully, it will only restart once the ship is too far into a gravity well to get out.
The concept comes from the group trying to make new weapons for the game.
When you are stuck behind enemy lines, and the only way to get anything new to fight with, taking it from the enemy in the field, while they are on patrol is about the only way to even attempt it. Supplies can be done with a hit and run, but we have it set so trying to steal a mech from a base is almost impossible without major effort and supplies. We don't normally carry the 'ideal' equipment with us on every mission. Too risky.
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ghostrider
02/22/21 01:07 AM
66.74.60.165
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As I have still not seen the definitive answer to this, I will ask again.
What is used to move tracked and wheeled vehicles, powered by fusion engines?
Is it actual electric motors?
The description of transmission does not really cover it entirely. The shielding should be removed from the description as there is no real need for it, since a fusion engine does not give off radiation, as it was originally implied to.
The motor question came up again, as the question as to why fusion engines output of power, can fire off any amount of energy weapons, yet the speed of a unit is tied to the size of the engine. I know the rules say it is, but the question still seems to have bite to it.
We have tried to use the fact that amplifiers (with ICE) are only 10 percent of a ton per ton of weapon it powers, but this can be used to suggest the power requirements don't match up properly.
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Wick
02/24/21 05:15 PM
173.247.25.195
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Its my understanding that fusion engines wouldn't work much differently than fission (or coal), in that the heat byproduct is used to convert water to steam, which turns a turbine before being cooled down and recirculated. This is supported by the fact that damaged engines create more waste heat because the water circulation parts have been damaged and it is no longer cooling as effectively. If it were the fusion components themselves damaged, it would no longer align properly to efficiently ram hydrogen atoms together and would produce less heat (and less power) as fewer atoms are being fused. So we can be reasonably sure there is a steam-cycle turbine involved.
A turbine spins, and to create electrical power all you need is a spinning magnet. Hydroelectric dams have been doing this for over a century. A larger fusion engine creates more reactions, and therefore more heat, which means you can have a larger magnet, more magnets on multiple turbines, or more RPMs for existing magnets, any of which produces more electrical current. More electrical current means myomers act with more strength, meaning faster mechs. More electrical current means stronger fans in hovercraft, meaning more speed. What it means for wheeled and tracked tanks is a little less clear.
Wheeled and tracked tanks would presumably use the same concept to power their weapons, but their motive systems could operate in two different ways: They could use electrical engines on each axle or have a drivetrain directly connected to the spinning turbine through a transmission (like what a modern car's engine provides.) Given the numerous examples in canon of fusion-powered tanks having their engines replaced by internal combustion, I'm inclined to say they use a transmission and drive train, since if ICEs can't generate enough power to fire energy weapons then they're likely not powerful enough to generate enough power for electrical motors to propel a tank forward, at least not as efficiently as a drive train would. (But since ICEs can also power mechs, it seems myomers need less electrical power than electrical wheel motors.) I presume the tanks could conceivably have both motor types (i.e., a hybrid vehicle), but this is added weight, added complexity, and added cost - not ideal for 'disposable' military hardware.
The shielding is for thermal radiation, not gamma particles. Gamma is fission byproduct but both fission and fusion create a large amount of heat byproduct. Without the shielding, a tank (or mech) would operate like an oven and cook the soldier(s) inside. The shielding is most likely a water-cooled shell, maybe with thermal reflective blankets separating pilots/soldiers from the engine compartment. Heat sinks are typically placed between engine and humans for similar reason.
Exceptions to full shielding would be mech flamers and jump jets. These presumably have some kind of valve to vent the fusion heat out of the engine core.
Theoretically you're right that the number of energy weapons to be used per turn should be limited to engine size. I think its just a simplification of the game rules that there is no limit.
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ghostrider
02/24/21 06:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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The fact that you don't run out of 'water' when using fusion engines, would suggest that steam driven turbines, would not be the way power is made. The water that it does need is to cause the fusion to happen. Oddly enough, the concept I thought was used is the plasma is circulated around coils, which then create the power, but that sounds a bit off.
The heatsinks seems to be to cool the plasma, so it doesn't over heat, instead of cooling the liquid needed to turn to steam.
The concept of an ICE not being able to produce the power the move the unit and fire off the weapons is a bit inaccurate. They use amplifiers to charge up the energy weapons, but the engine itself does not change in size to do both. The addition of the amps doesn't slow or labor the engine in the game. ICE does use the actual engine to drive the 'wheels' for movement, like a normal car.
The Myomers suggests some sort of electrical power being made, as kinetic energy does not cause them to contract on it's own.
The extra shielding for vehicles seems off, as the engine itself has the shielding to prevent heat from escaping, as the fusion engine in all uses requires the heat sinks they come with. The fact that any engine damage in a vehicle shuts it completely down, would suggest this is already covered. Also, vehicles can not 'store' heat as per the rules. Otherwise, the need for exact heatsinks to match heat from weapons would not be in effect, like a mech doesn't need them.
Also, vehicles crews would be required to use coolant vests and have their compartment sealed like a mechs if heat bleed was a big deal.
Given what you said, it does open up a few more questions.
I keep going back to the idea that the drive train is electric motors turning the motive system.
The main reason for this question comes down to an old question. Why could an ICE not just add extra amps to power the drive train, with a smaller engine?
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Karagin
02/24/21 09:41 PM
70.118.172.64
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Why don't we have turbine engines for vehicles in the game or smaller weighted ICE? The list is endless as to what could be fixed or allowed, but the counterargument will always be that any changes to vehicles will upset the mechs as the king of the battlefield. And I am sure some of you will point to the cool new stuff like Fuel Cells (pretty much just a Light Fusion Engine) and the other things that came with the updated rules, and I will still counter with those items don't correct the issue of better engines for vehicles, they are still not allowing vehicles to follow the same level of advancement as the mechs, which makes no reasonable amount of sense, even for Battletech.
The funny part about that argument is that it's false. My group has run battles, with vehicles that had DHS, endo, and other cool toys. We made no other changes to the rules, same asinine roll to show hit-table, same asinine critical table for vehicles and guess what the vehicles maybe stuck around a turn or two longer than if they didn't have improvements. Keep in mind at one point, brief though it was, vehicles could not use XL engines.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
02/25/21 05:40 PM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
The fact that you don't run out of 'water' when using fusion engines, would suggest that steam driven turbines, would not be the way power is made. The water that it does need is to cause the fusion to happen. Oddly enough, the concept I thought was used is the plasma is circulated around coils, which then create the power, but that sounds a bit off.
The heatsinks seems to be to cool the plasma, so it doesn't over heat, instead of cooling the liquid needed to turn to steam.
Nothing I said discounts the possibility of plasma (which is in fact likely within the reactor vessel)
Nothing you've said discounts the possibility of heated steam turning a turbine to generate electricity.
The problem is converting thermal energy into electrical (or in the case of vehicles, kinetic) energy. Plasma is a hot, ionized gas, which could be used to turn a turbine, too, but channeling plasma into a vortex to spin a turbine while at the same time channeling it into a funnel to force a confined fusion reaction seems overly complicated. Magnetic fields generally force things only in one direction.
Direct energy conversion is a better option, but if you're going to complain that the water could run out then its fair for me to complain of fatigue on photoelectric plates. Maintenance and cost would be greater by using photovoltaics, but so too would energy transfer, so I'll grant that its quite possibly the option used in Battletech as it would allow smaller, lighter engines to generate more power compared to steam-cycle counterparts. Steam-cycle seems more effective for low-cost options like tanks though, and especially for any non-military equipment. It would also make for a good in-universe explanation for regular vs XL engines: steam-cycle could be physically smaller but heavier due to the extra coolant mass, pumps, condensers, and turbine(s) while direct energy conversion would be lighter with less coolant and no extra equipment but the comparatively expensive but mostly empty collector tubes are arranged around the reactor core in such a way that its size would be larger.
I said water, but that's probably not what is used if a steam-cycle is employed. Canon specifically mentions a toxic "coolant" involved. Coolant may not boil off or be expended as quickly, and probably handles temperate extremes better (especially cold, should the mech be stored for a long time in a cold environment, as ice expands when it freezes while most materials shrink instead.) Much more like antifreeze than water. Whether coolant or water, it probably acts a bit like gas and oil in a combustion engine - with a large enough fuel tank you could run the unit for several hundred hours before needing replenishment.
Still, I'll concede that direct energy conversion is what Battletech uses, rather than steam turbines based on greater energy output (more power captured by the collectors and less lost as waste heat.) It seems a lot more expensive and terribly fragile in my opinion, but they've got a few hundred years of advancement to solve the problems humans in 2021 haven't yet figured out. And this doesn't answer your question at all, since it would make sense for electric motors to have power amps to provide extra speed, even if it was electrical power stored up and discharged quickly for a brief speed boost (rules-wise, similar to MASC.) A turbine-powered drive train better explains the maximum speed tied to engine output.
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ghostrider
03/05/21 08:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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An odd thing came up talking about the Scorpion mech in the wiki section that needs to be addressed.
How is it, the developers suggest that armor can be welded onto the mechs head, yet it isn't really possible to do so with other units.
I do know there is 1 point of armor that can legally be put on the head, as the scorpion mech only has 8 points, but it sounds like the put on more.
This also runs along the idea of a cyclops having armor welded around the cockpit, and as the fluff says, 'gives it a look like it is wearing a helmet'.
This was done before the modular armor concept came out, so that doesn't count here.
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feedtalefive
03/06/21 10:54 AM
49.15.241.117
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I did know the arrow IV had tag guided missiles, but they did have tag guided aircraft and Aerofighter bombs? Ok. Good to know.
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Karagin
03/06/21 11:27 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
I did know the arrow IV had tag guided missiles, but they did have tag guided aircraft and Aerofighter bombs? Ok. Good to know.
TAG can guide in ARROW IV, the TAG is nothing more than a glorified targeting laser that allows special munitions to be guided in. Yes, there are TAG-guided bombs and missiles for both mechs, vehicles, and aerospace fighters.
MAXIMUM TECH and I am sure the newer rules books have what all TAG can be used with. Here is the Wiki info to aid you:
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Target_Acquisition_Gear
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/06/21 12:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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Another question came up.
Do water bound naval vessels gain the additional cooling bonus that mechs do for standing in water?
This is saying they are in the water, not beached from low tide.
It should as it would be surrounded by the water at all times.
I could see restricting hydrofoils to just allowing it when they are not using the foils, as the water contact should not be enough to allow the bonus.
As for the TAG unit with guided munitions, the bombs came into the game after the clan invasion. Much like incendiary LRMs were not originally part of the game, they were added in when the logic suggesting they should be came up. The Fire Control system for guided missiles would appear to be a downgrade of it, though not sure about this. It is odd that it serves the same function, but on a more limited scale.
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Wick
03/06/21 05:27 PM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
An odd thing came up talking about the Scorpion mech in the wiki section that needs to be addressed.
How is it, the developers suggest that armor can be welded onto the mechs head, yet it isn't really possible to do so with other units.
I do know there is 1 point of armor that can legally be put on the head, as the scorpion mech only has 8 points, but it sounds like the put on more.
This also runs along the idea of a cyclops having armor welded around the cockpit, and as the fluff says, 'gives it a look like it is wearing a helmet'.
This was done before the modular armor concept came out, so that doesn't count here.
Fiction doesn't always strictly agree with rules.
You could also interpret it that over the course of several centuries some mechs are more susceptible to metal fatigue or structural problems than others and need ad-hoc fixes, such as welding on more plates of armor to heads to bring the armor integrity back up to 8 or 9 points to help withstand a PPC or AC/10 shot. Without such fixes the armor may only provide 6 or 7 points of defense after being worn out in a few hundred years of combat use.
Cyclops has extremely delicate (and expensive) control and communication electronics in the head. Giving it a curve shaped helmet may deflect some shots and save the techs some repair effort. (Or at least the impression of providing that extra bit of defense even if it doesn't actually do so.)
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Quote:
Do water bound naval vessels gain the additional cooling bonus that mechs do for standing in water?
Yes. The rule books are clear that heat sinks operating underwater provide double cooling. The examples it gives are always for Battlemech's walking into or underwater, but when describing the heat sink devices themselves it merely talks in terms in heat.
But as the construction rules for vehicles demand single heat sinks and enough to cool all energy weapons aboard, its a moot point. Say a submarine packed two Large Lasers and a fusion engine. Despite gaining the ability to sink 20 heat per turn, it still requires 6 additional heat sinks to cover the 16 total normally produced by the large lasers. In a radical rules explanation, if such a sub rested on the bottom of a lake bed and lake bed was then drained (i.e. dam destroyed) then it would still have to mount enough heat sink capacity to fire both large lasers when no longer submerged. (Of course, it can no longer move but can still fire.)
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ghostrider
03/06/21 10:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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The issue with the deflection of some shots for the extra armor on the cyclops is the fact that by adding on armor, it violates the maximum armor value it can have. The cyclops already has 9 points before adding on more. It is something the game does more often then it should. It violates their own rules in the TROs.
The scorpion mech not having armor on the bottom side for the cockpit area is violating their own rules, but it is not in the main area for it, so it isn't that big, but it suggests yet again, the game does not follow it's own rules. 0 armor in any location, IE under a mech, should mean 0 armor on the head. There is no separate hit location coming from the bottom of a unit, as even land mines hit leg armor on mechs and normal armor on tanks.
As the open frame of a vehicle, which is used to explain why heat build up from missiles and ballistics, should mean land mines should automatically do critical damage from land mines, as it would be 'bypassing' the normal armor, given the scorpion concept. Even soldiers that are in foxholes that a vehicle goes over would result in the same thing.
Or at least it would seem in my logic.
I wasn't trying to get around the need for the extra single sinks in a waterborne unit for the necessary sinks. Not sure when they added in the fact they can benefit from the sinks in water was the key. But thinking about it now, it is logical to think it was asked for that very reason.
And feedtalefive, the c3 master also functions as a TAG, in case you didn't know. Only the master does.
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Karagin
03/07/21 10:48 AM
70.118.172.64
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There are Cowling Rules in the old MechForce UK magazines and all it really did was add a couple of points. The head is the weakest point on a mech vs crap for armor that some of the mechs have.
Bottom Armor for vehicles/aerospace fighter and quad mechs is an area of contention that has been brought up since oh...1987 in an issue of StarDate magazine and the answer given was that the sides/rear armor includes the bottom and the center torso armor the quads did the same. Does it really address things? No, but adding bottom armor would be forcing them to re-write the vehicle's damage system and we have all seen how they are against giving vehicles anything that would really improve them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/07/21 11:24 AM
66.74.60.165
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For those of us that don't search the internet for every last rule change, thank you for letting us know about the MechForce concept. I don't think the main rules have reflected this, but the 9 max armor points on the head seems to make sure you have some chance to take one down if lucky, besides the thru armor crit.
I can understand why the bottom armor isn't really dealt with on ground vehicles, as it should be rather rare to be able to hit it without the vehicle turned over.
TOG (Terran Overlord Government) game deals with bottom armor as they have anti grav tanks that do expose the bottom on a pretty regular basis.
It would seem that a note in the main rules should be done in order to deal with vehicles bottom armor. It was proven in real life what land mines would do to vehicles, as they did have to reinforce and shape the bottom armor in order to deal with such things.
But then the game isn't set up to provide more realistic playing, as a single piece of armor on a mech limb needs to be destroyed before you get an internal crit on the limb. I do understand the need to keep it simple.
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Karagin
03/07/21 11:45 AM
70.118.172.64
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The TOG game is called RENEGADE LEGION.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/07/21 06:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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It is very interesting that FASA made Renegade Legion.
I was under the impression that Renegade was part of the TOG story line, like the clan invasion was part of the battle tech story line.
The space combat has a few differences then land combat, but they do deal with needing bottom armor.
Which to be honest, front armor might not be considered the top armor in battle tech, if you really want to get picky.
Now one thing I had always thought about quads, was the cockpit was on TOP of the center torso, so in order to hit it, you would need to go thru the center torso armor and engine compartment to hit it. So it can be logged as just ignorance on my part for thinking that.
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Karagin
03/07/21 08:06 PM
70.118.172.64
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Not to go off the topic, but the RenLeg story is very complex and the setting is one that had massive potential but alas not the appeal that other games did have. I still play CENTURION and do enjoy the backstory of the game system.
Like our chat about the bridge, the cockpit is in the "head" and again it's going to be the point that is the weakest since the pilot or Mechwarrior (depending on what we are going with) is that weakness.
Look at what the game was based on, the mecha all had humanoid chassis and thus spot that was the head or something close to that at the upper top part of the chassis. Or in the case of mecha like the Locust or Marauder, the highest point of the torso.
The mech has to be vulnerable to some extent that a single "headshot" can take out the machine akin to the sniper taking out the gunner etc,...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/08/21 03:48 AM
66.74.60.165
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I guess to avoid more lawsuits from Harmony, they put the cockpit in the head and not the torso like Robotech did.
But there are exceptions to this, such as the Thunderbolt. Sadly, the T-bolt's head isn't better protected, like you would think.
Renegade Legion was fun to play. I think FASA didn't do much to advertise it, like they should have. The damage templates were an interesting concept. Sadly, I didn't get to play it long, as the person that had the game moved away, and at the time, money for anything besides food was non existent for me. I guess I could see if they have it online.
As for Battletech, the concept of the cockpit location is like I said before. I would figure the center torso would be beneath it, even in the quad configuration. SO having an 'open' spot from below is hard to imagine.
But then I didn't design the game.
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ghostrider
03/09/21 12:38 PM
66.74.60.165
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The question of hitting a specific spot on a warship has brought up a question.
Given the fact that in battle, you want to take out the enemy as fast as possible, and the difficulty of the targeting of enemy craft, why couldn't guided missiles be used to hit the same spot on a ship? Weak points like weapons ports or cargo doors could be blown open, and allow further shots to bypass the armor by hitting those weak points with multiple shots?
Bunker buster(armor piercing) style missiles would absolutely be in the game, Even at say 10 million c-bills a pop, it would be worth firing off a few of them to take out a multi billion c-bill item like a dropship and cargo, much less a warship.
I do understand the reason of not making things like this, as it stops the game from being able to attack worlds that do have this sort of defense protecting them, without a major commitment of forces.
Maybe the concept of aimed shots in space warfare might be what I am looking for, It looks like that might resolve this conflict without being the super overpowered solution, if done right.
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ghostrider
03/18/21 12:29 AM
66.74.60.165
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Something is bothering me with the amount of time it takes to get up to normal cruising speed of a dropship going to/from jumppoint/world.
A Monarch dropship being used for normal people moving between stars, would try to keep a 1 g burn throughout most of the trip, with the exception of the flip over, doesn't keep with the speed at which dropships normally move between those points. It was suggested that 1.8 hours is possible to get up to the normal cruising speed of 700,000 kph speed. I don't know if that is 1g/3 thrust, or something else, but this sounds like the rest of the 3.5 days heading out from Terra would be without any thrust.
What am I missing in this equation?
Does the commercial/non military ships burn at a lower thrust keeping closer to the .2 g of a jumpship?
Do they get there even sooner, as they would burn for longer times?
It is doubtful they would burn more then 1 g, as normal people would have problems with it, and some would be higher ranking people that didn't have private ships.
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Wick
03/18/21 07:25 PM
173.247.25.195
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If velocity is is 700,000 kph, or 194,444 m/s, and time is 1.8 hours, or 6,480 s, then the V = a * t formula tells us the acceleration must be 30 meters per second. 1g is 9.8, so this is a little over 3g (3.06)
Dropships (at least military) burn the entire way. Another common physics formula is d = 1/2 a t², which tells you how far you go at constant acceleration for a given amount of time. Since Battletech trips usually involve burning up half the time, flipping for a mostly inconsequential amount of time, then burning down the remainder, we can use this this formula for either half of the trip. Using Terra as as example, which has a 9.12 day transit time, that means 4.56 days (~394,000 seconds) to the flipover. At 1g (9.8 m/s) that gives us a distance of 760.6 billion meters. Doubling that for the full trip gives 1.52 billion kilometers (10.17au), which is exactly the proximity limit for a G2 type star like Terra's Sol. (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jump_Point). Thus the dropships are accelerating and decelerating at 1g for practically the entire distance, and not going into a 'cruise' phase.
The concept of 'cruising speed' doesn't really apply to spacecraft that can accelerate the entire time. The reason cars and planes have a maximum or cruising speed is because there's a limit to how fast they can go (mostly due to wind resistance) to which the engines can't overcome (maximum) or become less efficient to try to overcome (cruising.) In reality spacecraft would have a cruising and maximum limit as well due to compression of microscopic particles ahead of the craft, but its only when you get to speeds approaching several percent the speed of light that the particles become dense enough or impact with enough force to have an appreciable effect - basically a non-factor in Battletech terms. (Though the mathematics indicate large dropships can attain such speeds with a long enough burn. The Overlord can theoretically reach 0.47c at maximum thrust of 2.5G for 66.5 days, if its not coming back from such a trip.)
However, if a dropship accelerated faster than 1g, then it could cruise for a good portion and get there in the same 9.12 days. Although the purpose of burning above 1g is to get there faster, not accelerate up and then cruise so as to arrive at same time. So if accelerating at 3g the entire trip to/from Earth and jump point, turning the formula around gives us a time to flipover of only 2.63 days, or total trip of 5.26 days. So if a dropship left orbit 3 days ago at 1g, and you had a 3g ship at your disposal, you could still beat them to the jump point (with almost a full day to spare)
My assumption is that non-military craft also continuously burn at 1g between planet and jump points. Most are probably less capable of much faster speeds though. 1.5g might be their max - potentially 2 under dire circumstances. The only reason to not be burning is to save fuel, but the trip takes longer. About the only logical reason I see for doing this would be if your jumpship wouldn't be fully charged if you arrived under constant 1g thrust, so you either accelerate/decelerate at less than 1g or burn at 1g for less time and coast part of the way rather than showing up to the party early. Most non-military craft probably only go above 1g when they are under attack or they are running late to meet up with a jumpship.
Because of the slower transit drives, a jumpship built in orbit of a planet or needing to return to a planet's orbit for maintenance takes quite a long time. If a jumpship at 0.1g had to return to Earth's orbit, it would be a nearly 29 day trip.
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ghostrider
03/18/21 08:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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Ok. So the 1.8 hours is not 1 g, but higher for thrust. That explains a lot. It is in the best interest of a civilian passenger transport to keep 1 g as much as possible, as normal people don't handle the lack of comfort, ie gravity, for very long.
I was also under the impression with the 700,000 kph being the standard for maximum speed.
As this was commonly used in another thread, I was ignorant on why it was used. I thought that was standard max speed with a 1g burn for half the travel, then used to slow down.
Thanks for clearing this up.
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ghostrider
03/22/21 01:49 AM
66.74.60.165
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Was playing HBS Battletech, and something very odd was noticed. The Argo has what looks to be a gravity deck. At least it looks like one, as it spins around the axis of the ship when it is not under thrust.
Is it something they added in to the newer rules, that a dropship can have a gravity deck?
I am assuming it is yet another non canon feature with it, but thought I would ask.
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Wick
03/22/21 11:24 AM
173.247.25.195
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I'd expect civilian transports would not exceed 1.2g except under special circumstances. Anything more would be uncomfortable to the passengers who are ultimately paying the upkeep on your craft. Cargo ships carrying non-human live cargo can maybe do 1.5g and likely would still be more worried about the effects on their human crew than the animal cargo. Though either could do more acceleration for short periods of time (10-15 minutes) without upsetting anyone too much - its the matter of doing it over the course of days that it would be terribly uncomfortable. Only military ships should burn > 1.5g for days. However, I admit don't have the medical knowledge to know the impacts of long-term high g forces so I'm taking a stab in the dark here on what seems reasonable. But since Battletech is mostly involved with military craft, we can assume its crews are trained to support whatever its max thrust is, and assume non-military stuff is going to travel at around 1g almost all of the time. Anything else is theoretical and falls in gamemaster's discretion.
700,000kph can't be the maximum velocity. We know the distance to Earth's jump points are 1520 million km and the standard time it takes is 9.12 days (218.88 hours), which makes the average velocity 6.94 million kph - ten times as fast. 700,000 kph max or average speed might be a trip to a planet's moon though; maybe nearby planets orbiting a red dwarf.
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In HBS Battletech the three habitation pods spin around just like a gravity deck. This provides some gravity while in orbit but as I understand it its less than 1g because they mention a low-grav swimming pool.
The pods have to fold back in for transit, because they would otherwise provide a force perpendicular to the thrust of the main engines. By folding in, the exterior ends of the habitation pods reorient 'downward' to the engines, such that the rooms inside of the habitation pods always have the direction of gravity coming from their floors - they don't need to have tables, chairs, beds, etc reoriented like we discussed in the other thread.
The Argo has a few rules oddities like this and the Leopard docking collar. It think its rather explainable though based on its huge size and intended purpose (long-term deep space exploration.) I have a bigger problem in that it burns at 2g all the time after a few upgrades and that jumpships are readily available at the jump points despite being in the Periphery (even most worlds in House space wouldn't have a jumpship primed for jump almost immediately upon arrival of a dropship.) I think I pointed this out elsewhere that jumpship-poor areas of the Periphery (like the MoC which has something like 50 jumpships in total) only gets a jumpship to visit every few weeks on average, with more important worlds getting the lion's share and less important, backwater worlds perhaps going a few months between visits. You can't just board a dropship, travel to jump point and be ready to jump to the next system at your leisure. Instead of it being a two week turnaround in the Periphery to go from Planet A to planet B, it may be closer to two or three months (in which case, stay on Planet A for a few more weeks), and this assumes the jumpship is going where you want it and has an open collar (or two for the Argo), as it may already be obligated to jump to a different system or already be full. I realize HBS had to bend the rules to keep the game moving with less downtime, but realistically mercs operating in the Periphery have a lot less freedom of movement.
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ghostrider
03/22/21 06:24 PM
66.74.60.165
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First, the idea of a tube being a fighter cubical sounds weird, as I seem to see it meaning a round structure, not something like a cereal box.
It would have to be square/rectangular, as to fit any sort of fighter into it.
Which gave me pause, as the suggestion about having a set of arms come out to at least retrieve the fighter would be necessary, as the fighter should probably have the nose pointed out, and I seriously don't think the cubical would allow a turn table in order to rotate the fighter. The size of it, verse the size of the ship's space dedicated to it sounds like the issue. Doesn't mean this is correct, it just means it is a concern. One main reason I think of the loading arms, is that the fighters can be loaded/unloaded while the ship is grounded.
Now, while pondering this, the concept of aerodynes and their cargo came to mind.
As military aerodynes seem to be set up so they can load and unload on the ground, yet the main thrust seems to be aft orientated, how does this work?
Are the units stored with their feet/bottoms towards the bottom? This would suggest they 'hang' from the walls when the rear thrust is working. The opposite is suggested if they are orientated towards the aft of the ship, which makes loading and unloading that much more difficult. The old Triumph fluff suggested they have ramps to allow movement of units while in flight. This would suggest a bottom drive. Yet this would seem counter to unloading on the ground, as the ramps would be sideways.
Maybe someone can shed some light to this.
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ghostrider
03/24/21 02:14 AM
66.74.60.165
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Another question comes to mind about aerodynes and their transit flight concepts deals with weapon arcs among others.
It would appear that all weapons can fire straight up/down as well as their standard arcs on the ships. If not, then they could not use the transit drives in combat, as their top would be forward, with the bottom being the rear of the ship.
As there is nothing saying that anything besides the Avenger, can change the orientation of the internal items.
Which runs counter to the concept of the Avenger using the rear drive to get into fights in space.
The weapons came to mind as I watched a video of another game where the ships passing over one another, fired straight up/down on each other.
If they can't, then this is a MAJOR flaw in the combat system, but it would explain why 3d fighting is kept out of the game. Being directly above a ship, with your bow facing straight down in comparison to the enemy comes to mind.
The arc issue is a bit odd, as a nose mounted weapon can only fire 45 degrees to either side, making a 90 degree arc. The up/down would be 180 degrees total. This causes the question about why they are limited in the left/right arcs, but not up/down.
The rear would be the only other arc that would come to question, as the sides would be limited to obstructions, such as the wing placement, position on the fuselage, and such to limit where then can fire.
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Wick
03/26/21 06:28 PM
173.247.25.195
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As far as rotating tube on the dual engined dropship idea, I envisioned a rectangular bay within that tube. For all intensive purposes it would seem like a normal fighter/small craft bay to the crew, but structurally it rotated 180 degrees to accommodate whichever engine was providing thrust. You can't rotate a square or rectangular without having empty areas - you need a circle, hence the overall cylindrical shape of the rotating bay.
As I understand it aerodynes must orient the mechs such that their back is facing the engines. Under thrust they would essentially be prone, laying on back (but still serviceable to techs), and after landing the mechs could walk around as normal. For vehicles it would be a little harder, as they'd have to be stored front or tail end toward engines and might be harder to service (for example, vehicles with ICE engines might not be able to be fueled until landed.)
I have a bigger problem that the artwork for things like the Leopard show fighter bays aligned in a landing orientation, meaning they'd be on their side if launched in space (which is primarily where they would be used.) Aerodynes have a serious problem with fighters unless they have a similar rotating bay like what I'd mentioned. As constructed and illustrated they can't launch fighters both during transit and when landed - only one or the other works.
As far as retrieving a fighter and needing to turn it around to launch again, I see two different possibilities.
1. Space: In order to come to zero relative velocity, the fighter or small craft must thrust with its engines to slow to zero acceleration, meaning they're going to be entering the bay engine first. So there'd be no reason to turn it around inside or use a turntable. I suppose its possible for them to enter nose first with a little velocity and use arresting wires or something to bring it to a halt and then turn it around, but it would have to have a near zero velocity anyway, which still means turning around and firing the engines to slow down. Turning around a second time just to see where you're going seems extraneous with video monitors and sensors (if not those grappling arms to assist.)
2. Landed: Aerospace craft have a Harrier effect to allow them to perform zero radius turns and land in near-vertical fashion. It seems this is requirement given the very short distances available in a dropship craft bay (no more than 20 meters deep I'd say). In space you can turn around and decelerate to zero, but in atmosphere and under planetary gravity conditions that's not possible without crashing - you'd need some thrust vectoring to be able to land on a dime.
In either case, you can't be coming in for landing at a few hundred kph or -splat-.
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ghostrider
03/26/21 09:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is a potential issue with the back towards the thrusters in the Leopard and others like it. When landed, the units would have to rotate 90 degrees in order to face the doors to head out of them. The question of how much space do they have to turn before exiting would have to be answered with that one.
Now here is a major picture issue with fighter bays, to go along with your response. The Leopard CV doesn't land or do much beyond entering orbit. So there is absolutely no reason to have a bottom transit drive on the, so why are the fighter bays looking like those on the planetary landing version?
Maintenance is much harder with vehicles if they are basically standing on their rear sides, beyond the fact that they are not all straight on that side. Sloped armor and things like hitches tend to be the first thoughts on that. Dealing with things like changing out say a turret or say an engine while it is on it's rear would mean hoists in the front, meaning side when landed, would have to be used. And this doesn't solve the issue of moving units between levels on ramps as suggested in some fluff.
I figured reversing into a fighter bay is possible, but without assistance, would take far to long. A minute is just not enough time as a round in space is. Which is really bad on the Vengeance carrier, as the landing bays are next to the main thrusters, so you would have to be moving up to enter it. Not very ideal at all.
The tube rotation is about the same for the box rotation, except that that the circular tube would be more dedicated to having the equipment rotation be enclosed.
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ghostrider
03/26/21 09:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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Fighter craft should be able to turn with their flight adjustment thrusters, but the speed would have to be zero. And sort of movement would have the ship off axis, sending one section out instead of a simple rotation turn.
The main reason why I think this, just like a turn table set up, wouldn't be feasible is the length of the ship verses the fighter bay. Fighters tend to be, but not always longer then they are wide. Granted, the bays are supposed to be able to handle all ships, as they are one size fits all (given that all bays weight the same amount, as none are listed as light or medium weights) and things like the Thrush and Sologar fighters are round work in those bays, though both of these fighters are lights, IE smaller then the others. The space that would have to be dedicated to the fighter bay would seem smaller in the pictures then they would need to be. I figured the bays reach almost half way thru a Leopard, so there is some space between the fighter bays for people to work, while the rest is taken up by the bays. Probably wrong on this, but that is my impression of it.
I am not sure if they give timeframes for space refueling vessels to line up with a ship to be fueled. This would be a good thing to base off landing a fighter inside of a bay. I was going to suggest a reduced time as you don't need to line up exactly, but then refuelers tend to have arms to hook up the connections.
One more thing about the rotating bays. The drawings look like there might be an issue with size of the bays verses the space they rotate in. This is not major, as pictures tend to never be exact on things like this.
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Wick
03/27/21 10:14 PM
173.247.25.195
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... so why are the fighter bays looking like those on the planetary landing version?
Because these guys were artists, not scientists. Its pretty obvious a lot of the early FASA stuff just wasn't fully thought through (like the jumpship orientation facing toward star instead of away.) LOOSE and others may not have even known the stuff they were drawing for was harder sci-fi than Star Trek and Star Wars and just drew a spaceship that looked like it belonged in those universes where things like antigravity generators exist.
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Maintenance is much harder with vehicles if they are basically standing on their rear sides, beyond the fact that they are not all straight on that side.
Mechs are not all flat on their backsides either. Clearly there is some kind of scaffolding or frame to hold units in place. After all there are dedicated spots for them (mech bays, vehicle bays, etc.) Even if a dropship has extra weight for cargo it can't carry an extra mech or vehicle without damaging it during maneuvers - they have to be locked into the bays to prevent damage.
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And this doesn't solve the issue of moving units between levels on ramps as suggested in some fluff.
Ramps probably only used when landed. Though I suppose a unit could be moved up and down a ramp in spheroid ship under thrust.
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I figured the bays reach almost half way thru a Leopard
If there's one on each side this would mean they touch in the middle and effectively become a through-deck. A through-deck is ideal so you can launch out of one door and receive in the other, speeding up refueling operations so the next sortie can be carried out as quickly as possible.
A Leopard is 51.6 meters wide at the wings, which makes it maybe 40ish along the fuselage. This gives a bay length of no more than 20 meters. Assuming aerospace fighters are comparable in size to mechs (which are 7-13 meters tall), then that sounds about right. Something like the Chippewa might be at the extreme end of the scale, since its short in one dimension and very long in the other (and probably fits somewhere about 5 meters long but 17 or 18 meters wide.) I'd guess the Leopard bays are 20 meters square footprint (probably touching so as to make a through-deck) and 5-8 meters tall. If the Leopard isn't a through-deck then the space between the two bays must be rather narrow - certainly less than 5 meters wide or you'd never get the largest fighters to fit in a Leopard.
Edited by Wick (03/27/21 10:28 PM)
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ghostrider
03/27/21 11:55 PM
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TRO 3057 Page 48 under the Triumph says the newer version changes from a massive single ramp to a pair of narrower ramps that provide simultaneous access to both the upper and lower vehicle bays to reorganize cargo while a vessel is in flight. It is also equipped with two huge cargo bays with mech cubicles that allow for 4 mechs to be used as well.
So if you need some reading, that would be an interesting thing. And with this, it would imply the decks are not orientated towards the bottom of the ship, but the aft, if the transit drive is rear, not bottom.
I had forgotten about the Chippewa fighter being a basic wing when saying about the general design of the fighter bay. So I can see where the depth verse width comes into play.
This statement: I figured the bays reach almost half way thru a Leopard, so there is some space between the fighter bays for people to work, while the rest is taken up by the bays. Says the bays would not go completely thru, but have some space in between them.
I don't know if there is a deck above or below the placement of the fighter bays, to allow people to get by them, so assumed to have the space in between there.
But I guess if I was going to be very picky and technical, I could look up the size of the fighters and compare it to the space the cubicles actually provide. But we know the developers were not good about keeping things logical.
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Wick
03/28/21 05:37 PM
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The Triumph has a transit drive on the bottom of the craft. It does not use the same engines for atmosphereic flight as transit, as the Leopard does. Thus it is capable of maintaining a "landing orientation" in space without issue. As odd as it may be to think of aerodyne dropships flying through space top-side forward, that's exactly how the Triumph works.
From Dropships & Jumpships, p 32: "The bottommost deck houses the ship's transit drives, landing gear, and fuel tankage." In fact the book states something similar for almost all of them. I'm less sure about newer dropships but there's a pattern here.
Aerodynes that have same engines at rear and must reorient internals to accommodate direction of gravity: Leopard, Leopard CV, Gazelle, Avenger (all under 2000 tons)
Aerodynes with separate transit drive at bottom of fuselage: Triumph, Condor, Buccaneer, Monarch (all 3500 tons or more)
Aerodynes with single rear engine transit drive but can't land anyway so internally organized like a warship (skyscraper): Achilles, Vengeance
Unclear: Fury (probably rear only due to its small size, but the engines are located on lowest deck)
So its generally only the small aerodynes that have to transition from gravity produced by a rear-thrusting drive to gravity from a planet. However for the larger, typically twin-engined aerodynes capable of landing there will be a period of transition between transit and orbit and landing in which the engines to be used are swapped. Everything should be locked down during these periods, but during the long transit trips people and military equipment could be moved around as if landed on planet (with another lockdown period to occur at flipover)
I probably should have clarified earlier statement about mechs on back as being for smaller, single-engined aerodynes.
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Wick
03/28/21 05:57 PM
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But we know the developers were not good about keeping things logical.
Not at all. Even when they had art to go by.
The Leopard CV is listed at 53 meters wide, and top down view indicates its well under 20 meters wide along the fuselage where the fighter bays are, and the bay doors aren't even all the way on the sides but on an even thinner section of the fuselage. (Which by my measurement puts it at about 7 meters wide.) With a bay door on either side, that means the bays are only 3.5 meters deep. You can't tell me the aerofighters fit into cubicles that shallow. I mean, just a few pages later it states the ST-46 Shuttle is 22 meters long and the S7-A Bus is 20. So based on this we know fighter/small craft cubicles must be at least 22 meters deep. (And I may have shortchanged the Chippewa - it could be closer to 25 meters wide but I'll accept 22 as minimum for now.)
There's just no way the Leopard's main fuselage area is only about 30 meters wide based on overhead art and description of 51.6 meters wide at wings or Leopard CV at only 7 meters based on its overhead art and 53 meter width. The doors are a problem, too. The Leopards aerofighter doors are only 9.6 meter wide and the Leopard CV's only about 5.1 meters wide. Those dimensions might be plenty wide for a mech or vehicle door but that Chippewa's going to lose its wings coming in for landing.
Just some really bad specs and/or art with the early stuff.
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ghostrider
03/28/21 07:59 PM
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Sadly, only the Avenger has stated anything about having to deal with the two separate drives. The Monarch says outright, it only has the one drive for transit, though this can't be the only engine on the ship. Otherwise, the aerodyne body would NOT help with lift in any way in an atmosphere, which is part of why they are used.
Funny as it is, the Chippewa would not be able to sit on a turn table to rotate it back into position if the Leopard is only 20 meters wide. Not even including the second bay, but if the wingspan is 22 plus meters, it would stick out of the ship while being turned.
If I remember right, the clans Broadsword mentioned the narrow passage between the front two mech cubicles in order to get to the front cubicle. As it was based on the Leopard, but needed the 5th mech for a star, they redid a chunk of it. From the sounds of it, they might have actually realized the mistake with the regular Leopard, as they made the ship a bit bigger.
The art work might fit if the ship was larger. Or the specs reflected a larger size.
The problem I was trying to get at with vehicles verse mechs is the limited area they could rest on their backs without falling over, even with restraints. The mechs have a much wider base with arms/legs helping to keep it stable. Unless vehicles have some form of braces that fold out to hold the unit, it is far too dangerous to really be working on them while in transit. Which removes a lot of repair time on them.
Now another issue with the bottom transit drive. Arcs on the ship. The game suggests the nose is always in front of the ship while in transit, yet this means that anything coming up from the front/rear would be under the guns of ALL arcs on the ship. And damage would go where? No top or bottom armor.
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Wick
03/29/21 05:38 PM
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Actually there's a comment on the Leopard CV about reorientation as well. Or rather, the fact that Leopard CVs hardly ever land because of the perceived difficulty in doing so.
(page 52) "The Leopard CV is one of the few aerodynes not equipped with a separate transit drive, which means that the vessel's internal gravity is oriented differently when on the planet's surface than when in transit. This is generally not a problem, because the ship seldom enters the atmosphere except to recover an occasional downed fighter. The interior is designed almost exclusively for space flight, oriented so that "up" is toward the nose."
Which is really odd. The CV is based on the Leopard which is clearly designed to land and has horizontal rather than vertical decks. The artwork also has the bay doors oriented in a horizontal deck position when they should be tilted 90 degrees and be wider top-to-bottom than bow-to-stern if "up" is toward the nose.
But more generalized, there is this comment on page 4 of the D&J operations manual:
"Spheroids... Able to travel under sustained acceleration of about 1 G, the vessels can also accelerate to 3 Gs or more without worrying about the shift of gravitational orientations. Therefore, spheroid DropShips can maneuver at high Gs with significantly less preparation time than aerodynes - in most cases, between 30 seconds to a minute after alerting the crew and passengers. In aerodynes, the preparation process includes the actual moving or packing of all loose equipment and personal items. Depending on the vessel's preparedness, the operation could take anywhere from a few minutes to several hours."
So even though its only explicitly stated in the Avenger write-up, it can be infered from above that a similar internal reorientation process takes places on all rear-thrust only aerodynes. The Avenger's cabins are probably just better designed to make the conversion easier or more functional for the inhabitant(s). Being an assault craft that may need to launch quickly to provide orbital defense, its probably a good thing that its designed with speed and/or ease in mind.
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Aerodynes like Leopards are primarily for raids, so you don't/shouldn't need to repair until you're back at home. Its the larger spheroids like Unions and Overlords that can do repairs en route. They have large repair bays while the Leopard repeatedly says how cramped it is aboard, with barely enough room to store the mechs and spare equipment (often storing spare parts in the aerofighter bays in lieu of fighters.) The HBS game aside, doing anything but simple repairs aboard a Leopard is just not practical. The type of service I was envisioning is reloading ammo and such - not repairs. Furthermore the Clans don't consider repair and maintenance as part of a military operation, so Broadswords being similarly cramped really doesn't do them much harm.
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ghostrider
04/03/21 05:52 PM
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The fluff for the Broadswords doesn't do much to harm them, but it does show just how tight the area in question is. Mech bays should be shaped differently then fighter bays, as the fighters would be longer and/or wider then the mechs. This means the width of a Leopard would be even tighter with a fighter bay verses a mech bay. Yes, this is supposition on my part, so the fighter turn table may well be usable in the area, unlike my reasoning would suggest.
Now a question of prices for building aerodynes. Would they need more added to it, as almost every door or console would need multiple copies on each thing? Even just a button to open a door would probably need two locations, as I don't think all the people on the ship could reach the top of the doorway on a ship that is under thrust. In zero-g they could float to reach the doors, but the mechanisms would have to be manually shut, or a decently long delay set up for the door, in this case, to shut automatically, to avoid catching someone having an issue in zero-g.
I know simplicity is done for a reason, but the idea of forward being the top of the ship changes combat. Any work being done to a unit would have to have it locked down before the rear thrusters could be used, as this issue may well send the unit into the rear walls, or another unit that is locked into position. Things like testing a drive train would require the unit to be able to move on it's own, meaning no lockdown is allowed.
The HBS Argo does show an issue with having a second dropship attached to the primary one when moving. The Leopard is set up so the nose is forward when moving, and all scenes suggest the Argo is rear drive only. I know, simplicity overrules logic most of the time for things like this, but the grav deck does seem to suggest dropships can have them.
And as for the low-g pool, it is possible that is in the rotation area of the ship. Meaning the area there is only subject to gravity when the ship is under thrust. Much like the transport tube on Babylon 5.
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Wick
04/06/21 09:56 AM
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Doors could be put into the appropriate corners of rooms such that duplication isn't needed. But you're not wrong that there probably would need to be many things duplicated and so aerodynes with only rear engines should come with a higher cost for these things to those with separate drive engines on the bottom of the fuselage. But given the absence of an entirely second engine (which must be expensive) we can consider it a wash when it comes to total craft cost. Yes you might need to buy two toilets, two shower heads, etc, but you only had to buy one engine.
