Alt History / Thoughts re Clan Invasion of IS

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Requiem
05/06/20 06:47 PM
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Second Battle of Twycross

And people believe that the Clans could identify and find all of the hidden weapons and personnel from the time of the First Battle given that their warriors would not ever stoop to such a menial task – so that leaves who – the Tycross Police Force?

• Twycross March Militia - The unit consisted of several regiments, one of 'Mechs, and an unknown number of armour and infantry regiments.
• It had a full Regiment of Mechs, though after the first days of combat, when the unit was defending Camora city, only one Battalion of the unit was left.
• Two mech lances had been enhanced with ECM equipment and were used to gather critical information on the Falcon Guard tactics and also on clan equipment.

Also – population of Twycross – 1,237,735,000 by 3076

Thus the ability to find any surviving Militia would be sooooo easy for the Clans …….

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A military commander will not decide to keep fighting a war, if the governor says to stop.



Chain of Command – a governor is not part of the Chain of command – not even a world lord
…. the regular army answers to their House Lord – through the chain of command - and his / her Military Command Group.
…. Planetary Military – even though they are technically controlled by the world’s Highest Ranked Officer (via Government) they are also at the same time under the command of their House Lord at the same time – Filial Duty to ones Liege Lord.

Example Grey Death Legion – prior to swearing allegiance to the Archon they were Mercs – once he became lord of Glengarry the Grey Death Legion could be ordered by his House Lord (Katherine) to fight on her behalf – to which he was now legally obliged to do so under the LCAF Banner.

So again, an external order, if they are ordered to surrender by the local government they are within their right, under law, to ignore it – only a direct order via House Lord via their Lord’s CIC can give this order and even then you can request a confirmation of the order (taking even more time to fight on ….).

Also why would a house lord order the surrender of a viable military unit?

Internally – only the highest ranked officer has this authority and only under a limited number of circumstances – otherwise their XO can charge them with dereliction of duty / cowardess in the face of the enemy – arrest them and take command – and continue the battle …..

So again …. Only if they are completely off their rocker would they obey!

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Not sure why the concept of the game premise is so hard to comprehend,



Then an accurate statement is required – combined arms group Vs. Mech!

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Gundam Wing



Have a look …..

https://www.google.com/search?q=gundam+w...me&ie=UTF-8


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Star Wars



The ages before the emperor …..
Clone Wars ….
Rebels ….
Resistance …
The role playing game?
Miniature’s game?

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The main back ground story of the game is mech on mech.



Then write the story so that it is believable ….. military uits are about combined arms units working together in battle to achieve a common goal …. Mech supporting infantry and armor and being supported by artillery and fighter / bomber / VTOL – being transported by marine / navy units. The idea that Mechs only every work on their own would only occur with Mercenary units who do not have access to support units.

Reconnaissance units are comprised not only of mechs – they also have infantry with vehicles – Boomerang spotter planes – some sort of unmanned drones – Fighter support units – High altitude AWACS – satellite and warship (if available).

Remember there are some terrain that even a mech cannot go through – hence the need for other units who do have the capability.

Also Mechs are a limited resource they cannot be everywhere at once where as Infantry with vehicles are more versatile and are in high numbers – thus they can be sent more easily to every part of the battlefield if necessary to fulfill a role ….

Also if your duty is to go house to house to investigate the inside of buildings how are you going to do this in a mech? Do they now have a scanner that can do the job that was never previously discussed?

Limiting the scope of the game to just mechs limits the games scope and its overall believability.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/07/20 12:44 AM
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The way it was suggested, makes it sounded like Twycross had a full set of RCT troops with artillery support. Not some hundred or so militia troops with equipment on verge of being scrapped. And with the return of the FC, they would stay hidden until after the planet was liberated. There was no guarantee they would be freed.

The planetary governor has full rights of command over the troops that are planetary troops.
And the fact that you have to ask "why would a house lord order the surrender of a viable military unit?" says you have no idea on how to use troops properly. They are not stand and die. If it is, this would explain why it is impossible to comprehend anything but utter defeat or winning at all costs. Which the latter seems to exclude WMDs. You pull troops out of a losing battle when you can, and use them another day.
But then when you think all troops are stationed in one city on a world, and can defend the entire world quickly from that point, the idea of realism of tactics and strategy have to be questioned.
Even the most loyal of troops will tell their commander that the order is not something that can be done and refuse the order. This is not done on a whim, but it is done.
The second thought to the idea of do or die makes me think dictator concept is all that is there.
Oh. And that means Katherine was in violation of the order to stand down, as she was NOT the appointed ruler of the FC. She usurped it.

Gundam Wing is full of holes. It is poorly written on top of that, but for entertainment, it is ok. All games and movies have to have the audience ignore facts in order for it to be enjoyed.

All the things beyond the movie were retconned into existence. The main Star Wars movie was about the Skywalkers. George Lucas and the others did a great job in doing so, but they still have some logic farts in there.

The story is as believable when it isn't the primary reason for playing the game. Maybe you want something more akin to intrigue and assassins, not wars fought with large robots. So many assassin's Creed would be a better thing. BattleTech is about Battle mechs. Not world of tanks. I think this is a bit overboard, as they suggest the mech is the ultimate unit, yet only does so by nerfing everything else. But oh well. I play the game, and the group has their own little rules. The back ground story doesn't really matter, as there is NOTHING the players can do to change the full canon version of what goes on. So a successful assassination of Takashi in 3022 has no meaning on the rest of the world playing. In fact, if you try to use those characters in another game, then Takashi still lives in 3025.
This is not presenting ideas for GMs. This is a call to rewrite the entire game history because you don't like it.
Requiem
05/07/20 05:40 AM
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The way it is written Twycross March Militia is very close to a RCT in equipment – however they are as green as the grass is.

As for no guarantee they would be freed – this is a laughable concept – either they will do it themselves through partisan warfare (especially when you consider the size of most garrisons) or they will hold fast no long how it takes (Look at the CC people when they were liberated from the FS how quickly did it take for them to rise up as an example!)

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The planetary governor has full rights of command over the troops that are planetary troops.



Since when? …. Example please.

The military is answerable to the Chain of Command and only those in the Chain of Command!

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And the fact that you have to ask "why would a house lord order the surrender of a viable military unit?" says you have no idea on how to use troops properly.



Please elucidate me then – under what conditions would a House Lord order his / her troops to surrender? …. And why not an organized retreat?

I can see being surrounded with no hope of relief – but this is on the CO not the House Lord ….

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when you think all troops are stationed in one city on a world, and can defend the entire world quickly from that point



Drop- ships – transport vast amount of units quickly – especially if you use drop pods;
Super transport – ships (sea) and aircraft (air) and rail (land) – can also move forces quickly;

Paratroopers are good example of this.

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Even the most loyal of troops will tell their commander that the order is not something that can be done and refuse the order.



Insubordination to Mutiny – dishonorable discharge after ? years hard labor to firing squad.

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And that means Katherine was in violation of the order to stand down



Civilian not military – and the Lyran CIC sided with her so Victor is completely out of the picture …...

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The back ground story doesn't really matter, as there is NOTHING the players can do to change the full canon version of what goes on.



Sorry no …. My Alt history says otherwise - Every group should be allowed to modify their history as they see fit – otherwise the game will just disappear, and shortly, as how may actually enjoy anything Jihad and onwards - how many have only one era they fight in thus purchasing new books is reducing in number if and when it is ever printed?

I know I have decided to give up on the majority jihad and onwards – unless it contains new Mechs / Vehicles or technology.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/07/20 12:23 PM
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So the Twycross militia just happens to have near RCT units when the second battle started? So did these just pop out of the ground thru magic? Or did the clans hand them over so they had some thing more to shoot at? Maybe they found an experimental HPG set up that moves weapons from other worlds.

Chain of command means you listen to your boss. Then that boss listens to the boss above them. It does NOT mean the archon gives the lance a specific order to be followed. It goes down the chain of command, with the highest one on site having the duty to decide what needs to be done. There were more then a few times where someone higher in the chain of command didn't know the full details of what is going on.

Now your alt might have enough resources to have multi million dollar dropships sitting around on each world to take a few hours to get into orbit, get to a site and drop units to stop a raid or invasion, but that is not the case even in the richest worlds of the game. Some will have it attached to the response units on SOME worlds, but no where near all. But the few hours is too long. A simple smash raid would be done and over with before you got into orbit, with the raiders pulling out before you even attempt to drop. And with that, your dropships would be stupid to stay on the ground when inbound dropships were found. Don't need a nuke to carpet bomb the areas where they are parked.

As much as you want to believe otherwise, there are legal times when an officer can tell his boss that they are being ordered to perform tasks that would destroy their troops. Or are illegal in itself.
The dictator concept of do it or die, will have your units full of criminals that will destroy your lands without the need for an enemy. It will also mean you will not have forces for very long when dealing with the concept of this game.
As a side note, your HQ would be destroyed very quickly, once the enemy sees you send everything to respond to a small hit, and demand your soldiers die where they stand. No tactics, no reinforcements, as they are all sent to attack an enemy from an area that should have had guard units at to begin with. And with this, you would lost those sites as well, as the enemy has no resistance there.

