Requiem
03/26/20 07:37 AM
1.158.222.248
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Natasha Born 2973 – so at 3050 she is 77 years – do you know any one that old who has the reflexes of a 20ish old? She is an aberration no matter where you come from .... or given abilities by TPTB .... in the 70’s – decreased strength and flexibility – lose an inch or two as the disks in you back flatten – sorry but this is once more stretching the bounds of reality .... again!
Trial of Position – requires approval from a senior officer
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the clans learned about the 4th war as well as the Fedcom being made. The question is how?
ComStar’s Outbound Light?
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Then realize the Dragoons could NOT have been the only intel gathering mission.
Not included in Canon.
5th Colum Movement - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column
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But how do you think they should prove themselves?
Transfer the entire Wolf’s Dragoons to the Clan’s Invasion front line.
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I am sure Ian had Hanse talk with them before they were hired.
Prince Ian Davion had his younger brother Hanse talk with the brothers Wolf and they disclosed everything about their past – that they were a reconnaissance force for the former SLDF who were there to obain information prior to a massive invasion ……..
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Defecting clans men? Not likely, as they were still all warriors.
And their true-born warriors in PGCs as well as their non warrior caste personnel? They would never defect from a Totalitarian regime to an open and free society where their skills would command a massive amount of money and they could live in luxury for the rest of their life ….. no, they would never defect!
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Bondsman? When did the IS even find out about this?
1st Somerst Strikers – as well as from the first Clan warrior ever captured.
To think that a Clansman was never captured in battle is a little naïve.
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So it was not used for masses VTOLs attacks before the clans, why would it be used after the clans showed up?
Maybe not in your games but in mine they were …..
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Still not believing the IS didn't have the troops or the resources to move them, as well as the ability to strip worlds of defenses in canon.
Compare the number of forces being moved in the opening days of the 4th Succession day to the number that is being attacked in the Clan Invasion – the 4th Succession war is at least 10 times the size difference – there are more than enough Units to move around – Canon the Fed-Com had 270 Regiments more than enough to move against the Clans and still keep their borders locked down.
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Comstar hacked into local networks and gotten the names of those that might be part of a resistance movement?
Sorry but this is beyond belief once again – when the resistance is based upon a cell strategy and there are no lists, it is just individual cells members and a dead letter drop – good luck in figuring out the size of the resistance upon any world.
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The IS DID reverse engineer clan tech. The excuse to not use it was the costs.
From an economics and military standpoint this statement does not hold water!
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So aliens would be the next thing.
Why not it couldn’t be more implausible than some of the stories within the game …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/26/20 07:39 AM)
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ghostrider
03/26/20 08:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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Reread the information in the wiki and elsewhere that has the clans stalling for the invasion using the 4th war as a fact to avoid invading before the Outbound was taken.
Sensing betrayal, the Crusaders lobbied immediately for an invasion. The Wardens succeeded in staving this off until news of the Fourth Succession War, and later the War of 3039, reached the Clans. To the Crusaders, the formation of the Federated Commonwealth suggested the Inner Sphere risked reconstituting the Star League on their own, without the guiding hand of the Clans, while for the Wardens the fact that Great Houses still fought among each other meant a new Star League was a long way off and an invasion would require a large-scale occupation of the entire Inner Sphere, something for which the Clans were ill-suited to undertake.[4][5]
The proverbial straw came in September 3048 when Outbound Light, a ComStar exploration ship, appeared suddenly over the Smoke Jaguar homeworld of Huntress.
No entity that has land holds will send all of their forces off world. And it would be beyond foolish to think to even ask that, with the exception of evicting them.
Still missing the time frame. The clan warriors would not defect to the IS in the first few waves. It wasn't until after the pause did anyone BUT the Jaguars get to bring in the PGCs. So defection wasn't happening before then.
The Somerset Strikers was retconned into the game and even that isn't very reliable. And I seriously doubt any of the first wave or two would have said anything about bondsman, as you have to get them off the world after you take them in order to really interrigate them. Something that didn't happen in canon for the first wave or two.
Again, canon was being argued, then the alt was brought out to defend your position. Seems like there is no logical argument gets the alt answer.
Oh boy. The start of the 4th war was planned out years in advance, where the invasion was a shock. As stated in the canon stories, they thought it was nothing more then pirates taking out a world or two. It was only after the second wave did they realize something bigger was up. So with the 4th war, they knew what and where things were going BEFORE they were moved. It was all planned out. Not sure why it was compared to the clan invasion.
Do you think every group that MIGHT resist is professional? The fact that over the years intel gathering will tell you a lot about who is a member of what group. As Comstar was watching for openings in order to advance their goals, even those that aren't a full fledged combat attack, they would have gotten some intel on who might help them initially, and who might interfer with them after they do. Oh wait. Comstar actually does intel gathering? But everyone else in the IS does so. Also WOB was gaining popularity in Comstar. So it is very possible they prevented the information from getting to certain people.
The economic costs, in my opinion, is a bunch of garbage. But if you want to use canon, then that is what is going on. You can have your own universe do what ever, just don't expect someone else's games to allow it.
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Requiem
03/27/20 06:29 AM
1.158.222.248
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Sensing betrayal, the Crusaders lobbied immediately for an invasion. The Wardens succeeded in staving this off until news of the Fourth Succession War, and later the War of 3039, reached the Clans. To the Crusaders, the formation of the Federated Commonwealth suggested the Inner Sphere risked reconstituting the Star League on their own, without the guiding hand of the Clans, while for the Wardens the fact that Great Houses still fought among each other meant a new Star League was a long way off and an invasion would require a large-scale occupation of the entire Inner Sphere, something for which the Clans were ill-suited to undertake
Given Canon history this statement has nothing to corroborate its validity. Where did this information come from if the exodus road was still a state secret known to but a few?
The only missive from the Dragoons to the Hall of Khans was in 3019-20 and there were no other clan forces within the IS until 3050.
The only other information obtained was from the Outbound light.
So where did this additional information regarding the establishment of the Fed-Com and the war of 3039 come from?
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The clan warriors would not defect to the IS in the first few waves.
AGAIN! …. Free-born NOT True-born defect en mass – so that is the PGC and their technicians and support personnel!
Going from a completely closed system that treats you as less than human to a system that rewards you for your services is a real no brainer as to which system they would choose.
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The Somerset Strikers was retconned into the game and even that isn't very reliable.
And yet Adam Steiner becomes the Archon? …. How can a character be reconned and at the same time become one of its central characters?
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And I seriously doubt any of the first wave or two would have said anything about bondsman, as you have to get them off the world after you take them in order to really interrigate them.
First Clan Warriors would WANT TO educate their captors as to the correct way to live, they are that chatty ….have you ever read anywhere where they were told to only give Name Rank and Serial No?
Second an interrogation can take place ANYWHERE and at any time.
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The start of the 4th war was planned out years in advance
Correct
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where the invasion was a shock.
A completely ill-conceived and poorly thought through endeavor – how can you invade with absolutely no intelligence staggers belief! and then stretching out the Logistics chain …. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of idiots would fight a war in such a manner ….
The reference to the pirates was in regards to the fighting in the Deep Periphery.
As soon as one of your front line forces is attacked and decimated, and reports in with gun camera footage, you know your up against something serious – and as such every light in the strategy wing will be turned on …. Sorry to say it was not the second wave it was more like the second battle report they realizes something is up.
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Not sure why it was compared to the clan invasion.
Comparison between a well though through strategy …. And what should have been incompetency personified where the only saving grace is the presence of advanced technological weapons far advanced than that of the Star League pitted against technology below (Sub-Par) to the Star League …..
In all reality by the third / fourth wave the entire front should have become a quagmire of never ending battles, upon twenty worlds or so, a real meat grinder …. and as the attritional war goes on Inner Sphere opens a second front in the rear and in the deep periphery – given time they should have collapsed due to a lack of reinforcements (Sibko graduates).
