Requiem
05/15/20 05:46 AM
1.158.188.5
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The fact that the labor and merchant castes were willing to go out of their way and help Ulric says a lot.
What is the incentive that drives workers? Additional Benefits or the absence of being disciplined?
Unless there is a categorical explanation as to the incentive of workers I cannot help but speculate. Especially when you look at other readings – such as their idea of a Police force – Elemental Washouts who are more like thugs than a dedicated Police force.
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There is a huge difference between being a spy in the clans and trying to be on in the IS.
Correct – but as this is about a spying on a fellow Clan it should be achievable …. They have been doing this since Nicholas established the first group to watch the Wolverines … so they must have a modicum of skill …
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….. having warships in the initial invasion
Both sides have less than stellar understanding of how to conduct void warfare with regards to warships.
Thus both sides may be reviewing any information they have on the subject and conducting multiple shakedown cruises to teach the crews.
Even crossing the” T” in a three dimensions may be an issue to work out. (refer WW1 Battle of Jutland)
However over time the IS should be able to out-produce the Clans in the number of ships the question still must be asked though how many are still within their holding fleets in deep space that were part of the exodus?
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Why would you leave the middle open so the enemy can get into your rear areas?
Then how did the Wolves pull enough forces together to take 31 worlds during wave 5 if they didn’t pull forces from many of their worlds?
Thus creating a lack of garrison forces on many worlds during this time frame.
Thus creating an opportunity for the Falcons …. And the Bears ….
In all reality this Wave 5 push by Clan Wolf is a classic example of over extending their lines at the detriment of their logistics – did no one read about the Battle of Teutoburg Forest – “Varus give me back my legions!”
Really after a while I begin to wonder how the Clan Invasion was formulated give the amount of issues I have discovered …
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Interesting on the change that the damage to the forces was so bad, you don't want to push it, is pretty much why the Lyrans didn't hit Falcons after the Wolf war
Except for the fact the ARDC has its own forces that are undamaged by the Civil War – including the Kell Hounds etc – remember how badly both the Wolves and the Falcons were at the end of this war? The wolves went on to harvest warriors from the Jaguars even! At this stage the Lyrans could have easily taken back the entire area the Falcons and the Wolves had taken.
In not taking the war to the Falcons and the Wolves (post war) shows a pivotal mistake by everyone concerned.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/15/20 12:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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Wasn't talking about the wolves when I returned your statement of leaving the middle open. That was in response to the SL troops being mainly stationed in the DC, not the FRR. The discussion said the DC/FC would NOT just leave the FRR to fend for itself, as it would allow the clans to smash thru them and hit their nation's area closer to Terra.
A pincer movement does just this, but with the IS, there is no real coordination to do this on a grand scale. It also trusts that you can delay the middle forces or hit them with enough forces from the flanks to stop them from moving forward and causing them to turn their backs on one of the flankers.
Again, the idea of time delay and not having exact information Is eluding you. If intel operated like it seems is being suggested, there would be absolutely instantaneous actions to any movement of forces. Not sure if that is confusing the ability to get word to units a few miles, maybe 10 or so from a location or if you think there are thousands of trained spies on each world. Simply reporting the local forces haven't been seen isn't the same thing as they being moved to an assault unit on another world. The agent could well have missed their assignment to another part of the planet or even system. For the clans, the numbers are even more against them. Their limited populations would mean far less spies would be there then even the CC or periphery states.
But the amount of spies works against the IS as well, though they have a larger number then the clans.
Risk has always been a part of war. Doing as the wolves did, they took advantage of the others lack of coordination among their own troops. As the FRR wasn't as strong as the FC/DC, they had less issues then the JF/SJ. The GB should have been able to do more then they did. Not sure if it was their bidding that slowed them down so much. I know it was written that way, but not sure if it was just a gut thing or based on some logic. It may well be, the GB's own traditions had to have a warship with the units invading. I don't know.
Mistakes are constantly made. And the true extent of the Falcon/Wolf fight was not known until Phelan got to the ARDC. Even then, the amount of damage was not known. But even with that, they could not risk leaving worlds undefended, in order to strike out at either or both. I think some raids should have happened to test this, as been the case for the entire succession war history, which is part of why Katherine was not the ruler she is made out to be. She was more worried about her image and power, that she did not want to shift any forces to deal with the weakened border.
The ability to harvest troops from other clans could well be why they didn't move as well. How did they know the Falcons didn't have a large number of troops ready to arrive just before the Refusal war happened? Saying the Wolves in exile would have known this, because they wouldn't have.
Another thing, the ARDC looked to take up the slack of defending their area, while cutting out quick access to the LA troop movements on the border. To send out forces to hit the clans would have allowed Katherine to send troops into the ARDC to take them out.
This is not, nor can not, be an all or nothing set up, as losing a majority of your forces leads to your people paying the price, as well as you. And you would lose more then a few doing so.
The all or nothing is why nukes are an issue. Concentration of forces makes a single nuke devastating to that huge group. But yet, there are just as powerful weapons that can be used from orbit, which does not leave the radiation of a nuke. And a warship is not needed to use it.
Also, in a sci fi game, I would think they would have come up with other weapons, such as a fission bomb, or maybe antimatter. Even opening up a 'jump' portal in the middle of a unit would do some major damage. It just needs to open and destroy the stuff around it, like a jump ship does. It doesn't have to really do anything more.
Which leads me to have to ask. Does an HPG on a world cause a thunder shockwave when it is used? Either like lightning superheating the air, causing it to rapidly expand? Or when the portal closes, and the air rushes back in to refill the void left by the portal?
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Requiem
05/16/20 02:27 AM
1.158.188.5
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The discussion said the DC/FC would NOT just leave the FRR to fend for itself, as it would allow the clans to smash thru them and hit their nation's area closer to Terra.
This is why there must be multiple lines of defense (same as WW2 Italy)
However for the Clans to conduct this strategy this would require them to go against their own martial culture of Superiority over the Inner Sphere – their idea of honor, bidding etc. as it should now be considered to be disregarded. As they would be bypassing many strong enemy military positions to attack weaker targets – something the average Clan warrior would consider dishonorable.
In my Alt.
The problem with the I.S. is they require a strong coordinated military strategy – thus one commander to strategically control the big picture – that is a Supreme Allied Commander – an Eisenhower. Thus as soon as the Star League is re-formed in the first / second year of the Clan Invasion, and by extension the SLDF – a supreme allied commander is required – and the only viable candidate I can see is Morgan Hasek-Davion (excluding all House Leaders) as he is the only person who has the prerequisites. Thus causing issues with re to the DC thus in order to placate the DC his XO would have to be Hohiro Kurita II.
As the problem with Anastasius Focht is that he is ComGuard – he is a complete unknown – and Comstar has just undergone a trial for their perfidy with supplying the Clans with Military Information / administering their conquered worlds (ie quislings) thus he is tainted by Primus Myndo Waterly. Thus in my Alt Focht is relegated to Charles de Gaulle.
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Again, the idea of time delay and not having exact information Is eluding you.
Sorry but no, I am quite aware of the time delay when it comes to the flow of information – as for spies in this area there should be many spies per world as this is a former DC realm – now the FRR – and on the FC / DC border. Proximity alone dictated the need for a dozen or so per world. As for the skill of the spies, what they can / cannot do this is again speculative – the problem is the clans do not have a dedicated military counter-intelligence organization – they do not have the security forces to even create an adequate security force per garrison – they do not have an adequate police force – there is just no way the clans can adequately govern any world with a serious population unless they use terror tactics (obey or we will wipe this town and its entire population of the map) the Clans Population / invasion military is ridiculously too small to be able to be considered to achieve a viable military objective.
So again - to bring reality back to the game the Clan’s military requires an adjustment. Upon receiving the initial report from Wolf’s Dragoons (3020/21) military analysts should have recognized the issue of a social disparity between that of the Clans and the people of the IS – (if they don’t then the majority of their military gains are just doomed to failure as their small garrisons should be able to be killed off by a company of snipers) – Thus the Leviathan (Jump-ship) must become a staple of all the Clans ….. so that the clans must now have
MechWarriors
Aerospace Pilots
Elementals
And now mass Infantry which includes MPs and some sort of counter intelligence teams – as well as a vast array of vehicles to assist their infantry as well as logistical support vehicles.
The Clans would also need a dedicated Administrate Unit – and some sort of plan for if and when a sizeable planet is conquered – 7,000,000,000 people on one world and no plan to govern them?
Otherwise the entire idea as to a clan invasion is reduced to the status of a joke.
The issue with the Ghost Bears is their population – for some strange reason they have half the population as that of the next Clan at only 25,000,000 – thus making it ‘easer’ for them to conduct their Clan wide exodus to the IS – did someone even point out to the Clans that a population of 25,000,000 people is the same as just one city on a major world within the IS? Thus making the idea of an invasion, even with their superior technology, a completely a completely and utterly ludicrous proposition.
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And the true extent of the Falcon/Wolf fight was not known until Phelan got to the ARDC.
What the? The LC and the ARDC couldn’t work out how vulnerable these two clans really were for over a year – thus they did nothing during this entire year - so they didn’t re-conquer their lost worlds during this year?
And what were the Inner Sphere spies doing during this period – sipping tea on the balcony?
At the end of their war one unit, such as the Kell Hounds, dropping onto the top of the “Jade Wolves” could have killed off the leadership of the Falcons and the Wolves and destabilized their entire Occupation Zones of these two Clans – that could have allowed for a total recapture of this entire area.
Any yet what happened - both the Falcons and the Wolves were allowed to Harvest enough troops from the Jaguars / Clan Home Worlds to bring them back to 100% operational capabilities thus requiring a period of vulnerability FOR OVER A YEAR ( 6 moths there and 6 months back)!
Time to realize the entire aftermath of the Falcon / Wolf War holds no reality whatsoever!
It is not a question of what Katherine would have done it is a question of what Morgan and the ARDC should have done!
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The all or nothing is why nukes are an issue
As soon as the idea of nukes or an orbital bombardment is considered the ground warfare game is no longer an issue – might as well give up with all ground forces and concentrate on building a massive navy.
Thus the need for a mechanism to outlaw these from the game – i.e. there needs to be a dedicated list as to the rules of war. As for sci-fi weapons – once activated they will destroy everything any use of them will also destroy the game unless they is a way to also neutralize them.
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Does an HPG on a world cause a thunder shockwave when it is used?