In the scenario you are painting, anyone that defies their lawful ruler is to be executed in the firing line. That means siding with someone that ISN'T the lawful ruler, so Katherine's support is doing that very thing. And as Katherine knows the whole legalities of this, she is very much in default of following those laws as well. Your argument of Adam applies here. Victor did not stand down, resign, or anything of the sort, so he is still the legal ruler of the lands. ALL units were supposed to follow his orders, not Katherines.

Surrendering a viable force is done to prevent the full destruction of them, when the situation is beyond even winning, going into being destroyed. These are not some little dots on a screen, but in the game, living beings. There is risk in war, but ignoring the chance to save them in a no win situation, will have you without soldiers very quickly. Some situations will not allow a surrender, so a fight to the death is going to happen.
This almost sounds like what Kurita would suggest to their people...
Requiem
05/07/20 04:19 PM
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Still have not yet to explain - under what conditions would a House Lord order his / her troops to surrender? – since when does a planetary governor have command rights over regular forces?

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Twycross March Militia



Why is it so unbelievable to consider the remnants of Twycross March Militia were able to conceal their location during the clan invasion?

How many units went on to fight guerrilla conflict for years or just popped up years later after being in hiding.

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The Raid



Making generalized assumptions is not an absolute every time. Every world will have its own unique TO&E and this must be taken into consideration.

When a Jumpship arrives in-system their re-emergence should be detectable – then there are satellites – and then there are regional commands who have computers that can work out probable LZ sites – and then there could even be a Union Dropship full of Mechs ready to go in orbit or a fighter Dropships ready to go so the hours are now minutes …. And with this the sites are saved the enemy routed ……

Scenarios are not absolutes and must be taken on a case by case basis ….

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In the scenario you are painting, anyone that defies their lawful ruler is to be executed in the firing line.



Out of context - “Those convicted of Mutiny”.

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That means siding with someone that ISN'T the lawful ruler



By this argument the USA should still be a member of the English Commonwealth.

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The Clan Invasion Error



How many worlds within the Clan Invasion corridors were only defended by militia / merc

Ghost Bear
Second Wave – Susquehanna, Trondheim
Third Wave – Polcenigo
Fourth Wave – Pomme De Terre, Spittal, Goito
Fifth Wave – Kempten, Kaesong,Sheliak, Halesowen, Maule, Ardoz, Utrecht, Mannedorf, Toffen


Jade Falcon
Second Wave – Evciler, Golandrinas, Maxie’s Planet, Romulus, Seiduts, Twycross
Third Wave – Beta VII, Hot Springs, Malibu, Roadside, Waldorff (the entire third wave!)
Fourth Wave – Antares, Apolakkia, Baker 3, Blackjack, Denizli, Goat Path, Graus, Leskvik, Parakoila
Fifth Wave – Quarell

Nova Cat
Fifth Wave – Itabaiana

Smoke Jaguar
First Wave – Idlewind,Rockland, Bjarred, Almunge, Virentofta, Stapelfeld
Second Wave – Sawyer, Nykvarm, Coudoux, Chupadero
Third Wave – Kabah, Jeanette, Hanover, Savinsville, Albiero (the entire third wave)
Fourth Wave – Byesville
Fifth Wave – Labrea, Outer Volta, Yamarovka, Tarazed

Steel Viper
Fifth Wave – Montmarault, Benfled, Orkney

Wolf
First Wave – Alleghe, The Edge, Icar, Outpost, Skallevoll, Balsta, St. John, Svelvik
Second Wave – Cseztreg, Leoben, Lovinac, New Bergen,Rodigo
Third Wave – Bruben, Hermagor, Kirchbach, Liezen, Feltre, Harvest, Mozirje
Fourth Wave – Dawn, New Oslo, Unzmarkt, Basiliano, Ferleiten, Hohenems, Kufstein, Engadin, Svarstaad, Vulcan, Moritz, Skokie, Stanzach
Fifth Wave – Cusset, Laurent, Thannhausen, Volders, Vorarlberg, Weingarten, Gunzburg, Hyperion, Karston, Wheel, Domain, Rastaban, Altenmarkt, Biota, Diosd, Galuzzo, Nox, Lothan, Ramsau

Note the fifth wave is post year of “peace”

In retrospect …..

In my opinion the entire fifth wave is a sham – every House has enough time to bring in regular forces for every world fought over – for me this just shows how much of a sham the Clan invasion truly is. As soon as it becomes apparent they are being invaded by an external force regular elite / veteran forces should have been dispatched o intercept their spear-point en mass. Where are the multiple RCTs joining forces on a single world to stop their invasion?

And as for the mercenary units – I have never heard of them – they are all a complete unknowns!

Sorry to say, but as far as I am concerned this does in no way represent a true response as to how individual Houses Regular Units would be utilized. They have the Jumsphips – look at the 4th Succession War …. They have the Units …. Look at the 20 Year Update …..

The Clans were just given a quick and easy invasion corridor with no real elite / veteran forces (on the whole) to stop them.

What a waste of an invasion – this could have been made far more than was rushed through!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/08/20 02:46 AM
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Most guerilla units did not use mechs for the most part of their time behind clan lines. They seemed to be infantry/commando style resistances.

I would assume you haven't actually read how the FWL actually operates. Each region is supposed to be part of the FWL, yet each one can refuse to give the rulers (mariks) units to use for any purpose. And planets as well as individual unit commanders have refused orders as well. Court martials have happened, but a firing line it rare.
As to why they would, there are many. Some so simple that it is amazing it needs to be asked. The whole planet is impossible to hold, due to things like no reinforcements are possible, simple retreat out of the combat zone, so your troopers don't have to die needlessly comes to mind. Even Kurita forces have done so without being punished. A few have refused orders due to lack of pay, or resources, such as repair parts for their mechs. No shore leave in too long. There are many more, but with all the research done, I don't know how this was missed.

Funny thing about the emergence signature. It was not in the original game, nor in a few rule upgrades. And the idea that you can do so, means all non pirate point jump raids and invasions should never have taken a world by surprise. So this one thing negates a lot of surprise drops.

There is nothing said of those convicted of mutiny. It says if you disobey orders, you are to be punished. The firing line is suggested a few times. There is nothing said of special circumstances anywhere except the rebuttal to this statement.

The U.S won that war. This is one of those times the U.K. didn't try to retake the lands. So the enemy surrendered, even though their forces could continue the fight. Not well, but they were still in it. The local commander surrendered and was allowed to take his forces and leave. Hmmm. Against the crowns wishes, but the time lag was horrible..

There were several veteran/elite units that fought the clans in their push. On the whole, you are never going to have wall to wall units that are veteran or elite. The only time I can say this may have happened was the 4th war. And even then, they were not all highly skilled units used.


Edited by ghostrider (05/08/20 02:55 AM)
Requiem
05/08/20 08:34 AM
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Supposition as to guerilla units not utilizing ‘Mechs – depends on terrain.

Quote:
I would assume you haven't actually read how the FWL actually operates. Each region is supposed to be part of the FWL, yet each one can refuse to give the rulers (mariks) units to use for any purpose.



That is until 3046 – Military Reorganization Act – The Act included ….”the elimination of the distinction between Federal and Provincial troops. All soldiers in any League military force were made part of the Free Worlds League Military and placed under the direct control of Parliament and the Captain-General.”

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Even Kurita forces have done so without being punished



Can you please provide an example ….. as normally, first – Seppuku – or another form of appeasing the dragon before the unit is pardoned .

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A few have refused orders due to lack of pay, or resources, such as repair parts for their mechs.



And they became mercenary.

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disobey orders



Refer the Code of Military Conduct – Mompeyssin’s “Soldiers’ codes of conduct if different countries around the world. A comparative outlook” may assist - https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/25583339.pdf

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The U.S won that war



As above …..

- dictator concept - Oh. And that means Katherine was in violation of the order to stand down, as she was NOT the appointed ruler of the FC. She usurped it.
- Victor did not stand down, resign, or anything of the sort, so he is still the legal ruler of the lands. ALL units were supposed to follow his orders, not Katherine’s.

Me - By this argument the USA should still be a member of the English Commonwealth.

England did not stand down ….so they are still the legitimate government … all units were supposed to follow their orders … not the rebels!

“And yet Katherine won that war. This is one of those times the FS didn’t try to retake the lands. So the enemy surrendered, even though their forces could continue the fight.”.

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The Clan Invasion error



Refer again to the number of worlds that were just handed over the Clans without a fight – this is at least over half (an maybe even more than that …..then consider all those post Twycross (second battle) September 3050 and Wolcott October 3050 – both IS victories!
Then the year ‘of peace’
Look how many world were given away then – what a joke!