But what was created a is a story that has no plausible structure given the back-stories information provided …. So unless changes are made to the back story the main story has little to no plausibility.
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You can have your own universe do what ever, just don't expect someone else's games to allow it.
Everyone should be allowed to form their own universe
Everyone should be allowed to modify Canon history to a story that fits what they believe in.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/27/20 12:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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There had to be other clan intel assets in the IS. Wolfnet was operational before the Dragoons got in, otherwise, they would not have had the information to assist in hitting the CC in 3005.
Also, the Dragoons last report was before the 4th war. When they entered the DC employ. The 4th war was after that.
The character Adam Steiner is valid, but the actions, especially the cartoon wasn't at the time it came out. The Strikers were much like the video games. Based on a few facts, but not enough to really be canon per se. The Enhancement tattoos would not work well with the pilot seated. They would have to be held up like in Babylon 5' furies, or Pacific Rim's Jagermechs. Otherwise, the pilot would be thrashing around in the seat. And to have it just vector graphics would not have worked to improve the pilots combat skills. This could have been done with just another viewing mode in the combat screens.
Still believing that the worlds being invaded had free access to get out of system with valuable information like battle roms? The clans targeted jumpships to keep their invasion quiet. And with the deep periphery, most did not have HPGs stationed on the worlds. A few did, but not many. Costs to build and maintain them verses how much you would make by even having them there is the issue. Comstar would have a few for their own use for things like intel and exploration, but that would be limited.
The plausibility of the story is there. The wanting to insist that the IS had all these resources on hand to do whatever is where this becomes blurred. Even with the industrial revitalization of things like jumpship production, the IS still did not have the ships to just throw away on foolish endevors, like sending them into battle against unknown forces on a whim.
As stated a few times. Forming your own universe isn't the issue. Saying canon is wrong and only yours is correct is. Saying canon has to follow it is.
And other then tournaments, there is no absolute canon game play, as anything you do, will not follow exactly what happens in canon. Most don't even bother to say they become the first lord or what ever. The play In the setting and change where they are at.
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Requiem
03/27/20 06:42 PM
1.158.222.248
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Wolfnet was operational before the Dragoons got in, otherwise, they would not have had the information to assist in hitting the CC in 3005.
Consider this statement ….
There are two Wolfnet operations – there is one assigned to the Dragoons and there is the second Wolfnet that remains within Clan Space.
The one with the Dragoons assisted with all Inner Sphere operations ….
Also, the Dragoons one and only report was in 3019-20 so there is no conceivable way the Clans could have known about the Fed Com Union; the Succession War; the war of 3039 etc until they captured the Outbound light …..
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The character Adam Steiner is valid …. but the actions, especially the cartoon wasn't
And what does Canon have to say about this? ….. other than his actions are considered valid history.
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The Enhancement tattoos
Were in the series ….
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Still believing that the worlds being invaded had free access to get out of system with valuable information like battle roms?
How many times do you read about a retreating Inner Sphere force making it off world …. Nearly all the time? So yes there would be Gun Camera footage …..
Also how do you think ComStar’s First Circuit got its copy of the Gun Camera footage? HPG sent to one of the Successor States GHQ via HPG.
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The clans targeted jumpships to keep their invasion quiet.
Where is this written?
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and with the deep periphery, most did not have HPGs stationed on the worlds.
Not relevant …. once they are in the inner sphere the word will get out via HPG or via JumpShip refugees or Military retreating off world ….
This is when all the Successor States will begin to take notice and begin to move their forces into blocking positions.
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The wanting to insist that the IS had all these resources on hand to do whatever is where this becomes blurred. Even with the industrial revitalization of things like jumpship production, the IS still did not have the ships to just throw away on foolish endevors, like sending them into battle against unknown forces on a whim.
So they have the numbers to wage the 4th Succession War but they don’t have the numbers to move their forces into flanking positions? The Fed-Com, FRR and DC are all fighting the same enemy so unless you take a leap of faith you are not going to get anything done in defeating this new enemy – you have no choice but to weaken certain areas to fight the Clans.
So where is the gothic line or the gustav line when looking at fighting the Clans?
The entire tactics used within the canon history has no real basis on the facts on hand as well as the resources that should have been on hand – by the third wave the entire front should have become a massive war of attrition!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/27/20 06:43 PM)
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ghostrider
03/28/20 12:11 AM
66.74.60.165
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Wolfnet seemed to be one unit. It does not mean they were strictly there for the Dragoons. Conceivable is very possible when you consider that Wolfnet could have been independent to the Dragoons, but worked with them closely until they stopped responding to the clans requests. And since the grand council had been discussing the invasion and using some data to postpone it, there was some other source of information coming in. It may well have been another intel unit, but I would think Wolfnet was most likely.
Adam's stint was retconned into the game. During the time of the cartoon, his actions were not part of the game. So that means they were novel writers looking to make an exciting story, without using the rules of the game. It wouldn't be the only time this was done... The Argo...
The enhancement tattoos were not the ability to use vector graphics to see. It was supposed to enhance the users connection to the mech or power armor. So that was completely false in the cartoon. As stated, and ignored, you could do vector graphics without the need to destroy your nervous system by getting the tattoos.
To my knowledge very few got off a world. Victor being one of the few. Unless they change history again, most worlds fell without anyone getting away.
How would word get out via HPG? Leaving the black boxes out of it, as they were not on every world in canon, how did the HPG network send word? Comstar cutting off all broadcasts, and faking the ones that did go out, how did the truth get sent along their lines?
The periphery would be the ONLY place that comstar didn't prevent the truth, and most didn't believe anything the pirates were crying about. It was in the periphery comstar agreed to help the clans. So that is the only time before a few waves that the truth might have gotten out. The rest would have been ridiculed if it did get out.
I see you still are lacking tactical sense here. The clans drove deep into the IS, but without knowing their target, how do you expect the invasion to go? Most IS attacks on each other, go deep then widen the corridor. So you send all these units into the perceived path, only to find out the clans spread out across the top of the IS, where you pulled forces from. As they did NOT know at the time, the clans were after Terra, you can NOT ignore the fact they may well spread out.
And yet again, this is not some sort of mathematical solution that could play out. Only after the Dragoon meeting did the houses really understand the problem. Until that point, they would do as they always have done. Get intel to respond properly. Striking out blindly wasn't going to happen. And yes. They could not trust comstar to give them the unedited reports.
Though the Clans had been quick to jam all communications and destroy all ships attempting to escape their conquered worlds
Eventually terms were finalized: ComStar would suppress all communications coming or going to worlds targeted by the Clans, and in certain instances pass along military information to them, in exchange for the Clans not meddling in ComStar affairs and allowing it to administrate worlds conquered by them.
Well what do you know.
The second wave of the invasion began on schedule in May. By this point, the governments of both the FedCom alliance and the Draconis Combine had recovered somewhat from their earlier shock and began to mobilize a response, moving fresh supplies and units into the expected path of the invaders.
Interesting what is in the wiki.
The defenders were further aided by how the Jade Falcons regularly underestimated their skill and determination to protect their homes. Although the Jade Falcons had a fair amount of intelligence on the Inner Sphere gathered previously by both Wolf's Dragoons and their own Watch services, the former's reports had been largely dismissed as traitorous gossip and the latter simply ignored.
Edited by ghostrider (03/28/20 12:32 AM)
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Requiem
03/28/20 07:38 AM
1.158.222.248
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Conceivable is very possible when you consider that Wolfnet could have been independent to the Dragoons, but worked with them closely until they stopped responding to the clans requests.
If this is the case the two units would be locked in a civil war within the shadows – how long would it take for the Inner Sphere Security forces to pick up on this shadow war?
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there was some other source of information coming in….
And yet this other source is not written about anywhere …..
Plus if there was another unit wouldn’t they tell the Hall of Khans that they have gone rogue (not destroyed) and as such now pose a security risk – thus shouldn’t they be eliminated to ensure information security?
