ghostrider
05/22/20 12:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not everything is about the bottom line. The economic impact to the FC to finally put the DC on the defensive would pay back plenty, even more then the CC would. It would shut down a lot of raids and invasions. As stated before, the CC would actually cost the FC quite a bit. The man power needed, as the CC population is worse to control then the DC population, though this is not saying they would be easy. But then it seems only money numbers will prevail.
The main reason the FS economy was hurt so badly, was not the interdiction so much, but the fact so many ships were conscripted to do the war in the first place. It says that in the NAIS books. The interdiction only caused chaos among the ships that weren't conscripted.
Becoming part of the clans argument seems to stem from not really understanding things. Why didn't the people rise up against Katherine? Some of the benefits outweighed the loss of freedom. Why did some resist her? Some realized what she represented wasn't something they wanted.
Each person has their own reasons for not being part of a revolt.
For those on clan worlds, that include, but not limited to: fear of (dying, family punishment, torture, and being completely enslaved), promise of increased personal power, getting rid of things like certain crimes, their own government. There are a lot more, but not wanting to be killed is a big one. Revolts start when a large mass is angry at once. As most of the people took the clans as just another house invader, most didn't do much. But all or nothing seems to be the only thing understood. Life isn't that easy.
Note. Not fighting an invader is not being a quisling. Actively helping them violate your laws is.
Now you are starting to think. How many troops would be needed to pacify the entire CC? More then were trained to deal with it. The issues between the FS troops and the CC population was so bad, Melissa stepped in and removed those units for Lyran ones. And what do you know. The people calmed down. The DC was the big baddie on the block, and represented the biggest threat. Once the CC fell, the DC would have to hit the FC with everything it had, otherwise they would be destroyed. This is a case of your scenario of a lack of warships requires nukes. And they would use them. The CC pop might just buy some to use on the occupation forces or resort to things like poisons, though the CC was already bombing FC troops.
Forcing the DC to submit to the FC would have gave the FC that one step closer to the First Lord position (if they actually wanted it).
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ghostrider
05/22/20 12:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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Concentrated weakness comes to mind as you are spreading over a larger area, and there is no guarantee that the factories you take will remain operational. Also, once the CC government falls, it would release the radicals to start a whole campaign to use anything they can get, in order to strike back. The people of the CC are more likely to resist the FS, then the people facing the clans. So this is similar to the invasion in this aspect. The numbers of troops is opposite.
So you are finally saying the canon said the people were happy, and want to put that forth, yet don't want to believe a lot of other things canon says, because it goes against your vision?
There were a lot that were happy to have some of the leaders removed. But they were still not happy with being part of the FS. But it did bring out an issue that wasn't addressed in the future. Those that were happy to be out from the Liao political scheming, didn't rise up and counter the mess caused when Liao started coming back. And more then a few resisted out of loyalty to the government, not the leaders in position. They would have been treated like second rate citizens under the FS as well.
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ghostrider
05/22/20 12:38 PM
66.74.60.165
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Why would you fight for things that might be devastated? Really? In order to remove an threat from an enemy, you have to destroy their troops, but also deny them a place to strike from and hide to recuperate. The worlds weren't worthless, but going by the SL issues of a lack of resources, they should have been worse in resources then they were. Another ooops moment that someone forgot to read their own background. Or maybe the fact the SL information came out AFTER the original books were done. So another retcon that didn't do their own research.
Reorganizing forces to start wolf packs? As this is canon that is being discussed, the numbers you have, but haven't bothered to show us don't exist here. The IS didn't have enough ships to move things around as they really needed, so did what they could with what they had. Now reorganizing what they had, would mean leaving some worlds to fend for themselves, as the few ships they were getting supplies from, would be gone. Refer to the FS economy from the 4th war. Some of the failed defenses and invasions came from a lack of ships to move the forces. And as stated before. Space is huge inside a star system. You have the two main jump points that would have most of the civilian traffic coming in, but will that stop the enemy? Doubtful, as you would need to do that in all systems near the border. Now trying to stop the flow of supplies. What system do you go into and when? It is doubtful you will be able to just sit in each system with a force large enough to hit everything. The entire history of why raids happen is mainly this, but only planet side.
75% of the jumpships used in the 4th war. Why would you think the sneak attack on the CC would have happened if the military had access to that many ships? Most of the people support the games implying that ships are not numerous. Only one persons has stated that is not what is going on. If they had that many jumpships, then why worry about wolfpacks, and use them to actually invade and keep worlds, changing the borders for good? This is where your little numbers might actually have some traction.
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ghostrider
05/22/20 01:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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The first prototype entered service in 3056, and by 3057 five had been deployed in orbit. BBP Industries informed the Draconis Combine Admiralty that they could produce twenty more in "the next three months"[2] ,
This is from the wiki. It does not say 20/3 months consistently.
The fixing needs to start from continuity and keeping in line with their own rules. It's fine you don't agree with the story and such, but saying it needs to change when a majority of the people that play it, aren't that worried about it is the key. Again. You don't like it, then don't play it. The belief that the only viable solution is what your vision has is fine for you. I have yet to meet anyone else that thinks yours is the future or past or alt. The big picture isn't something they worry that much about, as each game has no bearing on the story. They do their missions or death matches, and try to have fun.
It may well be time to remake the entire rule set and run with it, like D&D has done. The patchwork of rules hinders the game as more things were added and conflicts with each other. but they already lost more then a few customers that will not buy anything like the house books from them again.
So a ruthless tyrant is the preferred leader? Those are normally the ones that everyone wants gone. Interesting, as the clans represent this far better then even the CC or DC has. And yet they are bad because they are ruthless tyrants? Something doesn't add up with this.
No intel shadow war. A full fledged invasion of Terra with multiple RCTs. Removal of all the leaders of Comstar would happen.
The populations of the marches that would protest the invasion of a foreign nation is not the entirety of the march. The all or nothing attitude is getting in the way of understanding anything again. Some would love it. Normally they are ones that have suffered from the enemy. Some think they will gain power from it. The people normally don't care about another nation until they are hurt by them. Without the constant raiding and invasions, it is very possible the people would more to status quo, and maybe even not caring they are there. But this isn't along your vision, so won't be even considered.
The military had several signs of the impeding attack on Pearl Harbor. They were told to ignore them by the higher ups. So the entire 'history' of Pearl Harbor is so messed up, perceptions are on biased information.
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ghostrider
05/22/20 01:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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With this, I do apologize to anyone of Japanese descent.
This is NOT suggesting you are dishonorable thieves striking from the shadows.
It is meant as an argument for in game purposes.
As with history, many good people get screwed when they are forced into actions they may not agree with.
So again. This is not meant to say you are horrible people.
Just wanted to make sure this is understood, and not some personal attack on Japanese people.
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Requiem
05/22/20 07:08 PM
1.158.188.5
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Not everything is about the bottom line. The economic impact to the FC to finally put the DC on the defensive would pay back plenty, even more then the CC would.
Everything comes down to the bottom line and cost / benefit analysis ……
Reference is given….
Alt. History Operation Rat Revival – The Capellan’s Fall War and the new FC Capital World.
To the Post Dated 06/08/8 at 04.11 AM
DC
Cost –
75 FC/mercenary ‘Mech regiments are damaged requiring repair
Benefit -
FC are looking at a gain of approx. 40 worlds two Battlemech factories / 5 various vehicle manufactories / one aerospace factory / food / precious metals – unknown amount of jump-ships – unknown amount of captured ‘Mechs etc. during the war. – overall this war is just a change in the border only.
