ghostrider
02/14/20 12:54 AM
66.74.60.165
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How is 5 worlds you can use the same as having 100 worlds you can use for detecting supply routes? This is a very large logic fail. Which of the 100 worlds are they using this run? Empty systems work well for avoiding notice, and really screws up someone trying to lay an ambush. Then having forces guarding such supplies makes it that much harder. You like numbers. Well there you go. 5 does not equal 100. Don't care how poor math skills are. It just doesn't work.
The hitting supply routes might work in the alt, but that is only if you have the resources. And to be honest, those resources would be better used to destroy and repulse the clans forces. Hitting supplies is fine, but the amount you are dedicating to this is more wasteful then not. All those troops in space, burning fuel and holding resources needed elsewhere.
Oh yeah. When waiting in ambush at a systems point, you have a 50/50 chance of being right for that system. That is IF they don't use pirate points, or just double jump. There are two points to jump into.
The only way the Ilkhan could avoid challenges for worlds would be to dis ban all the other clans. Otherwise you could not stop the other clans from coming into the IS.
The whole bidding system then keeping the clans that didn't win out of the IS wouldn't have held. That is one of the bigger holes in the invasion. To be told you can't even try to become the ilclan since only 4 clans could do so, would NOT have gone thru the council. Even trials of refusals or grievances would not end it as all the clans would be fighting to make sure they would have the chance. So all clans would have invaded. That is your reality that you don't want, as it would mean the LC portion of the FC would have been devoured as well as possible the Draconis March in the FS. The DC would have fallen to allow the FS to be hit. Not much they could do about it. And there would be no year of peace. The FRR would have been destroyed, as more forces, and the ilkhan would not have been there to watch.
The clan warriors fight for the legacy to be continued in the future thru the Iron Wombs. That has been from the time the clans were formed. So it makes the idea that Katherine changed their outlook even more likely. You wanted Psy-ops, what there is a huge one for you.
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Requiem
02/14/20 02:41 AM
1.158.235.15
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Well there you go. 5 does not equal 100. Don't care how poor math skills are. It just doesn't work.
Using Mathematics
Do we know where the Clans Logistics fleets arrive within the IS?
Can we work backwards based upon probability where they are jumping from to arrive into the IS? Where would be the best place to recharge – what sun type within rand would offer the best recharge time?
What is the probability of this being accurate?
Do we know their schedule time for when they arrive – is there a pattern that can be discerned – can we work backwards to work out when they arrive in this identified system one jump away?
Using IS People
Using former pirates who fled from the Clans consider their point of view as to where they may consider the point of recharge would be.
Using Clan People
Defectors from the Clans – information provided on debrief.
Using Technology
Put a satellite in this system to detect any incoming Jump-Ships – information stored indicates time of arrival, date and position – or it provides no data at all – so move it to the next likely system and try again.
Using spies / commandoes
Penetration raids to gain Clan information held on their computers etc.
Identifying and kidnapping the correct Clan people working on their Jump-Ships.
As per 4th SW – use your Lyran orphans to disable and penetrate a ship in order to gain the Navi Computer on a merchantman.
And when you add it all together a good intel officer can work it out ….. consider Midway!
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And to be honest, those resources would be better used to destroy and repulse the clans forces.
If that was so then why did anyone build the submarine?
The Clans have a six month logistics trip from Clan space – that is incredibly long – we have the same situation as US to UK run, UK to Russia run and various Asian ports to Japan during WW2
Did anyone say this was a waste of resources?
Plus if you can capture an entire Clan Logistics Fleet – what would that mean to their advancing forces – consumables, replacement personnel, replacement parts, weapons, medicines etc. – and what would that mean to your forces if you can retrofit your forces with their weapons?
The gain is worth the risk. (plus it is a fun game!)
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The whole bidding system then keeping the clans that didn't win out of the IS wouldn't have held.
Then why did it work for the Canon history of the Clan’s Invasion?
Why didn’t the Home Clans just pack their bags and send forces to the IS?
Why – they lost the trials and the bidding – which is a central tenant to clan law and philosophy.
If you want an Alt Universe where all the Clans attack – fine – write it up and present it.
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The clan warriors fight for the legacy to be continued in the future thru the Iron Wombs.
Correct.
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So it makes the idea that Katherine changed their outlook even more likely.
How? Here is where you lose me. Please explain.
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You wanted Psy-ops, what there is a huge one for you.
Since when did the Clan have a psy-ops division …
Or are you suggesting that Katherine’s LA Psy-ops team was so effective that they changed the clans entire way of life, they gave up on all the tenants both Kerensky’s gave them?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/14/20 04:13 AM
66.74.60.165
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Do we know where the Clans Logistics fleets arrive within the IS?
Can we work backwards based upon probability where they are jumping from to arrive into the IS? Where would be the best place to recharge – what sun type within rand would offer the best recharge time?
What is the probability of this being accurate?
Do we know their schedule time for when they arrive – is there a pattern that can be discerned – can we work backwards to work out when they arrive in this identified system one jump away?
Funny. I said this about finding the clans home worlds without the exodus road map and got told it couldn't happen.
What changed? (I know, but want to see if you will admit it)
Why did they build a submarine? Really? You don't know that the first silent strike capabilities is why they were created? Use correctly, they can take down several ships before being spotted, then able to run from those without depth charges. Also they were changed over to allowing spec ops to infiltrate enemy shores.
So you finally got it. Katherine's 'charms' showed the clan leaders at least, that having their own kingdom that others don't tell you what to do, is a Psy-op, though it wasn't planned that way. Up until the IS invasion, and even thru it, the only goal for a clan warrior was to pass on their genes. Now they get shown that there is more to life then just that. But it isn't the LA, but Katherine when she was taken by Vlad. Once he started working on a kingdom, others seen it and followed suit.
And the clan history worked out the way the entire game does. TPTB wanted it that way. Odd that you are defending that scenario as you are complaining about realism in the game. It is not realistic that 13 or so clans will just sit back and be denied the chance to be the ilclan. How did you put it? The Mongol way would not allow this sort of action?
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Requiem
02/14/20 07:36 AM
1.158.235.15
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Do we know where the Clans Logistics fleets arrive within the IS?
Any Internal deliveries via drop-ship will be noted by partisan forces upon any Clan held world – schedules can be contemplated. Commando forces can be arranged ….
Drop-ships can also be captured – computer cores analyzed – the ship itself can be used as a Trojan Horse when taking over a Jump-ship for their Navi Comp as well as the ship itself, the crew and any other Drop-ships (and their cargo) attached to the Jump-ship.
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I said this about finding the clans home worlds without the exodus road map and got told it couldn't happen.
What changed?
With the exodus road you are looking at multiple jump points working backwards, the time taken to compute and work out every possibility to find the correct path the time taken will be considerable, plus how do you know you are on the right path unless you have proof whether each jump point is correct? Do you wait for a ship to go through or is there something that will tell you that this is the right path? – However, the real problem is the HPG ships placed along the exodus road – if just one of them gets a message off you will be facing a Clan Warship fleet sooner or later.
Realism in the Game – with regards to the Clan’s Invasion
Go back and start re-reading everything – the Cannon story has more plot holes in it that can be considered to be realistic – it is more like a series of ideas where and when you try to merge them together have no realistic way to meshing them – but they are used anyway because someone thinks there great and yet if you look even 1mm beneath the surface you will find nothing that makes any sense.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/14/20 12:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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The alt might have had black boxes under every pillow, but even then, that information takes time. Now with 5 planets it is far easier to determine when supplies come in. 100 worlds? Randomly using different ones would make that difficult, and waste a lot of your resources as well. And the fact the writers didn't have the clans be smart and start hitting the IS lines is a logic flaw in their superior tactics. It is a primary goal of any war. But they chose to focus on mech combat.
The exodus road is a bunch of BS. The clans did NOT take it all back to the IS, as they did not come in from the OA area. So a few hundred to thousands of light years were not in that trip. The term Exodus Road is useless. Invasion route is more like it.