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Adam
He and his actions are either in …. Or completely out … however everything he did do in the comic was included in the Canon ….. to create yet another set of issues within the Canon Inner Sphere ….
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enhancement tattoos
Clearly visible within the comic …..
The vector graphics were in the neuro helmets …..
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To my knowledge very few got off a world.
Jade Falcon – First Wave
Seventeenth Skye Rangers RCT - he unit was able to withdraw from Barcelona –
Grave Walkers - Reduced to a battalion from a former command of over 2 regiments plus supporting elements – ie. withdraw
Eighth Arcturan Guards - the remaining elements of the Eighth retreated to the planet Somerset
12th Star Guards - The First and Second were nearly destroyed on Steelton and Toland, but were able to withdraw to Wotan.
Winfield's Brigade – On Winfield then The survivors of Winfield's Regiment faced the Fourth Falcon Velites on Butler shortly after – ie withdraw
Steelton Tamar March Militia - the Twelfth managed to hold their positions long enough for elements of the Star Guards and the surviving militia forces (one regiment) to evacuate the planet
So no a few didn’t get off world … many units were able to get their survivors off world – and with them gun camera footage / valuable after action reports etc
So yes the next wave should have been provided with this information and the next wave of Falcons should have found it even more difficult to win
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Comstar cutting off all broadcasts,
Given the number of units that got off world they would have no choice but to deliver the messages otherwise they would have to explain why not – plus if the commanding officers aid got out and he/she knew what was in the message and it was clear there was tampering – good luck in explaining that one.
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see you still are lacking tactical sense here. The clans drove deep into the IS, but without knowing their target, how do you expect the invasion to go?
When they are moving in a straight line how does this matter? There were no waves where they “spread out”.
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Only after the Dragoon meeting did the houses really understand the problem.
Disagree – one clan prisoner and an interrogation chamber and you know the objective!
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ComStar would suppress all communications coming or going to worlds targeted by the Clans
Where is this written?
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and in certain instances pass along military information to them
Why would Focht allow this?
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in exchange for the Clans not meddling in ComStar affairs and allowing it to administrate worlds conquered by them.
Again why – they are Mongols they do not ever allow others to do anything for them unless they are part of their Clan.
This just doesn’t make sense …..
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The second wave of the invasion
Where are the additional forces per world?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/28/20 12:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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Was recon from units in a shadow war with the main intel of a nation? For the agents of Wolfnet go to a shadow war with the Dragoons, would expose them, and the Dragoons themselves didn't have more then contact with a few cells in the intel unit. With them, they are clan. They will not be taken alive if at all possible. So trying to crack the cell network would take more then what the Dragoons had. Maybe even more then Comstar or the houses anti intel could do. But with reading the wiki further, it seems the Watch was active in the IS to do the intel gathering before the invasion.
They were moving in a straightish line. In military tactics, you change up on the enemy when they start responding to your moves. Sucker them into moving troops off other worlds, then hit them. As this was written, the clans didn't really do this, that still does not mean during the invasion, it wasn't a valid concern. Again, the future and end means can not be used to alter the present. Something that seems to be standard with a lot of the ideas on how to deal with things.
Wiki location, under Clan Invasion-The Invasion-Periphery Action, last paragraph.
This is where it is stated in print, that Comstar blocked transmissions and gave out military intel to the clans. And it may not have been Focht but underlings that were assigned to dealing with the clans. Also, Focht didn't agree with it. But he did his job as ordered.
Edited by ghostrider (03/28/20 01:00 PM)
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Requiem
03/28/20 05:56 PM
1.158.222.248
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But with reading the wiki further, it seems the Watch was active in the IS to do the intel gathering before the invasion.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Watch
2980 – Intelser – “could only produce a fragmented and confusing picture of the Inner Sphere, composed as it was of washed-out warriors and lower-caste members whose intelligence-gathering efforts amounted to probing missions of the Periphery.”
3000 – 3005 Dragoon Compromise
3050 – “When the Clan Invasion began, the Watch was formed by order of ilKhan Showers as a blanket service for all of the Invading Clans, each one maintaining their own semi-independent branch, primarily as a counter to the activities of Inner Sphere operatives infiltrating their Occupation Zones.”
Sorry to say there is nothing here to say the Watch had anything within the Inner Sphere between 3025 – 3040 and then returned to Clan space with news of the recent succession war, the merging of two states and the war of 3039.
The Clans information comprises only of the 3019-20 Dragoon Missive and that of Outbound Light when it came to the intelligence used for the Invasion.
This again shows the favoritism given to the Clans – in reality there should have been massive amounts of issues when they invaded …. And yet none!
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that still does not mean during the invasion, it wasn't a valid concern.
Yes it would have been a concern – so where are the flanking forces to stop this? – where are the forces that should have attacked them in the rear to force them to slow their invasion?
In all reality the tactics shown in this invasion is pitiful!
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion#Periphery_Action
“ComStar would suppress all communications coming or going to worlds targeted by the Clans, and in certain instances pass along military information to them, in exchange for the Clans not meddling in ComStar affairs and allowing it to administrate worlds conquered by them. Some in the First Circuit, as well as Focht himself, were uneasy with these terms, but Primus Waterly agreed to them, cementing an alliance between the two groups.”
And yet people were able to get out and yes these people may know of HPG messages being requested to be sent – the absence of messages however will be taken as suspicious.
So what happens when an adept’s who are within the Clan Occupation Zone is taken by one of the IS spy agencies or if they penetrate the HPG compound itself and down load the records?
Then there is Focht – his character would NEVER go along with this – poor writing from the get go! – Focht’s character would have rebelled by either assisting the Inner Sphere or Killing Waterly ….. his character is not another German going along with the war crimes as shown in WW2.
Then there is the issue of the Clans themselves – their entire philosophy is based around a warrior Clan independence – they do not need assistance from anyone – they can just take what they need (Mongol Philosophy) – the idea that they need ComStar to administer their conquered worlds would be a complete anathema to them – it is rule by the gun where the serfs know their place or they are killed government – someone dropped the ball on this, there is no way they would ever accept assistance from anyone other than that of their own Clan!
Sorry to say but this union just doesn’t work on many levels it is just too implausible to be considered with any reality.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/29/20 03:12 AM
66.74.60.165
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First, it would depend on how long before the clans came in that the coms were shut down. I would bet the normal excuse would be the station had issues, and could not transmit or receive. Now if someone was waiting for an emergency call, then they might be worried about something. Until a while later, most would not have thought it an invasion by the periphery boogieman.
Except to get themselves interdicted, why would any IS agency kidnap a comstar personnel? This makes no sense.
It was only later, that they figured comstar was working with the enemy,
Not sure if you realize it, but even the DC and CC weren't that bad. This concept might be done by the clans, but not be the IS. Or more to the point, they would NOT say anything to comstar, as it would show they HAD done it. So in the end, how do you accuse comstar of this?
There is the loyalty of oath. Swearing to uphold the first circuits commands no matter what, is something that would make it hard to turn on Walterly. Only when she showed she had lost touch with reality, did he finally kill her. And look what happened. WOB was formed. Yes, reorganizing the company had a large part in this as well.
Several things about the assumption of the clans Mongol outlook.
They were after taking out the enemy and taking lands, yet did NOT want to administer them. So the order that was formed in the end times of the Star League, which held the coms in their hands would do fine. They could always remove the workers if things got bad.
With the idea that they wanted it all, would negate the entire history of the clans, as they would never get into the IS unless only one remained. They would constantly fight each other for anything and everything. Sooner or later, even that would turn on itself, as different warriors would think they should be in control and try to take it. Moreso then the trials allowed.
Implausible seems to be the word used a lot. Maybe the lack of seeing things from the other point of view is the issue. There are major holes in things, but understanding what they were going for will stop the implausible response. Down right stupid does work in some cases, but not all.
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Requiem
03/29/20 06:46 AM
1.158.222.248
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the normal excuse would be the station had issues
To lose one could be considered normal,
But to consider more than this number in a relatively short period of time?