CC
Cost –
40-50 FC/mercenary ‘Mech regiments are damaged (requiring a reduced amount of repair)
Benefit -
FC are looking for a gain of approx. 100 worlds three battlemech factories / 4 various vehicle manufactories / two aerospace factories / three jumpship / three drop-ship / food / precious metals etc - the entire remaining CC economy – near to all of the former CC jumpship navy – a large number of captured ‘Mechs– So, the entire CC is gone – therefore a massive change in the border.
Additional Benefit –
Hanse Davion and the FC go down in history as the First to ever KILL OFF ANOTHER GREAT HOUSE.
Question – how difficult was it for the FC to control the former CC people of the top half? How often in the game does any world complain about the change in government – case in point the Clans – we are told there was partisan activity and yet no real damage was ever recorded within the canon game …… so that doesn’t count unless you adopt my Alt. Universe concepts.
As for the interdiction – How many years ago did this cease? Thus by 3039 the economy is now restored to pre 4th SW / Interdiction levels – thus he can order another war …..
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The interdiction only caused chaos among the ships that weren't conscripted.
Really? ….. when Jumpships (like ships now) have fixed routes and timetables … ?
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Why didn't the people rise up against Katherine?
Because she was loved by the average Lyran citizen …. and the peers of her realm understood the game and knew how to become even more wealthy …. and the military believed in her and Nondi Steiner!
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Joining the Clans because of …fear of (dying, family punishment, torture, and being completely enslaved), promise of increased personal power, getting rid of things like certain crimes, their own government.
1. How well did the Clan’s warriors treat the people of the IS – does Turtle Bay mean nothing?
2. How about the Clan’s belief they can separate children from their families as the do on the clan Home Worlds?
3. How about the Clan’s idea of a police force – washed out elementals who dispense punishment on their Home Worlds?
4. Getting rid of Crime – sorry but the black market would increase not decrease under the Clans rule …. And with it all the other social problems when the economy ceases to work with the removal of money as a means of social distribution of goods …..
5. Their own government? How many are in these fringe groups that want to see their Government destroyed and be replaced with a Totalitarian one? ….. can I laugh now?
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Not fighting an invader is not being a quisling. Actively helping them violate your laws is.
Tell that to many of the partisan groups in WW2 …… sorry again no history proves otherwise, especially when your liberties and everything you have ever worked for is removed at the stroke of a pen ….
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How many troops would be needed to pacify the entire CC?
Still does not answer my previous question – how many additional units were required to garrison the top half of the CC when it fell to the FC? As this would answer this question.
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The DC was the big baddie on the block, and represented the biggest threat. Once the CC fell, the DC would have to hit the FC with everything it had, otherwise they would be destroyed.
Sorry again this does not hold water – the DC must now initiate a defensive stance or attempt a headhunting strategy with a three to one scenario in military might going on the offensive would be the quickest way to destroy the DC …
As for the idea of nukes …. They were only introduced into the game en mass during the Jihad era …. How well did that pan out for the game and the people who play the game?
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Forcing the DC to submit to the FC would have gave the FC that one step closer to the First Lord position (if they actually wanted it).
This is the ultimate aim of the game circa this era …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/22/20 07:45 PM
1.158.188.5
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Concentrated weakness comes to mind
As stated before, this is a long term social reorganization of the former CC society. It will take time to get things into an orderly manner – yes there will be radicals, yes there will be sabotage – however the scope of this is not as bad as suggested – plus the IS (such as the FC) have had how many centuries of experience when it comes to pacifying a conquered world(s) … they do have an active police force, military, govt. that do know how to pacify the majority of the people on any world, as it is just the radicals than you need to look out for ….. and when the economy . social standing in goods and services increases how much support will the radicals receive over time?
Next to nil – except from other radical groups wh have become disenfranchised by the FC takeover!
Plus there will always be a few that are removed from main stream society and pursue their own agenda.
Canon –
Is it believable? Can it be substantiated by previous evidence / facts? Does the Characters that are created follow a similar personality or in future books is this previous charter somehow lacking / changes wildly to fit a new narrative – thus making no sense whatsoever?
If you make a fact – Own it – do not modify or delete it because it is now an issue in the future!
If you create a character – do no tamper with it!
Military strategy / logistics etc – get it right look at real world examples to understand how wars are conducted rater than the blanket statements that are given in the Clan’s Invasion and have little to no place in reality!
If you create a culture (Japanese Samurai) – understand that culture and do not turn every culture into some westernized version that has no real reality with what was originally postulated. Since when was Theodore a Japanese name? and since when would the Japanese call their Mech a Panther (something the Lyrans world)?
Is it so hard to ask for this?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/22/20 08:04 PM
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So another retcon that didn't do their own research.
Correct …. Also remember tha number of worlds that are above and below these worlds that could be used as hidden bases and were never discussed.
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Wolfpacks
Take one RCT
Remove the majority of its armor and infantry
Increase the number of aerospace fighters
Assign special-forces infantry and Dropships
Assign a guide – former periphery pirate
Assign a research analyst / Historian
Assign a copy of every chart / information form every era your house has
(If your game still does not allow IS units to have Warships assign nukes)
Assign a warship
Train them
Send them out
Done….
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The IS didn't have enough ships to move things around as they really needed, so did what they could with what they had.
No proof of this …. Especially when you take into account the fact that during the opening days of the 4th SW over a hundred worlds were attacked throughout the IS and by the time of the Clan invasion the IS should have manufactured more!
Then when you factor in the number of IS units on the move during the clan invasion you would still be able to move 90 RCT FC worth of units easily …… if you went back to the 4th SW tactics of using all of your Jumpships for the counter attack…. Look at the invasion corridors of each clan, the majority of units used …. this is proof that there is a massive number of Jumpships that are available and were never used in the Clan Invasion War!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/22/20 08:26 PM
1.158.188.5
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Battlesats’s first prototype was 3056 not the NL55 ….
they could produce twenty more in "the next three months" …. And by extension 20 more every three months thereafter ….. (it comes down to the comprehension of the text).
NL55 – year available 2305 – where does it say it went out of and back into service with the DC Admiralty?
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So a ruthless tyrant is the preferred leader?
Compare the DC / CC / FC leaders and the relationship they have with their people – then compare this to the relationship between the Warriors and the other castes in the Clans.
Which is more benevolent – allows worlds to have their own democracies who work out their problems without any interference from the House Lord and his ministers?
Then Look at the clans and how their people are treated …..
So yes the IS leaders though being tyrants are benevolent tyrants to whom their people love ….
And yet the Clans warriors are universally hated and feared ….
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No intel shadow war. A full fledged invasion of Terra with multiple RCTs. Removal of all the leaders of Comstar would happen.
“ComStar and the Federated Suns negotiated a settlement to restore communications to the Suns that included stationing ComGuard troops within FedSuns space to protect their HPGs from further attack. Secretly, ComStar's intelligence agency, ROM, and MIIO fought a shadow war for years.” Wiki Fourth Succession War
And politically it is impossible to invade Terra during this time frame
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The populations of the marches that would protest the invasion of a foreign nation is not the entirety of the march. The all or nothing attitude is getting in the way of understanding anything again. Some would love it.
Then what percentage would protest – 1 – 5 – 10%?
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They were told to ignore them by the higher ups.
More accurate would be they had yet to realize that with cryptology you need to review previous crypts to understand what is being received currently ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 04:09 AM
66.74.60.165
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Other factors go into deciding courses of action. Something that seems to be missing from your view. If it was all about money, then you should just surrender, and avoid any costs.
So how much damage will some rebels do to the clans? Second line and garrison ones? Will that matter when the front line gets all the repair parts, and most don't even see the rear units. So any damage done in partisan actions will not be seen in front line units.
Did you not read that Hanse conscripted a good chunk of the jumpships for the 4th war? So your timetables won't exist until they are released to perform their runs. While those that weren't are trying to cover as much of the routes that the others can't because they were conscripted. How was this simple fact missed? Sorry. Your not arguing canon with canon facts. You are saying the nonexistent numbers you have, are what canon had to work with.