The right path? 4 clans had supplies coming in, and each one had dropships as well as bases along them. Your simple capturing dropships and jumpships will give you the road back, even though it would be segmented. It is very likely you might start out following the Falcons route, only to jump and find a Bears depot. Then a Jaguar.
With this, another point comes up. Since they all didn't take the same route, did all the maps for the jumps get purged at the same place?
The HPG example is one for the 'Wolf pack' scenario. One message and the warships jump to where your jumpships are sitting at, while you are off raiding the worlds/stations. So that leads to the group being stranded on a world that only has limited supplies, and sooner or later, the massed aerospace fleet runs out of fuel. Or risks having a dump located and destroyed along with those guarding it.
The entire canon storyline has a lot of issues with it. Never said it didn't. I have said that the 'only viable solution' was a problem. It keeps a lot of those issues, and compounds it with more issues. Also, saying the developers don't know how to run their game is a problem, as you do not have their figures on what is available. I do think they just thru in a bunch of garbage and said it was it. To actually fill out every city and such in the game is not possible in a year with even a dozen people. And the novel writers coming up with a more interesting story doesn't help, as they add in things that complicate this even more.
if you look even 1mm beneath the surface you will find nothing that makes any sense.
I like this one. I tell you to get away from canon and you balk.
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Requiem
02/14/20 04:13 PM
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The alt might have had black boxes under every pillow, but even then, that information takes time. Now with 5 planets it is far easier to determine when supplies come in.100 worlds?
What if the information is not coming from the black box network.
What if the information is coming from rogue ComStar HPG adepts who are not happy with the Hilton Head orders to become quislings? What if they set up a means of dead letter drops – encoded messages to IS house intelligence agencies?
It is not unreasonable to believe many adepts would consider The First Circuits orders Treasonous, and wish to become a part of the resistance.
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And the fact the writers didn't have the clans be smart and start hitting the IS lines is a logic flaw in their superior tactics.
The real problem is that the Clans have been treating war like it is a quantifiable game where they can limit the damage since their earliest days.
They have lost the ability to understand how complicated and damaging war can really be …
Just look at their garrison forces …… too small and inept to do anything;
Just look at how they believed IS Worker Caste should just roll over once conquered by their warrior betters – the idea of fighting partisans never occurred to them – the idea came as a complete shock to them;
Their garrisons are also wide open for commando insertion tactics ….;
They have no idea as to artillery, vehicle, conventional fighter / bomber, the use of commando / spy assassinations etc;
They didn’t understand the use of spys (as per the IS uses them);
IEDs – poison food / water;
Psy-Ops against their workers; and many more …..
The clans are way too blinkered as to their way of combat and their way of sociopolitical governance ….
Unfortunately the canon story was also way too blinkered in its writing to produce anything acceptable.
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The exodus road is a bunch of BS. The clans did NOT take it all back to the IS
Agree … there must have been a Deep Periphery worksite where any IS weapon was repurposed for Garrison / Solhama unit and then sent back into the IS as required.
As for the name …the Clans are too hidebound when it comes to their history, they would never change the name from exodus road to invasion route, even if it is a more accurate description – it would dishonor their past and that of their “great” Kerensky.
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The right path? 4 clans had supplies coming in, and each one had dropships as well as bases along them. Your simple capturing dropships and jumpships will give you the road back, even though it would be segmented. It is very likely you might start out following the Falcons route, only to jump and find a Bears depot. Then a Jaguar.
You are quite correct – so do we just stop because it is getting a little difficult or do we press on …..
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With this, another point comes up. Since they all didn't take the same route, did all the maps for the jumps get purged at the same place?
The exodus road is just that, one road from Clan Space to a final space station located within the Deep Periphery – that is used to bulk break Inventory down into each individual clans ordered amounts.
As the Convoy reaches each new HPG ship their Navi. computer is wiped and new coordinates are entered into them to get them to the next HPG Ship ….
As for back in the Deep Periphery – with the arrival of new Inventory shipments from Clan Space each Clan will have a fleet of Merchantmen ready to transport everything to either their front lines or to a supply depo(s). / advance sibko training facilities etc. located within the Deep Periphery – which are used as their vast storehouse of goods etc. as required for day-to-day operations.
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The HPG example is one for the 'Wolf pack' scenario. One message and the warships jump to where your jumpships are sitting at,
Really? Do you believe the IS forces are that stupid? Precautions would be put in place as well as security measures – wouldn’t the transmission site be a site that can be used as a trap (one vengeance class, 40 fighters, and anywhere between 40 to 80 nukes) and in all probability be a minimum of one Jump away from the true base of operations
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It keeps a lot of those issues, and compounds it with more issues. Also, saying the developers don't know how to run their game is a problem, as you do not have their figures on what is available
And what happens when you realize the developers didn’t know the figures at the same time? An RCT is more than just the Mechs contained therein …. And what about conventional fighters / bombers ….. sorry but many of the cannon story battles are a little unrealistic, they just use the Mechs – leave out he vehicles, Infantry aerospace, and conventional fighters - to which when added in would have decimated the canon forces used.
Plus what happens when you realize that the size of your Houses forces have been reduced from the 20 year book down to the House books from (3062) just because they had a page limit per book – in 3050 the F-C had nearly 270 Regiments – by 3062 they only had about 110. Whereas the DC went from 99 down to about 80ish when you look at the page count per book.
Then there is the idea that after the Falcon Vs, Wolf fracas they could just reap additional forces off the other Clans (inc. the IS Jaguars), whilst not forced to fight a trial absorption / not forced to fight a war against the IS ARDC / DC, so that they could return to their original size prior to the conflict is a complete load of BS.
Then there are the issues of Turtle Bay and Huntress …… really?
These are more than just small teething issues … these are huge problems that cannot just be swept under the rug ….
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To actually fill out every city and such in the game is not possible
I agree – all you need is a rough description and you leave the rest up to the imagination of the players.
And over time you slowly build up a massive repository of information regarding every planet that could then be released on one disk for easy downloading - the game is only 35 years old!
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And the novel writers coming up with a more interesting story doesn't help, as they add in things that complicate this even more.
Editors?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/14/20 05:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not likely that even a full HPG of sympathizers would send information for long. Comstar ROHM would see to that. They can move without the HPG crew even knowing they are there. So that issue dies quickly.
Well there you go. Alls you need to do to stop the supplies it take a few jump stations and then the clans have no way to advance in either direction as they wipe out the jump code. You effectively cut them in half. Holding the stations so they can get new codes in may be the issue, but that is far easier then most other things. It would force the clans to secure these facilities.
No such thing as editors from the looks of it.
There was nothing done like Kathil for taking out dropships on their way in, which also asks why Mazers are not ground based anti ship weapons. The geothermal power plants sending energy to orbital stations was used as a mazer type set up. But no. Not in the game.
Holding onto an enemy mech and blowing your fusion core isn't in the game, but is in the novels.
Then the rpg. Guns are not auto kills when fired, yet somehow in the books, you can use a small hand gun and shoot someone in the leg and kill them outright.
There are so many more that the writers 'bent' the rules of the game.
By 3025, any base with a sewer system would have massive security watching the pipes for intruders. Yet every single story of infiltration seems to use that very route.
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Requiem
02/15/20 12:36 AM
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Not likely that even a full HPG of sympathizers would send information for long. Comstar ROHM would see to that.
As stated above - encoded messages – they can be very innocuous in nature as well as as they are sending messages you can in-bed information into the message itself where you will need a specific program and key to unlock the message that is hidden within (even within pictures themselves).
Plus – how can ROHM scrutinize every transmission? The only logical way is if every HPG station has a ROHM agent (team) assigned to scrutinize every transmission – and over time adepts will learn how to get around their “auditors”, there is always a way if you know how the policies, procedures and computer programs work.
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It would force the clans to secure these facilities.
Correct …. This is where being incredibly sneaky comes in handy when setting the stage for what is to come ….
Editors ….. This is where 40K etc has the edge … they have such a position …. And with regards to novels Vs. game rules – if a novel does something “interesting” the editor should send an e-mail to the game developer who would then establishing a rule through beta testing – it would then be included with the next version of rules and in the interim it could also be included on a forum for player comment.
