ghostrider
06/19/20 11:25 AM
66.74.60.165
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The thing with the grid is I don't remember seeing anything about the arena in the SL era. It is very possible I just don't have the books that says anything about it. So if it wasn't League tech, then who came up with it and built it?
I don't think there was any sort of duels outside of the Olympic games, and really don't remember seeing Solaris have any promotion about mech fights during the SL. So that brings up a few other questions.
I want to say there is some automated or remote controlled refueling ships at some of the jump points, but the wiki and my system don't seem to want to play nice with each other to actually find out.
There is another point that needs to be made with remote control/robotics. The auto pilot of ships is using this sort of tech. Some things are very simple, such as opening a door without being in physical contact with the ship, to having them plot a course. The navigation computers on jumpships are very famous for that one.
I would also think some of the more sophisticated ship yards still run remote controlled units. The idea came to me earlier this week, so you have some support with the deep space welders argument.
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Requiem
08/01/20 06:42 AM
1.158.133.26
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Not only did the Clans possess a technological edge over that of the Inner Sphere their Mech Warriors possessed an edge over their inner sphere warriors with regards to piloting and gunnery …
3051 – during the lull in the invasion Jamie Wolf called for a conference on Outreach. All the heads of the various Inner Sphere Houses and several mercenary leaders were invited. It was at the start of this conference that Jamie Wolf revealed the true origin of the Dragoons …. There they trained the heirs of each House in the ways of the Clans ….
During the age of the First Hidden War (2650 onwards) DCMS Ronin engaged in one on one duels with their SLDF compatriots …. Resulting in the realization that the Ronin simply had superior training that the warriors of the SLDF.
To rectify the problem the First Lord ordered the establishment of the Advanced Combat and Maneuvering Skills Project (The Gunslinger Program) was established to produce superior duelists to take on the Ronin Warriors ….
Question: Why wasn’t there the establishment of a new Gunslinger program to produce superior duelists to take on the Clan Warriors?
Start with Training Instructors from Wolfs Dragoons …
Then move on to Clan Bondsman taken captive in battle
Did no one remember their History?
And over time this program could have been transferred to every Academy within the IS to specifically train every IS warrior to take on a Clan warrior as an equal.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
08/03/20 09:42 AM
173.247.25.195
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I thought Wolf's Dragoons DID show Inner Sphere tacticians the tactics used by the Clans. At least until the Khans returned from the Grand Council and the invasion resumed, whereupon the Dragoons returned to the front and the training was mostly cut off. They could have continued after Tukayyid, in limited capacity.
Undoubtedly each House took these tactics back home and adapted their premier training academies to train soldiers in these tactics. So each House (at least the three involved in the fighting) would have had a mini-Gunslinger program. Tukayyid ended the invasion before the programs could produce much value, but I bet a lot of the graduates were later transferred to units participating in Bulldog.
As far as a training every IS soldier, now way that happens in 9 year span between Radstadt and Bulldog, but by the Republic and Dark Age timeframes I'm sure every graduate of military academies across the sphere have to take courses on Clan tactics. But keep in mind that Clan Warriors had been doing the same since the early 3000s so they might still have had an edge. As much as the IS warriors could exploit Clan tactics like zellbrigin, the Clans could have adapted to exploit things like their range advantage, massive aerospace superiority, or better utilization of their spheroid counterparts in less critical roles like the Bears and Ravens did.
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ghostrider
08/03/20 01:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Dragoon meeting did teach some on the tactics used by the clans, or at least up until the point that they were sent to the IS. The houses did find some ways to counter the clans, but they were limited to specific locations.
It would have been stupidly foolish for the houses to ignore the information, even with the truce in effect. Until Serpent, the clans were still a future threat, if they even bothered to wait until the end of the truce. The newer recruits probably were the main ones in Bulldog, as the more elite units were sent in Serpent.
There is no way to train every soldier in the IS on new tactics. The main ones you would focus on is the officers, as they are the ones to organize and order those tactics. And the concentration of them would be on or near the front. It is very unlikely a unit stationed on the border of TC space would get the advanced training any time soon.
From the sounds of it, the clan tactics seem to be misunderstood there Wick. The clans did stand back and use the range of their weapons to kill the enemy. The stories just don't show that. In most conditions that allowed it, the range is what help neutralize the numbers advantage the IS had. The more powerful weapons are not to be forgotten on this, but when you can hit a few extra times before the enemy can even fire on you, makes a huge difference.
The clans edge is that they were indoctrined in the tactics from childhood. Fear of death was pretty much taken out of the equation, so the warriors were not so worried about surviving the fight. Where an IS warrior would retreat when damaged so badly, the clan warrior would just continue on with the fight.
Remember about the distaste for physical combat on the clans part. They used their skills at range, not brute force of a fist.
The clan teachings prevented a lot of things like massed aerospace fighters, or using freeborns. The Wolves under Ulric was the closest thing they came to actually trusting IS people. The Bears figured this out and started treating the locals a little better, but didn't go as far.
I can't comment on the Ravens as that is a time frame after I stopped getting the books.
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Requiem
08/03/20 07:22 PM
1.158.133.26
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Wolf's Dragoons DID show Inner Sphere tacticians the tactics used by the Clans.
And yet another hole in the Clan Invasion …..They might as well not have bothered, pre and post Dragoons Conference on Outreach tactics didn’t change at all ….
IN MY OPINION - TPTB established a campaign that had no real basis in what should have occurred – Hanse Davion was supposed to be the Napoleon of his day, and yet nothing within the Invasion proves that he was in command …..
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So each House (at least the three involved in the fighting) would have had a mini-Gunslinger program.
You would have thought so but no …. No gunslinger program
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I'm sure every graduate of military academies across the sphere have to take courses on Clan tactics.
You would think so but from all the evidence, as written, it appears as if they were given a one day course and that’s that.
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but they were limited to specific locations.
Can I scoff now? ….. finding good land to fight on an entire world’s topography should not be that hard for a commanding officer …. Or don’t the military supply topography maps of the worlds they are assigned to? Or doesn’t every garrison send out recon pilots to take pictures of the land so that they can locate good defensible position from which to fight from anymore ….. when your unit has been the Garrison Unit for how many years on a single world is there no dedicated training ground where you have been conducting training drills / live fire exercises?
No one conduct after action reports (together with gun camera footage) and then disseminate it to their garrisons next in line for invasion so that they can learn from the mistakes of the previous commanding officer?
No new weapon systems specifically designed to anti clan tactics? How hard is it to create a sniper rifle that can penetrate elemental (Toad) armor and kill the operator?
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There is no way to train every soldier in the IS on new tactics.
Can I scoff now? ….. every military, especially infantry, are big on training and re-training and more training followed by more training etc. ……. And for ALL ranks …. And no matter where they have been posted they would receive the same updated training, as this is just standard operating procedure (SOP) for all militaries everywhere ….
By the end of wave 1 and 2 – wave 3 infantry should be ready to fight toads on a one to one basis with Inferno SRM …. and yet nothing …… did no one look at envelopment tactics look at the number of toads compared to that of a single regiment of infantry ……..
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The clans did stand back and use the range of their weapons to kill the enemy.
…… Keep their aerospace fighters busy …with yours …..
….. send in a bomber flight and reduce them to scrap ….
……Whilst using artillery ….. (and remember to use time on target – all rounds from all artillery hit at exactly the same time)
……and then send in VTOL with (hellfire) missiles etc ….
……. Then send in the infantry with HE plastic / inferno rounds to make sure …
When the only weapons the clans have is ‘Mechs, toads and fighters they really do not have the flexibility of an IS commander when it comes to battles ….
Attrition warfare would have obliterated the clans …. They just do not have the numbers or the replacement personnel for a stand up fight the likes of which the IS have been fighting during all of the succession wars !!!!
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but when you can hit a few extra times before the enemy can even fire on you, makes a huge difference.
And yet when you use mass WW2 bombers and payloads on a clan positions their AA range is still not there and as stated previously the amount of conventional aircraft in the IS are in massive numbers ….. so where are they?
As is the issue of range was only a factor when it was Mech to Mech Battles – and why can’t you find terrain to limit that advantage on an entire world to choose from?
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Fear of death was pretty much taken out of the equation
Suggest you read about the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend
Professionalism is what is required, together with trusting your unit members to have your back, together with supporting elements that can be called upon ….
Suggest reading WW2 – fighting in the Hedge Row, Blitzkrieg Tactics as well as Elastic Defense Theory to show how you coordinate all aspects of the military to engage a single target to win …. Something that never appeared on the canon Clan Invasion battlefield ….. so why were the battles so limited in their tactics and equipment available?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/03/20 09:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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Find the best spot to fight it out. GO there and stay. I will take the factories that you left in the cities to find your perfect fighting spot. Until you move to where the enemy is at, you will be waiting a long time for nothing. Maybe even starve your troops as the enemy will shut off your supplies.
Yeah. The clans were stupid enough to stand in one spot using their ranged weapons. What garbage. Granted, you could slightly herd them into a position to hit once with art, after that they will refuse to head where you want them too. To keep range from an approaching enemy, you do have to MOVE backwards in order to keep the distance. But then that is simple tactics. Not something that actually works. Get real.
And this is even suggesting you had the forces to do any of this. Not all worlds had artillery, and even units that did, may well have had them placed on the other side of the world or in a location too far from the battle field to do any good. But then every situation has every force on all sides just sitting around, waiting for their turn to fight.
And when the clans mass warships and just bombard everything... See how stupid that looks? The game wasn't about having so many units you needed dropping out your backside. It was making do with what you had. Now if you have every last unit in one Gazelle dropship that houses a full RCT in it, then there is no reality in touch with the game.
Tanks die even faster them mechs do when engaged with clan units, with the exception of the clans not wanting to even acknowledge they are there. As said above, you can not always pick your battlefield. The clans are especially difficult to make fight on your terms. But that is the issue. They DON'T fight as you want them to. Which is why they are the horrible boogieman that jumps out of the shadow to gut your troops without a sound.
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Requiem
08/04/20 12:45 AM
1.158.133.26
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First, Remember what Sun Tzu wrote in the Art of War - know yourself and know your enemy
The Clans do NOT care about factories or utilizing starvation tactics – what they do care about is the circle of equals.
“If you build the circle of equals they will come!”
Not only is it their “raison d’etre” when it comes to fighting it is also a part of their Law.
Second, The Batchall – “The defender also has the right to name the location of the Trial.”
Thus every inner sphere unit, as being the defender, has the right to say where they are going to fight – they have the right to choose a location where the Clans range is limited!
Something post Dragoon Conference every Commander forgot about ….. something I would like to know why as once this is known every IS unit could create a kill box with their sappers and invite them in ….?
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The clans were stupid enough to stand in one spot using their ranged weapons. What garbage.
What is the area affect of an artillery round or a gravity bomb?
Artillery can hit a moving target – and using time on target is not that difficult for a competent artillery battery.
So even if they are moving they are toast from a few thousand tons of TNT killing off a massive area all at once.
Question where is the sensor for incoming artillery / bomber bombardment on my clan Mech dashboard as I seem to have forgotten its location?
Consider your average Clan Warrior - Since when has a Clan Unit retreated when attack seems to the only direction they know? It goes against their martial skill if they retreat – remember they believe they are uber warriors and uber warriors do not retreat in the face of anything!
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Not all worlds had artillery,
But every world has conventional aircraft as well as gravity bombs!
And as the defender gets the right to determine the location they can have their units moved way in advance and hidden from the get go.
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And when the clans mass warships and just bombard everything...
Once on Turtle Bay … the other in Lyran Space that was a threat …. And that’s it!
Start doing this an I reserve the right to nuke every Clan ship and use short rage nukes on clan Drop-ships just landing …. Thus the clans are now in a nuclear war of Armageddon …. Equal to that of the First Succession War …
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Tanks die even faster them mechs do when engaged with clan units
What matters is who is left standing at the end …. Tanks en mass Vs clans + hovercraft etc and they will fall …. Especially if you use Naval tactics and cross the T
They may stop many but they won’t get all – attrition warfare on steroids!
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As said above, you can not always pick your battlefield.