Sure. Everyone loves Katherine. That is why the civil war was not a civil war, but a tea party to see who was more popular. I mean there is no one that opposed her. No unit from the LC side was destroyed as they were not loyal to her. Nope. Never happened.
Turtle Bay was what? Equal to nuking a city? It isn't the first time it happened in the IS, and it wasn't the last. It was a tragedy, but not something the DC wouldn't have done to the FC if they thought they needed to Or the FC would do to the DC if they felt they had to. There were more then a few times where invaders were killing the local populace without a real cause, other then they were seen as the enemy.
Yeah. I can see the black market increasing under the clans. It isn't like they wouldn't destroy any unauthorized dropships found, as well as the jumpship used. And unlike even the CC or DC, the black market wouldn't face a trial, just a full execution on the spot when caught by the clans. So yeah. I can see criminals running rampant.
Most fringe groups would love a toltarian government to replace theirs. One big different. THEY want to be in charge.
You have never been in a war. That is obvious. Only a very few times were invaders less brutal then your own government. So since the enforcement of laws is on the side of the new leaders, you tend to avoid making a scene if you can. Partisan actions don't operated in the open. There is a reason for that. And most understand that there isn't that many that will go out of their way to support them. Why is that? Oh yeah. People don't want to have themselves and their families hurt.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 04:28 AM
66.74.60.165
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The forces that were to occupy CC worlds taken, were not numerous enough to deal with the entire CC. And with that, most of those tied to the government would do what even they could to stop the fall, as it was their heads that would roll. Kali wouldn't have been the first since 3025 to commit acts against the normal conventions. Their would have been far more duing the 4th war, including the other houses having to stop the take over. Your all or nothing scenario where the other houses would have to do everything they could to destroy the FC military before they were turned against their own. But that wouldn't happen as it runs completely counter to your vision.
Sure. The IS had all this experience pacifying worlds. That is why the Skye region as well as Micheal Hasek were trying to remove the leaders of their own realms. And Rassalhauge and others were not doing anything like revolts, strikes, or otherwise resisting the leaders. Each realm was one big happen family against each other. Might want to give Alice back her looking glass. Reality is calling.
Nukes were only introduced en masse for the Jihad? Uh, what was the Amaris war, and the succession wars doing? Throwing ice-cream at each other? WOB used them to negate the fact the rest of the IS had far greater numbers on them. If they had used them as well as the warships correctly, the FC would only be a page in the history books.
Do you understand the entire Feudal system of the past? Own a mistake? Not try to cover it up?
And yet again, the lack of understanding the DC was based on, but not a zealously followed base on Japanese culture is coming out. This is part of why the game's mechanics with the houses eludes you. Nothing is grey. It is all extreme opposites.
Now how many novels and such has someone change entirely after a huge issue in their lives? Normally an evil turning good, or sometimes the good turning evil. A pacifist turns into the avenging demon, or the demon finding out they were wrong. Oh. But that never happens ever. Sheesh.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 04:46 AM
66.74.60.165
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Why bother with an RCT if you are going to just break it up and add extra fighters? Why not just make a normal regiment with the extra fighters attached?
Assign a pirate? Only a navigator would have the knowledge to know where to jump to. And assign a warship? Really? How much garbage did you have to poop out to get just one, when none exists? Again, canon, not alt.
Go back are read how the 4th war was started. Hanse stripped the private sector of ships in order to do this. They did not magically pop out of the shipyards for this. It was taking non military ships and making them military to do so. Why does this not register? Other then trying to bait an argument, I don't see any other reason for this.
And comprehension of the text? It does not say they could make a lot more. It says they could make so many. Meaning that was it. It would slow down to make more. Maybe the inputting of what you want into the books instead of reading what is there, is why the lack of understanding or realizing what reality is in canon is so difficult. Maybe having someone else read the books aloud will help with this. They won't be putting in words that aren't there. And not leaving out ones that are.
Do you really think benevolent and tyrant can be in the same description of someone? They are opposite terms from each other. A tyrant is a tyrant. They do things that are considered wrong and hurtful. Benevolent is not hurting others if you can avoid it.
There are more then a few wars that over half the population was against a war. So trying to suggest it was that small isn't going to cut it.
And with the Pearl Harbor issue, it wasn't cryptology or anything else like that, that cause the attack to go on without any precautions. A Japanese sub was found scouting the area, as well as a few other things. There was no reason for that sub to be there, nor were the other circumstances.
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Requiem
05/23/20 09:09 AM
1.158.188.5
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If it was all about money, then you should just surrender, and avoid any costs.
And if you are a Lyran Noble (circa 4th SW / War if 3039), then yes, it is always about the money …. also, as stated above, when there is a high profit low risk margin you can expect bakers to invest …. also when provided with a long term contract (post capitulation of the CC) that can generate large amount of money …..
Also why does anyone go mercenary if not for the money?
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So any damage done in partisan actions will not be seen in front line units.
Have a look at each Clans Touman
Jade Falcon has the equivalent of two regiments of PGCs (Second Line Garrisons) – thus when it comes to the number or worlds they can garrison and when it comes to partisan activities front line units will be damaged, especially when it comes to the fact that the majority of Clan Garrisons are at a Trinary level ….
Thus yes it is quite possible to damage a large number of units who are spread over many worlds ….
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Did you not read that Hanse conscripted a good chunk of the jumpships for the 4th war?
Fourth Succession War – From 3028 to 3030
Give a year or two until all are demobilized – 3032
War to destroy the Capellan Confederation – 3039 to 3040
6 - 7 year gap, more than enough time to set the stage – however as there is a reduced number of units compared to the 4th Succession War the entire fleet is not required thus more than enough ships to kill off the CC.
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Everyone loves Katherine.
Correct, she is a far better ruler than Victor – time to get a Happi coat with Obi and join the Katherine idol cub just like me?
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Turtle Bay was what? Equal to nuking a city?
Taking things out of context? …. “How well did the Clan’s warriors treat the people of the IS – does Turtle Bay mean nothing?” …. A complete lack of empathy for an entire city, the elderly, men, women, children, infants …. All killed off via orbital bombardment with not a second thought indicates free-born human life means nothing to some of the Crusader Clan Warriors.
And how will the entire IS take this news? …. A reason to fight ….
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So yeah. I can see criminals running rampant.
Even on a world of a couple of million how is a Clan Trinary Garrison expected to police even this small number? Especially if they are spread over an entire world …..
Lack of numbers … as stated previously the Clans are completely ill-equipped to adequately garrison any world …
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Partisan actions don't operate in the open.
Who do you think came up with the idea of the drive by assassination …. Plus many other assassination tactics, all used in the open …. Plus the majority of the intelligence operations were completed in the light of day right under the noses of their oppressors …. Time to start reading, suggestion – start with the White by Mouse Nancy Wake. (She received the George Medal, 1939-45 Star, France and Germany Star, Defence Medal, British War Medal 1939-45, French Officer of the Legion of Honour, French Croix de Guerre with Star and two Palms, US Medal for Freedom with Palm and French Medaille de la Resistance for her courageous endeavours.)
PS – remember we are only using a 3% of the total population joining the resistance formula ….. so most of the people are not involved …..
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The forces that were to occupy CC worlds taken, were not numerous enough to deal with the entire CC. And with that, most of those tied to the government would do what even they could to stop the fall, as it was their heads that would roll.
First, with all of the former CC ‘Mech units neutralized, their capitol fallen to the FC, and the Liao rulers dead (and their children on St Ives) how long will those same rulers take to switch sides to preserve their status?