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By 3025, any base with a sewer system would have massive security watching the pipes for intruders. Yet every single story of infiltration seems to use that very route.
Only in ancient cities do you see these types of sewer system – in reality they are way, way, smaller. Where the last time I had to know about it is when they used a small robot to coat the inside of the pipe with plastic, if the break is not that severe that is – though that was a few years back.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/15/20 12:38 AM)
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ghostrider
02/15/20 01:11 AM
66.74.60.165
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Not sure how many ROHM agents are stationed where, but you do have more issues then just the sending station.
Comstar techs do not know what the ROHM agents can do or where they are at. And to do anything with this, you need someone at the other end to know what to look for, and it is very probable that any suspicious activity will get crews separated and moved to other facilities and watched. That is if they don't just have an accident.
After one a couple of shipments being hit, they would find out who is reporting it. So no. It would not last long. Now as I said. This might work with 5 worlds, but 100? That is 100 stations that would have to have such sympathizers in it, as well as the stations that receive the information as well. Just one person passing it on to the higher ups would remove them all.
Then it would be a stupid supply commander to continue to send supplies in the same way when you have someone stalking your lines. But then the clans were not worried about that so much since their trials didn't focus on that. But they would learn quickly, or just call in more PGCs and such to guard the lines better.
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Requiem
02/15/20 06:14 AM
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ROHM Agents
Unfortunately there is a lack of knowledge in regard to ROHM Agents, the policies and procedures – duties – how they collect/ utilize / identify any irregularities within transmissions - information from the HPG.
So we are back to guessing ….
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After one a couple of shipments being hit, they would find out who is reporting it.
Er, no …. How good is the Clan’s intelligence agency within the IS? From what I have read they couldn’t find their way out of a wet paper bag – they have no real idea as to what it takes to be a good detective as they haven’t used this within the Clan Space in past couple of centuries.
Sympathizers numbers … again semantics – there is no way of knowing the numbers, it is all a guess – so if you have one hundred worlds roll a 1D100?
Logistics routes – yes you would change the routes, but this is why you attempt to identify these routes and why you have multiple Fenris forces in attempt to stop as much as they can given the information they have on hand.
This may work or it may not – all you can do is your best.
As for PGCs – remember they take 7 months plus to arrive from Clan space – I would also like to ask how may PGCs are within each Clans Touman? Or are you just changing a front lines nime to PGC so that you can get them into the IS? As they are supposed to be the old, the Freebirth and the Solhama.
How many clans would tolerate a large number of PGCs / Solhama units leeching off the True Warriors of their Clans? (Resources allocated to these units would be better off with the TrueBorn Front Line Forces and not the Freeborn!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/15/20 01:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not clan finding out, Comstar finding out. It would be their coms being used to transmit it.
For someone that loves to run the numbers, you have a 20% chance to find the route with 5 worlds. You have a 1% chance with 100 worlds. What is more likely to be guess correctly?
Also, if you only have sympathizers in your station, who will be receiving the reports and passing them on?
Comstar did fix some of the ways that were used by IS agencies sending information like this after the 4th war. So they did have it looking for such issues in transmissions.
As said before, you can set up the raiders, but you run into the same issues. 50% chance of being in the wrong jump point for a normal jump, though you could set it up by having all supply runs come in at the same point of all systems.
Pirate points might be useable, but flight times is the issue. If you are over a week out, then it is likely the supplies will jump back out before you get there, unless the supplies are being grounded.
Depending on the agreement for the invading clans, most of the home clans would love for them to take the PGCs with them. Less forces to defend their lands. A few of the lesser clans would start trials to gain on the greater ones.
But more likely would be the call for additional clans to invade the IS, as the original ones weren't up to the job. Recalling them is possible, but not as likely as having more added.
Also, you seem to forget that the old, freeborn and solemha warriors were there to guard things. The front line takes a dim look at having to do such things as themselves. If nothing, the front line warriors would really give garbage to the PGCs suggesting they couldn't do the job like a warrior, which is why they aren't in the front lines.
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Requiem
02/15/20 04:20 PM
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Not clan finding out, Comstar finding out. It would be their coms being used to transmit it.
So? Unless you can find the embedded message this point is not relevant.
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For someone that loves to run the numbers, you have a 20% chance to find the route with 5 worlds. You have a 1% chance with 100 worlds. What is more likely to be guess correctly?
Please refer to the above different sources of information (02/14/20 at 02:41 AM)
When you factor in these additional sources of information you could increase the 1% chance to an unknown number that is greater than the original 1%. Even to 100% if you get a map and timetable from a Clan Server and they do not realize it!
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So they did have it looking for such issues in transmissions.
Looking for them and finding them are two completely different challenges.
Intelligence gathering / Counter Intelligence -
How much of an expert are the Clans with regards to these two military fields when they have not utilized them to the extent the IS forces have over the past centuries?
The IS have become experts in these two fields during the Succession Wars, can the same be said of the Clans when they have such limited number of worlds as well as their practice of declaring Trials before combat commences …..
So yes I do believe I can say there will be instances where the IS forces will have a very good chance of being at the right spot at the right time.
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Depending on the agreement for the invading clans, most of the home clans would love for them to take the PGCs with them.
Yes I agree, however given some Clans hatred of the aged and their hatred of the free-born how many PGC / Solhama could they actually have? – the Jaguars for example, their martial code would abhor the weak and the free-born – thus their Touman would not include many of these units as they would have gotten rid of them as quickly as possible – it would be seen as a disgrace to have too many of these units within the Clan’s Touman.
That said, when they need them within the IS, there mustn’t have been that many to call upon in the first place!
So where did all of these units magically spring from in the first place when you consider each Clans martial philosophy when it comes to the free-born and the solhama?
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Also, you seem to forget that the old, freeborn and solemha warriors were there to guard things.
Against whom? Non Warrior Castes or how about the Dark Caste? Or how about their own Merchants looking for something big?
Other Clans just declare a Trial to obtain military hardware. So what is the point of having a large standing PGC force on the Clan Home Worlds?
So how did large PGC forces just magically appear for the many IS worlds?
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The front line takes a dim look at having to do such things as themselves. If nothing, the front line warriors would really give garbage to the PGCs suggesting they couldn't do the job like a warrior, which is why they aren't in the front lines.
In which adds credence to my belief there mustn’t have been many of these units on the Clan Home Worlds to start with?
So how did large PGC forces just magically appear for the many IS worlds?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/15/20 08:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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They will find the embedded coding. It may not be for months, but they would. Once they find out there is a leak, it will be found. Only so many people can report that jumpships come in at such and such that are clan ships. Not hard to figure out where to start looking at.
So you would have a map for supplies on the first guess of where supplies are shipping thru? No way. After you get ahold of ships or where supplies are stored, you might, but it wouldn't be that hard to shift where they are sent to after a few repeated raids on the same base.
The instances is the first statement that has some bite. There will be times they get lucky. But it is not something you can rely on, unless you get into the real main stream of supplies and you have to have the resources to do something with. The alt might have them, but not likely anything else.
And this may open up a logic hole as well. Time to build ships verses how many are destroyed each year. They don't pop them out 3 a month for jumpships in one building bay.
Hating the failed warriors is one thing, but having them being required over rides that hatred. The Freeborns being banned is stated as such. But they had to have more then a few of them, as they were the ones to garrison the Jaguars properties. Not sure how much of each PGC was used at each one, so that leaves some breathing room. But given the fact any clan can challenge for almost any thing at any time, you have to have units to defend with, and that isn't saying you are going out to challenge for things yourself.
Without the numbers, it could very well be that each facility each clan owned, might have had a PGC guarding them. Then again, it might have been just the world. And they were necessary, as the front line units were not going to get involved in things unless it was very important. A clan can take something from you, so you challenge to take it back. It is the way of the trials.
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Requiem
02/15/20 11:23 PM
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They will find the embedded coding. It may not be for months, but they would. Once they find out there is a leak, it will be found.
Sorry but this cannot be verified as correct. They may or they may not.
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So you would have a map for supplies on the first guess of where supplies are shipping thru? No way.