Ghost Bear
FRR – 1st 2nd Hussars
FRR – 1st Freemen
FRR – 17th 20th 22nd 31st Rasalhagian Free FRR -7
DC – 2nd 4th 6th 7th 8th 9th Alshain Regulars
DC – 27th 41st Dieron Regulars
DC – 1st 12th Sun Zhang Academy
DC – 2nd Sword of Light
DC – 21st Benjamin Regulars
DC – 4th Arkab Legion DC - 12

Jade Falcon
FC – 2nd New Ivaarsen Chasseurs
FC – 17th Skye Rangers RCT
FC – 8th 25th Arcturan Guards RCT
FC – 12th Donegal guards
FC – 10th Lyran Guards FC - 6

Nova Cats
DC – 18th Dieron Regulars
DC – 2nd Amphigean Light Assault Group
DC – 21st 34th Galedon Regulars
DC – 9th Dieron Regulars
DC – 3rd 11th Pesht Regulars
DC – 2nd Ghost
DC – 1st Shin Legion
DC – 11th Alshain Regulars DC - 9

Smoke Jaguar
DC – 1st 3rd 9th 10th Alshain Regulars
DC – 4th 9th Pesht Regulars
DC – 14th Legion of Vega
DC – 2nd 3rd Benjamin Regulars
DC – 5th Galedon Regulars
DC – 1st 2nd Genyosha
DC – 6th Ghost
DC – 2nd Arkab
DC – 2nd Amphigean Light Assault Group
DC – 1st 3rd Proserpina Hussars DC - 17

Steel Viper
FC – 10th 19th Lyran Guards RCT
FC – 9th FedCom RCT
FC – 17th Donegal Guards RCT FC - 4

Wolf
FRR – 1st 2nd 3rd 4th Drakons
FRR – 1st 2nd 3rd Freeman FRR - 7
FC – 10th Donegal Guards RCT
FC – 33rd 41st Avalon Hussars RCT
FC – 1st Lyran Regulars
FC – 24th 25th 26th Arcturan Guards RCT
FC – 1st 26th Lyran Guards RCT
FC – 5th Davion Guards RCT FC – 10


20 Year Update Clan Invasion Total % of units used during Invasion
FRR – 16 FRR – 13 FRR – 81%
DC - 99 DC – 28 DC – 28%
FC - 268 FC – 20 FC – 7.5%

The invasion is a complete sham!

Even after the year of peace it looks as though the FC still did not move any units against the Clans

For me the Canon Clan invasion holds no validity!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/08/20 12:12 PM
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Read the Galtor campaign. There were several units under the command of one of the military provinces that were ordered to retreat from the world as his rival, Samsonov, was going to destroy his forces. The coordinator had him questions but no seppuku nor were the troops punished. It wasn't that the situation was hopeless, but the actions made the choice to leave.

Those that refused to work without being paid becoming mercenaries. Some did. Some didn't. But the fact remains they LEGALLY said no to their bosses.

Might need to look at the outcome of the U.S. revolutionary war. England did stand down and seeded control of the U.S to the colonial government. It was a while after the Brittish forces surrendered and left, but it was done.

The list you have for the clans resistance is incomplete and in the list you provided, there are veteran and elite units in there. Those were the units stationed on the worlds lost. It does not add in what units were fighting there on top of that, and retreated from those worlds.

But this might help.
You want a rewrite, then rewrite it. Don't do a reboot, as you are trying to do, rewrite it entirely. Remove canon completely and go from there. All of these complaints saying this and that is wrong, yet still not showing numbers that show the 'only viable solution' is that. This is not showing an alt, but just complaining the game isn't going the way you want.
There are more then a few things I agree with, as the clans should not have been able to take so much with so little, and some of that comes down to not actually figuring in vehicles as well as the amount of time it took was shorter then I would believe. Some complaints are from not understanding the full reality of things, like your soldiers stand and fight, but are not little blips to stand and die on an angry whim. Live to fight another day is very standard, though not retreating at the first sounds of gunshots.
Requiem
05/08/20 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Galtor campaign



Which units?

Grieg Samsonov – Warlord of the Galedon Military District
“During Galtor III campaign, it was discovered that Samsonov was blackmailing mercenary companies within his district, which caused significant problems during fighting on planet. His actions, caused fellow Warlord Yoriyoshi's troops go through hardships as their mercenary support loaded up with supplies prior to they did.”

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But the fact remains they LEGALLY said no to their bosses.



No …. They went into another realm and became mercenaries …. exiled for life is not legal – thy now have a bounty on their heads.

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Might need to look at the outcome of the U.S. revolutionary war.



Consider the wider war – Anglo-French War 1778-1783 – GB diverted resources from the war in Nth America to those in Europe, India and the West Indies.

What would have happened if they hadn’t diverted these forces?

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The list you have for the clans resistance is incomplete



Then please go through the list within Sara – Invasion Corridor - <Clan> and point out the errors.

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then rewrite it.



Postings that I have included so far …..

Thomas Marik – killed off (died in the explosion) – civil war – new Captain General Isis Marik (betrothed to Victor)

3039-40 – CC obliterated – now a part of the FC

Writings on taking the 50 years – 3000 – 3050 to establish Clan Colonies into the Deep Periphery – using this time o establish a true communication relay between the IS and Clan Space – using this time to create a true Leviathan Fleet for the Colonisation of the Deep Periphery
Introduce a system of Clan re-supply / sibko reinforcement number system so that they now must adhere to the availability of Logistics in the war …. If Logistics / sibko numbers run out they must combine units …
Introducing IS Navies to the void prior to 3050 + my PT craft Dropships armed with naval guns
Introducing new Infantry rules and weapons ….
My Fenrir Forces …. With Black Box …. Logistics fleets will now disappear … naval battles
Clan PGC’s going rogue….
Partisan fighting ….. with Black Box
The Great Naval Battle(s) at Camelot Command – more naval battles within the war – IS now have Aerospace fighter Carriers as the centre of their fleets Vs. Clans Battleships – create an IS ship killer missile (get away from Nukes)
Post Turtle Bay – DC Navy sent in and they sink the Jags ship in retaliation ….
Creating a true Battle of Rasalhague
When the Wolves use their tactic of putting supplies before their invasion forces – many will go missing …
Re-Creating the Star League and the SLDF in 3051 – censure / trial of Comstar for their perfidy with the Clans – ComGuard to be assigned to new SLDF (WoB formed as a dedicated anti Clan Force) – Majority of DCMS and FCMS forces will move from their garrison posts to that of the invasion corridor – FWL will join the war against the Clans
Introducing Psy-Ops teams onto clan held worlds – assisting freeborn to run away from the clans by establishing an underground to assist them
Sending Archeology Units into the Former Terran Hegemony worlds – looking for Artifacts than may help in the war or information that can be used to show the Clans how far they have fallen from the former SLDF to what they are now ….
Creating second / third gen IS Omni tech (over time)
Convert the year of peace to the year of preparation and turn the worlds in front of the Clans to something similar to Italy during WW2 – Wolf Dragoons are now part of the New SLDF
Anti-Clan doctrinal fighting book established by both DC and FS – clans must now fight attrition warfare rather than blitzkrieg they are fond of fighting
Outcome - Pushed out of the IS after many years of fighting – however Nova Cats and Ghost Bears Swap sides and establish new realms for them within the Deep Periphery
War between Jade Falcon / Wolf within the deep periphery - Clan Jade wolf formed – Khan Phelan
New IS colonies within the Deep Periphery formed
During this time frame Victor will run away with Omika and they will form their own new realm – Katherine takes over FC – Isis (Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned)
Problems with Vicor / Omika’s new realm and that of FC and DC during the great Deep Periphery land Grab era (wild west settler Vs Big Coy both looking for new land / resources etc – SLDF sent in to act as the Police in this area of Chaos – might makes right …..
Clans on the Home Worlds begin the second invasion of the IS (30 -40 years after the end of the first Invasion with a new army and navy / new tech etc that will not be hobbled by the old sibko system) - new war erupts within throughout the deep periphery / Inner Sphere as the second wave of Clan forces begin an entirely new Invasion not limited in determining the il-Clan – aim conquest …..

And in the middle of this we have the Sun Tzu rebellion – Katherine usurping Victor – Isis Marik re-establishing an explorer corp and expanding her realm throughout the Deep Periphery behind the FWL and within the Deep Periphery near Victor / Omika’s new realm so that she can attack them (with Katherine’s support)
Isis engages in a war against Andurian / Magistracy of Canopus – re-unification war – Independent region – Fronc Reaches – Taurian Concordat


And yet still not good enough as the framework for a re-write?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/08/20 09:36 PM
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The 17th and 6th Benjamin Regulars loaded onto their dropships and headed towards the Galtor jump point. Neither one of them became a merc unit afterwards. So not sure where you are getting your information from, or maybe not wanting to see what was written there, but page 34 for the retreat without orders, and page 36 says about Yoriyoshi living.
The bounties on their heads is not what happened, and not sure why you are stating they did. More then a few units left the houses they were signed up for to become mercs and still serve the house that shorted them. So the iron fist isn't correct in more then a few situations.

And how did the war of the U.S end? If the U.K didn't stand down or agree to let the states go, they would have continued the war after they dealt with other issues. The blockade by the French ended the idea of keeping the U.S under Brittish rule.

