ghostrider
08/20/20 08:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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I said the nations have ransomed back worlds, and you said there was no way they would do so, as they paid for it in blood. Your memory isn't working well? Or are you just putting in garbage for the hell of it? Worlds change hands and one side comes out the better for it. Simple incursions have ended when one side takes a world or two important to the invaders. Blood spilt isn't a problem for the leaders. They will sacrifice units in order to advance their plans. And there are times when setting up for a trade happens.
Why don't you have the information that no other mech company comes close to Defiance's importance? You supposedly have all the companies and how many mechs are made by them in your notes. Otherwise your entire complaint about canon is all based on wild guesses. If so, just drop it.
The nobles know that trick. It has been played time and time again. Those in other factories know it. The government is not one to just take factories from someone that told them no. Sanctions are done, but out right seizure of their factories. The FS got away with it once, and hasn't tried it again. And that was because Federated Boeing wouldn't work with the government, not from selling to a foreign nation.
The business isn't going to fall because you ignored someones demand to use their specs. Your R&D will make things their way. You do not want other companies to be able to copy your work as it means no way to recover the expenses of the R&D. No future lawsuits that another violated copyrights. For companies, it is all about making money. They produce so much in their way, they are NOT going to lose money because you want x laser in this position then y laser. Or worse, having to pay another company for their licenses when you have your own version of that equipment.
Try again? How is it that the government finds out about things like coups only when the gunmen are storming the capital? That organize, and non organized crimes can be committed for years and only found out when the rich start losing money from a hacker? Or that spies are inside your country stealing tech, money and other things? Oh yeah. That doesn't happen in the fantasy world. Sheesh.
You mean things like concentrated weakness wasn't the government pushing their worlds to put up more then they could? That the entire LC started revolting against it? Katrina took over because of it. The civil war that would have resulted from him not stepping down would have destroyed the majority of the LC, as worlds would have ceded. But that isn't possible it seems.
Do you really think the IS governments would leave that sort of information in the hands of someone besides them? The information is vital to their survival. The people they send out looking are trained at the governments locations then sent out. The private citizen is NOT going to have that information stored on their book shelf at home.
Every military doesn't know the exact location of every base. Why is there recon missions to find the enemy base if you have the location to begin with? You just assault it and remove it from existence. The idea of striking from a hidden base would never be possible with this concept. This statement destroys your idea of hiding bases as well.
Please do show me someone who would want to damage the economy from within to such an extent everyone gets poorer and the cost of goods increases at the same time.
The Overall Economy is therefore progressing along in a positive direction
The underlying ethical issues is not what was being discussed.
Trying to change the subject again as you were shown the lie to the first statement? Then suggesting that destroying your country so you can get rich is perfectly alright?
The ethical issues is the base of someone destroying their country to get rich. Reread your posts before putting up more crap. This is getting very old.
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ghostrider
08/20/20 09:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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The issue is the developers tried to fill in the back story and didn't pay attention to their own numbers. The target base was fine with playing the game, and even still do with the background story not syncing up right. The time they have issues is when the rules get changed on things that were solid in the past. The story has little to actually do with the board game. Which can be played with just knowing the nations names.
Are you trying to be funny? Or just don't get it? Removing you as a threat to others, lessens they likelihood of attacking you. The sword verse shield comment doesn't work there.
Context does not equal the alt bs being shown. The statement deals with writing from the enemy's side, and you don't want them using your tactics.
Oh. I don't know. When did the clans respect freeborns?
Might need to read up on Nicholas Kerensky, as well as the founders of the clans. They are all freeborns that are respected by all the clans. The Falcons ended up respecting Horse. There are other examples, but you won't bother to read it. It shows the falsehood in the statement that clansmen don't respect any freeborns.
Flat spin can be used as an example of how a frisbee flies. Does that mean a dropship is a frisbee?
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ghostrider
08/20/20 09:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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Define what a social general is.
The game uses the LC definition of someone using politics to be appointed head of a military unit that has no experience in the military.
The political century of the clans does not suggest such a thing happening.
The only definition that might be though from the wiki is the clan leaders started to plot against those that were politically opposed to their philosophy.
If you think the wiki entry is suggesting the LC social generals were forming in the clans at that time is correct, then stop using the comprehensive reading. It is putting in worlds that aren't there, and changing those that are. If you have to, have someone else read stuff to you, as they will NOT be putting in crap that isn't there.