It id does then it would have been weaponised by 3025.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/16/20 03:28 AM
66.74.60.165
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Given earlier discussions the multiple lines of defense sounds backwards from previous posts. The ones where every trooper on a world should be in one spot. The fact that you can't have them all in one location is why it is so difficult to be a smaller but compact enemy. You might have 1million troopers, but only 30k in one location. So someone with 60k, can destroy a lot before you can chase them down.
There is a unit missing from the clans should have in their inventory, which is vehicles. Mechs, fighters and elementals are all useful, but there are more then a few cases that vehicles are more efficient. One case would be crossing a sea when the enemy controls the skies. Hovers would come to mind. And the clan vehicles should be smartly made. Not the crap of nerfing them to the point of being as useless as the trueborns think they are.
The ineptitude of the IS spies is a sore point with the clans. They found out a lot more difficult issues with less resources before the clans showed up. The slow response for blunting the clans was a bit to slow. As said about the Galtor Campaign, there were over a dozen units rotated out of that fight. Time did have something to do with it, but the fact they even had that many to send that quickly shows something was wrong with the response. That is probably why the amount of troops had to be cut so much. There is no way the response would be that bad otherwise.
The intel shadow war would have had the FC moving away from Comstar for important messages that didn't need to be there right away. It would even be likely to be used to contact troops in the same system as the sender, as it is much faster then normal coms.
Other reasons, such as not wanting to put the people thru another meat grinder was used to explain the lack of attacks on the Falcons/Wolves, but given it was after the truce went into effect, why didn't comstar have any say in going at them? To remove the Wolves from the FRR would have given them a boost up in reputation after operation scorpion was done. The Bears would have been either happy to see it, or worried as it meant the Wolves were not on their border, but an IS force.
The have to have nukes or warships isn't the only response to the clans warships. It makes it a little easier to remove them, but not the only way.
But no matter the game, any sort of air power tends to shut down land battles quickly. There is no easy way around it. With this concept, the IS would have moved away from mechs, as it was far to expensive to make and use them, verses large amounts of fighters, both space and atmospheric, as well as Vtols. The Vtols being the easier to use, as you don't need dedicated runways. The aero fighters can use space bases, but response time and knowing the enemy will have to do something about that limits them a little.
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Requiem
05/16/20 05:14 AM
1.158.188.5
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The ones where every trooper on a world should be in one spot.
Sorry you have lost me here …..
Very basically ….
Counterattacking the Clan’s Main thrust are multiple 5 RCT Groups
Behind the scenes are the Fenris forces in the Deep Periphery
Deep strike groups in the Wave 1 / wave 2 area assisting partisans / destroying garrisons etc – setting the Clans Rear / internal OZ ablaze.
Out from the OZ there are multiple worlds where IS units undergo refit with the most up to date tech available – they are then to be sent in as replacement personnel as and when required – they are also to be used in the event the Clans decide to strike out / jump the line – as ready reaction force.
Then there are multiple IS naval units within the Clan OZ and outside protecting anything of importance.
In addition to this every world within a reasonable strike radius has been put on alert and is to notify supreme HQ and their House Lord of any new developments via ComStar HPG / Black Box as required.
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Clan vehicles
The clans have less than 30 years to get their vehicles together – it is up to each Clan (GM / Game Group) to build these.
But I do agree they should be something interesting – and they should also be omni.
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IS / clan spies
Both groups have a vast amount of problems with them in every time period – from the ir professionalism – how they operate and what information they should be able to find out …. Every GM / Gaming group should be able to make their own determinations for their games for I doubt we would ever get two people agreeing on this point.
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Other reasons, such as not wanting to put the people thru another meat grinder was used to explain the lack of attacks on the Falcons/Wolves
And yet this is their job – to go through the meat grinder when ordered to do so.
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To remove the Falcons and the Wolves
In all reality they should have become bondsman or run back to the Clan Home worlds – where one or more of the Home Clans would have absorbed or annihilated them.
That leaves the Jaguars and Vipers and Cats and Bears ….. what happens next after the removal of the Wolves and the Falcons would be subject to great deal of conjecture … from retreating back to the Clan Home worlds to calling for new Clans from the Home-worlds to replace those that have been lost ….
But whatever the choice is the Clans would be horrified at what the barbarian IS are capable of …. Though they may lay the blame at the feet of the Wolves and the Falcons …. They destroyed themselves!
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It makes it a little easier to remove them, but not the only way.
In the absence of IS warships – how else are you going to deal with Clan’s Warships?
With regards to fighters and bombers – where is the Mech weapon system that made them obsolete to begin with otherwise what was the point of making Mechs?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/16/20 12:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans have always had vehicles. It isn't like they left them all behind when they left the IS. In the 3060 TRO, the Epona hover tank has been used for over seventy years, which is an omni vehicle as well. So that means before 2990 it was being used.
The reality of the keeping soldiers fighting, leads to morale issues as well as a complete breakdown of your military. They are not machines. Some are stuck where they are, no matter what. Not being able to recover them being a main reason why, but to actually order them to stay there is where you start having issues.
What is the point of making mechs?
That is what most people don't want asked. There is very little reason to have mechs if you really think about it. Elementals basically remove a the major reason why they 'had' to keep mechs going. Infantry was hard to score quick victories against other infantry, and tended to do poorly against a well made tank. That was changed with the Elemental. Then changing infantry damage, so an Awesome could not wipe out a platoon or more with each volley.
Vehicles, with the exception of not being able to be dropped in a HALO situation, and not being able to move thru heavy woods, tend to be equal to a mech of the same tonnage. Vehicles only started falling behind with the advance of the double heat sink, were near equals. Movement being the main advantage of the mech. In close combat, the physical attack comes to the forefront.
With this, where is the advantage to mechs? They cost more, need more maintenance, take up for more room, and need specialized training to really work them. This is why vehicles have to be nerfed, as logic would say they should be used only in specialized roles, such as the initial HALO drops, yet now elementals can do that.
If not for being the game of stompy robots, there becomes a major logic issue with continuing to promote mechs over other combat units.
Not saying vehicles should replace them, as I like using the stomp against others, but if you really think about it, they are expensive toys.
One more thing came to mind before closing this post. You can reduce the number of people needed, as the mechs only require one person to run it. Costs are the same, as an other unit is paid the same for all the soldiers, IE an entire tank crew combined is about the same salary as a single mech warrior.
Added note. The wiki says 2884 as the year for the Epona to be released. The TRO didn't have a date of release in it.
Edited by ghostrider (05/16/20 12:03 PM)
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Requiem
05/16/20 05:28 PM
1.158.188.5
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The clans have always had vehicles.
Yes I would agree they definitely should have them – however once Nicholas created the Clans and his rules of war their place in the order of battle became sidelined to something only a freeborn would be given …. Thus hampering any future military operations if an enemy with vehicles who utilized them to their full extent (such as in the IS).
The same could be said of the Elemental – bigger stronger able to carry larger weapons – sounds like a good idea – but once you have seen a Gurkha in operation you will realize the error of that statement.
Then there is the issue of support weapons that should be able to take out an Elemental – OS Missile launchers, high cal. Sniper rifle, mobile lasers, ….. eg. A Hellbore Assault laser (man portable and supposed to take out a vehicle) … what about all the different recoilless rifles (many of which are based on 20th Century tech.)?
And yet where were these types of weapons during the invasion for infantry support? Sooner or later a massed companies of infantry should have been able to decimate any elemental assault – the range / destruction difference would decimate the elementals in most terrains.
And yet where are their support vehicles to assist their main combat units whist they are in the field / garrison units i.e.
Recovery Vehicles
Battlefield repair gantry vehicles
Ammunition transport
Coolant vehicle
MASH
Ambulance – Ground and VTOL
Logistics support / transport etc.
Thus the only way the clans could support their units in the field is to move their dropships and use them ……
Thus the IS would have designated every Clan Dopship as a primary target for their commando units ….and as a consequence the invasion has multiple issues …..
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The reality of the keeping soldiers fighting, leads to morale issues as well as a complete breakdown of your military.
Officers will have the best interest of their enlisted personnel at the forefront of their minds – but this is why they signed up and took their pay – and this is why they have spent so much time and energy training ….. Rotation on the front line as well as R&R still exist? …. Or do infantry units now require an embedded crisis councilor with every unit and maybe we can all sit in a circle and sing kumbaya?
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What is the point of making mechs?
Yes what is the point of having them if all the military is going to do is use orbital bombardments and nuke everything in sight?
The holy trinity is still in effect when it came to their designs, the mix of – firepower, movement and armor – a Mech is supposed to be designed to go into environments Vehicles could never be able to go into their maneuverability should have been far in advance of any vehicle considering their jump jets as well as their ability to submerge into water, they are also supposed to be able to work in the most extreme of environments from space (on a moon) to high and low temperature worlds – they were supposed to contain a massive array of electronics (but somehow never made it into the game) – they were supposed to have weaponry far in advance of any vehicle – and they were supposed to be easier to use whist in the field to achieve military objectives ……
As for one person operating a mech – there should be more two seat varieties out there when – if they ever decided to include electronics into the game (advanced recon ‘mechs) / as well as for training mechs ……
However there is also the need for a good crew chief / and a crew to maintain the Mech and keep it armed and armored – on base and in the field that must be taken into consideration.
Where are the Clans infield maintenance crew and how do they get to the front lines if they do not have any vehicles?
Sorry to say but the games issues really needed to be fixed 30 years ago!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/16/20 05:30 PM)
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ghostrider
05/17/20 01:52 AM
66.74.60.165
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The clans DO have vehicles. They have had them since the exodus and have upgraded and created new ones.
I can see the developers not wanting to have them in the forefront, as it shows just how poor mechs can be, once the players see that they were set up with some very exploitable quirks. The no heat from missile or ballistic weapons was a mistake that still bites them today. LRM/SRM carriers put to shame the firepower of a lot of mechs, and with the half weight launchers, it does even more shaming. Only the armor was a saving grace for facing them. They were very lightly armored.
Even with Ferrous Fiber, they are still relatively lightly armored, until you start halving their launcher weight. Now you have more tonnage to add more armor, as well as increase the number of launchers on it. The weight of the AC holds it back as a weapons system, but still more effective on a vehicle.
Not sure the clans used the dropships for everything. Maybe shuttles, but even that sounds a bit much. In atmosphere aircraft should be part of their forces, though they would probably let them remain on their own, just to watch how 'pitiful' they are.