That is not a rewrite, but a reboot. You still used the flawed logic of the game and just adding in more things that would only compound the flawed issues. You wanted the SLDF to fight to the death, while the whole issue of populations needing far more troops then shown to pacify them, means the SL would never have formed. The houses would not have been able to take control either. All the suggestions listed to nothing to rewrite the story, just change it to fit your vision. Which has flaws of it's own, but the base flaws of the original story still prevents the story from being logical.
ghostrider
05/08/20 10:04 PM
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Gray Death Legion
Grave Walkers
12th Star Guards
1st Regiment
2nd Grave Walkers
5th Davion Guards RCT
3rd Regiment 12th Star Guards
3rd Icar Armored Brigade
2nd Battalion 2nd Kell Hounds
1st Proserpina Hussars
3rd Proserpina Hussars

Some are veteran and elite units. Some of the more unknown units were left out.
And there were infantry and vehicle battles that were part of the invasion, though some names seem repeated in a few different locations. Not sure if this is a mistake on the writers, forgetting they were on other worlds, or if the survivors were part of the new battles and didn't say so, like a few other units.
Requiem
05/09/20 03:17 AM
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To which book are you elucidating ….. Page 34 and Page 36

Quote:
The blockade by the French ended the idea of keeping the U.S under British rule.



Actually it was the Treaty of Paris …. Signed September 3, 1783… Article 1. Of which acknowledged states existence …. And forced through by the French, Spanish and Dutch …

Rewrite – Verb – write (something) again so as to alter or improve it.
Reboot – Verb – a process or sequence that gives fresh impetus to restart or revive.
Sounds like a rewrite to me.

If you have disagreement with anything in the template – please expand on it.

Gray Death Legion - mercenary
Grave Walkers - mercenary
12th Star Guards - mercenary
1st Regiment - mercenary
2nd Grave Walkers – mercenary
5th Davion Guards RCT – included under Wolf
3rd Regiment 12th Star Guards mercenary
3rd Icar Armored Brigade – reserve unit
2nd Battalion 2nd Kell Hounds - mercenary
1st Proserpina Hussars – included under Smoke Jaguar
3rd Proserpina Hussars – included under Smoke Jaguar

As the list was in regard to regular forces only – the numbers stand.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/10/20 12:35 PM
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The 17th and 6th Benjamin Regulars loaded onto their dropships and headed towards the Galtor jump point. Neither one of them became a merc unit afterwards. So not sure where you are getting your information from, or maybe not wanting to see what was written there, but page 34 for the retreat without orders, and page 36 says about Yoriyoshi living.
The Galtor jump point. I would guess that would mean the Galtor Campaign book. Guess skimming messages means you skip information a lot.

It was said that the list provided was incomplete. You said put down what was missing. I did, then it was in regards to regular forces only. This was answering the false statement of no veteran or elite units faced the clans except Twycross and Wolcott. Technically, the Kell Hounds faced them before they got into the IS. So that statement is wrong. And it would be nice to have something like regular military forces only before saying show the units not on a list.

Looking back, there are a few questions on what happens when Katherine wins the FC. As it would come down to 3 states voting, how does the new SL survive when Katherine becomes the leader of it? She would not allow control to be removed from her hands in the 5 year limit of the first lord position. There is no way she would allow the other two to continue to pass the role between each other. As the CC doesn't exist in your alt, this means it can not have representation, so 2 to 1 vote comes about. Thus, she would start the biggest war of the IS. She would absolutely try to destroy the other two in order to get and keep the first lord position.
This fact would destroy the 'peace' and the plans for anything beyond the initial formation period of the SL.
Requiem
05/10/20 05:07 PM
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Quote:
retreat without orders



Two books – The Galtor Campaign and Historical Turning Points: Galtor

Syovo Yorioshi …. Withdraw from Galtor III in the middle of the operation – removed from his post and placed in a staff position in the Combine’s interior …. in disgrace.

Quote:
in regards to regular forces only



Reading the list – why did I only include regular forces? Showing how regular forces were used in the invasion, and what does that show?

Let us look at the key military IS players …..

Hanse Davion, whom was described by his Kurita enemy as “a leader whom would go straight for your neck “ …..and….who was known by his nickname “the Fox”, for his shrewd and cunning military and political strategies?

Takashi Kurita – ruthlessly cunning ….

Theodore Kurita – high military acumen …

This history completely violates these characters personality / military acumen and many more …. and then look at the number of units involved and how they were used ……

What does this show? …… the invasion is without doubt a sham, I will never accept this! as far as I am concerned the Canon history is viable till 3039, from there on the canon history ENDS + ComStar’s Thomas Marik body double ends. From then on I will create my own history.

I may read what is provided but I will not accept it – the underlying story as given lacks credibility (in my opinion) there are just too many issues that make no sense whatsoever as to individuals characters and their events.

Quote:
what happens when Katherine wins the FC. As it would come down to 3 states voting, how does the new SL survive when Katherine becomes the leader of it?



First when the Star League is reformed it includes the following …
FedCom, DC, FWL, FRR, ComStar, St. Ives, MoC / Duchy of Andurien Alliance

As written previously - Each ruler has a set time period as ruler then in moves on to the next in a given sequence (rules when established are very complex) - Second the position is not as written as that was written with no forethought – The position is mainly ceremonial it does not control the SLDF – it does not allow the ruler to send troops into another members realm – they are just the chairman of the board – similar to the UN Security Council (minus the veto) or the EU Council and NATO– everyone gets a vote.

So even when she gets the position of First Lord – the position has no real power other than the administrative requirements of keeping the SL and the SLDF going, convening any SL meetings, plus any ceremonial duties.

The First Lord Position as per history no longer exists as its time has come and gone.

Then in the future the Nova Cats and Ghost Bears will be added in to the group ….

Plus the idea that Katherine as written is one and only Katherine in not correct …. The Katherine as written shows a lack of understanding as to a true Machiavellian “Prince” – she only needs to get rid of Victor and the Throne is hers, she does not have to kill anyone, and even then Victor’s choice of partner will ensure he will never be allowed the Throne – Omika Kurita? Really what was he thinking? … he is a Price of the Realm his wishes do not exist - his life is to serve and that means Isis Marik.

If he wants Omika then he has no choice but to abdicate from the Throne / line of succession – refer Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson.

Plus all things considered – Victor as ruler of the FedCom is a mistake - his inability to give up being commander of the 10th and rule shows his inability to become a true leader of a Great House.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/10/20 08:52 PM
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The Galtor campaign is an oddity, as It shows that both the DC and FS would send a dozen regiments to a single world to fight it out, yet the response to the clans didn't seem to see that much for the entire conflict. Something that amazes me that wasn't seen in the discussion.
And I do agree that the response and what units were actually involved in the fight is off for the clan invasion. More then a few infantry and armor battles were fought, yet it always seems that a certain few units were leading the assaults, yet the did not have the time to actually go from a few battles to a new world. Or so it seems. The delay in jumps coming into effect. Ion-Lithium batteries can only do so much. The time to travel from jump point to world and back again being something that gets in the way here.

The list of who is involved in the new SL wouldn't contain a few, unless there is a real change in how things were done before the formation of it. The FRR would be non existent at this time, and the MoC is questionable.
Now with the not allowing a single clansman to live inside occupied territory would say the Bears/Wolves would not be allowed, just as the Falcons and Jaguar would not be allowed. The Nova Cats might be an issue as well, like the suggestion of the Wolves-in-exile were noted.
Also missing from this list is the Outworlds Alliance. The TC might be noted as well, but they are the least likely of the periphery realms to be involved in anything like this. The OA would probably see a benefit from it, as it would mean a more secured area on their borders.

And a note about giving up command of a unit. Hanse never retired from being the leader of the Davion Heavy Guards. He did have someone else take them out and continue to get experience and fame, but he was still the over all leader of that unit, beyond being head of the FS.
Requiem
05/11/20 06:18 AM
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The Clan Invasion can’t be considered the most inventive.

As for the Star League – size of the realm is irrelevant as long as they have forces still fighting they are a member nation.
So when the Duchy of Andurien succeeded from the FWL and formed an alliance with MoC – they were even a part in the Capellan Fall War – the destruction of the CC – as far as I am concerned they still exist circa 3050’s, and the only reason they want in is access to Clan Tech (otherwise it will put them in a disadvantage with regards to the FWL).

As for the Nova Cats and Bears – they have already have colony worlds within the deep periphery formed during the 3000 to 3050 period to prepare for the first invasion of the IS – it would make more sense to form their new state as these worlds as the nucleus. As well as any other Clans forward support worlds they can conquer (as they have all the necessary logistics facilities to continue the war – including naval support facilities).

Why would the remaining periphery realms want to be a part of the SL? – I doubt their opinion of the SL would change now.

Hanse Davion – when was the last time he actually commanded a unit in battle?
This is constitutional role vested in the monarch – i.e. it is on paper only.

The Clan invasion needs battles worthy of Hanse, Takashi and Theodore – Battles that can excite all the players.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/11/20 01:48 PM
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The periphery states may well want in, even though they still hate the SL and the IS, for some of the same reasons the MoC is presented to have. Access to Clan Tech. It would also give them some help in keeping the other houses out of their territory, which would help the TC greatly. Knowing that the FS/FC would be hit or even SL forces placed on border worlds to prevent the Davions from attacking would benefit them.
The OA and others, could very well benefit from gaining help making inroads into rebuilding their manufacturing base. Not just military, but commercial as well. Might even be able to drop the back waters reputation most periphery states have.