The Batchall says otherwise … something every unit should have known post Dragoon Conference!
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They DON'T fight as you want them to. Which is why they are the horrible boogieman that jumps out of the shadow to gut your troops without a sound.
Superior reconnaissance, establishing traps in advance and limiting their movement by picking good ground says otherwise!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/04/20 03:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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The clans do not care about the circle of equals, but to pass on their genetic legacy. Granted, that normally requires a blood name, but not all get it from being a bloodnamed warrior. The circle tends to be a tool to gain the ultimate goal.
Have you forgotten the clans, especially Jade Falcon refused to give a batchall, or accept one? I do agree that units would be more enlightened after the Dragoon summit, but doubt the IS would issue the challenge. Without the clans doing so, the battle becomes more of fighting the dark caste, which is what a lot of the clanners thought the IS was. The clans normally didn't wait for the defenders to return any information on a challenge, but instead just attacked what was near and went from there.
So yes. This was a major parting of their supposed ways. It was basically this point that showed the clans were all honor talk, but would do what ever in order to win. It wasn't like the other clans would believe the IS, if they even had a chance to say anything, about how the invasion clans really did things.
In the game the blasts is a single hex for full strength, and drops off at 2 hexes. The clans had and did use artillery, so they knew more about it then you think. Time on target is great, if the enemy does what you want them to do. Any sort of fast random movement throws the entire barrage out the window. And the distance has a lot to do with it. Even 2 rounds is enough to miss. As the game only uses 20 points max for an artillery strike from a single tube, it is not the end all like it should be.
And clans do retreat to throw off the enemies traps and such. The may not run a kilometer a way, 100 or 200 meters should suffice. It is more of backing up some, then a retreat as most think of it.
They are bred for war, but that does not mean lacking in anything but frontal assaults. They don't normally engage in physical combat, which would occur if they go point blank.
There are more then a few worlds that didn't have dedicated bombers. A few, had things like ultralights for scouting, but not for dropping bombs. And remember that the game does not allow aircraft to fly so high that weapons can not hit the craft. The exception being a range of 3 or less that can't hit. So your bombers are not a free strike.
The warship statement was meant to show how much bs the idea of massing bombers in the game really is. World do not have thousands of combat craft just sitting around waiting for the enemy to attack. Most are scrambling just to get something up in defense. Saying you will use massed bombers is just as wrong as saying the warhips will come enmasse and destroy the worlds that fight back.
I will say it again, and hopefully it sinks in. The clans DID NOT issue challenges like you wanted them to. There was no determining the fighting area, as the batchall was not given. And the IS giving them, gives up the defenders choice of fighting area. So without the clans challenge, the idea of picking where to fight them becomes very limited.
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Requiem
08/04/20 07:34 AM
1.158.133.26
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The clans do not care about the circle of equals
I Strongly Disagree, It is part of the Rules Nicholas established for the Clans …. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Batchall
If they expect the IS to play by their rules, then they must pay up when they lose the bet ….
Even the Jaguars had to obey – Wolcott – the Mistweavers were defeated and they had to hand over 4 Omnis and two dozen Elementals;
And again when every Clan within the IS had to obey - Tukayyid – they were defeated on a planet chosen by Focht and they had to give up 15 years as equal value;
I would now like to ask – what is a world and all its people on it worth – as stated above if the defenders win then “The defender is also able to ASK FOR A PRIZE OF EQUAL VALUE that the attacker must surrender should they prove victorious”
So in reality with Wolcott the Jaguars got off easy - Of equal value = a world or something equal to a world = A world they have already taken or something else ?
This is again is something that every IS commander should have known post Dragoon Conference – in all reality they could have asked for multiple Clusters to a Galaxy per world if they lost to the IS …. (so again can I ask how this little mishap was ignored? - So again, another black hole that proves the Invasion was rigged from the start! Not impressed!!!+)
As these are the rules they must be held to …. or can I suggest a Alt Universe rewrite ….. ?
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Have you forgotten the clans, especially Jade Falcon refused to give a batchall, or accept one?
Have you forgotten when that was? … so everything before that point in time was part of the bidding process, and remember they are just one clan of many!
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The clans had and did use artillery.
And when was the first time anyone within the IS saw a Clan Arrow IV system? Way past Tukayyid - As they don’t have any other artillery ….
And they don’t have bombers ….
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As the game only uses 20 points max for an artillery strike from a single tube, it is not the end all like it should be.
Question: What happed to the 1st NAIS during the F C Civil War for the final battle on New Valon, when attacking Avalon City when they came under the guns of the 299th Division? I believe the quote was they were ‘decimated’
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There are more then a few worlds that didn't have dedicated bombers.
And no one brought them in specifically for the job? …. Again showing a major limitation of the Clan Invasion War …. They are perfect for obliterating their ground forces ….
Though for some enlightened commanders there were permanently attached. For Example – 1201st New Avalon Bomber Wing - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Davion_Assault_Guards
Dedicated wings are attached to units!
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World do not have thousands of combat craft just sitting around waiting for the enemy to attack.
Been through this before, and yes there are thousands of conventional aircraft just sitting around ….. so how about go out and collecting and ship them to the front lines ….. conscription ?
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I will say it again, and hopefully it sinks in. The clans DID NOT issue challenges like you wanted them to. There was no determining the fighting area, as the batchall was not given.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion
“often the first the defenders knew they were under attack was when the Clan forces issued their batchall.”
“ Rasalhague - internal strife within the Ghost Bear leadership delayed the bidding until 4 July ….”
“The Battle of Wolcott”
‘The First Circuit decided that the Com Guards would challenge the invading Clans to a Trial of Possession on a proxy world over Terra.”
“The Great Refusal was a Trial of Refusal in which the reborn Star League ended the Clan Invasion. …. thus ending the invasion in accordance with Clan law.”
ALL examples of using Clan law – the same as the batchall ……
So yes they did ….. and yes the IS CAN choose where to fight … as well as the right to prizes if they win !!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/04/20 02:19 PM
66.74.60.165
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You do understand that the clans could send a new batchall after a while to attack Wolcott again? So never attacking it was a major victory to the DC.
But the circle of equals did not have much to do with the clan invasion as there was no information on how to deal with it. The clans knew this, and didn't bother to inform the IS of anything. It started turning out to be victory at all costs, and honor be put aside for that cause. The reports sent back to the home worlds was inaccurate at best, out right lies at worse. But I can see where the circle and honor aren't one and the same.
The circle was used to attack someone you didn't like. It wasn't so much honor, but just an outlet for momentary rage fits. They would agree to it if others were around to witness it. Otherwise, they would murder each other from time to time. Most of the time, it was not reported. One example would be Aidan killing the one trueborn when he was posing as a freeborn.
Some in the other clans did not issue batchalls either. And when they did, they knew the enemy had no clue on it, so where is the honor in it? They knew nothing would be asked if the defender won. And there wasn't much batchalls sent out after the Dragoon meeting, as it meant the attacker would have to allow the defender the ability to demand something in return. That would impinge on their honor, as it suggested the IS believed the clan superiority was in question.
As said a few times before. An alt is not an issue. It is using the alt to suggest the canon should have went that way, and that the alt is the ONLY way it could happen.
It was not printed in novels. but under the Naga mech, it states that the warriors of some clans left the Naga's to fight IS units on their own. They purposefully did so. So that 'fact' is invalid.
And I want to say one of the vehicles the clans did use was tube artillery. Just too busy to look it up at the moment.
The Falcon Guard had dealt with a few other units about advancing, as the others were saying they needed the little artillery left on Tukyidd.
Misinformation there. SOME units had dedicated wings and such. More then not, they were stuck with what ever was available at the time. And even the dedicated wings were reassigned to other units from time to time. Most worlds were pushing for just mechs and ground vehicles to protect their world. Aircraft that was pure military was pretty well ignored. RCTs were supposed to have aerofighters. Atmospheric fighters was odd at the best. Vtols were more likely as they could be used to transport supplies and soldiers if not used for combat. Which is probably why jeeps still exist in the front lines.
The issue with moving units is the fact the developers never really got into what was moved. The fact the DC border units were sent to the clan line, yet some how never arrived comes to mind. I do believe they realized the clans would not be able to advance if they had more enemy units on the border, so they 'forgot' about it. The few they did mention, seemed to be killed quickly.
One more thing that needs to be pointed out, is there is no information on just what the clans had for supplies normally. Did they have a trinary of mechs in storage for quick reinforcements on their trips? They despise waste, yet a few of their practices suggests that isn't the case.
The PGCs would never have any mechs if they didn't have a large back up, as the clans were combat driven so would get into a fight over a lot of things. The flow of units would need to be larger then just ordering some when you lost them. This does not keep your frontline units up to par.
There was no declaration of a trial of refusal for the IS invading the Smoke Jaguars. They only hit the Jaguars hoping the clans would see it as just taking down the Jaguars. Otherwise, the invasion of Huntress would not have been a surprise.
The idea that Ulric gave up the right to choose the location of the fight for the truce would be where the crusaders had some legal grounds for accusing Ulric of betraying the clans. It wasn't unknown for a defender to forego that honor, but had the clans choosen it, then the truce probably wouldn't have happened. So storyline is why they did. I don't see any other way, but massive losses on both sides ending the invasion. And as the future saw, it did not really end it. Just changed it to individual clans making pushes into weakened areas.
Also with learning of the attack when the clans issued their challenge, the clans were already starting to invade. They did not give the defenders time to figure out anything. Which in itself tells you the bs of the jump flare warnings as well as how good the radar/sensor set up worked. Yes, the clans had ECM, yet that didn't help them against WOB and the SDS. So rule hole to make the story sound more plausible.
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Requiem
08/04/20 07:56 PM
1.158.133.26
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You do understand that the clans could send a new batchall after a while to attack Wolcott again
Batchall – so therefore the IS DO receive their choice of terrain and if they win compensation from the clans to the equal value of what they are fighting for?
Second – https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion - “The victory netted the Draconis Combine valuable examples of Clan technology and a guarantee that WOLCOTT WOULD NOT BE ATTACKED AGAIN BY THE SMOKE JAGUARS, allowing it to serve as a base of resistance within their Occupation Zone.”
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the circle of equals did not have much to do with the clan invasion as there was no information on how to deal with it
Post Dragoon Conference the IS forces have the right to use Clan traditions and Law against them – thus again showing how TPTB manipulated the Invasion in favor of the Clans – AGAIN demonstrating the need for a massive rewrite of the Clan Invasion as the canon version (in my opinion) is A PHONY WAR, from beginning to end, thus making every other historical event after this phony by extension to the Clan Invasion ……
Suggest everyone start reading The Saga of Tanya the Evil as to how far you can go when bending the rules of war, and in addition, as to how to write a war story !!!!
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Otherwise, they would murder each other from time to time.
Actually there were major fatalities when it came to a circle of equals ….
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Some in the other clans did not issue batchalls either.
As from when and which ones ….. as proven above all the clans were bound by Clan Law at the time of the Great Refusal following the destruction of the Jaguars on Huntress!
Thus this statement can only be considered post this time period … However, were is it written that a specific clan gave up on the rules of Kerensky, and their Honor, from this point going forward by denying the batchall ……?
And how would the other Clans react to this move as they are very political in nature?
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As said a few times before. An alt is not an issue. It is using the alt to suggest the canon should have went that way, and that the alt is the ONLY way it could happen.
My Alt. is a closer version to the truth when considering Logistics tyranny of distance / sibko than that of the canon phony war version ….
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Naga
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naga_(OmniMech)
“By end of 3085, the Naga would ceased being produced in Clan Space. Not a popular design among remaining Clan Space based Clans, its production facilities would repurposed…”
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And I want to say one of the vehicles the clans did use was tube artillery.
How many vehicles were seen in the IS during the Clan Invasion ? …… Not a one!
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Misinformation there. SOME units had dedicated wings and such. More then not, they were stuck with what ever was available at the time.