Might want to join the military and serve a few tours in a combat situation before insulting soldiers like that. They do put their lives on the line. But no human can be under fire 7 days a week for months on end. It is even worse when the enemy isn't a stand up fighter. Those that just snipe you, makes it that much worse for nerves.
This is one set of insults that needs to end right now.
The entire argument given a while back pointed towards just that. If you can keep the enemy from your world, what is the point of having thousands of mechanized units to guard it? Police to keep the peace, but for the main defense, space assets are far better then ground forces.
This is why they had to nerf everything they could, to prevent this concept from catching on. I said it before. They should have left warships for dead. No matter what you do, you can not logically make them any different. Less powerful, and the costs would make you look elsewhere. With being so powerful, you basically run into the last man with one becomes the greatest threat to all. Both sides are right to argue their point, yet there is no real way to say the other is wrong.
And one more thing. Removing nukes from the game destroys the history of the game. It stops most fights from getting as far as they did, or on the opposite side, doesn't stop the invasion. The Sea Skimmer water boat's fluff says it all. They used a tactical nuke to destroy a dam in order to stop a Kuritan force from reaching their goals. Not against the forces themselves, but a dam holding back water that flooded more then what the nuke could do.
I dislike the use of them, but there isn't any way to sterilize the game in order to take them out, and not have major issues. So before you scream they have to be gone, do a full run of what the IS would be like, hell, the original SL would be like if they wre never used.
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Requiem
05/17/20 04:15 AM
1.158.188.5
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The clans DO have vehicles. They have had them since the exodus and have upgraded and created new ones.
And yet, during the invasion, not one was seen on or off the battlefield.
Thus showing how limited the Clans Battlefield tactics were - in the absence of any support vehicles the Clans are limited to very quick battles only – draw the Clans into any extended combat and the lack of any logistical support vehicles will prove their ultimate folly.
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….they would probably let them remain on their own, just to watch how 'pitiful' they are.
These warriors are supposed to be Clan who adhere to the Mongol way of life. For them not to engage proves the Clans have no courage in the face of war …. Their culture is built upon the belief of proving your combat worthiness, to not fight is going against Nicholas and all the traditions and heritage of the Clans.
They (the Clans) will have no choice but to fight until one side or the other lies defeated at the feet of the other.
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But no human can be under fire 7 days a week for months on end.
Consider the Germans in their bunkers on the front during WW1.
Consider the durations of war throughout the 20th Century – many were in a state of war for many years - WW1 and 2 and Korea for example – and some decades - Vietnam is a very good example of this from Japanese – French – American …..
This is what I was stating – there are periods on and off the battlefield as multiple battles are fought but the wars can go on and on, year in and year out …. and until one side is victorious their soldiers will remain fighting the good fight …..
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space assets are far better then ground forces.
Naval units …. Yes …. Mobility is the key any naval engagement.
Static satellite defenses ….. not so much …. Just stand off if you have a longer range and use them for target practice.
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They should have left warships for dead.
Quite impossible ….in any war scenario where there is a sea present there will be a naval unit.
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Removing nukes from the game destroys the history of the game.
Creating a gizmo that makes them obsolete will in no way destroy the game – in all games there must some rules and this is one that should be included - no WMDs. If you want them in your game then leave me out of it!
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there isn't any way to sterilize the game in order to take them out, and not have major issues.
The majority of the 4th SW seemed perfectly fine without them.
So why not keep them out of the game?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/17/20 04:05 PM)
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ghostrider
05/18/20 02:40 AM
66.74.60.165
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The issue is that most of the clans view vehicles as targets, not real weapons of war.
Outside of the game, I get the feeling a lot of things were not really thought of before needing more things for the next TRO. A few of the tanks can NOT be laughed at like the books suggest. They are more then capable of taking out larger mechs in a single volley.
The focus on single combat is the excuse for this. You can't brag of kicking butt, if you have a team running the equipment with you.
The clans have been known to leave their own units behind to be destroyed when they think the units are inferior. The Naga states that in the fluff. And since a true clan warrior would not be in an atmospheric craft, the pilot would have to 'prove' themselves in combat to gain their respect. So freeborn only flying them. Get the hint?
The only reason why soldiers of the WWI and WWII era were in combat so long, was they had no real reserves to rotate the fatiguing front line for some rest. And those were normally on defense, where the enemy could pull out units to put in new ones, yet you couldn't do much, otherwise, you could probably retreat.
The statement of nukes being removed destroying the games history wasn't about the playing the game, but the actual story lines past. As it was said further in that paragraph, the SL would not have been in such sad shape at the end of the Amaris war. Hell, Amaris may not have even won that one, give the fact that a lot of good troops were killed from nukes and orbital bombardments. The first war was even more devastating. So remove nukes all you want. Just make sure you remove it from before your storyline starts. Otherwise, that logic fails from the start.
And so you know, having them in the game, and using them are two different things. They are part of reality, and will never be removed from the war arsenal of anyone. Using them is the key here. Sadly, there will always come a time when someone deems they are necessary. Not saying for their goals, but try to make it sound like they are saving the world.
I could take this one step further and say you can't use flamers on anything, especially infantry and civilians. So flamers should be outlawed and remove from the game. Torture, assassination and other things follow close behind.
The DC uses chemical weapons on one world to killed the defenders. So WMDs were not perfectly left out of the 4th war.
It is a bit sad that saying nukes need to stay out of the game, yet it is the ONLY VIABLE way to counter clan warships. There are other ways to do so. Expensive, but there.
Now the bs of the game comes down to how sensors work. The clans spot everything and can hide from anything until the player or IS gets ahold of the tech, then it doesn't work. Well not until the story needs a force to remain hidden until a specific time, then the full cloaking devices come out. Is it the IS pilots that produce the extra heat that the clans equipment tracks? Or maybe the trueborns are right and the freeborns smell so bad, they are picked up when hiding?
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Requiem
05/18/20 04:53 AM
1.158.188.5
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The issue is that most of the clans view vehicles as targets, not real weapons of war.
I agree, it does seem as though a lot of things were not really thought through …..
Within the Clan Home Worlds battles were fought within a glorified arena – circle of equals – and the PGCs were used as the Tru-born’s clean up crew, post battle, hence there was little to no reason for a dedicated support vehicle crew.
However within the Inner Sphere if you try to fight in the same way you did in the Clan Home Worlds the clans ‘Mechs should run out of ammunition given the duration many of the Inner Spheres battles can last especially if they have to fight through multiple waves of vehicles and infantry – be rained on by artillery and bombers – and if the IS ‘Mechs decide to give ground and choose a new battle location. And then there is the issue of casualties on battlefield – in the absence of any dedicated MASH unit how do the Clans look after their wounded if they (The Clan’s ‘Mechs) are who knows how far away from their Dropship Support?
This just does not make any sense whatsoever – even into the far future of the Clans this has yet to be properly explained!
The Clans ideas regarding racial superiority are a major hindrance to their front line forces and create issues with their strategic ability / access to different units that would have assist their invasion!
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The only reason why soldiers of the WWI and WWII era were in combat so long, was they had no real reserves to rotate the fatiguing front line for some rest.
Units were rotated on and off the front lines as required, it is not as if units were permanently on the front lines.
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Just make sure you remove it from before your storyline starts. Otherwise, that logic fails from the start.
Conventional ordinance can be just as devastating as a nuclear weapon especially if your conventional military forces are in vast numbers. Consider Japan / Germany – fire storms caused by regular ordinance Vs those killed by nuclear – in some cased the fire storms appeared to cause more deaths and devastation than the nukes.
To me there needs to be line in the sand that the game will not cross – WMDs, Torture and what Caleb did should be removed from the game – they have no place in it. As this is fictional why not have an unofficial rule that these will never be included in the game for the sake of the aesthetics of the game?
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The DC uses chemical weapons on one world to killed the defenders. So WMDs were not perfectly left out of the 4th war.
Was this even really necessary?
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It is a bit sad that saying nukes need to stay out of the game, yet it is the ONLY VIABLE way to counter clan warships.
And yet what are IS warships – and naval battles for?
As for sensors and clocking systems - when were any real examples of these placed within the game when many of the ‘Mechs sensors have such a pitiful hex range?
These are just more examples of where technology needs to be reconsidered with new rules as a means of making the game a little more believable (and hopefully fun).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/18/20 12:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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I want to say part of the reason for the clans lack of concern for 'cleaning up' after a fight comes from not having to salvage items to keep their units working. And the fact that they don't worry about the next fight, as there isn't anything really close to a campaign fight. Granted, there may be a large number of vehicles that all clans use, it is just they were not showcased to have. Some sort of jeep or other small transport had to be used, as they could not use their mechs to travel around all the time.
During Ulric's trip after a battle he was walking thru the debris with Phelan and a few others, including elementals outside of their armor. From the looks of it, removing and getting back into the elemental armor is not easy or quick. So just popping out to do a simple walk would mean they took it off at a secured location and headed out. Transport would be required.
They would have to have vehicles near fight sites. The story of Nicolas's death said the medical rush onto the field to try and save him. Something you can not do without proper equipment. And a medtech isn't known for having the stamina of an elemental. So the fight had to cover quite a bit of area.
Actually, the use of WMDs can be a motivator for players to hate the users. Not using them is one of the 'hero' aspects that players have.
But tell me this. What sort of motivation do you have at times? Disarm a normal bomb, or a nuke? Which is more dramatic?
Same with Chemical and even biological items. Even the nuclear reactor going critical, and your team has to prevent it. Without nukes, nuclear reactors would have to be pulled from the game. As suggested with the HPG, if it can be used as a weapon, it will be.
And for history, how do you deal with the end of WWII in the game? No nukes means no drops on Japan. That also means that fusion power isn't likely to have come about. As stated with the end of the SL, and the beginning of the 1st war. They would be so far different that there is nothing that would be close to canon.
The cloaks were meant as sarcasm, as only specific missions seem to even come close to being able to hide from the clans. Yet those same mechs, when captured, didn't have the same abilities. The clans could still hide from them. But it was said to show that the writers didn't follow their own rules.
And a swipe at the clan 'honor' of the challenge. Some didn't issue it, and those that did, tended to do so, just before the attack. So basically, you forces were ready, but you didn't sneak attack. You basically jumped up and said surprise before firing, not just firing then letting that result tell them that you were there.