As the earlier quote indicated, combat readiness is a circus. Everything needs to be strapped down in an aerodyne to change orientation, so if the ship needs to change from top-first to nose-first to do combat then the crew needs to take the time to do all these things first. On the other hand since combat only reasonably occurs near jump points and gravity wells due to transit velocities, most of the internal stuff should already be locked down as the ship would have been transitioning into or out of top-first or nose-first orientations anyway to be ready for orbiting/landing or jumpship hookup.
Not sure these small aerodynes would have much room to test a vehicle's drive train anyway. A Leopard/Broadsword might only have 5 meters or so of free space to navigate. Larger spheroids can do maintenance en route but these smaller craft really need to wait until planetside and have maintenance done outside the craft (usually at a dedicated facility). I suspect the dropports on most planets have repair bays on site to supply such a service (for a rental cost.) Not unlike airports that always have a hanger or two to service aircraft that have developed problems and are no longer safe to fly without repair.
The Argo and Leopard when joined are aligned correctly with Leopard nose to front. This would match how the Leopard transits so the crew (Sumire) navigates the decks just as they would before they gained the Argo. I have a bigger problem with the art of spheroid dropships taking off from warships as if they are docked with their engines against the warship's hull. This would place their decks perpendicular to gravity under warship thrust and is a major artistic error. Spheroids must dock to warships (and by extension, normal jumpships) on their sides, not on their bottoms. (Not withstanding the fact that the fusion engines could damage the warship/jumpship hull in an bottom-docked setup).
The Argo's low-G pool is explicitly build in one of the pods (beta or gamma, I forget which) so it is certainly in the rotating part of the ship. It therefore has gravity both under thrust, and when rotating in orbit. Its probably drained for the transitions and jumpship docking though or you could have water sloshing about and spilling out of the pool as the pods retract or extend, and float away when docked to the jumpship and near zero-G for extended periods. So its not usable all the time, only during transit and orbit.
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ghostrider
04/06/21 12:51 PM
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I guess it comes down to have aerodynes actually fight. When in combat, do they have and use a rear drive?
There has to be a way to move around the ship inside, even in combat. Simple firefighting needs to be done, otherwise, a fire that is small may well destroy the ship before combat is over.
This concept is why I believe all Aerodynes would need multiple controls for most of the systems like the door controls. Might not be everything, like the Avenger states, and the Leopard CV might not need them.
The concept of having rooms built in a tube the rotates does seem to be a great fix for dealing with this, but some issues do remain. Not everything can rotate, such as a few pipes. The unit decks being a main thing, as the space they use verse how much space they actually have.
Possible house rule might be to set in a price modifier for adding in the extra equipment needed to do so. Locking failure on keeping the equipment in place would be a big thing, but the structure to hold it being the most important.
The time when leaving a planet may well be required to work on some units, which might affect the lock down issue. This would be especially true for fighter or if you are moving to say another target, such as a base on a moon or going from moon to planet. Fitting the mechs drop pods is a good example of this, though not sure if the newer aerodynes have drop shoots in them. Given the issue of peoples habits, the idea that the coffee pots and such is locked down when in danger zones is unlikely. Stupid to say, but human nature would suggest this. Even moving around vehicles in order to set down and drop a few, then move to another location comes to mind. This sort of thing is probably when nearing a world. Updated intel being one reason to even attempt it.
I would agree a fully loaded dropship would have limited space to test movement, but even fully packed, they should have some space. Not saying a race track size to go full speed, but enough to make sure the unit can go a few meters. A floor mounted 'powerdyne' testing unit would seem likely, but you are not talking just wheeled vehicles. Tracked vehicles would be an issue on such a device.
Given the implied state of craft, I would guarantee all space ports have some repair facilities. Weither they work correctly or not is the question there.
I can also see most not having all the parts needed on hand, especially right after raids.
The nose pointing to the front is actually 90 degrees off from it's normal flight between points. The bottom transit drive is normally used when jump/planet routes are done. Not sure if the Leopard CV can dock with the Argo, but that would be the one to be 'correct' when flying.
Now to throw some more illogical things into the spheroid dropships. The tug, such as the Octopus, docks to the nose of spheroids in order to move them. So their thrust would be from the nose of the one being moved.
But the warship example is a nice one. Everything would be sideways when the warship is moving. But even before that, jumpships did use their drives to produce artificial gravity while waiting at jump points. I can imagine, they were not always empty, as some would be waiting for say an important person to board that didn't come on a dropship, or they are waiting for orders, like a reactionary force sitting to long.
The pool is more likely set up with walls that are closed on it, as draining it would take a while, and would then be restricted to just the middle half of a planet/jump run. Combat throws it all into the toilet.
I said middle, even though they put it in the gamma pod I believe, because they want you to fix the pods to get it all. SO they made sure by suggesting you have to fix the pod first. Otherwise, you should be able to get it without fixing any of them. Also, the gravity at the outer edge of a grav deck is more then near the spine of the ship, or so I have been told.
The required near zero-g would mean the pods can not be rotating, so in orbit would not be an option if in the main part of the pod.
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Wick
04/07/21 09:17 AM
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Its not a zero-g pool, its a low-g pool. Yes gravity would be greater the deeper into the pool you are. The understanding I got was that a person could push hard from the deepest point, and propel themselves directly out of the water, and do acrobatic flips "above" the water surface where the gravity was weaker. You can't do that on a planetside pool which is what makes it so cool. Apparently luxury dropships and space stations can offer such a feature for the rich and famous, but its not something your average merc group would ever get to experience.
Probably right that quality of the repair facilities at dropports correlates to how much traffic they get and how many merc or house units come through. Backwater planets are probably ill-equipped, core worlds are probably well-equipped, and border worlds depending on how long ago the last invasion was and how peaceful or damaging it was. But with the right components I bet mech techs could rebuild any damaged mech at one, regardless of quality (it might just take longer at poorly maintained ones). On many planets I bet there's a salvage yard next door, if not a mech seller. I can imagine that after several centuries of warfare, there's a lot of mostly destroyed mechs that are simply disposed of at earliest convenience, which would be right next door to the drop port. Replacement armor, myomer cable, and actuator components would be readily available, possibly compatible electronics and even replacement limbs (though it may result in Frankenmech appearance.) Well-off worlds would have their mech seller right there as well to make a buck off of the more successful merc groups passing through (except in the Republic of the Sphere where such practise is outlawed.) Clan worlds probably have cleaner dropports with no "junk yard", but an organized stack of fresh replacement parts (and obviously no mech seller.)
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ghostrider
04/07/21 12:07 PM
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I was thinking more along the lines of not having parts on hand for things when I said they might not be able to do it.
I would also think only dropship repair facilities would be near or in the space port area, as the port is almost an absolute target for any attack. Having a well stocked facility may well give the enemy tons of supplies that they might not have otherwise.
I would think at least an office for repair facilities would populate the port. I won't say the actual parts and facilities wouldn't be there, just not likely. Ways to transport broken units would, even if it is just to move the items from the dropship to the repair bay.
One thought came to mind about the low-g pool. The entire area would have to be set up to resist water corrosion. The splashing would definitely travel distance, and I would hate to be the one to have to clean it up. I could also imagine the extra water weight that would be required to keep one functional. Get used to one, and hurt yourself planetside comes to mind as well
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Wick
04/08/21 02:02 PM
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I hadn't thought about the water weight of the pool. That's significant. Argo could very well incur a precession when its spinning the pods around if one of them is a good deal heavier than the other two and the fact they are oriented more toward the stern than centerline. The pods really need to be similarly weighted - medical beds, cabins, the library and holosuite obviously add some mass, but probably not a lot compared to the fixed bulkheads as they are mostly empty voids. That pool on the other hand may hold several hundred tons of water depending on size. Farah should have vetoed this idea as potentially unsafe. Sumire is even enthusiastic about it and should have known better as a pilot.
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ghostrider
04/08/21 02:49 PM
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As the HBS game is not fully canon, they can get 'away' with a few things that don't work. Such as in the beginning, the ship was looking like an aerodyne when in the ground.
But the biggest oooops comes from the fact that only one habitation pod was whole, while the other two were framework. Part of the upgrades definitely defines this. So using the rotation would be completely off balance until you get something in the other two.
This is just speaking logically, not really something to 'fix' in BT.
Come to think of it, the Argo did have thrusters on the 'bottom' of the ship, in order to launch from the crash site. So the question of if aerodyne or spheroid does come to mind with this. If spheroid, then the 'side' thrusters would not be enough to help lift the ship off the ground.
As for the economy of a space port, the lack of parts shows in the tables in some of the books for availability of parts, IE the 7+ style roll for say heat sinks. But most seem to ignore those tables when looking for specific or even generic parts. The idea that a knee actuator for say a Vindicator during 3020 would be hard to get in the FS. Even the DC would be difficult, though I was suspect the LC being a merchant house, might be the better place to find one. One would suggest the constant raiding of the FS/CC would lead to there being more available, I would think finding a working one is the point. Doubtful of finding a brand new one.
The Achilles and Vengeance dropships are the other two that would definitely have problems around a large gravity source, as they would only have rear drives. They do not enter atmosphere, which would point to this speculation. So any type of orbit may well cause issues with things being pulled towards the gravity point. It may not be more then say a single ounce per meter, but it does create an issue.
The idea of a dropship being thrown into combat unexpectedly would mean that the idea of a diner table with loose items should not be portraited in the game. Any sort of maneuver would send that flying. The idea of doing any sort of repairs near a conflicted world brings up a whole new set of issues.
As stated before, putting on drop pods is one such action that happens a lot in orbit. The ship must remain stable for a few turns, unless that was changed. I wonder if there should be some sort of table for internal damage taken while dropping mechs. A good hit may well shift something being used and smash into a wall, support strut, or even the unit. But this is just adding complications.
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ghostrider
04/09/21 10:35 PM
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Really odd question has come up.
Does the grav deck on a warship work at a 90 degree angle from the thrusters that move the ship?
For some reason, the idea that the warship is based on an aerodyne frame, meaning little as they don't enter the atmosphere, but the drive being rear, not bottom, has me wondering this. Going aft/bow would have the deck going 'upside down' compared to any thrust from the engines.
The discussion about the side/bottom furniture placement has gotten me thinking of this.
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Cray
04/10/21 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Really odd question has come up.
Does the grav deck on a warship work at a 90 degree angle from the thrusters that move the ship?
The grav deck(s) of a WarShip are meant for use in zero-G when the ship isn't being pushed by its thrusters. They are generally arranged as rings around the central core of the KF drive like a toroidal space station.
The "Wagon Wheel" WarShip has some of the proportionally largest gravdecks that extend beyond the main hull. However, they do illustrate the standard orientation of gravdecks on a WarShip.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:Wagon_Wheel.jpg
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For some reason, the idea that the warship is based on an aerodyne frame, meaning little as they don't enter the atmosphere, but the drive being rear, not bottom, has me wondering this. Going aft/bow would have the deck going 'upside down' compared to any thrust from the engines.
The gravdeck would not be used while the ship was under thrust since the whole ship would be under simulated gravity at that point. The gravdeck would seem to be severely tilted with centripetal force perpendicular to the thrust of the WarShip.
WarShips are not based on aerodyne hulls. They're scaled up, beefed up JumpShip hulls meant to experience "gravity" from only the engines. The stern is "down" and bow is "up" at all times unless coasting, (in which case the grav decks start spinning and crew may visit those small decks in their off-duty hours). As Strategic Operations noted, WarShips and JumpShips are arranged as "spacegoing skyscrapers."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
04/10/21 10:58 AM
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Quote:
WarShips are not based on aerodyne hulls. They're scaled up, beefed up JumpShip hulls meant to experience "gravity" from only the engines. The stern is "down" and bow is "up" at all times unless coasting, (in which case the grav decks start spinning and crew may visit those small decks in their off-duty hours). As Strategic Operations noted, WarShips and JumpShips are arranged as "spacegoing skyscrapers."
This is why the Bridge is considered by many to be at the FRONT of the ship or the bow, aka the top of the skyscraper. That does give a good explanation from our earlier discussion.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/10/21 11:50 AM
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The reason for the question of the grav decks comes from the discussion of the orientation of items due to gravity shifts. I know they aren't used when the ship is moving, but there is no way some of those features can be secured properly when they are thrown into combat unexpectedly, such as a ship moving into sensor range. Most things could be secured normally, but things like barbells and other weights, tend to be left in unsecured racks when in use.
Which makes me question on just how the grav decks design is. If the 'spoke and wheel' concept is right, that means a huge portion of the 'decks' they are on, are unusable for anything else. The spokes would require open space in order to rotate, so any passage by them would have to be near the 'surface' of the ship, effectively removing a chunk of space. If just a tube, like a subway train like structure the goes on a track, then more of the space can be utilized.
The space going skyscrapers seem to be more aerodyne looking then spheroid. The Potemkin being the main one that breaks this look. Having the structures sticking out seems to make them more fragile then having everything tucked in neatly. Weapon blisters should be the main thing that doesn't follow the inside the 'cylinder' set up. Is this something the developers ignored? Or just the artists?
Another thing of the grav deck, but the weight of all things on it would have to be pretty much equalized around it, otherwise the deck would cause issues with the bearings/wobble the ship. Running it while under thrust would be stupid, that is a given. But any sort of things like say a bathroom, would have to be set towards the rear of the ship, as water would have to be 'pushed' into tanks, otherwise you would risk having the liquid leak from receptacles.
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Cray
04/10/21 12:25 PM
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The reason for the question of the grav decks comes from the discussion of the orientation of items due to gravity shifts. I know they aren't used when the ship is moving, but there is no way some of those features can be secured properly when they are thrown into combat unexpectedly, such as a ship moving into sensor range. Most things could be secured normally, but things like barbells and other weights, tend to be left in unsecured racks when in use.
Yep.
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Which makes me question on just how the grav decks design is. If the 'spoke and wheel' concept is right,
It's canon. You can read Strategic Operations or DropShips & JumpShips to see the grav deck layout.
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that means a huge portion of the 'decks' they are on, are unusable for anything else.
They're small parts of the ships that mount them. Only on space stations do grav decks use up a lot of the inhabitable area.
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The spokes would require open space in order to rotate
If you read Strategic Operations then you'll see most decks don't have spokes. Most are more like circular subway tunnels inside the ship. To transfer between the decks and rest of the ship, small transfer cars (elevators on circular tracks) are used.
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If just a tube, like a subway train like structure the goes on a track, then more of the space can be utilized.
That is what Strategic Operations explains in detail.
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The space going skyscrapers seem to be more aerodyne looking then spheroid.
BattleTech's artists have generally ignored input from fact checkers and reviewers, so there's a lot of "ninja rocketships" (to borrow from Palladium) rather than sensible, realistic WarShip shapes. The Cruiser-class cruiser is an exception.
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Another thing of the grav deck, but the weight of all things on it would have to be pretty much equalized around it, otherwise the deck would cause issues with the bearings/wobble the ship. Running it while under thrust would be stupid, that is a given. But any sort of things like say a bathroom, would have to be set towards the rear of the ship, as water would have to be 'pushed' into tanks, otherwise you would risk having the liquid leak from receptacles.
I'd recommend reading Strategic Operations. You're reinventing the wheel on a lot of these thoughts.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/10/21 06:00 PM
66.74.60.165
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I didn't know Strategic Operations had gone over this stuff, hence the questions here.
Does it explain about how to transit to the moving floor of the deck from the low/zero g? Depending on the size, the deck could well be moving rather quickly. I can see more then a few injuries coming from it.
I say this as I doubt everyone will be on the deck when it starts up. But it may be possible they turn it off when shift changes happen, and then back on to lessen such issues.
This would be almost required moving heavy pieces on and off the deck, such as moving a bathroom item or maybe some water tanks.
Do they have the entire area closed off to the non moving parts? Or is it completely open, so there is no risk of hitting a wall or something while trying to transfer over?
Things like the Earth ships in Babylon 5 have the central shaft that can be used to help ease the transition.
Hmmm. I guess some stop and go sections to allow for transfer without having to do a huge area, such as a 5 foot section that can be stopped and started without much issue...
I guess this looks like a got ya question line, but for some stupid reason, this actually is bugging me.
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Karagin
04/10/21 10:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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One bit of caution and one I have mentioned before, this is BattleTech, not Traveler...how much of all of this do we really need for the game of moving a unit around and rolling dice?
Hard science is fun, but it can ruin a game fast.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
04/12/21 06:28 PM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
Does it explain about how to transit to the moving floor of the deck from the low/zero g? Depending on the size, the deck could well be moving rather quickly.
The movie The Martian has a scene illustrating a good example of this transition area. There is a ladder up the spoke from the grav deck surface (i.e., outer edge) and once they are sufficiently high on the ladder, the gravity is weak enough that they can push off into near-zero-G and float through the rest of the ship. Theoretically someone could "fall" down this spoke rather than using the ladder, and could easily incur injury as the gravity pulled them down to the grav deck floor. Training should prevent this in warship crews, but I imagine its not overly rare at civilian space stations. (Likely some dude trying to impress a lady.)
I suspect grav decks are not typically used when battle is imminent or about to provide rear thrust. The deck should be evacuated so people don't slide to the corner where floor and wall meet as the craft accelerates up. I suppose the ship could be caught off guard suddenly, and for that reason there shouldn't be too many loose items allowed in the grav decks. As I understand it, its mostly for exercise and recreation. So many people are only there to walk, and others might be there with stationary bikes or treadmills, both of which can be bolted to the floor/wall to endure change in gravity. Maybe some light sports equipment (balls, rackets, etc.) that can be stowed away quickly but cause no real damage if mistakenly left out. No one's living there and certainly no one should be using the bathroom or showering there - loose liquid is troublesome. If someone's gotta go they need to climb the ladder to enter the ship's main hull. Water bottles allowed, but not open cups.
It is only "fast" at the edge of rotation, as the spoke moves closer to the center of the ship it effectively moves slower so as to make it easier to transition from the fixed part of the ship to the rotating part of the ship. Its the same concept as swinging a piece of rope above your head. Both are moving at maybe one revolution per second, but your hand draws an arc a few inches long per 360 degrees while the end of the rope draws an arc several feet long - and thus faster. I'm not as familiar with Babylon 5 but it sounds like it has the same concept here. Its also possible there there are multiple rotating hubs, with an outer one moving faster than an interior one, which could also ease transition to the fastest moving outer grav deck ring - this seems overly complex though so I tend to believe in the single ring design as being unquestionably most common.
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ghostrider
04/12/21 07:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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Most are more like circular subway tunnels inside the ship.
This was a response to the spoke and wheel question. There is no spoke for someone to go to the middle of the ship and climb down.
To transfer between the decks and rest of the ship, small transfer cars (elevators on circular tracks) are used.
I missed reading this statement before posting my last post. It makes sense. I would think they had some larger ones for cargo transfers, though not sure if they would have only one such car, as they would have to lock to the deck, meaning anything stopped for any length of time would possibly be hit.
The battle thing is one that if sitting at a jump point, and not expecting an incoming ship, is a scenario that would cause problems with a grav deck working. Most other scenarios should give you time to shut down the grav deck. I would suspect it would have to slow down, not suddenly stop. Pretty much throwing people into the walls/floors/cealings.
Might be a funny sight for the first time or two, but put crewmen out of commission to even killing them.
Funny though very unlikely scenario is having someone get hit in the head with a bouncing ball, knocking them out.
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ghostrider
04/13/21 11:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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I was looking thru the wiki to see if a jumpship has to be pointed towards their target in order to jump, and seen nothing that says this has to be done. With that, it would suggest that the jumpship could jump 'sideways' to a destination. I was wondering if any of the books actually states is has to point towards the destination.
For someone wanting to keep a jump vessel in a system, this next bit comes to play.
The presence of another K-F drive coil, even a damaged one, within a certain proximity inhibits the correct formation of a K-F field. It is therefore impossible to move (jump) a fully assembled K-F drive as cargo or to recover a stranded JumpShip; unless they elect to scrap their drive coil, JumpShips must jump under their own power.
This is something that may well be an argument for being able to stack dropships on each other, as long as they fit ni the KF boom. It does not say that only a single dropship can be docked, just that anything outside of the boom would be sliced. If this is incorrect, the wiki needs to be updated.
The K-F field only correctly encompasses objects within the JumpShip or a DropShip that is properly connected by a KFFC Boom, and may slice through or mangle objects that are not fully encompassed.[9] Firing the K-F drive causes tidal stresses that can be felt up to 27 kilometers away from the JumpShip.[10][11]
And yet another oddity in the wiki. This negates the idea that the jumping vessel needs to be stationary.
It is possible to jump while moving; a JumpShip is not required to be stationary relative to the jump point. This is especially important for WarShips as it allows them to jump even while maneuvering under full thrust.
This part of the wiki negates the concept of being able to detect an incoming jumpship from a world, which seems to be a misconception even I though was correct.
When materializing at their destination point (whether or not it was the intended destination of the jump), the JumpShip causes tidal stresses similar to those caused when jumping out. It advertises its presence with an electromagnetic pulse that can be detected billions of kilometers away, and an infrared signature that can be detected from a relatively close range of up to 50,000 km.
I only realized after rereading this, that billions of kilometers for the EMP, thinking the IR was the range. So depending on the distance, the initial statement of not detecting it is wrong. I didn't erase it, as it shows misreading things can result in dumb mistakes.
Edited by ghostrider (04/13/21 11:35 PM)
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ghostrider
04/13/21 11:33 PM
66.74.60.165
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The first statement of a jump core interfering with a jump makes the question of how do they save jumpships that require another ship to jump to their location and require a replacement core?
Even the Yardships would have had issues with this.
The only way I could see around this, is that partially build ones MIGHT allow the jump, as there is no size notations in the wiki.
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happyguy49
04/15/21 08:54 AM
143.244.44.14
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I think yardships work like this: Yardship travels to the location of a stranded jumpship, stranded jumpship is inducted into the yardship where it is, then it is fixed up by yardship, then they can go their separate ways.
Otherwise a disabled jumpship would probably have to have its core removed and cut apart, elsewise said core would prevent a yardship from jumping. That might be so difficult and expensive that it could make more sense to build or buy another ship and sell the disabled one to scrappers.
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ghostrider
04/15/21 11:44 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue isn't moving the stranded jumpship, but moving the parts to the stranded one. It isn't efficient to build a new jump core in a system without things like support facilities, especially if it is a hostile one. Granted, moving the ship wouldn't happen until the entire jump core is disassembled.
Not sure how far along the building of the core has to be, in order to interfer with the active core.
This is even more important, as the repair ships after the fall of the SL would not even have access to the Yardships, so building a core would be even harder. The Monolith is the largest jumpship after the SL and before the warship revival. It isn't like you can fit jumpships inside of the Monolith to do repairs, and the Monolith itself wouldn't have the space/weight to have repair/building facilities to build a new core.
The concept that seems to be common is based on having the core partially built. Just Take out the old core, and put in a new one.
Building a new core may be possible at the repair site, but the implication is that building one is difficult under the best times.
This can be easier then thought, depending on how the core is built. It might be that you can build it like a single coil at a time.
Now if I am missing some information, let me know.
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Karagin
04/15/21 04:10 PM
70.118.172.64
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Wait, if you are replacing the core, why would you need to rebuild the whole damn jumpship? I am starting to think you guys are way over thinking this stuff and adding layers in that aren't really relative or needed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/15/21 06:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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Replacing the core with a prebuilt one, would not allow a ship to jump with the prebuilt core.
It would have to be built at the site of the stranded jumpship.
They don't say how large of a section of a jump core would prevent the jump. SO there is some leeway here.
Now to return back home, the broken core would have to be moved to a point where it would not interfer with the jumps, or torn down completely.
Which makes the question about the range of how close the cores could be without messing with others, as fleets would have a problem with each other when moving to another system. We know the range where the jump field pushes things away.
The Yardship made a good example of something that may well need to replace a jump core in the field, as damage to the SLDF's jumpships and warships would be more then possible. But in the time that those were not around, there would NOT be a place to build one in the field.
Rebuilding the entire jumpship in the field should not be necessary, as damage of that size would mean getting a whole new ship would be easier and cheaper.
As stated, it could very well be used to trap ships in system by having a partial core near the ship you wanted to keep in system. The size needed is the key here. Simply having one on a ship and position it near the jump vessel could well do it. Having it 'shot' onto a hull could be done as well.
The main things I wanted to find out was if the ship had to point towards the target, which seems to be answered by the fact that a ship ready to jump can be moving, which would suggest they would not be facing their destination.
Which suggests the forward motion thru the jump sequence would be wrong, as you could face away from your destination and still jump.
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Wick
04/16/21 05:37 PM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
I was looking thru the wiki to see if a jumpship has to be pointed towards their target in order to jump, and seen nothing that says this has to be done. With that, it would suggest that the jumpship could jump 'sideways' to a destination. I was wondering if any of the books actually states is has to point towards the destination.
No it does not. I've read it somewhere, probably in Dropships & Jumpships, but the description given is that jumps can be made from any heading, and (perhaps more importantly) arrive at any heading.
Technically speaking, a jumpship is typically facing away from the star (bow out, stern in) to charge, and usually jumps from this same orientation. It's well known that a ship can jump to the same star, such as a zenith to nadir jump or vice versa. In this case, the jumpship would be facing absolutely away from the star just prior to the jumping and can arrive at the jump point facing entirely the opposite direction. Furthermore, each star's orbital plane is inclined differently; if they had to reorient themselves prior to and/or after each jump, they'd burn a lot more maneuvering fuel than they do (books, art, and games would also describe such a maneuver, and I know of no examples that do, but many that expressly do not, HBS Battletech for example.)
A jump isn't travel through real space, its a trip through hyperspace, so the rules of pointing yourself toward your destination simply do not apply.
As I recall the one catch is that a ship arrives with zero momentum. So while you can jump while burning and be travelling at several million kph when you start the jump, you arrive at zero kph and must reaccelerate up to a high velocity.
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Agree with Karagin that jumpship repair is being overthought. 90% of the time a jump drive failure causes the ship to be utterly destroyed or stranded in deep space, far from any relief, with the effective loss of all hands (with rare examples of survivors finding a habitable planet nearby.) The remaining 10% of the time, they are usually so badly damaged, usually from battle or terrible maintenance, as to not be worth the repair effort. Remember that the jump core is by a wide margin the most expensive component of a jumpship - when it goes, the jumpship is basically scrap. The remaining jumpship husks are usually left as space junk, either where they are or moved to a junkyard orbit around the star, and its simply replaced on the roster with a newly built (or commandeered) ship. The yardships don't typically repair jump drive cores - they patch up armor and weapons incurred in battle, ie warships and dropships mostly.
Only in rare cases is it actually feasible to repair jump drive cores, and always always on warships - the WOB did it on some ancient warships abandoned during the Amaris Civil War and Succession Wars to build up a secret navy that no one else would know about. Costly, but no way to keep a secret that big buying brand new warships from the few shipyards capable of producing them. Presumably the houses may have done the same, on a more limited scale, during the later half of the First Succession War and into the Second, considering cost secondary to maintaining military superiority (or at least parity)
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ghostrider
04/16/21 10:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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A little thought into the failure issue, and I don't think that the majority of the failures end in the death of the ships. Leaks in the jump core, as well as damage from combat would make up a little more then 10 percent of the issues with ships. Computer malfunctions, such as calculations or in the case of the 4th succession war where Steiner had sabotaged the Kuritan invasion fleet would be an example of damage that would require jump core parts, without being fatal.
Granted, there is no real way to even begin to say what is the truth to this, so take it with a grain of salt.
This is also running on the idea that you don't jump into uninhabited systems if you don't have to, just because of failure is that dangerous.
Also, the implications in most of the fluff suggest most jumpships are lost thru combat damage then actual misjumps. Again, this is implied, so might well be garbage for stats.
I can imagine issues with warships being even less life threatening, and more being repairable, as they tend to have more damage related issues, considering combat being a main threat to their cores. Not sure if an emp affects the core or components, but we do know nukes were used and produce emps.
The issue with built cores may well explain why only certain ship yards can build jumpships, as the cores would have to be built on site, and not shipped.
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ghostrider
04/23/21 08:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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To avoid further thread jacking, the subject of the old equipment had some more things that might be discussed.
First thing that comes to mind is if those units that were made before the SL were stored in forgotten areas, that could well have been discovered by the relic hunters.
I could well see some warehouses being buried by war, and only found while people were searching for SL units. Maybe even the SL finding some when trying to build a new factory where they were at.
The idea of older units being called by things that are current came up with the idea that TPTB could very well have came up with the designs or configurations at an earlier time, though the model numbers should reflect this. Such as a Scorpion tank being based on such a find. They upgraded the unit to the 'current' version of the era. Maybe even having the prototype come from a much earlier unit, such as the evolution of say an Abrams or Tiger tank.
Copyright laws may well have caused them to avoid building such units for a while, resulting in large gaps between them being used and the remaking of them.
The Po tank is basically a heavier scorpion tank with an ac 10 verse the ac 5.
Even the generic SRM/LRM carriers would be evolved from an earlier version.
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Karagin
04/23/21 10:49 PM
70.118.172.64
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More like the Battle-Axe, it was original in an issue of StarDate; it was a cheaper Warhammer that never quite took off, or so the fluff said, but fast forward to Jihad timeline, and about the ONLY thing they kept was the name and some of the fluff...
The Old is New idea is fine IF the old is being brought back as is or upgraded to current. A Colt .45cal pistol made with today's metallurgy skills and factory work will be completely different than one made in 1873. It's still close to the original, but it's NOT the original. The Project Phoenix concept SHOULD have been used for mechs like the Battle-Ax and Firebee etc...but no, they didn't even do that.
IMVHO they had a cool idea, as well as giving a nod to the older earlier BT stuff, and it floundered as more of but we can add this and this and what this came along.
None is going to throw craptastic older armor on a mech when they can get even 3025 era armor on the cheap. The Mad Max idea only works in the DEEP Periphery, not the Inner Sphere regardless of the fighting even in 3025 armor that could take the beating of mech and vehicle weapons was able to be made for everything so this BAC stuff is pretty pointless and offers nothing to the game beyond another paperwork accounting nightmare.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
04/24/21 08:37 AM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
Have the developers thought of making a hellfire missile type of bomb?
Yes, there are at least two different laser-guided hard point-mount weapons.
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Something that can be dropped from orbit and take out the sensor nets looking for ships?
No.
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Also related, just what is the range of mechs sensors?
Depends on the sensor. See Tactical Operations.
Thought about after posting, but would an advanced probe extend this range without finding the specials like it does at closer ranges?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
05/14/21 03:08 AM
45.51.181.83
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To avoid thread jacking...
Why are chemical lasers useless? The lack of ammo?
Looked up the stats on the wiki, and they have the same range and damage for both the large and medium versions. The toxic materials being the main thing I can think of, but from a game point, they seem like a perfect fit for tanks.
The range could be an issue, but then that is any weapon with 9 or less when in the open.
What is being overlooked on my part?
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Karagin
05/14/21 10:24 AM
70.118.172.64
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Why would you use them when you have better options like a Light Gauss or actual lasers?
The extra retro-tech that we had forced on us as fans/players was not a step forward. Battletech had Lasers, it even had laser rifles that had power packs for infantry and non-mech use via the RPG side of the house. Did we really need that concept taken and put into mech weapons?
The chemical lasers are something that is for testing not weapons, even the lasers today are more of an energy system based not a chemical reaction. A perfect fit for tanks? Why because they have ammo and no heat? That falls back on the whole nerfed rules and thinking about vehicles going back to the start of this game and its rules. Mechs are king everything else is a second or third fiddle.
Also how many Clan vehicles use an IC Engine?
The whole thing still sounds like Caseless ammo but instead of AutoCannon, they slapped laser on the name. It's like someone taking a musket and tossing the ramrod and process of priming it, putting it all into a single round/bullet/shell, and putting a loading area that you drop the cartridge into and firing and you still get the smoke and kick and lack of accuracy that comes with a musket, but it cool because it looks like a modern Rifle so you skip the bad because of the cool.
Did we need a mech Taser? Are we playing Battletech or a new version of COD? A lot of the stuff got added because it sounded cool, so really all the new group of TPTB did was add their home tech wonder toys to the game. The same arguments that have been leveled on the Gauss Rifle and Ultra weapons as well all of the Clan stuff can be applied to tech we saw pop up with the whole Jihad plot.
Some of this stuff would have been right at home on Solaris 7 and should have been aimed for that setting and left there. Using Unbound as an example, it would have been a good way to introduce something, let folks play with it, give their complaints and feedback, and then a few years down the road, hey the Inner Sphere has these new weapons here are the five new ones. Instead, we got things dumped out like a dump truck dumping the manure in your front yard and then driving off before you could tell the driver where it need to go.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/14/21 01:17 PM
45.51.181.83
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I didn't look into the cost of the chemical lasers, but if they are that much cheaper then normal ones, then they are good for combat vehicles, especially the ones that die a lot.
I do see that this is not a step forward, as the chemical lasers were made long before the SL was made. I do see it as a step into making the normal lasers common. There is a lot of crap tech that I have seen that has been thrown into the game, and agree, it was more flash then workable. I see them as a forgotten weapon that did have merits, but the world left it behind. Much like the musket.
Except for the limited ammo, how does the chemical lasers make vehicles weaker? Yes, the ammo limit DOES hurt a vehicle in the long run, but not having to need heatsinks to fire them, makes it a bit easier to use then a few other lasers.
I have been one to agree that vehicles got nerfed as mechs are not as able to keep up with vehicles carrying weapons. Their main claim in the old days was maneuverability, and the fact they could operate with a missing limb or two. But the lack of heat build up in vehicles makes them king when weapon packing non energy weapons. The srm carrier is a good one for that. 10 six packs on a mech isn't easy to do with the heat build up, then armor.
The Jihad, and even the clans shows that most developers and writers forget that if you come out with a super weapon, it will become part of the game if those using it do not 'win'. The bigger and badder weapons destroy story lines, as it will eventually show up again and again. Then to say you can't use them really shows how stupid this cycle becomes.
I can agree that some ideas are dump fires dropped in your front lawn, but there are a few in that mix that is usable. I don't see the chemical lasers replacing normal ones, but as a back up or low tech weapon, it has a niche. I would think these are the very weapons the 'rebels' use on mechs that should have had ICE running them. The farmers revolt concepts that use workmechs for their primary punch.
Now I can see a nerf on this as the chemicals used in the weapons is so toxic, as they would be banned even more then normal lasers in civillian hands.
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Karagin
05/14/21 03:06 PM
70.118.172.64
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Your statement on cost sounds just like a politician.
Weaker in that you still lose range, and the fact that you have the same ammo weakness that comes along with any weapon that needs ammo. Then the fact that its use is limited in scope, we don't see it on a lot of vehicles in the game, and really it looks to be a stop-gap weapon used to keep real lasers for the Omni-mechs for the Horses.
BS on the lack of heat build-up makes vehicles king. I have tossed the rules on vehicles and heat, run many battles testing out that same argument, and found that the To Hit Location Table is the main issue with vehicles. Count the spots, then look at all the secondary effects, and you find that vehicles can use DHS without screwing up the Mechs being KING because they lose out when you roll to apply damage and their weak internal structure.
I can still beat a vehicle that is using DHS with canon mechs mainly because the mech can take damage and thus last longer than the vehicles. It can take movement hits and still stay in the fight. It can take an ammo hit and if it has CASE it can still stay in the fight if it's not carrying an XL engine.
Vehicles die in Battletech far faster than any other unit that unarmored infantry. So allowing them to have access to and use DHS won't hurt the game.
How low tech do you want to go? Do we really need low-tech weapons as the mainstay in the normal game? They are one-off items, you MIGHT find in use on a world that has fallen off the trade routes or some backwater deep OUTER Periphery world but not in use by the Inner Sphere powers.
It's like our musket example, it's a functional weapon and a hit will still kill someone event today, but are you going to army your infantry with it? No, because there are better weapons available and even a rebel group will drop the older weapons for newer ones the first chance they get.
The story line was nerfed when they ran with the Jihad as a reset to shoehorn in the Dark Age Clicky Verse story.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/14/21 04:20 PM
70.118.172.64
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Also, another area vehicles are nerfed in is engines. Sure we have fuel cells and they can use XL engines, but really we never did get a lighter IC engine. No turbine engines for vehicles and given how the fusion engines in the vehicles are, according to the fluff over the years, the same as the ones found in mechs, the idea that DHS can't be used is something that needs to be dropped.
If I buy a 300 rated fusion engine and it comes with DHS then it should work in a vehicle. An excellent example, I can put a V12 engine from an airplane into a car and it will work just fine, same speeds can be reached if I am crazy enough and have the open space to try. Look at the NASCAR vehicles, original they were supposed to be STOCK hence the S in the name, but even with the updates to the engines, which things do transfer over to normal cars over time, you can easily drive the cars on the highways, laws prevent it, but the vehicle will still run fine.
Vehicles also take another hit in how cargo carrying is rated, if I want 2 tons of cargo space I have to give up 2 tons of build weight, sorry NOT how that works, but in Battletech it is.
So really the vehicles could have all the bells and whistles that the Mechs have and they still won't challenge the mechs as king of the battlefield in any area but price, but they have been cheaper than mechs since day one.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/14/21 06:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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Not sure where you lose range, as the wiki states the ML version has the same range as the normal ML version. Same damage, with actually less heat. Costs sounding like a politician may be accurate, but when you don't have the funds of a large state like the Lyrans, you do what you can with what you have. If running a merc unit, costs are very important. Which in the end would probably result in ignoring the Chemical lasers in favor of the normal ones if you are successful.
I agree that the hit locations on a vehicle cause it to really be nerfed. Used to be facing/turret(if any) for a vehicle. So ALL fire hits that location. There isn't a spread around like the 8 locations on a mech. With the newer rules, there is the adjacent sides being a target now. In the end, any entire loss of internals removes the unit. Head and center torso are the only ones in a mech without IS XL engines that does this.
I agree whole heartedly about DHS and even Endosteel for vehicles. The DHS engines are a prime example of why they should work. It is the same one that can be pulled/put into a mech and work without issues.
And the reason why you don't fight as many vehicles is that fact people want mech on mech. They don't want mech on vehicle. So that is more player issue then game. The game DOES help cause this issue as well, since scenarios lean hard on mech on mech.
As for other points, I agree with the BS of ICE and other things. The real world shows you that you don't require a 50+ ton engine to move a 100 ton unit. Even with the slower units today, they are rated in MPH, not KPH. So they are faster then the games, while being lighter. And with the BS of the lighter materials being able to absorb the landing of a 100 ton unit that was jumping, yet can't handle the combustion of an ICE shows the flaws in the game.
The Chemical laser seems like a good choice for those that don't have the ability to make normal lasers for vehicles. That doesn't mean evey unit should mount them.
One small thing about weight carrying. It is not completely true about giving up the weight if you are not going to make it permanent. The game counters it's own rules by allowing units to carry more weight, but take a movement penalty. So their own rules violate their own rules. For vehicles, they can tow things. Would figure mechs could as well, if they hook up the cargo nets right. I don't see any canon units giving up weight in order to tow other things.
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Karagin
05/14/21 08:25 PM
70.118.172.64
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So you have a choice, use an AutoCannon (multiple variants of) with better range, same ammo dependency, or use the Chemical Laser on a vehicle that is expected to see combat...this is after, say you put a couple of normal (real) lasers on the vehicle.
Oh, your vehicle has an IC engine, okay, so really, you just limited it to being usable on planets with an atmosphere that has oxygen in it. Oh, you went fuel cell, cool, you get heat sinks with that, oh it's the power amp issue, so how much weight are you really losing by having a power amp since you ONLY need one, unless they nerfed that up, so do you really gain anything with the chemical lasers?
Now the range thing, yes, they have the same range, so why use the normal lasers at all, beyond their no ammo? At this point, these Chemical Lasers should be on ALL mechs since it takes the big issue for mechs out of the picture as well.
What I driving at is they don't strike me as really giving anything to the vehicles. They lose the advantages of the normal lasers, which makes certain vehicles pretty pointless or reduces their worth to zero as far as the game goes. Cost is only an issue for those who are playing a campaign or RPG setting, the average player doesn't worry about the cost. Need to check the BV of these, but that too is a system not everyone uses either. One thing I have noticed is you and a couple of others always bring up the price tag of the weapons and really that was never much of an issue in the 3025 setting again beyond trying to play Mechwarrior RPG and even that was rare for the majority of players.
Now if we are talking about the Houses trying to remake things, then yes cost matters, but as we have seen, if TPTB wants a House or certain unit to have something they will get it regardless of the cost and the handwaving to explain it will happen.
In all fairness the vehicles need a revamp, they don't need a silly second armor rating class like BAC, what is needed is allowing them to use EDS and DHS, better IC engines, and a revised-to-hit table that doesn't kill them in a single turn. None of which will hurt the game overall or remove the Mechs from their popular place.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/14/21 08:43 PM
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TPTB's perfect world would be nothing but mechs and armored infantry except for militia, or so it would seem.
I would love to have nothing but fusion, XL being the better part of that, sealed vehicles for no real cost. Basically an Alacorn or a Clan ultra 20 set on a Demolisher that can run on any world. Having some LAMS to allow planetary invasions as well as retreats that don't require losing everything if a unit gets disabled. But this is never going to happen as me and dice rolling have a love/hate relationship.
Chemical lasers is a minor step that can, and I repeat can, help bridge the gap between ICE using lasers and not. I can imagine spamming regiments of jeeps with them in order to overwhelm even the Dire Wolf company coming up over the ridge. So throw away units would be what the Chemical lasers would be useful on.
Now Fire Support? Not even a chance.
Putting them on normal Battle Mechs? No.
Worker Mechs with ICEs? Better then mgs.
TPTB will destroy their own game in order to come up with something to start a new war. The boogie man needs new weapons, but yet no one can use them afterwards. Much like the weapons on Xcom. It is a poor way to bring a challenge, but when you have only so many splinter groups that you can use, it becomes the main way to do so.
Yes, research will bring in new weapons, but the amount and how far advanced they are is the issue. Might was well introduce the PPC that can destroy a full city from orbit in the next wave.
Now for the hauling things issue, I remembered about the recovery vehicle. The one that weighs 70 tons but can haul a 100 ton mech. So yeah. The rules don't really stick when they do things like this.
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Karagin
05/14/21 10:12 PM
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IC engine ran vehicles can use lasers, you only NEED one power amp, it's not one per laser. In reality, would be similar to APU (Additional Power Unit) that truckers use. The zero heat thing makes no sense given that they then say vehicles aren't as tightly constructed as mechs, so yes you are right they don't make sense with their own system.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/14/21 10:31 PM
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As most know, but I will state it so anyone new will understand this, it isn't the amps that is the issue with energy weapons on vehicles. It is the heat sinks required to use them.
That weight is the killer of energy weapon use.
So for the one with the 8 MLs, would need 40 sinks with an ICE. The Chemical lasers removes the need for that weight. The ammo changes the efficiency of weight to damage, as the ammo needs to be figured in.
The statement of the vehicles not being as tightly constructed makes another question come up. Would a vehicle that is sealed against the environment cause it to heat up like a mech would with ballistic and missile weapons? I would think sealing it up would be to keep the fluids, like water, out of the working parts, like the mechs armor is supposed to do.
At least that is what I figured the reason for the missile/ballistics heating up the mech does. No way to just vent that into the air around it. I could be wrong on this assumption.
I would think the ICE would need oxygen tanks to keep the engine running on top of the crews air needs. As much fuel the tanks use, it sounds underweight for the sealant. Picky, but still comes into question.
The sealant is used for void worlds as well, so a snorkel isn't going to cut it all the time.
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Karagin
05/14/21 11:33 PM
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Lots of issues with the vehicles and yes the heat sinks are the big issue, but these retro-tech toys are really no better than AutoCannons, and you get roughly the same overall performance from those. All you get with these things is the dice game, you get to play the many things firing so that means I munchkin my way to a win.
8 Med ChLs all need 8s to hit, so do you roll each on their own? One big roll an all or nothing thing? Do you use the missile tables to figure out damage to speed things up akin the missiles?
No different than the Ontos from back in the 3025/3026 TRO, 8 MLs same idea, unload at close range, have the sinks, have the armor, don't have the speed, but the vehicle is not meant for speed. The original item in question takes the hovercraft approach and where is that any different than taking a 20 or 25-ton mech and doing all Clan tech Med Pulse Lasers, max sinks, max armor, etc...and running around hit the rear of everything?
My group has a TON of home tech weapons, some are okay, some aren't really meant for use beyond one-off games, and some things we just tried out based on something we read about in a technical book or some book on upcoming weapons. The "Rifles" that came out that were the forerunners of the AutoCannons according to the powers that be, are no different. And using their logic, it would be like last year you were facing enemy forces with M4 Carbines and body armor, and today they have STG44s, no body armor, and throwing grenades vs using a grenade launcher attached to their weapons and you find out later the why is because someone found out they could be made cheaper or a large stockpile was found.