During the “year of peace” which should be renamed “the year of preparedness” ….. wouldn’t every unit assigned to a front line roll be assigned with a TO&E that would maximize their ability to counter the next Clan invasion wave? Any sane General would believe this would be the case … The Dragoons told them how to gain the advantage of a good battlefield as well as how to demand reparations if they loose (to the equal value of what they are attempting to win) the battle.
All that is required next is the correct TO&E as well as multiple units per world – attrition warfare – they have a year and they have the forces as per the 20 year update …. Again more proof of a phony canon war!!!
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there is no information on just what the clans had for supplies normally.
And yet the logistical tyranny of distance remains – and in any normal war story a force sent to find these fleets and destroy / capture them !!!! …. Again more proof of a phony canon war
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The PGCs
Please read Jade Falcons Touman – their PGCs were comparable to 2 IS Battalions in size …. Thus their ability to garrison anything was next to nil when it comes to freeing up front line forces to continue the next wave.
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There was no declaration of a trial of refusal for the IS invading the Smoke Jaguars.
Politically the Jaguars enemies within the Clans touted it as a Trial of Annihilation and that they were on their own. Again an example of using Clan rules against them …..
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The idea that Ulric gave up the right to choose the location of the fight for the truce would be where the crusaders had some legal grounds for accusing Ulric of betraying the clans.
The Refusal War had nothing to do with the choice in land – it had everything to do with the time of 15 years.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/05/20 01:39 AM)
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ghostrider
08/05/20 12:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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Might need to reread your statements. The statement of the Batchall for Wolcott was in response to you saying that the DC should have gotten something better in return to their win. IE you suggested they should have asked for other planets.
The clans were already slipping away from the honor road even before they invaded the IS. No comprehensive reading was needed. Just follow the story line. More and more warriors including khans were about the win, and not the conduct to get it. And where there is a few things that are missing from the clan invasion, it was set up so the attacker, like in most wars, had an advantage at first. Once they lost the surprise factor, the numbers started showing.
There is a difference between murder and the outcome of a circle of equals. The circle is one that both sides know the other is going to try. Normal murder it just killing someone without any warning. One, you know is coming and can guard against it, while the other is more of a surprise attack. Now this is for the warriors. Warrior verse civilian would be murder in almost any regard.
Reread the Jade Falcon history in the invasion. They specifically avoided the Batchall, and when they were challenged, avoided negotiating anything.
Even a few officers from other clans didn't issue the challenge, though their khans changed that. The Falcon khans initiated the lack of challenge and supported not using it. The other clans didn't do much but lip service, as it was not their place to interfer with internal clan politics, though it did violate the challenge protocols.
The end of the Naga has nothing to do with the fact that the clans used artillery during the invasion.
There were vehicles used during the invasion. Just nothing specific on what or when. The artillery spotter would be a good example. They were meant to stay hidden, so they could do their job. Granted, the mechs and elementals got all the notice.
Now you are back on everything is made instantly, and that you destroy your defenses elsewhere to ship units aboard ships that don't exist, in order to expand your front line units.
I do agree they should have had more written on this very issue, but didn't. And as the game focuses on mechs, they went that route. Yet those units didn't seem to reach the front lines.
And still missing the point. The good ground concept only comes when the clans offer the Batchall. If they don't, you don't get the right to bid for where the fight will take place. You defend where they attack. Most IS units choose cities and such. The clans were smart enough to know traps, and would counter them before marching into a full battle. Even just artillery barrages to remove Vibromines and such.
Again, you missed the context of the statement. The PGCs would never have mechs if the clans did not have a ready supply of replacement mechs. They would take anything from lesser units until better ones arrived from the home worlds. Even the second line mechs, as they were better then not having one at all.
The invasion to destroy the Jaguars was never declared when it started. So it was more of a sustained undeclare assault on the Jaguars, but then the invasion was the same thing to the IS. The issue is the IS did not declare it as a refusal trial. It was the other clans until the meeting at Strana Mechity. So no. It was not using the clans traditions against them so much as declaring what it was after the win.
The truce fight had everything to do with land. Not sure why you think that was the refusal war being discussed, as Ulric was not part of the destruction of the Jaguars.
Had Focht not had the ability to choose where to fight, the comguards would not have prevailed. The CIC on Tukiyyid was a main factor of winning against the clans. There was not secret landings, disrupted coms or anything else like that during the fight. Traps and terrain were set up for the defense. Without this, the guards would probably have been completely destroyed and in almost any case, just lose.
So that response seemed to be another example of not reading what is actually there.
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Requiem
08/05/20 06:35 PM
1.158.133.26
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IE you suggested they should have asked for other planets.
Yes,
Question: what is this world worth …. What is its comparable equal value …. If bartering for planets, what would you offer for this one?
This is Clan Law …. You lose you must pay to that of equal value ….
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The clans were already slipping away from the honor road even before they invaded the IS.
Irrelevant - slipping is not breaking – It is clearly shown that there is consistency from day 1 of the Invasion that they issued batchalls, to that of the Great Refusal (e.g. Wolcott) that they upheld their own rules …… even the most ultra Warrior like Clan held to rules (the Smoke Jaguars) – upon their loss they provided the DC with Omni Mechs and Elemental suits …
And as such as the rules have been clearly shown to be upheld, therefore ALL of their rules are enforceable! – choosing the arena for engagements is held by the defender is enforceable – the right to request damages in the event the attacker looses to that of equal value of what the challenge represents is enforceable …..
Any time this was not implemented post “year of peace” – post Dragoon Conference – proves that the invasion is little more than a farcical invasion, with a predetermined ending …
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it was set up so the attacker, like in most wars, had an advantage at first. Once they lost the surprise factor, the numbers started showing.
Go back and re-read individual battles – if numbers were starting to show then there should have been three to five RCTs on every world the Clans Invaded post year of peace? And as such the entire structure of the war should have shifted from dueling to attrition?
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Warrior verse civilian would be murder in almost any regard.
Really? If a warrior kills a civilian wouldn’t it be listed as either accident / suicide?
A isn’t this the idea of clan justice?
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Reread the Jade Falcon history in the invasion. They specifically avoided the Batchall, and when they were challenged, avoided negotiating anything.
Then what happed with Marthe Pryde on Conventry and when Victor offered then Hegira?
They also participated in the Great Refusal … and were bound by the rules of the refusal.
So again use specifics of when this started and provide proof – Book / page no / sarna web site …..
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the clans used artillery during the invasion.
The first time the Naga reached the Battlefield was Tukayyid when the ComGuard retreated towards Skupo under artillery cover …..
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There were vehicles used during the invasion.
And yet there is no evidence of them whatsoever in the Clans Toumans ….and no clansman warrior in any of their units would be assigned to such an ignoble vehicle during the invasion …. again provide proof to back up the statement Book / page number / sarna web page …
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The good ground concept only comes when the clans offer the Batchall. If they don't, you don't get the right to bid for where the fight will take place.
Can I laugh now? …. The entire clans fighting style is based upon the premise that wherever the defending forces are, that is where they will go. They have no interest whatsoever as to capturing cities / factories etc. Their only interest is to prove their martial superiority – thus no matter where you place your defending forces this is where they are going to attack!
Horse Jade Falcon – “Proof lies only in victory. That is the way of the Clans”
The Batchall doesn’t really matter … it is just a means of formulizing the battle in order to receive restitution when the Clan forces lose.
Set your defending forces anywhere on any world within the invasion route and they will attack it …..
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The PGCs would never have mechs if the clans did not have a ready supply of replacement mechs.
Aiden Pryde and Horse – as a freeborn warriors ….. what were they assigned?
And again 2 Battalions of PGCs personnel cannot garrison very many worlds in revolt ….. the whole idea of the PGCs is a huge joke!
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They would take anything from lesser units
Question: what units are below PGCs? – as even Solhama are above them?
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It was not using the clans traditions against them so much as declaring what it was after the win.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lincoln_Osis
What happed to Lincoln Osis when he solicited aid from the other Clans during Operation Surpent / Bulldog?
The Grand Council decided that the Jaguars should be left to their own devices – it was a Trial of Annihilation by the IS against the Smoke Jaguars …
Tradition Stands!!!!!
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Ulrik Kerensky
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ulric_Kerensky
What was the indictment charges against Ulric?
First, Colluding with ComStar in the battle of Tukayyid;
Second, The elevation of an agent of the Inner Sphere (namely Phelan Wolf) to the position of Khan; and
Third, Genocide – engaging in an attempt to destroy Clan Wolf’s genetic legacy by preventing three generations (15 years) of Wolf warriors from seeing serious combat.
Please explain how previous battlefields during every battle post year of peace had anything to do with the charges stipulated?
As per Clan Traditions ComStar were the defenders in the battle and they have the right to determine the battlefield!
Did you hear any Clan Khan and sa-Khan complaining about the terrain / world prior to the battle on Tukayyid?
It is a very poor warrior who starts berating the terrain on which they fought when they lose the war! Only a petulant child!
And by the way wasn’t the first two charges dismissed?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/05/20 09:26 PM
66.74.60.165
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So bidding that the clans will not attack the world again isn't enough? Why does this sound like changing the horses in the middle of the stream?
And with this, most star colonels don't have the authority to accept a bid like that. If not for the arrogance of the clans, they would have not even attempted to make the bid for not attacking again.
So this is a case of someone overreaching their authority to even agree to it.
What game are you talking about? Day 1 of the invasion had Batchalls issued for all fights? That is a complete lie, as the Falcons did not meet such standards. I will skip the fact that not a single batchall was issued in the periphery. So logic has fallen into the black hole of not understanding, or comprehending what is actually written in the game.
Wow. The idea that the IS had hundreds of thousands of RCTs strikes again. And the fact that you would strip every world of any defense in order to even try shows thru.
Maybe the lack of understanding that in large groups, the clans were even more formidable then they were in smaller units. Facing a galaxy is harder then facing a binary. Granted, there is something off with having all the RCT there fighting, which seems to have been lost in some of the canon fights. But no matter what you think, a full RCT will not fit on a single map in the game.
Might need to forget about supply lines and actually understand full strategy and tactics. With what is kept being suggested, there would be nothing left to worry about where supplies comes from because there would be nothing left.
Killing a civilian would still be murder, though the trueborn would not be prosecuted for it. The other way around would have the civilian strung up for doing so.
Do you actually read the stories? Marthe did NOT offer a challenge, and the fact that Victor offered her a way out that did not involve getting massive amounts of soldiers killed did not change this fact. And if I recall right, it was Adam that came up with the agreement there.
When did the Falcons get involved in the extinction of the Jaguars? Other then the unit that was on Huntress when the attack started? They did NOT participate in the refusal fight to defend the clans right to invade.
There were defending forces on quite a few worlds, yet Marthe went for Coventry. Why? Because she knew the LC/LA would send more forces there. The Falcons could have hit far more worlds with troops on them. And the fact that the clans, including the Falcons did indeed take lands without wiping everything out had happened. They left the remains of units for the PGC and second line to deal with. This is completely counter to what you just stated.
What does the PGC size and ability to hold a world, have to do with the clans would have taken every last mech from them if they did not have reserves?
Go reread the batchall issued by FOCHT. NOT Ulric. Focht was the one that issued the challenge. SO it was Ulric that should have decided when and where the fight would take place. Might need to get your facts straight, as more then a few things have been falsely stated here.
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Requiem
08/06/20 07:36 AM
1.158.133.26
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So bidding that the clans will not attack the world again isn't enough?
No, it is not.
You, need to make a request that will decrease their potential for future combat operations.
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most star colonels don't have the authority to accept a bid like that.
Agency Theory would say otherwise.
The Rules regarding a Batchall have been engrained in them sine the time they were in a sibko.
They have been sent out with clear orders.
They initiated the Batchall ritual.
The defensive IS forces replied correctly – demanding their right of Battlefied (to which they are already located) – and by the right of the Batchall they can demand something of equal value to the world, the people and the industries on the world they are attempting to conquer.
By all rights if they can issue the Batchall then they must also be able to agree to all the terms as stipulated by the IS defenders.
Or do the Clans have such pitiful commanding officers that they cannot even obey their own customs?
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What game are you talking about? Day 1 of the invasion had Batchalls issued for all fights?