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Requiem
08/21/20 10:53 AM
1.158.133.26
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Show me a weapons manufacturer that is not selling under the table to make money and avoid paying taxes.
How about all of them.
They have a manufacturer license and are expected that they know the laws that it needs to follow, it means that they are breaking the law and need to be arrested, tried, convicted and sent to prison
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You honestly think companies don't get around licenses?
Remember – First World highly registered, high level of law enforcement Vs. 3rd World unregistered and no lw enforcement whatsoever – House Vs Periphery State.
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There are more then a few weapons manufacturers that went broke because the government didn't buy from them.
And they are?
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The business isn't going to fall because you ignored some-ones demand to use their specs. Your R&D will make things their way.
How to get excluded from being selected for the next military production run – ignore the requirements asset down by the procurement department and do something completely different – no contact for that company.
And what has the protection of intellectual property have to do with anything?
Omni – requires standardization of many of its parts to make it cost-effective overall!
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Context of information
Nil.
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Define what a social general is.
Appointee within the military though irregular channels to high rank who has never been educated correctly to military standards – and has never gone through the ranks as per the normal chain of command eg. Kerensky – a perfect candidate for a social general – appointed though political connections only, no actual work in achieving rang / experience – never went through the proper chain of command – Company Commander to Commander of the SLDF with no stops in the middle? it’s no wonder he lost over 90% of all his forces to a military 1/5 the size of the SLDF.
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The political century of the clans does not suggest such a thing happening.
Re-read – the Clans are full of people that do not deserve their position – basing rank on how well you can kill someone is a great way to loosing ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/20 12:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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Oh no! Rich CEO's doing illegal things to make money? Does this ever happen? Pharmacutical manufacturers selling drugs they know can kill, and don't bother letting people know? Tainted food sold when it is known to be tainted? MIlitary Items showing up in the hands of those that were banned, yet they were direct sales and not stolen?
You really don't understand the world today if you believe that law enforcement is that tight in any 1st world nation. Budgets are making it so they barely can catch any, and with ties, most are not doing anything but being slapped on the wrist. And then it happens again. The slap of even a 100 million is nothing compared to the billions they make off things. The game is no better about this. Government officials buy weapons designated only for the military, yet the officials have never served in the military. A few million dollars worth of gifts, will by officials looking the other way.
The concept of the Omni needing to be made from pretty standard parts isn't in question. The fact that those that make those parts are not going to give up money in order to change over to them, meaning redesign of their machines to do so, unless there is a major increase in revenue. That is not about to happen any time soon. As the government permits and helps pay for new factories, they can be done with the new standards, if the government helps pay for the R&D to get there. Besides the developers not making very effective mechs, this is why the 3050 mechs were so crappily made. A single upgrade, maybe 2 seemed to be the max most of them had. And they were normally easy to change ones. Endo steel being one of the most major changes, as the extra crits had to be placed in a way as to not interfer with equipment placement besides just weapons. All sorts of electrical lines, coolant as well as sensors and such needed to be placed.
Double sinks that aren't hidden by the engine is another big hard to place right items. The ER series weapons would be relatively easy, with the exception of coolant lines. More would be needed, though not sure if the normal power lines could just be upgraded to a larger carrier.
So when discussing something like how a mech is built, the context of that paragraph does not apply when responding to it? So next time you say the sky is blue, I will be able to say green skies are the only things to exist and it would be ok? Not even close. You keep trying to say apples and oranges, yet don't seem to want to bother with keeping with the statements for a response.
So how is your definition able to support saying the clans had social generals in the time frame before the invasion? They were not trained to run things properly, but they did not get put into position because they use politics. Might makes right doesn't work well, but it isn't the same thing as a social general. The clans knew tactics, though strategy was weak. A main cause of that was their limited trials. And when that goes on for a few hundred years with nothing to counter it, you tend to lose out on strategy of logistics.
Sorry. Saying the political century was about social generals being appointed is completely false. The trial of position had been around far longer then the political age. It was the accepted way, and for military purposes, is no where close to being political appointees. How fast did the Mongols lose? A chief of most tribes was appointed due to combat prowess. They normally had others that knew how to run things beyond that, but it wasn't unique to the clans.
Now the skill based system is not even close to being the best to run things properly, it was not promotion of military unskilled leaders.