What would happen if they look a clan base of jump-ship and they found the map list of Logistics dates on the computer then what?
What if you find the location of one of the Clan’s major supply bases?
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Time to build ships verses how many are destroyed each year. They don't pop them out 3 a month for jumpships in one building bay.
Again another fact that cannot be verified, and may change if you adopt the alt. total war production changes to your game.
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Hating the failed warriors is one thing, but having them being required over rides that hatred.
What if you have one superior officer who decides to sends you out, knowing you are not coming back – a Jag. Trueborn could do this very easily …..
This is the point how many PGCs and Solhama units will a Clan tolerate – as they are just a minor step up from a surat ….
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Without the numbers, it could very well be that each facility each clan owned, might have had a PGC guarding them.
Why? What’s the point? What are they defending against on the Clan Home worlds – it is not as if the Worker Caste will sabotage the place – or do they expect the Dark Caste to attack?
As for any real attack – it will be conducted via a Trial of Possession and that will require a front line unit and not a PGC.
So what is the point of having a large PGC / Solhama complement if the only reason you have them is to do the dirty work no one else wants to do – fight the dark caste.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/16/20 01:55 AM
66.74.60.165
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The clans do not wait for units to arrive for a challenge. They fight the unit that is currently there.
Still showing a lack of understanding of clan ways and culture.
And for some warriors, being sent on a one way mission is preferred over a long slide into obscurity.
Why have them when the only reason is to fight the dark caste? They don't fight the dark caste until attacked or ordered to. But then garrisons are not in your game plans. It is all attack or full units in one location. The idea that not every mine is within a city limit, or the factory was forced to be 20 miles from it, as the pollution was that bad. A dropship manufacturer was on the plains in the middle of no where as that was the best place to build them. Military bases are scattered across worlds, systems, even different systems.
Techs are one step below solemha units, but they are necessary. Workers are even lower, but if you want to eat, you have to have them. So unless the high and mighty warriors want to do the dirty work of garrison duty, they have to have the PGCs. And that is also where you get the quick reinforcements from when you lose a chunk in a unit. So having them skilled is necessary as well.
A mech is easier to build then a jumpship, and they can't be built that quickly. That is from start to finish, not the assembly line count. Massive number of lines won't change how long it takes to build that one mech.
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Requiem
02/16/20 02:11 AM
1.158.235.15
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The clans do not wait for units to arrive for a challenge. They fight the unit that is currently there.
Then why have PGCs and Solhama units at all? Clans could target their rivals second rate units to get what they want through multiple Trials of Possession?
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Techs are one step below solemha units, but they are necessary. Workers are even lower, but if you want to eat, you have to have them.
Tell that to a Jaguar.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/16/20 02:32 AM
66.74.60.165
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Wow. Now you figured out why they have PGCs. The clans can target what they want, when they want. As you don't have enough forces to cover everything with front line troops, you have to do something.
And the Jaguars know the order of things. Doesn't mean they are going to be nice to anyone that isn't capable of shoving a fist down their throats.
The clans are much like the IS. You have so many things you have to guard, that it is best to keep your best troops out of normal fights so you can use them to hit anyone that opens up.
I believe there is something in the trials that prevents you from attacking, losing, then sending in another unit right away. Might be the loss of honor that prevents this.
But that does not stop them from taking a few days before doing it again. Though they would probably have to deal with a front line unit soon afterwards.
Without PGCs, you would lose your front line units, as multiple clans would be biting at your constantly. After a while, you don't have any front line troops in a condition to fight.
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Requiem
02/16/20 05:55 PM
1.158.235.15
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Wow. Now you figured out why they have PGCs. The clans can target what they want, when they want. As you don't have enough forces to cover everything with front line troops, you have to do something.
From the Clan’s point of view, this doesn’t make sense!
If you need a unit to “protect” a certain area do you really need to go to the extent of having forces “guard” everything – or can you just have forces guard everything within a certain geographical area? So when a Trial of Possession is Called for it goes straight to the front line True-born Military Unit that Governs and Protects that entire area.
Also over time can’t you phase out all free-born units so that all you have remaining is True-born / Solhama?
The only reason I can see why you need free-born warriors is to do the jobs the True-born would never do – and the only jobs that fit that bill is killing off other Free-born Caste Members of your own Clan that have gone rogue or fighting the Bandit Caste.
Thus given the lack of any need for them there really should not be that many PGCs as stated the need for them on the Clan’s Home world is not there to begin with so the resources allocated to them should be minimized …. From a Clan’s point of view there is no real need for them so why have them – it is not as if the Clan’s need a filler group of second rate Free-born units as they really do not need them in great numbers on the Clan Home Worlds.
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The clans are much like the IS. You have so many things you have to guard, that it is best to keep your best troops out of normal fights so you can use them to hit anyone that opens up.
When you consider wars are conducted in Clan space through a neat and orderly system of Trial’s of possession etc the idea you need to guard everything (as they do in the IS) is no longer a plausible requirement.
In the IS a guarding force is required everywhere as your attacking force will attack everything and at any time. They will attack and destroy whatever they want to get to their prize – fighting in the inner sphere is very messy involving vast armies.
However, in Clan Space all you need is a regional Garrison Force who will accept the challenge of any other Clan for whatever the challenge is concerning – they then determine the number each force will use and then move off to a pre-determined battlefield, fight, and determine the winner in a nice clean sanitized and orderly manner of war and in so doing there is no damage to their people or facilities.
There is a vast difference in how the two fight – one is incredibly sanitized the other is conducted in all its horror and on a size and scope the clan have never really seen since the days Nicholas formed the Clans.
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Without PGCs, you would lose your front line units, as multiple clans would be biting at your constantly. After a while, you don't have any front line troops in a condition to fight.
Doesn’t this statement go against everything the Clan Warriors believes in?
Do they really need a group of Free-born surats to act as their shields when they are the greatest gene-created warrior ever to have been forged! Don’t they need to constantly prove they are the best – and this can only be done in constant combat so that in the fullness of time their genes will produce the next generation of great warriors.
To a Clan Warrior (and their sanitized version of war) is it not the air they breath … is it not the reason they were created! So why allow a freeborn to fight first or even at all?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/16/20 09:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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You have troops stationed in Europe. They are in Belgium. The enemy bids to take Spain from you. Not the entire continent, just Spain. How do you guard against that with all forces in one location (Blegium)?
Concentration of forces can't be done in every occasion, especially when the enemy has the ability to wipe them all out with one strike.
It doesn't seem like understanding WHY you can't have your entire force in one location is getting thru. And with this, you have to defend with what is there, not just instantly say you have units on the Eastern front there in the time it takes to say such a thing.
You can eliminate all Freeborn units. But then you are down so many garrison units it isn't even funny. Why do you think the Jaguars and Falcons were having so many issues with population control? They didn't have the forces to do much. They had to reduce the amount of worlds they would attack to deal with such things in the invasion. Wow. They did figure this out in the writing.
Maybe this might get you to understand you can not sit in one location and guard a world.
You have 25 factories spread around the world. How do you stop 10 different strikes against them? What? You send them out from the one point to deal with them, but by the time they get there the factories are sacked/raided or in trials, property of another clan. Now you just lost 10 of the factories you need to continue to survive. And I would bet you would move the entire force from their bunker unit in order to get them back, leaving 15 more open to being hit, as well as your main place where they were sitting. There is no 'hold on. I need to get my forces here.' in this. They are there now and will do the fighting now. 2 hours is far too late with no one there to even attempt to guard them.
Also read the rules of trials. They can be declared at any time, in any place. They can be set to a specific place, or here and now. If you don't have anything to defend with, then it is your faulty genes that cause a stupid mistake of not having forces there to stop them. Sound about right?
To the clan warrior victory is the most wanted thing. Those in the front lines don't think they should be guarding things, and even with that, there would not be enough to last very long if you used just blood named and warriors that tested out. Did more then a single clan attack the Wolverines at once? How about 3 or more? You are weak, if you only have your front line as defense and attack. A single bad battle will have you losing more troops and 'honor'. Nothing will stop your decline. You don't have reserves to draw on, and as you pointed out, your sibkos will not replace the losses fast enough. Even with a yearly graduation, the enemy will have that many more units then you do.