All evidence to the contrary - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion
“often the first the defenders knew they were under attack was when the Clan forces issued their batchall.”
Stated PROOF- FACT they issued the Batchall …. Where is the proof otherwise - Book / Page Number / Sarna Wiki Page?
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The idea that the IS had hundreds of thousands of RCTs strikes again.
The twenty year update, however, indicated the following ‘Mech Regiments for each house…
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Duchy of Andurien 6 Regiments
Magistracy of Canopus 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Total D of A / M of C 18 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Taurian 14 Regiments
Alliance 3 Regiments
Other Periphery 10 Regiments
Comstar 50 + Regiments
The Clans however consisted of:-
Clan Wolf – 807 Battlemechs; 1610 elementals; 582 fighters; 2 warships; 82 jumpships; 242 dropships
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships
Ghost Bears 12 Clusters (60 Trinaries) 2 Warships; 27 Jumpships
Smoke Jaguars 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
Steel Vipers 7 Clusters (35 Trinaries) 1 Warship; 13 Jumpships
Nova Cats 9 Clusters (45 Trinaries) 14 Warships; 23 Jumpships
Assume Three Clusters to a Galaxy and for wolf / Falcon Four Trinaries to a Cluster
Wolf – 4 Galaxies
Falcon – 5 Galaxies
Bears – 4 Galaxies
Jaguars – 3 Galaxies
Vipers – 2 Galxies
Cats – 3 Galaxies Total 21 Galxies
At 210 RCTs made up of FC, DC FRR that’s 10 RCTs per Galaxy Made up of just FC, DC FRR
Jade Falcon – 15 Worlds
Ghost Bear – 15 worlds
Nova Cat – 10 worlds
Smoke Jaguar – 10 worlds
Steel Viper – 5 worlds
Wolf – 15 worlds ………….Total 70 worlds that can be created into multiple defensive lines …
So yes, as proven many times before, the IS does have the forces and yes they can move their forces to engage the Clans – they have a whole year during the “year of peace” and when you look at the amount of forces utilized during the 4th Succession War then considering the civil engineering ability of every house they can most definitely fortify every world in front of the clans current position - Thus demonstrating that they can definitely achieve a WW2 Italy defensive line
and if you assume the CC were annihilated during the war of 3039 add them in;
and if ComStars perfidy has been proven by this stage add in Comstar’s Com-Guard;
And if during the Dragoons Conference the Star League is reborn add in the entire IS;
So, How can anyone say it can’t be done ? They can’t !!!
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Do you actually read the stories? Marthe did NOT offer a challenge, and the fact that Victor offered her a way out that did not involve getting massive amounts of soldiers killed did not change this fact.
And yet a Batchall occurred Whitting, Coventry, Coventry Province, Lyran Alliance, 16 June 3058 ….
Malicious Intent, by Michael A. Stockpole
Page 262 – Victor Ian Steiner-Davion informed Khan Marthe Pryde he invoked the right of Safcon, and she granted it …;
Page 280 - 282 - Khan Marthe Pryde, “It is time for the bidding to be done … we bid all we have to defend the planet
and in response ….”….I, Caradoc Trevena, commander of the Titans, conqueror of Whitting, offer you, hegira ….”
As for Adam was not even on the planet at the time …. 3064 Melissia ?
As far as Marthe was concerned Coverntry was just a training exercise to sharpen her talons ….
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They did NOT participate in the refusal fight to defend the clans right to invade.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Great_Refusal
2.5 Clan Jade Falcon Versus ComStar
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They left the remains of units for the PGC and second line to deal with. This is completely counter to what you just stated.
And yet more problems with the writing of the Clan Invasion …
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Go reread the batchall issued by FOCHT. NOT Ulric. Focht was the one that issued the challenge. SO it was Ulric that should have decided when and where the fight would take place.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ulric_Kerensky
April 5 3052 - Focht proposed a Trial of Possession by proxy for Terra, to be fought on the Rasalhague world of Tukayyid between the twelve armies of Focht's Com Guards and the invading Clans …. After extensive negotiating, the IlKhan and the Precentor Martial reached terms that both could accept. If the Clans were victorious, ComStar would surrender Terra and place itself under the Clans' control. If ComStar won, the Clans would abide by a fifteen year truce, vowing not to advance any further towards Terra then Tukayyid.
And yet is was agreed to as the Clans (as the aggressor / attacker) plans were to attack Terra (ComStar / ComGuard as the defender) – Tukayyid was therefore to be proxy battle to ensure no battlefield damage would occur to Terra ….
ComStar gets to determine the location as well as the price for a clan defeat – 15 years.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/20 12:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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So by winning the promise that they will not attack that world again, isn't decreasing future hostilities? Logic has died here.
Ok. So you are saying Marthe did NOT issue a batchall when she attacked, but Victor used the clan traditions to deal with her.. Hmmm. So the initial attacker did not follow their own clans customs to challenge for any of the worlds they hit. They just attacked. Sounds like the ultra traditional Falcons did in fact NOT follow traditions with this.
The numbers provide say you do not understand warfare and having to protect other places besides where a conflict is happening. Yet in the other thread, you said that you would have to guard other areas. Sending all of your forces to the clan line means you have nothing to counter any issues that would come about when you pulled all of your forces from other places. And even with the increase in ship production, you would still not have enough to move a large chunk of the forces.
Despite what it seems you believe, every unit did not have it's own transportation department to move them when needed. This is why a lot of units died in the wars. They had no way off worlds.
Focht proposed a Trial of Possession by proxy for Terra
That statement is all that is needed. Focht made the bid. The clans were the defender in this bid. Doesn't matter if the clans were standing on Terra. Focht was the one to give the challenge.
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ghostrider
08/06/20 12:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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Whereas it was considered normal for the attacker to announce their presence with the batchall many Jade Falcon commanders dispensed with the tradition, citing the uncivilized nature of their enemies as reason enough to breach this rule of Clan etiquette.
Under Invasion Corridor - Jade Falcon.
It seems your reading has skipped over a lot of information.
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Requiem
08/06/20 10:38 PM
1.158.133.26
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Warning: The following contents represents many of my personal opinions on the underling errors regarding the Clan Invasion.
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So by winning the promise that they will not attack that world again, isn't decreasing future hostilities? Logic has died here.
How does shifting the invasion corridor to new worlds assist the long term defeat of the Clans. They will either jump over the world or move around it – spreading their invasion to new worlds.
What is ultimately required is their expulsion from the Inner Sphere and this would ultimately require the destruction of their military capability to wage war.
First, the destruction of their military;
Second, the destruction of their industries to manufacture war; and
Third, the destruction of their culture – that part of their culture that demands they wage war – the idea that they are supermen and as such have the right to rule based upon the premise they have the best military – a might makes right attitude.
This shows a complete lack of understanding as to the Clan Invasion – a failure to understand as to what does it mean to be when one society imposes their system upon another and the repercussions of said imposition?
With the Invasion the Inner Sphere, by the Clans, it is now in a war to death over ideology of what freedom means and represents – what government structure will rule the human race … the libertine government of democracy / neo-classical government of the Great Houses that allows it’s people many freedoms as to who and what they want to be or the Clan’s autocratic / fascist / tyranny minority-warrior-rule system based upon the DNA supremacy of individuals who believe they are super-human who impose a destiny upon their people and remove all freedoms as to speech, thought, self determination, travel etc etc.
This is what the Star League is ultimately fighting against – not the physical representation but what they represent ideologically - and if the leaders of the Inner Sphere cannot understand this then there is something seriously wrong with their understanding as to the Clan invasion’s objectives …. The invasion is NOT ultimately over territory, it IS about the future of human rights – which system will be imposed upon the other !!!!
This is why the IS Star League Mk. 2 will not dissolve and why attacking just one Clan is completely irresponsible – this is war to death until one realm falls – either the IS falls or Clan space / Kerensky Space falls – conquered by the other!
Thus the entire space in-between the two realms will become a battlefield until one side will impose their system upon the other. This is why the current version of the story completely lacks comprehension as to what the war truly represents.
Re-write Please – the will of the people should not be subjugated / shackled to that of a false ideology that does not understand the human spirits’ desire to be free.
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Sounds like the ultra traditional Falcons did in fact NOT follow traditions with this.
What this shows is that Khan Marthe followed Clan traditions on multiple occasions … and as she DID follow these traditions this demonstrates that the Falcons as a whole ARE still following ALL clan traditions at this stage!
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The numbers provide say you do not understand warfare and having to protect other places besides where a conflict is happening.
Really ????
Go back and look at the numbers and the situation again …
DC, FRR and DC have entered into a mutual defense agreement against the Clans …
The CC are dead
Thus only the FWL and the Periphery states remain – the FC has committed only 125 – 150 Regiments out of their total amount of 300 Regiments – the DC gave committed 60-70 out of their 100 regiments and the FRR have committed everything they have remaining to the “Gothic Line”. <and then if the Com Guard are added add more forces … and if the FWL are added even more forces.>
Second Army, a percentage of the remaining forces of the DC forces and a second FC army are dispatched to attack internal Clan held worlds to disrupt / destroy logistics …
And Third Army is sent into the Deep Periphery to disrupt Clan logistics fleets / worlds they are using as forward bases of operations.
There is more than enough forces of all of these operations … and for guarding key areas – if push comes to shove this is why you have reserve / home guard.
Remember a war with the Clans is a TOTAL WAR SCENARIO.
Either the IS come together as one Star League and One SLDF or you die separately there is no other choice!
And in reality this is the ONLY way moving forward post year of peace <Unless you want to start a First Succession War with the Clans.>
Massive rewrite required !!!!!
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Despite what it seems you believe, every unit did not have it's own transportation department to move them when needed.
This is why
First, during the year of pace you get all your forces into a position; then
Secondly, you to take all the transport you need from the Clans.
Can anyone explain why, given the figures supplied, not one of the houses when against the Clan’s Jump-ships – as shown in the 4th Succession War the Lyrans orphan program worked !!!! So why not against the Clans ?
Quote:
Focht made the bid.
Dictionary Definition – Proxy – the authority to represent something else !!!
What happens if the Clans arrive at Terra and Com-Star and the Com-Guard are still on the planet - are the Clans ….
a. The defenders
b. Tourists requesting a Visa
c. The attackers
d. Lost and looking for directions
Thus is Focht in a position of
a. Receiving the bid
b. Providing a visa
c. Declaring a bid
d. Providing directions
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many Jade Falcon commanders dispensed with the tradition, citing the uncivilized nature of their enemies as reason enough to breach this rule of Clan etiquette.
Many does not in any way mean all ….. many is a highly subjective term and is open to interpretation as to a quantifiable figure… so when does a quantity of a large number of people become ‘many’ as compared to the total number of people who initiate a Batchall
Ie. if 100 people are allowed to initiate a Batchall what is the figure when many applies? Two, ten ,fifty ….. each person will have a subjective nature as to when this kicks in ….? So when that becomes a quantifiable figure – let me know., until then I am going to keep it on the low side …
First it is just the Falcons not all off the Clans …..
Second if you position for your forces in an anti clan kill box from the start will they a.) attack; or b.) just sit outside and cry foul like a petulant child demanding you come out and attack them?
If you build a kill box the Clans will come …. That is unless they have no longer capable to fight ….
It is too engrained in their DNA not to attack.
So again the point in mute – and also how does this lack of tradition look to those who do hold to tradition and to the other Clans at this stage?
However once an attrition warfare program is adopted the clans idea of war as well as their psychological view of war is about to shift from nice clean dues, with nice clean rules, surgical strikes within a prearranged circle of equals ….. into the absolute horror of war that is more akin to WW1 trench warfare where you are in the mud and death and terror of bombardments etc. ….. does anyone realize that the Clan psyche is not geared / hard wired for this type of warfare whereas the IS units have been engaged in this type of warfare since the start of the First Succession War … also the Clans in no way have the support Corps that the IS have …. Any protracted long standing drawn out attrition battle favors the IS and not the Clans … they cannot fight a protracted war … they just do not have the ability to conduct a single war on a single world over an extended period of time as the only support they have is limited to their Dropships!