Second, how many in the above half of the CC revolted when the FC took over? As the lower half should follow suit ….
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Kali wouldn't have been the first since 3025 to commit acts against the normal conventions.
Kali Liao – Born 3033…… and only if you as the GM allow it!
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Might want to give Alice back her looking glass. Reality is calling.
And the Clans they never had their own Michael Hasek? Especially when the best way to get a promotion was to kill their superior officer in a circle of equals.
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Nukes were only introduced en masse for the Jihad? Uh, what was the Amaris war, and the succession wars doing?
Where did the game start….and how long did it take to create a canon book regarding the Amaris War and The Early Succession Wars? …. Any by then how many gamers were screaming about the use of Nukes in the game?
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… lack of understanding the DC was based on, but not a zealously followed base on Japanese culture is coming out.
Refer wiki – Shiro Kurita – especially his Quotes then continue reading about his successors ….. the entire ruling culture was based upon the Japanese Samurai Martial codes ….. and when you have a top down culture the Japanese way of life should have spread throughout the DC to which this should have been all encompassing.
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Now how many novels and such has someone change entirely after a huge issue in their lives?
Then please pray tell how do we go from Hanse Davion during the 4th Succession War – the Warlord who took half of the CC (in the canon history) and smashed both the DC and the FWL go from this person to become the person who – as far as the Clan Invasion went – could be said to be sipping hot chocolate and looking for his marshmallow for the entire Clan Invasion for all the good that was achieved during this time frame?
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Again, canon, not alt.
How can I do this when they never existed in the Canon story - the Fenris forces only exist in the Alt.? so yes if in the Alt. you have Warships to spare then they will be assigned ….
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Hanse stripped the private sector of ships in order to do this.
Yes he did and in so doing he was able to attack about a hundred worlds at a go ….
So the point is?
That yes he could do it again during the Clan Invasion? and assault a small number of worlds with an invasion fleet whose capacity would equal the 4th SW initial invasion fleet + as he has killed off the entire CC he can use all of their ships + as it has been a 20 years since the end of the 4th SW and 10 years for the fall of the CC – then the number of shipyards scattered throughout the FC could manufacture how many new ships in this time frame? (especially when they now know how to do it thanks to a massive information dump – thank you Grey Death Legion) = 100 RCTs + an unknown number of other RCT units ….
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Do you really think benevolent and tyrant can be in the same description of someone?
Refer - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictatorship
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There are more than a few wars that over half the population was against a war. So trying to suggest it was that small isn't going to cut it.
Within a Battletech war? Book and Page No.
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USS Ward
Keep reading …..
Especially in regards to how two of “Betty” Starks’ junior officers were under the idea that he was going to phone Hawaii as the impending attack information …. And yet rather than call he sent a telegram (and he didn’t even put a priority message code on it so that it arrived after the bombing) …. Look at Admiral Ernest king’s report regarding the Court of Enquiry over Starks actions (prior to the endorsement being expunged).
They hit the sub about one and a half hours before the aerial attack began – some even doubted the sinking until the sunken remains were found in August 2002 – Plus the US Navy ignored the sinking of the Japanese submarine prior to the attack …. One of the enduring mysteries of that day ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 03:15 PM
66.74.60.165
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War is never really profitable by the masses. Only the merchants that sell the war equipment profit from it. If you wanted to end a nation, wipe out the leader and their family. After a while, no one will step up, as they would become the next target.
Also, the FS didn't strike the CC for profit. They did it to remove a problem from their side, as well as expose the spy within the FS. It can also be attributed to Hanse striking back at Max for the double, but that would be the straw, not the main purpose.
So money isn't the only reason for wars. Greed is. Power tends to be the main focus, and money tends to come with it.
There are mercs that go professional to get freedom to go where you want, when you want. Granted that doesn't sound like something when you have to pay bills, but they can pick and choose what sort of missions they accept. Money is a big factor though.
I would suggest you read a little more, as Hanse was slowly conscripting the merchant fleets years before the 4th war. This is why the economy faultered so quickly. Each war game he held, more ships were kept that were part of those games, just like some units never returned to their normal posting. This is why the 4th war was so successful. No single or even triple worlds attacked and taken, but large chunks, as well as destroying the CC's military. No one really knew how many ships Hanse had to move troops. So there is your intel failure. All nations missed this as well as Comstar. So no. Everyone does not know every little detail about each other.
Everyone loves Katherine was a sarcastic response. If it was true, Victor would not have been able to raise anything to oppose her with. And as stated in the books, he wasn't going to, until she started destroying things that didn't need to be. Dictator turning tyrannical.
And with the bombardment, Comstar WILLINGLY continued to support the clans. The context of the strike is horrible in the reduced destruction of the IS, as well as wasteful to the clans, but it isn't unique. It also isn't something that would be the last thing.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 03:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still don't understand fear is a motivator to follow laws? No trial to twist and get out of jail. Just execution when found. And with the clans, guilt is not necessarily needed to hurt someone. In their training, they have the right to do so. It isn't a good thing, but there are plenty of things other cultures have, that are considered wrong by others. And they way the clans act, it is done to make the players want to fight them.
The strike for the partisan action is the most visible. But they just don't walk up into a command bunker and say they are looking for a way to cause problems. They don't mug the guards in public, until a strike it made.
The raids on supplies and such tend to be kept quiet by both sides.
And when you can walk a few hundred miles to get out of a country is far different then needing a ship to travel light years.
The context of Kali not being the first to commit a horrible act against people was saying that there were more then a few since the game 'started' in 3025. The use of nukes and other horrible acts were done. Most were because someone thought they should be in charge, and decided terror tactics were the best way to achieve that.
The clans had more then a few rebel against the system. If you survived, you went to the Dark Caste. One example is Trent. The warrior that gave up the location of the clan home worlds. Some would also say Ulric was one. Aidan was another. The second trial was an abomination and should not have been allowed to continue, once the Khan found out. Also, killing your superior isn't the only thing that needs to be done to be promoted. In fact, done without reason, such as outside the circle, you might well be punished for it. But to be promoted, you need to pass your trial of position, as well as removing the superior officer. That means politics, which the clans were said not to use, but used it greatly since their formation.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 03:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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So far, only you have screamed about nukes being used. Some players would use them, so the idea of the game having them isn't the end all you want to say it is. I don't agree with most of the usages, but that is not something that will stop me from playing. Now if the GM nukes the unit for no reason, then we find a new GM. It is a game. Anything is fair in love and war. I don't agree with that, but that is the way of things.
Having something based on, and being a pure zealot following it, is not the same thing. If that was the case, the LC being based on German background would have evolved far differently then it did. And they would be more likely to have revived the SL tech long before they did. But that did not happen.
Wait. Didn't Hanse die of a heart attack planning out responses to the clan invasion? And since the LC portion of the FC wasn't happy with him in charge? Nondi was the main person guiding the LC's portion for the defense of the realm. The clans were something that was not seen in the IS. Changing the way you think isn't going to happen over night. Without the black boxes, Comstar had the ability to change the game as well and did, Even with the black boxes, the message travels slower then the HPG. So conditions change between message sent, and response hits. It isn't the few hours scenario on Terra. It is weeks to months. Getting the forces together being a main issue in time.
The warship situation was in response to saying the canonverse should have done this or that. Trying to say it wasn't shows that no understanding of the game will be possible as nothing other then the vision is right. Canon is what it is, and for the most part, does make sense. Not always the way I would like, but it does do what it needs to in order to keep the game going.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 03:55 PM
66.74.60.165
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So where are the numbers to say how many new ships were made or upgraded? You say canon is wrong, but yet you have absolutely no numbers yourself to even estimate what is done.