And if they really wanted to make you look bad, sending in a freeborn unit to take an objective would make you the laughing stock of the clan society. Only one this would be worse. Losing to the Dark Caste.
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Requiem
02/17/20 12:01 AM
1.158.235.15
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You have troops stationed in Europe. They are in Belgium. The enemy bids to take Spain from you. Not the entire continent, just Spain. How do you guard against that with all forces in one location (Blegium)?
Yes this is a valid argument if you are fighting a conventional army during a conventional war.
However, in Clan space where sanitized bidding, as well as prearranged battlefields are determined in an effort to restrict the overall damage done this idea can no longer be considered valid!
Especially if each area of your Clan’s enclave is given to a specific Galaxy and when you initiate a Trial Possession that Galaxy Commander determines an appropriate response this idea of having specific garrisons to guard specific assets can no longer be considered valid!
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It doesn't seem like understanding WHY you can't have your entire force in one location is getting thru.
This is not the IS with house units and mercenaries attacking and defending vast swathes of land.
This is the Clan Home Worlds – where announced Trial initiate wars (rather than the sneak attacks of the IS) where sensitized warfare determine their battles (rather than the all out warfare of the IS).
They are two completely different philosophies and systems of warfare.
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You can eliminate all Freeborn units. But then you are down so many garrison units it isn't even funny.
Again why?, when your battles are all predetermined and sanitized.
In a clan Trial – they arrive and declare with what forces you defend this or that …. The defenders then say a trinary from a Freeborn unit … the attackers then match their forces or reduce their forces as per the bidding process ..
So, it really doesn’t matter if you have a PGC unit of 15 Mechs or a Trinary of Trueborn …. The number is irrelevant, so you can remove all the Free-borns if necessary and just replace them with a smaller number of Trueborn … the attacking force will always match their forces to that of the defending units … thus numbers become irrelevant if you use this sanitized version of War ….
You could place one assault mech at each place and it still will not matter the attacking force has to still bid an appropriate amount …. another assault, one heavy , two medium, three to four light
Numbers within Clan space as to the PGCs are quire ridiculous – you do not need them they are for the most part an irrelevant concept within Clan Warrior Traditions. The only reason you would have them in large numbers is to protect your borders against another Freeborn society (The Dark Caste?) that has their own military force in large numbers – and as such the True born do not concern themselves with regards to this never ending war with this close by society as they are Freeborn and as such beneath their contempt – if Trueborns do fight them it is only as a training exercise.
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Wolverines
How can you compare an extermination order of an entire Clan, where the rules no longer apply, to the day-to-day battles of Trials of possession ….
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A single bad battle will have you losing more troops and 'honor'. Nothing will stop your decline.
Question: When building your military via a Sibko system as well as getting rid of the majority of your Free-born from the military wouldn’t you take this into account when assigning numbers to undergo their trial of position?
I would also like to point out that if the majority of all clans adopt this system the point becomes mute – if everyone has almost equal numbers the point as to numbers becomes irrelevant once more.
Question - considering the clan’s phobia with regards to Free-born if they could get rid of them from the military don’t you think they would?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/17/20 01:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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Where does it say that there are prearranged battlefields for trials of possession?
Trials of position, yes. But battlefields for possession is much like Grievance. It is decided at the time of the challenge, and near the thing being challenged for. There isn't much of the idea of moving the fight to a different political area to do the fight. You defend with onsite forces, or you lose it immediately. The clans are as much about embarrassment of the enemy as it is about showing your that much better. They don't do to the lengths of some IS fights, but it is still there. And this also happens within a clan as well.
The clans have their trials, which limits damage to things like buildings being fought over, it does not let you hold off a challenge while you send forces to the location from any real distance. It is possible for one clan to challenge for the only bridge across a river just to annoy the hell out of the other clan. It could well be to set up further conquests as well. Can't use the bridge until you defeat the forces there. That means you can't send your forces across the ground in order to meet other challenges.
You don't care if the enemy kills your front line troops from basically a sneak attack that asks right before the attack on what you defend with? You leave your best units open to a massive size difference in numbers. The internal bidding for attacking does not have to be reduced to the point that you can win on defense. Your trinary could very well face a full cluster. Complain all you want, your force is dead. Replace them now. What's that? You don't have reserves as you don't have anything to draw them from. What a shame. He comes the next challenge. The challenging clan bids to reduce the number, but it does not have to be close to what you defend with. What was that about 3 to 1?
Also there is the humility factor to consider. A unit of freeborns in old garbage mechs, may actually defeat your unit of omni driving 'elite' warriors. But you would prefer to rely on the omnis for everything, and therefor start losing more and more battles as the omnis are down as well as pilots. The only excuse that could be made is not knowing the frequency of trials.
Using the Wolverines to show that even up forces aren't likely going to be happening. You could win against one challenge then have a second one come before you get your forces back up to full. Then another. This is the very fear the Falcons and Wolves had after the refusal war.
Do you understand the sibko graduation trials? You start off with 100 children in a sibko. They grow up together and the weak are removed as they do so. How are you going to assign the numbers that undergo the trial of position? The ones that don't fail before the last test are the ones that undergo the trial. So unless you change the parameters of what causes to fail their test, how do you increase this number that does make it? The best of the best. Now you want the more to survive, not the best of the best. Increasing the number of sibkos is one way, but I do believe there is a limit on this for all clans. To have excess is a waste.
How is the point moot when it is smart tactics that allows you to bring in forces needed to take an objective without losing more forces then necessary? And think of this as well. When fighting freeborns, will come of the clans bother with bondsmen?
And with this, saying all the clans are one way is making a very large mistake. I won't say any of them love the freeborns, but some do like having them fill in spots beneath the omni and blood named pilots.
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Requiem
02/17/20 05:22 PM
1.158.235.15
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Where does it say that there are prearranged battlefields for trials of possession?
Read between the lines!
Clans hate waste – they also ensured this whole system of Trials to ensure there was no damage to the overall infrastructure and the people of Clan space due to War.
What happens if everything near their objective has been used for another civilian purpose – what are you going to do next?
So where else are they going to fight? The middle of a city, the local agricultural fields, or how about the local Park – the children’s swing looks like a good defensible spot, or how about the sandpit – entrench an elemental and he will be hard to dislodge?
So where else? There must be dedicated fields – Salisbury Plains in England used exclusively by their Military so that they do not damage what they are after.
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You defend with onsite forces, or you lose it immediately.
Where is this written?
When considering how small Clan Space really is how can you not have dedicated areas in which to fight. As the rest of all of the planets must be used for agriculture and civilian settlements (have a look at each world’s populations – these are not small numbers). Thus if local forces only – then they must move to a dedicated battlefield or risk damaging civilian areas.
So again the idea of PGCs is once again a mute point – they do not need them in any great numbers!
As for the bridge – you loose the bridge, big deal, just build a new one next to it and keep moving on – who feels sheepish now?
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You don't care if the enemy kills your front line troops from basically a sneak attack that asks right before the attack on what you defend with?
Where is this written?
If you attack a trinary with a cluster – what does this say to the Honor of the unit that bid a cluster?
TRO 3050 – Page 7 – Bidding – “Whoever promises to take the “planet” with the fewest forces gets the task. That commander can still call on the full number of troops of his first bid, but to do so would be a great loss of face. The Clans usually commit about half the number of ‘Mechs as the defending force.”
So yes you can attack with a Cluster all you want but to do so you will be ridiculed by every other Clan – extreme loss of face for yourself and for your entire Clan.
So again numbers are an irrelevant concept within the Clan Home Worlds – the only thing that matters is winning with the smallest force you can – this shows you are a ristar – and gets you the chance of competing for your bloodname – and your genes to be used for the next generation.
So again the premise you need Freeborn PGCs in numbers is a completely irrelevant concept to the Clans.
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What was that about 3 to 1?
Apples and Oranges again
Clan Space is one thing but when you transport your forces to the IS you should expect the IS to change the rules and they will attack with 3:1 or even higher.