Thus if they move more than 50Km from their drop-ships they become vulnerable to logistical resupply? Who is going to take the resupply out to them and on what vehicles?
Sorry but the Clan invasion as written has too many holes in it to be considered ‘a factual series events’ of any army unit invading another realm 6months distant from their home bases.
Re-write please!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/20 11:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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Having a secured base where you can hit the enemy in the rear and not be hit back does nothing to stop further attacks? Did I miss tactics 101 here?
The issue with this was the lack of resources to actually do anything significant with it.
The fight to the death over ideology was started when the SL died. It was still going on when the clans invaded. The intensity had diminished, but in the end, only one ideology could come out dominant. Even when two were close, one would eventually have to bow to the other. The statement in Transformers... Until all are one.
Again, the use of the alt to justify saying the canon version is wrong doesn't work. I could say the SDF 1 popped into the IS and started removing Comstar from Terra, then worked outwards. Does this mean that canon is wrong as they could do very little to stop it? It just does not work.
What happens in the future does not change the fact that Focht made the bid. It might be to stop Terra from suffering, but he was the one to challenge for possession of Terra. Had the clans reached Terra and challenged, then Focht would have been the defender.
The example you give is the very one someone that will use nukes would say to justify their use. You were going to attack my world, so I stopped it now. And this is not apples and oranges. It is the VERY base of people justifying bad mistakes.
The statement made by you said that ALL the clans issued the batchall before attacking. This is not true. They did not follow their own traditions. Might be, because they realized they would be in for more of a fight then they thought, and to lose battles that early in the invasion would embarrass them to no end. Using the excuse of the IS being less then the Dark Caste was just a dodge. They were already on the path to win at all costs and not worry about following the honor road, as it gets you losses.
Might want to read the wiki, as the fight for the IS had already started to change the idea of their honor warfare. The IS had gone to ground and still fought against the clans, even after the 'superior' warriors would have given up. The Falcons had to leave more troops behind to deal with such issues. Part of why there were not taking as much as they wanted to.
The rewrite would have nothing based on the alt, as the alt does not exist to the developers. So you would still say a rewrite was needed. This is supposed to be you presenting an alternative to canon, yet you are saying canon has to be rewritten to your views. If you don't see the failure of logic in this yet, I don't think you ever will.
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Requiem
08/07/20 04:18 AM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
Having a secured base where you can hit the enemy in the rear and not be hit back does nothing to stop further attacks? Did I miss tactics 101 here?
1. What was the Clans response to Wolcott – Embargo of the planet by introducing their Navy Warships – so unless the IS is willing to place to multiple warships over the planet and is willing to fight off clan warships this may pose an issue for future ingress and egress to and from the planet;
2. Only one of the Clans has promised not to attack it – thus making it a target for every other Clan;
3. In the event the Clan you fought against to win the world, no longer believes the IS deserves to treated the same as another Clan – ie. no Batchall anymore – then why do they need to honor their previous agreements? Thus opening the world to further attacks by the Clan you won it from in the first place; (limited time of utilizing the world as a base / difficulty in using the world due to an embargo of Clan Naval Warships and fighters.)
4. Tangibility of asking Omni-Mechs etc – reverse engineering and denying replacement Mechs to Clan front line forces – also transferring Clan Omni Mechs to IS Units in order to increase their combat potential in fighting the Clans.
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The issue with this was the lack of resources to actually do anything significant with it.
Was there any limited resources when it came to utilizing Wolcott as a base of operations?
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ideology
Think about the consequences as to fighting a war based upon the future of human freedom one side or the other must be completely destroyed. Till one side or the other is dead or under the boot of the other!
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Again, the use of the alt to justify saying the canon version is wrong doesn't work.
Really? Please explain all the massive holes and how they actually make any sense whatsoever – example Turtle Bay doing nothing is not an option; The year of peace (which should have been renamed as the year of preparedness) ; Sibkos – replacement personnel; Logistics and the Tyranny of distance – and the IS doing absolutely nothing to stop it; the 15 year period of the truce; the Falcon / Wolf war and the lack of a Lyran response or the reaping of warriors from the Jaguars and the Clan Hoe worlds to return to 100% operational efficiency; Closed societies Vs Open Societies and the use of psy-ops; resistance fighters ; Technology – The IS can make clan weapons but chooses not too due to budget cuts (and yet during WW2 how many billions were spent on building the Gadget?) ‘ whist Hanse was alive why was he sitting on his hands doing nothing?; loss of frontline forces to Resistance fighters and the introduction of PGCs; etc.
– do I really need to go on? The clan invasion story is one big bad joke – there is absolutely no credibility within the story as to the main arc, and the majority of sub arcs whatsoever …. They may be some good stories but when placed into the wider historical context they just don’t make the grade … It just does not work
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the fact that Focht made the bid.
Proxy ……. Please refer above as this was the logic used to justify how he achieved the 15 years peace.
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ALL the clans issued the batchall before attacking.
Then find the evidence …. I have provided detailed evidence regarding the Falcons …. Yours?
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the fight for the IS had already started to change the idea of their honor warfare.
Contact with the enemy changes everything ….
Still doesn’t change the fact that Clan rules were being obeyed ….
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So you would still say a rewrite was needed.
Absolutely – just make it in such a way as there are no holes in the development of the story!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/07/20 11:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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From all the stories I have seen on Wolcott, it isn't warships that are the threat there. It was fighters.
Second, At the time, no one figured the Jaguars would be wiped out, so no clan would go that far into their invasion zone to strike the world. There were more important targets, and the leave the world free would be an embarrassment to the Jaguars. A shining example of their defeat because they are inferior, from the clans point of view.
The Jaguars were more tradition bound then the Falcons. For them to just say honoring their deals would be turning their back on the way of the clan.
At this time, the clans still thought the IS was weak and unable to do much. The clan commander thought there was no way the DC would defeat him. So even if Theodore had asked for a warship, the commander would have still agreed. Or maybe, as I don't know exactly how much each commander viewed a world like that would be.
Yes. There was a lack of resource to use Wolcott as a base. If the DC had the resources, they could have cleared the system of Jaguar ships entirely, and kept it that way. Then it would have made a great location to strike from. As it was, the dropship pick up and drop off was one of those timed things and needed to be done in secret. The Black Thorns novel had this spelled out.
Didn't really think about the fact that the entire succession wars were about destroying one sides entire way of doing things, did you? The clans were a little more harsh then some, but for someone in the FS, being taken over by the DC or CC would have been the same thing.
The holes in the story line are a problem, but saying your vision is the only way to fix it, is what is wrong. As said, I could introduce the SDF 1 and start wiping out the IS. I could say that is the only way it could possibly go. And that statement would be completely wrong. There are a lot of things that would happen differently, and honestly, there would be very little that would match up.
Your alt has merit, but still has not close some of the very holes you are complaining about. It adds to them. The IS having the resources you suggest, would mean the clans would have attacked earlier, or not at all. The entire Amaris war would never have happened, since removing nukes from the game would prevent the devastation that was wrought to put the IS in their situation in the first place. Amaris would not have gotten close to Richard, if security had did it's job, as well as Kerensky's staff.
This is not even touching the numbers problem.
The 'poor' writing, about the distances was the developers way of making sure the IS survived the clans at that point. It was a weakness put in to help with the tech difference as well as the skills difference. Just as the honor road was put in to help the IS stop the clans. Not sure if the developers had in mind for the clans to become emperors, and split like they did in the later era's but that did leave room for more fights. Breaking up the FC was forseeable but then it really shouldn't have happened in the first place.
The reason the clan invasion is so 'poor' for you, is you don't like it, so will come up with every reason to say it was bad. It could have used a little, well a lot more, fact checking then it had, but otherwise it wasn't that bad. The suggestion that the DC start kamikaze attacks on the clans for Turtle Bay, ignores what happened during the succession wars. It was rife with such destruction, and they would never have allowed it to go unpunished then. So that logic falls flat.
The assassination of the coordinator a few times, would have had them striking those responsible with such actions, yet had they done so, the DC would not exist.
The location and battle were for Terra, and Focht bid for the fight. There were a lot of times when units moved a fight from a specific area, to avoid destroying it. As Ulric said their ultimate goal was Terra, they had not gotten to the point to actually challenge for it. He could well have said their ultimate goal was to destroy all the houses, and it would still not change the fact that Focht issued the bid. This is simple logic. Not sure why it is so difficult to figure it out, as there was a lot more complex things happening in the game.
Focht could have tried to make the fight on Stranamechty. The challenger does not get the option of when and where. Granted he didn't even know the world existed at this time, but it still remains a fact. Ulric and the clans were the defender in this challenge.
Logic fail again. You said all the clans issued the challenge, yet it was shown that the Jade Falcons did not follow that entirely. And you say you proved it, yet in print, it says not all did. Not sure why you think you original statement is true, as it was shown about the Falcons.
This, with other examples of the logic you show, I can understand why you still don't seem to get the story and game.
Again, you left out the context of that statement. You would demand a rewrite every time, as they would never follow your vision. That changes the entire statement. Which if you constantly leave out things like that in statements, it goes back to why you don't understand the storyline.
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Requiem
08/08/20 01:12 AM
1.158.133.26
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it isn't warships that are the threat there. It was fighters.
Where there are Fighters there must also be Drop-Ships. How do you maintain Fighters and their support Drop-Ships over a planet (and that they are unable to obtain any logistical support from) long term?
Support from a Warships sounds the only viable means of protecting the Drop-ships from an IS retaliation force.
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no clan would go that far into their invasion zone to strike the world.
And if the world is against the border (or even close to) with another clan?
And how many other clans would like to put a knife in the back of another Clan by demonstrating their greater martial prowess – by taking the world they were unable to do?
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The Jaguars were more tradition bound then the Falcons. For them to just say honoring their deals would be turning their back on the way of the clan.
Thus they will uphold all traditions – even the Batchall – allowing the defender to choose the Battlefield – Reparations in the event they lose?
As for reparations – what is the equal value of a world? …. No matter how you look at it – any captured Clansman will inform their captor of the Clans Traditions and if they do not know by then, by the end of the Dragoon Conference they will know all Clan Traditions.
And from the year of Peace – or should I call it by a more apt name the “year of preparedness” what the Clans should have faced from this point on should have been a vastly different military.
However what we got was a continuation of the same tactics and the same one unit to a world nonsense that was occurring prior to the “year of peace” – not one unit was moved – not one attempt to join forces not one engineering battalion creating an entirely new Battlefield upon which would be anvil the new IS army could act as the hammer to pound the Clans – not one attempt at manufacturing an infantry weapon that would provide them with a longer range defense against the “Toads”. – not one unit being reinforced with additional armor, fighter, infantry and VTOL forces – also where are the IS Onmi-Weapon systems at this stage – where are the IS warships en mass (pocket warships that are faster than the clans and maintain just one long range weapon capable of standing off and destroying any Clan Warship – a new Bismarck Class?
Sorry to say but the canon story gets a little repartitions and has no value from a military point of view by this stage – the cracks shown in the first waves have now become vast chasms as it is clear to see that all future battles are rigged in favor of the Clans. What should be considered to be massive issues – The tactics the IS has been utilizing - Sibko replacement numbers – tyranny of distance with regards to logistics – garrison numbers (PGCs) and partisans – cultural differences that should have led to a nuclear exchange between the DC and the Jags – the idea that Clans can fight is protracted battles with no support crews / vehicles other than their drop-ships – the idea that all battles are just Mech Vs. Mech – have all been paper-mached over to create a joke of an over-arching story going forward …
Post “Year of Peace” – where is the Battle of Inchon ? at the very minimum this should have been included at this point in time !
Some of the stories are interesting to read but the over-arching story is completely lacking – demonstrating that it was rushed to completion – and the completion was a pre-ordained joke – thus the need for a massive re-write.
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Didn't really think about the fact that the entire succession wars were about destroying one sides entire way of doing things, did you?
Yes, there is even an entire essay in the forum on the subject.