Has this ever happened before (Precedence)?
Sorry but this excuse would not be considered believable – send in the spies to find out what is really going on?
With the safe return of your spy ComStar will be grilled over hot coals for their actions!
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why would any IS agency kidnap a comstar personnel
Taking an acolyte on a Clan held world would be achievable if professionals made the attempt – then with the right inducement they could find out what the First Circuit is really up to ….
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how do you accuse comstar of this?
Easy – what happens when all three Comstar Leaders on each of the Capitol worlds – Fed Com and DC ask them to explain their actions when presented with all the evidence? They then demand Waterly’s removal as well as ceasing all their activities with the Clans or all three will Nationalize their HPG facilities with immediate effect – they will also put a hold on all their funds held within the banks of ComStar – and all their personnel with immediate effect.
They will also make public their actions to the entire IS even if this means via pony express!
As per all workplaces they will agree – how else can these individuals get a promotion unless they remove the Waterly?
It gives them the perfect reason to get rid of her ….
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There is the loyalty of oath.
And how many actually believe this? When you are sent to the most distant world with poor living standards – as per the worlds near the Deep Periphery wouldn’y you become a little bit disenchanted over time?
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Only when she showed she had lost touch with reality, did he finally kill her.
And collaborating with an unknown Totalitarian military units in not loosing touch with reality?
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They were after taking out the enemy and taking lands, yet did NOT want to administer them.
Trial of POSSESSION …. It is in the title when you take possession it comes with it all the responsibilities of administration!
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Implausible seems to be the word used a lot.
When the Canon story gets plausible I will say so … so far more implausible than plausible …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/29/20 12:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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With Comstar sending out 'normal' messages, the ones behind the lines would be a little less concerned, while those on world would not know multiple systems have 'gone dark'.
It is very possible multiple HPGs have gone down, but not likely in on area. You are talking thousands of stations across the IS, and more then a few in the periphery.
The first excuse I can think of, is the clans took over the base and forces the peaceful comstar techs to do as they say or be punish, possibly killed. It would suggest that the first circuit is up to something, but not proof from just one person. I do know with Hanse, he would be very suspicious of them, as they were working against him in the 4th war. Which may well be how they were starting to see the messages being faked. Intel agents having to put in specific code phrases and such when sending messages. If they don't have them, then the message is questioned.
But this does not answer why an IS agent would kidnap a Comstar worker? It sounds great, but it would be like taking a Vatican member. Not as important as messing with comstar directly, but still something that will cause problems. Honestly, if you were to do this, hitting one in the Combine if FC, would be most likely.
Promotion by assassination does not work like that. Only one of the first circuit can be promoted, and doing this sets up a very bad precedence. It would also require both nations to make the accusations at the same time. This isn't likely in the before the year break. Also, Comstar would not give in to the demands of the house lords like that. Deny, deny, deny.
Even though the first circuit would probably love to remove Walterly, it just isn't that simple.
Disenchanted is one way people can go. Hardened to such actions is another. Most of those that can, will transfer out of there. Some would actually like being there, as they can wield more power then normal. The masses are more likely to give you what you ask in return for getting them out. Not that you will, but the promise is enough.
Being a soldier, you are sent to another country for a war. You see the horror of it, but do you try and quit because of what is going on? It is called desertion. Comstar will have something like it, and ROM will be sent out to fix this issue. Even if it means the death of the person. Basically, you do as your told, or your the one to suffer. Their positions in Comstar are a little more comfortable then a lot of jobs outside of it. They don't worry where or even if the next meal will be there. Except for work outside the station, you are not normally exposed to the elements, and even that work is over with when done.
Belief in a cause, is not the same as belief in a leader. Doing as you are told, by the leader of an organization that you believe in, causes you to do things you don't want or like. No matter what you might want to say, people just do not do things like kill, without being psychotic, like that. And as much as you might think so, Fredrick did NOT do something like that when he thought the Archon was going against the wishes of the people. So why now? He had to make decisions, and some of them were poor as well.
Look at the history of the clans when running things. Military is the main thing trueborns want to deal with. Running factories and such is up to the failed warriors. And there is a limit to the power that you would want to give them. Plus the rampant thought of only I can do it right in the clans would prevent their own people from doing so. If Comstar gets it wrong, they can always remove them from the spot. But the great warriors do not want to be sidelined by running a world. The clan and all clans, yes. But then they would have a large staff to do so.
Not saying canon is the best, most of it is plausible if you don't have the thought of only one way is correct. As with Gundam Wing, it is highly implausible for a single fighter, the gundams, to have far more firepower then battleships and such. FTL is another touchy subject. Until proven by doing so, there is no FTL possible. Wormholes might well do nothing but crash anything that goes into them, with them going absolutely no where. Warpspeed may well rip the vessel apart before it actually catapults the ship at high speeds. The ultimate weapons that destroy a planet that is build by someone is the same way. The distance you would have to be from an exploding world, makes the range almost impossible to achieve. So yeah. All games have a few basic flaws if you want to really get into it. You ignore them to have fun. The story line isn't as important as keeping rules and such consistent. You can invade worlds with made up units at any time. You can't fight the same battle if you change the rules and expect the same outcome.
The adventure packs show this. Do the same combat even a second time and it comes out differently. A single dice roll can change it entirely.
And any result other then the fluff changes canon.
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Requiem
03/29/20 04:32 PM
1.158.222.248
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You are talking thousands of stations across the IS, and more then a few in the periphery.
But when a cluster of HPGs within the same are go dark for no real reason this will cause alarm bells to go off – plus when they are being invaded is this when the Acolytes are told they will be working with the new invaders who have arrived from beyond the Inner Sphere and were once the SLDF and yet are now a Technologically advanced Totalitarian Warrior Caste Base Society hell bent on taking over everything?
When this is explained isn’t it plausible than more than one will want to protect their homes and their loved ones from this fate and will send out messages asking for help?
Sorry to say but this absolutism written into the story just doesn’t work.
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I do know with Hanse, he would be very suspicious of them, as they were working against him in the 4th war.
Not to mention that his and the Lyran security forces had a secret shadow war – so really there is no trust there whatsoever!
This is why the Black Boxes would have been manufactured in vast numbers!
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But this does not answer why an IS agent would kidnap a Comstar worker? It sounds great, but it would be like taking a Vatican member.
Consider watching the Scarlet and the Black - the film tells the story of Monsignor Hugh O'Flaherty, a real-life Irish Roman Catholic priest who saved thousands of Jews and escaped Allied POWs in Rome.
Information is required and Comstar Adepts have it – one way or another Inner Sphere spies are going to get it.
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Honestly, if you were to do this, hitting one in the Combine if FC, would be most likely.
Would they even know what is going on? Wouldn’t it be a need to know scenario – when you are invaded then you will need to know what the First Circuit has arranged with the invaders …..
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Promotion by assassination does not work like that.
Sorry, but yes it does …. The only way for some to get the top job is to remove the person in that position one way or another!
It is then up to each individual to gain the votes necessary to take the top job.
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Also, Comstar would not give in to the demands of the house lords like that. Deny, deny, deny.
When confronted with absolute truth …. And with exposure that the entire IS will know what you have been up to? Ie. Richard Nixon and Watergate?
In my opinion yes it is that simple!
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Comstar will have something like it, and ROM will be sent out to fix this issue.
Yes I agree – and yet many may be open to suggestions / bribes etc. Plus over time you do form relationships with the indigenous population – so when they are hurt by the Clans are you going to just sit there and do nothing?
Some may do nothing …. And yet for others this will be a call to war!
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Belief in a cause, is not the same as belief in a leader. Doing as you are told, by the leader of an organization that you believe in, causes you to do things you don't want or like.
True – but be careful of absolutism statements – this cannot be said true of every Adept.
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Fredrick did NOT do something like that when he thought the Archon was going against the wishes of the people. So why now? He had to make decisions, and some of them were poor as well.