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knowing the frequency of trials.
Within Clan Space over the years the number and frequency of trials would become an expected and quantifiable value – except when a Clan gets a new Khan – at this point he would want to cement his reputation and the number of trials would increase for a time.
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You could win against one challenge then have a second one come before you get your forces back up to full. Then another.
All this shows is that your Clan is weak and the weak should be killed off! … I call for a Trial of Absorption!
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…. sibko graduation trials …. The best of the best …..
This has always been their achilles heel – you want more forces then increase the number of Sibkos or try to get more through, but relying on Freeborns to make up your numbers just shows how weak a Clan you are!
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How is the point moot when it is smart tactics that allows you to bring in forces needed to take an objective without losing more forces then necessary? And think of this as well. When fighting freeborns, will come of the clans bother with bondsmen?
As a True-born, where is the glory in fighting a Free-born for anything?
How am I going to recognized as a ristar if I am always assigned to attacking Free-born targets?
Again over time the concept of having Freeborn units within Clan Space should be discouraged as it goes against the entire Clan Martial philosophy.
Like the Idea of Wardens and Crusaders there should also be the pure True born Clan versus the mixed Free / True born Clan Warrior political parties at the same time.
Thus the Wardens would be Mixed; and
The Crusaders should be true.
This is only logical when you consider their underlying dogma when it comes to the idea of the purity of a warrior. Only Trueborns can obtain a Blood Name and obtain the higher ranks – including sa-khan and khan.
The Clans are into racial “Gene” supremacy! This is who they are ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/17/20 05:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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Could it be that all buildings must reside within a specific area, and the rest of the world is the fighting arena? It may well be that the civilian buildings are in the combat area so the true borns can remove some of them, especially if those buildings are deemed illegal? Fights can be done in cities as well. The dislike of such actions are there, but it won't stop them.
Really? Just build one next to it? Waste time and resources to do so, only to lose that one as well?
I supposed it would be better to just bombard the base all your forces are in and remove your clan from existance. The others might be upset a little, but now they don't have to deal with you anymore.
The Castle idea of war died when the cannon was created, and became a death trap when bombs and missiles came about.
The attack with a cluster was against another clan. Nothing in that statement said anything about hitting the IS. And even that was violated more then a few times. Nothing happened to those that did it. Well nothing that was written about.
And let's face it. The last battle with Ulric ended how? With a massed fire of guided missiles. Not one on one, or even three on one, but stars on one. And it isn't like the larger attacking force is something new to the clans.
Call for a trial of absorbtion. Nothing was said it was the same clan. And the clans have done this in the past as well. Even undeclared attacks. There was no trial to remove the Wolverines. There was no trail to remove Widowmaker. The entire Widowmaker clan died because one warrior shot and killed Nicholas. The general fighting for a position in the invasion force would have dealt with things like this. Each clan fighting to be the top, and it didn't take years to do. I want to say 6 months was the written number.
As you stated. Increase the sibkos. So 16 or so years later, you will have reinforcements.
Lessen the requirements to become a warrior. Weaken the clan as you have forsaken the clans sibko traditions. Marthe did it on Coventry, and nothing was said or done about it. You still have warriors from older graduations disgusted by this. Most clanners would rather die, then change customs.
OH, I love that one. A true born will not attack a freeborn unit as there is not glory in it?
This is a very good reason to have the PGCs. I don't have to do anything but put some ok warriors in a few old mechs, and you will never attack anything I own. While I can take your things, as you will not be able to hold out for long. And it wouldn't be just one clan to hit either. This isn't a one on one, where stand and deliver is the way.
There have been freeborn leaders in the clans. Not just Phelan, but Nicholas and others. And you still don't get it. You want all your forces in one big cluster. Fine. You will die as you have no rescources to even reload, much less build new units. No repairs will get done as you don't have the resources to make them, and declaring trials for them will only get more and more declaring trials against you.
There is nothing saying you can only be attacked by a single clan. Each hit a different location at the same time. Oooops. Only one location has units.
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Requiem
02/17/20 08:01 PM
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Fights can be done in cities as well.
Considering the Clan’s ideas concerning waste …. Prove it!
I have never read of a Trail (in Clan Space) being conducted within an occupied City. Book and Page No. please.
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Really? Just build one next to it?
Yes, they fought over the bridge – they won – they can have it! – in building a second bridge it makes the attackers look very foolish in the eyes of the other Clans as well as the Grand Council – what you have effectively done is turn their efforts into a joke!
Is this not the Clan way?
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I supposed it would be better to just bombard the base all your forces are in and remove your clan from existence.
First you need approval from the Grand Council – Trial of Extermination.
The rules of the game must be adhered to, that is unless you want your Clan to undergo a Trial of Extermination for the same charge as the Wolverines …. Their egregious disrespect of Clan Tradition.
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The Castle idea of war died when the cannon was created, and became a death trap when bombs and missiles came about.
Question: What is a Castle Brian? https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Castle_Brian
And on the bottom of the page ….
“Sadalbari Brian Castle, in Draconis Combine space: partially destroyed, however was used as a base during the battles of this planet in the War of 3039.”
And the Big MAC romp through FS space didn’t they end up attacking a fortress and breaching its walls?
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and became a death trap when bombs and missiles came about.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Graham_IV
“The two remaining Castles Brian were Fort Baldwin, located near the planetary capital, DeKirk City, and Fort Ball. Each would take the better part of eight weeks to subdue; the Republican forces attempted to crack each with repeated nuclear strikes ….”
How can they be considered death traps when they can survive “repeated nuclear strikes”?
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Nothing happened to those that did it. Well nothing that was written about.
Correct …. Nothing that was written about …but when you take into account Clan traditions loss of face would have been the minimum – loss of being considered a ristar – loss of being ablte to compete for a Blood name …. It all compounds one onto the next onto the next within Clan society ….
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The last battle with Ulric ended how?
Question what battle was being fought at the time? Could it have been the Refusal War ….in which the Falcons would later call a Trial of Absorption ….which was fought more like a Trial of Extermination.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ulric_Kerensky
“As they spoke, Chistu employed a small laser to spot for hidden elements of the Jade Falcon Keshik, who then launched their Long Range Missiles upon Ulric and his honor guard Star. Ulric's Gargoyle charged towards Chistu, but was incinerated by the mass fire. His death, though a complete violation of Clan laws, effectively brought the Trial of Refusal against the Grand Council vote to an end.”
A COMPLETE VIOLATION OF CLAN LAWS
So how will all the other Clans take this violation killing the ilKhan during an honorable battle by the Jade Falcons? Especially one so formidable as Ulric …. By this action the Jade Falcons have proven themselves once again to be cowardly and weak in the eyes of their fellow Clans, the shame of it all!
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Call for a trial of absorption.
If a Clan proves themselves to be weak they should be destroyed.
Wolverines …. Nicholas called for the Trial, read Betrayal of Ideals …. As well as,
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Wolverine
“The ilKhan commanded Clan Snow Raven to take the battle to the Wolverines on Circe as he planned the ultimate punishment: the Trial of Annihilation.“
Widowmaker ….
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Widowmaker
Started as a Trial of Absorption - “In the summer of 2834, the Widowmakers massacred their own merchants during a caste dispute. Though the Widowmakers blamed the Wolves for stirring up the merchants, the Grand Council agreed with Khan Jerome Winson of Clan Wolf to question their right to rule and gave the Wolves the right to absorb them.”
Ended as a Trial of Annihilation – “Whether by design or by accident, Khan Jorgensson killed ilKhan Kerensky, sending the Wolf Clan into a frenzy of vengeance.”
Thus there were Trials for both Wolverine and Widowmaker …..
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As you stated. Increase the sibkos. So 16 or so years later, you will have reinforcements. Lessen the requirements to become a warrior.
About 2870 the eugenics program to produce genetically superior warriors commenced;
The Clans invaded the IS in 3050;
So in 180years the Clans couldn’t wean themselves off of using Free-born and start using only True-born?
Sorry but this seems very strange when you live in a society where ones genes determine their position in a caste driven society …
So can you explain why after 180 years they still rely on any free-born individual to fill out their military when they are perceived to be so inferior?