And still using no numbers for the alt to rip on canon does not work. The alt can have super jumping Deathstars for all that matters. Saying that canon should have done so is the base root of this issue. Get away from Canon, as it is so horribly flawed, according to you, that it has to be rewritten. The only thing that seems to be changed is prediction of the future and trying to solve it in the past. Still not fixing all the holes in it. Just want to change the outcome of the clan invasion. You hate it so much, anything past the 4th war, and rewrite it all, including removal of the characters that rule.
I mean, why have a civil war? Without it, the FC could have hit the DC and got that much closer to being the prime nation for making a new League, and not doing the political bs of being first lord. They would be First Lord as the way a conqueror should be. Then go about with all the civil wars to create the conflict needed to continue the game. That would mean the FC runs the HPG network, as well as no WOB strongholds.
The 4th war had the Lyrans being cautious about the whole thing, and some in the FS didn't want the war. So maybe the entire 4th war is one that a large chunk, maybe even over half really didn't want the war.
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Requiem
05/23/20 07:08 PM
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So money isn't the only reason for wars. Greed is. Power tends to be the main focus, and money tends to come with it.
Was under the impression this section was discussing ‘in the event Hanse was having issues with his in-laws, how could he get them onside for the destruction of the CC’
The answer thus – for a Banking Nation such as the Lyrans – Money, as war is profitable for the military industrial complex as well as those that are now associated with reconstruction / security projects. As for the Battletech Universe this would also include Mercenaries.
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This is why the economy faltered so quickly
And yet this economic issue was only short term ….. as within a few short years Hanse and the FS were once more ready to initiate a large scale war. Thus the effects of the Fourth Succession War cannot be considered to be a debilitating long term issue.
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And as stated in the books, he wasn't going to, until she started destroying things that didn't need to be. Dictator turning tyrannical.
And yet the entire civil war Victor Vs. Katherine lacks credibility …
Katherine never needed to kill her mother to take the throne, just Victor, and killing him would be child’s play when he is constantly on the battlefield rather than within the palace.
Second, Katherine was constantly with her mother, her education regarding statecraft was far more skilled than that of the dribble postulated within the novels et al. Thus this idea of her ‘tyrannical’ rule has little to no credibility …
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Comstar WILLINGLY continued to support the clans
Doesn’t this strike as odd? Yes there have been some strange alliances and agendas and yet for the entire First Circuit to go along with this plan – especially when Precentor Tharkad and New Avalon were politically against Waterly – especially when she forced through Gardner Riis’ appointment following the creation of the FRR.
Only Waterly’s cronies as well as a small group that she thought she could trust must have been in on this – including Focht.
So what happens within ComStar when this becomes common knowledge or when charges are levied against Waterly by the House Lords when they are able to determine the truth? …. With every world taken by the Clans waterly’s group expands to include a new HPG station and everyone there in …. Sooner or later there is bound to be someone o objects to what they have been ordered to do by Waterly and will rebel ……
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And they way the clans act, it is done to make the players want to fight them.
Not only players but also NPC – partisans
Again – assassination, IED, Sabotage …. There is many a variety of ways to get rid of a small garrison unit … and yes they definitely “mug” guards in public if they can make a clear get away …. and no they do not need to tavel by ship to hide, the Clans do not have the manpower to complete such a search, and the use of fear will just backfire on them, as it has in so many other wars.
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The use of nukes and other horrible acts were done
Twice, if I remember correctly ….. and both events were in war settings in an attempt to destroy the enemy…..
Does the game really need these events? As far as I am concerned the answer is no. But every gaming group is allowed to have their own game structured how they want it.
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Hanse Davion
Died: 17 June 3052 and Tukayyid was – 1 May 3052
So the entire Initial invasion was over, and by then how was the war prosecuted? Shambles, a complete and utter shower! is the phrase I would use describe the IS’s action against the Clans.
It in no way shows how Hanse used his forces in the 4th SW, and in no way demonstrates his battlefield genius, as per his canon description …..
As for the Black Boxes – they existed at one point in time only to be ignored until needed as plot device in another time period only to be forgotten about as quickly as they were used …..
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Canon is what it is, and for the most part, does make sense. Not always the way I would like, but it does do what it needs to in order to keep the game going.
And can never be disputed as it is sacrosanct!
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So where are the numbers to say how many new ships were made or upgraded?
And yet where are the numbers to say how many existed in the first place ….
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The only thing that seems to be changed is prediction of the future and trying to solve it in the past. Still not fixing all the holes in it. Just want to change the outcome of the clan invasion.
Then write your own ……
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why have a civil war?
In my Alt there is no civil war … this piece of lunacy is purely the responsibility of the Canon.
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So maybe the entire 4th war is one that a large chunk, maybe even over half really didn't want the war.
Book and Page No.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/23/20 09:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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Had the LC not been there to prop up the FS, it is probable that Hanse would have destroyed the FS with the assaults. But then he wouldn't have even tried without the back up.
Kathrine was a control freak from the start. If it wasn't her way, then it was no way. She just didn't start off with brute strength. Why bother with canon at all? Still don't understand the driving need to have canon running while changing just a few things to make sure that certain parties will not be harmed. Then promote assassination to change politics? And nothing bad can happen to the one that uses it the most? And you complain about reality.... Contradiction in the extreme.
That is the problem with dirty wars. Assassinations and such much have the large scale weapons, or otherwise it becomes a purely fantasy game with out a basis in reality. Might want to play something like Paranoia or so mafia boss games. At least they haven't started using nukes.
Does a war game really need nukes and such? I am sure nukes would have been used in the middle ages if they had them. Put dead cows catapulted over city walls to inflict disease and such was used. Cutting off the two fingers archers needed to fire a bow on the losers was another thing. Then maybe the ever popular burning of the cities wasn't so bad. At least a nuke kills those at ground zero quickly. Not lingering in pain until death finally takes them. And most pray for that, then living thru such horrors.
Why don't you focus on Nondi for the poor response to the clans. She was the one in charge of the LC portion of the military. For Hanse to do anything, it would have been stepping on her toes. The FC military wasn't one big happy family. No matter what you want to think.
The issue isn't writing your own alt, but ripping on canon while using it to base something that brings out even more holes is ludicris. The holes are still there, and more are created by forcing issues that would not turn out the way it is wanted.
But some how, this is not sinking it, or the need to argue keeps the conversation along these lines.
The civil war was lunacy? Why? Because Katherine showed her true colors and needed to be stopped the only way that she could be? By military action? So the entire FC was supposed to just roll over and take the tyrant archon's abuse? Oh yeah. You ignored that entire aspect of her. But then maybe you should have changed her from a power hungry mutt, to something that was far better. The assassination of anyone in the family is enough to distrust her. But her continued rage and tantrums caused even more death and pain. So yeah. She is the 'best' ruler. Kurita and Liao have nothing on her.
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Requiem
05/24/20 04:25 AM
1.158.188.5
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Had the LC not been there to prop up the FS, it is probable that Hanse would have destroyed the FS with the assaults.
No union between the FS and LA – no FC
Thus No alliance with CC, FWL and DC
Waterly’s operation scorpion disappears – and in all probability she never gets the top job
No Victor, No Katherine ….. etc
The entire 4th SW (as per canon) must be rewritten where only the FS will come to understand Hanse’s new way to wage war (circa 4th SW) and the war will in all probability be solely between the FS and the CC with small probing battles by the DC on the FS at the same time.
The question is how much damage can the FS do upon the CC – the same as canon? More / Less?
Also as Waterly is not in Charge of Comstar the Interdiction of the FS may never have come about ….
So massive changes …….
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Kathrine was a control freak from the start.
Errrr….. no! refer to when she was dating Galen Cox and prior to this when she was working alongside her mother …..