I could buy into the chemical lasers IF they were set up as before the Age of War weapons that were slowly phased out for real lasers. But that's not how they did this.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
05/14/21 11:36 PM
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The heat thing with the chemical lasers isn't why they came about:
Quote:
In 3059, the Clan Hell's Horses Scientist and Technician Castes received a mandate from their Khan: Find a way to make lasers that didn't need power amplifiers. With the preponderance of combat vehicles in their Touman, the Hell's Horses Khans wanted to devote more vehicle tonnage to weapons and armor instead of the power amplifiers required by units lacking fusion engines.
So which is it? If these were suppose to be about not needing the power amps then why monkey with their heat?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/15/21 04:08 AM
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Timing and retconning are horrible in the game. Ideas came out long after they should have, and are shoved down our throats suggesting they were there all the time.
The original complaint about SL tech never being in caches that people could find in the 3025 era starts it for the original release.
The evolution of weapons has made some very dangerous ones which make the originals look like toys. There isn't an argument there. That does not mean the originals are completely worthless. A few modifications can make them dangerous without the need for high tech.
Will they compete with the high end ones? Probably not.
Can they be effective with a few mods? Possible.
Now as we know, TPTB have a tendency to make horrible decisions in their writing. The concept of the Horses complaining about the power amps is stupid. The heat sinks is far more of an issue with requiring weight. But someone didn't think before writing that.
Each weapon should require it's own roll, meaning 8 lasers use 8 different rolls. As stated in the first response, I mentioned the Ontos as the unit in question looked like a hover version with a solution to the heat. Something that shows the developers really didn't look thru everything before releasing more ideas. Imagine if they had a faster unit with Small Chemical lasers to get in close. 16 shots with 3 points of damage per hit. It would be a crit looking unit, much like having all mgs. But this could be used on mechs as well, with DHS covering the heat. And the mech could still do physicals if done right and in range.
I would think they will retcon the heat back in, as this will cause issues as it takes away part of the supposed superiority of mechs out, as this will help vehicles make a decent showing.
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Karagin
05/15/21 01:12 PM
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I hope they retcon them OUT of the game along without 90% of the crap we got from 2004 forward. Then again I can wish a new Lamboighi and I know both will not happen, but I have a better chance of getting the car in the long run.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
05/17/21 05:31 PM
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Quote:
I could buy into the chemical lasers IF they were set up as before the Age of War weapons that were slowly phased out for real lasers. But that's not how they did this.
Agree with this in general, but would make an exception for a few deep periphery nations, the Castillians for example. Even by 3060s/3070s they were using Primitive tech mechs and vehicles and apparently none of them mounted normal lasers - only missiles and ballistic weapons. Their experience with fusion technology is too recent for them to have reached that state of development, but they'd have made a great choice to come up with chemical-based lasers as a low-tech alternative.
Clan Hell's Horses introducing it though? That was indeed stupid, as many things were during that timeframe of Battletech development. Few Clan combat vehicles had ICEs anyway so it defeats the purpose the Khans were trying to make. The Huey has one though its artillery role eliminates a practical need to develop a new weapon class to mount a few more weapons. Zorya as well but all indications are that it had long been assigned to second-line formations in the Horses by 3059 (maybe a few still in front-line amongst the Cloud Cobras and Blood Spirits.) So the premise that chemical lasers were needed to free up space in their tanks doesn't jive because they are practically entirely fusion-powered.
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ghostrider
05/18/21 07:49 PM
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Vehicles seem to have been meant to only use ballistic and Missile weapons, since they need sinks for energy weapons.
It appears that TPTB did not want vehicles to do as mechs, and stand at a distance taking pot shots. They also seemed to have wanted tanks as target practice, not actual viable defense units.
How many of their fanboys wants to face a Demolish, Schrek, or even an SRM/LRM carrier that doesn't die on the first hit?
This concept may well be part of the reason why they don't want clan tech in the IS. Half weight launchers means the missile carriers can have some decent armor.
Who wants to go up against a Rifleman IIC that is a tracked vehicle? Even an Alacorn with clantech?
That would require skill to maneuver into a good spot and fire on it. Otherwise, a poor choice will probably mean death to the mech.
Instead, they wanted the crap WOB tech out there, and then made it all go boom so the houses, especially vehicle makers, could not use that tech and make them have to rethink mechs as a whole.
Rewriting them so they have bigger advantages over tanks is something they don't want to do. But this may lead back to the lack of real playtesting before releasing the 'newer' stuff. Maybe hiring or consulting the min/max people to see where things can be abused.
Having DHS and Endosteel, along with the lighter ICE, would make people soil their draws when facing vehicles, instead of laughing. Vehicles should have better skilled crews then mechs, as they are easier to train in. Yet this isn't shown.
The semi fix of crits may have scared them too much, as a single mg isn't as likely to kill the unit. They might as well add a few tons of weight for each component that goes onto a tank to make sure they aren't a challenge to mechs.
Edited by ghostrider (05/18/21 07:50 PM)
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Karagin
05/19/21 12:31 AM
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Ghostrider you are talking as if giving them DHS and Endo will fix all their issues, it won't. Run a solo game, take your wonder versions of the vehicles you named give them only DHS, keep EVERYTHING else the same. No changes to their damage hit tables. The run four of them against a Medium to Heavy Lance or a mix of the two, and you will still watch the vehicles die faster than the mechs do.
Given the vehicles, the two things they need aren't going to make them better than mechs. The big why is because the terrain still limits them. Where mechs can go through all-terrain the vehicles are hampered by it.
No mech is going to fear vehicles with DHS and ENDO or a better IC engine, UNLESS the damage hit table is adjusted and the turret gets four facings areas or the extra damage done when certain areas are hit is adjusted to take into account the special armors and such.
Seriously you sound just like those of TPTB who keep saying NO to giving vehicles what they should already have.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/19/21 03:17 AM
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I was suggesting TPTB didn't seem to want vehicles to actually challenge mech pilots. DHS and Endosteel won't make them super units, but would give them more ability to actually do the job they are meant to do. They are guard units when mechs aren't available. And yet, they look like they are supposed to run out of ammo and fail, while mechs can do hit and runs with energy weapons and not worry about not being able to fire if a heat sink is hit.
If you recall, I was one of those that said that vehicles SHOULD be able to use that stuff, with the examples of the DHS engines functions magically failing if installed in a vehicle. The entire concept of Endosteel was used for an example of a stronger material that could very well be used to make lighter ICEs. But that seems to scares TPTB.
Since they started limiting what can fit inside a vehicle, there really isn't much excuse for not allowing them to use more advanced equipment, other then not wanting the excuse of limiting tech would show up as a major blunder.
As stated, all damage to a vehicle used to be focused on the facing towards the enemy and the turret if it had one. So it was easier to kill tanks faster, as all damage was to 1(2) possible locations. Internal gone and so is the unit. 10 internals max makes it that much easier. Now the two adjacent sides can possibly be hit. I can agree with that. But in the end, a unit with no turret carrying the same armor as an Atlas, dies faster as all damage hits up to 5 locations now, with any depletion of internals meaning death. This is not counting crits, as that was discussed in earlier posts.
I was pointing out the clan tech makes vehicles a lot more tougher with missiles at least. DHS allows vehicles to mount energy weapons, giving them the ability, without crits, to stay on the field a little longer. No ammo to run out or explode.
And the fact that mechs can go thru terrain vehicles can't is fine. It is what makes mechs superior mobility.
An Ontos tank with DHS can mount even more lasers, or even upgrade to large lasers.
Armored movement components for vehicles is more threatening then DHS. No more instant destruction of movement.
The previous post was full of sarcasm for the fanboys crying about a real challenge from vehicles. It was not saying that vehicles should not be a challenge, possibly a large enough threat to have mechs retreat or be destroyed. The idea that only a mech can beat a mech seems prevalent in a lot of cases. I really think most of them don't want to have to use tactics in order to take out tanks like you have to with mechs.
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Wick
05/19/21 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Vehicles should have better skilled crews then mechs, as they are easier to train in. Yet this isn't shown.
I disagree. Vehicles are worked by a steering wheel, levers and buttons. Mechs are controlled in part by the neurohelmet. This enables mechs to react faster (piloting skill) and aim better (gunnery skill) than tanks. Sure there is training involved, and to properly train a mechwarrior takes longer than to train a vehicle crew, but at the end of the day a properly trained mechwarrior should have greater skill levels than a properly trained vehicle crew thanks to the mental link to their machine. Ditto for aerospace fighters and protomechs.
The argument really shouldn't be about what kind of equipment the tanks can or can't mount, but that they should be capped at a poor skill level. Even the best tank crew shouldn't have a skill level better than a Regular mechwarrior, and certainly not a Veteran level mechwarrior. My home group made the assumption that the average tank crew had 6/6 skills based on this fact, because it wasn't defined in either Citytech or Battletech Compendium (the effective rules at the time.) Tanks and troopers would miss frequently and be easy pickings for mechs, but made up for it by being cheap and numerous - exactly as things should be. But then FASA fumbled things in 2000 with Master Rules, giving them the same 5 piloting, 4 gunnery as mechwarriors, which makes tanks truly comparable to mechs. Sure mechs are still better one on one, but if the skill points are equal, c-bill for c-bill the tanks are a far better investment. It doesn't matter what kinds of equipment you keep from them, be it endo steel, double heat sinks, or even XL engines (as were originally forbidden on tanks), players and designers will find a way around it though particular weapon choices. Even LRM and SRM carriers with poor armor are very dangerous when their gunnery skills are low enough to be accurate with their shots - the only way to turn them back into the piles of crap they were intended to be is to hobble them with terrible gunnery skills (if not driving as well). FASA should have never made tank crews the equal of mechwarriors. It didn't make sense fictionally, and made even less sense balance-wise when the rule was defined.
Edited by Wick (05/19/21 07:07 PM)
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ghostrider
05/19/21 09:20 PM
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The argument for tank crews to be capped at a certain level is mainly done by tank crews being killed so easily in the older days. Now that they aren't killed 1/2 of the time they get a crit on them, the skills should be even better.
The crews are easier to train, and keep training then a mech pilot is. But then this is going back to when they said that even keeping a mech upright wasn't easy.
The single pilot has to try and control everything on the mech. That is especially true with balance, as every thing you do creates a constant need for control. Moving the arms means shifting the stance to avoid over extending the mech. Poor footing and such doesn't help. The neural helmet only does so much. I will agree that the better skilled pilots are less likely to be affected by things like a water slick surface, but that is reflected in their skills. 6/6 skills for a tank crew being average might only be close to accurate when you consider all the untrained militia and new crews being trained.
The cooperation in the crew might seem to be an issue, if you look at it like every member has the attitude that they are the only ones that can run a tank. When they work as they should, a well oiled machine, they are far better at keeping things working right.
And this removes the fact that not all tanks have more then one crew member. The Savanah Master being a well known single crew tank. Most everyone gets some training in ground vehicles, as most will learn to at least drive a normal vehicle. That is not saying that driving the farm tractor is anything like driving a hover tank, but you start off with more skills then trying to walk a biped mech. Quads would be a bit easier as you have four feet, not two.
Most tanks have more crew, but not all are part of driving/gunner. Coms, loaders, and a few others don't do anything but relay information or do what mechs have autoloaders for. Driving and gunnery are the only things that really matter in combat. The mech warrior has a lot to deal with besides point/shoot and walk.
As stated, the main reason why a mech warrior would outshine a tank crew is because they should survive longer to gain the more skills. So I do agree that there should be less tank crews in the better skill ranges, I don't think that they are worse off then a mech warrior with the same skill level.
Also, a tank crew should actually be better at dealing with terrain then a mech, as the driver is watching where they are going, and not focusing on getting the targeting crosshairs on a unit to the left or right. Even straight ahead, a mech doesn't always see what they are stepping on.
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Karagin
05/19/21 10:35 PM
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Wick your idea on tank crews is insane. I am sorry but they have a guy whose main job is gunnery, then a driver who is going to be damn good at his job, then you have the commander who makes sure the two can get their butts to the fight and keep them focused, so yes they should be as good as the MechWarrior they fight.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/20/21 11:09 PM
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Have you ever tried to snap fire a weapon? It isn't as easy as you might see in the movies. This is the sort of thing that mech pilots tend to do, as each round is supposed to be 10 seconds. This is also why I think the laser needing to focus is a bit off. Now if you only had say a single weapon, like a Stinger making a shot without the MGs, then it is a bit easier. But this is also supposed to be going on with things like jumping and the enemy doing what they can to keep from being hit. Just a simple tic from say fatigue, could very well ruin shots with that arm.
The Neural helmet only helps keep balance. It is not the end all for moving the limbs where they need to be, much less making a torso twist just the right amount to fire the weapons. So for one person, it is a lot to concentrate on while trying to get hits. Not that it is impossible, and for some, it isn't even hard.
Suggesting that more then one person being involved in running a war machine means inefficiency isn't quite right. If there is a new person or even attitudes between the crew members, then it is right on the money. But those crews will probably die quickly, and never really get their skills up to 5 gun, much less 4.
I guess an example of good team work is some of the tank crews in say the Abrahms. Firing and hitting targets while both are moving full out, and firing 2 shots in under 10 seconds. Now firing only one gun can be an argument there, as multiple weapons would require more skill, just like firing torso mounted LRMs with lasers in the arms.
In the end, tank crews should start off with better skills, as they train far more then mech pilots do, because of finances to begin with. Finding a 2/2 crew for a tank should be extremely rarer then a 4/4 mech. That doesn't mean the vehicle crews are bad at their jobs.
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Wick
05/22/21 05:29 PM
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So you guys don't think the neurohelmet does what the canon says it does? Where do you see it said that it doesn't help aiming? If it allows fine motor control to dodge incoming shots and pick up items with hand actuators, then it surely helps raise a weapon arm or orient torso facing toward a target. For an experienced mechwarrior, this will be a reflex action translated into mech movement, and faster than the best driver and gunner can move and aim with mechanical controls. I don't at all buy the argument that gunner and driver who are damn good at their jobs are better than a mechwarrior's brain that is good at his. Why have neurohelmet at all if its worse than good training and/or good teamwork using mechanical controls? I don't see any mechs running around with a crew of three or four pulling switches and levers and pressing buttons to do all the work. If well trained crews were better than a neurohelmet, surely someone in 700 years would have discovered it and built mechs around such a concept. If you're going to call me insane for supporting neurohelmets, I've got to call you guys insane for implying that idea would be better.
Furthermore, when the Mackie and other first generation mechs were introduced, they completely dominated all the tanks, despite hundreds of years of tank development and training, and a mere couple of years of mech development and training. Totally green mechwarriors were destroying companies of veteran-crewed tanks with ease. Something (the neurohelmet) gives mechs such a significant edge in battle that the best tanks and tank crews just aren't in the same league. Since the construction rules did not critically hamper tanks, it was widely assumed by players 9at least the ones I knew) that it must be through skill ratings. Since it was a 0-6 scale and only mechwarriors were defined at 5/4, the assumption was that tanks and infantry were 6/6 by default. I'm not suggesting a 6/6 tank crew is bad (an equivalent 8/8 crew would be bad) - its just that if mechwarriors are generally 5/4, then common sense dictated that the tankers had to take a few steps back to mirror the performance described in canon. FASA simply blew it by not taking this into account when declaring both mechwarriors and tankers started with the same skill ratings in Master Rules. (It messed up game balance so much that unit cost tourneys suddenly shifted to be vehicle heavy, taking the focus off of mechs. With Dark Age doing the same, it ruined the game for a lot of us old-timers. We couldn't be competitive without also going tank heavy. They even had to introduce the BV concept - and revise it later - to move people off of unit cost tourneys to get mechs back into the fold with modern BV-based tourneys.)
But, if you want to have a 5/4 tank crew fresh out of training, fine. If you want to explain that its easier to train them and that they can somehow work as well as a singular brain, I'll concede the point that a green or regular mechwarrior and tank crew can start their career at roughly the same 5/4 point. But the mechwarrior has a trump card to prove themselves better and that's through the crucible of experience. In game terms, skill levels are only improved through battlefield experience, not through training. Surviving a battle scenario earns an experience point that can be used to buy an upgrade to piloting/driving (4 points) or gunnery skill (8 points.) As mechs are the foremost military might, they are involved in more battle scenarios than tanks and will earn experience points faster. Unless you go all Dark Age silliness and send your vehicles into battle first, then mechwarriors will advance quicker than tank crews. I know this isn't analogous to real-world examples, and downplays the value of simulators and wargames, but that's the way the rules work. If the rules give them 5/4 skills to start, then you have to concede that the rules involving skill improvement implies that the mechwarrior will probably advance faster. And given the native survivability of mechs compared to tanks, will often continue to grow rather than dying in battle. The end result is that a veteran mechwarrior should be considerably better than veteran tank crews, and elite mechwarriors should have almost no equal amongst tankers. A 2/2 tank crew should be exceptionally rare. If starting at 5/4 that's 28 scenarios survived - while not at all easy for mechwarrriors to reach that many, very few tank crews would be so lucky.
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ghostrider
05/22/21 09:40 PM
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Your description of the Neurohelmet only suggests that the tank crews are even more skilled then the mech pilot. They don't have the connection in order to move the weapons into position as easily.
But this is sort of moot. A skill of 5 is a skill of 5. Weither you are 12 meters off the ground, or on you belly like infantry sneaking up on a unit, it is still the same thing.
This question: Why have neurohelmet at all if its worse than good training and/or good teamwork using mechanical controls? suggests forgetting the main reason why mechs have them. They help keep the balance of the unit. No matter what else they do, they help keep the mech upright as the primary reason they exist.
I do admit the updated information in the wiki does support the helm being useful for more then just balance, but it also says physical actions needed to do things in conjunction with it.
Reading a bit more after the neurohelmet question, you might need to reread how the mechs work. They do require levels and such to move the unit as well as fire. Even the fiction says things like torso twisting means turning the control sticks and such. The helm is not a control all of the mech. Also, this seems to forget they do have dual cockpits that allow two people to work a mech, and it is supposed to be better when they do. I do question if the dual cockpit is better, as someone controlling the arms may well throw off the balance of the unit, or the pilot needing to use them to help balance, causing the gunner to miss.
There is a few issues with the next paragraph. Saying the helm was what gives the mech the advantage is incorrect. It helps with mobility, which is a major advantage over tanks. And when the game first came out, vehicles died very quickly due to TPTB wanting to make the mech king. 1/2 of all confirmed crits destroyed the tank. For a mech to die in one hit, even an mg, it would need a 2 on the hit locations, then a 12(3 crits/limb blown off) hitting all engine, or the gyro. Also, mechs do have the ability to physically attack vehicles when in range. This is also ignoring the issues with all hits destroying one or two locations as well as very limited internals which when destroyed, takes out the unit unless it is the turret. There is no continuing when you lose a part of it like a mech.
The 5/4 mechwarrior isn't straight out of training. It is the skills that TPTB decided would be best to allow a play to actually do some killing rather then missing so much and dying. There is no fun in constantly dying as you couldn't hit the barn sitting next to you with a mech with 20 mgs. Tanks were originally meant to die to mechs, so they weren't damaged so badly when they did fight other mechs. The hero of the stories is the mech pilot. It doesn't help having the hero on death's door just after stepping out of their own home.
Another misconception, but very understandable. Tanks are the main forces that are dealing with far more then mechs. Infantry being even more commonly used. Mechs are the 'elite' of the game, and gain all the credit for everything. The game is slanted that way. The main garrisons and even assault units are tanks and infantry. Mechs are used for the do or die parts of any assault/defense. The one exception to this is hot drops, as the original game did not allow even infantry to do so. Infantry HALO gear came out much later.
Now the last part I said and agree with. A 2/2 tank unit is very rare. They tend to die from crits before getting there. Mech warriors live far longer then average tank crews, and that isn't as much about skills as it is about the units themselves.
I have yet to hear of any unit putting mechs out to slow down and run an enemy unit out of ammo. Tanks are the go to for that, as infantry don't have the range or punch to do so. Most forget about this, and think only mechs are the main forces for anything.
Tanks are limited by a lot of things, such as canyons. A mech can jump or climb to pass one, but a tank can not do so, except maybe the Kanga. Now WiGEs.
But as stated a 5/5 unit is skilled as any other 5/5 unit.
There are a few scenarios where the recruits of a mech are sent out with 8/8 skills. Most don't do this as it is very frustrating to do anything, even running over rough terrain. Any piloting roll tends to send you to the ground, and getting back up is about worthless. Hitting anything is about the same.
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Requiem
05/23/21 04:33 AM
1.158.176.232
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Tank warfare has changed … suggest you watch the following West Point lecture by Dr. Phillip Karber - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CMby_WPjk4
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/24/21 12:31 AM
70.118.172.64
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Tanks are more digital and more driven by things that are found in neurohelmets and HUDs, they are working on taking the tracking links that they use on the Apache gun system and linking that to the Tank Commander (TC) so the remote weapons platforms are able to be better used.
The main gun firing systems are linking more things to the helmets and doing more to allow the gunner to be better at what they.
Vehicles in Battletech have been nerfed since day one of the game because the focus was on the late 70s early 80s crazy for MECHA, big stompy robots trashing everything. Go watch Sun of the Fang Dougram, Robotech, etc...and you will find the vehicles don't last long, and oh wait, correct if I am wrong, but they mechs and such come from anime from the same time frame.
Get the CityTech rule book, the original one, look at the Falcon hovertank (hey here is another name reused later on for the Wolf's Dragoon Falcon mech) and they give a decent tank, yet trying using it against even the original version of the mechs and it's toast in two turns, this because of the damage to-hit location table and how unbalanced that is.
You can give vehicles everything extra and mechs still win because the damage hit tables favor the mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/24/21 07:12 AM
1.158.176.232
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As pointed out, however, during Victors final push to dethrone his sister.
Utilize a regiment of artillery and then work out how many Mechs survive – especially when it comes to fighting the Clans – how many spotters can you have over any area especially if you have created a kill box?
A point that is seriously lacking within the game especially when you consider how many should be self propelled artillery class?
Then when you use them in concert with Bombers – VTOLs – Fighter bombers etc
Then when the dust clears you send in infantry with HE to finish anything off that is prone on the ground ….
The point is clear the Mech may think it is King of the Battlefield and yet if it is caught in the open and in range of vast number of tanks it should end up a smear on the landscape! As how easy is it to manufacture a tank plant Vs a Mech plant?
Which again brings the question back to cost effectiveness of your weapon systems …… and the question of strategies and tactics within the game as well as TO&E per planet when it is invaded and how many regular forces should be included in any battle.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/24/21 01:52 PM
45.51.181.83
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Numbers tend to have the advantage, so regiments of tanks verses even a battalion isn't a fair comparison. Even weight can be misleading. A 20 ton mech verses a 20 ton tank will probably have the mech winning more often then not. The hit locations give the mech a better chance to survive, as the to hit numbers will be high. The tank is more likely to have ammo dependent weapons on it, so they can't just potshot all day long. Mechs can with their energy weapons, if they have medium range. Small lasers aren't going to work well for this, though can be helpful when in range.
Sorry to the person that said this, but aircraft are the game changer, as they can take down units without too much worry of accurate return fire. This is true. I think this is a big part of why they nerfed aerofighters. The shortening of the strafe has removed them from being the real threat to land based units. I don't disagree that the original strafe was overly powerful, but 5 hexes seem a bit to little.
The real life things with self propelled artillery doesn't really work in BT. The to hits screw this issue up. Then again, if it was easy to hit with artillery, then even mechs couldn't do much against forts and bunker positions. Orbital bombardments, with is basically artillery fired from orbit, would be the main way to deal with such places.
I just realized what might be causing the issue of unit skills on vehicles to some. The idea of a bunch of backwater party boys going out on the weekend to do their militia training is no where near the training of front line vehicle units. So it could very well be seen that those backwater units would be very poorly skilled verses the main line units.
This could be used for mechs as well, but a mech pilot has to be better skilled at piloting at least, otherwise they would run up huge repair bills as well as having to have recovery vehicles go out to pick up a fallen mech. Even with a neurohelmet, an poorly skilled pilot can't get a mech standing easily.
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Karagin
05/24/21 04:38 PM
70.118.172.64
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A regiment of tanks will still die facing the regiment of mechs. The mechs care MORE firepower overall and have a better spread on the damage, and that is the key.
Mechs have roughly 12 areas to apply damage to, tanks (vehicles in general) have four to six depending on vehicle type, the majority being tanks, hovertanks, and VTOLs. This is where mechs will dominate regardless of what tech the vehicle is using.
Try it, build a tank using Endo and DHS, run it against some mechs, and watch it die fast. Go look at the vehicle to hit the table, note all the little numbers next to it, then read the extra damage those add or as some will say the disadvantages, then look at the mechs, oh you took some damage to your legs no big deal you can move at half speed, oh you lost an entire torse and arm, big deal still in the fight.
Some of you keep trying to explain away things, there is nothing to explain away, the messed up with the vehicles and simply don't want to change them. Vehicles are so bad that even the attempts in the craptastic clicky tech setting failed to really give them anything since even there the focus was on the mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/24/21 06:17 PM
1.158.176.232
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regiments of tanks verses even a battalion isn't a fair comparison
This is the point, one RCT vs assaulting unit - how many vehicles are available?
And how many MCT are in the Heavy - Assault Category?
Also how many have been converted over to all energy weapons?
Also nerfing a ‘branches of the military’ because it is too powerful (Aerospace – Bombers etc) or have been restricted in their movement / firepower (Infantry) proves the game has lost the plot – this is supposed to be a military warfare!
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if it was easy to hit with artillery, then even mechs couldn't do much against forts and bunker positions. Orbital bombardments, with is basically artillery fired from orbit, would be the main way to deal with such places.
This is one of the main black holes of the game …
Science fiction game built into space warfare equals a massive number of warships (it should be a given that almost every world should have a space fortresses (from small to absolutely massive) above them – where every world can then repair jumpships to those that can also accommodate military ships. It is a space opera after all!
Restricting the games warships has only made the game worse!
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The idea of a bunch of backwater party boys going out on the weekend to do their militia training is no where near the training of front line vehicle units. So it could very well be seen that those backwater units would be very poorly skilled verses the main line units.
And how many worlds – based on population and technology level should have a very well trained and supplied military? As how easy is it to build military vehicles?
Plus how many countries Reserves are better trained than some of the worlds leading armies active soldiers? Just looking at the negatives proves nothing – must look at all the possibilities.
Twycross – Population 1.2 Billion Technological Sophistication – Advanced
Given this information they should have a massive Military Industrial complex building everything except for Mechs on massive numbers + a reserve unit that should be incredibly well trained – Population of USA 2019 is only 328 million and how many reserve and active units do they have?
So even when you are discussing Clan Galaxies and orbital bombardments I will be discussing massive number or combined arms forces + long and short range nukes + what should have been in orbit massive orbital space stations with massive weaponry.
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A regiment of tanks will still die facing the regiment of mechs.
What happens when you have a single world that should have a massive number of RCT Units (Minus the mechs) + with a massive airforce of conventional fighters + Bombers vesus a Clan Galaxy?
What happens when you send massive bombers with massive payloads over a clan LZ – how many fighters do they usually have for an air superiority battle Vs how many an inner sphere unit should have + missiles that should have been designed to take them out like the SAM?
Take Twycross – then take a comparable sized military US / Russia / China etc and work out a comparable military strength based upon population and technology – guess what unless the Clan starts using massive number of orbital bombardments it is going to get nerfed – it just does not have the military numbers to sustain a protracted war for any length of time!
This is the point – the game requires a massive overhaul or ditch the pretence that vehicles / fighters / infantry / warships etc. should even be in the game at all and only allow Mechs Vs Mechs. (and how believable is this in a space opera – warfare game?)
As for the current vehicles rules – someone really needs to overhaul them!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/24/21 06:37 PM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem, let's see, if four mechs or tanks make up a lance and 12 of these make up a company, and three companies make up a battalion and three or four battalions make up a regiment, the math is easy.
It's not about the category, it's about mechs vs vehicles. Even a medium mech cares more firepower than most heavy vehicles, then add in the agility of the mech, did you recall that terrain stops vehicles? Like most can't even enter light woods and god forbid there is a stream since you need special equipment for the vehicles to cross that.
Fighters vs tanks, that will mean a lot of dead vehicles since those fighters would be aerospace they can still win mainly because they can fly back to orbit. Since the ground forces can overrun the airfield and poof dead confighters. Do note I kept this the ground units vs ground units, so your counterpoint is not even in the same realm or scope.
The idea of Wick's that tank crews are somehow undertrained or just not well trained is a wrong one to draw. No military is going to let their armor units be a total mess. Even the most third-world country will train their forces as best they can and they will have units that can perform on or close to the next nation's best. To say that the militia on WBFE is not well trained just because they don't have mechs is a sure-fire way of getting your munchkin player unit will all that cool high-tech Post-Jihad wonder weapons rear ends handed to them.
Running joke, trees start speaking Ewok you know you are in trouble.
What the game needs is the rules fine tuned, they need the vehicles revamped and on par with mechs as far as tech goes and the damage location table revamped to make things more in line of stopping the one hit one kill that only happens to mech if rare changes, where as the vehicles have 5 or more from a single yep your rolled the numbers you need to hit.
The game doesn't require a massive overhaul, it needs certain things tweaked to fix the issues. It needs to be revised to allow things to follow a better path that doesn't grossly weight things in favor one unit type over another.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/24/21 10:47 PM
45.51.181.83
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The question of how many heavy/assault vehicles are in a regiment of tanks can not be answered. Every unit is different.
For some, jeeps are about the only thing the locals can afford and use, while others might well have nothing but Hunters. I would also suspect that tactics will play a part in this as well. Demolishers might well be stationed in a factory that the enemy wants to capture, so won't risk long range shots to hammer them, while a smart commander may well have Pikes and Partisans guarding a ridge, with PPC/LRM carriers in the mix. With the introduction of SL, then Clan tech, this becomes even more difficult to deal with. With good reserves, the Alacorn tank is a brute in defense with reinforced emplacements. Nice lines of fire, with plenty of scouting support. No artillery on the invaders side, it can be that a company could hold off a battalion of mechs. But then if those defenders have a skill no better then say 6 gun, then this reverses quickly.
I don't suggest that even up, tanks are even remotely equal to mechs that are the same style/weight configurations. Missile and ballistics makes tanks able to avoid overheating, but the lack of ammo tends to doom them in any fight that lasts longer then 20 or so rounds. Granted, most tanks don't seem to last that long before a crit pretty much cripples them. The larger armor ability doesn't really do much to counter the lack of areas that can be hit on the tank as well.
The game seemed to put in vehicles as a way to gain skill points to level up without having to fight other mechs when you have horrible skills.
The game wanted mechs to be king, but yet wanted to have them in short supply, so they had to have something to prevent others from just walking in and taking their possessions. So tanks were it. But they seemed to be put in as a token resistance, which goes along with their main logic, that reality and logic have no real place in the game. Other games that use robot mechs don't seem to be able to be killed in one shot like BT. But all seem to allow those robots to just wipe out large chunks of vehicles without an issue. You have a large logic hole there, as most would ask why bother wasting resources on the vehicles if they can't stop the robots? All resources should go to making something that CAN stop the robots.
The story line of the game, as well as the rules, doesn't work with real logic. An artillery regiment should be able to wipe out a square kilometer without much of an issue, depending on the ordinance used. And yet, the game makes sure you can't, otherwise people would bunker up with the artillery, making it impossible to assault the defenses. Even trying to move up artillery to fire back wouldn't work, as the spotters should see this and call down shots to destroy the enemy artillery. Tube mounted artillery on mechs would be the only real way a ground battle would have a chance. Everything else requires set up time. Some fast hover craft with the fastest of mechs might be able to clear the blast zones fast enough, but would tend to lack the firepower to stop the artillery, as any smart commander would have nice walls protecting the artillery.
Basically, the mech, the way it is set up, can't be king if ANYTHING is not nerfed to the abyss to prevent a fair shot.
As stated so many times, people want to play big stompy mechs that use physical attacks from time to time. So the game logic has to make that a reality, or people don't play.
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Requiem
05/25/21 07:31 AM
1.158.176.232
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Quote:
Do note I kept this the ground units vs ground units, so your counterpoint is not even in the same realm or scope.
Please re-read Chaper 10 Sun Tzu’s The art of war. – re: Choosing your terrain.
Pick the correct terrain where a military comprises the correct vehicles for that terrain en mass and no clan force aside from combining multiple Galaxies for a sing world should be able to put up a decent fight.
Loss depletion report (sibko replacement system) + Logistical instability (6 months distant) + unable to garrison worlds effectively (trinary per world and by the 2/3rds mark no clan should have any forces left to continue the fight) = The Clans would never have been able to win the first Invasion!
Re-write please !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as a cat flap in a nuclear sub makes more sense at this stage.
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The question of how many heavy/assault vehicles are in a regiment of tanks can not be answered. Every unit is different.
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The story line of the game, as well as the rules, doesn't work with real logic.
And this is the primary Black hole!
Sooner or later someone is going to come along with a game that is built upon view of realism. When that occurs how long will Battletech Last?
If Battletch wants Just Mechs they it should be written that way!
Problem is they have introduced all other military areas – so either fix it or kill it off once and for all.
So, bring in logic or Kill it off once and for all!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/25/21 10:20 AM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem, you are trying to compare apples to oranges.We are talking about vehicles vs mechs and things that need to be either allowed or changed.
NOT Conventional fighters vs vehicles. The Confighters are just as messed up, but they have more issues than the vehicles and that requires rule changes where as vehicles don't require massive rule changes.
How about sticking to the subject and stop trying to turn this towards your pet peeves.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/25/21 12:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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The only time you get to choose your terrain is IF the enemy agrees to it. In the time Sun Tzu wrote his book, battles were not fought where armies could move and fight over miles of terrain in an hour or so. Yes, you can put up defensive units in the terrain you want to protect, but when you have to defend a specific point, like a city, you do not have the options that you would want.
You have to fight in what is there. And more then a few times, that does NOT give you an advantage. As said before, LRMs in an area with heavy forest that is widespread doesn't work well. IDF was introduced after the game was going, but without a spotter, can't be done. And to my knowledge you need special training for it, so any single person in a tank can't call for it. Now the next argument would be train everyone to be able to do so. Not feasible, as it costs. Yes, real life economics does have an impact. The game doesn't really address the IDF issue as it should. It avoids having to slow down the game in order for someone to have to stop firing to perform the duty. And simply calling out where the target is compared to you doesn't work, otherwise the artillery section is completely wrong. Also, this would mean MGs and such could kill far more infantry in the 30 meter hex. Even a mech doesn't cover the whole thing. Yes, the to hit roll can be use to simulate the problems, but this still needs to be addressed.
I can guarantee any sort of rewrite would not come out the way you want. There are some instances that logic, at our current technology, will never fit. So far PPCs and jump drives are out of our reach. Even the ability to reach the jump point in 7 days here in the Sol system is beyond us. The way the story is and goes would be different but not the way you want.
As it is part of the world today, they will continue to have to avoid discrimination as much as they can, or be sued. The CC should have died in the 4th war. I dislike the fact it remains, but this isn't because of the war, but real life politics. Oh well. I can hate it all I want, but it isn't going to change.
Another point just came to mind about the numbers of assaults in each regiment. How many regiments have remained the same after any battle? Major or small? A simple lance on lance will result in something being destroyed. SO no matter what you think is the 'perfect' unit, it will change after combat. And in the game, replacing units with the same ones is NOT likely. Atlas, Awesome 8Q, Stalkers, and such are in very limited supplies. With this, tanks are a little less rare, so you would be more likely to, but not always able to, replace the destroyed ones.
And as much as you hate it, costs are a very big thing when run logically. Planets having only a hundred million for defense, can't buy a dropship every year. Replacing not only units but fixing things like bunkers and walls is part of that. Even building new ones. That budget gets eaten up quickly without purchasing new units.
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Requiem
05/25/21 07:06 PM
1.158.176.232
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First, Clan way of fighting dictates they will attack the defending force wherever they are, thus the defending force can prearrange a good defensive position. So the Sun Tzu principles are still viable.
Thus, if the ground has been pre-arranged in advance for a clan strike – as they were moving in a straight line – it really should not have been difficult!
Second, every soldier should be trained in calling in an artillery strike. Plus given the number of Drones that should be on the Battlefield that are lined into one massive communication web calling in an artillery strike should not be that difficult.
As for cost – this training is included in basic Boot camp so really it is feasible!
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I can guarantee any sort of rewrite would not come out the way you want.
Simple logic is all I want within the game – is this soooo difficult that it cannot be included?
If you had a world of 1.2 billion how many regular forces + military industrial capabilities should be present to keep society going? It really is not that difficult to work out.
Plus how can any Clan force garrison such a world when they DO NOT have the capabilities to do so? Sorry but this is stretching the realms of what can and can’t be done to breaking point!
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The CC should have died in the 4th war. I dislike the fact it remains, but this isn't because of the war, but real life politics.
PC external to the game not internal to the game – if you write a military book and cave in to the external mob then what does this say?
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the numbers of assaults in each regiment.
For IS forces – yes this was included
For Clan forces – this was completely ignored to the point it became obvious someone was tipping the scales in the Clans favour at the expense of all reality all the way form 3050 to 3150 and beyond.
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costs are a very big thing when run logically
Where were the Clans logistics? In reality given the number of ships brought with them they should have run out of consumables as well as food and water a long way back in the invasion. Replacement Sibko personnel! Again another point that was completely ignored.
There is no way the Clans could maintain their military numbers in a full on war within the IS – Loss Depletion Report should made that clear from the start – they just do not have a system in place that could have absorbed and replaced the numbers that should have been killed off during the invasion!
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budget gets eaten up quickly without purchasing new units.
Really? How is that theory working out in ANY country? In a perfect society that looks after its people maybe this would be true – and yet how many countries allocate a massive percentage of the budget straight to military before looking at what the people require – to new hospitals, schools and infrastructure etc?
Again, all societies within the game have been at war for how many centuries – thus how well ingrained should the military industrial complex be? The answer is very well ingrained and upon every world – from basic weapons all the way up to the most advanced weapon systems available depending upon population and technological development!
The idea that the entire universe lost all of its technology due to the massive number of wars is ludicrous – it is not a plausible scenario unless EVERY world was nuked back to the stone age, and as this never occurred the point is all the technology should be there on one world or another.
This is why I have given up on the Canon version of the game – this is why I am writing my own – I can only groan or laugh at the proposition when I read the Cannon version of events as there are just too many plot holes that make absolutely no sense whatsoever form a political, military or social level.
All I ask for is a little realism and yet all I get is a 1800’s Boys own adventure book story.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/25/21 07:27 PM
70.118.172.64
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The Clans pick an area that they WANT to fight in, that is different from picking an area you know you have an advantage and due note that even when you think you are ground you know so well, the enemy will still manage to surprise you and can still defeat you.
Requiem, you seem to be trying very hard to apply Sun Tzu to everything you want to counter here, nice, but it's not the right use of that. Each player is going to run the engagements differently. They will go right when you think that they will go left because that's what they did three battles ago or that how you read the terrain, meanwhile their forces are behind you and you are stuck trying to countermarch to prevent a rout.
I have enough computer games and micro-armor games that are set up for refighting everything from battles of Ancient Rome to WW2. And I can beat the computer and other players pretty regularly because I don't play them like they think I should be. I am not going to make similar mistakes, I will make new ones, or I will make a move that keeps things so in chaos, that the AI can't predict my next move. That is what is going to happen for your examples. The Clans lands do their own bidding, then they move out, meanwhile, the other side is not going to sit there. A buddy thought I would let him move to the fight and I attacked him as he moved on to the board. He cried, but got over it and pushed his forces into the fight, it was a good game and we both saw that we can spring tricks on each other.
Really? The idea of losing technology due to a massive war is crazy...odd how history has evidence of that happening. Tribes move through and wiped out the military forces and the folks left behind take decades or longer to recover.
So moving back on topic...vehicles as written, even with adding in better IC engines (aka true turbines (or as close as you can get in the game) and allowing them to use DHS and ENDO will not alter the game to the point that mechs lose their niche role and pride of place. IT does even the playing field in that they able to be used better, but until the Hit Location Table is revamped and the locations increased, mechs will always win out because they carry more firepower, can move through terrain that vehicles can't, not without having to switch to a different vehicle class, and then they can take more damage overall and far longer than vehicles can.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/21 02:56 AM
45.51.181.83
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Letting vehicles have the tech they should isn't going to stop the mechs from being kings. It will give them more of a challenge then most want to deal with. It is embarrassing to lost an atlas to a medium tank, since a lot of those that claim to be the best can't play tactics. It is brute strength.
The main thing with DHS is heat generation using energy weapons. It isn't like tanks can go up on the heat scale, nor do they survive one hit to their fusion engines. Endo is just using better materials for the frame. Just like mechs do. With the beating internals take from combat, I have suggested this might be a way to cut the weight of ICEs as well. 5 tons to hold a 100 ton mech together with it heating up and if it has jump jets, even more punishment.
So you pick an area and set up. There is NO rule saying the enemy has to enter the area the way you want. They could very well hot drop into the area, removing all chances to use the mines and sighted artillery points in the areas you think they have to move. The clans might have been slow to adapt, but they do adapt. And the entire argument falls apart when dealing with non clan forces. You want to defend that area? Fine. I will take the capital, factories, your supplies and anything else you refuse to defend because it isn't in your zone of defense. THEN I will see about taking you out. I could just siege you and starve you out. Every point of damage is something you can not replace, as I have a strangle hold on you. Yes, hidden supplies will keep you in the fight for a while, but without outside forces, you will slowly die.
Simple logic does not exist in the entire game. Even before the clans, you could not feasibly invade a lot of worlds. Their just isn't enough ships to invade another world of several billion without local support. Then garrison the hostile world and try to invade a second one. Just not possible. This is true with all scenarios in games that do so. The harsh tactics to keep a majority of them in line would be needed, and that will cause those you invade in the future to fight even harder. Die on your feet, verses living on your knee sentiment.
Simple merchandising says you have to appeal to a large crowd to survive. Caving in to outside pressure? Don't try to suggest how to make money as this suggests you would cut your nose off to spite the outside pressure. Realistically, the DC should have been reverse of the CC. There is far more people of Chinese decent then Japanese. But this also suggests that each state is solely from those countries. They aren't.
The numbers given in the books only represents a short time frame for troops. Every battle will have losses, and those numbers also include units that may well be broken down, waiting for repairs. The adventure packs are horrible for this. All units have some damage, yet if you play the scenarios the way they suggest, every combat has the mechs in the same condition for the most part. There is no fixing them between scenarios. I can understand not repairing some engine damage as you don't have the parts. But to be down armor? Yeah, that doesn't work.
I know in the U.S that the military builds things like schools and such with part of their budget. Training, replacing buildings along with building new ones and such eat into the budget. No matter what you think, countries pour money into their military and still never get what they want, or sometimes even need. You have a budget of say a billion dollars. That won't buy you certain military equipment, let alone keep what you got working. And for a lot of countries a billion dollars is more then what they have to spend on their military. So buying replacements for lost units may well have to wait a few years. It is why rifles and infantry are a big part of militaries. They are cheaper then buying a horde of jeeps.
And no. Spotter training is not cheap or standard in military units. And with that, it normally isn't infantry calling in shots with IDF in the game. It is normally other mech warriors or maybe vehicles. And even that is off, since the invention of TAG and NARCs are easier to relay information then someone calling it out. Even C3s are easier to use. This is just a cheaper version of saying all infantry should be trained in anti mech tactics.
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Karagin
05/26/21 10:16 AM
70.118.172.64
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Ghostrider, a medium tank won't drop an Atlas even with the DHS and Endo. The mech will kill the vehicle faster than it can kill the Atlas. Again unless the Damage Hit Table for vehicles is revamped and adjusted to stop the secondary effects from happening everything a side facing is hit as well as the number of facings is increased like giving the turret four facings, then the medium tank won't make it long to dropping an Atlas unless it rolls a 12 and has a weapon that cores the head.
You are correct about the budget for the military, the money goes to everything from weapons to bullets to beans to buildings, etc...it's all going to be spent to get them what they need, not what they want. One thing that the whole damn Jihad crap showed is that at the time, TPTB had no real clue about logistics and how a military would truly work. I posted pages about it and if you want to wade through the hostile comments from all sides to read about it feel free, the point is an army can't remain hidden and there will always be trails of paper that show things. Reality says that mech forces would be there but at their cost, they would be super rare and only certain worlds would have them. Now, this is a game and the fun is bashing the mechs against each other.