The entire Clan society is based upon the premise of racial “gene” superiority – so why keep them? It is custom that we do so? Sorry but I cannot see this a good enough an excuse …
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OH, I love that one. A true born will not attack a freeborn unit as there is not glory in it?
This is a very good reason to have the PGCs. I don't have to do anything but put some ok warriors in a few old mechs, and you will never attack anything I own. While I can take your things, as you will not be able to hold out for long. And it wouldn't be just one clan to hit either. This isn't a one on one, where stand and deliver is the way.
The Clan warrior society is all about glory in combat – as well as the prowess of your Touman through vast campaigns to improve the standing of your Clan over that of your rivals.
Please explain how using Free-born surats as a shield does anything but produce scorn and derision in the hearts of your fellow Clans-men, to the point they will view your Clan and your Khan as weak and call for a Trial of Absorption?
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There have been freeborn leaders in the clans.
Can we remember that due to his mother’s lineage …. As well as a gene evaluation …Phelan was recognized a being both a Free-born and at the same time having the same genes as that of a True-born … otherwise he would not have been allowed to compete for a Bloodname and as a recipient of a Bloodname he was given the position of Khan of Clan Wolf (in Exile).
So again we have proof of the clans belief in racial “gene” supremacy.
As for Nicholas, did they have gene warriors back then, did they exist at all?
Since the introduction of large numbers of True-born warriors can you think of any leaders that have not been True-born?
The Clans are a proponent for Racial Superiority!
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Only one location has units.
Comprehension once again …. Please go back and re-read what was written …
What was stated that for an entire Clans holdings it be divided up into smaller holdings in which each of these smaller holdings is controlled by a galaxy of your Troops. In the event your area is called upon for a Trial of Possession – The Galaxy Commander will assign a unit (the size / importance of which will be appreciable to the importance of what the Trial is concerning) when asked “With what forces do you defend …..”. They then send that unit to the pre-designated battlefield in that area – they fight win / loose – territory kept / lost … all very neat and clean the way Clan Society has evolved the practices of war to that of an approximation of what true war is within the IS.
The philosophy / conduct of war within the Clan Space and that of the IS are two completely different procedures. Of which were completely overlooked – for the most part.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/17/20 08:02 PM)
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ghostrider
02/17/20 11:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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Where do you think the massacres of civilians happened during the Falcons and Jaguars purges? They just had them all walk out into a field to die? And chasing down the Wolverines as well as the Widowmakers? They had to have some fights in cities. Can't weed out the people if they stay in the cities, now can you?
You do not need the approval of the council for removing your massed forces. A simple challenge would allow me to strike you where you are at. It would not be my fault you put them all in one location, so they all died at the same time. And some would applaud that action.
The examples of castles being used did NOT have their entire force in them. They were staging bases, and with the MAC strikes they had forces in a lot of other places. Part of why they didn't have the full regiment able to attack the small forces guarding the location. Oh wait. They had forces all over the world, and the MAC attacked them all with smaller forces?
The example of the bridge really is funny. You would waste resources building another bridge, because your forces were not able to fight for the one they lost? I guess being the weakest clans would come from that one. Couldn't defend it, now can't even fight for it. Dezgra clan comes to mind.
Defending the underpowered nukes of the game? The writers wanted it to survive, so it did. Having repeated nukes dropped and still having anything above ground still existing just doesn't work.
Still not understanding the use of things to get ahead? The clans still use normal weapons, yet they have the advanced versions of them. Why continue to build and use them? Because they don't want the advanced stuff on garrison units. Does this sound smart? No. It sounds like cutting your nose of to spite your face. But until you understand you have to guard your facilities, you will never understand the use of the PGCs.
Saying the clan is weak if they use PGCs, yet I can guarantee you will not run your clan long when you forces your warriors to sit around in garrison duties, or worse, lose all your resources as you feel they aren't necessary to continue to even repair them. Trials of Grievance, Refusal, Positions and others would continue against you until you are removed. Those things you lose may well be their genetic material or mechs. But your death match concepts of war will never let you see the real side of war.
Through out the history of the clans, someone born of two trueborns outside of the Iron Wombs was not allowed to fight for a blood name. And it wouldn't be allowed to contribute to the gene pool. No matter the parents standing, they are a freeborn. You want tradition bound things, there is a very strong one.
And using troops that you refuse to attack, makes you look weak, as you won't even try to take out freeborns. So I can hit your resources with no fear of retaliation, as you won't even look at the freebirths. So I could even use them on the attack, so you slink away from defending. Cowardice in the extreme. Afraid of the big bad freeborns.
How many galaxies does a single clan have? How many areas do they have to guard as well as being used to take from others? Now how many times are you going to lose warriors in any fight? Attrition isn't the nasty word for only the IS. It is done in the clans as well. You are weak if you can't replace your loses.
The idea that you can dispatch forces to cover a trial held a distance away doesn't work. Get that straight now. You fight with the units on location at that moment. I call to ask what forces defend the water hole. If you do not have anything there, then I win by default. Suggesting that you can send units there after the challenge is sent, will make your weak clan the laughing stock of the clans. It will also lead to your eventual downfall, as any sort of resources would not be there.
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Requiem
02/18/20 01:44 AM
1.158.235.15
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Massacres –
How can these be the same as Trial of Possession?
Trial of Absorption –
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rite_of_Absorption
“The Grand Council can vote to allow one Clan to absorb another, but only by a unanimous vote.”
Trial of Annihilation
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Annihilation
“This trial can only be invoked by a unanimous vote of the appropriate council, and only for the most heinous crimes against Clan society.”
Trials of Possession
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Possession
“It allows the performance of regulated raids for specific critical assets while minimizing losses due to unplanned and unannounced raiding. It also eliminates collateral damage and danger to non-combatants.”
“… begin with a ritual challenge called a Batchall, where the challenger declares his/her name, the type of trial and other parameters. These parameters are dictated by the type of trial that the attacker proposes. In a Trial of Possession the declared parameters are the prize to be won.”
“….In situations where the prize is an installation or other location the Circle is created in a proxy location to prevent collateral damage to the prize itself.”
“…..a circle or sphere that has a radius of about .... two to five kilometers for 'Mech combat …. The circle of equals ensures no non-combatants are caught in the conflict, and in larger battles, there is no collateral damage to surrounding building and equipment.”
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The examples of castles being used did NOT have their entire force in them.
So? ….. consider the size of an original Castle Brian, how many can be placed in the larger ones …
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You would waste resources building another bridge, because your forces were not able to fight for the one they lost?
No, I would waste recourses to make sport of another clans foolishness and pride ..
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Defending the underpowered nukes of the game?
What happens if these fortresses are so deep that multiple strikes do not work …? What happens if the doors are protected by unknown meters of solid rock or metal …. ?
NORAD?
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The clans still use normal weapons, yet they have the advanced versions of them. Why continue to build and use them? Because they don't want the advanced stuff on garrison units.
And here I though they wanted more advanced weapons to defeat their rival Clans.
I really don’t think they care about their Free-born and what they have …. they even give them vehicles ….
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Saying the clan is weak if they use PGCs, yet I can guarantee you will not run your clan long when you forces your warriors to sit around in garrison duties
In comparison to a Clan with all True-born warriors – you are weak! (Demonstration of what Clansman who believes in Racial “Gene” Superiority may say)
Again the concept of retaining Free-born warriors after a century of having iron wombs is ludicrous you do not need them! - Their only real purpose is to fight the Dark Caste when they Don't need to Blood their own younger pilots!
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Through out the history of the clans, someone born of two trueborns outside of the Iron Wombs was not allowed to fight for a blood name.
And when they save the Khans life and demonstrate a level of martial prowess as Phelan they too will be allowed to contest for a Bloodname …..
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Afraid of the big bad freeborns.
First, How will the other Clans think of you for using Freeborn warriors like this? You had better hope they win for if they don’t you and your clan will be ridiculed at the next Grand Council ….and even If they do win, expect them to be hit hard as an object lesson in retaliation as well as the enmity of the Clan you did this to … so no friends in the Grand Council for this act ….