[quote[Assassinations and such much have the large scale weapons, or otherwise it becomes a purely fantasy game with out a basis in reality.
Not so, all games need structure / rules – why is it so hard to believe that humanity has evolved beyond the use of WMDs whist still engaging in war? Dichotomy in the nature of humanity.
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Why don't you focus on Nondi for the poor response to the clans.
I was using Hanse as an example for the whole …
Did even one IS great House Military Characters act as they had in the past whist directing their available forces against the Clans from the point of view of any of the Great Houses – FC (Steiner / Davion) and DC (Kurita)? Ans: No, not one showed any form of brilliance when it came to the Clan Invasion – what was provided was a completely dull and unbelievable story.
Even statistically the story cannot be considered to be realistic …… once you begin to breakdown the war into statistical units.
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The civil war was lunacy? Why?
Consider the war as given …. Then compare it to a true civil war such as the American Civil War / English Civil War etc ….what you get is a very substandard, boring and ludicrous story ….
Victor running around the Lyran state and into the FS – where he loses worlds to the CC to continue fighting Katherine – whist there is a massive backdrop of a war with the DC and multiple wars on multiple words where multiple FC units maul each other over who their true leader is …. Oh please, give me a break!
Rewrite please ……
Again Katherine has only to get rid of one person (3050-52) and that is Victor …. She did not ever have to kill her mother ….. this was just a vicious act that destroyed the story …
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Kurita and Liao have nothing on her.
Actually this statement is correct – she has the intellectual capability of giving any ruler with the IS a run for their money at that stage.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/24/20 11:45 AM
66.74.60.165
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Well the LC propping up the FS wasn't really suggesting a change there. It was saying the FS economy would still be in the dumps far longer then what it was.
There would be a whole lot more changes as well, such as Max still being in charge, instead of Ramano, as well as the St. Ives not breaking a way. The FRR would probably not have gotten free either.
How many of the Helm Core break thrus would not have been out so quickly?
The story doesn't show as much, but that does not mean she wasn't one then. Or building up to being a control freak. Seeing the power her brother had, might have changed how she felt, especially if she started feeling like she was that much better at doing things them those around her. She may also have seen her mother not using the power to do things that she felt where needed. Just like Yvonne, traits do grow as you get older.
It is very possible the military leaders did send in forces to help save a world. With this, it is possible the clans increased the bid or just reattacked after the new forces left. Given the spotty responses, it is entirely possible only a section of the unit sent arrived, and was beaten.
Well now you see the pattern in the history of the IS. They fight until the capital of a world surrenders. Part of why the clans did so well. It is a very annoying thing, but it is the way in the IS. You fight until the surrender, with a few going underground, and become part of the invaders realm. Now long slogging battles that last years.
Victor loses worlds to the CC, when he had less forces the Katherine, and she was ruling the FC. How is this Victor's doing? Katherine should have had the forces protecting those worlds. Or maybe I should say Nondi should have been dealing with that. Adam took troops that would have been working with Katherine to guard the clan border, instead of joining Victor. It seems the logic going on isn't going deep enough to be solved.
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Requiem
05/24/20 06:23 PM
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Seeing the power her brother had, might have changed how she felt,…
This is the underlying justification with Canon … just because Victor was born first he was to be given everything, even though she as a more capable leader that he ever could be …
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It is very possible the military leaders did send in forces to help save a world.
Not when every canon’s conquered world’s information is supplied within sarna wiki and the books published and can be readily analyzed - even statistically. Thus providing detailed evidence as to story which can only be considered to be lacking any real substance, and completely goes against the characters that came before – six months to a year more in constructing a more detailed story is clearly what was required …..
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They fight until the capital of a world surrenders.
They fight until the hearts of the people say to stop fighting – otherwise FRR would have surrendered to the Clans and the FS to the DC way into the future ….
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Part of why the clans did so well.
Sorry to say but the Clan’s Invasion is little more than a joke when you consider the IS - amount of front line forces used / the number of reserve units used / the number of worlds that did not have any defenders and as such was just handed over to the clans.
Then when you consider “the year of peace” and the IS’s military action post this time frame the Invasion has now become a complete and utter farce! Every Great House has one year to prepare for the next wave and what occurs in the Canon story – absolutely nothing – no one makes any real defensive measures …. And then we are expected to believe Tukayyid and the 15 years peace proposal?
Can I groan now as the story goes down the drain ….. reality and any semblance of a good story has left the building ……
Rewrite please …. As this will not stand the test of time in attempting to bring new players to the game!
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Victor loses worlds to the CC, when he had less forces the Katherine,
Please explain the Chaos March when many of these worlds went independent and were once more re-conquered by the CC.
Sorry to say but I find this premise to surpass the Clan Invasion in being a story that lacking any credibility ….
Katherine would never have called home her forces – she would have just declared this entire area a part of the Lyran State and that would have been that. Victor would have been incapable of stopping the expansion of the Lyran state into the FS ….
What we have here is yet another story of allowing a House / Clan get away with expanding their realm when in reality it should never have occurred …..
The idea that a House Lord will ever give up any territory their units hold is beyond ludicrous ….
Please note this occurred in 3057 ….
Adam taking forces to defend the border occurs during the Civil War (3064-65) following his stint with Archer Christifori – Operation Audacity …
It is just the last of the worlds that were retaken by the CC during this stage – Tikonov …
The loss of this world shows that Victor is incapable of being a Ruler – if he could not see the trap that Sun Tzu he is incapable of ever being considered his father’s son in intellect and cunning …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/24/20 07:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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The funny thing is the books actually had Hanse mobilize merc to head towards the clan front, yet most of them do not appear in the listing. This is also true of other units that were being sent, but needed more time to prepare for the journey. Was this oversight? Forgotten about? Or yet another time the writers didn't have the facts of what was going on?
The entire Chaos March was Lyran territory. It was given to Melissa for the wedding. It was Lyran troops that were stationed in a majority of it, until Katherine abandoned it when she moved against Victor. She and Nondi never moved any 'loyal' forces back in there, as she was using them all to remove any forces 'loyal' to Victor. The little alliances and such were done so they could try and resist the merger back into the CC. But this was done by Katherine, not Victor. Now if you want to change that in the alt, that's your choice. But for Canon, it did not happen the way you claim it did.
It is ludicris for the house lords to retreat units from a combat? The stand and die orders will make sure you never have loyal units every. This all or nothing attitude is why you don't understand the entire game. You would lose more forces to ambushes and such, as you would demand the units stay and fight it out, so they get wiped out. This very concept is much like you would think the CC would order. How does that turn out? The people hate the government and stop trying to even help. Sounds like something that was railed against in an earlier post.
So Victor was supposed to weaken his lesser forces by sending in troops the LC portion was supposed to have in the Chaos March why? Nondi was beaten in the LC, and those forces that were 'loyal' to Katherine were supposed to guard those world. I guess Victor would be a fault for not just rolling over and dying at Katherine's wishes. And you don't see the truth in this? Where is the logic? Katherine claimed ALL FC worlds. That included the Terran March. So who's failure was it that they were lost?
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Requiem
05/25/20 06:16 AM
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The funny thing is the books actually had Hanse mobilize merc to head towards the clan front, yet most of them do not appear ….
Once more unto the breach …. and yet no one arrives, why am I not surprised.
Novels say one set of event whereas the game supplement books say another? Yes it could have been an oversight?
And yet the overarching story does not change – minimal IS units and battles, a total lack of any real tactical / strategic battlefield events that would add something to story.
Ho Hum……
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Chaos March
Why would Katherine give up on this massive area of space that also generates a massive amount of money (and by extension a massive amount of power)? Especially when you look at worlds like Tikonov – and when you see Katherine, in the future, wandering through rooms full of ‘gifts’ (Bribes) from the nobles of her realm and noting who her supporters are by the value of the gift they have provided her ….