M.A.D. as a strategy to obtain dominance and become the next First Lord may sound seductive in its application – quick – efficient – However the idea of using WMDs has a massive flaw in the retaliation, and the massive loss of everything military. Especially when you are not prepared for the counterattack by retaining your military infrastructure above ground and known to the enemy, and maintaining your government upon a single world – again not in secret and upon warships.
The IS is just too vast for a single House to succeed – the only way to win is to conquer a House with its infrastructure intact and use both Houses military infrastructure to build a new army to take on the remaining three Houses one House at a time!
As shown by the creation of the F-C.
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The clans were a little more harsh then some
A complete and utter understatement – they would give the German Einsatzgruppen a run for their money on barbarity ….
And they are not the same as being taken over by the FC or the DC …. They pretty much leave the economies of the worlds intact and unharmed. The Clans totally destroy the pre-established social networks – Castes – removing children from schools so that they can go work in factories – no self determination – no money ….. the clans are the complete antithesis of that of the IS people’s society.
This is why it is war to the death of one system or another !
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but saying your vision is the only way to fix it, is what is wrong.
And where have I ever said that ? How many times have I stated that mine is my view and if people want to adopt my view it is their decision.
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The IS having the resources you suggest, would mean the clans would have attacked earlier, or not at all.
What happened to the FC 280 Regiments as per the 20 year update ?
How accurate were the reports supplied to the Clan Home World by the Dragoons if they were given orders by their Kan to go rogue and help the IS.
No matter how many forces the IS had or how technologically advanced they were or they had re-established the Star League the Clans would have attacked – Hubris is wonderful thing !
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The 'poor' writing, about the distances was the developers way of making sure the IS survived the clans at that point.
Wrong! It is making sure the Clans Survived – the same with sibko numbers – rigging the system in the favor of the attackers – the Clans !
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The reason the clan invasion is so 'poor' for you, is you don't like it, so will come up with every reason to say it was bad.
Mismanaged – poor research, on so many fronts – poor tactics and strategy – poor writing and plot development – poor everything – in my opinion
What authors (other than those use by Battletech) are acceptable? Sven Hassel, Ernie Pyle, Richard Harding Davis ?
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The suggestion that the DC start kamikaze attacks on the clans for Turtle Bay, ignores what happened during the succession wars. It was rife with such destruction, and they would never have allowed it to go unpunished then.
A complete lack of understanding as to samurai and the idea of Japanese Face is the problem here !
The Coordinator has NO CHOICE but to strike at the Jaguars with nukes at this stage – even House Honor would have NO CHOICE but to demand a retaliatory strike !
Again go and read all the literature regarding WW2 samurai and the concept of face when it came to Japanese POWs !
This shows a complete lack of research and understanding !
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The assassination of the coordinator a few times, would have had them striking those responsible with such actions,
And yet the DCMS did strike …..
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it would still not change the fact that Focht issued the bid. This is simple logic.
Refer to any dictionary – PROXY – and then extend the logic from there …
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And you say you proved it, yet in print, it says not all did.
And yet in print I have the Khan of the Jade Falcons entering into a Batchall with Victor Steiner-Davion …. And then there are multiple other examples in print of high ranking Clans Officers obeying their rules and customs during very important occasions !
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it goes back to why you don't understand the storyline.
The problem is that I understand all too well – from a n analytical and historical perspective ….. analysis of which demonstrates a lack of understanding as to military tactics, logistics, replacement personnel, reverse engineering, sociology …. And the list goes on and on ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/20 02:15 AM
66.74.60.165
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How does anyone support a fighter unit in a system?
They tend to ship in supplies if the system can not make what they need. It is NOT required to have warships in the system. So again, the only viable means is incorrect.
Some bondsmen may inform the IS about the clan customs. Not all of them will. Some would rather die then even think about serving the IS.
The IS got a bit from the year of peace. First off the Dragoon meeting was a bonus for those dealing with the clans. The fact the FWL was making upgrade kits for the front line was another large bonus. The work on the Gunslinger mech was a third bonus. So the concept of NOTHING happened is false. I do agree that things like the supposed mass movement of FS forces to help shore up the LC seemed to disappear.
No one helped each other? Again, reread the actual print, not put in what you want. The rescue of Luthien is a very big helping each other. The sharing of data, as well as both the FC and DC moving forces off the Draconis March borders was a big help.
And when did the invading armies of any story have the 'favor' of being better, not been in the story line? Fighting against long odds is normal. The ability to bleed the clans dry was possible, but far to expensive in terms of lives.
Actually, taking systems does upset the economy of both sides. Losing or gaining trading opportunities changes everything. Having to supply and retool factories, least the enemy not build everything on site, means changing some of the designs. Changing supply lines to bring in resources, if you actually have extra, is yet another exmaple of changing the economy.
Yeah. It wasn't like the DC and CC executed people. Now how do you change a society into thinking the way you want them to? Start with the children if you plan on a long stay. Not only do the keep parents from revolting, but once they start following your ways, the future means less resistance. It is a valid tactic, though one I don't really approve of.
You constantly say that things are the only viable solution. That is definitely says nothing else will work.
The idea of presenting things is not really being done here, but saying canon is wrong, as my view is the only way to fix things.
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ghostrider
08/08/20 02:38 AM
66.74.60.165
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The amount of forces the IS had would have changed the entire invasion. The clans would have invaded sooner, as they would want to stop the IS from getting to many units that they could not deal with. Or they would have seen the folly, even thru their rose colored glasses.
As you suggested they have warships earlier, this would mean the clans would have to move quickly or risk having warships fighting each other. This would definitely lead to more bombardments, as well as just having dropships wiped out in space.
How is the distance the clans have to ship things a means to keep them alive? Operation Serpent showed that is false. The fact that the clans had to go so far, meant the IS had the ability to play the attrition game. If the clans were much closer, you would have seen the bids getting broken, or other clans joining the fight. The rebellious nature of the IS worlds seen to making sure the clans could not use the PGCs and such to attack worlds. Or even garrison them quickly.
The novelists did not seem to follow the game closely, and the developers didn't seem to keep an eye on them as close as they should have. Violation of the rules happened more often then should have. It is possible that the developers were not set on what should happen. It looked like a reaction to the FC being formed. There had to be something to break it apart, and it did. Took some time, but the clans were the reason Victor did not pay attention to the FC. His actions were to keep the clans back.
A complete lack of understanding of the Samurai on your part seems to be the issue. The DC would not have survived had the DCMS acted like you suggest against the clans before then. The succession wars had nukes destroying worlds, not just a single city on a single world. Had the DC acted like you wanted them to, they would have lost so many warriors in the 1st succession war, I would doubt they would survive the 2nd. So your push is off in it's timing.
Focht challenge for the possession of Terra. The battle ground was chosen that was not on Terra. Why is this so hard to understand? The clans have constantly fought over things in other areas. To take a factory, they did not fight at the factory. The challenge is the last word. Doesn't matter where the fight takes place, Focht was the challenger.
Did the Jade Falcon khans leading the invasion in 3050 issue the batchall? Not all the time. Did Marthe issue it? Not at all. She accepted the batchall from Victor. There is no honor in attacking without issuing one. The entire Marthe invasion had no challenges sent BEFORE Victor was there.
So ALL of them is incorrect.
So far, the alt has had more then a few issues that does not follow tactics, supply lines, replacement personnel and such. And worse, You have tried to build on the very things you say are wrong with the game. Canon does NOT use your numbers. So arguing they are wrong because of that is why you don't understand this. Again. The alt is not the only viable solution to the problems. It is but one persons vision. One that a majority of the players don't seem to follow. You are the first I have heard that says the entire story of the game needs to be redone, then say it has to be your way.
I have said the rule changes invalidated more then a few things, and they needed to be updated. I did not say they had to be done my way or no way.
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Requiem
08/08/20 09:47 AM
1.158.133.26
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How does anyone support a fighter unit in a system?
The question that was being answered:-
In a system such as Wolcott where they are blockading the world and are unable to receive supplies from the world they are blockading ?
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Some bondsmen may inform the IS about the clan customs. Not all of them will.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bondsman
…. held as an indentured servant …. to work dutifully for their new masters and 1st Somerset Strikers – demonstrates how NOT to treat your bondsman.
Yes some may not discuss their traditions …. However how many will ?
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The IS got a bit from the year of peace.
Really?
The IS has a year to threaten ComStar with total annihilation when you spies testify as to their perfidy with the Clans;
You have a year to increase partisan activity throughout the Clan OZ – start PsyOps against non Warrior Clansmen and PGCs units – increase assassinations – increase Black Box activity throughout the Clan OZ and IS Forces etc;
The IS has a year to reform the Star League – and establish a new SLDF – PsyOps, - Paint all IS forces in the same colors as SLDF + add the Cameron Star to all their vehicles;
The IS has a year to assemble a defensible force to engage the next Clan Attack Wave – by FC, FRR, DC, ComGuard and Wolfs Dragoons;
The IS has a year to establish multiple Gothic Lines on worlds in front of the Clan’s OZ
The IS has a year to assemble a force to engage in a Battle of Inchon – from FC and DC space;
The IS has a year to assemble a force to engage Clan Logistics Fleets in the Deep Periphery – From FC and DC space; and
The IS has a year to retrain your existing forces with regards to new anti clan techniques and command education;
The IS has a year to implement a total war industrial system within every house.
… and the canon story - absolutely nothing ?
Given the CIC for the FC is Hanse Davion and the DC has Theodore and Takashi Kurita, this is the minimum that should have been considered achievable ……
As for upgrade kits – they should be reverse engineered Clan Tech weapons ….
As for the Gunslinger, I would prefer the Ventilator – then there should be the first IS Omnis …
Minimalism does not equate to a Total War Anti Clan Effort !
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It wasn't like the DC and CC executed people.
Warriors no longer - War Criminals !
Taking children as hostages, where is a Clans honor now ? The Clan that starts this folly will start a war against the entire population of every IS planet … what ever happened to the conduct of war from the 4th Succession War in the 1980s ? There was a time this would never have been considered.
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The amount of forces the IS had would have changed the entire invasion.
Then add more clans to the invasion force if you believe they require more ….
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this would mean the clans would have to move quickly or risk having warships fighting each other.
Having a navy means having naval engagements, having increased naval bombardments means returning to the First Succession war !
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How is the distance the clans have to ship things a means to keep them alive?
Its not going to keep them going … tyranny of time and distance …. Points to consider …
- tyranny of time and distance dominates strategic plans and concepts – movement times across space is measured in months;
- Deploy on force projection missions from Clan Space to the Inner Sphere;
- Transportation of ALL consumables – time to resupply / reinforce - in order to effectively sustain commitments and engage in competence;
- Fostering a secure resupply fleet – regional security and development;
- Any delay (insufficient forces) creates a political-military government gap that will allow insurrection to grow – counterinsurgency struggle against guerillas;
- Pre-positioning large quantities of consumables / replacement personnel should have been considered;
- Consider the inevitable large scale casualties and how this will affect operations;
- Victory – a negotiated settlement with an intractable opponent 6 months distant will be impossible and given the Inner Spheres history may involve a massive nuclear retaliation (Given the history of the Successions wars – what was the Clans response if the find themselves in a First Succession War Scenario?). It is not as if they can respond with all due alacrity. And what happens if the Inner Sphere decides to wage a First Succession War upon within Clan space in the event they discover the their home worlds locations? This is a very real possibility considering the level of barbarity the Great Houses have gone to during the Succession Wars – so what are thie plans for these eventualities?
- Thus does the Invasion have a critical mass to fight 6 months distant as a forward deployed power?
- The need to consider operational tempo – the need for a strategically responsive force that can dominate across all operations.
- Logistics issues – strategically deployment will require technological solution to dilemmas that were never addressed within the current canon story.
- What is the deployment time of a multidivisional IS force in reaching the Clan OZ – how many can they retaliate with at any one time – shifting battles from dues to attrition – compared to the time the Clans require;
- All requires superb mobility – and yet how when you are 6 moths distant and with so few Jump-Ships (refer to each Clans Touman they assigned to each navy – very small numbers noted)?
Unfortunately Clan Blinkers when it came to many of these issues were never investigated and explored to their true detrimental effect – they were just glossed over – and as such turning the invasion into a joke !