Infantry is cheap and will be used by all, regardless of their wonderful toys, mainly because it's cheap, even with the cost of feeding it, housing it, etc...
On spotting, we are all taught to call for fire, aka calling in indirect, the issue is for most in the military it's a one-day class to give you the basic understanding and you never use it again. And until Iraq happened that was indeed the case. Once we saw that Iraq was not going to be the warfighting that we had trained for things changed. Calling for Fire Support was adjusted, more training, and while that was good, again not everyone needed to use that skill and didn't.
Anyone with a radio and an understanding of how calling in fire support can be a spotter, the running joke, or in some cases the ideal, was One over, One under, One on Target. Things like TAG and C3 systems and the Probes do help and in some cases make it easier than waiting for PVT Snuffy to get over being scared shitless and calling in the information.
If you want to know more look up Call For Fire and you can see how the US military does it. IT's not a state secrete so it's on the Goggle and the Duck.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/21 11:47 AM
45.51.181.83
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Calling in artillery fire isn't the same as calling in a missile strike from a friendly unit. In 10 seconds, you have to know where you are at, where the target is, figure out coords and hope the friendly unit can figure out where to fire. If this was simple, then the game would have better chances of hitting things with their own sights. And with the LRM IDF, you don't have LOS for long most of the time. Also, Radar would be effective as well for 'spotting'. But then I can see real life not being part of the game.
But I was wrong about the military training spotting in real life. Do the vehicle drivers as well as pilots get the same training? For some reason, i get the feeling it is part of boot camp.
Also, how much of the artillery fire is directed against moving targets? I know they are used as bunker busters, but the mobile combat is the question here.
The main reason why I know part of the military budget goes to building non military things is the issues with the border wall here in the U.S. The transfer of money caused more then a few projects to have to be shelved, as the funds earmarked for them were diverted. It shocked me to hear that the military was the ones that helped fund those projects.
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Karagin
05/26/21 01:03 PM
70.118.172.64
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Six elements of a call for fire
Observer identification.
Warning order.
Target location.
Target description.
Method of engagement.
Method of fire and control.
That is what is needed, then comes the radio call, then you can adjust things if the munitions are Laser guide or if you are doing ranging fire. It doesn't take that long to call it in and yes you can spot it quickly with simple commands. So a crew or Mechwarrior can do without losing their ability to keep fighting.
Everyone is trained, the skill is not used by all of the militaries, a soldier sitting in the finance office isn't normally going to be need to use the skill and they will be rusty as hell if they have to, but we also have cards with the steps on them. Combat and Combat Support units do train in this. In my last unit, before retirement, we did drills every Thursday and Friday. Also, the Battalion would have exercise set up where oh crap the command element is taken out so SSG Snuffy is in charge, guess what he's now doing the stuff the higher-ups would have handled. Crossing training is going to happen.
For example, I am an 88M30, a transporter, which means if it has wheels I can drive and operator it, but that also means I am crossed trained other platforms like tracked vehicles, doesn't mean I am going to be an expert but I can move it out of danger. Battletech makes these wild-**** assumptions that Mechwarriors can pilot battlearmor and other things and while that is true, they won't be doing so effectively or at the same level as the crews or pilots/drivers of those platforms.
As for the budget money going to the border, first no real-world politics, second the military has extra money, if there are short falls the MIC (MIlitary Industrial Complex) is over charging for items and work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/26/21 05:24 PM
1.158.176.232
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The Clans pick an area that they WANT to fight in
Really?
Please do elucidate me – when and were did any Clansman ever sit back and wait for the enemy to come to them without rushing in?
All it takes if for the IS to do nothing on a ground favourable to them and the Clan forces will come to them!
They are after all ‘genetically bread super people’ and that fact comes with it the hinderance of having to prove this 24 / 7 and to everyone – even their own people – this comes pre-engrained from the womb to death!
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… can beat the computer ….
Ever wonder what it would be like to go up against some-one like Hanse Davion / Theodore Kurita / Takashi Kurita? They were all alive during the initial Clan Invasion and yet the response provided by their military was pitiful even when the Clains were explained to them by the Wolfs Dragoons.
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the idea of loosing technology
How many universities are their on any civilized world? - how many corporation have their own education and training departments? – and how many corporations today have multiple information backup storage sites to ensure the safety of their information? - how many militaries have online or courses with ALL the information contained within a manual? – and how wide spread is all this information?
The only way all the information is purged is if EVERY world and EVERY University and EVERY Corporation and EVERY Military on EVERY world has had their information destroyed.
And how many worlds were never touched – how many University Libraries on these worlds were never destroyed?
The plausibility of an Inner Sphere purge of Information is impossible – since many of the succession wars never touched certain worlds whose Libraries are quite intact!
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letting vehicles have the tech they should isn’t going to stop the mechs from being kings
Problem is one WW2 bomber can carry how much gravity bombs? And be at an altitude how far removed from the Clan weapons and how many Artillery platforms should be available to any IS military RCT etc ?
And how many IS units have available to conventional fighters that are an equal for aerospace fighters on the deck?
The Clans do not have aerospace numbers to obtain air superiority and if they don’t they can be bombed back into the stone-age – this is why a fully functional military that has access to more weapons systems than just utilizing only Elementals, Mechs and fighters is a dumb idea - unless the clans have access to a RCTs the game looses the plot somewhat!
As for elementals – did someone realise that if you breed them that big and put them in a huge armour you loose all hunting ability that any infantryman / hunter comes to possess.
Plus one Infantryman with one 50 cal or above sniper rifle should he able to get a single head shot.
Also if a squad is equipped with support class weapon or even a SRM with inferno rounds – one each per squad member how long should an elemental last?
And how many times have we seen where a lower-level tech soldier out wit a more advanced because they know how to use the land to engage and destroy the enemy.
Relying on technology dulls the senses!
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simple logic does not exist in the game
Then kill off all warships, vehicles and fighters etc and only allow Mechs, Elementals and Aerospace fighters …
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There is No rule saying the enemy has to enter the area the way you want
How much patience has the average clansman to sitting outside an OZ because they do not like the ground they have to fight on?
The average Clansman has how much hubris when it comes to war with the IS?
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There is far more people of Chinese decent then Japanese.
Problem is every state is massively culturally and ethnically diverse.
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There is no fixing them between scenarios. I can understand not repairing some engine damage as you don't have the parts. But to be down armour? Yeah, that doesn't work.
Problem is this should also apply to replacement personnel from Clan Sibkos – if you don’t have the replacement personnel - Yeah, that doesn't work.
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the issue is for most in the military it's a one-day class to give you the basic understanding and you never use it again
Problem is every IS state has been at war with their neighbour for how long? And how important is it for every military to be able to call in artillery support … just like it was discovered in Iraq?
Thus how important would it be to keep this training up to date for your average infantryman even those who drive the vehicles should be able to call in a strike due to necessity of the ongoing wars?
Sorry but again I stand by my assumptions
If a world has a high population and with a high technology rating then it stands to reason that that world should have a massive standing army which utilizes a massive infantry / armour / VTOL / fighters / bombers etc and that has a massive number of bunkers etc for hidden warfare due to the nature of the ongoing succession wars.
To believe otherwise is venturing into the implausibility once again.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/26/21 05:27 PM)
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Karagin
05/26/21 05:51 PM
70.118.172.64
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It was fun Requiem. You can't seem to understand that none of us interested in your version of how the game should be done or played. Your POVs all seem to one of you are right and the rest of us don't have a clue. So on that note, I am bowing out conversing with you in the future.
You are here telling me, the guy who has 30 years of military service, who did the stuff daily, that I am talking out my rear end with your comments as you question things just because you think you know more or think you have the better understanding. I will be sure to let my fellow NCOs know that a guy online is and has far more in-depth knowledge and tuned to how a military is going to be trained given that the basics won't regardless of the decade or century.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/21 06:40 PM
45.51.181.83
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There are a few times where the defending clan did indeed sit back and let the enemy come to them. Poor bidding starts it, while some commanders are just out to kill the enemy, no matter if there is any sort of batchall that is comparable or not. I doubt the Wolverines ran out to engage the enemy, as they were buying time to get their people out. They would have done everything to slow down the enemy, which means bunkering down in good defensive positions. Some areas would require a full out counter attack. But you want something more canon, like Twycross when the IS attacked the world. The enemy was pulling back, trying to reform their lines. If not for the pass and the Falcon Guard, they would have been purely defensive, trying to preserve all they could.
Real world time. How many corporations have their tech kept in public places? How many actually have it in multiple locations, especially extremely secret information that the enemy can take or destroy while being moved? KFC is a good example of this. The recipe was kept in one location to make sure others couldn't get ahold of it. Had the site been nuked, like in the 1st SW, then it would be gone. Period. It was only when the 3rd SW was going did the IS stop just destroying everything they could. And this is not even adding in Comstar doing what it could to keep tech out of the hands of the houses. And that is a bit of the problem. Terra DID have a lot of the tech, but would not allow it outside of the order. So having every last trace of it go missing is a chunk of it, but having a powerful communications facility blocking as much of it as they could helps the idea of losing in entirely.
Regeneration should have been in every hospital in the IS once it was researched. It wasn't. Simply putting things into storage, and having someone move it, elements destroying it like flooding, and even viruses being unleashed erasing data in anything that it reached all help to remove the tech.
Use the Roman technique for concrete as a guide. With all the tech today, they still can't match the concrete the Romans used as seawalls and such.
Still not getting the clue? The game has more issues in the past that isn't fixed, there is no reason to think the current and future states can be fixed without dealing with the basis. Spackle on a wall doesn't change the fact that the boards inside are broken. Quicksand base comes to mind. NOTHING can be done right without fixing it from the base up.
The existence of mechs is illogical. The room temperature fusion reactor is illogical at this time. The same engine being put in a vehicle, and has only 1 level of shielding, yet put into a mech has 3? Current day tech as surpassed the games, as a lot of it removes the ability to rely on mechs as the king of the battlefield. Drones with bombs can wipe out mechs, and not cost nearly as much as the mechs do. Part of why they are kept out of the game. The SDS is a fine example of this with drop ships and war ships. Part of the issue with modern missiles verses BT. The 2 mile range of a sidewinder, which would rip apart most aerofighters shows logic is missing, and can't be reinstalled. Only Naval weapons reach a mile or more. Funny that sensors as set up so they aren't reliable at that distance.
How many infantry learn to use mortars and never touch it in combat? When you get a call from someone that isn't your spotter to fire on a position, you tend to have to get the authorization to listen to that person. How do you know it is not an enemy with your codes? Do normal infantry have your frequency to even try? The more sophisticated things get in the military, the more convoluted it gets. You don't get to bypass the chain of command just because you want it. Given the games implications that artillery isn't as common as you would like, what makes you think everyone under the sun has a howitzer under their pillows? Ammo would be even more of an issue.
The IS used total war tactics in the first two wars. And that set up the IS for the state it was in. The discovery of the Helm Core helped reverse that, but that still does not mean everyone has everything they need. Putting out 1000 mechs a year doesn't cover the losses from all the raids and such that happen in that year. Even a quiet year, you would have enemies doing their strikes. Resources going towards mech production means the supplies are being funned AWAY from other sources. The IS was not the place of plenty.
The clans having unlimited money is the fact that the military says what goes. Civilians get the left overs. So their way of getting equipment don't exist in any other situation but theirs.
And again. The clans not having the numbers to guard a hostile world is nothing new. The formation of the DC could never have worked, as trying to take worlds and hold onto hostile ones would not have the manpower nor the equipment to move what is needed. So again, complaining about the clans and not entire history of the game shows a bias of wanting to be right.
And no. I don't think I am right on everything. I keep finding more issues I missed or something that was overlooked when I first came to some conclusions.
Solid rules that make sense first, then you can redo things to make it all fit.
The problem here is they had the middle to end being done, without having the beginning even thought out. And retcons don't do it.
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Cray
05/26/21 09:07 PM
71.47.151.234
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Quote:
Real world time. How many corporations have their tech kept in public places? How many actually have it in multiple locations, especially extremely secret information that the enemy can take or destroy while being moved?
Speaking as someone who works in aerospace, while we keep digital backups of even personal computers off-site and hence are technically safe from hurricanes, tornadoes, and building fires, a lot of critical information only exists in the heads of personnel. I've worked on several programs that take gut punches with each retirement.
And as new kids are hired, I find myself trying to impart lessons that aren't in our blueprints, aren't in our process specs, aren't in our work instructions, and aren't in suppliers' technical data sheets. Some vital knowledge is only in employees' heads.
If you nuked my location and wiped out the work force then the rest of the corporation could not resume production of my site's products despite having every necessary computer file and blueprint. At best, it'd be a 3 or 4-year effort to rebuild the supply chain and requalify production, getting an entirely new work force to figure out how to build these complicated systems.
This might make you wonder about how the Inner Sphere beat itself up so badly and lost so much technology when it only needs a few years to recover, but the Inner Sphere didn't stop the nukes after hitting one factory. All the factories of my employer would be primary targets in a strategic war to nuke away the war-making industrial capacity of a nation. Many of our suppliers (like the folks who build jet engines and avionics) would also have "Nuke Me" targets painted on their roofs. The avionics' suppliers like Intel and AMD and Texas Instruments would have "Nuke Me" targets painted on their microchip fabs. The jet engines' superalloy metal suppliers (only a handful in the world, easy targets!) would have "Nuke Me" targets painted on them. Our aerospace competitors would also have lots of "Nuke Me" targets painted on them.
Like ze Germans and their ball bearing plants in WW2, there are choke points of specialized, irreplaceable knowledge in the industrial supply chain that are relatively easy to target and have wide ranging effects.
The Inner Sphere prior to the Succession Wars was dominated by the Terran Hegemony, a methodical empire that was very deliberate in its efforts to learn from the Terran Alliance's mistakes. It concentrated the Inner Sphere's advanced military industry on Hegemony worlds, sparingly allowed the Houses to have a little bit of that technology, and worked hard to guarantee that the Houses couldn't fight squat without Hegemony-made equipment. Terraforming gear, water filters, and other vital systems were all built on Hegemony worlds. The supply chains for the best and shiniest equipment were concentrated in the Hegemony.
The First and Second Succession War focused on seizing those Hegemony planets and nuked them off the map when one House or another couldn't hold them. You lost all the specialist workers, factories, and their suppliers, and the survivors that settled into one House's hands after three generations of total war weren't the ones who knew how to run the factories-turned-nuclear craters.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
05/26/21 09:41 PM
70.118.172.64
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Spreading things out is great! But here is the next question, does the cost of having transport items A and B from two different worlds to world C so then that semi-finished product can move to worlds D thru J before you have the final finished product make it worth spreading everything out?
I can understand having two or three plants on three or so worlds making similar items, but I don't buy into the massive cost for a company of them having it spread all over the House's interstellar holdings either.
Real-world, in Europe you have regions like the Saar-Rhineland, TONS of factories, and other industrial companies. In England you have the Liverpool-Birmingham area, in the US you have the Detroit to Pittsburg Corridor of industry. Russia has their version etc...and as you said, Cray, the Terran's followed a similar pattern for the most part. So I don't see the Houses doing any different.
Personally, I think BT underestimates how settled and industrialized planetary systems truly would be and how much traffic that would be jumping in and out on daily basis. Think about it, you have a major weapons manufacturer as well as one making mechs in the same planetary system, the amount of support for those as well other commercial industrial setups and secondary support would be huge. The number of orbital and moon-based setups would be very high. Then the mining of the local asteroid belt alone would be an enormous presence of dropship and shuttlecraft flying around. Then the normal commercial traffic of ships bring both consumer and luxury goods, not to mention the ships bring in the needed industrial components to build the weapons and mechs, that would mean far more than we seem to be getting in the BT universe and the descriptions of the worlds and such.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
05/27/21 12:23 AM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
I do admit the updated information in the wiki does support the helm being useful for more then just balance, but it also says physical actions needed to do things in conjunction with it.
Reading a bit more after the neurohelmet question, you might need to reread how the mechs work. They do require levels and such to move the unit as well as fire. Even the fiction says things like torso twisting means turning the control sticks and such. The helm is not a control all of the mech.
I didn't say control of all, I said control of most of the finer actions, and in particular the arms. While there are paddles for leg movement and a joystick for torso twist, the canon descriptions and artwork of the cockpits provide no manipulators for arms. The neurohelmet apparently controls arm movement, including the rough aiming of weapons attached to arms (with the TTS correcting for accurate shots.)
Quote:
Also, this seems to forget they do have dual cockpits that allow two people to work a mech...
This isn't how dual cockpits work. One pilot is in control of the mech, and the other is a passenger who has access to some mech systems like the communication system, sensors, and company/battalion/regiment control systems. The passenger's piloting and gunnery skills have zero impact on performance. They are effectively a battalion or regimental commander, not a second pilot. I'm doubtful they can even take over the mech if the primary pilot is KO'd or killed (except maybe by swapping seats to sit in the pilot's chair.)
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The 5/4 mechwarrior isn't straight out of training. It is the skills that TPTB decided would be best to allow a play to actually do some killing rather then missing so much and dying. There is no fun in constantly dying as you couldn't hit the barn sitting next to you with a mech with 20 mgs. Tanks were originally meant to die to mechs, so they weren't damaged so badly when they did fight other mechs. The hero of the stories is the mech pilot. It doesn't help having the hero on death's door just after stepping out of their own home.
You're making my point. If tanks are supposed to die easily and be no match for mechs, then giving them skills such that they are competitive to mechs defeats that purpose. Sure, tanks die on critical hits all the time, but a a long range tank can take out a short ranged mech too easily if the skills are too close. The tanks are supposed to miss frequently - and they make up for it in raw numbers. The 5/4 skills is a cop out to give one tank the ability to defeat one mech. Or at least two or three tanks to defeat one mech.
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Tanks are the main forces that are dealing with far more then mechs. Infantry being even more commonly used. Mechs are the 'elite' of the game, and gain all the credit for everything. The game is slanted that way. The main garrisons and even assault units are tanks and infantry. Mechs are used for the do or die parts of any assault/defense.
I can't tell if you're disagreeing or agreeing with me. Being most common doesn't mean most used. I never said tanks weren't more common. I did say mechs were most used in battle scenarios, which is true.
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... did you recall that terrain stops vehicles? Like most can't even enter light woods and god forbid there is a stream since you need special equipment for the vehicles to cross that.
But this is bad use of vehicles. Mechs are meant to be the offensive spearhead, and would cross the river first, securing a beachhead on the opposite shore before tanks cross at bridges (or bridgelayer units). If on defense, the tanks should use that stream to their advantage to slow down advancing mechs and make for easier shots. Vehicles can't do all the things mechs can do, but they also shouldn't be asked to do all the things mechs can do.
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The idea of Wick's that tank crews are somehow undertrained or just not well trained is a wrong one to draw. No military is going to let their armor units be a total mess. Even the most third-world country will train their forces as best they can and they will have units that can perform on or close to the next nation's best. To say that the militia on WBFE is not well trained just because they don't have mechs is a sure-fire way of getting your munchkin player unit will all that cool high-tech Post-Jihad wonder weapons rear ends handed to them.
But then why wouldn't they do the same with mechwarriors? You're missing the point that if a well trained tank crew can get up to 5/4 skillset, why can't a well trained mechwarrior, with the inherent advantages of a mech, get up to 4/3 or better? Your answer seems to be that the mechwarriors aren't as good as the tankers, but the technology makes up for their deficit such that the end result is an even skillset. I'm not the one saying one of the two is less well trained than the other - that's actually the point you're making. I'm saying that if both are well-trained, the mechwarrior has the advantage because of technology. The neurohelmet allows him to react faster and aim more quickly and thus should have lower piloting and gunnery skill numbers. The only way to say that both should be the same level is to claim one of two things: that the mechwarriors are not trained as well as tank crews, or that the technology is actually a hindrance. If neurohelmets were a hindrance, or of no benefit, they wouldn't be used, so you're left defending the position that mechwarriors aren't trained as well. But that would put the military as not doing their job to fully train their forces to the best of their abilities, which is exactly what you're complaining about, so you've effectively argued against your own position. (And for some reason, blamed me for it.)
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Basically, the mech, the way it is set up, can't be king if ANYTHING is not nerfed to the abyss to prevent a fair shot.
YES. That's why the 5/4 skill rating for tanks in Master Rules sucked. Tanks die easily, but such a skill rating gave them the ability to take out mechs too easily (especially at longer ranges). If tanks outnumber mechs a good 4-to-1 or better, there's no way planetary assaults would be successful, at least not without losing so many mechs that attrition would have made them virtually extinct during the Succession Wars. The entire fiction relies on each mech in an assault force being able to take out a several (half dozen perhaps?) tanks, as well as a few companies of infantry (or cow them into surrendering). If its unbalanced to the point that two or three tanks can routinely beat a mech, then the fiction is no longer believable. Ergo, the tanks should have skill ratings at least a point, if not two, below their mech counterparts. This is not meant as disrespect to the tank crews or an indication of unequal training, its meant as the shock and awe of what is supposed to be the overwhelmingly superior Battlemech.
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First, Clan way of fighting dictates they will attack the defending force wherever they are, thus the defending force can prearrange a good defensive position.
It is however considered dezgra to use terrain and static defenses to your advantage. There is no honor in things like minefields. The defender can of course choose a terrain that maximizes his units potential, but, at least in Clan vs Clan engagements, he must accept the attacker's bid to counteract such an advantage. If defender has a lot of jumping, short range units and they choose a forest, then its perfectly acceptable for the attacker to bid units with indirect fire, flamers to burn down the forest, etc. If the defender chooses a position that can not be successfully taken through normal combat, then the defender is dezgra and that's when you might see the attacker call in artillery, airstrikes, or orbital bombardment to dislodge the defender. Bidding is sort of dance where both sides want to maximize their unit's capabilities, minimize their losses, but also give the appearance to the other side that they can win without having to resort to dishonorable tactics. When the Clans resort to dishonorable methods, it is usually because they feel the opponent did not bid fairly. Sun Tzu doesn't care about honor - he cared about winning, and that means minefields, overwhelming numbers, chokepoints, etc - stuff the Clans consider disgraceful. When the IS uses these, the Clans are more brutal, unforgiving, and less interested in fair fights than they are with each other. It reinforces their belief that they are morally superior to their IS counterparts, and when they go on to defeat the IS despite those tactics, it only further fuels that belief. In truth, most of the planets hit during the Clan invasion just didn't have the means to defend themselves against such a powerful aggressor with advanced technology. Whatever they had to defend with, the Clans had enough firepower to overcome it. Only in a few places (like Wolcott) did the terrain play a significant factor in defense. Ultimately, the IS defenders could not simply hole up in canyons and mine the hell out of the entrance expecting the Clans to simply keep coming at them and die in the minefield - the Clans would instead simply blast them from orbit. If there were no way to win the battle with honor, then I'm certain the Clans would have resorted to such tactics.
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ghostrider
05/27/21 01:30 AM
45.51.181.83
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There is a good reason why some things would be spread out. Mainly comes down to where the deposits of resources needed to make the main items. For some, it is a patchwork of buying up the companies that use it. The Germanium used in jump ships being a prime example. Building Galax ship yards where the main source of it for that area is a good idea. But the parts, like the jump computers, may well be built in a system 3 jumps away. Moving it may destroy the economy there, as well as being stuck there do to the local nobles making sure it doesn't leave. I don't see a company having the blueprints for the jump core at the corporate office the deals with making the computer chips.
The joysticks that can cause the torso twist also controls the arms for firing. The Gray Death Legion books show that often enough. Even the adventure packs, as the joysticks can be rotated in order to rotate the torso accordingly.
There are also stories of the two seater battlemaster that has one person pilot while the other fires. The Red Corsair from the Falcons had that very issue shown in it. The issue in the clans is that the warriors are so arrogant, they could not work together. In a tank, it is very possible that only one person drives and shoots. The hunter would be a good example as the tank needs to face the target as it lacks a turret.
The statement that tanks are supposed to miss frequently explains the thought I was trying to get across. TPTB didn't want tanks to be anything more then a nuisance. Which is crap. Nerfing them by saying they could not use this or that tech is garbage. They could have stopped all this crap by one simple thing. Saying no fusion engine could reside in a vehicle. But the reason for the shielding was bs, and it did nothing to protect the engine or the crew. No radiation from the engine. And as said before, they take fusion engines from vehicles and they work fine in mechs. Not sure if it is just brackets to hold the engines, so there is a bit of wiggle room here.
As stated a 4 gunnery skill is the same thing no matter if it is in a mech, vehicle, aerofighter, dropship, warship, elementals suit or even normal infantry.
The game suggests a lot of mech pilots get bare minimum training with some being tossed out before they go far. A lot of the stories has someone just barely into training being better shots then those with years of experience. 5/4 mech pilots are more common then they should. A lot of green troops are out there, which doesn't fit this skill set.
Tank crews can be extremely skilled, but that is more of an exception then a mech pilot. Average tank crews should be more skilled then the game suggests.
In the example of most common is most used. Tanks are used to prevent the enemy from taking things that are needed, but the more valuable mechs are held in reserve. Without tanks performing well, there would be no mechs that weren't in guard duty that could be used to attack anyone. The game does not focus on that, as stompy mechs are the fun of it. That does not change the fact that vehicles are the main backbone of the armies for things infantry can't handle. You don't see a lance of mechs holding a mining area from the enemy. It is vehicles and infantry. Not enough mechs do even attempt it. The mechs are brought in to 'save' the day.
I believe the example of a river was meant to show the limits of vehicles verse mechs. They are nerfed in the fact they lack the mobility of mechs for things like this. The big thing always comes down to what type of vehicles you have. Rivers can be crossed by hover craft, but the question is do you have them there when needed? Are the banks set up to allow them to go over the water and onto the far side? Flyers are self explanatory. This is something that gives the mechs the mobility over vehicles. Not just being able to stomp on a unit. Not just run into a forest. This is a big part of why mechs are kings.
Not sure where it is said that mech pilots can't be well skilled. I said that tank crews should have a higher skill starting out then a mech warrior. Easier to train and skill in. Mechs will be better in the long run, as they don't die as often. And this also means that tank crews may well be split up to fill spots in other units, lowering the over all skill level. You are not going to keep a simple APC crew together if your Demolisher needs a crew. The commander may well be someone that doesn't know anything about the tank, or maybe a crew member was killed. Barracks being hit is a good way to disrupt the crews of units. Some being asleep, while others visiting their family when an attack comes. So it isn't all crew die at once. Even having them chased down to be killed is another scenario. One the game doesn't really go into, but we do see mech warriors being chased down and killed.
Now with the statement of the mechwarrior has the advantage because of technology. The neurohelmet allows him to react faster and aim more quickly and thus should have lower piloting and gunnery skill numbers. This would mean the pilot has less skill, as the tech gives him an advantage. This also suggests tank crews are more skilled as they need the same numbers to hit a target.
And again, the helm is there to help keep the mech upright. It has a very MAJOR purpose in that. Mechs can be piloted without the helm, but have a hard time staying up. Saying they are worthless if they don't help with gunnery is the issue.
If tanks outnumber mechs a good 4-to-1 or better, there's no way planetary assaults would be successful, at least not without losing so many mechs that attrition would have made them virtually extinct during the Succession Wars.
That statement shows why the idea that only mechs are used in attack. Vehicles are brought in for planetary assaults to try and counter some of the number advantages.
And now an issue that someone else seems to forget. Having 20 regiments on a world, does NOT mean they are all in one place. They are normally spread out to guard areas and important sites. Almost every major planetary assault says there are vehicles brought in to help with the assaults. Mechs are the main focus of combat. But that does not mean they are the ONLY units in combat. Fighter strikes are important to wear down enemy strongpoints. Mechs are the easiest to land and get out, as pilots can walk them into their cradles, while vehicles have to be strapped down after being moved into position. It takes more time to secure the vehicles. As most vehicle dropships are aerodynes, they tend to take off like a normal plane. This makes it absolutely necessary to have them strapped down, while a union, or overlord can take off while the mechs are being strapped down.
Using terrain to your advantage is not dezgra thinking. Clan warriors are tacticians. That means using terrain, especially if you are on the weaker side. Mines and such I will agree would be dezgra tactics.
There is an issue with the bidding concept that needs to be addressed. Depending on the unit commander, the bidding includes fighters and such. If not for the invasion, clans would not have bid away warships in combats.
I would think the galaxy commander or khans would negate a bid if the enemy did hole up in a canyon and mine the hell out of it before resorting to the bombardment. The honor loss for doing so would weigh heavily against such tactics. Increasing the bid is more likely, as mech combat is more desired. They might even send in the PGCs to deal with it to avoid the honor loss.
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Requiem
05/27/21 06:01 AM
1.158.223.134
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KFC
Problem is that they are a franchise and if they exist in Battletech world then the chicken recipe will be required on every world for logistical reasons. Thus in order to obliterate the recipe you will need to kill off every franchisee and every manufacturing plant on every world – this is the point – to kill off all knowledge you need to kill it off on every world – if even one world retains the knowledge then it can be easily duplicated and disseminated.
Regeneration
How many hospitals have internal schools etc to assist with personal development?
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NOTHING can be done right without fixing it from the base up.
What is the age of Battletech now?
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have to get the authorization to listen to that person
SOP – wouldn’t there be set directions (policies and procedures) for just this type of eventuality as it is not beyond the realm of possibility?
Cray – after working in a massive corporation for many years can I suggest you have a word with Human Resource Management.
This type of scenario should not occur – I had a standing document on my file stating what I an working on and where I am up to just in case I was hit by a bus. Also we have a standing process in order to retain implicit knowledge – This requires long term planning and preparation – smart organisations have plans in place encourage knowledge transfer prior to an employee leaving.
Suggest discussing with HR a process whereby you can develop a knowledge transfer strategy ie create an internal knowledge database – an internal internal-pedia whereby any new members can study the information during the onboarding process or a utilized in conjunction with a mentoring process to assist with knowledge transfer.
Loosing information due to retirement should not occur in this day and age – HR would have a conniption if they thought this would occur with us – as information is worth its weight in gold in order to maintain a competitive advantage of the competition!
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Semi finished products
Depends on the industry and the product – large corporation logistical chains in a globalization market require attention to detail when determining viability. Suggest a course in International Business would assist.
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I don't buy into the massive cost for a company of them having it spread all over the House's interstellar holdings either.
Problem – Logistics transport – How many tons can the largest dropship carry and how many of those are in existence. Yest it would make like sense if you have a vast cargo fleet that can transport a vast amount of tunnage between worlds. However, given this is the Battletech universe – I would believe, long term, it would be more cost effective to build a plant on all worlds than to ship it between worlds. Also having a viable Military Industrial Complex on every world would assist with planetary / Realm security – it would be harder to invade!
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It is however considered dezgra to use terrain and static defenses to your advantage.
Except if you are an Inner sphere force and then it is just SOP.
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They might even send in the PGCs to deal with it to avoid the honour loss.
And now we are right back at the discussion of Spartacus – demanding freedom.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/27/21 12:51 PM
45.51.181.83
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KFC had all their stores buying the premixed batter from one location. It is possible that a company would have all the parts made in one location and ship them out to be assembled elsewhere. Pretty much what a lot of Asian car companies do to avoid tariffs in the U.S. The assemble the vehicle here, not make the parts.
Having a plan on where employees are at all times doesn't negate the fact that having worlds nuked to the abyss will stop the data loss. Even having them on multiple worlds may not stop it.
This is not saying that the only copies are there, but many times backups are forgotten in hidden areas, hence the concept of finding the hidden caches, like Helm. It states that it was the largest intact cache found, but not the only one. Secrets like how to make a certain chip tends to be kept secret, and having them stashed away on other worlds does not mean someone from the company didn't move them, and not tell anyone.
It is obvious that you haven't really worked much with computers and programming them. You can tell someone how to run things, yet the system will have back doors, and most of the time, even the main programmer doesn't know about them. A few lines of code is alls it takes. When dealing with millions of lines, it is very easy to miss something, especially if they are an outside source. And NO. They are not scrutinized like they should be. If you have time to try and figure out the coding, then you don't need to have someone else do it.
Well let's see. When the main tech was done, the SL was not set up for a major war. Dropships and jumpships were abundant, and the company may well have had everything on one world, maybe even one city. When the firestorm did come, they could not rebuild, so had to move production to where standing buildings were at. Tech was sure to be stolen by even their own nations, such as competitors and those of groups that wanted to gain the information for themselves. Also, the concept of tax breaks would come into the mix and companies would be offered incentives to build something on this world or that one. The economy is not set up for even the nation in question. Most businesses were out for themselves to make money. With border factories, you would want to ship in the stuff, as the world could be invaded and you did not want the enemy to get it.
Your comment:
It is however considered dezgra to use terrain and static defenses to your advantage.
Your response"
Except if you are an Inner sphere force and then it is just SOP.
The IS was not set up for having honor rules. Not sure why this was even an issue. The clans will use terrain to their advantage, as that is part of TACTICS. Unless you think they do the old stand in a line and fire on each other routine. They did seem to look down on some things, but did not say it was dezgra. Ambushes did happen, and that requires terrain and such.
The clans are military. There is no such thing as revolt without severe punishment. For most PGC personnel, being able to pilot a mech is all there is. They want to die with glory, so charging even a dezgra enemy was something to look forward too. Even Freeborn pilots were brainwashed into this belief. NOW, not all were like this, but those that disregarded orders were punished, with death being a normal end result. Commanding officers tended to be great warriors, so a trial of grievance would be done if the commander didn't think it would dishonor them for fighting a dezgra warrior. For somone that pushed Kurita honor, you seem to fail to understand it here.
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Requiem
05/27/21 06:27 PM
1.158.223.134
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KFC had all their stores buying the premixed batter from one location.
Food is perishable by nature – and considering the vastness of space and the time it takes to transport via jumpship
Problem is Every-world throughout the entire Inner Sphere would have a single library to multiple large libraries used for either Universities or Research and development.
Again if even one site remains in tact all information can be quickly and easily disseminated!
How many capitol worlds were nuked back into the stone age – for wouldn’t they have the prestigious Universities for their realm – thus the most comprehensive libraries – so doesn’t it stand that if they were never obliterated then then the information should still be intact.
Case in point – Tharkad – “Being an interior world, Tharkad was spared the ravages of the Age of War and the Succession Wars”
So how does a capitol world that was never attacked suddenly loose all of its understanding of technology when all of libraries from the Star League era are still intact? And how many books are on paper not electronic?
Also Tharkad was home to the 8th Fleet SLDF which maintained a massive space port (space station) – where is it if no one ever attacked the Tharkad system?
Sorry but again the hypothesis that ALL information up to a certain level can be eradicated from thousands of worlds does NOT hold water ….
Considering the level of data security that is used currently why would it be reduced to an almost ineffectual status far into the future?
As for Clan Warriors – on the whole how patient are they when it comes to war and battle when they are engaging some-one they believe is inferior to them?
Revolt
Human nature – kick a person down over and over and how long until they fight back? – Spartacus Lives! – when a closed society meets an open society what happens when confronted by freedom ….
Kurita Honour – The Honour of Samurai is vastly different to that of the Clans ….
As for Clan Commanding officers … all they had to be was great pilots when killing others – this DOES NOT make them great generals and tacticians at the same time. They are not mutually inclusive! They are also not great at understanding people, … in failing to understand people and culture how many wars have been fought for the right for self determination? A point that is clearly lacking partisan fighting and loss of warriors with no replacement numbers (Sibko) there is a clear discrepancy between replacements and that of the loss depletion report …. Sorry but again I stand by my assertion given the numbers that invaded there is no way they could have survived for an extended period of time – they would have been kicked out of the Inner Sphere and only until the Clans have a major reformation as to how their warrior system operates the inner sphere numbers would sooner or later have overwhelmed them by sheer numbers alone.
That is unless someone extremely ruthless decided to kill of every Clan home world which is not that beyond the realm of possibility – one dropship at full speed rammed into a planet that is just one massive killer nuke – as per the rules once activated it cannot be stopped! And how many worlds do the Clan have?
So once the exodus road is known – how many would vote for such an action – just asl Le May as to his action in Japan.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/27/21 10:31 PM
45.51.181.83
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Might need to look at just how long food really lasts today. Freezing items allows them to last far longer then leaving them on the counter. The entire IS has a lot of food shipped, as this is part of how things like Defiance can maintain their population as they state directly that the food grown locally can NOT feed the planets population. We are not talking non perishable foods either. This is things like milk, fresh fruit and such.
Universities and libraries would not have protected information in their files. How to refine uranium into bomb making materials is not sitting in them so anyone can just check out the books. Fusion plants would NOT be there for anyone to read up on how to make them. Fusion bombs comes from that sort of thing. The old flamers would be a good example of another weapon.
Might need to read the history of the IS. Tharkad was hit a few times. Not the full nuke strikes, but they did suffer damage. And not all attacks need to be bombs. Simple raids with viruses that wipe out information as well as back ups did happen. The entire raid on the NAIS was done by Comstar. Think about the TH making the first mech. By your reasoning, the houses should not have had to raid the facilities for such knowledge.
Also the concept of all the information was lost isn't quite true. Parts of it could be lost, which prevents the making of the items or concepts. Space factories show this. The inability to make ferrous armor, endosteel and other low g items would be a good example. Factories and habitats were not all destroyed, so why, other then TPTB didn't want the items made?
How long do cult members stay brainwashed even when opened to outside influence? For the open society to have any influence on a closed one, it takes time. As the clans were a closed society for over 200 years, it isn't something that happens overnight. The splintering of the clans shows it is happening, but it will not just revolt in a day or two. You want instant results and that WILL NOT happen.
Again, you try to suggest that only the clans didn't have the resources to garrison worlds, yet refuse to look far to the past. The DC would never have been formed with holding each world hostage. So the entire IS would not exist. More then a few leaders would have splintered the houses with their actions. The Terran Alliance found that out when the great exodus and colonizing the IS happened. So no. The issue is far more then just the clans.
As a side note that you missed, the clan leaders had to be good tacticians, otherwise their khans would have removed them or prevented them from rising in the ranks if they couldn't win. The trials pit almost even forces against each other, and that meant having to win with tactics. Some defenders didn't get given the almost even forces and still had won.
The willingness to engage units they feel inferior shows the lack of understanding clan thinking again. Most warriors would avoid fighting someone they feel is inferior, which is why solemha units are sent after pirates. It is beneath them. Hatred of a particular unit would be an exception. Otherwise, most warriors would not rush into a battle with an opponent they feel is inferior. The IS warriors were considered inferior, but the thinking was that they were spoiling the SLs lands, which they held dearly. It would be more like a religious crusade. Once the IS started finding out the clans ways, only then did they find out they had to respect the IS.
Then again, this seems to be saying all clan warriors were morons and beyond arrogant. This is not true. They did not shy from battle, but if they constantly did what you are suggesting, then they would be removed or killed by the others as they would be breaking the ways of fighting. Remember that the clans were not horde on horde, but large scale one on one battles. You waited until an enemy was available.
Again, the return of absolute destruction of worlds is required. Once that starts, the 1st war returns in full force. It will splinter houses as the question comes up as to WHEN, not IF, you will do it to them. There is no bs about leaders thinking it wouldn't happen to them. Some would even try to extort others with such threats. To suggest otherwise would be a failure to understand the human nature.
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Requiem
05/28/21 07:39 AM
1.158.223.134
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Question – after transferring the secret ingredient form one planet to the next what would the base price of a single piece of chicken be? A couple hundred C-bills, in order to make this situation economically viable?
Thus putting the ordinary KFC into the Luxury food category – far our of reach from normal people.
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Universities and libraries would not have protected information in their files.
Er ….. Research and Development, and their role within the knowledge bases society and technological innovations …. These institutions can provide a significant role in any countries R&D as well as their economic development …
As for protected information …. How many backups would there be to ensure its safety – including paper?
As for NAIS – how successful was that raid?
Also Tharkad … why is there no record of their raids on Sarna?
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You want instant results and that WILL NOT happen.
Since when did I say this?
Deprogramming can occur and should be included - Psychological warfare units would be utilizing these tactics upon all non-warriors as well a PGCs - there is also a chance an Iron born could flip.
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Again, you try to suggest that only the clans didn't have the resources to garrison worlds, yet refuse to look far to the past.
Please do explain how any garrison force is supposed to effectively garrison Twycross when their population is over one billion.
Also do explain given each Clan’s total TO&E they are supposed to garrison every world they capture during the Initial Invasion – Jade Falcons alone by garrisoning with a Trinary alone would run out of forces to continue the invasion by ¾ mark (approximately) – and some of the others are not even that good.
Sorry but mathematics does not lie, the entire 3050 clan invasion is a complete farcical joke (in my opinion).
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As a side note that you missed, the clan leaders had to be good tacticians, otherwise their khans would have removed them or prevented them from rising in the ranks if they couldn't win.
Problem is how many in their history have been complete and utter wase of space except for the fact they are great pilots?
If you can hold the position through force then you are the leader.
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this seems to be saying all clan warriors were morons and beyond arrogant. This is not true.
Really …. Problems from logistics to lack of information to lack of advanced planning to not understanding their enemy’s culture as well as their response to being invaded ….
Yes they are morons and beyond arrogant to the point of hubris …. TPTB made them this way – just have a look at Operation Neptune and Operation Overlord and the massive level of planning that went into this.
In all reality an operation of this scale would have had to commenced up to 10 years prior to the invasion to ensure Logistics etc were in place – also any office should have completed a loss depletion report and worked out that within a protracted war - their Sibko numbers would never work.
Ignorance and a lack of preparation are no excuse … the only thing that saved them was the TPTB (again in my opinion)
Absolute destruction
Really the clans invade – use ordital bombardments and you expect mercy?
There are people who will use any means to destroy their enemy – and the Clans are not visible they are six months distant – you really expect someone like Indrahar to show mercy?
Just like LeMay if given the chance he would obliterate every clan home world to ensure the safety of the Draconis Combine.
Time to bring some realism to the game!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/28/21 12:14 PM
45.51.181.83
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The entire discussion about psy-ops has been one that you have pushed for the clans to go into a revolt almost immediately after they were in contact with the IS. When Chandy Kurita was used as an example, you basically scoffed since it didn't set off the revolt. Dropping agents onto world and not having the clanners not revolt against their leaders suggests the end result is instant revolt.
The entire concept of holding a full hostile world with even a million troops isn't possible. Especially with there being billions of people on that world. You need local support, which the clans got. This is why the focus on the clans is just bias. The Terran Alliance pulling back to what they did would still have not worked right given the forces the TA had, and the amount of worlds rebelling, even the ones in their own borders. So stop demanding a band aid fix and start from the beginning.
Missing the point that the clan leaders can and did use their positions to refuse certain pilots from being promoted? There are more then a few pilots in the PGCs that were better then front line star captains. They were moved out because of things like age and a bad battle. It got to an extreme shortly after the clans invade, as this is what lead to Trent finally having enough and giving the IS the way back to the home worlds.
Also, they wash out of training if they aren't able to perform tactical thinking. So yeah. All of them had to be good with tactics.
The clans used bombardment once, and you make it sound like they used nothing but? And yet the IS was using more underhanded tactics, like assassinations, bombing of their own to get at the clans, as well as other things.
The clans were preparing to invade when the Dragoons were sent in. So 45 years or so? They were not just sitting on their buts while that was going on. Though they were not building the stations along the routes at this time, do you think they didn't have them premade, and ready to go? That they were preparing for the IS from the first report, which would have them at a greater advantage then what they had in 3049? SL tech helped prevent even more losses.
The flaws are not just the clans, but there before the clans existed. The invasion shown some of them in a greater light. I am not arguing the garrison and logistics issue was bad. They were written that way to allow the IS to hold off the clans. Eventually, TPTB splintered the IS for the wars to continue without causing the Amaris war destruction.
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Requiem
05/28/21 06:10 PM
1.158.223.134
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Comprehension, Psy-ops and the Intelligence division would be working on the Clans issue from day 1.
Results from the use of said information could come at anytime once a weak link has been identifies and exploited.
Timeline is at the discretion of each individual game master.
Dependent upon many factors…..
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You need local support, which the clans got.
Depends upon the cultural dynamics of the world in question as well as how the clans proceed to govern said world!
As stated previously they may get Quizlings – and yet at the same time they will also get the resistance.
A point that was completely lost on the Initial Invasion as well as all future invasions ….
And as stated if they do not get any Quizlings their ability to govern drops to nil and we enter guerrilla warfare with high powered sniper riles and IEDs etc – something the Clans WERE NEVER TRAINED FOR!