Second, Internal Politics, as Khan when you use them how will this affect the internal politics of your Clan? …. Expect a Trial of Position asap!
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How many galaxies does a single clan have? How many areas do they have to guard as well as being used to take from others? Now how many times are you going to lose warriors in any fight? Attrition isn't the nasty word for only the IS. It is done in the clans as well. You are weak if you can't replace your loses.
Wolf
1. Alpha Galaxy, 2. Beta Galaxy, 3. Delta Galaxy, 4. Epsilon Galaxy, 5. Gamma Galaxy, 6. Iota Galaxy, 7. Kappa Galaxy, 8. Theta Galaxy, 9. Tau Galaxy, 10. Sigma Galaxy, 11. Omega Galaxy
So you can’t section your clan Home worlds Holdings into 11 pieces?
And after 100 plus years of constant fighting in the Clan Home worlds don’t you think they have worked out a correct rate of replacement personnel given their current Loss Depletion Deport over this time period?
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The idea that you can dispatch forces to cover a trial held a distance away doesn't work.
Time to re-read the rules of a Trial of Possession – there is nothing in the rules regarding this!
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You fight with the units on location at that moment. I call to ask what forces defend the water hole.
Actually you don’t, you ask, with what forces are you going to defend this water hole – not, what forces are here to defend this water hole …..
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If you do not have anything there, then I win by default
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Possession
Please read the rules again … no, no you do not!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/18/20 02:22 AM
1.158.235.15
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After re-reading the rules of a Trial of Possession once again, I would like to ask a question ….
How would a Clan Officer who has been fighting in Clan Trials of Possession etc where their entire philosophy is based upon the premises of ….
Minimizing Losses;
Eliminating collateral damage and danger to non-combatants;
A Batchall is issued;
The idea a Circle of equals is created;
The prize has been pre-determined;
et al
When fighting in the IS every single one of these philosophical values no longer exist …
Battle is about inflicting the maximum amount of losses;
Collateral damage is quite understandable given the terrain the battle may shift to;
Sneak attacks and any other strategic advantage you can get is acceptable and expected;
There is no circle of equals the Battles can shift all over the planet
There is but one prize the planet itself.
Wouldn’t there be a period of shock as well as coming to terms with how the IS fights – the level of destruction is something the Clans have never seen before ever – the strategies used by the IS would horrify them – blowing up buildings to kill elementals – the amount and variety of traps used – partisan tactics - Guerilla Warfare – IEDs – Poison – Assassination – Commando Strike Group Tactics – Kidnapping –
How would you come to grips with this level of devastation, the amount of people being killed and means of killing warriors?
They are coming from a sanitized version of war to the complete horrors of war – there must have been a psychological shift when it comes to fighting in the IS.
Second Question – after Wolf’s dragoons explained Clan Trials etc ….
Can I ask why the IS didn’t decide to use their own traditions against them ….
The Clans win Planet “X” which has a military facility on it – why can’t the IS return to that planet and start a Batchall – not for the planet – but that military facility or civilian city for that matter – thus if the IS wins the IS force now has Garrisons on the Clan world, that the Clan force had originally taken from the IS.
Why is it that the IS have to fight for the whole planet every time, why can’t they fight for a part of a planet?
Thus establishing a beachhead for any future invasion.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/18/20 03:05 AM
66.74.60.165
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Massacres are not trial of possession, but could be grievance. If a trial is even called. It was to show the clans did fight in cities.
Better learn how the clans work. Leaving out basic facts is why there is so much garbage being said. The clan warriors would rather have the PGCs sit around guarding things, then having to do it themselves. They should be out prowling for a fight where they can find it.
Another reason to have PGCs, is the older units. Do you want them used, or just sitting in storage, waiting for another clan to take them and use them?
No. You can't section out your lands easily. Well that is if you lose any challenges. It is very possible to own a building or mine in the middle of another clans territory. The Falcons Eiry I believe it's called on Huntress is one such example. Oh yeah. They have someone guarding that too. Imagine that. And they include freeborns. The Falcons. Wow.
Now what foolishness is the 'should have figured out the rate of losses by now'. When are you going into battle next? How many will you lose? Will odd things like a gauss shot to the head on a few mechs add into this formula? How many bondsmen are worthy to try to become warriors again? How many in the sibko will graduate? 0? 5? 10?
Please show us the formula to account for all this. And this isn't even counting in challenges against you. Those come at odd times and tends to cause more casualties then you attacking them.
You do realize Theodore did such a batchall. He won the world, but not the rest of the system. So there was no safe access to the world.
Edited by ghostrider (02/18/20 03:10 AM)
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Requiem
02/18/20 07:45 AM
1.158.235.15
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Rules for a Trial of grievance
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Trial_of_Grievance
Provisional Garrison Cluster
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Provisional_Garrison_Cluster
“They are typically considered one tier below second line forces and are typically used to hold rear areas, perform cleanup tasks too dishonorable for front line or second line Clusters, or hold minor objectives.”
Dirty Dozen – with the oldest most decrepit vehicles and ‘Mechs doing the jobs no one else would consider doing.
Thus the idea they would be allowed to participate in a Trial of Possession is ludicrous.
If this is the reason you have maintain PGCs then the need to keep vast amounts of them is again ludicrous.
How many rear areas / minor objectives can one Clan have within Clan Space? In all reality not that many.
As per Clan Jade Falcon Wiki -
In 3062 Clan Jade Falcon held 9 Clan Home Worlds, each of a different value of ownership.
As per Clan Jade Falcon Touman
6th PGC – 1 Binary (10)
22nd PGC – 3 trinaries (45), 3 stars Elementals (15), 1 Binary Aerospace (10)
24th PGC – Two Battlemech stars (10), One aerospace Star (10), a mix of elemental and conventional infantry stars
9th PGC – 5 Binaries (50)
10th PGC – Unknown
5th PGC – 5 Binaries (50)
Total complement 165 Mechs + Unknown 10th – assume 50 = 225 Mechs, 15 Elementals, 20 aerospace and a mix of elemental and conventional infantry stars – Two regiments of IS Mechs
This clearly demonstrates that they are unable to guard any significant amount of worlds within the IS.
The idea of racial “gene” supremecy alone would discount the theory there many PGCs exist at any one time.
The idea that any clan would have vast amounts of these forces to “garrison” a large number of IS worlds can-not be considered plausible.
Thus the whole idea of each Clan possessing many PGCs within the IS to guard vast amounts of worlds cannot be considered to be realistic
Q.E.D.
Quote:
No. You can't section out your lands easily.
And yet it is done since the earliest days of human history. It is incredibly simple – even the IS know how to assign units to certain geographical areas / worlds.
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Now what foolishness is the 'should have figured out the rate of losses by now’.
Example from the Rand Corporation
https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1100/RR1140/RAND_RR1140.pdf
Quote:
You do realize Theodore did such a batchall. He won the world, but not the rest of the system. So there was no safe access to the world.
What we learnt …. Semantics, the Clan love to play word games. You do realize that two can play at that game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/18/20 11:57 AM
66.74.60.165
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The IS fighting over part of a planet. Doesn't this go completely counter to the demand that the IS would not leave any of their civilians in the hands of the clans? They would do a full annihilation of the clans in the IS?
And how to you supply it? The clans would have to give you safe access or you do as the Combine does. Have to try and sneak in and out forces. Given the clans that came in with the initial invasion clan Wolf might be the ones to do so, and even that isn't likely.
Yeah. I mean putting guards up in places that people want to attack, like a factory producing mechs, is easy to understand. Mines, command centers, star ports. You wouldn't station guards at a volcano unless there was research going on. So this sounds a little obvious.
Interesting as it was suggested that you only need to guard one place, then move units to them, when they are attacked.
Now here is another step in guard duty. The entire unit(cluster) is not always in the same place. They break them up into smaller units, sometimes even a single mech or point of elementals. Can you imagine that? Having a single mech guard someplace. That is just insane, as you must have every trooper in one place...
And what do you know. The PGC's have warriors that their performance isn't up to par, yet not bad enough to force retirement. Hmmm....
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