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The novelists did not seem to follow the game closely, and the developers didn't seem to keep an eye on them as close as they should have.
Editor in chief ? and simple communication ?
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A complete lack of understanding of the Samurai on your part seems to be the issue.
Have you read The Hakkenden or even watched the anime ? or even studied Hideki Tojo ? Facts are required …. Not opinions.
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Focht was the challenger.
Proxy ….. Focht was in the position of Defense …. The Clans were the aggressor ….. if Foct did nothing and Terra was finally attacked by the Clans what position would Focht be in ?
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Did the Jade Falcon khans leading the invasion in 3050 issue the batchall?
Yes … until there is evidence to contrary.
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The entire Marthe invasion had no challenges sent BEFORE Victor was there.
No one can say as no one wrote that scene into any book … however, given that Marthe DID accept Hegira is all the evidence I need to demonstrate that she was most definitely still obeying Clan rules.
Further Proof – The Great Refusal – still obeying Clan Rules ……
So all of them correct.
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So arguing they are wrong because of that is why you don't understand this.
Really since when did I relinquish my freedom of opinion and speech ?
If I believe I have discovered a factual error within the game I will point it out …
And as stated before I have not stated that the only solution is mine … I have only provided an alternate version for others to use if they are so inclined or to use one of my scenarios to make there’s a little more enjoyable …. And any how what is so wrong with creating an alternate history, for others to enjoy, if you believe the original to be lacking savoir faire ? I leave it in the hands of all to choose to use my suggestions or not ….
I just find a more revamped story is required in order to explain the holes that make no sense whatsoever ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/20 12:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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Is there any other planets and such that the clans can get supplies from?
But more to the point, it is not necessary to leave a warship in the system. It may well be more of an issue to do so. But it would at least give one of them something to do other then patrols. Oh wait. They would still be doing patrols.
A bondsman is not going to just give up information, but respond to specific questions. So unless you ask about specific things, the information will not be forth coming.
Where in any of the print, says that house spies were the ones that found out Comstar was helping the clans? I don't remember a single spy coming thru with this. It was figured out with the way things went during an invasion of a world. It was only when Focht removed Walterly that this was confirmed.
As pointed out, the clan civilians were not really part of the invasion until the Ghost Bears started moving theirs. So what non warrior clansmen are you talking about to try to pervert with the 'psy-ops'? What Chandy and a few others did, was psy-ops, by sending luxuries into the clan homeworlds, and the diamond sharks were more then happy to do it for them.
Again comes the mythical forces popping out the back side in order to be sent behind the lines. They may have had the people to do so, but the risk of the ships would stop most attempts. Now it is possible that if they were going to raid some worlds, dropping of trained guerillas was done, but not just sending in the units. Eventually, the population would become angry that every assassination would mean more of them suffering for such an act. The clans did not stop to punish innocent people for such things.
Static defenses proved very ineffective against the clans. So making worlds of traps would do nothing more then piss off the clans.
But to answer the original question. You said the IS gained nothing from the year of peace. That statement is false. Brining up things that should have happened does not negate the fact your statement was false.
Still don't comprehend that customs of different nations may well be opposite of each other? For the clans, children were tested for their abilities and put into the castes. This has happened for over 250 years. This wasn't something they just started with the invasion. For them, it is criminal that the IS did not have something like it to get the full potential out of the masses. My teachings say doing so is wrong, but it is part of their society. The funny thing is, schools don't go that far, but they do take children away from their parents for a chunk of the day to teach them.
And for the clans, the children were not hostages, but being sent to the proper training program.
The addition to the invasion would have changed it completely. But given your want of advanced numbers of troop and equipment, the clans could not have done more then piss off the IS and get the counter invasion going before long, as well as not needing Comstar to fight them. This is on top of the fact that if the IS had more forces, Waterly would not have risked Comstar by helping the Clans. It was the idea that the houses couldn't do anything if they did find out that helped the decision to help the clans.
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ghostrider
08/08/20 12:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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So did you consider the increased chance of bombardments when you said the IS should have warships? The matter of when, not if, bombardments would start comes to mind. It is possible that before the invasion, the IS would have already started bombardments with warships against each other.
The fact still stands that if the DC reacted like you suggested, they would never have survived the succession wars, much less lived to the clan invasion. Their forces would have done the charge of ages, and all died in their rage to retain the 'honor' that was stained during the succession wars. The FS and LC bombed more then a few DC worlds, that would have required a full scale retaliation. And that would have allowed the FS/LC to plan more traps to wipe out larger chunks of the DCMS. Which would have driven even more into the rage of avenging the honor of those fallen. Something that seems to allude your entire thinking, while suggesting they would have to retaliate to the Turtle Bay issue. They would not be around to even witness this.
The Samurai surrendered WWII with only one condition. The emperor remain in power. This is not a nation that would rather die then be humiliated. This is not questioning the real people of Japan, but according to your vision, would never happen. The use of the nukes would have caused them to go fanatical beyond what they were.
Once the clans got to Terra, then he would be the defender. But he challenged Ulric to avoid the fighting on Terra. That little fact does not seem to register in your schemes. And Focht challenged all the clans, not just waited until they had figured out who would invade Terra. So instead of 1 clan, he faced them all.
So the evidence saying many of the falcon leaders did not issue a batchall isn't proof that not ALL of them did? So this is nothing more then trying to start/keep an argument going, but ignoring the facts? That is getting more and more common, as statements are being proven wrong.
Obeying clan traditions meant issuing a batchall before invading some one. Victor did not know of the other factors into pushing Marthe off Coventry. That is the ONLY reason why she accepted. If not for Vlad, she would have found a way to fight Victor's forces, or something else. She though it would happen until Hiegra was offered. It gave her the way out while keeping face. The conclusion with this is that Marthe was not honoring the traditions, so much as being given an out that would allow her to retain her honor. If she was honoring tradition, she would not have left, but fought it out. Never giving up a world that was won in blood is something you said.
Still not going to accept the statement of 'only viable solution' means only way to do is it written? And saying it could not happen any other way was another statement that comes up? That is saying that only your way is the correct one.
Saying that there are issues and saying there are multiple ways of dealing with it, is how to present an alternative. No one is exactly correct or wrong. It is supposed to be a different take on the issues. Wording, which normally follows intent, is where the facts have to be established. Canon is wrong, because the alt says so is saying exactly that.
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Requiem
08/08/20 10:04 PM
1.158.133.26
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How does anyone support a fighter unit a system?
Thus your plan to Embargo a Wolcott like planet is to rely upon aero-space fighter drop-ship carriers, supported by Jump-ships and their support drop-ships?
How is this going to be an effective embargo? – too close to the planet and you risk attack from the fighters / capitol missiles on world – too far and you risk being ineffective by being outpaced / out positioned by incoming / outgoing forces.
How long will it take to build a base on another planet / moon and will that base be effective considering the elliptical nature of planets – and then the issue to tyranny of time and distance once more must be considered in order to determine the effective nature of the fighter embargo.
And as the Clans forgot to bring in mobile space stations this too becomes a non issue ….
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A bondsman is not going to just give up information, but respond to specific questions. So unless you ask about specific things, the information will not be forth coming.
Since when ? …. Tiaret Nevversan ……
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Where in any of the print, says that house spies were the ones that found out Comstar was helping the clans?
Logic …. Partisans know that ComStar is administering worlds for Clans, they could find out the truth on the matter …. when the partisan unit is resupplied with weapons / special forces assassins from House Units what do you expect the partisans to do …. keep silent on the matter?
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It was only when Focht removed Walterly that this was confirmed.
This assumption only works if all Houses do NOT assist any partisan activity on any of the Clan OZ worlds (in their tactical rear.)
It is also built upon the assumption that the Clan Invasion Series is a one dimensional series with absolutely no depth to it at all.
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So what non warrior clansmen are you talking about to try to pervert with the 'psy-ops'?
So the Clan’s warriors ‘Mechs have no support elements – technicians etc, and their warriors have no cooks or medical personnel etc.
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What Chandy and a few others did, was psy-ops, by sending luxuries into the clan homeworlds
Then who were the Clansmen he was entertaining when Cassie came into the room ?
Also if this was the extent of a Houses Psy-ops activities this clearly demonstrates a one dimensional / joke view of invasion narrative for the Clan invasion, can I now consider BattleTech as a comedy ?
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Again comes the mythical forces popping out the back side in order to be sent behind the lines.
Again mathematics says otherwise ….
Consider the 20 year update for all available forces
Consider the 4th Succession War Atlas’ for the availability of transport …. And the short distances many of the units have to take and yes it is achievable. Especially when the movement of forces is initiated at the start of the Clan Invasion when all Houses recognize that they are being invaded.
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The risk of the ships would stop most attempts
Then why have wars at all if the precious ships are in danger … why have exploration ships to other un-kown worlds if the precious ships are in danger – why was the outbound light even sent …. Why send two fleets to Huntress if the precious ships are in danger ?
Sorry but this argument cannot be considered credible.
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Static defenses proved very ineffective against the clans. So making worlds of traps would do nothing more then piss off the clans.
This is again a complete and utter fallacy within the game world – try this with 3 RCTs full complement of infantry and vehicles and allow multiple strikes at any clan forces from any direction at once – simultaneous attack vectors – from all forces in range – including artillery and aerial attacks by conventional bombers and fighters and mass VTOL attacks in a position that favors the IS defense units. Unless the Clans dramatically increase their forces they will not make it very far – and when they do they will find that their Dropships have been appropriated via infiltration of infantry forces. (no resupply – no evacuation no food / water etc.)
As for the toads – I give every infantry unit Inferno SRMs and revamp the rules if every person has one SRM then the number of shots / damage should equal the number of available people shooting ….
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Brining up things that should have happened does not negate the fact your statement was false.
Adhering to an outdated one dimensional view – where the IS sits back and does absolutely nothing to stop the invaders is an exercise in pointlessness – please re-read the title for this forum – Alternate History – this is in no way supposed to be a homage to the Canon’s boring view on war and even more boring history !
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Still don't comprehend that customs of different nations may well be opposite of each other? For the clans, children were tested for their abilities and put into the castes.
Still don’t get it when this is attempted in the IS by people who value the family unit ….
Try this in an open IS environment and you are going to have trouble.
History – proves this point.
As for schools they do not permanently take children away where the parents NEVER see their children again like the clans do on their home-worlds.
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And for the clans, the children were not hostages, but being sent to the proper training program.
Training programs ? get real, no one would ever believe this !!!!!!
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the clans could not have done more then piss off the IS and get the counter invasion going before long
So the clans don’t have multiple forward reconnaissance units backed up with intelligence corps to provide information through to Div. HQ who then assigns forces to the next wave based upon the reconnaissance data ?
What type of idiotic invasion is this ? Might as well have forces floundering away.
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It was the idea that the houses couldn't do anything if they did find out that helped the decision to help the clans.
Did no one ever consider Nationalization ? ComStar is not untouchable !
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It is possible that before the invasion, the IS would have already started bombardments with warships against each other.
The same law that protects Jump-ships, factories and has stopped the use of WMDs extends to orbital bombardments.
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The fact still stands that if the DC reacted like you suggested, they would never have survived the succession wars, much less lived to the clan invasion.
Do some research as to Samurai behavior – it is far more complicated, and the Battletech books have only showed an accurate description a few times – suggest looking at WW2 Japanese Forces for clarification on the issues.
And yes they would have to retaliate to Turtle Bay – Face ……
Again do some research on the topic !!!!!
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That is saying that only your way is the correct one.
Wording, which normally follows intent, is where the facts have to be established. Canon is wrong, because the alt says so is saying exactly that.
Sorry but this is not the case – third party opinions are not intent ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/09/20 01:03 AM
66.74.60.165
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What capital missiles were based on Wolcott? They were not around until after the war. So another logic hole?
And it is easier to use dropships to embargo the world, then a single warship. If you want to use more, then it becomes even more wasteful.
Logic is not printed text saying house spies found out that Comstar was helping the clans. So yet another false statement. They are really starting to add up.