The game basically says you take quite a bit of time to move troops to a battle field. Even a meer 50 miles from you. At a medium 60 KPH, it takes about around an hour. More then enough time for an enemy to destroy a target. But to attack an HQ with most of it's forces around a world, means even longer times, even with airlifts. And this was well known to the clans. Part of their strategy was to do this. So where is their even fight? Even bidding, means you still have closer to one on one then what is suggested.
And star on lance? 5 to 4?
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Requiem
05/18/20 11:17 PM
1.158.188.5
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Yes I do agree the Clans must have a vehicles.
The issue is the Canon Clan Invasion never included them, hence ….
Any salvage / field repair becomes a major issue;
Though this is not the main point, this relates to the battlefield medical facilities – the Clans have a complete absence of battlefield medical vehicles and personnel – whereas the IS have a massive assortment of vehicles, and personnel, assigned for this exact purpose – thus if they (the clans) are unable to evac. Their people in a timely manner their chances of surviving a battlefield injury are reduced to next to nil.
This therefore has a massive compounding issues – if they (the Clans) have a higher mortality ratio due to battlefield injury this therefore requires of the Clans a greater number of replacement personnel – however given the Clans have a Sibko system this therefore requires of the clans to carry a greater loss of personnel for a longer time period (in comparison the IS) due to this system. Thus over time the Clans cannot replace numbers, thus their units must decrease in size / be absorbed into other units to maintain cluster formations – That is over time the number of Clan units (Clusters) must shrink in numbers due to a high mortality rate (no MASH units) and a decreased replacement rate (sibko) faster than anyone ever considered before – especially when it relates to Elementals in the field – as in the absence of vehicles they must be carried out by another elemental or on the back of a ‘Mech – and given the Clans predilection to being a Warrior Mongol Society how often would you ever see this during a battle? Ans: Never!
Thus the Canon Story now has one huge pot hole in it that cannot be explained!
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So just popping out to do a simple walk would mean they took it off at a secured location and headed out. Transport would be required.
No evidence of this – and would any engineer be allowed to create armor that was not simple to ingress and egress from considering the clans engineering? What if it is as simple as the helmet lifts back and the chest armor drops forward – maintaining the armor in one piece and it is as simple as just lifting yourself out of and into the armor.
So it only takes a minute or two to get into and out of the armor at best?
Thus no vehicle necessary.
Plus consider the Clans Dropships – how many have vehicle slots in them and were included in the Invasion?
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They would have to have vehicles near fight sites. The story of Nicolas's death said the medical rush onto the field to try and save him.
Nicholas died in a circle of equals – a clan equivalent of an arena – it would set up like a Nascar event with the warriors fighting within and having a dedicated medical team close by. But in the IS where an entire planet becomes a circle of equals there is no medical team close by except for those within their Dropships as they never assigned MASH units to the Invasion!
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the use of WMDs can be a motivator for players to hate the users.
Sorry but I will not allow them in my game under any reason – if others want them in their game this is their choice.
Medical – yes I can accept this but this is as far as I am going to take it as it is not even required for energy purposes throughout the IS when you consider how a Mech engine works – you just need a larger one for energy production for a city and no waste products!
In the past they were used and yes we need to accept this but in the future cannot we say we have evolved past the use of such vial weapons?
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The game basically says you take quite a bit of time to move troops to a battle field. Even a meer 50 miles from you. At a medium 60 KPH, it takes about around an hour. More then enough time for an enemy to destroy a target. But to attack an HQ with most of it's forces around a world, means even longer times, even with airlifts. And this was well known to the clans. Part of their strategy was to do this. So where is their even fight? Even bidding, means you still have closer to one on one then what is suggested.
And star on lance? 5 to 4?
And yet when you factor in the Infantries sensors have a far more distant range the number of infantry personnel / cost of sensor sweets are low thus they should be in vast quantities (with regards to a regular RCT unit) this therefore demonstrates the Clans lack of stealth – with a capable commander she/he should be able to spot them far in advance and make a preparation for a counter attack quickly. Then when you factor in the number of vehicles / conventional aircraft / VTOL craft / specialist anti-mech and over time anti-elemental infantry the idea of an even fight swings wildly into the favor of the IS, especially if they can maintain a good piece of land for their defensive positions.
This is the problem sensors on both sides should be able to be detected far in advance of their units – it then just comes down to the man on the ground and her / his ability to relay information in a timely manner back to HQ so that they can act on that information.
Then there is the issue of spotter planes – they can remain at an altitude above the clans ground weapons and they can just circle around taking a video image to be sent back to HQ – that is until they are chased off by a Clan fighter or are destroyed by a fighter. Which again shows the Clans lack of tactical ability by not having them on the field.
But if the Clan has access to a warship in orbit they could just watch and relay information with impunity – thus the game becomes something like a chess match where everyone knows everyone else’s moves in a timely manner. Thus the duration of the battle now increases exponentially as it deviates from blitzkrieg to something else.
This is the problem – there needs to be a more information regarding sensor suites and counter sensor suites – and where all the information is coming from on both sides. As such the opening moves could take a very long period of time as if the Clans use Blitzkrieg too often the IS will be ready for it with a massive artillery and bomber runs over them rendering their units all but scrap metal.
This is why there needs to be many maps – One set for battle in space, one set for battle in atmosphere, one set showing the entire world and how and where you troupe are moving around the world and another set for when combat is finally joined.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/19/20 02:24 AM
66.74.60.165
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First off, the only salvage a clanner would take is clan equipment, and even that might just be destroyed. It has a 'taint' of a failed warrior.
No matter when the books say, the clans are not immune to wastefulness. They lose mechs on occasion and very rarely have I heard of a warrior waiting for a replacement. Without issuing a trial of possession for someone elses.
And as said before. There is an explanation on why things are done, though they aren't ones that some take as good. The story needed the clans to have weaknesses, so the developers decided this is one of them.
One of the pictures showing a new elemental being fitted for their armor was something similar to the old full plate mail. I am thinking you are saying they should be like the power armor in fall out 4. Just a little more sophisticated then turning a valve. It may be the picture was not a real representation of the armor. Wouldn't be the first time.
So the complaints about the lack of realism for the game developers, saying they don't stick to reality, was just whining, if you try to remove nukes and such from the game. There is no reality without having the threat. And that is the key as said before. The threat. Might as well remove assassination and things like patricide and such. Maybe even going as far as just having slap fights to solve who wins. The perfect story already falls apart. For your game, that's fine. Just stop with the bagging on the developers for not having PHD's In crapocide to fill in all the little tidbits, which seems only a very few even noticed.
I know why the game doesn't have sensors set up. There would be NO ambushes possible or sneak invasions if they actually worked right. The game would absolutely need spacecraft to fight their way on, and in retreat, off the planet. Raids would not be something that would happen that wasn't RCT sized. So that removes it's big allure. Taking a lance on a raid, and being able to survive.
Though the 'new' things they come up with in the novels, does show just how little the game has covered things at times. A simple spotter plane is more then capable of locating the enemy, yet for some reason, defenders, and even attackers never had them before some of the books brought them out. I am not even talking the high tech things like drones, or the SDS, but a simple ultralight that is used to spot the enemy ground forces.
And the need for 3 maps, like suggested, is the very reason the game didn't go that route. It was meant for stompy mechs to fight stompy mechs. Not have to deal with all elements of going from jump point to grounding, then use your stompy mechs, then try to get away. This is far to much for more then a majority of people that play.
From what I know, Warhammer doesn't have you fight like this. You do space, or ground. Rarely both.
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Requiem
05/19/20 05:24 AM
1.158.188.5
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The story needed the clans to have weaknesses, so the developers decided this is one of them.
And yet not once was this “weakness” ever seen to be causing a problem for the Clans.
During the Invasion ….. No
Post Tukayyid…………..No
Post Wolf / Falcon War..No
Is there even one instance where this [sibko – replacement personnel] could be considered to affect the Clans within the Canon story line?
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So the complaints about the lack of realism for the game developers, saying they don't stick to reality, was just whining, if you try to remove nukes and such from the game.
They can be removed from the game and still keep the realism! – they can become an obsolete weapon system.
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the game doesn't have sensors
Then why have BAP and ECM etc. – why have radar – why have thermal goggles?
If this was the case then every time the Clans detected vibro-mines must be disregarded and they must walk in oblivious and blow up just like everyone else.
In all reality given the level of sensor sophistication within the Battletech universe when compared to what we have now the entire worlds movement of every vehicle should be able to be analyzed for its type of vehicle and tracked by both sides.
Thus both sides must have a massive amount of counter electronics get around this – but this will not help if there is a camera in a satellite or on nearly every street pole sending real time images to both traffic management / police (face recognition etc) / military all at the same time that are even now in effect in most of the first world.
Thus if you want raids etc. First, Kill off all satellites, Second, Use an EMP pulse in the upper atmosphere to turn an entire area dark for a period of time or kill of an area’s energy production / storage (battery) facility (just remember that the battery system will be shielded so that even if the power facility goes off energy will still be available – backup security measures are in place). Or something similar to this!
If current technology can track individuals from one camera to the next over a large area utilizing facial recognition why can’t it track infantry and military vehicles at the same time – and relaying it onto a map of the area in real time? So unless every camera is destroyed the defensive commander will have a very good idea as to what is going on in real time.
So if you want reality in the game here it is ….
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A simple spotter plane is more then capable of locating the enemy,
Boomerang Spotter AeroProp Turbine – Introduced 2888 – TRO 3025 and TRO 3039 – the Locust of the sky ….
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Maps - And the need for 3 maps, like suggested, is the very reason the game didn't go that route. It was meant for stompy mechs to fight stompy mechs. Not have to deal with all elements of going from jump point to grounding, then use your stompy mechs, then try to get away. This is far to much for more then a majority of people that play.
And this is the very reason why the game cannot be considered to be a strategic game.
If the only maps that are allowed are those used for battles then the game might as well say that everyone within the Battletech universe utilizes a circle of equals to fight in – it limits the game to a set area and a set number of units – it does in no way allow for any unit to conduct large scale strategic movement at any time, thus limiting the game to a fraction of what it is supposed to consider.
Forces fight their way from space to the ground and then on the ground - in the absence of multiple maps the game becomes little more than that of a chess match with all the set pieces in places prior to the first move.