Also, their Base Security is a joke if all they have is a trinary to a world – they do not have enough people to enable any decent security requirements – not unless you want to run the entire base personnel into the ground!
Point is no clan can effectively Govern the multitude of planets required to reach Terra given their initial TO&Es.
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Missing the point that the clan leaders can and did use their positions to refuse certain pilots from being promoted?
Missing the point … said people issued a challenge got their leaders into a circle of equals – killed them and by intimidation alone took their place!
Building a rank system on who can kill whom only effectively creates a system whereby the most violent, ruthless and vicious come to the for …. Great way for creating an effective military!
The entire system is geared not to reward the most intelligent …. It is geared to reward the best killers! And that is all that was ever obtained.
Face facts the Clans are a bad joke – they are in no way a modern military fighting force – they are something from a bygone age that should have remained there …. They are the complete opposite of what they originated from and should have been killed off ….
As for all of them had to good with tactics – seen the difference between and officer graduating and something like Rommel …. This is the difference that should have been shown in the initial invasion considering the amount of people who were alive – as well as given the level of complexity of war both sides are used to – the clans use a bidding system as well as prearranged arena for fighting in – it is a clinical sterile version of war it is in no way the real thing! – the IS use the entire planet and every trick in the book and then some new ones – they only thing going for the Clans was advanced tech remove that and the IS would play Kick the can with them – in all reality TPTM nerfed any true response from the IS and all we got was extremely bad writing where all you can do is groan at how bad it is! (again in my opinion!!!!!)
All I can say is that I am so happy when I Nerf the Clans from the game and write my own plot.
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Underhanded Tactics
Again go back and read about LeMay and how the Japanese viewed him – then read about the medal he received from the USA – all he said was it great to be on the winning side otherwise he would have been brought up on War Crimes.
What the Clans believe is underhanded is normal SOP War – yes to every dirty underhanded and vial tactic imaginable to win. When used correctly would have destroyed the Clans as they are in no way prepared for a war to which the IS considers normal.
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Dragoons
Question
Wining the deep periphery where were the Logistical depos, the Dropship / Jumpship / Warship repair facilities, manufacturing facilities for their entire Military Industrial Complex, hospitals, advanced traing facilities for Sibkos (replacement personnel in a timely manner) – Reserve forces – as well as the massive number civilians required.
Point is having everything 6 months away and then shipping it in is the most ludicrous thing any military could undertake when considering an invasion of this magnitude.
Also when was the last report received from the Dragoons – so how outdated was the information they were using?
Sorry but again yes they completely and utterly nerfed the entire idea of creating forward bases that were required to be used as logistics nodes when prosecuting an invasion.
Again go back are review Overlord and Neptune – have a real good look at the complexity as well as the amount of resources required …..
The Clan invasion is a joke by comparison! (again my opinion)
As for holding off the Clans – how many opportunities were written into the story and were nerfed to allow the clans to remain within the IS? The entire invasion story is incredibly badly written!
Tanya the evil manga does a far better job of explain war than these books provided.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/28/21 07:28 PM
45.51.181.83
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The clans were never trained for fighting against snipers and such, yet they produced the Dragoons to use the same tactics in the IS. A major contradiction, as the Dark Caste would well use some of those tactics as well. So this conclusion of not being trained for it is inaccurate. It was not a main tactic they used. Also rethink what head hunting is. The use of mechs does not change the idea of snipers.
Leaders can and did refuse to deal with challenges against them, as well as naming champions to fight for them. Simply put, the clans had politics and used them just as the IS did. They did NOT rely on them to keep them out of trouble. And no matter what, just because you challenge someone, doesn't mean it will end in a fight. Also, you can challenge someone and they could decide to fight un-augmented, which means no equipment. Or in an environment that you have never dealt with. It also does not mean the leader isn't the best fighter in the unit either. Another way to remove renegades is send them on a suicide mission. Underbid a fight, and let the person die, or be refused of Isorla. That shames the pilot to the point that most will shun him, IF the leaders allow them to be a warrior again. If not a warrior, then you do NOT get to challenge anything. Politics really bite.
Still not getting the fact that if you don't pass certain skills in training, you do NOT become a warrior. Doesn't matter if you are the most brilliant tactician every seen, if you don't become a warrior, you don't even get a footnote in clan history. There are goals you MUST hit in order to continue on. It is that simple. That is not saying every clan warrior is the absolute best tactician, but they do have to pass their marks.
The clans were building the depots as they proceeded to the IS. But they had the materials already sitting around to do so. Even with the clans, I seriously doubt they could build a new station in 3 months, without having it all ready to go. And again, each clan had their own routes, so even more unlikely to build them without having the parts ready.
The hatred towards the clans has blinded you to the fact that the short comings you say are clan only, were in the game long before the clans were introduced. The idea that a planet went over to a conquering entity when the capital fell is a bit laughable. But the game seemed to be based on that fact. Since the 3rd war of surrendering instead of suicidal resistance was used, this is the norm.
Using underhanded tactics was some what, how the IS held the clans back, but the clans did overcome most of it. The fact that the clans were brutal to the populace, removed the concept of using a lot of those tactics. The idea of come back another day and retake what is lost, was the idea for the IS. The issue was the IS did not have another day to do so for the most part.
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Requiem
05/29/21 06:54 AM
1.158.223.134
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Please do provide where it was written that the Home World Clans were trained in anti-sniper activity.
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Leaders can and did refuse to deal with challenges …
And when rumours emerge that the leader is afraid …..
They view themselves as genetically superior to everyone … if that if brought into question they will have no choice but fight, that is unless they can put up with all the gossip ….. accusations of being a coward, failing their Clan, being of inferior stock ….
And how many died un-augmented …. even Rose was able to do this in the hold of his dropship ….
As for Khans killing off political rivals is just par of the course within the age of politics ….
Still not getting it the IS has courses whereby the best and brightest minds can still make the grade within HQ, without being a Mechwarrior, thus the IS has a competitive advantage over the Clans with regards to recruitment ….
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The clans were building the depos as they proceeded to the IS
A day late and a dollar short …. As they proceeded
This is a massive invasion and as such requires a MASSIVE logistical and technical support apparatus – this should have been started years in advance of the main invasion in order to achieve the logistical standards required for the invasion.
In all reality 20 years would be my starting date given that it takes 6 months just to get back to the Clan Home worlds …. The massive number of military and civilian industrial complexes in order to create such a chain of logistical worlds would have required a massive amount or manpower.
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since the 3rd war of surrendering …
Problem is both sides knew what to expect when captured by one house or the other – The clans are an unknown – who has some very stupid ideas when in comes to the family unit as well as class status and the rights of people within that class ….
Their way of life is completely unacceptable to that of the IS …. This alone would result in a never ending war.
Quote:
… but the Clans did overcome it
Only with the assistance of the TPTB … in all reality, over time, the wars on most planets would have devolved into years, something the clans have never had to fight in the past and would have resulted into a meat grinder …. And yet what we were given is a joke of an invasion ….
The clans are in now way designed as an invasion force that is capable of sustaining a protracted war!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/29/21 07:06 PM
45.51.181.83
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Learn about the clans before posting, please. The Dragoons had anti sniper infantry as well as commandos and other dishonorable units when they got to the IS. Are you suggesting that the freeborns were picked for those skills. I want to say one of the posts that this was discussed you suggesting the Scorpions trained them. So the great comprehensive reader can't figure this out?
If someone suggests the leader was a coward, more then a few of their supporters would counter this. But the only time an accusation would stick is if they said it directly to the person they were calling a coward in front of a crowd. With clan indoctrination, this is pretty well silenced when the CO says be quiet. Rumors are looked down on, as it makes the complainer look like a whiny little sibko trainee.
Again. Learn how the clans act and think. They didn't plan to invade every world in the IS. They planned for a quick strike to Terra and thought the IS would fold, once the clans held it. The leaders basically ignored the Dragons, then their own operatives they sent, that the IS wasn't some drunken unskilled barbarians ruining paradise.
I believe someone suggested they were preparing for the invasion back before the Dragoon solution was agreed upon.
Try expanding your concepts a little. The hatred between some of the states were so bad, that newly conquered worlds would be purged of those the winners thought would be trouble, or moved to worlds where their own people would remove the threat. The DC and CC were two of the major ones to do this, but even the FS/FC did this as well.
As for those taken by the clans, they thought their houses would liberate them shortly, so instead of suffering, they went along with it.
The clans would not waste time and materials trying to train those that could not learn to do their jobs. Failure rate for the IS sibkos would have been high, and the children returned to their parents rather quickly.
Again. Learn the actual invasion plans. They were NOT expecting a protracted war. They ended up with it. This is not saying TPTB didn't screw up with this. The fact they continued and made it worse is the bad thing.
As for Rose and others, the story tellers couldn't kill the hero, so they had to make some bs way to clan commander in one on one. And the writers are well known for ignoring the games actualy rules to come up with something entertaining. A mech going a forward flip and not landing, but gliding over a crowd is but one of those.
Come to think of it, anti sniper training should be standard, just like calling in artillery(idf) would be.
The one falcon commander had ordered his pilots to eject when he had to recertify. Vlad called him out on it.
Clan Wolf also provided special training for the fledgling unit to mask their origins. This training was backed up by Star League records and holographic video provided by advisers from Clan Goliath Scorpion, who would also send their elite Heartvenom Cluster for purposes of instructing through mock-battles against the Wolf warriors.[5]
Edited by ghostrider (05/29/21 07:09 PM)
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Requiem
05/30/21 07:59 AM
1.158.223.134
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Quote:
Learn about the Clans before posting, please
Since when can anyone compare the Wolfs to the Clans?
Really? Even though they are supposed to originate from the same historical background – can anyone really call them the same?
Case in point their commando team et al – where has any other clan utilized a similar force anywhere within the invasion? …. ie. only toads …… nothing ever representing the commandoes ever appear – even within PGCs.
So again – the Dragoons may have Commandoes et al – but the Clans have absolutely none!
Quote:
… more than a few of his supporters would counter this
POLITICS …. And more of the other warriors supporters would intensify their attack …. As an example that which is occurring currently!
Quote:
They didn’t plan to invade every world in the IS
First – did they believe that once they wone Terra every House would just capitulate just because …? Can I laugh now? What are they children in their views?
Second – Mathematics does not lie – given the numbers suppled for each Clan’s TO&E for the invasion once they hit the ¾ mark (or there about) given the number of worlds within each corridor they have captured they WILL run out of forces for the front line due the requirements of garrisoning each of these worlds …. This is even despite the use of PGCs – if you actually read each Clans Touman you will find that they actually do not have a large number of PGCs - so unless the TPTB massively rewrite everything the invasion just does not work! They do not have a military force sizeable enough to complete the invasion – The only way this can be done is via a Trial of absorption and whomever looses also looses their entire invasion corridor (returning it to the IS) and then continuing on with the invasion!
However problem is they would both obliterate each other than capitulate – however as seen in the Falcons Vs Wolves TPTB cheated – did not allow the IS attack the weakened Clans and even allowed then to return home – and take forces from other Clans and return thus providing them with a new 100% fighting force – despite the fact that the home Clans or even the other IS Clans should have initiated a Trial of absorption upon the remnants of both the Falcons and the Wolves – which again is the most un-Clan like thing to do and is cheating! (again in my opinion).
Quote:
Purges
Really …
Quote:
so instead of suffering they went along with it
How did that work out for every invading force entering every county ….. sooner or later home may partisans are there? How many fight for how many centuries in an effort to gain self determination?
How long did the FRR fight for their independence against the DC – and now we are supposed to believe they stop this and jus roll over for the Clans? Time to get real ….
Quote:
and the children returned to their parents rather quickly
Sorry this is not SOP for the Clans at home … so why would they do this whist abroad ?
Quote:
They were not expected a protracted war
Then their logistics from day one should have been incredibly iffy – thus their ability to conduct a long term war is non existent – thus why don’t we ever see this in the invasion? TPTB completely ruined the storey with how badly written it became.
Quote:
And the writers are well known for ignoring the games actualy rules to come up with something entertaining.
And by taking this view we ended up with a story that has no believability ……
As for the First Cateran Cluster – this training was in 3001 – and they remained on the Home Worlds … so nil to do with the actual invasion 3050.
Sorry but this is the problem the Cannon Clans are in no way what they should have been given their origins gone very wrong (in my opinion) …. The flow of history is completely disjointed it parts - makes little sense in major points throughout history – and many of the key people once you conduct serious research into them are full of inconsistencies or have facts that make absolutely no sense whatsoever and just make you wand to laugh at the complete absurdity due the facts given …
This is the point – the Clan invasion has way too many problems! (again in my opinion!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/30/21 11:47 AM
45.51.181.83
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What do the Watch personnel train in then? Infiltration, security systems, and quick kill would be but three things. I would suspect they are trained in other things, but use them so rarely, they are not printed. There have been noted of clan units making bombs out of normal materials. Elementals can use their anti personnel equipment to snipe enemies. Part of head hunting for them. So there is no real special skills that aren't known to the clans for a sniper.
When the clans invaded, they had a stricter policy of 'honor'. Now that the IS ways have infiltrated the clans, they are changing just as you wanted to. They see that you don't have to follow the clan customs, so have become much like the IS. Politics of using position to cover your weakness in the skills that were once admired in the clans has become more and more common. Might as well compare humanity to the cave man and say today represents what we were.
What do you think the clans would do if the Grand Council was beaten? Do you think all the clans would see this as their defeat and except it? As most clanners would not believe the IS would fight on after their leaders surrendered, they were shown how wrong that thought process was. But again. Once the leader surrendered, there was rarely any fighting that went beyond that moment. Those that did were dezgra and exterminated by both sides.
Lack of understanding the clans shows again. The clans were brainwashed into believing the IS was a bunch of weak cowards that were just partying in the blessed SL worlds. No real backbone or skills. They ignored the dragoons reports for the most part. To do otherwise would have caused the Crusaders to look foolish and stupid, which would have destroyed their power base. It would also sky rocket the Wardens position as most would have deemed it stupid to try the invasion.
So what was the policy of the clans in failed freeborns that flunked out of testing? Trueborns had no real family that they knew of, so couldn't really go anywhere, but learned to live outside of the 'elite' living of warriors.
The statement: They were not expected a protracted war
Your answer: Then their logistics from day one should have been incredibly iffy
Most of the invading clans did have iffy logistics. They figured like 15 good battles and it would be over. Munitions could be taken from the enemy with only repair items and replacements needing to be from the home worlds.
Looks like expectations of what the clans could produce in a short time was horrible in your opinion, as it seems you think they can not make 100s of times more items then they did before the invasion. I will let this slide, as I have no seen any print on just how much, or how little the clans can actually make in a given time span. Still, your response is the very thing you are complaining about. Not sure if you even see that.
The flow of history is completely disjointed it parts
This is the ENTIRE story of the IS, not just the clans. The novel writers don't stick with the rules. That is a fact. But those that are supposed to be writing the history of the universe are a problem. They were supposed to be writing the history, not an entertainment story, having to keep it interesting. The fluff and the fact that it seems most of the advances and rule changes aren't adhered to in updates and such.
Believable? Most sci fi stories have flaws that make them unbelievable. Gundam Wing being one of them. Super machines that can destroy fleets that were not used consistently by those defending their worlds? Having weapons that other units don't have? Robotech having the ability to take a shattered world and train enough pilots to create the REX and RDF with the numbers they got as well as having most of the planet in ruins during the Invid saga?
The clan invasion has issues. But as said before, the whole history has issues.
The DC should have never made it to a main house due to the numbers of troops. The CC would have fallen apart before the 3rd war due to the Liao's hording the money and keep the citizens as poor and under the thumb as they can. The FWL should have splintered under their own rules long before. The LC would have had so much infighting as the rich fought more battles with the rich for control of the state, with Skye going independent. The FS would have never formed as the march lords would not have given up their power, and without the strong CC and DC, never would have had to do so. The SL probably would have never formed, as the TH would have been able to expand outwards, without having to deal with the great houses. The periphery would not have formed the large organizations due to the lack of need as the great houses would not have come about.
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Karagin
05/30/21 03:14 PM
70.118.172.64
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ghostrider wrote:
Quote:
. The leaders basically ignored the Dragons, then their own operatives they sent, that the IS wasn't some drunken unskilled barbarians ruining paradise.
I believe someone suggested they were preparing for the invasion back before the Dragoon solution was agreed upon.
It's not that they ignored it, they didn't believe the reports, not at first, and recall the Wolf Clan Khan Ward (Jermone I believe) ORDERED the Dragoons to obey no recall but one that came from him only.
The Dragoons reports didn't paint a picture of the Inner Sphere as a major threat until their last supply run and that's when they got new orders. Prep the Inner Sphere for war with the Clans.
So yes the Clans had plans in place to invade the Inner Sphere, which is made VERY clear in all their literature from day one.
Quote:
Clan Wolf also provided special training for the fledgling unit to mask their origins. This training was backed up by Star League records and holographic video provided by advisers from Clan Goliath Scorpion, who would also send their elite Heartvenom Cluster for purposes of instructing through mock-battles against the Wolf warriors.[5]
This was added later on but still gives more to WHY the Dragoons were always looking for SLDF bases, depots, etc...as well as how they knew where certain things were like Outreach, etc...
Again, this is getting to be a repeat of all the other conversations, one person feels their version of the game is better and that's all they push regardless of what we point out.
The Clans didn't have long-term plans beyond, grab Terra and sort it out later, and that seems to be the current plan as well with Alric and the ilClan outcome.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/30/21 06:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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The question of why Alric even exists comes up. Even for the wolves, mixing DNA of IS leaders would have been something the Trueborns would not have really allowed to prosper and eventually lead the entire wolves.
Given what went on during the era that Vlad rescued Katherine from her prison, it is unlikely the wolves would have even let that combination go.
The statement from the wiki about the special training was meant to show the clans did in fact know about warfare that did not conform to their honor codes.
The fact that a lot of things were put in afterwards, is part of the reason things are a bit wonky.
But the basics of the game still make it decent fun to play, so the game still lives.
And again. The players do not really alter the canon storyline, so most can basically ignore it.
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Karagin
05/30/21 06:33 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
The question of why Alric even exists comes up. Even for the wolves, mixing DNA of IS leaders would have been something the Trueborns would not have really allowed to prosper and eventually lead the entire wolves.
Given what went on during the era that Vlad rescued Katherine from her prison, it is unlikely the wolves would have even let that combination go.
Just another reason the whole shoehorned Jihad/Dark Age stuff should never have happen IMVHO.
Quote:
The statement from the wiki about the special training was meant to show the clans did in fact know about warfare that did not conform to their honor codes.
The fact that a lot of things were put in afterwards, is part of the reason things are a bit wonky.
But the basics of the game still make it decent fun to play, so the game still lives.
And again. The players do not really alter the canon storyline, so most can basically ignore it.
They knew of other ways, they just tried to avoid them, since to the Clans that way of war was wasteful and not worthy of a true warrior. If anyone is claiming other wise then they have NOT READ any of the sourcebooks and spend too much time relying on the wiki here for their info, they need to read the sourcebooks, so much more is in those that don't make it to the wiki. I say that because the Wiki can't even keep maps up to date after changes in who the cool kids are as far as the TPTB go... Yes, I said that and I stand by it.
The basic game works, no rules exist saying a player has to follow canon, and another issue too many has when they confuse WH40K with Battletech. Anyone who claims you have to play the way the story is written out has either not been playing very long or is very confused as to what game system they are playing.
I know plenty of folks who won't play Clan tech. They will use the IS mechs with the SLDF Tech and things like that, but NO Clan tech or units. Which is cool, it works for them and it's fun to play at times. Just as it is to play nothing but Clan vs Clan.
I don't follow the canon timeline, infact I find it full of issue and all start more or less with Jiahd. I know some like that setting, I don't. Doesn't mean I am wrong, and thus I can play any era I want, or just have random fights between lances or more or less of mechs ,etc...
The game is fun, otherwise it wouldn't still be around in 2021.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/31/21 06:10 AM
1.158.147.1
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The Watch - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Watch
“ … When the Clan Invasion began …. However, centuries of ritualized warfare had caused the Clans to regard covert operations as not only dishonorable but unnecessary given their clear martial supremacy. Thus the Watch was ill-trained, underfunded, and ill-equipped, staffed largely by merchants, technicians and the proverbial "bottom of the barrel" from the warrior caste. The infiltration of opposing factions was practically non-existent, intelligence-gathering operations usually little more than eavesdropping on local newsvids prior to an attack, and even what data was gathered could not be properly analyzed given the Watch's insufficient capabilities. The resulting intelligence failures, numerous and spectacular …”
And yet given this level of ineptitude where do we ever see the effects of this occurring within the many Clan battles?
Elementals
Question – what is the maximum range of their weapon systems? Plus how any of them have shown that they are all bull on the battlefield and no stealth whatso ever …
Then compare this to the maximum range of IS infantry forces weapons and support weapons they can bring to the battlefield plus adding in sneak suit tech plus anti electronic chaff etc ….
And what you have is very-large targets for mass infantry that literally can end up being thousands to one on any battlefield ……
Quote:
What do you think the clans would do if the Grand Council was beaten?
War is as much concept as conduct ….. it depends upon how you deal with the Grand Council.
Quote:
Once the leader surrendered, there was rarely any fighting that went beyond that moment.
Sorry but this is never the case – there is always partisan fighting …. that with the arrival of new leadership rise and fall accordingly ….
Quote:
The clans were brainwashed into believing the IS was a bunch of weak cowards that were just partying in the blessed SL worlds. No real backbone or skills
How many wars have begun with such error – WW2 USA vs Japan comes to mind as an example …then there is also USA vs Vietnam …..
And yet once again I must ask where do we ever see the effects of this occurring within the many Clan battles?
Quote:
Looks like expectations of what the clans could produce in a short time was horrible in your opinion, as it seems you think they can not make 100s of times more items then they did before the invasion.
The issue is not in quantity – the issue is in regards to tyranny of distance – that pesky six months to receive any sizeable logistics
So if they planned for 15 good battles to win their overall logistics were incredibly short – thus in order to rectify this a ship (as there was no HPG communication at this stage as seen by the election of next il-khan) would have to run home – 6 months – request massive resupply fleet – in my opinion 3 months then rush back to the IS – 6 months – Thus a total of 15 months with absolutely reduced logistics during the first wars of the Invasion.
Again, do we see any logistical issues in the first few battles of the invasion brough on upon lack of supplies brought with them due to a complete and utter miscalculation as to the enemy they were to engage …. And the answer is NO!
Quote:
Believable? Most sci fi stories have flaws that make them unbelievable.
And yet Warhammer 40K, who has one of the most complicated histories is science fiction, is able to complete this with ease as they have a dedicated team in place to ensure that everything printed fits for the time and geographical in which the story relates to …and they are not beyond loosing whole areas and people … in order to ensure believability! And look at the immense size they have become.
If only!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/31/21 12:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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A lot of the points you are trying to make come down to the rules being different then real life. A laser that can melt battle armor, should be able to take out a human on the horizon. Laser rifles have a decent range, yet can barely do a single point of damage to a mech, as they are the same ones Laser infantry use. Figure that one.
And the saving grace for the clans garrison issues was none other then Comstar. They took over administering the worlds, pacifying a lot of the populations. This is all in the books. Comprehend what is actually written, not what you want to see.
If not for that fact, the clans would have torched a few more worlds the Turtle Bay.
Once finding out they needed more supplies, they turned to the Sharks, which DID have things to sell. And once they realized they needed more, they could set up larger supply runs with command circuit style set up. 2 jumps, and shift the dropships to another jumpship that was already charged. One secured, they performed their two jumps making the trip that much quicker. They would also have normal one jump vessels going as well. The list of units for the invasion did not hold when the clans found out they could not continue with them in their bid. Also, the Sharks were not part of that bid, nor does it say they could not add more supply ships.
Let's see. Warhammer was built as a gaming system in what? 2000? about 20 years after BT was formed. So all that data on how to do, and not do, a gaming system. It was originally set up as a quick fight between large groups that morphed into the space game that is out today. It covers castles and knights as well as space marines. This is not saying the BT developers were good at fixing things, or even making sure what they were going to put out worked right. Mechwarrior the original RPG had a major issue with the stat numbers and skill levels. If you got 12 in two stats that combined to create the target for a skill such as gunnery, then got a level 8 in gunnery, you would be in negative numbers on a to hit. The Enforcer in the Davion house book, the first one, had armor on it that was over the ton limit for what armor was allocated. And in that book, it states that the mech had shielding in it to prevent the worse radiation in the compartment.
And I believe I am done with the BS of giving out the information to someone that supposedly read the entire game books, and won't bother to look up the information. OH yeah. You don't have all the books, so don't actually have the information you need to comprehend what is there.
Edited by ghostrider (05/31/21 12:12 PM)
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Requiem
05/31/21 06:44 PM
1.158.147.1
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Infantry Support Weapons
How many infantry support weapons are man portable and have far greater range than that of the Toads and the ability to penetrate armour or roast whatever is inside with Inferno rounds?
Also with just one set of communications gear and a map you can call in an artillery strike or call in an aerospace fighter attack on the ground or call in a VTOL strike with their weapon systems or my favourite a combination of all?
Toads are very conspicuous on the battlefield and should be readily delectable in comparison to that of infantry with sneak suits / camouflage / ECM / Chaff everywhere ….
…. we will use the fighters to pin them in place – then use the artillery for full force – then use the VTOLs to mop up any thing left and if anything survives all that send in the Infantry with their HE plastic - to remove whatever is left over….
Sorry but given the sheer numbers of any IS Infantry Unit vs the total number of Toads the Clans brought with them the IS (when armed correctly) should be able to roast these toads inflicting very-high numbers of casualties per battle – that cannot be replaced with a
Time to face facts the clans toads should have experienced very high number of casualties!
That is quite impossible to be replaced given the SIBKO system.
COMSTAR
Question being a Quisling government how did that work out for any of these governments throughout history – did any of them ever stop partisan activities? And how many were finally replaced or killed off by the people they were working for?
Sorry but basic history says otherwise to Comstar administering any world with any degree of effectiveness except by the quislings ….
All other partisan activity would be occurring as per normal and given the small number of warriors per world does not work long term …
‘Torched a few more worlds than Turtle Bay”
If this occurred – First Succession War / Jihad full biological / nuclear war against the Clans!
Clan Diamond Shark – as per sarna wiki
Whist acting as observers to the invasion the saKhan determined that she would visit as many conquered worlds as possible, take note of what supplies they needed, and report this information to the rest of the Clan so profitable trade could commence.
This quite clearly written Clan Diamond Shark Merchant fleets WERE NOT THERE for the initial invasion!
QED the logistical issues (lack of realistic supplies) for the initial invasion were completely ignored by writers.
Battletech – 1984 and Warhammer – 1987
Who has their own franchising stores all throughout the world and who is consigned to only selling via the web?
Who puts out massive number of books, audo books, models, game supplements etc every month and who only puts out a couple every year?
Sorry but Warhammer is far in advance.
And yes, they do have a team of individuals who do make sure the timeline is strictly adhered to when it comes to their in-game history due to geographic location …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/27/21 09:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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I believe I had an epiphany with a post in another thread.
The concept of having to limit the forces all entity's have in order to allow small units to function and do their jobs.
For any that actually have contact with the original developers or know them, I would like to know if they purposefully did this to allow small units to function. I know the game did this to make mechs the sought after unit to use, but I want to believe it does have some basis on numbers of opposition verses things like mercs only having a lance or less.
In the alt thread, the suggestion that every world has what could be considered a real life number of military personnel, would mean you could not operate a unit with a small number of mechs/vehicles/fighters.
The sheer fact of running into a battalion of vehicles at almost any major defense point would prevent any unit like a lance of light mechs being able to do anything. It would not be fun at all with this scenario.
Not to mention the grind of just trying to get to the world you are to operate on, if it is enemy controlled.
I could see months of fighting just to start to gain ground on an invasion with several RCTs to each side, with more having to be brought in to negate militia and garrison forces, on top of reinforcements being sent in.
I do not condone the use of nukes, but could see why they would be used in this situation, as you are GOING to lose large chunks of your troops. This sounds like making an excuse for their use, which may well be. Even if you have more troops over the enemy, it does not mean you will win, even if you are, say a regiment of mechs up.
I think this is why the IS had to be in bad shape from the succession wars, otherwise there is no quick way to take any world.
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Requiem
06/28/21 06:14 AM
1.158.147.1
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Small units can still function!
Upon investigating every world within both the CC and the FS then placing this information into a massive excel sheet it is quite clear that there are still many great worlds that have little to no military value and yet will still require a Mech Garrison etc – a good example is Sherwood within the FS …. Contract to stop an illegal Tree Felling Pirates ….
Or how about Bryant within the CC – The federated suns have noticed this world has an A-Class HPG on world for a 63,000 population (3025) – history indicates that the storm inhibitors were destroyed during the Amaris War. Thus the many cities may still be intact – the spy organisation have placed a satellite in orbit and has noticed an unidentified Dropship descending to the your job is to go in and investigate …
If your unit distinguishes itself you may even get a gig on an important world ..
There are many, many more that can be set throughout the IS for small units ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/29/21 01:18 AM
45.51.181.83
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Small units will now be part of larger units, which means you will be under someone else's commands. They will NOT allow you to go off and do what ever you want. You will be given orders and expected to obey them to the letter.
Having 10 regiments of troops on each world, means you will need at least 2 in order to even raid them, and that is not counting the aero forces that will be needed to distract the enemy. Pirates would not exist, as they could not field enough forces to really threaten anyone if there were huge forces on each world.
The SLDF had to deal with pirates, as they could not just attack anything that came their way, as they were politically stuck with the successor states. I don't believe any pirates hit the TH, since the SLDF could respond with massive forces, verses trying to deal with them towards the periphery.
Again, the point is missed. This last concept was that if the game had the large amount of forces, the small units could NOT survive long enough to do anything. You would have to be part of a larger unit, which rules out most mercs just starting out. You would not be independent. This also means you are at the mercy of the larger units commanders. They will probably send you out to soak up enemy fire, as to protect their units and allow them to claim that the commander is so great, the enemy died without doing much in return. And they would have evidence to prove it.
If things go badly, it is your fault and they would have evidence to show that as well. Mercs would be more of a political pawn then they are in the canon game.
The practice the DC tends to do in the canon game would be considered an every day thing, unless you were friends with the higher ups.
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ghostrider
07/03/21 03:31 AM
45.51.181.83
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A question came up from a discussion about shuttles.
As people seem to have custom mechs, vehicles, fighters, dropships, warships, and for some powered armor, how many people have made a custom shuttle that isn't a refueling shuttle?
It seemed odd to hear that canon doesn't have one set up to carry the heaviest combat units, yet it was said the person has made a super sonic VTOL.
This may violate one of the rules asking, but I am interested in the topic.
Also, would there be a legal way to make a shuttle that could carry a unit outside of the shuttle itself like they do in HALO? It can be crewed once it was set down, making it so it didn't have to take up pressurized space.
Another question came up that deals with actual space on a shuttle. If you can carry 60 tons of cargo, does that mean you can carry 2- 30 ton units, like a pair of Hunters? Or are you just limited in space to just one?
I would think just one, but would like more input.
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ghostrider
07/09/21 03:54 PM
45.51.181.83
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The question of what armor is used in clan elemental armor has come up in another thread, and it got me thinking about the max armor a mech can have.
I believe the armor on elementals is the same thing that is on mechs.
What if it is different?
It withstands the same damage as normal armor. The idea that is would be lighter, so the powered structure that is part of the elemental armor could move it easily. If so, why wouldn't the rest of the clan units use this armor instead of the heavier and bulkier armor that is normal armor?
This raises the question of why mechs are limited to double the protection of their internal structure? I know it is to make sure that mechs aren't so overpowering that nothing else can touch it.
But what is the reason for this limit?
It isn't weight of the armor limiting it, as ferrous fiber just has more protection per tonnage. So that can't be it. And with ferrous fiber, it can not exceed the protection even though the armor is lighter.
So what bit of logic am I missing to solve this issue?
Modular armor came out to change this, which allows over the limit, at a cost. But the fact this can happen means the limit isn't correct. Simply adding a little more internal structure to the mech, to hold the armor should allow more armor to be mounted normally.
So again, what am I missing?
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ghostrider
07/26/21 02:40 AM
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It is a bit funny and odd that when the Helm Core came out and TRO2750 was published, I had gotten the 3050 book at the same time.
I had thought the Star League had all the clan weapons that were not clan exclusive, including all the LBX size canons, the ultras, streaks, and ER lasers, but thought they were left out as they were corrupted in the core, or not researched enough to manufacture.
Granted, I did not think they were the same weight and crits, just that the SL had researched them all.
A what if comes to mind here.
What if the IS did have all those variants done up before the clans came, if they would have made an impact on the outcome, other then TPTB wanted the clans to be that superior?
I would think just the ERML would have changed more then a few outcomes, as the range would have competed with the clans. Not matched, but at least not have to close within the 9 hex range.
I would also think having the ultra and lbx 20's as well as the streak 6 pack would have done a lot as well. But this might also have affected the 3039 war as well.
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Karagin
07/26/21 09:26 AM
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I think you are on the right track, the items that go on to be Clan tech, like all the LB-X and Ultra and Streak, etc...all were researched by the SLDF. That would make sense and would really make the prototype stuff we see added in, on top of the massive amount of junk, fit the setting better and shows a linear path for the Clan weapons and a possible logical path for IS vs the mess that we got.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/08/21 12:53 AM
45.51.181.83
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A point was brought up that I find interesting.
I know the game likes to keep things simple, so this is just a point, not intended to be done in game.
But shouldn't laser damage to buildings be dramatically reduced?
The whole concept of them having to remain focused on a single point in order to do damage would mean the beam should burn right thru the building, and without catching it on fire, do little damage, as it will only create a hole the size of the laser itself, without touching anywhere else?
As you are not supposed to be able to sweep the beam, this would be like damage to infantry units.
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ghostrider
08/08/21 02:23 PM
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Another point came up with anti mech infantry.
Given the 'official' pictures in the older books, wouldn't the Anti mech infantry be required to have a completely different uniform?
You are talking about possibly climbing onto a mech that is probably running hot from combat. I would think the soldiers would be getting cooked from the head radiating off the mech. This should be especially true if they are near the heat sink vents.
Techs are said to have to have a work cubicle when working on mechs right after a battle.
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ghostrider
08/11/21 02:31 AM
45.51.181.83
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Had a question come up which I would like an answer to.
How does gunnery skill work verse the computer locking on a target?
That novels and video games set up a lock on a target, with the game rules suggesting the battle comp is in charge of doing so. The Streak is a prime example of this.
Yet the persons gunnery skill is supposed to determine wether they hit or not.
Something of a circular logic is formed from this conflict.
This is true of having things like multiple medium lasers on say a hunchback variant, that some hit and some miss. Even spreading across a target hitting legs, arms, torso, and even the head. I am not talking of a secondary target, but all on one. Then comes in the pulse laser factor. They are supposed to have micro movement in the targeting set up to provide a more accurate firing pattern to do more damage.
I know this sounds picky, and it probably is.
There are times when the pilot can out perform the computer with shots, or so the fluff brings out. How does the pilot override the battlecomp to perform this?
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ghostrider
08/11/21 11:41 AM
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The problems expand when firing multiple different style weapons. Lrm tend to arc towards a target, while srms seem to need to be aimed up some as well, so they can reach their limit, while lasers are basically point straight at the target, while canons need to lead their target some. Not sure if PPCs are instant hits or not, but even they have their quirks.
All of this is bad enough when spread around a mech, but when they are located on a single point, like an arm, it becomes more of a mess. Even a turret would have issues with needing to aim at different points when firing.
This is especially true with an alpha strike. All weapons firing at once, not even the slightest pause between the different weapons firing. The enforce would be a decent example. Firing the have to remain on a specific point large laser, being fired at the same time as the recoil from the AC 10 would be shaking the unit. Or so all the novels and fluff suggest.
Edited by ghostrider (08/11/21 11:50 AM)
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ghostrider
08/15/21 09:17 AM
45.51.181.83
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This just in....
A copy of a Computer Core found on the ex-Smoke Jaguar planet Huntress has finally been decoded and now we know why Kerensky launched the war against Amaris and left the Innersphere.
It turns out Stephan Amaris had decided to make avocadoes the official food of the Terran Hegemony and the Star League. This upset Kerensky so much, as he hated avocadoes, to the point of having to remove Stephen Amaris from his position. In protest, the House leaders adopted the same stance on avocadoes and made them the national food for each state as well.
This stance gave the General the notion that there would be no compromise to even begin reforming the Star League, so he decided to leave the innnersphere.
On a side note, it turns out the RWR was already mass farming avocadoes, and was set to flood the rest of the houses with massive amounts of avocadoes, all of which Amaris personally owned.
This explains why Omi Kurita loved Avocado toast.
Stay tuned for more news as we continue the decoding of the core....
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ghostrider
08/18/21 02:46 AM
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The idea that so many HPG units, the large ones as well as the smaller ones, would lead to the issue that attacks from one nation would be difficult to launch while the units are active.
It would be quick and easy to relay information about units leaving their posts, as well as dropships they might be on, with others watching for those very dropships at stations and such.
This means the enemy will have a good idea of where the troops came from and how to counter it. Maybe even invade the areas that the units left from.
Yes, moving troops around is a means of confusing the enemy, but then knowing what is fake and what is real is intel's job.
So is this how the SL was able to secure locations?
Being able to send units to areas that someone would try to stage from or show up in an area left underdefended?
It could be projected that this is why the SL did poorly against the periphery, as the SL didn't have agents to keep a more accurate update quicker, while the periphery would have had that data?
I know the use of nukes was a big issue, but knowing when and where the SL was at with what forces would have helped wipe out more troops with less nukes.
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Requiem
08/18/21 05:07 AM
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Quote:
So is this how the SL was able to secure locations?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force
2764
Over 15,000 regiments – organized into 125 BattleMech divisions, 200 mechanized infantry divisions, 75 jump infantry divisions, and the remainder as independent regiments
Combined into 20 armies – 3 each for a Great House, 1 each for the Terran Hegemony and Periphery
Each area throughout the Star League is effectively garrisoned by the SLDF.
However, I would like to point out one small error with this division of men and materials – Larger Military Regions, such as the Lyran Commonwealth and the Federated Suns have been provided with the same amount of SLDF units as the Capellan Confederation. Thus, where the Confederation is now effectively locked down the same cannot be said with the Suns and Lyrans whose sheer number of worlds would now pose a problem to effectively monitor all of them. Whist the smaller Periphery states would be virtually tripping over the number of SLDF units on all of their worlds – so it is no wonder they came to see the SLDF as an occupying force.
As for why the SLDF performed poorly within the Periphery states – my bet is on bad habits, soldiers have been known for it throughout history if discipline is not maintained - considering the Magistracy of Canopus this is not hard to believe.
Other suggestions – Poor leadership (as it only the periphery!) – Surprise devastating first attack (including terrorist acts) – The Periphery just had better officers that that of the SLDF … and the list goes on – though considering the size and assumed professionalism of a SLDF Army it is difficult to understand how this occurred.
As for communication – I would assume on-world yes the Periphery should have the upper hand – off-world not so much – Though if you factor in communication as a reason for why the SLDF did so poorly I can only suggest that the Periphery had access to Black Box Technology.
As for nukes this raises an interesting question – where were they made and stored – how were they distributed? As wouldn’t such devices be on the prohibited weapons list for any Periphery state during the Star League era – thus, in order to make them, it would require a clandestine operation hidden away someplace?
For that matter I would like to know this for EVERY great house – where did they make theirs and where did they store them as during the First Succession war you would assume that every manufacturing facility would be a primary Target for bombing. And yet what info is there?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/19/21 12:06 AM
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Had some thoughts on the black box and the HPG relays.
What is the max range of the Black Box signals?
In the story line, the signal sent from Lutien was to reach New Avalon telling of the impending clan attack. As this is not an exact point to point communications device, would the TC have gotten that signal at some point after it went past New Avalon?
I know the TC wasn't supposed to have the black box technology, so wouldn't actually receive it, but that does not mean the signal wouldn't have made it there.
This leads to the question of the large HPG systems. 50 Light Years is supposed max for instantaneous coms, but does the signal just end? Or will it continue past the target?
This also makes me wonder if the need for 'pinpoint' connection means warships could not contact one another in different systems, but would have to contact a planetary system.
If they can contact ships in another system, then how wide is the actual HPG beam? A warship could be anywhere in a system, not just the jump points.
This comes up as someone was suggesting a black box in the clan home worlds could send a message to the CC and beyond, and get a message back as well. It might take years, but in game rules, it seems possible.
The fluff says they added direction and coded transmissions to the FC boxes.
This also has the implication that the SL had made the boxes, they should have been able to send information across a full house border.
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Requiem
08/19/21 06:43 PM
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Box
After reading the above post I must have forgotten this information
The Black Box came first prior to the HPG?
It was used during the Reunification war even 200 kilobytes of information at a go within 100 light years at 10 light years per 24 hours. Though they couldn’t they send multiple transmissions that circumventing the information size restriction?
Was there a chain of Black Boxes established every 100 light years between Terra and the Front Lines during the Reunification War? Thus how many of these could have been built? Also wouldn’t you now want every ship to have a Black Box for communication between the fleet and their respective ground forces?
How many were built? This is Star League after all thus mass production is not beyond the realm of belief.
This therefore should have increased the speed of war and yet didn't?
What this also suggests is the message is sent not in a direct line communication but is sent out to everyone within the sphere with a 100 light year radius.
I would also like to ask with regards to the later models where is the massive power requirements coming from in order to reach these vast distances? Sorry but the later models, in my opinion, are stretching reality a little too far!
Also, if ComStar became aware that the FC were using Black Box technology why didn’t they enter into Anti-Black Box communication technology – effectively making this technology useless in order to maintain their communication monopoly?
I would also like to point out one point – if Black Box technology was decommissioned in 2614 why is a spy on the Hermes using one during the Prinz Eugen Mutiny August 2785? It is an antique a curiosity at best once decommissioned were they all destroyed so where did Kerensky get his?
Did his forces use them during the Amaris War as a communication device?
Also once the Prinz Eugen moves beyond 100 light years there is no way of communicating with Kerensky – also the spy must know the exact location of the Eugen to let Kerensky know where they are as this is a fax machine after all – no triangulation capability – also there is a massive time lag 24 hours per 10 light years distance, therefore when you factor in the time it takes to recharge a ship once they know they are being hunted they could easily have performed multiple jumps to get away ….
So again this is sounding more like wishful thinking that Kerensky was able to re-capture the Eugen …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/19/21 09:09 PM
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if Black Box technology was decommissioned in 2614 why is a spy on the Hermes using one during the Prinz Eugen Mutiny August 2785?
Why would they decommission the Black Boxes in 2614? The Big HPG network only started forming in 2630. There is a 16 year difference that the 2630 was when the first message was sent over the big boys.
100 Light Years is a little over 3 normal jumps.
Now for some numbers. The DC sent the message from Luthien with the black box. Even if they had the latest and greatest black box tech, the signal would never haver reached New Avalon, as the K-3 only had a 500 light year distance. That is less the 17 jumps. The signal would never have reached according to the wiki entry's numbers. The novels always leave out real numbers for a lot of things, but this is supposed to be canon numbers.
The first FedCom improved production model from 3027, it was implemented and used during the Fourth Succession War. It increased the speed and range to twenty-five light-years per day and two hundred light-years respectively.[6]
So this says they started building improved units before the 4th war.
This smells even more fishy.
As the first Draconis Combine built model, the K-1B, from 3041, has a range of two hundred and fifty light-years.[6]
While not completely lax in their encryption protocols, neither the Lyrans nor Suns believed that the Combine had access to their technology, and so many of their messages were intercepted and used against them during the war.[4] ComStar also became aware of the black box technology, and stepped up efforts to target members of the Department of Military Communications,
Black Boxes were apparently unaffected by the events of August 7, 3132.
The fact the DC had them prior to the 3039 war explains a lot, and them being unaffected by the 3132 events suggests comstar could not use their tricks to knock them out.
Not sure if you can block the transmissions or not, but if you can, it might explain why they were not used in the clan invasion. Really changes the way things look.
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Requiem
08/20/21 01:02 AM
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Also, in order for the DC to effectively utilize the Black Box as a listening device they would have to have multiple Devices scattered along their border, similar to a machine gun with overlapping fields of fire, they to would have to be placed with overlapping fields in order to capture all communications sent to their opposite number along the border.