In the future we see Focht as having learned from the mistakes of the past – he has gained some wisdom – he has matured – what we do not see is him reverting to the old person he once was.
This is where things go off the rails – the new Focht is not the same person as the old – he would not betray the Inner Sphere because he was ordered to do so.
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Look at the history of the clans when running things.
I did …. You must have a Clan True-born as the overlord of the captured territory who will tell the peasants what to do!
Under him/her are the lackeys came with the invasion fleet and know what is expected of them …. They are the ones who actually run the factories etc the problem is they have never had to establish a massive bureaucracy – especially when one would has a population of 20 times that of your entire Clan’s population back home …. So good luck in explaining how they could govern this single world without a permanent and massive garrison?
Comstar would never be allowed any control over any planet – they would have to recognize their new Clan Overlords first!
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Not saying canon is the best, most of it is plausible if you don't have the thought of only one way is correct.
The more I look the more implausible scenarios I find ….. so how can the ….
Ghost Bears and the Nova Cats move their entire population to the IS?
exodus Road HPG stations be created?
exodus road logistics fleets be maintained in vast numbers?
idea that s sibko reinforcement scenario play out within the long run?
Partisan activity within the Clan rear deplete their forces numbers quicker than that of the front lines?
idea that Clan Free-born don’t run away?
idea that Clan Techno logy be replicated within the IS?
IS military don’t use omnis?
And where is the dedicated anti elemental weapons for IS infantry?
Sorry to say but this is just the tip of the problems that were never really fixed - too many problems equates to a completely implausible story. Basic flaws are one thing but what we have here is huge holes that upset the entire history of the game world – a fact checker and an editor would be nice prior to publication!
As long as the engineering remains constant you can have you FTL drive …. This is why it is called science fiction.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/30/20 03:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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They didn't go dark. They cut the current news out, and faked the rest, As for the workers, how do you know they even met a clansman? The manager and front desk would deal with them, while the rest still report to the manager. Hostile takeovers of companies happen.
As the order to just do their job is standard, why would they break with their training? They get given what information the bosses want and that's it. Hell, we don't even know if they are allowed out of the station, except to work on it. They may not want to either. Not sure of their work places.
I don't think anyone needs to know you are working with the clans. They are just another invader, and if they leave the stations details alone, then what is the difference in who owns the planet?
Yes. One person would get the job, but then why would you think they would not be assassinated? Sooner or later, you have so many primuses, that you wonder if anyone is left to run the stations. They could well have forced a vote to remove her. It probably came down to WHO would get promote.
Fredrick/Focht would do as he was told, as that is his job. He is to deal with the military, and leave the rest of running comstar to the first circuit. Fred would have sent assassins against them. Hell, I believe he sent a few after Katrina before she took the throne. Being changed, would this still be his way of dealing with things?
The clans tend to have a bunch of waste in running things except the military. As much as they supposedly hate waste, the 'civilian' side of it is mired in waste. Too many failed warriors with freeborns to do much with them. As Cray said before, they use more people to do things then really needed.
Now is the time to use another of your own sayings back on you. Why doesn't the clans have more ships then the IS? They never lost the ability to make them and warships. Also, without a number printed, this becomes another discussion about the numbers the IS has to send to the front lines.
As you forget that even in the game, other things are needed to be done and money spent on them. You can not just order a million rifles and not pay for them. Well when you have to rebuild after raids and such, as well as pay for all the government workers, as well as keep the military upkeep, without even expanding and such, it eats up the tax money very quickly.
But let's answer a few of those questions.
The moving of the population may well have been done with the merchant fleets as well as the Ravens, moving those people into the IS. This is not saying they didn't have the ships to begin with. Just other clans 'renting' some out. Even a few trials of just using those ships could well have happened.
Partisan actions did occur, but the clans snuffed them out. With the local government, or Comstar, trying to keep peace, it may well have let the clans off the hook to pacify the worlds. For some, Comstar was seen as the government. Then again, 'messages' from Melissa or Hanse could be received and show across the world telling them to behave. Takashi/Theodore in the DC. How does the general public know different? Anyone that would try to suggest otherwise, is just trying to stir up trouble for the masses.
The omni situation is screwed up, as well as the clan tech. I can understand a few runs being flawed and bugged, with techs also not knowing anything about them. Standardizing pods would be a nightmare, as each company would think their design is the only one that works. But after a few years, this would go away.
The anti elemental weapons were left out, not because of something in the game, but TPTB want mechs being the main focus. That doesn't happen when infantry can kill elementals and mechs with such weapons.
So the FTL is ok for being magical, but everything else has to be completely logical? Might want to rethink that. Then again, a PPC is magical in it's working. There really isn't any way to control a bolt of lighting being shot out. It would go to the nearest ground. I know it isn't real lightning, but charge particles, but really. A normal one can't focus well under 90 meters, yet some extra electronics makes it so it can.
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Requiem
03/30/20 05:13 AM
1.158.222.248
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They didn't go dark. They cut the current news out, and faked the rest
And what happens in three months time when every House realizes that at the time these messages were sent they were behind enemy lines?
As for the Clans only dealing with the Manager – highly unlikely – remember the Clans need every HPG they capture to be used by them to communicate with Hall of Khans or with other units on other planets within their invasion corridor.
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I don't think anyone needs to know you are working with the clans. They are just another invader, and if they leave the stations details alone, then what is the difference in who owns the planet?
What is the first thing every conquer does …. They inform the people, via the planets media, that they are the lords of the planet, they then put the population under a lockdown, they then read them the new rules by which they will be expected to abide …..
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Yes. One person would get the job, but then why would you think they would not be assassinated?
Rome – and Rome’s Emperors.
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Fredrick/Focht would do as he was told, as that is his job.
This is not the Focht I remember reading – he was no longer Fredrick – he was a new person.
Canon has two distinct personalities early in the clan invasion and one later in the invasion.
So which is the real Focht?
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The clans tend to have a bunch of waste in running things except the military.
Administration appears to be a problem …. It is a wonder they ever got anything completed in Clan Home Worlds.
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Why doesn't the clans have more ships then the IS?
Khans are blinkered to everything that are not ‘Mechs, Elementals or Aerospace Fighters ….
Warships are just a waste of resources …. They are hardly ever called upon to fight a Trial of Possession etc …. They are only used during Annihilation or Absorption ….
Also … Clans do not have taxes…..
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The moving of the population may well have been done with the merchant fleets
Who has 8,000 Ships and 25,000 Dropships available to transport the Ghost Bears?
Even renting some out this seems to be a little high.
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Partisan actions did occur, but the clans snuffed them out.
Considering how professional their intelligence operation wing is … and how they dumped the job onto PGCs … this seems very unlikely. Also ComStar does not have access to military / police support to hunt down partisans.
Implausible that they could be able to achieve this – they just do not have the experience or the training to undertake anti partisan activities.
As for stirring up trouble – this is why when a planet is conquered both Fed-Com and DC put 3 -10,000 infantry on planet within a RCT to garrison the planet.
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So the FTL is ok for being magical, but everything else has to be completely logical?
What is the difference between FTL and a Jump-ship?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/30/20 12:24 PM
66.74.60.165
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What did the houses do when they did find out? Not a whole lot, as there is little they could do at the time. Might not understand this, but the IS was fighting the clans. To accuse then try to prosecute Comstar would have really been disasterous for their side. Then it comes down to who would judge them, and enforce punishment. The FC/DC/FRR couldn't do much, other then denounce them. Even with the black boxes, they needed more timely information. At least it wasn't in the story line, but unless comstar was messing with their coms outside of targeted worlds, that speed was needed.
Then who at the station would the clans deal with in order to send messages? The house leaders dealt with them, as well as the higher ups stationed on their world. I seriously doubt they would be talking to the techs that keep up maintenance and such.
What does the social new media have to deal with Comstars people not having to know who was in charge? They did their jobs as normal. No matter who the customer was.