How can Thomas and the FWL attack the FS if three quarters of his border is controlled by Lyrans? – thus leaving Lyran worlds who have FS forces on them?
So were FWL forces supposed to be only attacking the FS forces on Lyran Worlds and NOT damaging the Lyran worlds themselves?
If his forces went through the CC – we now have a timing issue when it comes to battles near the lower half of the CC against the Capellan March Worlds
Once again the actions of key character(s) within the story no longer matches up with their given personality – she adores wealth and power or she doesn’t when she gives up such a valuable area of space?
Again, questions must be asked as to the overall validity of this time frame given the actions of everyone involved …..
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It is ludicrous for the house lords {their military commanders as no one micro-managers their military to such an extent} to retreat units from a combat?
Comprehension of what was written, again?
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So Victor was supposed to weaken his lesser forces by sending in troops the LC portion was supposed to have in the Chaos March why?
At this stage in history Victor is supposed to have (about) 150 RCTs. If this FS force is sufficient to garrison the entirety of the FS prior to the establishment of the FC why is it now impossible for it do so?
We know Katherine is holding some the FS Jumpships hostage – but as we do not know the percentage he does hold if it would restrict those units who do have a permanent fleet support from moving, in a timely manner, into this area of space if she did quit this area of space ….
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Nondi was beaten in the LC,
Timing issue again? …. This occurred at the very end of the Civil War when she was killed by Peter in Tharkad City in 3067, so the point is?
If Victor is fighting a civil war he should have known there is but one strategy – to kill the head of the snake! And yet what do we get, Victor going bush and wandering around …..
Once again the movement of military units have no real strategic, tactical or political objective ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
05/25/20 09:41 AM
71.47.193.139
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Why would Katherine give up on this massive area of space that also generates a massive amount of money (and by extension a massive amount of power)? Especially when you look at worlds like Tikonov – and when you see Katherine, in the future, wandering through rooms full of ‘gifts’ (Bribes) from the nobles of her realm and noting who her supporters are by the value of the gift they have provided her ….
Because that misunderstands Katherine's goals. This oversimplified all Lyran thinking into, "it's only about the money," which is false.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
05/25/20 01:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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Didn't you read the part where Katherine pulls all forces 'loyal' to her out of the Terran March, just as Thomas was told about his son's death? Something like, all forces loyal to the LC will leave the posts and head into the LC immediately. That whole thing is caused the LA to basically steal a chunk of the FS ships as they headed out. This was done WITHOUT tell Victor. So scrambling to get forces into the region to stop the CC and FWL was difficult under normal conditions but the lack of transports created even more issues. In the one book he even said he would attack her right now, if he had the transports to do anything. For someone that claims to have read so much, it is either skimming, or just 'forgetting' things that counter the complaints before they are made.
Also reread what the FWL really attacked. The worlds they lost around Terra. That was the main goal of the attacks, with the story of hitting Victor for the scandal of Joshua. Once he achieved that, he then helped the CC retake their worlds.
During the civil war, I am not sure where you got the information that Victor had 150 regiments under his control, unless you are including those that were not part of this fight, but were being hit by Katherine's forces.
Having gifts given and being supporters is not one and the same. This is a prime example of lip service, which seems to be something not in your vocabulary. The same thing happens when worlds are taken by an enemy force. So quislings were within the 'loyal' Katherine alliance. OH NO! Say it isn't true. More then a few didn't like, to hated Katherine and feared her wrath enough to act like they supported her? Just like the entire history of humankind? This has always been the case, though how many have done so has been inconsistent.
This is also how assassinations tend to be done. Someone close to the person is a traitor to them, and helps get it done.
And ordering the death of Omi Kurita was one of the largest assassinations ordered DIRECTLY from Katherine. But then she never did anything like that..
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Requiem
05/25/20 07:57 PM
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Didn't you read the part where Katherine pulls all forces 'loyal' to her out of the Terran March, just as Thomas was told about his son's death? Something like, all forces loyal to the LC will leave the posts and head into the LC immediately.
… and as stated above in accepting this Canon fact Katherine is giving up on an area of space that generates a vast amount of wealth and power, something that is completely against her personality …. Tikonov – BattleMech (Heavy), VTOL and aerospace fighter production world …. Can anyone provide a coherent reason as to why Katherine would give up a world as vital as this to her hated brother Victor when she loves wealth and power?
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For someone that claims to have read so much, it is either skimming, or just 'forgetting' things that counter the complaints before they are made.
She did not have to steel these ships as they were already within Lyran space! as the entire “Chaos / Terran” Mach belongs to the Lyran State (wedding gift) – so removing these forces is just ceding Lyran Space to the Federated Suns and Victor.
Please explain why Katherine would do this?
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Also reread what the FWL really attacked. The worlds they lost around Terra.
Of which belong to the Lyran State and not the Federated Suns – again they were a wedding gift and as such belong to the Lyran State not the Federated Suns!
Thus in attacking this area the FWL are NOT attacking the FS they ARE attacking the new Lyran State, so the main goal of the attacks now becomes highly questionable when Katherine requested a Peace Treaty with the FWL – so once again the writers have created a situation that once investigated closer has “issues” with regards to its propositions.
So if the FWL did attack he would have had to have gone through the CC and engaged worlds within the Capellan March!
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During the civil war, I am not sure where you got the information that Victor had 150 regiments under his control,
Comprehension of reading once more!
At the time Katherine succeeded from the FC and established the Lyran state the Federated Suns would have had about 150 Regiments – thus making the issue of him being on the back-foot against both the FWL and the CC a completely and utterly stupid idea if you take the true number of military units the FS have from the 20 year year update and not the watered down figure as per the second House Book that completely gutted the FC forces – and to which I have never received a satisfactory answer – How could the Forces of the FC go from the 20 year update to the two House Books and somehow lose the majority of their forces – especially when you realize these forces were never on the Clan Front Lines?
So, as far as I can tell is that Canon removes the majority of the FC military units because the page count within these books must be kept to a limited number of pages and one unit per page descriptor must be maintained.
So if you keep the 20 year update and Katherine removes her forces guess what happens to both the FWL and the CC if they attack the FS who at this stage would have a two to one gap in military might? My bet is that Victor would have squashed both of these two houses if he was allowed the TRUE forces of the FC and not the watered down amount.
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Having gifts given and being supporters is not one and the same.
Comprehension of reading once more!
What this shows is that Katherine likes the finer things in life and as such would NEVER give up anything that belongs to her that provide her with the trappings of money and power – i.e. the Terran March.
We all know that the majority of her supporters were providing her lip service – this is just how the game is played when it comes to maintaining power in the Lyran State.
Comparing how Politics are conducted in the Lyran state with Quislings who worked with the Clans – this is quite amusing and completely without any basis in fact and reality – two completely different systems and situations – One is a preexisting Liege Lord whose family have ruled legally for how many centuries – and who realize that providing gifts will help grease the wheels to enable then to make money / get their issues to the front of the line (this is just the first step in political lobbying – of which occurs now) / the other represents a people willingly working with a military force that conquered their people with force and have implemented their political will on these people by force.
Assassinations do not occur with lobby groups – why kill the golden goose if they are willing to help make you money in exchange for a kick back?
However within a conquered world and quislings – yes I agree you are correct assassination would be rife.
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And ordering the death of Omi Kurita was one of the largest assassinations ordered DIRECTLY from Katherine. But then she never did anything like that.
Read Machiavelli’s the Price (of which the entire IS at this time frame can be compared directly with – i.e. the age of the Borgias and the city states of Italy) – This is a very normal thing to do, though it was done with spite in mind. If Katherine had known she had given birth though she would never have had her killed – she would have congratulated Omika and asked respectfully if she could meet and present presents to her new niece / nephew – and then she would have sat back and watch both Omika and Victor be destroyed by everyone whom he once considered his ally. A truly Machiavellian ploy.