Thus, I would like ask, how long the DC required in order to reverse engineer and mass produce for their own intelligence operating?
Also, if they are able to reverse engineer this piece of Star League era equipment then why couldn’t they reverse engineer Clan Weapons Tech. as each is of extreme military importance?
As for the Clans – They had no reason to believe that the IS had Black Box Technology – Wolf’s Dragoons intelligence reports would have said as much.
Also why would the Clans re-establish an outdated and antiquated communication device and then design a means to jamming it? – as is this not the definition of waste? – in engineering and scientific development – especially when none of Clans utilise such a means of communication.
Thus the only people who are using such a device are the DC and the FC.
Not utilizing them within the Clan invasion is the act of a madman – as it stands the Black Boxes have not been thought through at all as far as I can see. There are just too many unexplained situations that really have not been thought through at all and I am completely disappointed with their use within game.
Changes must be implemented due to the multitude of black holes in their existence.
It is like so many other interesting points in the canon history – a couple of lines then nothing … nothing at all to flesh the story out and see if it is going to lead to a great story …
for example https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nicoletta_Calderon one of the more 'colourful' side stories ... "Nicoletta met personally with Richard Cameron for the second and last time in 2765; her disdain for a man that kept both his sisters bound to incestuous relationships made for a 'colorful' exchange that only infuriated the First Lord and amused the jaded High Council."
Can someone PLEASE flesh this out as it would make for an interesting read - as if you read it that Richard had two sisters who were with the Calderon's in Taurian space then wouldn't they be heirs to the Star League? Or if you accept that His sisters is a typo and should be her sisters can someone say who Nicoletta's sisters are and whom in the family has them - and in an enlightened state such as the Terran Hegemony how is an incestuous relationship tolerated?
So now I have come to the conclusion that, in all probability, the Prinz Eugen and her small fleet should have escaped, even if they had even jumped once away from the fleet - the idea that Kerensky happen to have a spy on board and he/she happed to have access to the navigation data and he / she happed to have access to a 170 year old communication device (and Kerensky back at the fleet also had a second one) and they both happened to be operational at the same time is taking things waaaaaay too far …
If this is believable then the only logical scenario is that Kerensky has had hundreds of these made, prior to the exodus, for EVERY spy on EVERY capital ship in the feet and what this alleges is that he is a stark raving megalomaniac who uses his spies to ensure the peoples compliance as he fears being rejected (just as the Council lords did to him) …. Again!
And I now wonder if mental problems ran in the Kerensky DNA at this stage?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/20/21 01:47 AM)
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ghostrider
08/20/21 12:04 PM
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One major thing that seems to need pointing out is the term decommissioned. This does not mean automatic destruction of the item. It could simply mean not using it as it is considered obsolete. More then a few ships are decommissioned, yet not destroyed. The LC ship used for the museum is one example in the game. There are upgrades and even redesigns that use old hulls. Even today, there is a place were the store things that are no longer used in a desert location. A boneyard or graveyard of sorts.
The reason why this needs to be brought up is the fact that you may not need to build the boxes before the exodus, but just get them out of storage.
It is also possible that the SL 'decommissioned' the Boxes in order to shift them over to their intel department and cause others to breathe easier. The idea that the briefcase carried by some would not be suspected as being the Box.
It would be stupid if WOB ROM agents didn't use the Black box technology on some worlds. Not all worlds had the HPG set up on them. This would also make sense on worlds that Comstar ran the network. It is likely, though possible, that the DC did not inform Comstar about the tech.
Look at the history of rulers in the Feudal times. And that is all I will say on this particular topic.
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Requiem
08/20/21 03:49 PM
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Decommissioned
- to take a ship out of service (remove all weapons etc) and render inactive for military use – thus enable it suitable for civilian use or totally unusable (dismantle).
Given we are discussing a top-secret communication device (and not a ship that can be repurposed for civilian use) – decommissioned (in my opinion) equates to unusable (dismantled) (probably due to the short range and the long lag time of 10 light years equals 24 hours) as in all probability multiple pony express ships (which they have in vast numbers during this Star League era) are far more efficient at this stage in communicating information – they can jump further and send vast amounts of encrypted data via a tight “beam” of information in any specific direction – ie it can point at a specific point on the planet. (Similar to the Mars Rover communicating with earth).
What this demonstrates is that the Black Box – initial model – available to the SLDF is an absolute failure when compared to a pony express ship. The idea that they would be kept in storage for 170 plus years is ridiculous. At best they are a museum curiosity.
The idea that a spy in the far future would be issued with a 170 year old junk communication device that was deemed a failure stagers belief.
Why maintain a communications device that is so inherently flawed for this period of time – too short a range, too long to send the message, and the message is severely limited in size and anyone else with a receiver within range will also receive the message – so any message sent in the clear will be readily readable by them.
As is the pony express ships would have them beat on all of these metrics.
At this stage there can be only one reason why they were used in the far future (that I have thought of so far)
If we refer back to https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Prinz_Eugen_Mutiny in the Notes Section:
“The Prinz Eugen mutiny was instigated to a degree by Nicholas Kerensky, as an early example of his machinations … so that the mutineers could be made an example of.”
This should be replaced with … General Aleksandr Kerensky together with Nicholas Kerensky collude together , they use the old devices (which Aleksandr has kept as an antique for his personal collection) and provide their spy with one so that the mutineers could be made an example of … Aleksandr was loosing control so he happily used these malcontents to enforce his strict control over the fleet by using their apparent flight as an excuse to execute them (by his own son no less) as a means to maintaining control over the fleet – then together with his speech (Hidden Hope) he kept the fleet together on their journey to hell.
This is therefore a very dark and very unethical by both Aleksandr and Nicholas … which can also be used as an explanation of why Nicholas created the Clans … he used the example that his father taught him during the Prinz Eugen Mutiny to take control by force / fear and murder! Which can again be seen during the Wolverine Incident – set up one group for termination – so the remainder will be kowtowed into obeying the ruler (Nicholas) ….
As it was not only Nicholas who had machinations towards power it was also his father Aleksandr.
In the far future however – in the absence of pony express ships due to the limited number of ships and ComStar’s monopoly of the HPG grid – the Black box can be used despite its obvious flaws (hence the research into upgrading its capabilities) it is no longer seen as junk and worthless it is now seen as a real alternative to the HPG grid.
Also by the time WOB ROM every habitat world would have a HPG and unless they too have initiated massive R&D into the Black Box the original will require a massive chain of boxes to get message from A to B and this will require a massive amount of time – so in all reality would it be worth it?
The DC would never let ComStar Know they have a Black Box for the same reason the FC wouldn’t do so.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/20/21 05:24 PM
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I think you missed a few things with the Black Box verses the pony express. First of you can send multiple messages per day. I did not see anything that said you can't send more then one message in an hour. It just says you are limited to the amount of data per message.
Second off, the use of ships is far more expensive. Granted, it is very possible that those ships are going to the destination of the box, but how many ships are you going to tie up to do so? Potentially one week per ship, two if they have the batteries. Sooner or later, you will be stuck with dealing with jump drive recharge time. Yes, hot loading is possible, but would you really want to risk it? The ship you might wipe out the drive in doing so, may well be your primary warship.
Once the large HPGs were set up, the box would take a second place to it. But the HPG network was not quick to be set up. The pony express lanes would be first, then followed by others. The box is still the best solution for ground units needing to make reports.
Another issue is having to have jump vessels in every system. How long do you wait before jumping out with the message bundle? With a few exceptions, people will notice a jump vessel just sitting there.
Morass code it still used despite being relatively old. The fact that the Box is probably the ONLY means of contact outside of a system would be a big factor in it still being used. I do agree that if left without maintenance, it might not work, but I doubt the Box was really decommissioned. Public statements saying it isn't the same as actually doing it. And even then, I don't think the SL would state they even had them, unless everyone knew they did.
Granted the print does say they did, but I believe this to be against logic.
Also, it is very possible that criminals as well as rebels would have started using the device. Send normally coded message for things like come to Tharkad on the 10th. Small messages just to organize. Gibberish to anyone that doesn't know the code.
I don't think that even the at the height of the SL, they had every world covered with an HPG. Not counting the periphery, where they would have limited them to specific base worlds for the SL, a lot of smaller worlds may not have been covered by the HPG. Regular shipments would probably serve as a carrier for them.
This also means that a lot of systems would have multiple colonies in them, such as asteroid mining bases while in Sol. Terra might have it, but not the others. Then again, even the main world may not have one.
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Requiem
08/21/21 01:25 AM
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Quote:
I think you missed a few things with Black Box versus pony express
Black Box
Range 100 light years
Duration 10 light years every 24 hours – thus at 100 light years 10 days or 240 hours
Data packet – 200 Kilobytes
Text Message Only as it is only a fax machine.
Pony Express – with multiple ships (command circuit)
Time taken to receive information at jump point then Jump - send information packet to second ship and for that second ship to Jump etc
Time to reach 100 light years – far less than 10 days!
Unlimited size of Data Packet and more than one data packet can be sent …
Will be able to include Audio and Visual Files to reinforce the message …
So, no I do not believe I have – in an era where there should be a massive number of pre-existing pony express ships to enable swift communication within each Great House the Black Box is a very poor substitute.
ie. you cannot have one ship making multiple jumps with massive time lags due to recharging the battery – just like the pony express of old when one rider made it to a staging post, they would hand it off to the next rider and so on and so forth until it reached its destination in the quickest amount of time.
A pony express ship may be moor expensive in monetary terms – and yet when it comes to time as a means of currency in war the Pony express is way more cost effective than the Black Box – messages must reach the front lines as quickly as possible and when you have ‘a multiple pony expresses’ linked into a command circuit this is absolutely the most efficient means of delivering any message for this time-period.
The pony express command circuit is the only way forward in this era.
These pony ships would be the size of a bug-eye and given the vastness of space – good luck in finding it at any jump-point! This is similar to finding one grain of sand on a beach!
Quote:
Also, it is very possible that criminals as well as rebels would have started using the device.
First why would the military let civilians know of such devices as if there are pre-set frequencies the amount of overlapping messages could make their use obsolete as now the people at the end are only receiving gibberish due to the number of people using them at a single point on time.
Problem is that they have pre-set frequencies – so any police units equipped with them can receive the message – then it is just a matter of how good your cryptologists are …
So unless these Black Boxes were first uses in the civil sector prior to being used in the military (like the enigma) then I doubt anyone would ever let their existence known.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator
“By the time of Stefan Amaris’ coup, the Star League Communication Network (SLCOMNET) was at its peak, linking every single inhabited world throughout the Inner Sphere and Periphery, backed up by mobile transmitters aboard many official Terran Hegemony civil-service and military JumpShips and WarShips.”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/21 02:33 AM
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First why would the military let civilians know of such devices
so any police units equipped with them can receive the message
The second statement didn't answer the first? Also, people do retire from the military, so it isn't like the SL did mind wipes. Third, there is always someone in the civilian sector that seems to be part of projects, like making the boxes.
And one that can not be overlooked is some in the military brag to their buddies outside the military about things.
The SL could well have decommissioned crate loads of the boxes, but didn't know that the units inside were not what they thought they were. Black market profiteers do exist in the military, as well as the standard replace the real thing with a fake case. It is not likely the people destroying them by the crate load will check every single unit to make sure it is the box. Most would see the packing slip and leave it at that. The com boxes are easier to conceal then say an ERLL.
I know the game lacks logic in major ways, but something like this would not remain the simple concept that the first series sets. It is possible that the box was captured by enemy agents, which is why it was sent to be decommissioned. I find it unlikely the SL scientists and techs couldn't find a way to encrypt and change things so they could continue to use them before the HPG came out. I will say this is more conjecture then fact.
So unless these Black Boxes were first uses in the civil sector prior to being used in the military (like the enigma) then I doubt anyone would ever let their existence known.
Funny irony here. It may well have been something of a toy from an inventor that set up the whole concept of the black box and HPG afterwards. It isn't like it hasn't happened in the past. The walkie talkie was public, while the military had refined theirs.
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Requiem
08/21/21 04:13 AM
124.184.134.200
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Exactly, 1st the military should never let such a device become commonplace and 2nd if they did then the device has some serious limitations that even criminal organization would find difficult. Unless the two worlds they were on were less than 100 light years apart – and we hope the police do not have one on the same frequency and are investigating …
As for people – how many secrets were kept by those who went through them in WW2 when they were told not to ever discuss them – many kept them until they were approached 50 years after the event by an academic who had worked it all out and by then they too had finally decided to let go and relented when making a documentary …
So the problem is, yes they may have told some people, and yet how many of them reported in a syndicated newsfeed that was virtually nation wide so that everyone knew of its existence? And even if they did …. like enigma … all that probably ever came of it was a movie (that distorted reality) and a museum based upon the SLDF’s Reunification War on Terra where they were kept as an oddity.
Then along comes Kerensky and he decides to take the museum with him, and then the rest is history …
Yes, I agree some may have been sold off – but again if they are rare, then they are expensive, thus the private collector and the private museum.
And yes, periphery agents could have captured them – but again why didn’t these Periphery realms then reverse engineer them for their own use? That is that they too thought of them as a useless long-term project.
As they never made a splash in history it can be said, with some degree of certainty, they never made it to the consumer / military market in mass numbers.
The reason it was decommissioned is that the pony-express can be said to have outperformed them – then when the HPG finally came along it would finally outperformed the pony express – hence the pony express was decommissioned – and in this case I would like to ask where are all the private yachts made from decommissioned pony express ships?
A private small very comfortable Jump-ship for the mega wealthy, something like you see on all the films where the bad guy has a mega yacht and the good guy has get on board …..
So can someone look at recommissioning a bug-eye into a super uber luxury yacht for the uber wealthy …
Yes, I agree there is some irony here
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/21 12:12 PM
45.51.181.83
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And yes, periphery agents could have captured them – but again why didn’t these Periphery realms then reverse engineer them for their own use? That is that they too thought of them as a useless long-term project.
Lots of what ifs come up. Maybe the periphery did reverse engineer them, and this is why the fight went wrong. The fact the enemy did have access to their own reports and orders gave the rebels the ability to fight beyond what they should have been capable of. Actually, this can be made canon, as I believe Katrina found the stash of them in the old RWR areas when running from her uncle. This also may explain how Amaris did better then you think. Spies and coding would still allow the SL intel department access to HPGs in the TH area. Getting secret orders out without using jumpships might well have been with the boxes.
Cost is important, but for the big crime bosses, they have even gotten ahold of dropships and mechs. Hell, some of them may well have been buying from the dirty quartermasters and distributing them. It is unlikely that someone that took a box with them when they left the military then fell on hard times is going to offer to sell it to anyone that might inform law officials.
The reason it was decommissioned is that the pony-express can be said to have outperformed them
A simple question comes up with this. If this is true, why bother with mass production of the boxes? Yes, they were a step towards the HPG network, but they could not have known that at the time. I would suspect orders were by jumpships carriers before the boxes were made. So why bother with making them outside of possible intel uses?
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Requiem
08/21/21 08:25 PM
124.184.134.200
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Yes, I agree there are lots of what ifs come up.
And yes, maybe the periphery did reverse engineer them and they did use this knowledge to prolong the Reunification war – just as Enigma / Ultra enabled the allies to reduce the time of the war.
However, at the time of Amaris all traffic is going through the HPG – so unless Kerensky and the SLDF reverts-back to Black Box technology, then there is now way for Amaris’ spies to pick up on this, and then subsequently use their own Black Boxes against the SLDF.
And yes Katrina did find the Black Boxes whist on the run from her uncle – problem is this story was never fleshed out – despite how many pleaded for the story from TPTB.
Suggest looking up – John Anthony Walker Jr – convicted of spying for Russia – this could be used as the basis of a story / plot re selling information and material to organised crime.
Quote:
A simple question comes up with this. If this is true, why bother with mass production of the boxes?
Simple answer is they were never mass produced as we would take the term to mean. During the Reunification War a trial unit (maybe a couple hundred boxes) were manufactured and distributed in order to evaluate the efficiency / effectiveness of this new technology in a real war environment – what they discovered at the time is that the current model, as is, was just not efficient as it should have been – hence it was ultimately decommissioned rather than ordered to evaluate whether the Black Box technology could be improved upon.
At this point you have got to wonder what could have been if you mix a Black box with a HPG.
prior to Black box was the pony express - civilian and military or one in the same?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/21 08:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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The boxes were some of the best ways for spies to contact other systems at the time. Being undercover for a long time means not drawing attention to you. Even with drop boxes, you can give yourself away, or a fellow agent. Until the boxes were better known, you could send the messages without blowing your cover. The quick burst, if you were smart enough not to send it at the same time every day, would be enough to make it look like just back ground noise.
And if the actual unit works as a normal fax machine, then this covers itself. I would think having a special codeword needed to gain access to the HPG part of it would be standard, without having a prompt asking for it. Much like a cheat code for console games.
Given the fact that sending things along civilian means has been done throughout history, it would still be used in the future. With the thumb drive today, you could send a lot of information along, and the device used to receive and send messages wouldn't have to be HPG size. Something like a phone would be larger then needed. Once installed, you wouldn't have to touch it again, as you could charge it with simple WIFI. So it is very possible some ships still around from that time frame could have those very units still working. Just no one sending the code to access them. Even the builders may not know they are there. A small plate to square out a corner in the wing could be used to cover the device.
Technically, the black box is an hpg. Speed and size of what can be sent is the main difference. You are talking about sending a message light years from your point of origin. It may take 24 hours/10 light years, but it is far faster then light speed.
So less then a day to get it to closest system to Sol. I would imagine this is better then using normal coms to talk to a jumpship ready to take the messages out of system. Not all systems are the max jump from each other. It is not the ultimate for long range, but very useful when secrecy is needed.
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Requiem
08/21/21 09:35 PM
124.184.134.200
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Quote:
The boxes were some of the best ways for spies to contact other systems at the time.
As long as the range requirement and lag time was not a factor.
So yes, this is where a mix of HPG / Blac Box should have been considered. Problem is such technology would make ComStar obsolete overnight.
The machine itself would be accessible with any lock you would like to put on it – the message also would have to heavily encrypted, just in case, someone can intercept the message.
The original model Vs a couple of hundred years development can make for a very interesting machine.
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I would imagine this is better then using normal coms to talk to a jumpship ready to take the messages out of system
At 200Kb per message and only text is allowed – no audio and no visual and no computer anything – just text on paper that is scanned and sent (consider it as a small text message). Very limited when you consider that the Star League is a high tech wonderland – it must have been very demoralizing for every techy individual who used high tech every day to be so limited to just plain text.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/22/21 03:21 AM
45.51.181.83
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Just having a fax machine in the future would be low tech.
But then before the HPG came out, this was the only way to contact other systems without using jumpships.
Demoralizing isn't something I would say. Just text is far better then just memory, as sometimes plans change. It is better to ask a stupid question then make a stupid mistake.
Something like corporate has found out the building will need extra reinforcements because of poor soil. No jumpships are available to head into that system. Without an HPG, both before they came out and even afterwards, as the system doesn't have enough pop to require one, the box would be perfect. Without giving away a secret location, simple information like the shipment is coming in next week on such and such day, means anything else is considered a hostile ship. Without some means of detecting the box, this would be a very secure way of sending information without having risking interception.
Comstar's monopoly on the comes should have never happened. Where it is true that having neutral coms with the enemy is good, the houses should have had their own network running, at least to important worlds. This tech should not have disappeared, given all the sources they had to keep it alive. A few smaller units in say the Fox's Den would be required. I can see manufacturing having issues as they would be bombed into rubble, but the HQ of the FS would be safe for an HPG set up, made and run by the FS.
Technically, the Black Boxes did make an interesting machine. The HPG units could be said to have been inspired by the boxes at least. It may well be the tech to make the boxes is the basis for the HPG. More power and an antenna can make a huge difference is the Box.
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Requiem
08/22/21 06:34 AM
124.184.134.200
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Unfortunately, the box was deemed not worth the effort – from a military point of view, and if it ever reached the consumer market it was also deemed unviable and finally from the point of view of the scientific / engineering community who also viewed it as an anomaly that was not worth the effort for additional research and development.
What could have happened if the Black Box – Fax Machine had received additional research and development? Similar to the evolution of the mobile phone?
Black Box – each time range increases / duration decreases / data package increases
– Military Fax
– Consumer Fax
– Growth of the feature Black Box
– Test message gives way to allow electronic camera images
– Advent of video message becomes possible (4G)
– additional built in features superior data speed / reliability etc. (5G)
Now all that is required is a realistic timeline …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/22/21 12:34 PM
45.51.181.83
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The fact that faxes can send images shows they did not want the box to be mainstream communications. It is difficult to track down usage of it, meaning they could not shut off coms to a world by shutting down the HPGs. Yes, Jumpships can carry messages, but those forms of communications were easier to trace.
It is also possible they kept the data transfer to a minimal to avoid longer bursts for tracking reasons.
So I don't believe it was tech issues that prevented them being in the game, but more of the developers didn't want them.
The question of why would I use the HPG network if all I am doing is sending a happy birthday wish to family in a different system? This is also a way to send out information so the main government wouldn't know about it. It removes some of the importance of the HPG network. More secure, faster, larger transmissions would make it even more important to resistances.
And with this, it leads to the question of why the HPG was so large? The entire transmitter does not have to be that big, and with the Mobile ones, it isn't. I don't know if range was changed on the smaller versions, but this leads to the whole why so large question.
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Requiem
08/22/21 03:28 PM
124.184.134.200
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HPGs allow for corporations to make massive money – they also provide the government a means of oversight when it comes to communication.
Black Boxes – does neither – one you have the box and a frequency your opposite and you can send and receive as much as you want within its text / time limitations
Perhaps it was greed and the government’s ability to vet all communication as a reason why the Black Box program was shut down.
Perhaps the government was scared of loosing control over communication.
Quote:
why the HPG was so large?
Rather then sending a missive in a spherical direction – the HPG directs them message at a particular target, and rather than one text message the HPG allows for a massive number of individual messages (of any variety, text to videos) to be combined and sent.
Apparently, sending anything other than one plain text message requires a massive energy and a massive dish to accomplish.
One further point – K-4 series can send 4 megabytes of data - depending on how much each character takes up, singe spaced vs double spaced page, and font.
On average …. Single spaced – it will take about 250 pages of text to equate to one megabyte and double spaced about 500 pages to equal one megabyte.
So the idea that the K-5 and k-6 can only send 35 pages and 50 pages of text seems a little off …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/22/21 06:35 PM
45.51.181.83
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Where does it say that the smaller HPG units, like the ones installed on warships, had a limited range or amount they could send?
Which again asks why the standard ones in use in the IS in the 3000 era were bigger then houses?
Putting as small dish transmitter on a unit should solve the spherical data sending. Granted, the tighter the beam sent, the more targeting the world you want is required.
This also supports the concept that sending ship to ship messages when those ships are not at a jump point, makes it that much more likely the message will not be received. You could be anywhere in a system when a message was sent. So even the large HPG units were not as specific as you would think. Yes, they would have a more standard receiver in a set location, but there would still be some need for area of effect for the messages to be received properly. It can't be like a laser beam and hit one specific location. Otherwise, you could just put something over the dish to prevent anything from coming it, or possibly being sent out.
This would mean attacks on the dishes that do not affect the HPG mechanisms and electronics themselves, would be very common.
And with the later models, the FC DID start limiting the direction of transmission, so that counteracts the sending all directions. The SL had to have been able to deal with the issues. But once the HPG came out, I can see them wanting all coms to go thru SL controlled com stations. But this still does not answer the 16 year gap between decommissioning the boxes that the first transmission with the big units.
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Requiem
08/22/21 10:52 PM
124.184.134.200
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator
the maximum range of an HPG pulse is 50 light years
Each pulse can carry terabytes of compressed information, everything from simple text to books and video.
On average the time for transmission of a non-priority message between Terra and Tharkad takes about a week
The fixed planetary networks in both the Inner Sphere and Clan space are also bolstered by portable transmitters aboard a small number of JumpShips and WarShips as well as message "buoys", allowing messages to traverse the gaps in and between each network.
Mobile HPGs
The most common form of mobile HPG is the 50-ton model, introduced in 2655, is installed upon large spacecraft, such as JumpShips and WarShips; an even smaller 12-ton ground-mobile model, designed for transport by ground vehicles or BattleMechs, was developed in 2751.
There is no mention of reduced range or a decrease amount of data for the mobile HPG – thus they should be able to transmit as per standard HPG.
In my opinion if you are going to have a HPGs in ships as well as HPG network on planet. Then the ones on planet MUST have both dish and Black Box – transmitters
To send messages both directly to an adjacent world using the dish and to the warship that could be who knows where via a black box spherical message system. Thus you can blanket an entire region with messages quickly to ensure all (or most) of the warships receive information packs asap.
The 16 year gap year was just the SLDF admitting the Black box was a failure and just reverting back to the more reliable pony express system.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/21 02:51 PM
45.51.181.83
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A thought came up dealing with the clans and their sibkos had they taken Terra as originally planned. The amount of worlds would have been to much for the invading clans to cover from each other, much less dealing with homeworld clans trying to take them as well as the houses hitting the clans to try and reclaim their worlds.
Would the clans have upped the numbers of trueborn warriors to try and protect them all? Would they have moved like the Bears did?
Would they have to try and take the entire IS, as they could not even try to hold against the IS once the clans had worlds to attack almost constantly?
Would the eventual thought come down to having to remove the IS ability to make jumpships in order to stop the houses from attacking them?
Would they increase the numbers of warships they had in order to discourage attacks on their worlds? Not challenges but the typical hit without warning that the IS was famous for.
Would the houses eventually gather enough warships to begin to challenge the clans? This is sketchy as Comstar was the original source for drives, which means the IS would have to start building them on their own.
Given the arraignment of the truce battle, would Comstar have actually complied? Would WOB had struck out against the clans at that point?
Would the IS be forced to take the HPGs in their areas to avoid them being used by the clans to gain intel on the houses? Would the the FC and DC give the box technology to the FWL/CC? Or would they leave them to deal with the clans owning the HPG? Would WOB contest the clans running the HPGs? This would also leave the question of would the clans invade the FWL/CC to take control of the HPG network entirely? Which also means would they eventually strike the periphery states to do to same?
Would the clans hit the periphery since it was their rebellion that allowed Amaris's plan to work?
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Requiem
08/25/21 06:25 PM
1.158.137.81
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Upping the number of True born – requires 15 years minimum for the children to mature into warriors – then there is the question of how many test out from the original sibko number.
Then there is logistics – do the clans have a military industrial capabilities large enough to manufacture all the weapon systems available for the military you are suggesting – in all reality I would say no.
The Clans CANNOT take all of the Inner Sphere – They do not have the population – there are many worlds throughout the IS that have a population in excess of the ENTIRE CLANS. This is why the idea the clans can expand their realms as large as they have by the il-clan arc becomes ludicrous. But I am not surprised the entirety of the arcs post 3039 (and many prior to this) are lost in their conceptual believability – they were never thought through on any level.
Once Jump-ships become a target in the game – you are once more back to 1st succession war brutality on steroids. It will also shift the game – Navy all the way.
It would also necessitate all Jump-ship manufacturers to re-build their facilities in hidden systems – it will also necessitate explorer corps to hunt for the Clan Home Worlds – and once found I would not put it past the IS leaders at the time to order the complete and utter genocide of every person on every world just as they did with the Master in the Jihad era.
So, this arc becomes sick and twisted beyond all others – still want to go down this path?
No amount of warships can stop this vengeance!
As for the IS – as stated many times – they would have to band together and pour all of their remaining production into warship (and nuclear / biological Weapon development) as well as very fast dropships – bomber class – who’s sole purpose is to get above a world and seed it with enough nuclear and biological material so as to render it a dead world shortly thereafter.
It then comes down to a race as to who can manufacture the most in least amount of time!
So again want to go down this sick path just as the jihad era did?
And yes the WOB would be let off their leash and told it was now a holy crusade to kill every clan that does not become a part of the Star League! So you though what they did during the jihad arc was evil, just wait this will be infinitely worse!
As for the HPGs – why bother the Clans should have them in all of their warships to begin with.
The real question is do they have the forces in numbers to even reach the FWL / CC – as by then who knows how much damage is caused to the IS new SLDF and the Clans
The game now has become a total nightmare and most sane people have abandoned it …
As hidden fleets roam the galaxy in search of their enemy, civilian or military, to destroy them in a fire …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/30/21 04:36 PM
45.51.181.83
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Anyone else have any thoughts on the questions posed?
Even the questions of how the IS lost the HPG capabilities, especially with the retcon of the mobile HPG units. The fact these were small and I did not see any limitations for them over the big antenna ones, makes me wonder why the big dishes became so popular with Comstar. Is it because they can't be moved, so stealing them isn't an issue?
The 16 year gap between the end of the black boxes and the starting of the dish HPGs is something else that could use some input on why this would happen. Forgetting military needs, simple requests from planets, especially corporations to their branches would have kept this alive, if the military couldn't keep it from the public.
This would be especially true for a jumpship that broke down outside the normal transportation lanes.
Edited by ghostrider (08/30/21 04:37 PM)
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ghostrider
09/02/21 10:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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The thought of the FWL and the lack of PPCs came to mind.
Was there some joke intended when the developers made the FWL the manufacturers of the Awe-8q and the Goliath with the PPC issues?
Looking in the older books to see the FWL only produced around 500 mechs a year with only 30 or so being assault mechs got me to thinking of this issue. I can understand the lack keeping those numbers low, but this sounds artificial even for the game.
Until the video games came out with the variants of the Awesome, I really didn't pay attention to anything but the 8q. The numbers of them in the IS suggests a different story as well.
I was wondering what I missed in this.
Was there a specific campaign to wipe out all PPC makers in the FWL? I know all factories are targeted from time to time, but this seems really odd.
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ghostrider
09/03/21 08:46 PM
45.51.181.83
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The idea of the 3025 mechs being SL era units downgraded, while the very units they find in caches are the exact same things makes me wonder if those units were just SL models, and that the houses had their own ones, but those factories making them didn't survive.
As we know, the original SL did have manufacturing plants scattered around the IS, and there are very few exclusive units to the houses, it sounds a bit odd that they would have the same base models available to all. As I stated in the past, the idea that the SL had the same models with advanced gear, this would fit.
Either that, or the houses bought almost every mech from SL manufacturers.
The game says the SL mechs were just plain better then 3025 models, so how can this be if they are the same thing?
The same could be said for aerofighters as well to an extent.
It also leads to questions about dropships as well. I doubt very much the 3025 era ones were the same exact build as the ones they used to hit the Periphery then Amaris with. Pocket warships was discussed in other threads, so I will leave them out for now.
Even vehicles, such as the Von Luckner were SL era tanks which seem weak compared to the legends.
I know cost would limit some things, but in order to be the leader of the IS, just having the tech without deploying it doesn't cut it.
Unless they expected their warships to hold back the tide.
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ghostrider
09/24/21 09:32 PM
45.51.181.83
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Recently, it occurred to me that the DC had a working Stinger LAM factory, yet no where in the TO&E of the DCMS did they list the LAM being part of any units.
Does anyone have any lists that I missed or did TPTB just ignore the factory entirely?
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Karagin
09/25/21 12:03 AM
70.118.172.64
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They did have one on Irece right up till either the Bears or Cats razed it to the ground.
Now having one and having the pilots etc..yeah not always the same thing. They have the ability but not the skill to use them, or they found while great for some things the LAMs are too fragile for combat and thus their limited recon/scout niche isn't worth the expending of resources beyond making enough to sell to the Gaikoku hito who want to waste things, etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/25/21 12:21 AM
45.51.181.83
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It would make sense to use it either as a mech or a fighter, if nothing else. The fact that Comstars deal with the 3039 war suggested the DC was running short on units would mean they would be forced to use what ever they had. There is nothing saying they had to be used as LAMs.
It was just a thought that came up.
Another question would be that if the LAMs were so poor, why not convert it into a factory that made something better, even if just a Stinger Factory.
And a thought came to mind about the SDS system and Kerensky taking down Amaris.
Could the time delay have been so the planets that had the SDS components on them, were given time to be at the maximum distance from each other, so as to give Kerensky time to deal with each without being overwhelemed?
As the wiki says, it was not just dropships or stations, but ground batteries along with the drones and such that were part of the same system. Given time for worlds they were stationed at, may well have prevented more casualties then hitting those systems when they are all clumped together.
This is just another thought that doesn't have anything canon to suggest one way or another.
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Karagin
09/25/21 01:50 AM
70.118.172.64
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They knew folks would buy the parts and or whole working mechs. Given that monkeying with the factory, prior to the Helm and CS help, would not be something they would want to do. It could go wrong and then nothing could be made there. So, they would just keep making what it makes, because some of the stuff meant spare parts for their own Stinger mechs as well as hard cash on the open markets.
The SDS (Space Defense System) network most likely had many planets that had some parts of the network like one might have ground batteries, while another might have only the space-borne systems. I think it depended on the importance of the world from all levels as to what scale of the network they had or got.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
09/26/21 07:36 PM
68.169.149.5
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The factory you guys are talking about is LexaTech: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/LexaTech_Industries
The Nova Cats captured the factory intact (Objective Raids p64), but later razed it because it constructed what they felt were abominations as LAMs had long since fallen out of favor with the Clans.
Its my understanding the factory had very small output even before the Clans arrived, turning out less new Stinger LAMs than the Draconis Combine had been losing over the last two centuries (i.e., less than 10 a year.) Still, LAMs are highly useful as scouts, so the Combine may have never wanted to replace it with something else that provided less value (like regular Stingers.) It was also producing spare parts for both Stinger LAMs and the few Phoenix Hawk and Wasp LAMs still around, and few, if any, other factories in the Inner Sphere were doing this by 3050. So it had high value, even if little overall impact.
Given the Nova Cat's actions and the general waste-not approach by the Clans, either the LAMs greatly offended them or the factory wasn't worth converting to something the Nova Cats could use (or the likely combination of both). I think the factory was in really bad shape and that helps explain its low output. But it could create spare parts to keep existing units working, even if it couldn't put enough new units into the field. The Nova Cats had no use for the mechs or the spare parts, and apparently not worth the trouble of refurbishing it, so they just wiped it out.
Its also my belief, though I've no canon evidence to back it up, that parts from this factory helped House Marik refit Wasp LAMs to the WSP-105M config in 3024, through Concord of Kapteyn arrangements. Marik had the LAMs, Kurita had the parts, and the intro year is spot-on.
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ghostrider
09/26/21 09:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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Given the fact that clan warriors do not share control of units like fighters or mechs, and they are not trained in both, the idea of the LAM is completely against their teachings. This somewhat explains the clans dislike to hatred of the units.
The big thing I was looking at is the lack of any listings for the DCMS having a Stinger LAM in any units. Not even suggesting the ISF had pilots trained in them for stealth insertion and retraction from worlds. And the time frame of before the clans came in is when I was thinking.
And with the information suggested that the DCMS was losing LAMs over the years, but the listings I have seen, never had LAMs listed is why I asked.
The fact that they can be used in Achilles and Intruder dropships, launch and land in fighter mode, would make them great for recon. I understand upgrading them would be difficult for some part, but before 3040 that isn't much of an issue anyways.
I am not aware of the parts being used in the Phoenix Hawk LAMs, as they are almost completely different to each other, but the Wasp LAM would be close enough.
I can see that TPTB would want to remove the unit due to the lawsuits, but they should have done something like had the factory breakdown/sabotage to stop production for a while, only to have it fixed later in the storyline.
It just seems like they forgot it existed when it came to TO&Es for units.
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Wick
09/27/21 04:57 PM
68.169.149.5
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LAMs were already pretty rare by 3025, became even rarer during the 4th Succession War, and all but extinct by the Clan Invasion. By 3059, only the WOB retains a few (10 by my count, which shrinks to just 4 in 3076 before new LAMs are introduced in 3077.)
You've got some LAMs listed on the TO&Es of some merc groups, like Wolf's Dragoons who have six in 3030, but they are such a small component of the larger House Militaries that they'd never show up on a RAT table. My guesswork for the military makeup of each House in 3050 results in 6 LAMs for AFFS, 2 for CCAF, 45 for DCMS, 4 for FWLM, and 17 for LCAF. Even amongst the DCMS, this is 0.4% of their mech makeup, or 2.8% of their fighter complement, depending how you'd want to assign them. Potentially a 12 on a fighter roll, but much too rare to be discussed in terms of mechs (which is where most militaries put them.)
The ComGuard also has 60 pre-Tukkayid. This would represent about 1.1% of their mech forces. (The SLDF ran around around 3.2% LAMs.)
I like the idea of ISF or other "commandos" using LAMs as insertion/extraction craft as they provide powered descent like a fighter but can land anywhere rather than on dedicated runways. If I was running the show, folks like the ISF or Rabid Foxes is exactly who I'd wish to reserve my few LAMs for in the 3030-3050 timeframe. I don't know of any reason why this couldn't be true, if you were to write fiction about it. They just haven't devoted many paragraphs to the concept of LAMs in most material. With a few exceptions to some combat vehicles, you don't read much about special-forces-specific units. In TRO:3025, the special forces of each House weren't really a well-defined concept yet; by the time they were defined (post-Clan Invasion), LAMs were effectively extinct as part of the writing out of anything that potentially violated copyrights. I think this goes a long way to explain why you may not have read anything about them being used by the ISF, though they very well could have been, especailly after becoming Reseen.
As far as actual examples of DCMS unit with LAMs, Clay Moretti of Sorenson's Sabres flies a Phoenix Hawk LAM PHX-HK2 in 3026. (Sorenson's Sabres scenario book, p25.) Tai-i Mandrake Matherson of the Twelfth Dieron Regulars’ Special Air Lance pilots a customized Wasp LAM WSP-105 per TRO:3085 p296. He commands a 4 LAM unit 3028-3040. So that's five LAMs across those two sources. Whether found in TO&Es or not, those five at least are canonized.
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ghostrider
09/27/21 06:20 PM
45.51.181.83
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Ok. I stand corrected. The Sabres did have a Phoenix Hawk LAM in it. I don't have the TRO 3085, but I will take your word for it. Stupid thing is, I had the Sabres book and missed that.
I would try to use the excuse of not reading the book for a while, but that is a cop out.
I would think the LAMs would make a great example of something that should have Stealth armor on them. Double sinks would work well with this, so no problems with heat.
Thanks for the info.
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Wick
09/27/21 06:54 PM
68.169.149.5
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Admittedly, I got lucky with the Sabres book. Its the only one I could think of off my head that is a Draconis Combine unit book, and despite only 12 units one of them turned out to be a LAM (LAMs were a popular thing in these early pre-Unseen scenario books.)
The TRO:3085 entry is something I had written on my list of Missing-in-MUL (with a note it should have Draconis Combine and Unique tags for Renaissance era). I thought it was just one mech but reread it to see it named four LAMs in the 12th Dieron's unit. (Doesn't say what the other three are, but likely Stinger LAMs.)
Special types of armor are forbidden on LAMs. Or at least, Ferro-Fibrous explicitly is (as is Endo Steel structure.) The bulkier size of these items prohibit the conversion. Stealth probably fits this bill. TechManual doesn't say one way or the other, but does describe Stealth Armor as "about as bulky as ferro-fibrous armor" (p206) so I'd suggest this is enough to doom its possibility of being used on LAMs. You'd have to ask CGL for an official ruling though.
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Karagin
09/27/21 08:33 PM
70.118.172.64
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I still see them using the plant for parts and supplying spares to Marik etc..for hard cash and other materials they need. Which would make sense given that they didn't really use the LAMs.
LAMs are fun, but clumsy in the game mainly because of the rules governing them. I found that Airmech mode is way over the top as far as the movement goes and makes them very munchy, or as a buddy said back in the day, "If I wanted to play Robotech, I would be still be drinking while doing the Palladium math". He wasn't a fan of the LAMs as a whole.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
09/30/21 05:29 PM
68.169.149.5
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I always thought the LAMs were excellent for roleplaying purposes, but lousy for tabletop. Aerospace and conventional fighters also don't quite work right on tabletop either. In my opinion LAMs were effectively equivalent to a Boomerang Spotter Plane. You get good recon out of them, but best to leave them behind while the rest of the company does the fighting.
FASA couldn't ever reach a happy medium with them, and with the unseen lawsuit over their heads quietly wrote them out. Didn't miss them. LAMs should have remained dead but Jihad silliness unnecessarily brought them back into play.
That said, I have long had an idea for an early Cloud Cobra totem mech being a LAM named Wadjet. This would be 2830s or so: when SLDF tactics were still in play for some of the Clans and before the breeding protocols kind of made LAMs a dicey subject. It just matches up perfectly with Wadjet being the Egyptian cobra goddess, the Cloud Cobras adopting a lot of Egyptian mythology in their culture, Cloud Cobra being a heavy fighter user, and even the "jet" part of the name. It almost writes itself.
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ghostrider
09/30/21 08:26 PM
45.51.181.83
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Don't see why you couldn't do something with the Cloud Cobras. Might even be able to have it in the modern age as well, though that might be a bit more problematic.
Since the changed so many rules for things, and 'fixed' so many issues with failed mechs, the idea of a heavy mech being a LAM isn't that far fetched. There are a few that look like they would make a great set up for one. The Catapult is one that would really need to have the conversion gear, and look like a blocky LAM with the LRM pods. It has the Jumpjets, so that isn't something out of place. Granted, the 'wings' might be too small to provide lift, as it has no arms, so that might be an issue. The Crusader-L is the picture of an armored veritech, so there is another one.
The introduction of the Super Heavy units destroyed the top end weight for a lot of units, so there isn't much to prevent it.
Of course a successful run of a Clan LAM might well be WHY the clans hate them so much. A 'sneak' raid might have been done to destroy the factory that made it. As fighters can be part of a bid, it would really screw up a challenge if LAMs were deployed in mech mode. And I don't believe the fragile issues with them. Yes, they have more working things that can break, but they are heavier then their counterparts, ie the Stinger and Wasp LAM are 25 tons, not 20.
Used correctly, they are just as valuable as normal mechs or fighters.
Then again, they might have gone extinct when the advanced components like the XL engine, endo steel, and Ferrous armor become that much more popular. Couldn't get around the issues of conversion with the extra critical space needed.
I would suggest a home rule that would allow you to kick with a AIr-mech mode unit while in flight. Basically destroy your leg in order to slam into the punch table hit locations with added force. Not gravity generated, but full thrust from the jets pushing the unit forward.
Or if you want to be nice, do a standard roll to see if you damage the legs at a penalty.
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Wick
09/30/21 09:31 PM
68.169.149.5
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No, my idea for Wadjet would be medium class. I'd keep all the existing rules, it would just be Clan-tech rather than Inner Sphere-based. Though because LAMs are restricted to standard skeletons, armor and engines anyhow, this means only the weapons would be uniquely Clan-grade. Clan totems need not be heavy or assault-class (Mandrill comes to mind as an early light-weight totem.) I'd probably go 40 or 45 tons simply because the Phoenix Hawk LAM was already at the top of the scale.
I'd also want to respect the fact that LAMs become detestable to the Clans at some point. I've never seen any exact point in time this occurs though. Unofficially, it seems to be at the point the Clans form circa 2807. But at this point in time, all the Warriors would have been trained in SLDF tactics which includes a significant amount of LAMs. New forms of honorable warfare in the form of zellbrigin don't develop until later (and generally not strongly until post-Klondike.) More officially its described to have occurred by the time the geneticists started breeding specific MechWarrior and Aerospace lines, which is around the 2850s and 2860s. (The stories behind Clans bidding against each other for Elemental protocols in the 2860s and 2870s indicates genetic dissimilarity still isn't firmly established by this point.) So I see a window of opportunity for Clan-tech LAMs prior to the 2860s or so.
My personal thought would be the Wadjet begins mid-2830s but falls out of favor around 2850 and by 2870 was no longer in use, even amongst second-line units. Acceptable early, but becomes dezgra through the genetic goals of the Clans. Kind of like how Narc Missile Launchers sour amongst the Clans: nothing wrong with the technology, it just doesn't fit their evolving culture.
The Jade Falcons did experiment with a pair of LAMs from 3058-3060 (one Phoenix Hawk LAM C and one Stinger LAM C). But their plan involved a dual cockpit - one for the MechWarrior and one for the Aerospace Pilot. The Warriors who tested it hated it because one of the two was always left out of the fight, and felt they had to share the honor of any kill. A neat idea, but non-workable for the Clans that late in their history, even amongst second-liners. I'd have liked to have seen that dual-pilot concept developed a bit more during the Star League, or perhaps by a House during the earlier Succession Wars. There's an XTRO entry or two buried in that idea.