Not sure. People don't always show their true feelings or thoughts. Both could be, yet both could be just a fascade. As the IS runs as a feudal system, they do as their lords tell them. When you don't, you become the traitor that needs to be taken down, if possible. And it has to be done in a way that the masses think is correct. Otherwise revolts and rebellions happen.
I have not heard the clans never use warships in trials. I want to say a few, they did. One big one is the Northwind Highlanders hit on the Jaguars line. The Nova Cats used a warship to take out the Jaguars one. I would think they used them as they did almost every other weapon of war.
Next time you suggest moving a dozen regiments, remember the numbers you gave for moving the Bears population. The combat equipment is much easier then the rest of the personnel.
And again. Why can't the clans have a large amount of ships? It isn't as likely to be as high as what would be needed if they were using something other then scout jumpships with gazelle dropships, but it seems you want them to have just enough to move around clan space and that's it. Talking about nerfing someone. I know you are trying to justify the clans not taking out the FC, but things like this show just how much you want to destroy the game, because they did hurt the FS/FC.
Assuming all the partisans had deep intense military training on how to perform resistance actions? That is NOT something the government wants, as they tend to be used against THEM. And with things like Elementals, the normal hunting rifle doesn't do much. Catching them outside of the armor is much more effective, but there lies an issue. I doubt they would be outside of their bases when out of armor. Trueborns just not wanting to be in masses of freeborns. And IS worlds are very crowded when compare to clan worlds.
And to get more information, how many RCTs were stationed on the border worlds at the time of the invasion?
The difference between FTL and jumpships? Jumpships use a form of FTL to do what they do. It is still unproven to be possible. So until it is, it is magic. Educated guesses say it's possible, but then there are a few things that were possible but wrong. The A bomb did not ignite the air in the world as originally feared.
But maybe concentrate on Gundam wing and such. They use the magical things so much more then BattleTech. Though they still like to destroy their own arguments on why things can't happen in the game, but does in other forms, they still try to make things be somewhat based in reality. Go onto a Star Wars site and explain why the Deathstar and Planet Killer is impossible to make as well as hyperspacing something that big.
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Requiem
03/30/20 09:17 PM
1.158.222.248
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What did the houses do when they did find out? Not a whole lot, as there is little they could do at the time.
This is not reality, this is TPTB interfering with reality once more – rewrite required!
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to prosecute Comstar would have really been disasterous for their side.
No ….. 50 ComGuard Regiments on the front line as penance is hardly disastrous!
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Then it comes down to who would judge them, and enforce punishment.
All the House Lords will judge and enforce punishment …. reformation …. breaking contact with the clans (once they have extracted all the information they have / or can obtain on the Clans) …. transferring the ComGuard to the front ….. or the complete and immediate Nationalization all HPG stations in the inner sphere to their respective Houses …. Terra will be isolated and quarantined.
During all the years Comstar enforced it’s will wouldn’t every house have devised a plan to take control of all these HPG stations at once and with their own techs to take control of these stations? …. It would be prudent to do so!
And yes they can do this, it is very achievable by all the Houses – what happed to Comstar and their HPGs when the Republic of the Sphere shut them down for good?
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They did their jobs as normal. No matter who the customer was.
Really? ….. sorry no I do not believe this absolutism ……
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I have not heard the clans never use warships in trials.
Jade Falcon touman - the Aegis-class heavy cruiser Janice Hazen - Hellion's AeroSpace Fighter support destroyed the ship
Read the warship lists within all the toumans …….
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Next time you suggest moving a dozen regiments, remember the numbers you gave for moving the Bears population.
How does moving 25,000,000 people either 110 super carriers or 8,000 to 10,000 normal ships equate the the numbers of transporting one to 12 RPG at 5,000 to 10,000 personnel each - especially when during the 4th succession war they were able to transport 100’s of regiments and RCTs during its opening days ….. sorry but this just doesn’t hold water … the DC, Fed-Com, (The now defunct CC) and the FWL should be able to move 350 to 400 Regiments (plus RCTs) in one hit easy – coordinate this amount all at once upon every clan held world in one hit – say good by to the entire Clan armada within a month!
This is the level of transport capabilities I believe in when it come s to the IS’s Jump-ship capabilities circa 3050 ….
And this is why what is written has no meaning …. The story doesn’t have more than about half a dozen units moving any any one time … it is _____________.
PS RCTs can move – look at the time table by the 3rd wave most of the entire Fed-Com / DC military could have been moved to surround and attack the Clans at once!
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Next time you suggest moving a dozen regiments, remember the numbers you gave for moving the Bears population.
Their Inner Sphere ship numbers were given with their bids …. They are a determining factor in the game that cannot change … a constant …. That is unless they cheat the numbers as per the small number of PGCs and how effective they were (where in reality they were so small and with such outdated equipment – their effectiveness should have been very minimal within the IS – The Jade Falcons only had 2 IS Regiments worth – Really? This number is supposed to quell 30 – 40 rebellious worlds at once? Reality please!)
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Assuming all the partisans had deep intense military training on how to perform resistance actions?
How many would be former militia …. How many could be trained by this militia …….
Who said I would be taking elementals outside of their base with hunting rifles?
Inside the base walking around they are just one very large target – this is what a sniper does?
Outside the base traps are the way to go - killboxes.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/30/20 11:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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Stop playing the game or using canon is required. Make your own game completely, as you are the only one that is screaming it needs to be done. You don't like it, don't play it.
It is very much in a reality that someone commanding the interstellar coms would have the power to avoid being held to justice in the middle of a war. It is very much how a lot of powerful people took control over the masses. The IS can not take the coms systems and run them. Not sure why this is so hard to believe.
You really think Comstar would send the Comguards to fight the clan, instead of wiping out the rulers of the IS? This goes completely against their doctrine of taking them out. That doctrine changed when Walterly was killed. So remember your words about keeping the entities true to their roots. Comstar would not allow any house to tell them what to do. Coms black out with the guards hitting sensitive locations when ever, as the comstar fleet, with warships would maneuver better then the IS fleets and forces. The pony express works only when someone believes it. The HPG network allows them to get ahead of the rebel rousing nuts that are saying that comstar went rogue. Not saying the rulers wouldn't be dead by the third world that news reached. I would think some of the ROM assassins worked for the government for just such an occasion. And back ground checks would go thru comstar's network. Hence the shadow war being so devastating to the FC.
Maybe the question of who would enforce the judgement on comstar wasn't clear enough. NO one, not even combined houses, could hold them to any sort of judgement, and that is even IF they could all agree to something. Might need to reread history, as there is so many instances, of petty warlords getting away with this sort of action. They are minor compared to comstar.
How many of comstars workers refused to serve someone from a nation they didn't like? Such as an FC worker refusing to send someone from the DCs messages or give them ones they received? Even someone who hated Hanse, would still do the job they were hired for, even if it means puking the vile up after they do so.
So why did you say the clans didn't use warships in trials if you knew better? Might need to reread your own posts, as now you are answering the questions you brought up. Is this conversation that taxing that you can't remember what you wrote?
You actually said that you would take out elementals when not in armor. But then everyone has a military grade sniper rifle in their bedrooms with armor piercing rounds to go with it.
Not sure why you think the ship count for the clans would not change as they fought in the IS. Jumpships and even dropships are not part of the bid as much as the mechs and elementals are. They are transports, no more. Unless specifically bid into a fight, which the general invasion bid didn't seem to include that. The entire fleet was set by the Khans of each clan, otherwise, the Wolves would have had more then 2 warships. The numbers reflected the normal ships used by the units that were bid in. They could change as things changed, such as a jumpship having problems or a dropship that is damaged or destroyed. This would be keeping up with the replacement concept of their own trials.
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Requiem
03/31/20 04:51 AM
1.158.222.248
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The IS can not take the coms systems and run them. Not sure why this is so hard to believe.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/ComStar
“Cornered by the RAF, the Blessed Order was ultimately crushed by the Republic of the Sphere with all of ComStar remaining within the Republic paying the price, forcibly integrated into the Republic, with all their assets absorbed. No longer a truly separate or independent order, ComStar keep their internal organization ranks, but reported directly to Republic leadership.”