The bears comes up as the statement that all clans have to leave occupied territory comes up. The demands for the FC to be cleared speaks against this. It also leads to the question of the Wolves in exile. Why one and not the other? The Nova Cats might also considered part of the DC at this point.

As the game is not good for telling when the rulers of a realm head out in a mech, it is very possible that Hanse's last foray was during the 4th war in the defense of New Avalon. Then again, he could well have been in the middle of a fight when the clans first penetrated the official IS border.

The players can be excited in the battles, but until canon is moved away from, anything they do, will be temporary at best. How excited would they be if they were able to take Twycross from the clans? How about Rassalhauge? Maybe kill Merthe Pryde? Be part of a unit that removes or take a major depot from the clans, including replacement units being readied to be shipped to their units? They can do some of this, and be permanent, such as taking supplies. Temporary things could include taking worlds, only to have the clans counter invade them and other units lose it again. It is just dependent on how you think the players would be excited.
Requiem
05/11/20 05:46 PM
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TC - how will they get over their zoophobia towards the FS to even consider joining?

OA – how will they ever afford the refit packages for their military and given the dysfunctional nature of their government why would they send their military into a real meat grinder of a war?

Plus considering the historical (ingrained) hate periphery people have towards the IS how could their people allow their politicians consider this action?

How many people would see the assistance of IS Houses to either TC or OA as the first step in losing their freedom – the IS has come again to conquer them as they have done again and again throughout their history?

If all they wanted was Tech why not just buy it on the black market or just take it via the normal SOP - the illegal acquisition of goods.

Quote:
The bears comes up as the statement that all clans have to leave occupied territory comes up. The demands for the FC to be cleared speaks against this.



First it would have been written into the charter of the new Star Leagues mission statement – the freedom of all the IS worlds from all of the Clans.

Second, The Bears – FRR will decide if they can remain on their worlds – so if the FRR / Bears can put up with two systems per world a FRR area and a Clan area why not? But if the Clan people ask for asylum from the Clan way of life the Bears will just have to accept it – so how many of the clans civilians will ask to leave? My bet the majority of free born would want out …. So best to keep their civilians isolated until the warriors can start reforms that will placate their civilians. Less they will leave en mass and the Star League will help them get out.

Third The Cats – they are in the same boat as the Bears but they will have to deal with the DC – and the DC would rather have indentured servants than equals.

As for Clan Wolf in exile – in my realm they do not exist – there was never a period of time where the Falcons / Wolves were at peace with the IS to enable them to fight one another except when they were kicked out of the IS and by then the size of both of their remaining forces next to nil. Marthe Pryde thus initiated a war of absorption and won (otherwise if she returned to Clan Space her clan would have been either absorbed or destroyed by one of the Home Clans for losing the first invasion) – hence the Jade Wolves now exist ….

As for Phelan – either Sa-khan or Bandit caste or captured by Kell Hounds – I am still mulling over this ….

As for Vlad …. Either Sa-khan or Bandit caste or Killed in battle – also mulling over this ….

Quote:
Then again, he could well have been in the middle of a fight when the clans first penetrated the official IS border.



Don’t think so when he should be on the new capitol world of the FC Anschluss (former world of new Earth within the Terran corridor)

Quote:
excited in battles with the Clans



This is the next big area I need to create.

Invasion – stat with many clan victories – however as time progresses the number of IS forces they have to fight per world increases – the number of damage inflicted upon them also increases.

Their rear is a mess – constant partisan activity is draining forces from their front line forces as IS commando forces penetrate these worlds and help killing off / capturing their small garrisons.

Turtle Bay and the DC reprisal naval battle – destruction of the Smoke Jaguar Vessel.

IS forces – Hanse, Takashi and Theodore are of a similar mind – transfer forces to a single world to form small armies then send them into the Clan OZ forcing the entire Clan to assign massive resources to fight a massive battle involving a single galaxy or more

Fenris forces sent into the deep periphery begin taking Clan Logistic fleets – find Clan forward supply worlds – take them also – cut their line of communication with the Clan Home worlds by taking their HPG space stations etc ….

Star League Reformed

The counter attack begins- start with WW2 Italy –on many worlds – Kesselring’s Lines. Galaxy Vs 5 to 6 RCTs per world

From there move to WW2 – Pacific type campaign Island jumping with massive fleets and forces to take back worlds – by now the massive damage each clan has taken they are beginning to implode – not enough reinforcements to cover those that have died / captured in battle.

Then within all this have key battles

Wolfs Dragoons (inc Natasha) Vs. Clan Wolf – she is now too old to return to the Clans thus she remains with Wolf Dragoons.

Rasalhague – Kell Hounds + FC + DC + FRR Vs Phelan + Wolf + Bear (similar to Luthien)

Camelot Command – massive naval battle + battle within the massive station (20 to 30x the size within canon) then use as a forward supply base to invade the Clans rear.

More Naval Battles

Luthien – as per normal

Twycross – fighting within the storm – and below ground in the tunnels

Expand the Battle OZ to include other worlds outside the Canon Clan OZ – key Battlemench, warship production facilities by Clan Long range military attack groups.

Then on different worlds with different environmental conditions etc.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/12/20 03:14 AM
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There is something that may be missing in the need for numbers.
Getting rid of the bs of the IS not making clan tech, it may not be needed to have 6 RCTs to take out a galaxy. With equal tech, that should make it more even, though having superior numbers is always good.
And this should also apply to warhips if that route is taken. The clans do have better armor then the original SL had.

The OA was not the fought over realm that you think. They were able to stay out of invasions that would take their worlds by doing the balance act between the FS and DC.
The TC would not join because of the FS, but they might decide to do something that would prevent the FS from being able to invade their borders. It may not be full membership In the SL, but part of a pack with someone that is, such as the MoC. It would give them some backing, but it isn't much more then political pressure.
Given you want Katherine on the FC throne, this would have some weird things play out.

So no scenario that the Kells are able to lure some of the wolves from the clans to live in the Arc Royal Defense Cordon?
Though I guess that would make the Kells a powerful thorn in her side.
Another thought would be the Wolves leading the home clans in an effort to remove the invading clans from their home worlds, since they were basically forced to participate in the invasion. This was well known in the homeworlds.
Requiem
05/12/20 07:10 AM
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How long does it take to reverse engineer? Best guess …

Lead time can vary from several weeks for very simple parts; months for more complex engineering – as the process is usually faster than the standard development time. However when you factor in material developments this may take time; Then on top of that, producing a mass production manufacturing line – this will take some time. Plus conversion time if you are closing an existing line and rebuilding a new line this may also take some time.

For small simple weapons 6 months to up to a year to start mass production - for more complex weapon system (elemental) 18 months – for the entire ‘Mech / 24 to 30 months.

Then there is the number produced and delivery time and delivery schedule to be worked out.

If you want to take the knowledge you have gained and create something new - an even longer time frame may be necessary from R&D to complete production.

Quote:
The OA was not the fought over realm that you think. They were able to stay out of invasions that would take their worlds by doing the balance act between the FS and DC.



If they were able to stay out of the DC / FS fracas this can also be taken as / considered to be a good reason to stay out of the Clan invasion.

Quote:
Given you want Katherine on the FC throne, this would have some weird things play out.



How so? My Katherine is not the Canon’s Katherine – Yes she may have thought about getting rid of Victor …. permanently …. But once she found out about Omika she just destroyed his credibility with the people and his Dukes (video images on reality shows will have that effect) – thus Abdication was his only real option, though he was allowed to stay in the Military. As for the DC their view of this relationship is easy to understand ….. send in the ninja ….????

Quote:
So no scenario that the Kells are able to lure some of the wolves from the clans to live in the Arc Royal Defense Cordon?



Bondsman and those who escaped from the tyrany of clan life - civilians and PGCs - only.

Quote:
Though I guess that would make the Kells a powerful thorn in her side.



Why? She never killed her mother and by extension Salome Ward-Kell is still alive ……. Victors’ extra-curricular activities with Omika is what got him in trouble with his family, realm and with his betrothed (Isis). The Kells have always been loyal to the Lyran state and by extension the Steiner family …. thus, they are loyal to Katherine.

And Katherine is her mother’s daughter and she knows how to get the best out of people ….

Personally, I believe Katherine would draft Morgan Kell and give him one of the small armies to command to strike at the JF with ….. Kell Hounds pus four regular Lyran RCTs ….. fun and games ….

Quote:
The wolves



They participated …. They lost …. And they paid for it - thus - absorption, destruction or abjuration …?

Considering their military has been devastated - absorption – Jade Wolf.

Otherwise one or more of the Home Clans would have ended both the Falcon and / or the Wolf – they are weak and the weak are prey for the strong ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (05/12/20 07:16 AM)
ghostrider
05/12/20 12:27 PM
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The building of clan tech may take a few years, but by 3060, there should be some being made. So that makes it more likely that the superior numbers making the fight that much shorter.
And with the raids on the Clan supply lines, there would be more clantech available to the IS forces, meaning a faster turn around in use.
For the IS, just a small few things would really tilt the balance. Clan double sinks would allow less crits to be used, so more weapons and equipment can fit on other units. Clan missile launchers would go very far with IS forces, which may well be why they didn't want the IS learning that. Imagine the SRM/LRM carriers using half weight launchers. You would definitely run into the max weapons concept very quickly with the standard SRM carrier.