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ghostrider
10/03/21 12:25 PM
45.51.181.83
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They would well become detestable to the clans for a few reasons.
First, the 'waste' of training someone to be a mech pilot as well as an aeropilot. They would always be considered inferior in both fields, even though this may not be true.
This means spotting the potential of a warrior to have what it takes to even begin training, as they are trained in sibkos, talent would need to be spotted when they are like 5 or so.
Given clan weaponry, it is very likely they will die that much faster in a fight. The clans are not as concerned about piloting skills as they are weapons skills. So unless all pilots can perform trick shots every time, it would be considered luck for the pilot to win fights.
Given some of the clan trials, it is very possible for a LAM operator to exit a circle of equals without trying. So this would cause most to shun the unit. As a side note, the fact that it carries fuel for flight, this is something most clan mech units don't normally have to worry about, or carry. Dropships would be the main thing to need it.
The fact that mechwarriors and aeropilots can be reassigned units, the LAM would be very difficult for anyone not specifically trained with it to use it with anything more then a substandard skill level.
The specific parts is another issue. The omni concept means a lot of parts are generic. The original Omni's in tro 3050 look like robots more then most. The have the rings where the limbs attach, verses the shoulders and hips of other mechs. I am going to assume that most of the mechs built after the Omni was created, tend to use the same parts as Omnis do, for ease of maintenance and spare parts. One component for say a 25 ton mech should be useful in all 25 ton mechs, which isn't really the case in the units before the Omni. Yes, the game does not deal with this, but for a living universe, it would be something.
Yes, there will be some issues that you will never be able to get away from mech specific parts.
Deployment of LAMs would be another issue. Most clan leaders are not as concerned about maneuvering as they are about being able to take down the opponent. So landing a force behind the enemy doesn't give that much of an advantage in a normal trial of possession. There would be a stigma attached to the unit, as they were more for hit and run then a stand up fight. This is not saying the clans don't maneuver, but it isn't the top priority.
So there are a few reasons why it would fall out of favor for the clans once formed. Granted, it might be possible for the scientist caste to have a small unit of them ready to guard them incase of trouble. Mainly to get them out of the line of fire.
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Wick
10/07/21 11:33 PM
68.169.149.5
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The explanation that maneuverability is, in most clans, secondary to firepower could certainly lead LAMs to be becoming unfavored, but not dezgra. The hit and run tactics, bombing-only roles, or other tactics like that are a better explanation.
You've got me thinking that my Ice Hellions might be one of the last to give up on the idea though. They value maneuverability and don't have as much of a problem with hit and run tactics.
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ghostrider
10/15/21 01:29 PM
45.51.181.83
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Are jumpship and warship facilities set up in a ring, like Star Wars and Starship Troopers?
Or are the free floating set ups like Star Trek?
Or is there a mix of them?
The group is looking to raid a ship yard, and we are trying to figure out which one to go with. The single slips would be easier to raid, as there would be less guards on it, and if you take out coms, making it far easier, while the ring one would have a lot of guards do deal with.
Of course Fighters are going to be a real problem, but that is expected. A few assault dropships in the mix as well.
The GM has allowed us to gain intel that a couple of ships are nearing completion or finish repairs, and we thought to try and grab them.
I don't trust it will be that simple. Our GM is known to add in nasty surprises, like having the full crew including extra security there as the ships near completion. Also we believe there is a staging ground on the world in the system, so extra dropships are very probable.
Supplies and if a good roll, maybe a ship is in the offering. So kind of hard to pass up, while making an unusual fighting area to play in.
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Karagin
10/15/21 03:09 PM
70.118.172.64
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From my take, it's a mix of things for the facilities.
My group has used a lot of mixed ideas to fill what is missing from the background or never really get's a full explanation, etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/25/21 12:55 AM
45.51.181.83
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One thought came up while thinking about scenarios.
The max weight of a bridge. Is that per vehicle, or the entire bridge?
This is important, as some have major cities with bridges that can't support more then 20 tons.
This can't be true, as normal vehicles in use are more then 20 tons each.
Some buses, like the double deckers are 47,000 pounds dry. Put on a load of passengers, and it will exceed 50,000 pounds easily.
Some trucks pulling even a single trailer can be over 40 tons themselves, and that doesn't even touch doubles and even triples.
One prime example would be the bridges going into New York City in the U.S. They will have dozens or more traveling across them, while some of the freeway bridges over rivers that aren't in prime cities would do the same thing.
But back to the 20 tons. Older cars could be close to a full ton themselves, with the newer ones being down to almost half a ton. So 40 cars would be over 20 tons, and that would fit on more then a few bridges. This does not account for trucks and SUVs, which may even be towing something like a boat or travel trailer.
We won't get into rail bridges, as they can not be even close to just a 20 ton weight limit as their locomotives are heavier then that.
The description of a mechs foot, suggests it distributes the weight over a larger area then most vehicles, which is why they don't bog down as much in swampy bogs and such. This means they would distribute the weight over a larger area then a bus would.
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rockdee733
02/05/22 03:46 AM
122.177.110.241
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I did know the arrow IV had tag guided missiles, but they did have tag guided aircraft and Aerofighter bombs? Ok. Good to know.
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ghostrider
02/05/22 01:22 PM
45.51.181.83
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A lot has changed since the original release of things like the Arrow IV came out. If you don't have the newer rules, then you don't know about some things. I learned that a while back, as the last rule book I got was Battle Master Rules.
I learn things as they come up.
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ghostrider
04/19/22 09:30 PM
45.51.181.83
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The question of Twycross and the use of ICEs made me think of a simple question.
If the weather is that bad, why did they colonize it in the first place?
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Karagin
04/19/22 10:04 PM
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Quote:
The question of Twycross and the use of ICEs made me think of a simple question.
If the weather is that bad, why did they colonize it in the first place?
Because of the mineral content on the planet and the breathable atmosphere.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/20/22 11:49 AM
45.51.181.83
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Been a while since I seen the data for Twycross. But it makes sense.
As the SL had at least limited terraforming, you would figure they could lessen the storms or start converting other worlds over to breathable atmospheres. Even lacking water wasn't that big of an issue in the SL time. Shipping in ice asteroids would help to get it started. Guess playing games like Surviving Mars is giving me bad information.
I can see the reasoning for terraforming not being done as the machines may well have broken down.
I guess the developers thought making the factory on world instead of shipping the materials off world was the better idea.
Well, at least you wouldn't be so concerned about pollution settling in one area.
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ghostrider
04/25/22 11:18 PM
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We really need the real SL versions of mechs to be released.
The Warhammer was a topic, and it seems like it would not survive an encounter with another Warhammer. Yes, some shots will miss, but the SL version would not last long with the armor loads it had. The discussion moved to other mechs, and the patterned seemed to continue.
Even the max possible armor placement seems weak compared to the SL weapons, making the group wonder why armor was not a priority. They were basically one shot units.
Except for hot drops and more armor locations, mechs were an expensive target against vehicles that used the advanced weapons of the SL.
309 armor max for a 100 ton mech isn't much when things like an Alacorn was available. The ferrous fiber armor only allows less weight for same coverage, but at a higher cost. This still would mean mechs were not the bargain the game makes them out to be.
Then add in clantech, which does even more damage then the SL weapons do. This sounds like the logic hole of vehicles having to be nerfed was created by the lack of actually play testing it.
Not sure what I am missing, but something sounds very wrong and off about the entire mech concept.
Yes, it is a game, and without big stompy mechs, it wouldn't be as much fun without them.
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Karagin
04/25/22 11:22 PM
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The Royal mechs are out there in one of the TROs as a small write-up. All the SL mechs would have is all the bells and whistles so not seeing much beyond needing the variants listed within the mech write-ups in the TROs that need said such.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/02/22 02:58 AM
45.51.181.83
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To avoid issues with another thread, I thought to put up a concept that came to mind.
Wouldn't changing the weight of a unit mean basically building a new unit, not refitting an old one?
The internal structure would have to be rebuilt, meaning the entire mech would no longer be the type being changed.
Like the Phoenix Hawk IIC. They moved it up to 80 tons, which would mean a new skeleton in it. So trying to use an old version of it to do so, shouldn't work at all. It isn't like you can just weld on another frame to the existing one and make it work.
Same thing with lightening the unit as well. You can't just cut the internals in half and expect the unit to work right. It has to be rebuilt from scratch.
This was an odd thought that came up. Thought I would get it out there and see if my thoughts were right, or I am missing something.
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ghostrider
06/06/22 11:45 AM
45.51.181.83
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Is there anywhere that has stated the HPG needs to have open sky above them to work?
The question came up as the idea of a secret base, such as an underground hidden base, may well have a mobile HPG there to allow it contact with a specific HPG in another system.
Having it move to the surface to send or receive a message lowers the chance of the base remaining hidden.
As the signal is sent into hyperspace as it leaves the antenna, there would not be a reason for the light show most think it would have. The video games depiction of a beam going out should not be there. If it can be blocked, then having a disposable, or even resistant object to place in the way of the dish would be the way to avoid outgoing messages from a defender.
Radio waves can penetrate ground, so why wouldn't the HPG pulse? Put deep enough, you could still have space above the generator to send the message.
The gravity situation may prevent this, but there has been nothing stated that a moon or other object was in the way, so a message had to be delayed.
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Karagin
06/06/22 05:12 PM
70.118.172.64
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Never heard anything about needing an open sky for them to work. Can't find anything in the books either so, going with no you don't need an open sky for them to work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/06/22 08:31 PM
45.51.181.83
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The concept of open skies came up thinking about the video games, and the need for large surface buildings to represent the HPGs. I don't remember places like Twycross suggesting the HPGs were underground.
So the chance of finding a secret base with a small area with a generator hidden far underground, were the only access to it would be inside wire conduits is possible. Might lead to mobile units, or even a full scale working HPG. Maybe a few of them. A black ops hub so to speak.
I doubt Comstar would have access to all secret locations for this type of building. The periphery would be a more likely place for something like this to survive in.
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Karagin
06/06/22 09:08 PM
70.118.172.64
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The dish might need a big area but then again maybe not since the whole thing fits on a warship and we don't see no large dish arrays on those things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/06/22 10:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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The Mobile HPG wouldn't have a large dish either. It is only 50 tons, and needs a lot of that for things like engine, power, armor and such.
Even if a fairly large dish is needed, you could still seal up the chamber it is in, so it does not have much access to the outside. Even just a reinforced roof and collapse or backfill up to the surface is the only thing required. After a while, you wouldn't even know it was there, or better yet, make a lake there. The water would be a decent cover when the land returns to looking like a normal lake.
Just make sure the area by the HPG doesn't leak.
The thought just hit me. What if the dish is only shown as so large due to the video games and artists?
It isn't like they haven't exaggerated pictures before.
It looks like we are to assume they are the size of radio telescope dishes. It could well be the size of the antenna on the Swiftwind car. The generator may be the main weight of the unit, not the dish.
More thought about it, Comstar could well have made it look that large to make sure others don't try and make one themselves.
Using the black box model, the transmitter is the issue, not the dish. The Blackbox is slower, but can send it further then the large dishes. Well, until the WOB garbage came out.
Edited by ghostrider (06/06/22 10:04 PM)
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Karagin
06/06/22 10:42 PM
70.118.172.64
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I wouldn't doubt the dish is the largest part of the whole thing, and I wouldn't doubt that ComStar would make it even bigger to make it look more impressive.
One thing I find odd, is that somehow the whole system crashes and no one has a clue how to reboot it or anything, yeah something tells me that was a poor story plot point that was just there for well here is why the ROTS is not the powerhouse, etc...then again given who many of the PTB during the Jihad/Dark Age silliness were, well logical plots and such were not their strong point Almost surprised they didn't try to lift more from other Sci-fi properties to cover the lack of skilled writing.
Let's look at things, ComStar has to keep their stuff working, it's VERY illogical that the "idea" that they could not repair or build new HPGs is one that has always been hard to follow. And given that we can see tons of tech roll out the second the ComStar splits with their fanatical side, yeah okay. Just like we are to believe everything we are told by ComStar, yet then told they lie...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/07/22 02:17 AM
45.51.181.83
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I do agree that it is very strange that the people that were keeping the network up and running, could not figure out how to keep it running, nor knew how to fix or build new ones.
I could see a system wide crash one time. Something like an old SL code that shut down the network, but it would only last as long as the systems were still powered. Once fully shut down, they could be brought back on line without an issue, unless the code was still transmitting. But that is pushing it a bit.
Something similar to the one IBM compatible virus that shut down comps on the 26th of each month for a while.
But again, this should not have lasted long.
It would have been funny to find out it wasn't purposefully done, but someone looking into the code and found the command or password.
There is a question on this. Does Comstar/WOB update their coding? Or is it the same program made back in the SL time before Amaris? The quasi religious aspect of it would make me think they never coded any of it after a time. It would seem funny if they did not repair things properly due to the same issues. Not likely, but funny.
Yeah. I can see only one back up to the main code, and the tape drive it was on, malfunctioned, sending out bad code each time the update was set to go off.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 07:26 PM
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A major irony just occurred to me.
Alexander and Nicholas Kerensky had performed disciplinary actions on military personnel when they mutinied, and this was considered horrible, but when Katherine Steiner-Davion did so, it was just disciplining those that fell out of line.
As the FC was considered a free realm, not a military operation, isn't this ironic?
Both examples had people put to death.
The issue of legality comes up, yet it was never suggested that a free society should never have done so.
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Karagin
06/21/22 08:18 PM
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A couple of things, military courts are different from civilian courts. In the case of the Kerensky's they are both using military Tribunals (military courts), suggest you go read some on the US Military Uniform Code of Military Justice, (UCMJ) it will explain a lot about why a military will sentence a person to death or hard labor for things that would get far milder sentencing on the civilian side. Now for the part about Katherine, she was using existing laws of the Fed-Com and her own picked judges to get what she wanted. that's normally how dictators work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 11:53 PM
45.51.181.83
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The wiki on the Exodus Road seems to be wrong.
The Exodus Road was the route established between the Clan Homeworlds and the Inner Sphere during Operation REVIVAL. At roughly 1,000 light years in length, it was a secret way through the stars leading more or less directly to the coreward border of the Inner Sphere and Periphery. Despite the name, this path is different to the meandering and far longer route originally taken by General Aleksandr Kerensky for Operation EXODUS.[1]
The map given in the wiki shows Operation Revival taking an almost straight path 'down' into the IS, not along the curved road of the exodus.
It is even more confusing as the Exodus Road ends/begins near the OA, not the FRR.
After the Clan Invasion, the Exodus Road became a key supply line between the invader clans and the Clan Homeworlds. To prevent the Inner Sphere forces to discover the road, the road was divided into several stages. Any ship that traveled the route had to erase its navigational data before the next part of the journey as a security measure.
This further suggests the wiki is wrong. Maybe it meant the Revival route, not the Exodus route.
Can someone tell me what I am missing with this?
This bothered me when Trent was returning to the clan home worlds, mapping the road. There is a huge difference between the two paths.
I was looking up where the Tortuga Pirates were and and if they should have found the Dragoon's hidding supply depot. The map shown does not give enough visual to see how far out in the periphery by the OA it goes.
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Karagin
06/22/22 12:05 AM
70.118.172.64
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Keep in mind there are two planets named Ferris as well one in the Barrens and one in the OA. Lots of oddities out there in the "uncharted" Periphery that is still just that as far as TPTB are concerned until they need it not to be.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/23/22 06:56 PM
45.51.181.83
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Does this constant reusing names show why the imagination of the developers seem stunted?
I know it is difficult at times to come up with something new, but then I am not writing things to make money.
The example of the Exodus road causes a lot of confusion to people, especially if they don't have access to a website to clarify things, like Sarna has.
The novels don't do much to show this either. Using the Exodus road for Trent, then Serpent, would mean they would have used Revival road, which meant the IS should have run into a lot more of the Jaguars before then got to the clan home worlds. Even other clans should have been encountered.
I know. FASA logic strikes again.
At least some of the novels had contact with forces of the Jaguars, as well as the Nova Cats.
This really shows the developers need to pay closer attention to the novel writers. And maybe get someone else with some creativity and imagination into the team.
Otherwise, just change Strana Mechty to Terra and the pentagon worlds into the IS house capitals.
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Karagin
06/23/22 09:52 PM
70.118.172.64
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I think the reusing of the names comes from the idea that people will name things how they want. How many Richmonds are there or Greenville's or Georgetown's, etc...that isn't a major issue if was done with a number behind the name, like Carthage Nine or how they treat Solaris VII, we know it's the seventh world of that system, but they don't do that. Maps only show a name, you have to go dig to find out that Ferris and Ferris are not the same planets.
Mechs and vehicles and aerospace units have the same issues. That's going to happen, happens in real life. So their quirk of it is normally fine, but they keep using it over and over and over. The game is a thousand plus years from the then date of 1983/84 time. Worlds would not be just common names, we should be seeing crazy stuff like New Vegas or New Waltworld, or similar things, we all know corporations are going to be jumping to get a world or ten under their control and name it after themselves. Imagine a Walmart world or a Sears wolrd or a Amazon world...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/24/22 12:00 AM
45.51.181.83
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You mean we could have New New We Really Mean New Vegas? That's a depressing thought.
It is just annoying that worlds and even important routes would be the same name as others.
The issue I had when reading the books was not knowing there were two routes called the Exodus Road, at the time. It confused me as they did not run into much besides pirates, though I did think the original ran north past the FRR area, not out the OA area.
I would believe the developers are more then likely to have forgotten the name was used before they reused it. Little things seemed to disappear, only to reappear later, like someone said 'opps! we forgot about this.'
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Karagin
06/24/22 12:31 AM
70.118.172.64
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Oh, I am talking like we could see worlds named after every fictional thing and pop culture reference you can come up with, issues are CGL and FASA, etc... can't afford to be sued for doing that. However, we have seen shows like Babylon 5 get away with having Planet Disney and a few others doing similar things. Not sure about all the legalize though.
Hence why we need more system development along with major planets, so that way we know if they are talking New Dallas then we know it's the Dallas. Things like that. The problem becomes on what sells, seems that there's this idea that the scenario packs/books never sold well, yet I recall many times having to get my local FLGS to order them or going to another city in my state to get a copy. So not selling on the levels of the TROs sure, but if that is the benchmark they were using to judge what books to publish or still are then they are clearly lost on how things work. The KS should have shown them that fans what Battletech stuff, ALL of it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/24/22 10:59 AM
45.51.181.83
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The adventure packs may not have sold well, because where I lived, they were not really on the shelves for people to even see. For a while, I didn't even know the existed.
Granted, it didn't help that the hobby stores really didn't carry much in the way of gaming material. It was many arts and crafts hobby materials.
In the end, money seems to do the most damage. Chasing things that don't do more then pay a little more then what they cost, gets thrown to the winds, and in the end, they are supporting the main product. Given what Harmony Gold did, I can see them being a bit skittish, but some of the periphery things causes interest in the main product, which does bring in more people buying it.
This is not suggesting making gold plated minitures. The pewter lines does help stimulate interest in the games.
How much is the question that I don't have an answer for.
To be honest, they could use their own characters to create names of worlds. Mallorys World is one such example.
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Karagin
06/24/22 12:47 PM
70.118.172.64
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They could do a lot of things, but taking chances doesn't always seem to be something they want to do. However, if we the fans are critical of them they come out swing, as I have seen first hand.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/25/22 10:59 AM
45.51.181.83
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If fusion engines run so well on little fuel, and there doesn't seem to be a cost (other then the plant itself), why is there cold worlds like Tharkad?
It would figure that using fusion generators to power large heaters should be part of a terraforming program to heat up the entire planet.
There is one picture of a heavy/assault lance moving thru the streets, and the caption says the city is being powered by a large reactor, so it isn't like they don't already have some in place. I won't say that the power output isn't stressed by people using the power already, but the idea is key.
I would believe that they could be used as such, which also includes warming up other areas, like asteroids and such.
I do know the opposite doesn't work. Cooling a world with such things as Air Conditioners doesn't work, as the units produce heat to cool areas.
Although space elevators could be the key here. Heat/cold transfer lines in it could conduct heat to space, and cold to the ground.
which makes you wonder if the game ever had space elevators in it as well.
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Karagin
06/25/22 07:17 PM
70.118.172.64
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Might be that the planet is as warm as it is able to get without ruining the ability to sustain life at levels that mean good production?
I am sure Beansstalks were there, just never mentioned, seems like they stepped away from the harder science after Clans arrived and went more to the instant action FPS style game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/25/22 10:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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This issue could have been done before the clans, especially when the SL had left terraforming equipment behind when they left. Even the TH, TA and such could well have used this to help terraform cold worlds.
This may well have also allowed them to send water to worlds around it, as it thawed, and assuming it had more water then needed.
Though sustain life is relative. The human form does not do well in temperatures that remain below -20 degrees year round. Plants and some animals do ok with it. But when does a human want to live in such temperatures if they can live in something around 60 or so? The could well bring in plants and such to live at that temperature, but I can see where the soil itself might not support a lot of plant life.
I wonder if they ever thought about that with Tharkad and others?
As a side note, you could make an atmosphere semi breathable by electrolysis of water, and keeping the hydrogen for fuel. But I'm pretty sure most knew that.
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Karagin
06/25/22 10:45 PM
70.118.172.64
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If you go look at the FASA Star Trek game stuff for the Klingons which was out roughly the same time as the early BT stuff, you will that someone at FASA had a heavy interest or a love affair for cold weather worlds. Since the majority of the Klingon worlds were ice colder than Pluto was thought to be.
And remember Steiner has links to Northern Europe, so Northern Germany, Denmark, Norway, etc...all cold-weather areas.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/28/22 01:59 AM
45.51.181.83
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Does anyone know what happened to the Titan Carrier dropship?
It came out in the 2750 books, but I have not seen anything about it since then.
I honestly would think it would have been put into production and replaced the Leopard CV ship.
From the weapons load, it looked like an assault ship that could carry 18 fighters.
Has anyone used it in their games?
I tried to talk the group into using them, but they seemed put off by it. Probably because it wasn't use after it was introduced, but they didn't like it when they were told it would replace more then a few Leopard CVs, meaning less jumpship births used for fighter carriers. The Vengeance is great, but getting ahold of one without the GM being nice is difficult at best.
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Requiem
06/28/22 02:10 AM
1.124.25.3
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Titan_(DropShip_class)
after reading the above sits it states that all IS ships were killed off during succession wars – and only the Clans have retain them …
However I would like to ask why TPTB never allowed the IS to rebuild then in the IS?
Though there are many instances of technology and state education (and intelligence gathering) not been utilized correctly for the IS … I doubt many would have picked up on this glaring error …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
06/28/22 09:37 AM
70.118.172.64
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There was some mention of them in the Jihad and then nothing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/28/22 12:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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Since the Titan was part of the data recovered in the Helm Core, there is no 'loss of information' in the IS for it.
The only reason why they wouldn't be built is the lack of ship yard birth to do so. Yet the Hamilcar was built, so this doesn't make sense.
As stated, it has great firepower, and would cover 3 Leopard CV birth on a jumpship meaning 2 more ships could be loaded on the same amount of jumpships, would save space.
The information suggests that this ship and it's compliment would take out most jump point defenders itself is a big deal.
One thing that is missing is most writing does not include the ship. As I don't have the books past the clan invasion, I didn't get to read anything about the future, though from what has been posted, it doesn't seem like they were used much.
I like the design over the Leopard CV. The issue is getting them filled with fighters. The group I play with does not use the unlimited sources to buy syndrome. The GM rolls to see if anything is available, using a computer as there is a lot of things that can be on sale, and if they don't have it, then you can't buy it. Having to order it to be made is a pain, as it can take a while to build, and when you need one now, hurts.
As stated, this covers the spot between the Vengeance and the Leopard, which makes it good for fighter coverage. When dealing with multiple units on different worlds, they are very important for providing additional fighter coverage over the mech carriers that have fighter support.
This is good for garrison duty as well, since you can have a fighter battalion on patrol, while the rest of the regiment has some down time.
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Requiem
06/28/22 03:17 PM
1.124.26.106
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I’m not surprised, the military industrial complex of every Great House is quite inept when it comes to manufacturing weapons from infantry all the way through to Naval Warships.
Each Great House should purge from their military many of their military industrial complexes designs as being pointless.
TPTB really need someone to point out that in a Universe built upon constant war the engineering of each subsequent generation should be improving upon the last generations’ weapons systems – in other words it really shouldn’t be going backwards.
Also in a Universe where constant war is the norm the Great House’s Military Procurement Department has the whip handle not the other way around – thus there should be someone providing oversight as to the procurement of weapon systems into their military, and not the hap hazard releases as given in the game.
Military Technology should also logically progress - with the arrival of the Clans all vehicles (with the exception of Naval) should be Omni – also over time all weapons should be upgraded to Clan and then beyond this in range, damage with reducing heat.
Where is the R&D in the game? Also some of the ranges of electronic scanners equipment are beyond ludicrous and should have been fixed from day one!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/28/22 06:43 PM
45.51.181.83
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The idea of not having a min/max set up in mechs in canon makes sense. If they were, then most new players would give up trying as anyone with experience would be able to wipe them out quickly, as the new player would over heat quickly.
It does not make sense to most that have a good idea of what works and what doesn't.
I also believe that without the min/max concept, a few weapons systems would not be in production, like the small laser. Few units might require it, such as the Awesome 8Q. The gap between minimum range and physical contact can be a bit harsh, but the penalties aren't as bad as say an archer. Yes the archer has 2 forward lasers and 2 backwards facing lasers.
The AC 2 would be more useful on a facility that can not really be reached by much, as light artillery. The idea of being a main weapons is a bit much otherwise. Obstacles would prevent a lot of fire from them. So hill top firing down is about the only way to use it. The Gauss rifle would suffer a little from this, but it is not so nerfed with minimum range, nor is it a peashooter.
But they do have their purposes.
Omni tech is more of a challenge to deal with. It is easy to say all units should have it, but more then a few don't need it. Well that is if you want to keep the vehicle as it was originally produced. Coming up with a whole new line would be preferrable with omni tech. The Hertzer is a good example of this. One weapon. To use omni tech would mean having to change the entire concept and use of it. Not that this is a horrible idea. But unnecessary. A new unit would be better off being used, especially since the wheeled chassis is a problem in most combat.
Well most combat that I have seen. City fighting is frowned upon by the group. Too many big bad PPC/AC 20 carriers that can't do much with infantry ambushes.
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Karagin
06/29/22 12:03 PM
70.118.172.64
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Min/Max is for idiots. Yes, I said it. It's for players who have to win at any cost. That is the sole reason they play games. They must win or else they will make it hell for the other players.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/30/22 11:36 AM
45.51.181.83
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I had originally thought it was stupid that the original mechs were not maxed out, until I realized that most that just started playing, didn't know things like heat management and why it was important. It also showed why not only bracket firing was necessary, but the mechs were not the jack of all trades. They could be tried in some roles, but they were pretty much set up for certain roles.
The Archer is horrible in heavy forested maps. Before IDF for missiles, this was even more true then now. The 2 medium lasers are just not enough to defend the mech against similar weighted unit that use other weapons.
Dealing with infantry is yet another role that got even more problematic with the single point damage change for non pulse energy weapons. The Awesome 8Q show this well.
This forces players to think about the mechs uses with their weapons and even speed/jets. But it is a bit more realistic when you think about it. It is a bit difficult to adjust to a few roles, when you are stuck in a rut, like having a hit and run unit when you want to just stand and fight. The normal example would be a locust verses an atlas, but this doesn't really show much. The weight difference is the problem with it.
Something more akin to say a griffin verse a phoenix hawk. The TRO main versions, show the P-hawk needs to get under LRM range, and run the Griffin hot. Without physical contact, the Griffin is at a disadvantage when at closer range. Both will have to deal with heat, but the P-hawks Large laser and shorter ranged weapons come into play. If you can't get in close, then the PPC does is great. But given the maps,
The open areas needed for LRMs and to some extent the PPCs also limits some of the distance shots. Granted, the mid range with the longer portion of short range for the PPC is ideal for to hit rolls, IE 4-5 range, makes the Griffin dangerous, if they are not heated up.
But with the min/max concept, most would never understand this. Most would see this issue, and not want to touch it. It took a few matches to get this thru my skull. AC 20s are great near point blank range. But they are worthless in an LRM fight.
So leaving out the Saladin Hover tank, open field engagements are LRM/PPC/AC 2/5 fights. Hard to get in close to even attempt the 20. An AC 10 is usable, though not likely to be able to potshot as much as you would like.
Speed is shown well here as well. With little to no cover, the little mechs require their speed to try and avoid shots. Something the death match arena people rarely ever find out.
The stock mechs force players to choose. For some, this forces players to play different from what then want to. Part of why so many love changing out units to fight different battles. It is too difficult to use a mech that is at a disadvantage in some fights. And for some scenarios, this is something that has to happen. A map that is being fought over a bridge that is destroyed, and no other way to get within say 5 hexes of each other, long range weapons is a must. So this, I can see changing out units. Not realistic, if you were sent to assault the enemy on the other side before the bridge was taken out, and now you have to deal with losing the bridge. But we won't get into that.
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Karagin
06/30/22 12:10 PM
70.118.172.64
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The game is not built for min/max. When players use it they break the game. Even Clan tech isn't set up for it. Watch folks at local conventions over the years get upset when they couldn't use their targ/pulse laser death machines with their 0/0 pilots or their LBX death machines etc... Really want to see folks cry, set a game at the local convention, and tell players they can bring their own homemade mechs, BUT the mechs have to be given to you to verify PRIOR to the game starting, say an hour before. Then sit down, plug the info into any of the mech building programs and watch the amount of silliness come up. You find that many will have fudged things or used Photoshop to alter the sheets after the fact or they will give you an old fashion done by hand mech, nothing wrong with that until you enter things in and find out the armor is wrong for the weight, speed, weapons, etc...etm.
Seen several GMs do this and it has been a riot watch players find out they can't cheat to win. Or even better get to the convention, didn't read the write-up of the BT game and find out they are not playing Clan stuff, and cry cause well they have never used Inner Sphere stuff before. Or as I have spoken of before, have no idea that the tabletop game exists and only know Battletech from the computer games.
One of the big issues is that many players run to the middle of the maps and duel it out like we are watching a WWF or Rocky going 12 rounds. They won't use tactics, and then when they face players who will use the terrain, they get mad. What do you mean I can't hit you? I only walk and you are in the medium range! Yes, but I jumped, there are heavy woods and your heat is high enough that it's adding a +1 to all of that. SO you need a 9 or better good luck.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/04/22 07:41 PM
45.51.181.83
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The question of why some stars can charge a jump drive faster, and not risk a misjump like hot charging does?
I am not talking the couple of hours or even a day hot charging, but 3 to 5 day hot charge.
This is also a question when a ship receives a charge from a station as well.
Does any of the better recharging stars risk it?
Does a charge from a station risk this as well?
As rules have changed since the books I got, did they update this?
How long does a drive have to charge before it drops to no extra penalties for a faster charge.
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ghostrider
07/07/22 11:14 AM
45.51.181.83
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Given the fact that systems are light years apart, how would someone know where to point a HPG antenna if they don't have the information required to determine where the actual system is, much less the world on which the relay would exist? This would be an issue if the person wasn't able to, or the data for the stations tracking system was corrupt.
Simply aiming the HPG at where the star looks wouldn't work.
The closest star to the Sol system is almost 4 light years. As all bodies in the universe are constantly moving, the light we receive now from that one star is almost 4 years out of date. The entire system as moved since then.
This issue is the same thing jump ships have to deal with.
This supports the concept that the HPG isn't a tight beam to a single point. It should have a large cone effect as it moves out to compensate for the movement. Which may explain why there is a limit to the distance the HPG works, barring the WOB crap.
The black box says it sends out a signal in all directions, as they shielded it to prevent this in the 20 year update I believe.
Yet this should mean that sending a signal from it, should only be available when the world, or the sender is in a position to avoid sending the signal thru the world.
But yet the signal doesn't seem to have a range here.
Which would also mean signals sent by one would slowly reach all worlds and confuse those receiving it, as some would be years old.
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Karagin
07/14/22 01:24 PM
70.118.172.64
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Helm MC.
How much of this was military-related data and how much was civilian-related? I have asked before and while we know the game is about mechs beating up each other, having the details about the other side of things adds flavor and fun.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 02:30 PM
45.51.181.83
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It would be very interesting to see that regeneration was part of the information gained from the Core. Even a more life like skin covering that would allow cybernetics to be done and not easily found out.
I would assume being able to clone organs would be in there, as this would allow some of the rich and powerful to replace their own body parts with such organs, such as a liver for an alcoholic.
Even things like self driving vehicles, for better traffic control among normal people would be interesting. Though this one would have military applications as well.
Even having theoretical data for extending the HPG range as well as some initial data showing the jump limits of jumpships being at least looked and and tested before WOB did it.
Remote control upgrades being another civilian with military applications being another one to see.
Better building materials for normal structures, though military could benefit from it.
Better agriculture methods and fertilizers are yet another thing, with hydroponics having a boost.
Even some terraforming items that could increase things like removing toxins from areas, making it possible to start fixing nuke sites. A can see this being a good thing even in the SL time. Accidents and even the Amaris war prompting at least initial research into that area.
As a side note, the idea that you can contact a ship in transit between a world and jump point from 30 lightyears away, yet can't hit a moving target that is less then 60 meters away is a bit off.
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Karagin
07/17/22 06:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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Yeah, a lot of oddities in the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/10/22 09:29 PM
45.51.181.83
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Does anyone have a clue on where there is information on what the clans were going to do when they took Terra in the initial invasion of the canon story line?
We know the Ghost Bears moved to the IS, but was this planned before they left the home worlds?
What about the others?
Were they going to move into the IS?
Were they going to remain split between the home worlds and the IS?
The what if thread had me think about this, as I don't believe there is anything in the books that covered this.
They were going to create a new star league, but other then that, how would they support themselves?
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ghostrider
08/17/22 11:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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One thing that came up in a conversation, that really affects the story of the IS.
What would have happened if the Lyran Commonwealth did not steal the battlemech design from the TH?
I doubt most of the story would have happened, as this is one of the most profound circumstances that changed the IS.
The DC would never have gained the tech, as they got it from the LC. This would also mean the other houses probably would not have the tech either.
So the TH would be the ONLY ones that had they tech, and the only ones that owned it.
Would the SL have every formed? Or would the TH decide to start seizing/annexing worlds from the other houses by force?
Might be something for a what if thread.
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ghostrider
08/23/22 06:54 PM
45.51.181.83
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What if the Wolves were not forced to participate in the invasion?
Would they have sat back, then hit the invasion clans properties in the home worlds?
For some reason, I think this would be an outcome of the invasion. Basically cut off the supplies the Jaguars and Falcons would have needed to do much there, as well as severely weaken them at home.
I believe there was an agreement set up so the invading clans were not swamped by the others while a majority of their forces were in the IS, but not sure if they had the same thing about only one clan hitting their holdings.
It would also require another clan to take their place, which would further erode the crusaders main clans in the home worlds.
It would also radically change the invasion as well.
This does not mean Requiem should run out and start a thread dealing with this as he did with Phelan after we proposed to have a major discussion about him.
Oh yeah. Enjoy being ignored.
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Karagin
08/23/22 07:31 PM
70.118.172.64
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No Wolves would mean a different invasion focus and outcome, so that was easy. Next question.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/25/22 12:13 PM
45.51.181.83
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Is there a list of units and assets the invading clans had that were not part of the invasion?
Those units that did not bid well enough to accompany their parent clan into the IS?
We have the list for what did enter the IS, but I would like to see what the Wolves, Falcons, Bears, and Jaguars left to guard their holdings back in the home worlds.
This might explain where most of the reinforcements came from.
And the solemha units they brought with them may well have been mobile defense units to guard worlds they took. They were just forced to use them in other roles besides that.
We know the Wolves brought only 2 warships, yet we know they had more. They could not compete with the other clans if those were the only two they had.
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ghostrider
11/13/22 01:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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The idea of jumpships and gravity came to mind with a post.
Did the developers ignore the fact that the first jump ship tests were done from the two main jump points of Sol, that the chance of a misjump would have been great? Or did they just say there was no danger, as it would have stopped the progression of making jump ships?
The fact that it would have to jump very near, if not completely thru the sun, the gravity from the star would have caused major issues.
Too much or too little gravity is said to affect the jumpship at the jump point. Does a misjump come from too much or too little?
As asked before, would a jump ship move a station near a jump point, if it jumped in the location of the station? This could also be asked about large asteroids in a jump location, such as just exploring a new system? The 'dangers' put forth in the old books seemed to have been lessened or removed with the concept of the items being pushed out of the way by an incoming jump ship.
This brings up a potential 'weapon' to use against jumpships to prevent them from jumping. Not only the normally thought of emp to disrupt a charge to prevent jumping out, but potential gravity 'anchor' to prevent jumps coming in and jumping out.
Yes, this does bored on artificial gravity, but it could well be just asteroids being placed in a jump point.
An incoming fleet could well push the items into other jumpships in that fleet, damaging them, or even dropships being launched.
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ghostrider
11/13/22 08:18 PM
45.51.181.83
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Had a question come up about weight and space on dropships.
The Leopard dropship has room for 4 mechs and 2 fighters. It has 5 cargo space on it.
Removing the fighter bays gives you 150 tons for each bay, meaning 300 more tons can be carried, or so simple math says.
With the video games using a Leopard, they suggest you can carry several thousand tons of mechs if in cold storage.
Would this be possible in the game, since disassembled units take up far less space then even a locust in one piece? Or even just securing them to other spaces besides the bays themselves?
Given the fact that the Leopard should be able to carry 600 tons of mechs with their bays (50 tons each), and another 300 tons of fighters with their bays, does this mean you could load up 20 Locust or some other 20 tone mechs on the ship? That should be equal to 400 tons of the normal mech weight if you loaded up 4 Atlases. Another 7 1/2 more for the fighter weights should be able to be done as well.
Is there some rules that deals with this in the newer books?
Yes, some will say the locust is small enough to fit 2 in a by, but the Wasp/Stinger comes to mind with the weight issue.
The Leopard is the smallest ship, so easiest to figure out. This could well be used for the larger ships including the Overlord/Excalibur ships with the battalion of mechs.
Yes, this does sound like a way to increase the amount of forces you can move into combat, by trying to fit more units into a ship, but having to reassemble units for combat isn't going to work. This is thinking about taking salvage and prizes out of a combat.
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ghostrider
11/28/22 11:53 PM
45.51.181.83
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Is there a list of factories in the 3025 era that were house owned before the SL fell?
Or a list of all the factories in house territories that were SL owned, besides Defiance?
I find it very odd that the factories in operations during the 3025 era were all house owned outside of the SL area, when they were limited in the number of forces they could legally have.
This is especially true when you compare the number of factories that was supposed to be destroyed in the succession wars.
The same question can also apply to ship yards. Galax is supposed to be the largest one in the FS, but was it actually an SL one used to repair and make ships during the Reunification War with the TC?
I would believe the SL tried to keep certain mech models out of House hands as well, besides the 'advanced' models, such as things like the Highlander or Atlas. To my limited knowledge those were only built is SL facilities, with Defiance being the only one I know that wasn't SL owned only. The Orion was built in the FWL, but was that FWL owned, or SL facility in the FWL?
I know the video games are not really canon, but with all the SL caches and secret facilities, as well as the lore saying the houses grabbed those in TH territory when the SL fell, it would be interesting to see just how few the houses had especially when the SL did what it could to keep the advanced tech from being made outside SL owned and run facilities.
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Karagin
11/29/22 06:08 PM
70.118.172.64
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The original House Books had this info.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
11/30/22 12:44 AM
45.51.181.83
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I know they had some info on factories they currently possess, but I don't remember them listing all, or whether they had been SL facilities.
Things like space borne refineries and such didn't come out until 2750, so weren't in the original books.
And I don't remember seeing much about all the factories that were destroyed in any of the older books.
Given some of the factories were built after the SL left, as well as production lines being changed, there are a few questions that come up, such as was the FWL the only ones to produce the Awesome? Or where the factories in other states destroyed during the wars?
We already know that some LC mechs are built by the TC. If I recall this includes the 'new' Hatchetman in the 3025 era. And with the SL tech coming back, the variants made by the LC, were copied by the TC.
As asked originally, where Highlanders and Atlas's all made in SL factories? As I do not see any being listed being made outside the original TH worlds. This is partially true for a few other mechs.
The Defiance information says that more then a few lines were destroyed in the fights over the factories, yet nothing stating what was lost due to this, or other facilities.
It was suggested that the SL had manufacturing facilities located around the IS, and hints at facilities in the periphery as well.
Had to check it, but the Dark Nebula was part of the Rim Worlds Republic before the SL went into the Amaris war.
I was hoping for some sort of in depth or somewhat complete list of facilities that have been 'found' since the fall of the SL.
The idea that each house had facilities to build up 50 regiments of units in a few years sounds off, when the SL was trying to limit what they had. As this was also over the course of time, they would not need facilities to build 20 regiments in a year. And this was not straight mech regiments as well. I would expect the SL/TH to require military units, especially mechs to be purchased and registered with their offices.
The SL lasted for a few hundred years, so the math doesn't work right.
Edited by ghostrider (11/30/22 12:50 AM)
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ghostrider
12/04/22 01:04 AM
45.51.181.83
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So is there any canon material that has a full list of what factories where owned by who before the fall of the SL?
And what went to who during the fall?
It looks odd that in the objective raids book, it seems the TC had more and better factories then the CC had.
It would also be nice to know where dropships and jumpships were made, so rebuilding shipyards might actually produce the lostech ships.
It would solve some issues on things like where did the SL go to repair ships damaged near or in the periphery, and what factories were repairing or building units lost in that area. The suggestion that there were so many factories before the succession wars took them out, but yet nothing much is said about many of them.
Some mechs are better then others, yet they seem to be built in very few places.
While others seem to be everywhere but only built in one nation. I thought the Urbanmech was only CC built, but the wiki says there is a variant called the Suburbanmech that was started in 3010. The Urbanmech seems to be used in a lot of planetary defense forces, or so goes a lot of novel/games.
Edited by ghostrider (12/04/22 01:09 AM)
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ghostrider
12/06/22 08:36 PM
45.51.181.83
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Interesting. In the wiki, it says the FS had built the Awesome at the beginning of the 1st war. The factory was attacked by the CC, which destroyed the mech line of it.
This is the sort of information I have been looking for. This is why I asked if there is a list that tells this sort of information.
I just don't want to have to go thru 5 different entries, chasing down things like this.
It still doesn't say much about the production numbers, but the fact that it happened tells some of the story.
I would still like to see the full data sheets of the SL mechs, which were later 'downgraded' as the tech was lost. I still do not believe that an SL Wasp wasn't fully decked out in tech, but was basically the same as the 3025 Wasp. Same goes for all the mechs that were in 3025 that were not designed after the fall of the SL.
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ghostrider
02/22/23 06:12 PM
45.51.181.83
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Moving a conversation to avoid threadjacking another more then we have....
There is a lot of issues with the set up of the game.
A 10 rated fusion engine weighing .5 tons, comes with 10 free heat sinks and produces the same power as a 400 rated engine.
A myomer bundle for a 30 ton mech can move the unit 2/3 on up to 8/12 for the 3025 model mechs. Then they came out with MASC and superchargers. This is using the same bundles...
Targeting is really screwy. There is so much wrong with it, it would require it's own thesis to deal with.
Originally, there were limits to weights of all land based units. Hovers were 50 ton max. Then came the super heavies. The engine weight was screwed up with XL engines, where they just added in weight to get the engine to be the 20 percent. Yet the smaller fusion engine puts out the same power as the larger one...
A fusion plant running a tank in general wasn't really explained, as they don't say how the plasma is changed to motive force. I believe electric motors are used to propel the vehicle, but I can't get an answer to this one. I think they realized that a small ICE engine could power amps to produce the power needed to run the vehicle at the same speed as a fusion engine can. But then the Shielding part of the fusion engine is worthless as the fusion engine does not produce harmful energy besides heat, which is regulated, so it doesn't go above a certain amount. It can not be forced to overheat.
Which also begs to ask why the XL shielding can't be used in an ICE to lighten the weight of them. Even the normal AC barrels are designed to take the explosive heat of firing and continue working.
And let's not forget the endosteel and double sinks not being usable by vehicles.