So what happened to all the ComStar Facilities outside of the Republic then? Ans – they were absorbed into each House.
If it can occur during Forces Republic it can occur during the Clan’s invasion!
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You really think Comstar would send the Comguards to fight the clan, instead of wiping out the rulers of the IS?
Focht would go along with it …..
It is not about taking them out – it is about reforming them and using them ….
ComStar may fight back however, if done correctly Walterly should have been coxed off of Terra for a meeting with all the Successor Lords – and there she would be put on trial.
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NO one, not even combined houses, could hold them to any sort of judgement,
This is in error …. It can be completed; all it takes is the will to do it …
In the far future when the Republic kills off ComStar what are these works going to do …. Down tools and demand a return to ComStar’s former glory?
Same here – the House Lords should have their own people who can take over HPG stations if necessary – this should be standard operating procedure if necessary – every state should have this ready to go as part of their contingency protocols.
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Not sure why you think the ship count for the clans would not change as they fought in the IS. Jumpships and even dropships are not part of the bid as much as the mechs and elementals are.
And yet Jump-ships and Drop-ships were included in each Clans Invasion TO&E – It does not matter if they were included in the bid or not, what it does indicate is a serious tactical error with regards to these two to the detriment of its military.
Any additional increase in Jump-ships / Drop-ships are 6 month away (minimum);
However, Warships are included in the Bid! So if they are destroyed – they are gone! Permanently ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/31/20 07:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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At the time of the clan invasion, it is written, that after operation scorpion, the houses did take control of the HPGs and couldn't use them. With the time of the RotS, It could well be that part of the return of the HPGs, comstar teaches some how to use them. So for canon, it wasn't possible at that time. The alt could well have each house have their own network but that means coms from other nations would NOT be truthful for any sort of intel. Being 'neutral' gave the writers a way to allow interstellar coms to work and not be blown up with each raid or invasion.
Imagine each house ran their own, and a full scale invasion happens. First thing to go is the coms. No way to transmit a help message if the system is taken down before you could send it.
Walterly would never knowingly leave Terra for a meeting with any house lords, much less all of them.
Set up a live feed to discuss things, but that trap is older then most of the nations on earth. Arrest as soon as they show up.. Any sort of trip would be secret.
As for Focht, he could be replace if needed. Waterly seen something in him to keep him around.
In canon, the CC would not support such a thing. And what you are talking about would very much be set up like WOB/Comstar era. With the RotS, they had Terra and a lot of worlds around them. There would be no interdiction that would do much beside get stomped. And as the Comguards took a beating during the truce battle, I don't think they would be in shape to resist the RotS, even if they wanted to. So different circumstances. Thinking about it, the FWL would probably vote against it, and even the DC might want to avoid it for a while. Walterly was Precentor of Luthien before becoming the primus. The probably would swing a deal with them to keep the coms working in the DC, and for their intel agents, while blocking the FC, once the clan truce was in effect.
I don't think the Comguards would have done better in the field before the truce fight. They did not have the coordination nor the quick time to redeploy, had they been on separate worlds. Even then, they would not send all their units, as some HPGs got raided by pirates, real or scam, so they would keep them to guard those facilities.
There are several units that use certain jumpships and dropship that they do not own, or are part of their unit. They tend to be added into the TO&E, so you understand how they normally got to their battle fields on other worlds. The Falcons would have had serious issues long before they did with the few jumpships they had. You can drop a lot of forces on one world, but not drop a few here, jump, drop a few more, jump and so on.
As for minimum of 6 months away, the whole idea of the reserve clan was to provide assistance what asked for. Which does explain how the Falcons hit more worlds without using the warships as transports.
I don't know if they would deny or grant a request by a clan to allow them to replace a warship. So that one is not going to be answered at this time by me.
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Requiem
04/01/20 07:27 AM
1.158.222.248
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being 'neutral' gave the writers a way to allow interstellar coms to work and not be blown up with each raid or invasion.
So, what happens post Fortress Republic when ComStar no longer exists?
How is anyone going to trust the information they receive?
I stand by my statement if it can happen then it can happen 3050ish
The only way for ComStar to survive a trial of Treason is to give the House Lords Walterly’s head, and they would ….
And if they did nationalize the HPG grid – the grid doesn’t just stop – it keeps on going just under different management!
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Walterly would never knowingly leave Terra for a meeting with any house lords, much less all of them.
It all comes down to the phrasing of the invitation – so yes she would go!
How many times since the Greeks – Romans - Borgia’s and beyond has this worked?
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In canon, the CC would not support such a thing.
And in the alt. the CC are dead
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Walterly was Precentor of Luthien before becoming the primus.
And when she has been proved to be conspiring against the DCMS – actively providing the enemy with information against the DCMS – send in the Spirit Cats / Black Dragon operatives ……
Plus thie introduction of the ComGuards is the first step in remaking the SLDF.
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Clan TO&E JumpShips
This amount in their original TO&E transported their complete Touman – take them out and their ability to move from A to B is reduced.
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using the warships as transports.
They would have used their Warships as transports – every available spot would have a drop-ship.
Warship replacement – do not think so – they bid war-ship X if destroyed X cannot be replaced with Y.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/01/20 12:41 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is no way to charge comstar with treason. They are not, and never were part of, any of the houses. Even aiding and abetting the enemy couldn't be used. These are for citizens of a nation, not a separate nation.
Walterly and even Focht could be charged with warcrimes, but as a whole, Comstar is as much a different IS nation as the DC is to the FC.
But even war crime would have the issue of an impartial jury, as well as trying to enforce such a thing in 3050 era.
With not being able to trust the coms network is why they had to be 'neutral'. Yet this does not change issues that someone getting the messages, and passing them on, weren't withholding information from the others, as what happened with the ISF with the black Dragon society.
Walterly was not stupid or desperate enough to fall for that one. If they wanted to talk to her, should would be egotistical, and wily enough to have them use the HPGs or some to Terra. I don't think she talked with any of them face to face off Terra during the entire clan invasion. The alt could make that logic mistake, but it would be breaking with her character. Being manipulative, on the border of fanatically thinking she could cause the downfall of both, plays into this, but Scorpion was a snap rage decision.
As stated with the treason charge. Conspiring against the DC wouldn't hold. Comstar was not part of the DC. They could be expelled, like any other corporation in a country that assists a hostile nation, but they are not citizens. Though the DC does have an advantage over the FC in this case. They are not as lenient on certain crimes as the FC is. In the end, operation Scorpion is a problem. Comstar could well have told the house lords that the clans threatened to destroy all coms if they didn't stay out of the conflict, but the re-education camps would have proven that wrong. It does put the point on Focht being able to kill her without facing trial from the first circuit. They would have put him on trial for such, so they can keep Comstar workers from thinking it was ok to do so.
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Requiem
04/01/20 05:14 PM
1.158.222.248
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There is no way to charge comstar with treason.
Yes there is … there is even precedent for this in history - Germany post WW1 …. War Reparations! …. WW2 …. Japan and Germany again ….. Nuremberg Trials …..etc …
It can be done …. It just takes the political will to do so.
It does not matter they are not part of any of Houses – they are still a part of the Inner Sphere and as such they must act accordingly.
There would not be a jury – this would be determined by the Judges on the panel …. Placed on by the House Lords.
Walterly – egotistical yes, wiley yes, she was definitely not stupid but she was extremely vain …..in the event she does not know of the trap her vanity will get her off Terra – and then her fate will be set in stone.
As for the charge against ComStar – “Treason - Conspiring against the Inner Sphere”
Yes she may threaten to use Operation Scorpion – but hopefully there are people who will stop this from occurring – if it does occur, expect ComStar to cease as an Inner Sphere power – retreat into the FWL if Thomas is still in charge (even though there is no way he could have survived the explosion that killed his father).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/01/20 07:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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Those instances were NOT treason. It was the losers of the war being forced to pay for the damages they did. A large chunk of wars has had that.