The whole garbage of SL tech used in upgrades and new mechs was pathetic in the mechs before the invasion. Most looked like they were slapped with one or two new systems, as an afterthought. I understand the economy for canon, but that was more of a slap in the face.

The wolves would not be in such dire shape if the war with the Falcons did not happen. Granted, it may have happened if the IS was able to push them out, though not sure if Ulric would stay once the IS shown they were not the push overs the crusaders wanted them to be.
As the alt seems to suggest, there would not be any peace time for that fight to happen.

For Katherine, I was talking about what she would do if the TC did try to join or was part of a pack that had members in the SL. She kept pushing her Lyran half, so would the TC lessen the anger towards the FS portion? Would she demand they be part of the SL? Would she be able to persuade them to at least try to calm down some?
Even assassinating their leader and blame something like the CC underground for it?
Would she 'listen' to advisors and send the SL to annex parts of the TC in order to 'promote' peace on that border?
Requiem
05/12/20 06:50 PM
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Weapons Tech Prior to Clan Invasion – yes I agree all IS Elite Regular units + Elite Merc Units should have a greater access to SL weapons tech and should be upgraded accordingly. As for the remainder their percentage upgrade should be at the whim of each GM but I would put in a caveat that by late 3052 all IS regular units fighting on the Clan front must be 100% upgraded with SL tech.

Quote:
The building of clan tech may take a few years, but by 3060, there should be some being made.



Agree, at the minimum – all weapon systems + electronics + many IS variants of elemental armor + a couple of clan omni knock offs + a couple of IS new- omni mechs / vehicles / aerospace fighters.

Between 3055 and 3057 - Assume 25% of all IS regular military updated with IS clan weapons refit packages;
Between 3057 and 3060 - Assume 60% of all IS regular military updated with IS clan weapons refit packages
Between 3060 and 3064 - Assume 100% of all IS regular military updated with IS clan weapons refit packages

* Note this includes all Mech, Aerospace, conventional vehicles, VTOLs, Fighters and Infantry etc.

Also I am setting a tentative first invasion war of 6 to 7 years as many of the battles will get bogged down as the Clans will find themselves in battles of attrition upon many worlds as they WILL have to shift from how they currently fight to how the IS fights – plus they will have to acquire IS vehicles to assist with battlefield logistics / medical requirements etc.

Also many of the clans will find themselves depleted of all (near all) Elementals during the war with the introduction of an IS anti elemental rifle.

As and when clan logistics fleets are captured – each GM should have the right to assign them to their unit(s) of choice – i.e. those on the spear tip first. There needs to be some form of whimsy / a degree of improbability as to when units receive captured Clan logistic fleet tech to upgrade their units weapons. Plus each GM should have any say as to the redesigning of any Mech / Vehicle etc. when reconstruction takes place. But if it is within the current rules why not!

Quote:
The wolves would not be in such dire shape if the war with the Falcons did not happen.



By the end of the first invasion they should be – sibko resupply numbers are running low – force depletion reports are running hign – many units are being absorbed into others to keep Clusters / Galaxies numbers at optimal numbers.

Quote:
not sure if Ulric would stay once the IS shown they were not the push overs the crusaders wanted them to be.



If Ulric tries to cut and run because the IS are stronger than they first thought – assume challenge to his position as ruler – or even home clans threatening to absorb such a weak Clan Unit …. Politically he would find himself between the rock and the hard place as the Crusaders would view any move as cowardice – and they would take action as per clan norms.

Quote:
For Katherine, I was talking about what she would do if the TC did try to join or was part of a pack that had members in the SL.



Remember in this Alt. the FC does not split back into FS and LC – they remain as one FC

Thus, if the TC wanted to join she would accept them. They would then have to obey the rules as per where they are assigned.

Both the FC and the DC each have their commander in chief and both collaborate via Comstar Focht as to what their military operations are so they can coordinate attacks on both sides of the invasion corridor if necessary.

If the TC attacks the FC (FS) she cannot send SLDF units – she can only use regular FC units – however this would go against everything the TC have planned for – they have always stayed with a defense in depth strategy – to shift to full out war and an invasion, it would have to be a far worse reason.

However if other gamers want this war during the Clan Invasion then why not? I would also suggest that the MOC could invade to take them over.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem
05/12/20 11:16 PM
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Creating Military Army Units to engage the Clans

For FC - Assume orders are sent to 5 Elite RCTs – and are all within a similar range to Clan OZ
First they are sent to a rendezvous point above a world that can accommodate massive repair facilities.

Eg. Arc Royal (those on the Lyran / FWL border or Skye (coming from the new FWL March and Draconis March)

All Mechs / Vehicles / Infantry etc are provided with new weapons upgrades on a first come basis

Once completed the Unit of 5 RCTs are sent into the Clan OZ to set their garrisons on fire – they are to remain within this unit at all time.

Objective tie down a complete Galaxy on one world – thus they will no longer be able to use blitzkrieg tactics – they are now subject to a war of attrition

Hopefully there should be many of these Army units to engage the Clans Galaxies

By the end of the first 18 months of War with the Clans
ComGuard – 5 army groups (25 regiments)
DC – hopefully they can have 8 army groups (40 regiments)
FC - hopefully they can have 15 army groups (75 regiments)
FRR – 1 army group (5 regiments)
FWL - hopefully they can have 5 army groups (25 regiments)
Dof A and MoC - hopefully they can have 2 army groups (10 regiments)
Wolf Dragoons – 1 army group.

Total of 41 Army Groups

Plus there will be mercenary units mixed in above as well as individual groups assigned to the Clans rear – taking out garrisons / those PGCs that did not switch side etc.

These army groups are supplied with reinforcements from other units as and when required
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/13/20 12:15 PM
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One item that can NOT be part of an upgrade kit is endo steel. That requires a full rebuilding of the skeleton, which is very stupid to even try to do in the field. So those units would have to be new builds. That would be a bottle neck there. Ferrous Fiber is something else that might run into issues, as the crits would not be standard as different units would think arms were more for weapons attachment and such.
Another topic to be discussed is omni technology. Can it be a field upgrade to make or does it have to be built into the unit while being made? I would say from factory, as you are talking a major remodel of the internals of the unit.

The military arms unit has an issue that needs to be addressed. The elite regiments being source of it. There are not supposed to be that many elite units to even begin to build more then a few regiments, much less as many as suggested.

The idea of where they start also needs to be looked into.
If the clans were stalled before the 'peace' period, would they have even reached certain worlds, like Twycross, or Wolcott? Even Rassalhague remains questionable.
With the greater defense and counter offensives, would the clans have to rebid or even stop forward momentum into the IS, as their attrition would prevent moving further? Even possible causing for more reinforcements from the home worlds? This would accelerate the whole unhappiness of the home clans. It may well cause them to nullify the bid and send in their own forces, which would cause major issues with their own traditions.
I could use this as a way to suggest the wolves might not have issues leaving the IS, but that would detract from the idea of the home clans pushing for a new invasion scenario.
Requiem
05/13/20 05:52 PM
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Yes –
Endo-Steel requires an orbital facility to manufacture and as such must be included within the construction phase;
Ferro-Fibrous Armor it may be more costly and more difficult to repair or add as an upgrade to a ‘Mech – but it is not impossible.
Omni-technology will also be required at the construction phase;

However, the real issue is
3050 IS Ferro-Fibrous armor – provides more protection per ton than standard armor and takes up more space on the vehicle;
3050 IS Endo-Steel – provides a metal twice as strong per unit weight but at an overall bulk.
The Clans are able to produce more efficient examples ….. to begin with.
Just as weapons can be reverse engineered so too can these, so give it a number of years and expect the IS to be able to produce clan knock offs, then it just comes down to mass production and for which machines / omni-mechs will this new technology be assigned to.

Quote:
There are not supposed to be that many elite units to even begin to build more then a few regiments, much less as many as suggested.



Then why not consider the Veteran units to lead the way if there are only a few elite units?

Quote:
The idea of where they start also needs to be looked into.



Not really,
First, divide individual Clans into attack groups with their own invasion corridor path – this can be done easily as per each Galaxy are assigned a world – and even clusters may be assigned to a world – the issue is the number of Jump-ships available per attack unit. Initially the Clans should have been able to attack far more worlds than they are within the Canon version – and over time this number should be reducing due to the number of units assigned to garrison duty – protection of logistics – ordered to return to a previously captured world as the planet has been liberated and now must be re-conquered again.
Also the initial battles should be over with very quickly – given their propensity for Blitzkrieg tactics.
Thus with each successive wave the number of worlds being captured should be shrinking due to the reallocation of resources.