For the game to become something more that this it will require multiple maps.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/19/20 01:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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The weakness of a true lack of reinforcements were seen. Just not acted upon. The scientists secret army saved the Falcons for the most part, while the Wolves pissed off every one they could, to make the competition to destroy them so intense, they would be able to survive the low bids for a long while.
Out of game, the developers had to do something in order to avoid removal of the clans, so they seemed to just fall back on the not wanting to put the nation thru another war so soon. Like it or not, most didn't really care, as they were having more chances to gain clantech and fight, or be, a clan unit.
Obsolete weapons system? Unused is the best you can get. Nukes will never be obsolete. But it is your alt. Just remember that this is where realism leaves the game.
The advanced probe and ecm were made for the close encounters. Specific for detecting things like mines and shut down units for the AP, but yet look at the range. The ecm is the same way. And those are extra weight and crits. Not even the sensors normally used.
But I can understand part of this. They didn't seem to think about this when the game started. Otherwise, stealth armor would have come out then, and EWS versions that help it work better would have to be out.
Also, if the sensors had the real range they should, physical combat should not happen unless out of ammo, or an ambush at touch range. Then the range of the weapons would come into the spotlight. When you can see a target 10 miles out, why can't I hit it? Missiles today, none cruise missiles, can hit targets much further out then 10 miles. A few are 150 miles, and that was something from 20 years ago.
Heavy? Definitely. Something a good military base should have? Absolutely.
The cannons on tanks today can hit at ranges that make the game's look like bb guns.
And another kicker. The game can see small asteroids and such that are the size of a mech within 250k miles, such as the moons orbit here on Terra. Yet, they can't find something the size of a warship in that distance?
Now computer tech being 'lost' should mean the gunners skill should be able to use 'iron sights'. It has been suggested it is done from time to time, but the shots from at least the AC's should have better range then they do.
Story line needs work, but getting the rules straight is more important, otherwise, it continues to keep needing to be reworked.
SDS is a major changer, and makes you wonder how the hell anyone got into a well defended system to attack it, like Terra should have been. Warship losses would have been horrible, and the dropships accompanying them? The only hope is to use as many ships as you can to run them out of ammo. And yet, they were supposed to be guided from a single point. ECM not work here?
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Requiem
05/19/20 05:35 PM
1.158.188.5
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The weakness of a true lack of reinforcements were seen.
Where / How? …. How can “a secret cabal of Clan Scientists who hold a deep hatred toward the warrior caste’s hegemony over Clan culture – and in particular the warriors’ dictates regarding the worl of the scientist themselves …..” (refer wiki – The Society) …. have any effect on the Clan Sibko system, circa 3030 (the generation prior to the invasion) to 3072 (when they came out of the shadows and attacked).
Sorry this is not an example of any Clan having an issue with replacement numbers during the Clan invasion. Thus as stated above the Clans were provided with a war in which their “weakness” was no weakness at all – it was completely ignored so that the Clans would be allowed into the IS with no issues whatsoever - in a war, that when analyzed, cannot be considered to be anything but a poorly written and completely unbelievable farce! Thus making everything that came after it an extension of this farce of a war.
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Out of game, the developers had to do something in order to avoid removal of the clans
And in so doing betrayed their own characters – Hanse Davion, Theodore Kurita etc. – the Houses they represent and the gameplayers by creating a history of the game that is completely eschewed to one side over another and that when analyzed proves the farcical nature of this timeline – a policy that has continued on into the future battles and peoples …..
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Like it or not, most didn't really care, as they were having more chances to gain clantech and fight, or be, a clan unit.
What is it that I want? A good story line that is fun to be in, that provides me [and hopefully other the game players] with many exiting areas to be in and that can be considered a believable history ….. and yet what were we given, a one dimensional game with a history that is completely farcical and unbelievable – that requires people like me to create their own universe because they find the canon version to be lacking in everything …..
Look at the additions I am postulating to enhance the Clan war ….
Creating small attack groups to fight the Clans in the Deep Periphery – against their support bases and their logistics fleets;
Fighting with the partisans in the Clans rear;
Becoming a renegade PGC unit and fighting the Clans as a mercenary unit;
The Battle of Camelot Command – providing the IS with naval units thus more naval battles – thus removing the black hole that is the response to Turtle Bay;
Becoming a treasure hunter – going into the lost worlds of the former Terran Hegemony to find lostetch – information that can be used by the Psy-Ops teams to show the Clans (warriors and civilians) how far they have fallen from their noble SLDF origins;
Attempting to expand the role of the infantry within the game to something more believable;
Attempting to bring scanners into the game – where they should have been from the start;
Attempting to bring a sense of strategy to the game by implementing more maps to the game – an enlarged Battleforce game;
Larger more involved battles with the majority of the Houses units – battles that do not just involve Mechs that involve all units;
Larger and more involved battles with individual worlds Home Guard units;
A more believable war in re to Logistics and replacement personnel;
Thus removing the farce (phony war) that is “the year of peace” and the stupidity that is Tukayyid.
Also ensuring the game and the characters within the game are acting in accordance with their back-stories ….
And yet they should have been able to just buy it in the form of refit packages from IS manufacturers and the Clans should have been kicked out of the IS – so that the war should have moved to the Deep Periphery if any true semblance of the war should have been observed – rather than that of the farce that was provided.
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Just remember that this is where realism leaves the game.
In my opinion, no, humanity has finally evolved to a point where we no longer need them – Reagan, Yeltsin and Gorbachev came very close ….
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BAP and ECM Ranges
Close encounters – at this range line of sight has a greater range ….
Even with sensors mechs should be able to make it all the way in to an extremely close – there should be ways of keeping them hidden from all sensors to enable an ambush to occur – or given the terrain.
And yes the entire computer system’s ability / weapons systems in the game needs a massive over haul and yes this will also require a massive overall of the existing rules of the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/19/20 10:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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Did you read the first paragraph where I said the lack of reinforcements were seen with the next small sentence saying it wasn't acted on? Or was that an entirely different thread? Seems like that has been happening a lot.
How did they betray their own characters? By not having them rush out and kill chunks of their military trying to remove the clans before they knew enough to be effective? In the alt, they have resources popping out their back sides. In canon, they did not have thousands of Vengeances, with millions of fighters to fill them. Nor did they have the ability to move forces from a lot of worlds to send to the clan front. The fact they removed so many units between 3039 war, and the clan invasion wasn't something liked, but needed to be done to allow the story line of the clans to evolve. Otherwise, what was next? Another round of the FC fighting the DC/FWL/CC in canon? Or allowing the FC to finally win?
Both were getting boring. The Jihad was the worse story arc to come about, with the RoTS being the 2nd from what I have seen of it. So what?
No clans meant no Katherine rising to power. So make sure you think on that before pushing this as well.
What you want, and what most of the rest of the players wants shows the developers followed what the thousands of people wanted, and ignored the few that didn't like it. The story isn't the reason why the game has been doing so badly recently. It was the lack of advertising and such. The story isn't completely ignored, but it wasn't the reason most that I know of started and kept playing. I would like to hear someone other then you, say they don't play the game at ALL because of the story. Most don't play the story past a certain point. I would love to have things actually make logical sense, but don't expect it, as the developers are not going to be spending the time to try and do that. New content needs to be out, so they can make money. New wars, new developments, new units. If it is just two worlds or the entire galaxy, this is the basis of the game. Fighting between two sides. Solaris can only be done so much. Death matches get old after a few dozen times for some. Not sure about most, as it seems it is the main way to test their custom units.
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ghostrider
05/19/20 10:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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What you are suggesting isn't the issue, so much as saying the game bites, and only your vision is correct.
You keep saying you don't understand, but that seems more like you don't want to even consider things beyond your vision. That is fine for you.
Saying logic needs to prevail, yet ignoring it to bring out your vision is doing the same thing you accuse the developers of, with one major difference. They own the game, even though you think buying the books means you own it. As said before, if you did own it, then it would have been done your way in print.
I do have to ask these questions, and it may get me banned for a while, but do you really think the U.S. and Russia banning nukes would delete then from history?
Some countries have nukes NO one wants them to have. Nukes have always been used to try and neutralize the lack of numbers against other entities.
With the treaties of reducing nuclear weapons would never end in the complete destruction of all of them. Those people making money off them would not allow it. And leaders listen to them, since they tend to control making other weapons, which all nations will never be rid of. It is a very vicious reality of life.
The sensors, outside of specific circumstances, should see a mech unit coming in from across 30 miles of open ground. Yet they don't. A fleet of dropships should be seen by detection units especially when the detection grid has constant contact with each other, so the ships would have to break laser coms to get by them. The entire thing about the jumpship emergence was only added in after the clan invasion happened. Yet this should really show up on planetary sensors, as all of them would have some sensors scanning the skies on any world that has importance to the house lords. Some pirate points are an issue, as they are a few days away, but they would still know something came in. Pirates themselves, should never make planetfall on worlds like the capitals, yet do.
But it has to be this way in order to allow the chance to raid someone. As said before, I don't like it, but accept it as something that has to happen if you want a game to play.
I suggest you play Aerotech/Battlespace or what ever the newest books are and stick with that. The land battles shouldn't exist, and since logic is the only way forward, this would be keeping with that.
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Requiem
05/19/20 11:07 PM
1.158.188.5
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They own the game, even though you think buying the books means you own it. As said before, if you did own it, then it would have been done your way in print.
Marketing – Target Market and understanding your client base.
If the product is substandard the volume of sales decreases, new clients also decrease, profit margin decreases, the ability to create new products decreases
If the marketing team cannot create a simple focus group to understand their base clients the product and the corporation will cease to exist.
As is there needs to be radical shift in marketing and the core product’s likeability otherwise …… how many products from Jihad onwards were available and are considered interesting?
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do you really think the U.S. and Russia banning nukes would delete then from history?
No, there will always be someone who will want them.
However as this is a game and it is set 1000 years into the future cannot I make a supposition that they have finally been removed from all arsenals? …. They turn the game on its head and have no real purpose other than to make people hate the game, so get rid of them.
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sensors
The issue with planetary sensors comes back to their socio-industrial rating
A – high amount of sensors; B onwards the amount and sophistication of sensors decreases to none at all when you get to periphery worlds etc. …..
BattleMech, Aerospace fighter etc. – there must be a minimum amount of sensors – they are discussed within many areas and many books and yet when it comes to the game they just evaporate – either they are in or out – and if they are out come up with a valid reason as to why the IS and the Clans cannot use them?