The best you can do is declare them as the enemy and go from there.
The IS isn't a single entity. That would be like saying the U.S or U.K are responsible for what Russia did in those wars. And I didn't hear so much about Italy and others having the same severity of penalties as the two main ones, yet without their help, the war would not have started.
I don't know where vain comes from, but power hungry is more likely. Looks was not the motivator of her actions but the thought of being more powerful then the SL's first lord.
Now if you are talking about being vain about her vision being the only possible outcome that can happen, then maybe vanity MIGHT be there.
For the alt, which no one but you has any numbers on, having her commit to protecting the IS even before the clans get into the IS would work. Using the wrong terms won't. Treason can only be put against members of a Nation that betrays that nation. The IS, as a whole, were not united in the least.
That would require more then a treaty promising to protect the IS from invaders BEFORE the clans even showed up. And even that isn't treason. As there was no such treaty, they simply sided with the enemy at a horrible cost to the FC/DC. I don't like that part of the story line, but it does allow a more reasonable way of handling the invasion to allow the clans a large chunk to keep inside the IS for further story lines with them.
Treason charges would have been done in the 4th war if it was even possible to accuse them of it. Only the FC would be the plaintiff. The rest would be neutral or even defend Comstar for protecting their assets, including the other houses.
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Requiem
04/02/20 07:31 AM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
Those instances were NOT treason.
No, they were not … what they were about is holding foreign powers accountable through a judicial / political process.
And isn’t this the aim?
It is ensuring a power is held accountable … when it can be done, and in this scenario it can be done.
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…. Vain ….
The definition includes abilities – doesn’t she believe her abilities, what she can do is far above that of everyone else?
And in this case she is walking around with rose colored glasses.
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The charge of Treason
It can be done, justification can be found in almost anything when you want the political amunition – just look at the reasons the US used to invade the majority of the South American nations to ensure their leader was in power. Plus considering all the evidence the People of CMM will accept the justification.
As for the story line – like many before it and after it – it was not properly explored, it was just glossed over for the next story.
If a subject is brought up is should be expanded upon and brought to its natural conclusion.
Plus it would be delicious revenge for Hanse as he sticks the political knife into her and gives it a good twist.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/02/20 03:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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Espianage would be more likely a charge. Giving information to a entity that they are at war with would be the likely charge.
With this, the WOB issues would destroy Comstar and any chance of being coordinated in pushing back the clans. Other then the forgotten black boxes for this, Jumpships would be the ONLY way to talk to other worlds.
The clans would absolutely seize all stations they had in their area, once WOB started striking back at them, or worse. WOB join the clans to remove the leaders of the IS.
The leaders would not know this. They would find out in the future.
With the calls for the houses to immediately try and retake worlds, as well as not do a peace treaty with the clans, shows a lack of understanding the history of the IS in general.
Funny how the one thing that would and did actually change the borders beyond a could of worlds happens, and it is hated. Well, mixed feelings. More then a few love the clan age, The story wasn't so cared about, just playing with clan tech. SL tech just stinks.
It is SUPPOSED to be better then 3025 tech, but more then a few, wasn't. Kill the enemy before he can strike back is the key, So why would you install pulse weapons that were outranged by the standard one?
As pointed out, only the PPC and LL had extended range, so no ERML, which would have been much better then even the regular LL for the most part.
The streaks were nice, but it does lead to questions on why normal missiles had issues, yet the same size and numbers per ton streaks didn't. The claim all military units had some sort of standard ecm, as well as targeting systems yet could not do much with it is curious.
The fact that the same cockpit used by the clans is the same one used by the IS. No advancement in the most important part of combat. Detection and targeting.
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Requiem
04/03/20 12:29 AM
1.158.222.248
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Espionage? – sorry no they supplied highly sensitive information regarding military units – Treason.
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WoB
WoB – …….er…….wrong era?
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With the calls for the houses to immediately try and retake worlds, as well as not do a peace treaty with the clans, shows a lack of understanding the history of the IS in general.
How? …..I do not understand where this is going.
The story lacks any depth to it …. It is written with little to no thought as what is going on ….. and creates more pot holes than can be reasonably accepted …
The weapon technology just adds insult to injury.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/03/20 01:24 AM
66.74.60.165
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Look up the definition of treason. As a history buff, or so you suggest with all the garbage put on here about past statements, you will find the term does not apply to Comstar.
And had you actually paid attention to the game and it's developing plot line, WOB split off from the main Comstar, due to things being done they did not agree with. Such as the reform. Do you think they would sit back and allow the first circuit to allow the organization to become the lap dog of the IS?
The lack of perceived depth seems to stem from a lack of understanding what is going on. Not that it is all great or well thought out, but then the entire story would not happen had your thought of the SLDF not leaving was done.
And still you say it has little to no thought, yet want to keep using it for the basis for your alt. Where is the well thought out idea for this?
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Requiem
04/03/20 06:34 AM
1.158.222.248
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Treason – a crime of betrayal, in an attempt to bring down a person, state or government – what know the reeds of Runnymede? ….. Subtlety may deceive you; integrity never will.
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Do you think they would sit back and allow the first circuit to allow the organization to become the lap dog of the IS?
Reformation doe not equate to servitude.
They will still be a power but they will have to support the war against the Clans in the fields of Battle.
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the SLDF not leaving was done.
A happenstance that has was created to have no great meaning or understanding – and created a flood of impossibilities that should never have occurred – extremely pitiful plot development.
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Where is the well thought out idea for this?
Where if the efficacy for this …… poorly thought out idea …….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/03/20 12:46 PM
66.74.60.165
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the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.
Online definition. I notice you left out one's country. Those two words shuts down your argument.
And the second one that comes up.
Treason definition is - the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally injure the sovereign or the sovereign's family.
Pattern here? One's country or government the offender owe allegiance to. Neither applies to Comstar.
If it smells like BS, then it must be BS. And a lot of the quotes put up sounds like BS. Using fancy words and writing tidbits from dead people doesn't add to the statements made. It suggests smoke and mirrors, to deflect from the discussion.
Servitude means worse then reformation. It means you have given up on the entire idea of what the company means. Once you give in to demands like this, then what is next? Reformation comes as those the control or demand you do things will change it all to fit their ideas of what is supposed to happen. And with more then 5 nations saying only their ideas work, it destroys the company's ability to do anything. The fanatics would definitely kill the first council and take over. So IF they bow to the demands, it would only be for a few months, maybe even days, before a new first circuit comes about the rescinds the agreement. Worse, it could very well cause Comstar to just take over areas they are in. That means all those worlds you would leave undefended by sending everything towards the clans would become protectorates of the newly reformed Comstar. And I don't think the zealots would be concerned about taking out jumpships to slow the spread of information, as the HPG network wouldn't. They have the ability to make them, so they would have more control, as they would slowly become those that control interstellar transportation.
The clans would be the only real threat to them at this point.
The Jihad would have started earlier, though probably not nearly as planned out as the later one.
No great meaning or understanding? I can see where you missed understanding why it did or had to happen. It had far more then you seem to really comprehend, but yet refuse to actually learn why.
But again, twisting the sentence by not including all of it shows a lack of understanding things. Here is the full sentence.
Not that it is all great or well thought out, but then the entire story would not happen had your thought of the SLDF not leaving was done.
See the part where is said the entire story would not happen if you went along the SLDF not leaving.
Bashing canon is the only thing you have to talk about. Not the alt, but trying to get others to side with you yet the alt isn't better when it is based on the very BS you say canon is wrong on.
I agree. Poorly thought out idea... on using the fatally flawed canon as the basis for the alt. That is poorly thought out. Make your own universe and do all those calculations that canon has missed, including all those numbers and such, and then present it. Until you do, this is nothing but ripping on the developers.
This entire alt concept needs to end, until it stops the canon is wrong. It should be like others saying they went off in this direction and not saying the game most play, is wrong and only my vision is right.
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