I do understand that logic does not fit with the game properly. I dislike being told things like endosteel doesn't work in vehicles, even though mechs put so much more pressure on it then a vehicle does. Walking and running being in all mechs, but then jumping puts that much more on it. They wanted to make mechs the best ground unit, but couldn't do it with things like vehicles not building heat with ballistics and missiles.
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Karagin
02/26/23 09:42 PM
38.48.39.237
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A fusion engine might be more of a battery-like thing for vehicles. It provides the power source to the engine overall. The vehicle still has an engine, but its power is not gas/diesel or other carbon fuel. Thus the unit has everything in one spot and is self-contained for purpose-building things.
Fusion Bottle is how some sci-fi settings describe their fusion engines and they make it sound like all the engine components are in cases with the fusion reactor to allow it to be one single unit.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/26/23 10:18 PM
45.51.181.83
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I have been looking for an answer to how fusion power is converted into motive power for a while. Fusion has been described as electric like output, or so the use of myomer bundles suggests. The electrical impulses cause the 'muscles' to contract. The MASC increases the strength of this signal to cause it to contract that much faster.
My end logic says that to turn wheels on a vehicle, it would fall to electric motors in this line of thought. Yet I still haven't found the answer.
I doubt anyone involved in developing the game will tell me. If the outcome is what I have thought it is, it changes the entire way movement of vehicles works. It looks like it would remove the basis of engine size for vehicles. Only electrical output would be how fast and large the unit could be. This is what the energy cell system seems to be based on.
To my knowledge, the plasma in the fusion engine, is not pushed against a turbine in order to produce power, especially motive power. I could be wrong, as I am not a scientist or engineer. To my knowledge, it is run by basically a transformer, that creates the electric power.
If this is true, then electric motor(s) are required to change that to movement. It makes a lot of sense for hover craft and VTOLs. It also explains why units can still move if one wheel is destroyed. Units with a single track, might just have one motor in the 'line' of them, would explain the loss of power/speed. Losing the the track off of one side should prevent forward/backward movement of the tank, but allow it to spin in place as the intact one should still work.
I know the game has it's own logic, so real life working physics don't fit well.
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TechWriter22
03/14/23 06:13 PM
154.16.192.14
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You're into biomechanics and muscle physiology. Contraction requires electricity- the rest is up to the brain (both the mechwarrior and gyro/computer).
So, in theory, your movement is- at a basic level-
Fusion --> Electrical charge --> controlled impulse to myomer based on control ---> movement
The question is what converts the energy potential created by fusion into electrical impulse? Fission is: heat from nuclear --> dipped in water --> steam --> force pushes turbine to spin around a coil (basically hydroelectric but fusion generated steam pressure instead of water movement). However, I don't know enough about fusion to answer that end of the question.
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Cray
03/14/23 08:18 PM
71.47.208.18
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Quote:
You're into biomechanics and muscle physiology. Contraction requires electricity- the rest is up to the brain (both the mechwarrior and gyro/computer).
So, in theory, your movement is- at a basic level-
Fusion --> Electrical charge --> controlled impulse to myomer based on control ---> movement
The question is what converts the energy potential created by fusion into electrical impulse? Fission is: heat from nuclear --> dipped in water --> steam --> force pushes turbine to spin around a coil (basically hydroelectric but fusion generated steam pressure instead of water movement). However, I don't know enough about fusion to answer that end of the question.
This is addressed in Tech Manual, p30-40ish, the "Mech Tech Primer" chapter. It's also mentioned in prior publications as far back as BattleTech 2nd edition. In BattleTech, "magnetohydrodynamics" generate electricity. Basically, the flowing plasma circling in the fusion engine's torus acts much like the magnets on a dynamo's rotor, the magnetic fields in the plasma directly stimulating electricity in surrounding magnetic coils. Better than 90% efficiency is achieved in nice, steady states, though the power surges in combat can produce excess heat.
Magnetohydrodynamic power generation was the dream of fusion in the 1960s to 1980s, and BT was first written in the 1980s so it glommed onto that idea. However, since then real world fusion research has conceded that it's going to take a cue from fission reactors: huge amounts of neutrons from tritium-deuterium fusion will heat a circulating water jacket, providing steam for turbines at about 30-40% thermal efficiency. Wiki's articles on ITER, DEMO, and PROTO will give more details.
Pick up a copy of Tech Manual. It'll answer a lot of questions about 'Mechs and provide the modern construction rules for most common unit formats.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
03/14/23 08:38 PM
45.51.181.83
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Missed the point.
I know how myomers function. What I have not heard is how the vehicles of Battletech move when powered by a fusion engine. For an ICE, it is already rotary force to turn the wheels and such. Most of the developers seem to want to avoid saying outright if you use electric motors to change the electric energy into rotational force to turn the wheels. As this would negate the need for a heavy ICE as you could generate the electric power by generators, which means they, in turn, can be used to rotate the wheels.
The Fuel Cell is supposed to be an alternative to the ICE to move vehicles. The system hints at electric generated power sent to turn the wheels of a vehicle. Sounds like electric motors are used, as nothing else that I know of can change electric power into rotational/motive force.
The concept of the shielding/transmission unit for a fusion driven vehicle is a sore point as well. As fusion reactors do not emit radiation, as implied in the early books of the game.
There is no where that the transmission portion is said to have some sort of electric motor to drive the rotational motive system here.
And with the introduction of XL engines, the shielding/transmission can be made of the same lightweight material as the engine. Yet nothing was invented to make the ICE lighter, even though materials, such as the Internal structure, and even AC barrels can withstand the heat and impact of combat and movement.
This goes against the entire notion that research would have been done to make the ICE lighter as combat vehicles have been around far longer then mechs were. And in the 3rd war era, they were the main combat forces used, though the game focuses on mechs, as most do not want to fight in anything but stompy robots.
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Karagin
03/15/23 10:22 AM
38.48.39.237
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So we are back to the issue of why haven't we seen IC engines get lighter in Battletech, I pointed this out many times. ICE tech should not be weighing more than a Fusion-based one, but then again, this is Battletech so...
Fuel Cells...like a lot of stuff toss out with the massive "updating" it was supposed to be the simple fix, and it ended up being the Light Fusion Engine in all but name.
Maybe a break down of the IC Engines by vehicle weight would be better or type. Just an idea.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/15/23 10:36 AM
45.51.181.83
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Given that an ICE's output can be changed by the gear ratios of the transmission and rear end is only hinted at with the engineering vehicle in the game, there is some grey area here over the fusion engine set up.
But the main thing with this run is there is still no real answer on what is used to turn the powertrain of a fusion engine vehicle. Logically it would be electric motors, but nothing official on that.
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LordRuthermore
03/24/23 07:55 AM
87.139.207.118
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A fusion-powered vehicle would clearly work together with some kind of electric motor systems - not unlike Diesel-electric or Turbine-electric engines in Tanks, Ships or Trains.
What I find more interesting is what those Diesel- or Turbine-electric engines would count as in Battletech.
ICE engines in BT seem to fit with more conventional old-style real-life engines.
In the way they work, RL diesel-electric engines seem far more similar to Fuel Cell engines in BT.
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Cray
03/24/23 06:35 PM
71.47.208.18
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Quote:
A fusion-powered vehicle would clearly work together with some kind of electric motor systems - not unlike Diesel-electric or Turbine-electric engines in Tanks, Ships or Trains.
Absolutely. In BT, fusion engines on ground vehicles make electricity and then figure out a way to use the electricity to go.
In aerospace, BT fusion engines make very hot helium exhaust.
Quote:
What I find more interesting is what those Diesel- or Turbine-electric engines would count as in Battletech.
If they burn fuel directly then they're IC engines. Diesel-electric, diesel-hydraulic, diesel-pneumatic, diesel-mechanical, diesel-hamsters-in-a-cage all are IC engines as far as BT is concerned.
BT's engines - as seen in support vehicle rules, which cover everything from steam to solar - are more concerned with how power is produced than how it's delivered. Having electric motors at the end doesn't make a BT internal combustion engine similar to a BT fuel cell.
The rules show the differences. Fuel cells have options for operation underwater and in space lacking in IC engines and come with an integral heat sink lacking in ICEs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
03/24/23 11:12 PM
38.48.39.237
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Which makes the Fuel Cells low tech Light Fusion Engines
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/24/23 11:16 PM
38.48.39.237
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The bottom line is that there should be LIGHTER IC engines for the BT universe, which we don't have. Instead, somehow they got heavier. I am sure the answer we will get is the engines are a sum of all the parts line of reasoning,
It's like the same folks making mechs can't seem to take the technology skills for metals and alloys and apply them to vehicles in the areas of frames and other such elements. It's like this magic inability to cross over; very crazy when you look at it, even for this game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/25/23 12:46 PM
45.51.181.83
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Pretty much.
Given the electric motors seems the most logical solution to the fusion issue, why do you need these real life battleship turbine engines in a land combat vehicle, when a smaller one that just runs banks of amps, could do so for far less weight?
As stated with the internal structure example, the pressure and heat taken by the structure could well be used to make the IC out of. Aluminum engines are being used today, and even back when the game was being made, shows it can handle the generators/amps, at the least.
As there is NO where they tell you how much power is used to move a mech, nor a vehicle, but they do say how much amp generators are needed for what tonnage weapon, it still doesn't give all the information needed. Instillations give us the size fusion engine needed for weapons in a pillbox, but yet it doesn't give any sort of information on what is needed to power weapons in a mech. So you can take an Urbie and load it up with MLs and not worry about it, while a pillbox does. Yet the pillbox doesn't require power to walk.
Yes, I know it is dumbed down to make it easier to play.
By the way, it doesn't matter how much damage the ICE takes in combat, a single hit destroys the engine. So saying aluminum is weaker then steel doesn't really apply. Hell, this might actually make part of the crit table logical.
I can see when the materials were just started being produced, that the supplies couldn't keep up with mech production, that vehicles were excluded from using them. But there is no reason why someone buying large quantities couldn't put them in. Much like fusion engines during the 2nd and 3rd succession wars. Yet we never were told WHY certain fusion engines were built. They were never used in the mechs given in the TROs. So why weren't those factories switched over to fusion engines that were used? The 275 and 300 rated ones seemed very popular for mechs.
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ghostrider
04/03/23 08:55 PM
45.51.181.83
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Had an odd conversation come up about how bad the targeting systems on units work, when someone mentioned about the AMS system. Somehow it detects and proceeds to send out shots that can intercept missiles shot from relatively close range and shoot them down. Yes, it uses a lot of ammo, but somehow connects with some every time.
Not sure how fast the Laser AMS shoots, but this is makes the question of targeting even more absurd.
It isn't that it is unbelievable, as the AMS systems today can do so, it is just the targeting systems can not hit the unit that fired them, even something as large as a mech.
And the concept of a rotary laser system, basically an upsized system of the LAMS hasn't been made. They have a rotary cannon, but nothing with lasers. I know balancing the game is needed, but come on. The laser variant wouldn't cause the shaking the cannon version has.
But this post was meant to question why the targeting set up can not functionally hit the walking barn with any regularity. And if I know right, the AMS can hit the missiles as soon as they come out of the launch tubes. Or so one of the stories had suggested. One rule that is missing from this is no range limit to the AMS.
The TC doesn't give any sort of guarantee like this.
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Karagin
04/04/23 12:13 AM
38.48.39.237
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Remember, the game has computers on mechs and vehicles weighing in at the same weight as the weapons in tons. All in the name of game balance. Yet no improvements to the overall mech's basic sensor systems either...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
04/04/23 07:59 PM
71.47.208.18
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Quote:
Remember, the game has computers on mechs and vehicles weighing in at the same weight as the weapons in tons. All in the name of game balance. Yet no improvements to the overall mech's basic sensor systems either...
The targeting computer's mass is nominally mostly additional motors and other systems to help lay the gun, but that's still a lot of bloody weight.
And the sensors? I think you can buy cellphones with thermal imaging that has better range than a 'Mech's sensors.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
04/04/23 08:11 PM
38.48.39.237
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Quote:
Quote:
Remember, the game has computers on mechs and vehicles weighing in at the same weight as the weapons in tons. All in the name of game balance. Yet no improvements to the overall mech's basic sensor systems either...
The targeting computer's mass is nominally mostly additional motors and other systems to help lay the gun, but that's still a lot of bloody weight.
And the sensors? I think you can buy cellphones with thermal imaging that has better range than a 'Mech's sensors.
And again that is a very "company answer" Cray. Very Soviet Era-style approach to get a simple laptop-size fix to something. ENIAC would be proud and not even an 80s Cassette Futurism thing to fall back on, more of a 40s/50s thing.
Is it too much to just say FASA screwed up and dropped the ball? Or is that not allowed?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/05/23 12:10 PM
45.51.181.83
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Given the clans advanced mech designs, why wouldn't they have the extra motors and such already installed in the units? They build the omnis from the ground up. The pods for the omni system should have those in there as well, given they allow for multiple weapons to be fitted into them, to change the weapons used in said unit.
It isn't like the 80's didn't have better targeting in military units then the game shows.
But I do like the admitting that todays cell phones have better tech then the 3025-3100 era 'super' weapons.
FASA and the companies that came after, did drop the ball on more then a few things. Some, I can accept, though disagree with the route, that they had to avoid getting closer to say robotech for things.
From a lot of the earlier novels and other stories, it makes is sound like mechs were unwieldy, units that were more likely to trip over their own feet, then hit something the size of another mech with a weapon. Yet some of them have pilots doing acrobats and hitting a fly with a throwing star at a full kilometer.
Though I am interested in if they will come out with a rotary laser set up, like the super ranges AMS, with larger lasers, such as an ML. Figure less heat, due to the barrels causing a fan type of effect.
Vehicles are another version of this story here. We know from real history, tanks have been able to hit each other a mile away while both are moving at a good pace.
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ghostrider
04/20/23 12:24 AM
45.51.181.83
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So how many people were killed by Comstar during the succession wars, as almost all good techs worth their weight, could basically build fusion engines and such from scratch?
Or did this concept slip the developers minds?
Making molds to repair parts that couldn't be found on the markets, would have been something they all would have to do from time to time. As fusion engines have at least 2 parts that come together in order to work on, as well as just build, the engine itself, it shouldn't be ruled out.
I know ICE come with the block in one cast, but it isn't sealed. The pistons and everything else can be installed and removed without having to open up the block itself.
Fusion engines would have to be enclosed, to prevent issues with the magnetic bottle used to keep the plasma in place.
Weapons would be the same way. Granted, getting the crystals for the laser barrels and making them fit correctly would be more difficult, all the electronics needed would be known. Otherwise, field repairs couldn't be possible. They would all have to be sent into the factory for all repairs otherwise.
I will also grant that getting the equipment needed for some repairs would be extremely hard to get, and easy to follow to the end buyer, but it isn't impossible. There is more then a few stories of full factories being built on worlds without even Comstar knowing about it.
And we won't even got into the hidden sites in unknown/uninhabited systems, as that is mainly large companies/houses.
I am not trying to say tech wouldn't be lost, as it would be restricted to few people, and I would think any that showed they knew how would be targets for all, but with all the stories of techs making factories, there has to be someone that knows how to without the houses/Comstar knowing about it during the succession wars. Even finding factories that still work would have boasted tech, like found caches should have allowed SL tech to be made before the Helm Core.
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ghostrider
04/21/23 12:14 PM
45.51.181.83
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For those wanting a little more realism in the game, I would suggest that any unit that has been jury rigged, gain a penalty for future repairs to that area, until a full refit, meaning replacing the area with new parts, as most jury rigged repairs would replace standard parts with off sized ones.
An example would be, an arm being blown off, might well have bolts that secure it to the torso, being destroyed or the bolt holes being ripped apart so badly, larger sized bolts are used or a bracket had to be fabricated, but missing some points that would allow easier changing of a weapon system or something like it.
This is especially true if a different mech's parts are used, IE grafting a Griffin arm onto an Shadow Hawk.
As for an omni unit, this is up for debate. This should also include clan made mechs until they leave clan possession during the invasion time. Once the IS clans are kicked out, then jury rigging would probably start, as parts specifically made for that unit would dry up.
This is only a suggestion. Probably better to just ignore it, as it makes life a little more difficult for those that want the extra reality call. Just came to mind, and wanted to put it out there.
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ghostrider
05/09/23 12:40 AM
45.51.181.83
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Can something like a claw be mounted to a mechs head?
The response given in one thread has me thinking of doing just that. Allowing a mech to bite another mech. Maybe make it a punch location sort of thing, unless it is a quad biting or being bit.
It just sounds funny, and might cause a few panic attacks by an enemy pilot.
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Karagin
05/09/23 01:09 AM
38.48.39.237
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Claws are arm only as far as I am aware, but that could have changed with the insanity of the rules depending one which books you are looking in since we have to wade through 5 different books to get what used to all be in a single book to play this game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/20/23 11:27 AM
45.51.181.83
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The statement of targeting computers are more motors and stuff had me thinking.
Since the AES system does that with arms, does that means the weapons targeting issues can be solved by more/better 'focusing' equipment?
Which sounds a bit odd, as the torso weapons have such a wide arc, compared to something implied, such as they do not swivel or have some sort of gimble system.
The solution would seem to be adding in some more fine tuning hardware, which causes the question on why they are not already installed, or even hinted at?
Would the number of joints in the arms change how much fine tuning the system could have?
Say a Stalker or Urbanmech have a worse time focusing arm weapons on an enemy, while something like a Marauder would have an easier time? The segmented 'ball joints' the arms of the Marauder should allow a better focus of the 'hand' weapons on it.
Newer models and mechs should already have researched issues of targeting, and have some set up that is more accurate then the 'cobbled together' old units from the dark time of the succession wars.
The idea that 4 MLs scattered across a mechs body can be made as accurate as a single large laser with the same weight for the refining servo motors sounds off. And this gets even worse when you get into ballistics. As the TC doesn't require it even be housed in the same location as the weapons it is helping.
I understand the keep is simple motto.
But let's face it. You should be hard pressed to miss a 12 meter tall unit that is 30 meters away from you with a weapon. Yes minimums do change this some.
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Karagin
05/20/23 12:34 PM
38.48.39.237
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AES reminds me more of gyrostabilizers than anything else. Agan things would have already been built into the mechs structure to start with, but hey, even the 80s tech things were based on that since the M1 tank had it for the main gun, along with the Leopard, Challenger, and others.
Then again, 80% of the "new" tech that came about with the Jihad/Dark Age crap seemed to be as if many of the staff, new writers, and some of the old at FASA/FANPRO/WIZKIDS all discovered military tech manuals or found books about how military tech worked, liked it and threw it against the game and what stuck they went forward with. The equipment from the old Tactical Handbook (THB) that was brought forward was not done so in a manner that made much since the Clans would not have an equivalent of much of it. I believe a lot of this came down to a rush to get things out, laziness, and other issues behind the scenes.
Couple that with what is clearly a push to downgrade the Clans to be more on par with the Inner Sphere tech-wise, yet at the same time, the push to upgrade the Inner Sphere tech-wise, made things look both asinine and less believable story-wise.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/21/23 12:30 PM
45.51.181.83
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They introduced sponsons into the game, but those don't help aim.
It starts looking like weapons arcs only exist by moving the body part to face that direction. That the concept of gimbles don't exist in the game world. And yet, that simple thing would dramatically increase the ability to target the enemy.
Not sure if the developers wanted aiming nerfed so badly, that physical attacks seem to be a better choice then ranged weapons.
This is supposed to be future warfare. The ability to hit something is almost more important then the damage caused, yet it seems worse then even the abilities in the 80's.
It is even more suspicious that the clans never increased the machines ability to aim.
Along with this, the targeting systems on a mech are supposed to lock onto a target, but yet the gunners skills determine if they hit or not. So does the weapons of war, such as tanks and mechs, use iron sights?
Or do they actually use computers to lock onto targets?
There is no penalties for using iron sights to hit a target in an ECM field, which the computers don't recognize.
So if someone can explain this, I would like to hear it.
As a side note, the streak systems fluff says they can lock onto objects like rocks and trees. And all missiles hit that target, but they don't help with targeting. So technically, they always lock onto something. The 'tone' of a lock doesn't tell you what it is.
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greyknight683
05/21/23 02:58 PM
172.58.242.6
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i have a question im not sure where this would go as im new to the forum but not to battletech i am a third generation mechwarrior my grandfather and his brother my dad and now me... so my question has to do with ancestral mechs my dad is the only one who is into battletech in his generation of my family and im the only one in my generation... so if my grandfather and his brother die would both of their mechs go to my dad and then my dad dies would all three battle mechs be passed to me
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ghostrider
05/21/23 03:45 PM
45.51.181.83
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That depends on a few factors.
The inheritance method looks like the first born normally gets the goods, so to speak. That means even if they couldn't actually use a mech, they would be the ones to inherit it. Wills can change things somewhat, but if the one that would normally inherit it creates an issue, they may well find a way to disown you from the family.
Now depending on local lords, they might well decide to step in and confiscate the unit. It is unusual, but not unheard of. It may well be because the family owes the government back taxes or some such thing. The possession of the planet might influence this as well. Living on a border world that has recently changed hands, could well prevent the mech from going to family.
Criminal activity could well prevent the exchange as well. Your father or even you could be charged with crimes, whether innocent or not, and prevent the hand over. Other family members could well have a claim or fake one.
Battle could remove the unit(s) as well. The storage facility gets destroyed or even outright theft or seizure could happen.
If you have a GM that runs the games, this is something they could deal with, or just allow you to inherit the unit(s) without any issues.
One more thing that could happen is someone trades or sells the unit before you get it. This obviously means you don't get it, but this does try to cover a few more things that could prevent it.
Another is having a sibling that is wanting the unit and is the favorite of the 'current owner' of the unit. They could well give it to another family member.
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greyknight683
05/21/23 05:26 PM
172.58.242.6
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my dad is the only child in his gen and im the only one in mine so if nothing prevents it i could very well end up with 3 ancestral mechs one for each of my family members
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ghostrider
05/21/23 05:45 PM
45.51.181.83
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So each generation has an ancestral mech? That is odd, since most of the time it is a single mech, for a family, that isn't being used at the moment. But it isn't like there is an exact definition to it.
Given there seems to be three mechs in the family, it is a bit surprising that you don't already have your own. It is odd that there is no merc unit already formed using those units. But again, that is more with a common theme.
As said before, if something unknown doesn't happen, then you may well inherit all 3, but it is more likely that they will not all die before another heir comes forward, or someone along another branch of the family doesn't try to gain access to at least one of them. Even a spouse could put forth a claim to any or all of them and start a problem. Their siblings could try. But this isn't likely.
This is also assuming the spouse's didn't already have a child before marrying into the family.
I will assume that all mechs are currently used, as they have not already been given to you yet. If not in use, and you don't already have one, would be odd as well. That is IF your character is old enough to pilot one.
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ghostrider
05/24/23 03:35 AM
45.51.181.83
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How does gunnery skill and the main targeting computer systems work together?
As asked before, if the target system does that actual locking of weapons on target, how does the pilots gunnery skill affect this?
I can see possibly helping the system lock on faster, but in the end, the system is the one that does the work.
Or does a skilled pilot ignore the system and fire with iron sights?
This looks like someone with an 8 gunnery skill would use the target system to hit more often then their skill would let them, IE making their skill better, while a 2 gunnery skill pilot might be far worse using the target system.
As stated before, the streak system doesn't help with targeting, just having all munitions hit. And not even in the same location. Yet it could well be the system locked onto a tree or rock near the target, yet the gunner shouldn't know this until the shots are fired.
The extra targeting computer helps with locking, and can even target specific spots with direct fire weapons.
Yet after hundreds of years of warfare, the manufacturers still have not done anything to help this. Even in the 80s, the ability to hit moving targets with large weapons is better then the game.
Did the developers want the rock'em sock'em robots concept to win out over sitting at range and using the weapons?
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Requiem
05/24/23 08:03 AM
1.158.143.92
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Suggested Ans:
Refer: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Neurohelmet
“By focusing on these easily translatable signals, the neurohelmet can help communicate a pilot's intentions to the DI computer …. Learning to read a pilot's brainwaves accurately is a slow process though, particularly if a MechWarrior is using a new 'Mech for the very first time.”
Refer - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Battle_Computer_(Component)
“The Battle Computer is a computer system located in the cockpit of every BattleMech. The battle computer is responsible for interpreting data received from the 'Mech's Targeting-Tracking System and Diagnostic Interpretation Computer, turning it into useful information which the MechWarrior can understand, and coordinating the overall movement and fire of the 'Mech in combat. When a pilot aims her reticle at a target and gives the command for a weapon to fire, it is the battle computer which carries out this order.”
Thus data from neurohelmet to Battle Computer – pilot’s command for a weapon to fire requires experience – hence the gunnery skill progression from bad to mediocre to good.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/24/23 09:38 AM
38.48.39.237
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Quote:
Did the developers want the rock'em sock'em robots concept to win out over sitting at range and using the weapons?
The game was originally set to play on the dining room table, it grew into playing on larger areas. It started out simple, then became complex, but the rock'em sock'em part never went away since the simple range concept was kept.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/23 08:50 PM
45.51.181.83
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Still looking for an explanation on how gunnery skills work with targeting computers.
It would also help if someone could tell me how a gyro and a neural helm work on mechs like the Thunderbolt, as you sit above the left torso. A piloting roll would be multiple time harder, as your sense of balance would not be centered over the legs, but off to one side.
They do look kinda of decent, but kinda of breaks the concepts.
The idea that starting up gyros while laying down doesn't make sense that the unit doesn't have issues once standing.
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miguel
06/08/23 08:54 AM
46.229.57.126
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Quote:
Suggested Ans:
Refer: https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Neurohelmet
“By focusing on these easily translatable signals, the neurohelmet can help communicate a pilot's intentions to the DI computer …. Learning to read a pilot's brainwaves accurately is a slow process though, particularly if a MechWarrior is using a new 'Mech for the very first time.”
Refer - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Battle_Computer_(Component)
“The Battle Computer is a computer system located in the cockpit of every BattleMech. The battle computer is responsible for interpreting data received from the 'Mech's Targeting-Tracking System and Diagnostic Interpretation Computer, turning it into useful information which the MechWarrior can understand, and coordinating the overall movement and fire of the 'Mech in combat. When a pilot aims her reticle at a target and gives the command for a weapon to fire, it is the battle computer which carries out this order.”
Thus data from neurohelmet to Battle Computer – pilot’s command for a weapon to fire requires experience – hence the gunnery skill progression from bad to mediocre to good.
Yes, you're correct. In the context of BattleTech, the Battle Computer serves as the central processing unit located within the cockpit of a BattleMech. Its primary function is to process and interpret the data received from various systems within the 'Mech, such as the Targeting-Tracking System and Diagnostic Interpretation Computer.
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ghostrider
06/08/23 11:48 AM
45.51.181.83
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As the targeting computer locks onto targets, it does so with the input of multiple systems. That is known. What isn't clear is how a pilots gunnery skill affects this, with one exception. Using the 'iron sights' method, where the pilot just overrides the computers firing solution.
I can see gunnery skill helping the computer to lock onto a target faster, but in the end, the computer manages the lock.
This question came up during a game where someone asked how does a pilot with 8 gunnery skill miss so much? The computer tells when the weapon(s) are locked or not. If not locked, then the pilot wouldn't fire the weapon. A single weapon would be easy to determine from the 'locked' tone to fire. Multiple weapons would be more difficult to determine if they locked.
A decent example would be a Panther pilot using just the PPC. The tone would tell if it is locked. This is not saying the computer is infallible, but the fact it is better then a low skilled pilot would suggest there is a minimum to hit number, even if very poorly trained pilot were firing a weapon. So if 4 gun is considered normal, 5-8 gun should match this with the computer doing it's job.
The issue with gyros starting when the unit is in a position other then straight up, is the gyro start up would not be done on a 'level' plane. And with this, some people may well have their heads cocked to one side or even to far forward if they are reaching for something. The spinning flywheels would start spinning on what would be considered down. Even just leaning on a wall would throw off the system after it is running, as it would suggest being straight up, would actually be off balance.
If it was just based on the pilot's balance, then the gyro system is unnecessary. Granted, the gyros is to help return the mech to balance, as the gyros would allow you to 'push or throw' the multi-ton unit back into place.
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ghostrider
06/21/23 05:53 PM
45.51.181.83
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Another scenario that has come up and been used is a random roll to see if a large body of water was too rough for hover craft to be used on.
This came about from several scenarios that dealt with rescue missions. It really didn't affect land units, but to see if some hovers could be used to flank or even land behind the enemies defenses that were occupied by the other forces trying to get in.
It really changed tactics, and before it is said, the anti air was more then enough to take down aircraft. They were set up so they could not fire at units below level 3. The buildings prevented this, with the sea side being able to fire almost to the water level within 150 meters. Torpedoes covered surface and subs would have a difficult time getting close.
There was a time limit set, representing reinforcements being sent.
The hovers were still used to load up hostages, if you could slip them into the compound.
We have been discussing using other things like mist or fog to determine things like this.
The scenarios are set up so you either go, or fail. None of this complaining and waiting for a clear/calm day to run it.
Sometimes campaigns are a real pain.
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ghostrider
08/19/23 05:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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Seen a video explaining lightning.
It stated the heat generated by a bolt can be up to 10 times the surface of the sun.
This leads to questions about a PPC and how much heat it actually generates. I doubt there will be anything close to being realistic about it, but is there anywhere that tells just how much heat it does generate?
I am assuming the ER variant produces more then the standard version, which is more then the manpack version.
I will also assume the naval versions are even more potent with the heat then the ground versions.
This comes about as the discussion about nukes and how how they burn, could well be less heat then a ppc/lightning bolt generates.
Curious on if this hypothesis is accurate, or just so far out of the park as to be a good laugh.
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ghostrider
02/13/24 09:10 PM
45.51.181.83
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Had a question come up about deep space jump points. Is there any locations that came be used to discuss how they are used?
The two main ones that have come up are the Camelot Command one, and the jump point used to start the Turian Concordat.
The Camelot one could not have been found thru using normal telescopes and such, as the gravity fields would not support such a find, while the Turan spot is not listed as a system, but a point outside the nebula the 4 systems are in.
The nebula suggests a huge asteroid and dust field that has to be navagated thru to get there.
Given this, there has to be more points that can/are used, or is this some future story line?
The suggested use of jump points is enough gravity to help pull a ship out of hyperspace, but not so much as it rips the ship apart.
More then a few stories use such points, but very little is said about them.
As a side note, can you jump into the nebula, now that is has been established? Or are you still stuck flying thru the asteroid field?
Edited by ghostrider (02/13/24 09:25 PM)
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ghostrider
02/14/24 02:03 PM
45.51.181.83
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The idea of a large man made station being made, or even bringing in asteroids that will be connected, has come up, and the group was looking for some answers. The Ice ships came up, though we are leery that the stress might weaken the asteroids structure to a point that it would break apart after a short while.
Then the idea of just using the asteroids 'dirt' to make the complex look like an asteroid, covering what lies under it, as well as 'hiding' turrets and such.
Oddly enough, this came from our D&D campaign dealing with the spell jammer line.
Yes, the only real lighting would come from normal energy generation, as well as all items on board.
Yardships could have been/be used to create a frame work for it.
I would be expensive to make, but once built, could provide some great 'secret' repair facilities. Maybe even just increasing the size of a regular space station could suffice.
Just need information on the deep space jump point locations. Someone had to do something odd to find where to build Camelot Command at. It isn't like it has a star or something that would have brought it's location to the forefront.
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Karagin
02/14/24 09:24 PM
38.48.37.18
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It is feasible that the issues might be matching the speed of the object and getting the cables attached. and then have the power to move it, but that can be overcome with the right amount of engineering, money, and time.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/14/24 09:43 PM
45.51.181.83
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Once you start slowing down an object, it gets easier to slow it down more. With no motive force, just inertia, the pull lessens.
I would figure the game has ships that capture asteroids, making it easier to mine them. Nothing that shows up in TROs, which might be an interesting design to make.
I half figured using the ice ship method of moving some asteroids. They had to be able to slow, and move asteroids to and from jump points. Having it fall apart isn't a huge problem if you are not using it for the main structure.
But would like some information on finding deep space places where jumping is possible. The alternative is losing ships doing random jumps, which is not an option.
Using the canon Camelot, someone had to find the location. Just don't have the information on how, other then a misjump.
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Karagin
02/14/24 11:57 PM
38.48.37.18
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I don't believe the asteroid will survive intact via a jump.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/15/24 12:20 AM
45.51.181.83
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Not sure either. But the ice ships were able to move asteroids without destroying much of them. As stated, if they don't survive entirely intact, it isn't a huge problem. Chunks of material can be used to make farms, if that is all that is left of them.
Size may well be the key here. Making 'prefab' asteroid shells, which can be connected to each other to form a larger structure could be done, if that is required. Much like prefab stations or terrestrial houses.
But it isn't necessary to make the shell of a station. You may be able to find something nearby, as not all asteroids are inside solar systems.
Finding a stable jump point outside of a solar system was the point of the question. Technically, it might be nothing more then a 'farm' for ice asteroids. Start them by freezing a small amount of water, and letting the universe add to it. Research bases also come to mind here. Limit the amount of shipments to it, should help keep the location quiet. Even if it is nothing more then a simple stop along a trade route, so it isn't so obvious. Not all ships use standard inhabited systems. It could be written off as the route went thru an uninhabited system.
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Requiem
02/15/24 04:25 AM
1.158.235.121
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The following may help?
Sarna search “Asteroid Belt” – 21 Results.
Sarna Search “Camelot Command” – Dark Nebula / the base itself.
Sarna search “Space Stations” – Provides a list of known Stations.
Clans – Caliban Nebula
Taurian – Hyades Cluster / Hyades Asteroid field etc.
Sarna Search “Kuiper Belt” – Belters and Long Baseline Facility-3
The Expanse Wiki “Belter”
Sarna search – Stella Geographic Magazine
Sarna Search – Heimdall (Organisation) – In the year 3025, a cell of Heimdall operating in Combine space, on a mining asteroid in the Styk system … Silver Eagle Incident …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/15/24 09:44 AM
38.48.37.18
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Quote:
Not sure either. But the ice ships were able to move asteroids without destroying much of them. As stated, if they don't survive entirely intact, it isn't a huge problem. Chunks of material can be used to make farms, if that is all that is left of them.
Size may well be the key here. Making 'prefab' asteroid shells, which can be connected to each other to form a larger structure could be done, if that is required. Much like prefab stations or terrestrial houses.
But it isn't necessary to make the shell of a station. You may be able to find something nearby, as not all asteroids are inside solar systems.
Finding a stable jump point outside of a solar system was the point of the question. Technically, it might be nothing more then a 'farm' for ice asteroids. Start them by freezing a small amount of water, and letting the universe add to it. Research bases also come to mind here. Limit the amount of shipments to it, should help keep the location quiet. Even if it is nothing more then a simple stop along a trade route, so it isn't so obvious. Not all ships use standard inhabited systems. It could be written off as the route went thru an uninhabited system.
That might be the place to start for your group and go from there.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/15/24 12:06 PM
45.51.181.83
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We were thinking about it. But looking for information on how to find a spot without a misjump scenario. Most misjumps into uninhabited systems tends to be a death sentence, as most damage deals with the cores being damaged and leaking coolant.
I take it, this topic isn't covered, even in possibles, in the rule books. And no. I am not going to do the super jump garbage from the jihad. I can see expanding the jump range some, but not be more then double normal jumps, if even that far.
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Karagin
02/15/24 04:19 PM
38.48.37.18
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I don't recall seeing anything; Interstellar part would be the place to start looking, though,
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/17/24 07:49 PM
45.51.181.83
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Had more questions come up about canon in things like video games.
Depending on how close to canon some of the games are, how much did the Star League know about solar systems beyond the IS and periphery?
In Mechwarrior 5 Mercenaries, the story line has more then a few huge areas mapped out and known by the Star League, that seemed to be unknown in the canon board game.
Parts of the original exodus route, seemed to be detailed, as well as a few other areas. But yet, the original Exodus route was implied to have been mapped only as the SLDF fleet was running from the 1st succession war. I'm not quite sure how much of the Kerenski cluster was known, but some star systems around that area seem to have been known.
Also, with the games and novels, it seems like several 'lost' bases had enough equipment to field a few regiments of mechs, along with the dropships to move them all. I know they had to leave behind a lot of equipment, but from the sounds of it, there is far too much that was left behind.
The Crescent Hawks, being one of the first games to have suggested this, with Helm being another. The entire Wolf's Dragoons secret mission, not finding all of those known to the clans, as more then a few other units found enough to explode in size and technology.
Interstellar Expeditions has been mentioned in the wiki in a few articles outside of the game. So it either was in canon before the game, and put in there, or was made canon after the game. I don't know which.
Is there somewhere, that actually tells just how much equipment was left behind? Even a simple estimate on just how much was left behind. Given all the bases left, there was no reason why some SLDF units were not fully outfitted with high tech, as the money side of it doesn't add up.
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Karagin
02/17/24 09:27 PM
38.48.37.18
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Who will keep the high-tech stuff running when the factories to make are gone or are prime targets for 200 hundred years? As for the video games, those weren't "canon" until something from them was pulled into the main game, and then only that. Opinions seem to differ on that point, but again, that was the case. Money would add up when the cost is higher than replacing items with cheaper off-the-shelf stuff.
As for the rest, it's up to you seems to be the take, if you want third-party things to be canon go for it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/17/24 10:13 PM
45.51.181.83
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The problem with the high tech stuff, is the elite units, such as the Black Watch, would have the high tech units. If they could leave so many mechs and such, then they would have had to have the funds to make the extreme units. This is not for most units. Just the top tier.
Keeping the high tech items in stock during the succession wars, is a bit tricky. The standard 3025 tech was used by all. The lostech would be the question. As discussed before, most units could not reliably hit walking barns as 30 meters, much less further.
Continuity is the problem with saying the games and novels are canon, yet they are not labled as non canon anywhere in the game/book. This hits a little about another thread. The problem here is anyone that doesn't have all the information, should think the games follow the rules/lore.
Granted, this goes back to not really proofing either.
A few books suggested heat seeking missles can wipe out aerofighters with a single missile. If so, why bother with the srm/lrms? Why rely on tube artillery to try and take out a target, when a non nuke missile/bomb can do so for far less?
Yes, the concept means no game.
But the idea of so many bases being left by the SLDF, shows a few issues with this. Nukes were used to destroy so much before the SLDF left. Then destroyed so much. But the abilities of non nuclear items could very well have done the same thing, without destroying worlds with radiation.
But keeping to the point, the bases are an issue. So many were missed, yet so many more were found and looted. Makes you think the SLDF had bases in almost every city, that contained 3 or more regiments worth of mechs, with 5 or more tanks. And only the mechs are of concern.
Might answer this with just asking, but how much thought was put in suggesting the amount of bases around the IS was there? I know only the developers can honestly and fully answer that. Still, the point keeps coming up with new books. Video games are always going to be based on major rewards, and little can match a regiment worth of untouched mechs.
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Karagin
02/18/24 12:34 PM
38.48.37.18
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Having the funds and having the factories are not the same thing. I can have a ton of money, but if the other side keeps blowing up my factories, my efforts are net zero on getting my unit's high-tech toys. Yes, I can stockpile things, but those things will run out due to attrition over time.
Not every SLDF base left will have military gear, and not all will be usable. Sure, a tank or mech might be there, but the odds of it being fully functional will be slim to none. That makes for a boring story for the reader who wants a fast-paced hero who always wins pulp fiction action. Many of the SLDF bases left were likely small unit bases that weren't that important, and the ones that tripped over were forgotten because no one knew they were there to start with.
The Clans only went after the ones they still had records for, so even their records weren't one hundred percent on point in this matter. The Dragoons were also tasked to find the bases, hence the whole Snord's mission, which wasn't a complete success.
The novels expand the backstory of the game, the game is the game, the issue with canon is that the lore is not treated as it's own thing with regards to third-party enities.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/18/24 03:37 PM
45.51.181.83
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The money statement was for the SLDF. They had the facilities and were making the high tech without much of an issue. The 'homeguard' units would have been set up to have the best tech out of the entire SLDF. Granted, Amaris would have had access to most of that when he killed Richard, but a few units still there, including the Blackwatch, should have been full high tech. All units would have had double sinks, with the high tech variants of things like medium lasers and such.
I do understand the IS during the succession wars, not having access to the equipment, though it is odd that factories on the capital worlds were not the best defended in the states. Defiance would have probably been the best defended, though most of their slow downs, or work stoppages would not be from local issues, but off world supply issues.
Most of the SLDF bases that were known before the 1st war, and even during the Amaris war, would have been stripped. It was pretty well stated before Kerensky left. It seems a bit redundant that the story bases found seem to be major bases that were uncovered only recently. More then a few were kilometers in size, with most having some sort of large dropships at the base. You don't often see one that was for a company or under. For a unit just starting out, a battalion of mechs is beyond what they could handle, so a lance, or even 2 is more then enough.
I doubt Snord was the only one's sent on the scouting missions for the Dragoons. They made the best public face for it. Until they were explained to be clan, most thought they were just lucky in their finds.
The question of just how much the SLDF knew of the galaxy beyond the Periphery still stands. One major question comes up on if Kerensky knew of his end location before they set out? Or were they going elsewhere, only to have circumstances change their route, such as finding some deep space exploration craft from the houses, such as the DC or FS?
The running of clan Wolverine might add to this idea.
It is possible that Kerensky turned left instead of right at one point, which is why the Wolverines did their run they way they did. Might be the distination was not able to handle the size of the exodus fleet, so they didn't go that way.
But it would be nice to have more information on what the SLDF knew of the 'unknown' galaxy around the periphery.
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ghostrider
03/28/24 12:46 AM
45.51.181.83
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Had a question come up about mechs carrying things.
Is there a penalty for carrying elementals on mechs? They are supposed to slow down when carrying weight beyond their normal unit.
So 2.5 tons of elementals on say a Fire Moth or even a Kit Fox should slow it down some.
Or was that not thought of when the clans were invented?
The 2.5 tons comes from the impression that each elemental is .5 tons. Been a while, so this might be wrong.
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Karagin
03/28/24 12:57 AM
38.48.37.18
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I am a bit rusty about that rule, to be honest. My group rarely uses it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/29/24 02:10 AM
45.51.181.83
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Ok. The wiki says they are 1000 kg. That is a little over 2,200 pounds.
So over a ton each. With 5 of them, that is over 10 tons.
I had forgot the wiki has stats like this.
So for a Firemoth, they are over half of it's weight. Even a Direwolf, that is 10 percent of it's weight.
Also, wouldn't the weight of a unit of elementals cause a piloting skill roll, or at least a penalty from one, if swarming a mech? (yeah, getting picky here)
Do elementals drop like mechs from orbit?
Or are they more limited, such as lower atmosphere?
I will assume they are not attached to mechs as they drop. Something about the troopers not trusting the mechwarriors ability to avoid crashing from a drop.
Edited by ghostrider (03/29/24 02:12 AM)
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Karagin
03/29/24 02:54 AM
38.48.37.18
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I am going with the idea that originally it was a cool idea, and the Omnimechs had surface mounts for the Battleamror that allowed the suits to attach that was there at no cost. Then someone said not fair in a playtest so the rules were thrown out to "balance" things and somewhere the math wasn't really solved for a real test.
That's a guess. Most of the time I have seen anyone use it, they have run a point of battlearmor, aka 5 total suits on one mech. Each BA is 1 ton, so again the math is off somewhere.
Are the numbers off for the Battletech game, the Mechwarrior game, Clantroops? Battletroops? Which game system s the wiki going on? Is the wiki even right to start with?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/29/24 11:55 AM
45.51.181.83
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The original information for elementals did say all omni mechs had handholds, but I don't remember seeing anything about needing any extra weight to put them on non omni mechs, or even vehicles. The Dragoons were designing an APC to transport elementals during their civil war novel.
Now this is for the original invasion elemental. Since then, other forms of battle armor have shown up, which are different weights.
The issue with the armor comes from weighing down a mech, affecting the speed of the unit. This should also affect any jump distance as well.
As I don't have access to most other 'rules' for power armor, I am running on the quick information of the wiki right now, I couldn't say if it is right or not. I know there is rules for making custom armor, and wouldn't be surprised if the elemental armor is over a ton. Technically, the srm launcher is a ton on it's own, though it only having 4 missiles might classify it as a one shot, so half ton. The small laser would be a half ton, with a half ton of armor might suggest 2 tons or more. Yes, they changed the weights some to work better with the power armor setting. I am running on the mech construction rules on this statement.
And this does not include the other things required to run the power armor, like the jets, anti personnel weapons, and power source.
I know. It all runs on magic. Logic does not exist in the game.
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