Black Dragon society and Theodore would hit the roof …. as well as many within the DC …..
The Sandovals of Robinson and the entire Draconis March would revolt against Victor ….. his tenure within the ComGuards would become quite difficult by then …. And would mean many of supporters would be looking for a new First Prince … and we now have a third candidate for First Prince of the FS backed by the Draconis March ….. Victor’s youngest brother …. Arthur.
Of which again shows how plebian the writing was – what fun and games could have been written into the books if they just found a true devil’s advocate to whisper some very evil suggestions …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/26/20 12:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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For the alt, Katherine can lay golden eggs. For canon, the perception you have on her seems off from most of the rest of us. The pulls them out to hurt her brother. She originally thought he would stay with the FS and they may even come to blows. So the calculated idea was to show the IS she was NOT part of Operation Gemini, nor did she side with it. It was there to force Victor to send in FS forces, so they could be chewed on by the FWL. Not sure why vendetta against her brother would not trump power for a while. As you stated, while he lived, he was the greatest threat to her.
You really think every ship within someones borders are theirs? This kind of explains why the answers you get aren't what you want. And with this, she took ships that belonged to loyal FS troops on the clan border in order to strand them on what ever world they were on.
Then again, you think Katherine is a saint. For the alt, do as you want. For canon, some of these concepts don't apply what so ever.
Did you think that Katherine pulling the LC, to become the LA was just a spat? It was her trying to suggest the FC was not longer. And for her, it didn't exist anymore. And put your concept of the warrior prince to good use. Do you think Victor would not be in the front lines to defend the Terran March? As her killing him would only promote more issues, another country would rally behind her without the bloody mess the civil war was. This is how a politician does things. They use others to do the bidding.
Comprehensive reading? You mean where a good chunk of the FS forces were on the clan border? That a majority of the forces in the FC at the start of the war was with Katherine or neutral? Or did you miss where those that were loyal to the FS/Victor were being destroyed even before the civil war started? Try reading the canon books, not the alt. Some information is completely off.
And make sure you read the part where both FS and LA forces joined both sides. Even some of the Davion Guards joined Katherine, not Victor.
And you still don't seem to get it that raids and gutting units to fill others does happen.
I don't have the new house books, so can't say for certain what happened. It may well be most of those that disappeared become planetary militia to protect worlds and not be moved around by local lords. Then again, it is possible some of the information was lost or misplaced. It isn't like that hasn't happened before.
There is something wrong with the analysis in your comprehension. Some 'facts' are just wishes when discussing Canon outcomes. I really didn't see anything where Katherine was really money hungry. No golden mechs standing guard over her or some such thing like it. She wanted power, and loyalty. Something others didn't seem to want to give her, and she used her position to force changes.
And yet this comprehension can not see how other things are possible?
What is that? Why not assassinate the one in power that is forcing you into a corner? Put in a person that is friendly to your point of view? Isn't that why others help remove people with this? Some do it because the leader is blood thirsty tyrant, but in the end, most would rather kill the person then pay them, especially when they are smart enough to make sure they have the black mail evidence to put the screws to them in the future. But then this is history talking. Not something that should be considered when harping on the way humanity evolves and does things.
Well there we have it. Trying to force the game to be an old book. That is why you don't seem to understand what is going on with the canonverse. Might explain some of the conclusions going on, and why they don't fit in the canon game. But understanding doesn't seem to be the want of this. It seems this is just to vent that they didn't listen to you when developing things.
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Requiem
05/26/20 06:30 AM
1.158.188.5
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Not sure why vendetta against her brother would not trump power for a while.
Really? …. Giving in to her ‘vendetta’ will cost her a couple hundred worlds – some of them are extremely wealthy? So, Katherine is that shortsighted that she would give up her mother’s wedding gift – “I give you ….the Capellan Confederation”? …. Canon FACT.
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You really think every ship within someones borders are theirs?
Piracy is such a vulgar concept, these ships are held for “quarantine inspections” if her naval aerospace fighters can detain these ships and then assign Marines to conduct medical examinations of each crew – Victor just needs to pay their Medical expenses prior to being released!
Or how about …
Maritime Law - Once ships enter the sea recognized as belonging to a another House they are bound to obey that Houses Laws – if they violate those laws they are subject to their Judicial Rules.
It is all legal if the First Princess gives it the OK!
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Did you think that Katherine pulling the LC, to become the LA was just a spat? It was her trying to suggest the FC was not longer.
Understanding the Law …. Both the FS and the LA have laws that must be obeyed – eg. Constitutional Law / The Supreme Court of The United States - In the Lyran States that is the Estates General (FACT) – if Katherine partitions them to adopt the “opt out” clause and they agree (Because Victor has proven himself to no longer be fit to Rule the FC) then it is all Legal and above board …. FACT
If he wants to dispute this fact then he has two options. First, Legally he can request to appeal the Estates General (in a Court of Law) or Secondly, he can start a civil war …..
As he did nothing proves that he is quite inept to be considered to a House Lord …. and the son of Hanse Davion!
The fact does not change the entire Terran March / Chaos March belongs to the Lyran people as a wedding gift from Husband to wife. A fact that completely eludes some – so why would Katherine give up her mother’s wedding gift if she is now the Legal ruler of the Lyran Alliance (as ratified by the Estates General and the Lyran Military)?
Please explain why any ruler give up so many worlds then their military hold them? If any of the FS units are within this area she does have the LEGAL right, as the ruler of the Lyran Alliance, to declare them Persona Non Grata and kick them out ….
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she used her position to force changes.
Only on those rulers who were disobedient, otherwise she was incredibly loved by the Lyran people …. Why else did the fight so hard for her against Victor?
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Trying to force the game to be an old book. That is why you don't seem to understand what is going on with the canon-verse.
Then please do explain, how the militaries of every IS Great House’s military numbers changes so radically from the 20 Year update (circa 3050) to the next House Books (circa early 3060) when taking into account the number of units involved in the Clan Invasion Campaign? (…. and then take into account the page count per book does not vary that much?)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/26/20 12:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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For the canonverse, the wealth is nice, but not the over riding force behind all actions in the LC. Giving up worlds that she thought she would regain once Victor was dealt with. Or that Victor would retain them, but bleed the troops 'loyal' to him. It isn't like risks always go your way. Also, the whole ordeal of removing those troops was to suggest she was not part of the Gemini situation, and pulled out to show it.
Confiscating ship only means you control that, not that you own them initially, which is what the statement made suggests. There are all sorts of trick, but the fact remains they were not hers until AFTER she stole them. Simple fact.
Disobedient? You mean stealing the archonship from the first heir to the FC wasn't being disobedient? Also, when you get told to do something that is against the needs of your people, you tend to avoid doing so. Such as standing down your militia, or sending even more taxes to the higher ups. For someone that suggests breaking orders should mean death, such as troops not fighting to the death, you are very contradictive when it comes to someone that destroys the FC with her actions. But I guess the logic here doesn't register.
There are a few ways that have already been suggested. The idea that they nerfed the units to fit inside a specific range of pages is also something I would not put past the developers. It is hard enough to get people to put out the money for the books to begin with, but making extra pages without charging for it, hurts their wallet. And charging extra would mean even less sales. But this question line needs to be directed towards TPTB. Something that seems to be out of the question for you.
And yet again. The basic issue here is the fact you argue that your numbers are correct, being they are the only viable way it could be, yet don't really have any, saying the developers numbers are wrong for their own product.
And yet you say each person should be able to do what they want, yet argue the people that made the story can't.
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