Then we have infantry sensors that have a vast range – how can this be?
There needs to a universal standard of sensors and how they work and how they can be jammed and what that jamming means to the defenders.
As is there are no sensors whatsoever …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/20/20 04:21 AM
1.158.188.5
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How did they betray their own characters?
What are the arch types when you consider Hanse Davion, Theodore Kurita and Takashi Kurita at the bare minimum they are all professional warlords who have a high understanding of military strategy …
Then have a look at the statistics offered by the Canon history …
Consider how many worlds were defended by just militia and mercenary forces
Consider want was done due to Turtle Bay Orbital Bombardment - NOTHING
Consider the % of each houses regular military was assigned to the Clan Invasion – Kurita 28%; Steiner-Davion 7.5%
Consider what was done in the year of peace to prepare for the 5th wave – NOTHING
Time to realize that this does in no way represent that of a military genius – what we are provided with is a complete sham of an invasion and by extension the leaders who are supposed to be orchestrating the Defense of the Realm.
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In canon, they did have …
As per the 20 year update
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
The DC had an unknown number of Vengeance carries as well as an unknown number of Achilles Class Dropships – they did have the capability of producing a massive number of naval lasers
The DC and the FC have a massive number of nuclear weapons
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Nor did they have the ability to move forces from a lot of worlds to send to the clan front.
Then consider the size of the forces used in the 4th SW – and the number of jumpships that were available then – and since then how many new Jumpships have been produced?
Then consider the economy of the IS and well as the population of that of the Clans
Then consider the IS academy system Vs the Clans Sibko system
Then consider the fact that it is given that over time the Inner Sphere IS ABLE TO REVERSE ENG. CLAN TECH!
When all this is combined it is quite clear that the Clans are nothing more than just a minor nuisance – at 4 or even 6 Clans given the number and type of forces they have assigned ….
They do not have any effective Garrison troops
They do not have any real logistics system – As the Clan Home Worlds are 6 months distant
They do not even have a dedicated MASH system!
This entire story is now a joke!
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Otherwise, what was next? Another round of the FC fighting the DC/FWL/CC in canon? Or allowing the FC to finally win?
My Alt has proven that the story could have been far better than given – if just given a little more thought!
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No clans meant no Katherine rising to power.
I would not make that bet – if she is determined she would take the throne one way or another.
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The story isn't the reason why the game has been doing so badly recently. It was the lack of advertising and such.
If I was to make a guess – cash flow is the issue.
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New content needs to be out,
And the many suggested new scenarios I have come up with that could be placed any were in time? E.g. my archeology units?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/20/20 11:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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In the history of the IS, how many worlds were garrisoned only with Militia? How many had hired mercs guarding them? This isn't new. It was happening long before the clans got into the picture.
A lot of time it happens due to one of the leaders getting ready for an offensive against their neighbors. Gathering forces is the term for it.
Now as this is complaining about canon, the alt can't be used to argue it... The CC was still dangerous, as well as the FWL. It was possible, even likely, that the FC was readying for another strike at the CC, or even the FWL. Given the fact that the FC lost so many troops in 3039, they moved things around to better cover their territory.
What was done to Kali with the gas attacks? Nothing really.
What was done to Gibson (I believe) when their rebels started using Davey Crocketts against WOB? What ever happened to the entire time where the IS nuked worlds to death?
Katherine was not really punished at all for trying to usurp the FC causing so many deaths.
Where are the retaliations to all the chemical weapons used in the history of the game? Assassinations?
Very close to nothing.
In the end, the bombardment of Turtle Bay got the Jaguars dead. It was a major factor in which clan to take out. Oh yeah. Not instantaneous so not considered.
And again. The year of peace DID have things being done. The IS was fortifying their worlds near the front. Now just because you want economics in the game, yet seem to fail to understand what a budget is, isn't the developers faulty.
Still haven't seen a single write up on Defiance, a single company, much less the entire IS. So that basically says you have no real idea on just how much, or how little each house has for what, such as taxes and what it is spent on.
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Requiem
05/20/20 03:18 PM
1.158.188.5
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In the history of the IS, how many worlds were garrisoned only with Militia? How many had hired mercs guarding them? This isn't new. It was happening long before the clans got into the picture.
And yet how many worlds per the Clan Invasion were garrisoned with just militia and mercenaries? Over half of all of the worlds captured ….
Look at Wave 5, after the year of peace. Clan Wolf alone was given over 30 worlds - This makes no sense whatsoever!
Hanse Davion – the author of Operation Galahad and Operation Gotterdammerung and Operation Rat – and yet no defense whatsoever for the Clan Invasion?
Then consider the FC utilizing such a minimal amount of its overall forces to engage the Clans – 7.5%?
Consider the 4th SW – August – December 3028 – The Lyran Commonwealth attacks 70 worlds on their own Then when you factor in Operation Rat and those of the DC March border?
What the ……., this is just ludicrous.
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The CC was still dangerous
Er, no they were not …the CC were down to 26-30 Regiments and a good percentage of those were Mercenary of questionable loyalty. The idea that the FC would attack the DC and not the CC in the war of 3039 has also been proven that the entire premise cannot be considered a rational decision – it is just TPTB saving the CC when in all reality it should have fallen!
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Given the fact that the FC lost so many troops in 3039, they moved things around to better cover their territory.
The FC have a 9 to 1 ratio when it comes to the CC – they could have easily moved 50% of their forces (140 Regiments) against the Clans and still have enough forces to hold their borders.
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What was done to Kali with the gas attacks? Nothing really.
Black May was in 3062 – she was tried and convicted in a Star League Court and was exiled to Highspire.
So what has this to do with the Clan Invasion 3050 ….?
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Gibson
The planet in the FWL?
So what has this to do with the Clan Invasion 3050 ….?
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What ever happened to the entire time where the IS nuked worlds to death?
Where and by who did this occur circa 3050? …. Or is this now abut the Jihad era?
So what has this to do with the Clan Invasion 3050 ….?
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Katherine was not really punished at all for trying to usurp the FC causing so many deaths.
The Lyran people and the Lyran Military allowed this – thus it is LEGAL
Second what deaths? No one can prove she killed anyone, not even Victor.
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Where are the retaliations to all the chemical weapons used in the history of the game?
4th SW or Jihad era? So what has this to do with the Clan Invasion 3050 ….?
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Assassinations?
Show me a time line in the Battletech Universe when assassination was not seen as a means of effecting political change?
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In the end, the bombardment of Turtle Bay got the Jaguars dead. It was a major factor in which clan to take out. Oh yeah. Not instantaneous so not considered.
Correct – samurai dictums would require an immediate response. Takashi Kurita would demand nothing less.
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And again. The year of peace DID have things being done. The IS was fortifying their worlds near the front.
And yet the entire wave 5 cannon history would say otherwise, especially when it comes to the Wolves!
Where is even one world that has multiple RCTs on it within the advance of the Clan Invasion?
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Now just because you want economics in the game, yet seem to fail to understand what a budget is, isn't the developers faulty.
Please elaborate further …..
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Still haven't seen a single write up on Defiance, a single company, much less the entire IS. So that basically says you have no real idea on just how much, or how little each house has for what, such as taxes and what it is spent on.
Still have yet to receive your idea of how to stop the Clans other than that of the Canon history ….
As for Defiance - why? when no matter how I determine the figures, no matter how I believe the accuracy of the figures are they will never be accepted by any other gamer as the underlying assumptions I have considered will never be accepted by any other gamer - they will be just be ridiculed. Plus they need to be determined at a specific time period and not an open ended statement of determine this……
For example – how many employee levels are there – how many people within each level – what is the remuneration level for each level – what is the superannuation considerations - what are the sick leave, long service leave, annual leave considerations – do I use American, German, Australian accounting standards and norms to determine these figures …. There can never be a standardization of thought when it comes to making a determination ….. so why bother providing this information?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
05/20/20 08:36 PM
71.47.151.234
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The idea that the FC would attack the DC and not the CC in the war of 3039 has also been proven that the entire premise cannot be considered a rational decision – it is just TPTB saving the CC when in all reality it should have fallen!
It was showing that the universe is more than a war game run by real world players. Canonically, the Fourth Succession War generated powerful objections in the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth as being a naked land grab and over-stretching the Federated Sun's merchant stellaris. The attempt to end the Capellan Confederation in the mid-3030s showed the Lyrans and St. Ives Compact were not interested in simple conquest.
The Succession Wars, for all the high words about finding a new First Lord, had actually seen the Free Worlds League, Lyran Commonwealth, and Federated Suns abandon any pretense of actually trying to be First Lord in the early 2900s. Max Liao and Takashi Kurita might've had other ideas in 3025 - Max was certainly delusional enough in the 3010s to think he had a shot of being First Lord - but the other Houses had stopped that game long ago.
Hence, Hanse's land grabs weren't universally well-received by his own people, let alone his in-laws who felt they were being used to stoke his ego.
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the CC were down to 26-30 Regiments
They were down to 26-30 front line BattleMech regiments. The Capellans still had lots of militia units, while the Lyrans and St. Ives Compact were opposed to a second land grab from the Capellans.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
05/20/20 09:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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Where does it say they had the ability to make massive numbers of naval lasers? Is this in the same book that said they needed radio actives to make fusion eninges, which was part of the Grey Death series?
Still refusing to believe that the destruction of the FS economy is how they managed to get enough ships to move the forces to hit the CC? So the destruction a second time to send forces to hit the clans was the only viable solution? And that isn't saying just how many ships were destroyed in the 3039 war. Where were all those jumpships from the 4th war at? They didn't have use for them at that time.
The numbers defense isn't going to cut it. X number of troops to destroy Y number of troops means Z numbers of troops will survive for the next fight. It just doesn't work out that way. I have to doubt you have ever played the board game, as any more then 3 battles will show that it is not so set on who wins. One simple die roll can end it. In war, one single soldier starts running from a difficult battle, and you could very well have a rout on your hands. Even though you have more soldiers with you then the other side has.
The alt has NOT proven it is a better story line. It has given some new ideas to things, but as written, still have the same logic holes as the old story line. The only thing you really did was time travel back with information on what was coming and changed it to counter that. There is no real reason for the IS to have done anything other then what they did. But that is the issue of players reading the GMs or the adventure pack. And I think the canon story does have a lot of things off. The simple lack of any casualties from vehicles seems to be missing, as well as not accounted for in battles. As said, the invisibility the clans have when nothing works when the IS gets ahold of it. Unless Comstar can hack into every sensor network that is watching for jump signitures. And I do understand, they are not going to be that numerous.