Which demonstrates an error within the Canon version – Look at Wave 5 for the Clans as to the number of worlds attacked

Ghost Bear – 18
Jade Falcon – 4
Nova Cat – 10
Smoke Jaguar – 11
Steel Viper – 5
Wolf – 32

Both the Bears and the Wolves must have stripped their interior forces to create an invasion force large enough to conquer this amount of worlds – making them vulnerable or a counter attack by the Falcons and the Jaguars. Inner sphere forces within their invasion corridor (due to reduced garrison numbers) could have attacked - thus this is quite counter intuitive – especially for the Wolves, as any sign of weakness by them should have been pounced on by the Falcons and the Bears / Jaguars as every Clan hates the wolves and any chance that arises that could be used to stick it to the Wolves would have been jumped on by their rival clans!
Given the number of worlds the Falcons attacked they should have had reserves within the ir interior to attack the Wolves – given that they would have had to gut their interior to attack 32 new worlds, so why they didn’t makes no sense.
Both the Cats and the Vipers have only just now been activated – thus they should have been able to attack far more numerous worlds than given (especially the vipers given the number of units they have on hand) so why they didn’t is also a mystery.


It then comes down to the IS’s response – how many units are within proximity that be used initially – and with every battle more information is gleamed as to the Clans preferred fighting style and a more appropriate response is formulated by Hanse and Theodore.

It then comes down to how long it would take for units to travel from their original garrisons (to refit worlds – to be rearmed with the most advanced tech available) and then on to the Clan OZ (front lines) to begin formulating a more effective counter attack. Over time with the formation of small army units – 5 RCTs - to concentrate forces against the clans and turn the battles from Blitzkrieg to attrition – the duration of the battles would be increasing for a single world – something the Clans never prepared for (They will now need vast numbers of logistics and medical personnel on the front lines for Logistical requirements as well as MASH units – thus amore free-born will have to be seconded into this new support base for the warriors – and how many will defect during these battles – thus causing more elementals being diverted from the front line to security operations).

You just need to run the invasion from start (invading the IS) to finish (being kicked out)

And during this you must be on the look-out for special key battles that can flip the game one way or the other per Clan or House.

So what is considered is going to be initially bigger than that of the Canon invasion but over time the clans will have to reorganize their corridors into something more manageable give their decreasing unit numbers.

Quote:
If the clans were stalled before the 'peace' period, would they have even reached certain worlds, like Twycross, or Wolcott? Even Rassalhague remains questionable.



Unknown at this stage – I will need time to create a pinboard and a schedule sheet to work this all out and at the moment I do not know when I will get the time to do this.
Quote:
With the greater defense and counter offensives, would the clans have to rebid or even stop forward momentum into the IS, as their attrition would prevent moving further?



Given enough time and as the number of small armies – 5 RCT attack groups – are assigned to the Clan OZ their forward momentum will come to halt. They will then begin to be pushed back – something that has never occurred and will be very frightening for the Clans – So somewhere around here is when the two Clan Reserve units should be tapped to increase the scope of the war.

Quote:
Even possible causing for more reinforcements from the home worlds?



Yes – most invasion Clans should be “all in” – all reserve units held within the Home Worlds will be called upon to supplement there is forces.

And yes this would accelerate the whole bitterness towards the Invasion Clans the Home Clans are. Resulting in first an argument within the Grand Council and as the amount of animosity increases a civil war Crusader Clans Vs. Warden Clans as to the future of their society as well as the need to reform their military / traditions – the need for conventional vehicles, artillery, infantry / a massive increase to the number of elementals etc on line with how the IS forces otherwise given attrition warfare they will be at a disadvantage.

Thus given the civil war + time to reform their military / society the second IS invasion should start 30 to 40 years after the finish of the first invasion.

During this time period the IS will decide to not go looking for the Clan home worlds – they will take a defensive posture to expand their Navy / create a new buffer state (within the deep periphery) between their Realms (the IS) and that of the Clan Home Worlds – and this will end up being Victor / Omika’s new realm – and their children’s war.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/13/20 08:59 PM
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The orbital facilities to make Endo steel isn't the issue. The ENTIRE skeletal structure of the mech would need to be swapped out. Trying to do an arm or a leg at a time would not work. This also means everything in the mech would have to be removed and replaced once the new skeleton was done. And it would be inconsistent on where the crits would be filled. Not sure why this point was missed in the statement.

Clarification. Ferrous Fiber doesn't take up more space on a mech, but the way vehicles are constructed, the crits aren't as cramped or vital as a mechs.

Even though the Wolves/Bears were pretty well protected by the outer two clans, there is only so much you can take from guard duty. The canon versions says the Wolves were less of overlords, so the people didn't resent them as much, so less forces were needed to guard things. This would well lead into more forces for attack. Not saying they didn't draw more heavily on the guard units, as it was said they did. Less friction with the trueborn/freeborn issues of the clanners themselves. Less, not none.

With the new concept of fighting the clans, the IS would definitely have hit worlds left by the major clan forces, which would have caused them to have to go back and reopen their supply lines. So wave 5 would not have them as deep in the alt under these conditions as canon had them. Unless you are going to keep with the faulty logic that the clans just ran over regiments of vehicles and infantry, as well as no counter attacks were successful or even damaging enough to remove from line troops from the clans.
With the concept of having more ship, that lack of can't be used to limit the responses like canon either.

The number of units within reach of the clans invasion would have been changed as well with the alt. You said it yourself. Less would have been lost in the 3039 war, as either the CC didn't survive the 4th and the FC didn't attack the DC. or the CC was the prime target, so the DC wasn't involved as much. It was also suggested by you, that more units would have been built with the lack of heavy fighting as well as the industrial revolution sparked by the Helm Core.
Or did this get changed?

The second invasion? Wouldn't that be something that wouldn't happen, as the SL would be pushing towards the clan home worlds? Or did this change as well?
Requiem
05/14/20 06:47 AM
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Quote:
The ENTIRE skeletal structure of the mech would need to be swapped out.



Cannot be done in the field (waste of time and energy as too labor intensive for the any military benefit) - only whist being manufactured. – thus it comes back to an orbital facility that can manufacture for the creation of a new Mech.

Quote:
The canon versions says the Wolves were less of overlords, so the people didn't resent them as much, so less forces were needed to guard things.



and if anyone believes this to be true ……… sorry but this statement does not hold water –
All the Clans are a Caste based society – something the majority of the IS people will NEVER accept;
Who also believe in removing children from their families – the family unit – how about holidays and recreational equipment even?;
Removing a person’s identity (last name);
Do not believe in money the same way the IS people do;
The IS people will lose all representation with regards to their local government – as the Clans are totalitarian;
The Clans believe how a person is born determines their worth to society; and
They believe that the pinnacle of society is the warrior – in some countries this is the Dr. in Germany it is the Engineer …

The Clans and the people of the IS are like oil and water – there is no way that any person within the IS will accept this BS society – that is unless they want to be a quisling!

Their society is so detrimental to the IS way of life you will be looking at mass resistance movements upon every world.

The Clans have no understanding at all when it comes to understanding any other society and how to work with another society they are completely Ethnocentric!

Something that was completely lost within the canon writings!

So no they would not be able to remove forces within the centre of their realm to gain more worlds during wave 5.

Plus what good is the clans spy service if they cannot keep tabs on their rival Clans? – if the Wolves remove too many forces from the centre of their corridor the Falcons would have definitely invaded with multiple bids to take key Wolf worlds from them just for the fun of sticking it to the wolves.

Quote:
guard units



What guard units, go back and look at Clan Wolf Touman – there are no PGCs or solhama - only regular units.

Quote:
So wave 5 would not have them as deep in the alt under these conditions as canon had them.



WW2 Italy – they are going to hit a wall where tactics will shift dramatically from blitzkrieg to attrition – and from there on out they will suffer massive damage that cannot be repaired given their limited logistics and sibko numbers.

As for Naval battles they will be fought throughout the invasion timeline.

Quote:
3039 war and the implications for the Clan Invasion



CC – destroyed – a minimum of 8 to a max of 15 new RCTs – access to new Mechs – Cataphract, Raven etc - access to conventional fighter manufacturing facilities – access to vengeance Class Drop Ship – access to a new Warship manufacturing facility etc.

DC – as they were not attacked the question of keeping the Ghost units hidden for 11 years is hard to believe – sooner or later they should have become a known fact (maybe not the exact number of units). Then the questions must be asked as to why the Yakuza have access to Star League era ‘Mechs and where did they come from.
Plus the DCMS should have been able to manufacture a couple more regiments

However the amount spy activity with regards to these Ghost Units will be in over drive by the FC, DC and ComStar.

The idea as to what Hanse would do if he did get definitive proof that ComStar provided DC with these mechs is hard to quantify – for me I like the idea of him having a lawn party where it looks as though ComStar has provided him with star league era mechs – thus irritating the FWL and the DC as to what is going on ….. just so he can cause discomfort and distrust as to ComStar’s motives.

Thus for the FC number of units / mechs / Warships / Dropships / Jumpships etc increases as they can now draw on the entire CC for the past 10 years.

Quote:
so the DC wasn't involved as much



No – they would have used as many of their Regiments as possible.

It is just that by 3050 the FC would have three times the forces the DC have so the main brunt of the war would have come from the FC on to the Clans – so the majority of the ComGuard would have been posted into the DC to assist them once the new Star League was formed.

Quote:
more units would have been built with the lack of heavy fighting + new technology



Correct for the past 10 years the IS have been in a state of relative peace – every Great House should have been able to produce more of everything.