For those people on the worlds, they did not know Comstar was helping the clans, as they posed as someone keeping the clans from destroying their society. They were the white knights in the scenario. So unless someone was walking around bragging how the clans got intel from Comstar, the statement the knew if false.
Oh. You mean the failed warriors. The support personnel were in positions that were better then most on the home worlds. But with this, when would you meet them? After you been captured? And they are going to believe you out of hand? A few disgruntled ones may, but that is not an uprising.
The clansmen in the room are not as important as Chandy was in setting this up. Merchants from all the clans were starting to make runs. He said these ones were from the Diamond Sharks. Why be specific if they were the only ones doing so?
The mathematics are YOUR numbers. So suggesting canon had the forces, is saying yet again, only your vision is right. The 4th war destroyed the Davion economy as they used the ships needed to keep it afloat to move the small amount of forces a short distance and keep them supplies. It was not like they moved across the IS or were prowling behind the enemies lines several jumps out. And with the 4th war, they put a lot of strain on the jumpships with the constant use. But I would bet that statement slipped the comprehensive reading. Part of why the raid on Kathil would be so devastating to the FS forces. It was dealing with the issues of the over stressing of the jump drives.
Still don't understand that saying Comstar was in the same shape as the houses were for ships doesn't work. They had their own fleet, which was far better shape then any houses. And there is a risk inherent with any jumps including exploration. But someone bought the ship for just that purpose.
The necessity of sending ships to an enemy stronghold overrides the worries only some of the time. This is not even counting ships being captured or destroyed, which did happen from time to time during boarding. It was not done on purpose, but it is impossible to avoid mishaps.
The flaw in the idea that you will have 3 rcts against a single trinary is where your concept falls apart. You might get something like 3 rcts against a galaxy, if you can keep them secret from Comstar. And once Comstar stopped supplying data to the clans, the effectiveness of their invasions dropped. Intel goes a long way to prevent the overwhelming forces you are trying to push.
Then stop saying canon is wrong because the alt did something different. This is supposed to be a presentation of an alternative to canon, yet it is being used more to bash canon as you don't like they way it went. Something you still don't seem to understand.
Making a false statement, then trying to get out from under it by trying to distract from the statement isn't going to work anymore. You keep saying canon did/did not do something, and it is false.
I'm sorry. Except for Freeborns, who else would go to see their parents? I did not see anywhere that the children of any other caste but the warriors never seen their children again. Even freeborn warriors will see their family when they get shore leave if they are around. So only the trueborns will never see their family again, which isn't that bad as they normally don't know who is actually their family. The genes of a sibko are not all the same. Otherwise statements like one particular strain would not be dominating their sibko.
Case in point. Diann has seen Peri more then a few times, even when in warrior training. I don't think she was the only one that got away with it.
Military schools and work programs in todays world is about the same thing. The children don't have much option to just leave and return home. For some, the child is years older before they do see them. Not sure how strict they are with writing to each other. So that might be an out for this.
Where did it say that the clans EVER reconned a world before invading? They relied on Comstar, or their own orbital scans. That did not change the fact that the commanders that would bid, were already assigned to make the bids, even before the opposition was known.
Taking over Comstar would have destroyed the HPG network. Even with the siding with the clans, they were still neutral enough to get a majority of the messages to whom they were meant for. Until the clan invasion, there was not many that were caught being misplaced intentionally, so in all standards, Comstar was the only one that could run the HPG. Otherwise, you could never trust the HPG network if the houses ran it.
The idea of the IS having plenty of ships and such would have resulted in the IS starting to perform such actions. They would have had enough to survive for a while. And it is only a small area of a world, on the enemies side of the border. The sentiment would expand to become another 1st succession war. It may not be for a few hundred years, but it would happen.
Again, read the response. The DC would NOT be around during the invasion if they did what you suggested. They would NOT have survived the succession wars. So the point of Turtle Bay is moot. The DC would not have been a nation at that point. And I do know something other then Battletechs take on Samurai honor. The lord was the one that said weither some thing should be considered his honor. So it he said he would suffer the loss of face, then the warriors were relieved of the stain to their honor. And it would not cause the rise up that you seem to want to insist. The only reason you are suggesting it, is because you need it to support bagging on the developers. Without it, your complaint of the lack of response falls flat.
The constant sayings is where the intent solidifies. Saying canon is wrong because it doesn't fit your numbers or values is not presenting an alternative way of playing, it is a basis used to trying to complain about it. Go read Retry's comments on Crossroads. It does not say canon is wrong, or does much to even conflict with it. It provides people with an alternative that modifies the game, but doesn't negate what it is doing. They set up their own little corner and run it from there.
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Requiem
08/09/20 08:51 AM
1.158.133.26
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So another logic hole?
Discussing worlds: Wolcott is a FC ‘Allegorical example’ …..
Killer Whale Capital Missile - Year Availability 3051 – FC - Can be launched by purpose-built silos to attack orbital targets - Maximum Range 10,000 Kilometres - Time to Target 23 minutes <@ max. range.>
Year of Peace – October 3050 to November 3051
More than enough time to place multiple “purpose-built silos” upon the multiple worlds and which will comprise the “Gothic Line” fortifications in order to stop the Clan’s advance … cold.
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Logic is not printed text saying house spies found out that Comstar was helping the clans. So yet another false statement.
Q.E.D.
If false then the House this world did belong to has washed their hands of any responsibility of it and its people – ie during WW2 the English refuse to assist the Partisans – the S.O.E. is not formed. Tactically and strategically this callous act serves no purpose whatsoever – no information gathered, no holding up frontlines units in the rear suffering massive casualties to insurgent activities etc.
Also you say there is no printed text – question why did all the Clans complain about IS worlds refusing to give up and the activity of partisans on these worlds – where did these partisans obtain the necessary armaments / leadership to keep this going for so long ? The only way this is achievable is if all Houses are sending in people and material to assist these partisan forces – this also means that information is being exchanged as to the state of affairs on these worlds.
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they did not know Comstar was helping the clans
Just one person, on one world, who has been told to be a quisling on the people they have lived with for how many years, who finds this order to be reprehensible and this argument falls over ….
After living with and having friends, and in all probability family, in the community you have been working with for how many years and it is expected that every ComStar adept will betray them ?
From a sociology and psychological perspective this statement does not in any way hold true for 100% conformity.
Not all people are not that callous.
All I need in one who had downloaded all the evidence as to ComStars perfidy and they now must explain themselves …
In all reality and at an absolute bare minimum 10% in the beginning, and if the Clans instigate a child abduction then 95% minimum …..
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You mean the failed warriors. The support personnel were in positions that were better then most on the home worlds.
Since when did every Clan Military Support Personnel consist of failed warriors? As this would also include cooks, cleaners, logistics personnel, administration, communication, medical etc. Where are the freeborn ?
For many of the Clans how well are their Freeborn treated – case in point how well did the Jaguars and Falcons treat theirs ? indentured serfs had more freedom during the dark ages … Also when the Khan of the Ghost Bears suspended all rights to their freeborn how well would that have gone down ?
Psy-ops – when a closed society is introduced to an open society will suffer a massive form of angst …. You are looking at Spartacus in the beginning …
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He said these ones were from the Diamond Sharks. Why be specific if they were the only ones doing so?
Uncle Chandy does not do anything by half …. This is clearly more significant than anyone realized. Clearly this is an issue that was forgotten about … just like so many throughout the Clan Invasion …
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Mathematics
How can you say so quickly it will not work if you have not run your own numbers ?
Opinion piece backed up by no real quantifiable data ?
Mathematics does not lie it is an absolute – count the number of active units during the initial 4th Succession War as well as those occurring shortly there-after – look at the distances / time frame from the units being moved to the front - look at movement closest to furthest – look at all the units available in the 20 year update and it is quite achievable !!!!
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The 4th war destroyed the Davion economy
Economic recovery takes how many years as the 4th Succession war concluded in 3030 – 20 years is taking this a bit far when it comes to economic recovery ?
Also with the 3039 / 40 war that removes the CC once and for all the FC economy would be on a bull high – so quite impossible for their to be any economic issues !
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It was dealing with the issues of the over stressing of the jump drives.
Helm Memory Core – the House Jump-ship fleet are on par with that of ComStar – otherwise how did all the IS Jump-ships make it to Huntress and Back ? Or, did someone forget to write in that ComStar provided a free Jump-ship engine service and repair to every ship before they departed for both Serpent and Bulldog ?
Sorry but this argument just does not hold water.
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You might get something like 3 rcts against a galaxy
Can I laugh now ? …. How many Clan warriors whist bidding for the right to attack 3 RCTs (the Glory of which would promote them to a RiStar – and possibly get them on the track to winning a name / ensuring their genetic legacy for the next sibko) would stop at a Galaxy ?
Hubris, thy name is a Clan Warrior desiring gene immortality …..
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This is supposed to be a presentation of an alternative to canon, yet it is being used more to bash canon as you don't like they way it went.
And yet ….
• What capital missiles were based on Wolcott? They were not around until after the war. So another logic hole?
• Logic is not printed text saying house spies found out that Comstar was helping the clans. So yet another false statement.
• So unless someone was walking around bragging how the clans got intel from Comstar, the statement the knew if false.
• The support personnel were in positions that were better then most on the home worlds. But with this, when would you meet them? After you been captured? And they are going to believe you out of hand?
• He said these ones were from the Diamond Sharks. Why be specific if they were the only ones doing so?
• The mathematics are YOUR numbers. So suggesting canon had the forces, is saying yet again, only your vision is right. The 4th war destroyed the Davion economy as they used the ships needed to keep it afloat to move the small amount of forces a short distance and keep them supplies
• Still don't understand that saying Comstar was in the same shape as the houses were for ships doesn't work.
• The flaw in the idea that you will have 3 rcts against a single trinary is where your concept falls apart. You might get something like 3 rcts against a galaxy,
So even in “a presentation of an alternative to canon” all I am allowed to do is conform to the Canon story ? I am not allowed to present any alternative ?
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Except for Freeborns, who else would go to see their parents?
Why would a true born want to visit the test tube and the metal container their genetic material was placed into for the holidays ? ….. just going to go see Vat no XGY-389-648 and give them my Iron incubator card (Mother’s day / Father’s day Pun)
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So only the trueborns will never see their family again, which isn't that bad as they normally don't know who is actually their family.
Then how do they fight for a Name if they do not know which one they belong to ? also hasn’t it be shown numerous times that every Clan Warrior knows exactly who their genetic material came from as well as their accomplishments ….
Diana Pryde – the freeborn daughter of Aiden Pride who’s mother is Peri, of the Scientist Caste …. Born of two trueborn , from the same sibko ….. which makes it more like Brother and Sister making Peri ?
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Military schools and work programs in today’s world is about the same thing.
Really? Do I really have to explain this ?
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Where did it say that the clans EVER reconned a world before invading?
And yet there is a story where the Clans Jumped in and listed to the initial start up of every unit on the planet as they went battle ready – thus allowing them a complete TO&E of the unit in question they were about to invade …
And any military that doesn’t have a reconnaissance and intelligence unit and relies on a third party for all its intelligence should never even be considered ….
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Taking over Comstar would have destroyed the HPG network.
Considering how every House Lord hates Comstar, every House should have a contingency plan in place to deal with ComStar …. Privatization is a good first step.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/ComStar#Dissolution
“ the Blessed Order was ultimately crushed by the Republic of the Sphere with all of ComStar remaining within the Republic paying the price, forcibly integrated into the Republic, with all their assets absorbed. No longer a truly separate or independent order, ComStar keep their internal organization ranks, but reported directly to Republic leadership”
Thus proving it is capable of absorbing ComStar into any House ….. so how does the HPG system work once comstar has been destroyed ?
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The DC would NOT be around during the invasion if they did what you suggested. They would NOT have survived the succession wars.
Please Research Samurai Warrior Ethos and especially Hakkenden and that of WW2 …. It also would help to understand the Arch principle of Japanese society and your position within the arch …. And from there go on to consider the principles of Face and how this relates to their society ….the idea of being a salary man would help, and how they go out drinking … Or how about reading a few volumes on understanding how International Business is conducted within Japan …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/09/20 08:51 AM)
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