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ghostrider
05/20/20 09:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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Katherine didn't have the push to remove Victor without the clans. She used his fight against them to get a foothold, then destroyed her siblings confidence. Had Victor not be out of contact, that would not have happened. The best she could do, would be a grass roots revolt, but that runs counter to her facade. Killing him, or really being able to frame him for their mother is the only thing she could have done.
New ideas only work if the situation supports it. There was no real way the FC could pump out 10 RCTs at the time of the 4th war if the books were correct in factories being hard pressed to just keep up with losses. Other then depleting other units to move them, but the new mechs would be an issue.
With this, suggesting the IS, or just the FC, pump out dozens of even just mech regiments isn't possible. Not without destroying their own armies as shown above.
Having the clans start picking up speed after people learned just how little the houses could do against them makes more sense then not. The panic that resisting them is futile and will only get you killed. There is no way to stop them sentiment starts to form. And with Comstar helping them redirect things like suggesting they are on the FWL border for an example, instead of forming an arrowhead force to take down Tharkad didn't help. The black boxes for canon isn't the rescue you wanted, as they didn't have that many working. So arguing otherwise is pointless.
Also something you are missing is the fact that the entire 4th war was pretty well planned out, so they pretty much knew what, when, and where things were going on. With the clans, they weren't sure if they would find them on world, in space, or get a message saying the worlds they left to hit the clans were now being invaded. But you have all that information and rewriting history to counter that.
The CC was still dangerous. They could very well invade or at least destroy units guarding worlds that would need to be replaced, or worse, putting the torch to those worlds. If you need food, you need to ship it in. Well if they destroy the food at the loading docks, then what? You only have so many ships to move stuff, and you said strip them all to send forces to the front.
But this ties into the Defiance thing. You claim your numbers are better, but so far, not a single thing was put up. You say if you did, then someone would ridicule them. So is that the reason why the developers never did so? Because people would say there is no way that could work, or that it would require more?
One company, and no numbers to even back it up. No budget on how much made or paid out. So why should we believe your numbers are correct when you don't know the developers numbers?
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ghostrider
05/20/20 09:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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Assassination being used to effect change in politics. Nukes can be said to do the same. Stepping on someone with a mech can be the same. Even a frontal attack can do the same. Assassinations are used by the weak to try and force others to do their bidding. Hide in the shadows because your not popular and strike. Your ideas may well be why no one wants you in charge.
A few rare times, the person who is the worse is in power, but normally it is the misguided that think they are the solution to all.
Again. If the DC reacted like you say they would have, the DC would have destroyed all their soldiers now, to repent against all defeats in the history of the DC. So they would not be around even during the original SL as they were conquers before then. I could assassinate the coordinator, broadcast it, and run for the periphery. In your view, every single unit would chase me there, trying to kill me. So the FS/LC would have been able to walk right in and take all the worlds while removing the supplies from those chasing me. And yet the DC Samaria honor didn't object to using poison and nukes to pacify a world.
Oh yeah. The DC was the first to invade another realm using nukes. Great honor there. Sneak attack to boot.
So the books saying the clans changed tactics as started going after softer worlds, then hit the main concentrations isn't sinking in. Or maybe comprehension of this is the issue. Or maybe this is just to argue. Canon says they skipped heavily defended worlds to hit the lighter guarded ones, then turn back to take out the surrounded worlds they passed.
Back to Defiance. How about starting when the SL left, and use your spreadsheets to bring it up to 3025. According to you, that should be easy.
This is just one company. Not 10's of thousands of worlds, moons, asteroids and such.
As said. Without any numbers, the argument that canon is wrong falls completely flat. There is nothing to compare it to. And by the way, Defiance isn't the only industry on Hespertus II. So that might explain why they didn't terraform or set up the world to be independent. They did not want to foot the bill for others to benefit from it.
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Requiem
05/21/20 01:18 AM
1.158.188.5
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Cray,
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The attempt to end the Capellan Confederation in the mid-3030s showed the Lyrans and St. Ives Compact were not interested in simple conquest.
Reference is made to my post within the forum RE: The Capellans’ Fall War.
Remember 1st Year Engineering Mathematics – Triple Derivative Rules as this proposition / theorem just does not work?
What we have is a function of (house lord’s military and political ability / mental stability) + function of the Houses’ (military + economy + Logistics + social will + ……) which equals becoming the First Lord of the Star League as the idea the dream is dead does not hold water when you are down to three Great Houses!
Hanse Davion – I have yet to read anything that would contradict my belief that Hanse would give up on the idea of becoming the First House Lord to kill off an entire revival House
Militarily – the forces required to kill of the CC are less than that of the forces used to attack the DC – more damage to your forces – more time it will take to rebuild – a higher cost.
Economically – The GDP of the CC is about 5 to 6 times that of the area the FC is projected to acquire from the DC.
After working within a bank for many years (The Lyrans) the risk / cost / benefit analysis indicates that the CC is far more valuable (that is their value is higher) – for less risk – the Profit expectation of taking the CC is far more than that of the DC
That state of the IS circa 3039 – yes the DC were gearing up for a war but if they were not attacked would they still try to assist the CC – in all reality they would just let the CC be killed off and redouble their production lines as they would know they are next!
Sorry to say but this is an indefensible statement.
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Hanse's land grabs weren't universally well-received by his own people, let alone his in-laws who felt they were being used to stoke his ego.
If Hanse attacked and killed off the CC – his approval ratings in the Capelan March would be at 100%
As for his in Laws they are bankers – the wealth generated by taking out the entire CC would be astronomical in comparison to that of taking out a part of the DC – Money Talks when it comes to the Lyran State, just provide land grants / reconstruction projects to the right people and the media and the right people will be on board with killing off the CC.
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The Capellans still had lots of militia units
And yet when have militia ever been a factor in this game? – there were never included in any of the wars up to date so why now bring this up?
Case in point the Falcons attacked Twycross – population 1,237,735,000 circa (3076) and a social- industrial level B – and I am expected to believe they were defeated by the Jade Falcon Guards – 60 Mechs, 150 elementals and no air support …. Really? A Lyran world – who’s parent house loves super heavy tanks and has who know how many conventional aircraft….
How many other worlds were attacked and their population and socio-industrial level are known so that if you make a rough calculation even at 3% of the population you can clearly see a world of this size would take a Galaxy or more to crack!
What about all the worlds who’s populations are over 7 billion that were somehow captured during the invasion?
Either they are all out or they are all in they cannot be both.
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Where does it say they had the ability to make massive numbers of naval lasers?
TRO 3057 Dropships, Jumpships and Warships – page 204 205 System Defense stations – DC – 20 can be made every 3 months …. That’s 80 a year for one plant alone in the DC – so switch over from static to PT Dropships – that’s 80 PT craft armed with naval lasers per year.
The destruction of the CC provides the FC with more forces and more jumpships
Thus when the Clans arrive a greater figure than 7.5% can be assigned to the Clan Invasion given the number of Jumpships / Units involved at any one time frame in the 4th SW QED
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The alt has NOT proven it is a better story line.
Really? There are far more aspects to my alt than there ever were with the Canon.
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Katherine
Victor is not an obstacle – all she needs to do is prove to the people of the FC he is unworthy and he will have no choice but step down.
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There was no real way the FC could pump out 10 RCTs at the time of the 4th war if the books were correct in factories being hard pressed to just keep up with losses.
True – but they could produce 2 a year easy even with loss through normal operations – so by 305o expect 20 new RCTs.
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Having the clans start picking up speed after people learned just how little the houses could do against them makes more sense then not. The panic that resisting them is futile and will only get you killed. There is no way to stop them sentiment starts to form. And with Comstar helping them redirect things like suggesting they are on the FWL border for an example, instead of forming an arrowhead force to take down Tharkad didn't help.
Sorry but I am a complete loss – panic sets in initially yes but panic can evaporate easily when you put 5 RCTs onto a single world! As for ComStar if they get caught …… well we all know what happens to quislings.
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The black boxes for canon isn't the rescue you wanted, as they didn't have that many working.
Again like many things in the Battletech universe there are no numbers to support this.
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The CC was still dangerous. They could very well invade or at least destroy units guarding worlds that would need to be replaced, or worse, putting the torch to those worlds.
And in so doing give Hanse all the justification he needs to invade and kill of the CC.
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So why should we believe your numbers are correct when you don't know the developers numbers?
Proven my point … even without putting them up they are being ridiculed! No …
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The DC was the first to invade another realm using nukes. Great honor there. Sneak attack to boot.
December 7th 1941 – Pearl Harbor.
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So the books saying the clans changed tactics as started going after softer worlds, then hit the main concentrations isn't sinking in.
Book and page no please.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/21/20 01:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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Hitting an enemy that has been known to hurt your nation, the DC was the right target. The costs, if the invasion had succeeded, would have been far better, then to let the DC control fights, as they invaded your worlds. So figure that into your numbers calculations to figure out things.
The title of First Lord died a while back. Those living today don't covet it like you think. The only time I seen any idea of First lord come up before the 2nd SL, was when Hanse was thinking about what to do about the Luthien invasion.
Despite what you might think, Hanse could have hurt the CC before the 4th war if he really wanted to. Smaller sustained invasions comes to mind.
Not sure why the idea that not all people will be part of a partisan effort to remove an enemy, and not be quislings isn't sinking thru. Might want to go to the middle east countries that were 'liberated'. More then a few want to return to the old ways and some want to move into a more open society. That isn't all or nothing. The U.S. itself has the same things. Some don't want to get out of the middle ages where money allows you to do what you want. Most seem to want to get away from that sort of garbage.
Now add in your figures that for each CC world taken, it would need that many more units to control. Use your own figures when saying the clans couldn't control worlds, then apply it here. Having the entire CC would NOT have gained them that much in units, as you are forced into a concentrate weakness scenario. Most of the CC's people were for the chancellor, if not for the person on the throne. This would not change in a generation.
How long as Brittan been in charge of the U.K. yet still have issues with certain independence groups? How long have them been part of the U.K?
Also having so many units in the army is countered by how many worlds need to be guarded. Something that won't come to light when the only way of thinking is all forces sit in one spot, then fly out to where they are needed. That sort of thinking it why a lot of resources are not available like they should be. Mines being taken out is one such major thing. Don't have to hit the factories if you can bleed the enemy of the resources to build anything. Look at why the original SL was formed by the Hegemony. They were low on resources. So they had to do something.