However – with the arrival of the Clans and a declaration of Total War production (as per USA WW2) – the amount of new IS production should includes exponentially - as time goes on the Clans will soon find themselves being out produced as the IS sould be able to produce at couple hundred times that of the Clans Home worlds and sooner or later attrition should wear them down until they are finally kicked out (as evidenced with the fact that one Clan has the population of just one IS world).

Quote:
The second invasion? Wouldn't that be something that wouldn't happen, as the SL would be pushing towards the clan home worlds? Or did this change as well?



Due to the massive IS deaths the IS will not follow the Clans back to their Home Worlds – they will stop and attempt to heal / rebuild new realms etc into the deep periphery etc.

30 – 40 years latter they will realize the error of not finishing the job as the Clans start a second invasion of the IS – this time all the clans will attack as one force! (This is the long term plan!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/14/20 12:40 PM
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Only the endosteal itself needs to be zero-g made. The mechs can be made planetside.

So you can't believe the wolves were less hostile to their conquered? So would that mean you don't believe the character Ulric in the story line? He would be the main one telling the rest to just leave the populace alone.

Not sure why removal of the last name is such a big deal? That is unless you are of noble blood and want to flaunt that.
Now the issue for the clan's watch. According to the loyalty instilled in most trueborns, spying is considered something only the dark caste would do. I think most other clans would know if you failed to become a warrior, so when you show up to try and infiltrate theirs, well, it just doesn't work. And they would not be able to do much working the IS. Which is part of why the entire Dragoons project as well as Wolfnet seems unlikely.

Still not getting the concept with the alt time line? The extra facilities as well as no major war means more troops lived and are present when the clans attacked. That means more on the 'northern' border areas as well as reinforcements being moved quicker. This would include bigger militias on some, If not all the worlds the clans hit. With the black box deployed as you wanted, the secret of the invasions would have made it to their military much quicker, as well as more information on them. The clans would not have been near Twycross and such if all this was true.
With the extra aerospace units you touted starting much earlier in the time frame, such as 3025, this would also reduce the clans gains.
Also, the better the tech, the more likely of warships earlier, which is something else you said you were going to use. So the clans advantage there would main be numbers for some, and experience for the clanners. The fact that the clans would probably have to escort their forces with a warship would slow them down even more.

I would say the new SL forces would be in the FRR more then the DC, but as stated above, the entire idea that the clans would not get that far, as there is more units and equipment available to the IS, it may well be the FC/DC are able to spare some forces to help the FRR. So almost the entire invasion would be different from the start.

So what made you change the IS from going after the clan home worlds? You were pushing for a complete destruction of the clans before.
Requiem
05/15/20 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Only the endo-steal itself needs to be zero-g made. The mechs can be made planet-side.



Correct

Quote:
So you can't believe the wolves were less hostile to their conquered?



The Clans have a range of volatility when it comes to IS civilians

Jaguars being the worst.

Quote:
So would that mean you don't believe the character Ulric in the story line?



The character as written is just the military persona – he and the Wolf Clans’ actions as to their actions with IS civilians is completely left in the dark when it comes to the novels, and there are only statements like written above “were less of overlords, so the people didn't resent them as much,”
The question is what does this actually mean? We can only go on how they treat their own people back on the Clan Home worlds and how an average IS person would “appreciate” being treated in the same way – and the answer is clear, they would fight the Wolves to the death if they attempted to implement many of their more ludicrous societies / government beliefs on IS people ….

Quote:
He would be the main one telling the rest to just leave the populace alone.



No he wouldn’t. He would not even care about the IS people as long as it does not disrupt his military and they do as they are told. It is up to the highest ranked person per world to “govern” the world under their control. Not once in all on the novels did he even once discuss the issue of IS civilians!

Remember they are a Totalitarian Government who takes children away from their parents and removes peoples identity by stripping them of their last name - this fact does not ever change!!!!!!!

Quote:
the clan's watch



Ever since the days of Nicholas every Clan has been watching all the other Clans – in the home they can spot weakness / new technology they can exploit / obtain. It is highly implausible that this spying would suddenly disappear just because they have entered the IS.
Remember this is a race to become the il-Clan – if one clan can hobble the advance of another it is acceptable – so if the Falcons can hobble the Wolves all the better for them.

Quote:
The clans would not have been near Twycross and such if all this was true.



I have yet to have the time to sit down and work this out – so I cannot comment

Quote:
With the extra aerospace units you touted starting much earlier in the time frame, such as 3025, this would also reduce the clans gains.



Correct – given the number of fighters and bombers available to IS forces the Clans forces would require massive more fighters. But this also extends to their elementals as well, the figures as provided by cannon is way below where it should be to be an effective part of the invasion given that IS infantry have access to support weapons that can kill an elemental.

Remember the Canon game was designed with the premise that only those forces within the 2nd Edn. House Books exist - massively reducing every Houses forces – they then reduce the IS forces by ignoring the fact that every world should be able to produce conventional aircraft, armor and Infantry weapon systems with relative ease and in vast numbers. Thus as soon as the fact becomes apparent the Clans Military (as per Canon figures) are now completely useless – as any world with a substantial population should have a tank, fighter and infantry force that could give even a Clan Galaxy a run for their money!

Thus like everything within the Invasion a rewrite as to the Clans Invasion numbers will be required lest the entire invasion will be over way too quickly!

Quote:
the more likely of warships earlier



As stated previously I am going to allow IS to have warships as at the time of the invasion – otherwise the IS must be allowed nukes against them – thus in the interest of removing nukes from the game the IS must have warships if the Clans have them. Plus their ability to manufacture them in vast numbers will become apparent during the game when yo take into consideration the massive industrial base of the IS – it comes back to WW2 Japan Vs America – they awoke a sleeping industrial powerhouse who initially was badly hurt but over time could manufacture vast amounts of materials ….. especially when just one IS world has the same GDP as an entire clan …. The idea that the clans could survive for a long period of time within the IS becomes a ludicrous concept.

Quote:
So the clans advantage there would main be numbers for some, and experience for the clanners.



Yes the IS has vast numbers and experience when it comes to attrition – long term warfare where logistics play a big part in the battles outcome.
The clans, initially have technology on their side – better trained warriors – and massive experience with using dueling / blitzkrieg warfare (however their logistics is a joke when it comes to reinforcements from a sibko system).

Quote:
The fact that the clans would probably have to escort their forces with a warship would slow them down even more.



To start off with – doubtful – but as the IS forces become more daring and the number of ships disappear – yes.

Quote:
I would say the new SL forces would be in the FRR more then the DC



Considering how small the FRR is on the map – I doubt it – the ComGuard would be better placed striking with the DC.

Quote:
So almost the entire invasion would be different from the start.



Agree – once I have some free time to investigate it will be interesting to consider – but first I will need to completely re-vamp the size of every Clans forces to something that can give the IS a stand up fight. As is the numbers are just not there with regards to Fighters and Elementals.

Quote:
So what made you change the IS from going after the clan home worlds? You were pushing for a complete destruction of the clans before.



I was considering History / politics – how many times has an enemy been defeated only to rise up again because the job was only half done? Plus human apathy – the war was won we drove off the enemies …. The damage to our forces are great …. Time to rebuild…. We don’t need to chase them to the ends of the universe ….. <and yet in hindsight maybe this would have been the best course of action>

Plus the idea of having a second war in the far future, with a re-vamped clans, will make for a great story - when you put the next generation into the mix …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
05/15/20 04:12 AM
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Actually, there are a few statements that the wolves were not so harsh on their own. The fact that the labor and merchant castes were willing to go out of their way and help Ulric says a lot. Also, the entire canon line says they were not as bad. In the alt, they might well be happy to whip anyone that looks at them funny.

There is a huge difference between being a spy in the clans and trying to be on in the IS. One big thing is the fact that a clan spy entering the IS would not even begin to know how to act or react to things. Protests against their leaders would visually show the person sicken, as obedience is something the clans are instilled with. You fight a trial if you do not agree. You don't run protests.
The clans tend to be less able when it comes to counter spies. Not completely useless, but compare to the IS and ROM agents, the pale. Any questions on history in the IS would show they are not from it. The use of a new term for a planet would show this.

The clans numbers and experience wasn't talking about IS using attrition to win. It was about having warships in the initial invasion. They had experience with fighting with them, though it was more ceremonial then what the IS would have, but enough to keep one on one as a win for their sides most of the time. The IS would use numbers when they can.

As said before. Why would you leave the middle open so the enemy can get into your rear areas? The FRR would be a far better place to base the anti clan units at, as they could hit all over the corridor with less time lag. They could still help the DC greatly, but forcing the Jaguars to deal with 2 fronts, maybe 3 if the Bears decides to mess with them. Not saying they wouldn't have units in the DC, but it seems like a poor choice to have the bulk of your units, when your goal is taking out all the clans. A large group would force the clans to cut back on assaults, or else lose the smaller unit actions.

Interesting on the change that the damage to the forces was so bad, you don't want to push it, is pretty much why the Lyrans didn't hit Falcons after the Wolf war. This is also why a few other points in history didn't show the extermination of the enemy when their should have been.
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