The Battlestat says there are 5 built to date, with another 20 that can be built within the next three months. It does not say they can build 20 every three months. Skimming material is where the information is being confused with facts given in the game. They actual statement says that since they started building the NLs, they have 25 in storage.
Aspects don't always mean better. As said, there are more then a few things that should have happened. Other things are just backwards and has some holes still in them. I could come up with thousands of things to 'improve' the game. But I know most of them would do no such thing.
If the IS wanted more worlds, they would have push out into the periphery. Costs prevented that somewhat, as well as a lack of some resources. But to build a new world is much easier then to rebuild one that has generations of traditions ruling it. Also, trying to fix a lot of the garbage left, is even more of a problem. How many of the factories or even just homes, have alternate enterences that you don't know about, or bombs hidden to take out workers as well as the building itself? If canon wasn't so badly off, then some of the ideas would work. Wolfpacks are not easy to even start, much less run multiples in the size needed to do much. Destroying your realm in order to have the jumpships to do so isn't a smart thing. And costs come into effect, which seems to be overlooked in all the ideas of doing this.
Again, complaining about canon then saying the alt changes that fact, doesn't work. Alt is not canon. Canon is not alt. Some how saying that 5 rcts being dropped on a world is why the clans acceleration in canon isn't possible is completely wrong. The canon verse did NOT have multiple RCTs they could put together to form invasion forces. 160 something regiments in the FC at the time of the invasion. Remember you harping on that saying they were nerfed. And no. They could not remove forces from worlds in bulk. That would cause riots and opportunities for pirates, as well as other realms. It is not as simple as demanding the enemy stop raiding you. There are more then a few times the raids were by nobles hitting other nobles, using pirates as a cover.
So you will not stop thinking in absolute terms. Then Victor should have killed his sister the moment she started showing that she wanted it all, and would do everything to achieve it. It would also mean the FC would definitely hit Terra to punish Comstar for their making sure the CC survived. The whole fact that even the FS population, including those in the Capellan March were against the invasion as it was. The Draconis March may well have revolted, as it meant money and supplies going into the old CC territories, which meant coming from places such as theirs. The FS/FC is not a dictatorship. It is Feudal, and that goes down further then just Prince/duke. Big companies can very much tell you to stuff it, and get away with it. Any sort of punishment would be seen by the rest as a means of trying to take over them all, and create a large issue. Once you get away with it with one company, who is to say you won't do it to theirs? There are laws to prevent this.
So you have no proof that your numbers support the ripping on the developers for not making a full economic encyclopedia for every world since the formation of the SL. Arguing that your number are better the canon, but yet you don't have any. Sound ironic?
Attacking the developers saying they should have done this or that without actually knowing what they have, which is implied greatly throughout the books, sounds more like just bagging on them for no reason other then being bored. There are more then a few flaws in the game. Forgotten or wanted forgotten things that should have been main stream, but weren't. Not keeping an eye on the writers, so they wouldn't come up with things that weren't possible in the game. The HBS game has the Argo becoming canon. Yet the developers did all they could to keep out a dropship that could dock with a jumpship and have another docked to it. And they mention the SDS system on one of the worlds, which has the program for running such a thing. This includes drones that attack you as you try to enter the base. ROBOT vehicles that strike. No human crewed ones, but pure robotics. Something the game has said isn't possible.
Where Pearl Harbor was a sneak attack, it was not meant to be done that way. Time zones and the ambassador were at fault for the declaration of war not being given before the attack. And there weren't any nukes at Pearl Harbor. Just normal ordinance. So not glowing aftermath here. But that in itself tells you that the Samurai honor had changed before 1950. So why do you believe they would follow the code made up in 1500 would still be absolute in 3000?
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Requiem
05/21/20 07:08 PM
1.158.188.5
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Hitting an enemy that has been known to hurt your nation, the DC was the right target.
By this logic … then the FWL and the CC are also, “the right target”.
As for Costs – hitting the DC are far more expensive (almost twice that of the CC)– and as for the Net rewards, at the end of the day - the CC come out ahead of the DC by multiple times. And in so doing provides the FC with far more ….
There is no justification for hitting the DC other than petty vengeance – however the removal of the CC provides the FC with resources and status to become the next First Lord …
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Smaller sustained invasions comes to mind.
Yes he could … but the longer this goes on the more the chance for interference from external parties – the FWL could have taken the CC (if they could ever get their act together – and at the same time increase the size of their military) – or ComStar could have interfered (again) – It would have taken all this time to repair the damage from the 4th SW and get the FC economy back on track – 3039 is probably the earliest time the new FC military is ready to go to war as one military.
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Not sure why the idea that not all people will be part of a partisan effort to remove an enemy, and not be quislings isn't sinking thru.
Becoming a quisling – please explain what benefit(s) becoming a Clansman provides over that of remaining with the current system?
Please explain the benefits of becoming a part of Totalitarian Government has where you will never be allowed into the higher ranks / government because of where you were born and how you were born – you will never be allowed any say in your life as you will be expected to obey every order with no matter what – any disobedience will be met with the harshest of reprisal – and remember their system gets rid of all monetary benefits – and puts you into a caste system that you and your children can never leave …. – and they remove children from their families at an early stage in their life ….. so please explain how this system is of any benefit ….
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Now add in your figures that for each CC world taken, it would need that many more units to control.
How many “extra” units were required for the top of the CC that was captured during the 4th SW?
As wouldn’t this determine how many “extra” units would be required for the lower half?
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Having the entire CC would NOT have gained them that much in units, as you are forced into a concentrate weakness scenario.
Initially – battlefield salvage – minimum of 2 -4 Regiments maybe even more ….
Over time many more once you can begin repair actions – plus consider all the production facilities such as the Raven and the Cataphract will now belong to the FC ….and in addition how many Jumpships does the CC have that now belong to the FC?
Question how does concentrated weakness come into this when the FC have over 270 Regiments – the DC have 99 and the FWL only have 66 (as per the 20 year book), as is it is nearly a two to one scenario?
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Most of the CC's people were for the chancellor, if not for the person on the throne. This would not change in a generation.
How did the people in the top half react when they were liberated?
Please go back and re-read the House Liao – the average person had no real appreciation of their Lord – fear kept them in line as well as meeting their quota ….
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How long as Brittan been in charge of the U.K. yet still have issues with certain independence groups? How long have them been part of the U.K?
Who are the separatist groups in the top half that were liberated by the FC? ….. the Peoples Liberation front of Judea …. Sorry the Popular Front …. Splitters!!!!!
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Look at why the original SL was formed by the Hegemony. They were low on resources. So they had to do something.
And yet look at the worlds that were once part of the Hegemony and are now part of the Great Houses – if these worlds were so barren of resources why is Hanse Fighting the DC for them in the war of 39 and why are the DC so eager to defend them? If they have no resources then they are worthless …. Wouldn’t it be better to reduce your size – thus you can protect your logistics lines and you can concentrate your forces to save what remains?
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It does not say they can build 20 every three months
Mine says they can create 20 every three months!
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I could come up with thousands of things to 'improve' the game.
Then please begin ……
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Costs prevented that somewhat, as well as a lack of some resources.
And yet exploratory groups are still exploring beyond the periphery ….
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Wolfpacks are not easy to even start, much less run multiples in the size needed to do much.
Disagree … it is just a question of reorganization of existing forces ….
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Destroying your realm in order to have the jumpships to do so isn't a smart thing.
Wh ever said I was doing this? – with just 75% of the number used in the 4th SW you could damage the Clans beyond repair and have enough to keep the economy going …. However the real problem with regards to Jumpships is that there are no numbers whatsoever only a ‘perception of a number’ so that no one could ever agree ….
Plus the idea as to the number of naval yards that can manufacture / repair jumpships, as given, is a laughable joke when you consider the size of the fleets the Star League created and maintained …..
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complaining about canon then saying the alt changes that fact, doesn't work. Alt is not canon. Canon is not alt.
Correct …. This is why a rewrite is so necessary ….. to fight in such a system, as given, has no real appeal for me ….
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Then Victor should have killed his sister the moment she started showing that she wanted it all, and would do everything to achieve it.
Correct …. And yet victor has never shown that level of commitment or ruthlessness ….. this is why he needs to be put down …. Please read Machiavelli’s ‘The Price’ which is based upon the House of Borgia from 1455 onwards ….
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It would also mean the FC would definitely hit Terra to punish Comstar for their making sure the CC survived.
Canon ….. shadow war ….
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The whole fact that even the FS population, including those in the Capellan March were against the invasion as it was.
This is like saying the people of the Draconis March would revolt if their forces invaded the DC. Sorry, no this statement has no validity.
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The Draconis March may well have revolted, as it meant money and supplies going into the old CC territories, which meant coming from places such as theirs.
Only the most short sighted, uneducated would believe this one!
With the fall of the CC the entire FC economy would be in a Bull Market an upswing in the market and as such this will increase the size of the military, in a very short time, so that the next invasion would kill of the DC.
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Big companies can very much tell you to stuff it, and get away with it.
And yet isn’t this the reason why one of the FC largest Companies CEO was requested to join the infantry here he died for the glory of the FS?
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Pearl Harbor
Actually if you really know the facts – you would know there were multiple major blunders ….
First, US military intelligence were intercepting and decoding Consulate information traffic – it they had been intercepting an decoding Fleet Traffic it would have been a far different story and if they had had someone putting all the dots together rather than just filing everything away (and refering back to make links in the information) there would have been a different story; and
Second, Kimmel can in no way be blamed – what occurred in Washington that day (and prior to that day) that led up to a telegram being sent rather than a phone call is the true culprit – how could he have acted any differently if he was never provided access to the ‘Magic / Purple / JU 25’ decrypts? And the man in charge of ‘Magic’ why didn’t he phone call Hawaii like he was supposed to have done? – why did he send a Telegram and not mark it so that it was a priority message? And Why was this never discussed in the majority of the investigations into Pearl? – Refer to Harold Rainsford Stark and Richmond K. Turner.
McCarthur was provided access to all the decrypts and he was still caught flat footed - many hours after Pearl - and nothing happened to him .....
Says volumes as the judicial / media system ....
Also how can the Samurai Code of Honor be held to blame when the snafu was in Washington?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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