It was easy to get supplies quickly in the clan home worlds. So as stated above, that caused the decline in being able to get supplies where they were needed once the supply line grew to beyond a few weeks.
So how did you come to the conclusion the political age was about social generals? Nothing in there suggest that.
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Requiem
08/21/20 07:08 PM
1.158.133.26
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When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will
President Abraham Lincoln
The IS to which all is graft, corruption and darkness is not the IS I believe in.
Military Industrial facility CEOs do not engage in shady under the table operations. When presented with a military contract from the DOD outlining the specifics of the requirements they will attempt to manufacture the best they possibly can within the specifications requested.
Governments will allow tax breaks for R&D.
Corporations will be able to recoup their R&D costs on the back end with regards to mass marketing selling price.
Law enforcement - barely can catch any – slapped on the wrist – make off things ….. where is the efficiency, the honor, the professionalism?
Governments can be amazing – their members can be extraordinary, not all are corrupt, looking the other way
Also it is the Department of Defense (The Military itself!) who signs off on the weapons systems – ie. test conducted to simulate combat conditions.
These reports are then sent to the Government Appropriations Committee who then sign off on the weapons purchase.
As where is the current defective vehicle?
As for the Omni
It is a natural progression of military hardware developmental construction.
In an age where scarcity of recourses is supposed to exist the Omni allows for cost effectiveness – logistics effectiveness –military strategic adaptability on the battlefield.
Given the Helm Memory Corps – the Dragoons order to assist the IS – NAIS Development by Dr Banzai etc the Omni Concept within the FC should have proceeded to proof of concept by no later than the early 3030’s with mass production established by mid to late 3030’s thus entering service (in limited numbers) during the CC fall war of 3039-40. And by the introduction of the Clan Invasion it would have been IS Vs Clan Omni ….
Consider the Clans ranking system …. Trial of position to achieve rank …. Consider their hidebound military tactics a circle of equals and battles fought as duels by duelists …. Consider the average service span of a Clan warrior before they are sent to a Solhama unit (the Clans are a youth based military society –only the rare few make it to older age) compared to the service record of an IS General …. Where is the planetary scale tactics that an IS General employs and where is the massive experience of an IS General has amassed an extensive experience over a lifetime of hard fought battles and Wars?
In a one on one fight with equal technology the Clan commander would be walked over every single time - they lack the experience and tactical flexible thinking an IS Commander has amassed over a lifetime of service.
With equal technology the Clans will loose – their sibko training, their trial “toy” battlefields as well as their own cultural idioms will untimely see to their destruction!
The only hope for the Clans lies in a complete reformation of their society to something consistent with the IS – however to achieve this the old guard of the Clan Warriors must be removed
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How fast did the Mongols lose?
Research of the topic would show that the death of the Genghis Khan in 1227 disputes among his successors eventually split the empire into four. By 1368, all four had folded.
Remember military prowess in the cockpit does NOT equate to strategic military prowess in command – the entirety of Clan Tactics revolves around a very small area of land (the circle of equals) and as result of this small are of land their only strategies are the blitzkrieg and the Duel …. Compared to an IS General the Clans have no real strategic acumen ….
They are useless in a standup combat of equal technology they lack flexibility – no vehicles – no support vehicles for long duration battles – no artillery – no bombers – their replacement personnel numbers would be a joke compared to the IS – they in no way have the numbers to garrison a mass number of worlds!
The entire Clan Invasion as is, is ridiculous !
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It was easy to get supplies quickly in the clan home worlds. So as stated above, that caused the decline in being able to get supplies where they were needed once the supply line grew to beyond a few weeks.
6 MONTHS is not a few weeks!
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So how did you come to the conclusion the political age was about social generals? Nothing in there suggest that.
Go back and re-read between the lines.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/20 10:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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The discussion of the easy supplies was about the clans fighting in the home systems, not the IS. Hence saying they lost their strategy thinking and moving supplies.
You said there was no way anyone in the IS could sell advanced weapons without the governments ok. Then you said that they would have to obey the governments orders, including who and when they can sell their products to and to what specs they will fit. This is not the case today, nor was it in the SL, and being anywhere close to realistic, it wouldn't be in the IS before the clans showed up. To try to gloss over it is the same thing that causes so many logic holes in the story, it isn't funny. Retcons seem to very rarely work right.
Then you said the government can just seize any manufacturers facilities just because they didn't do exactly what the ruler wanted, when they wanted it. If they did, there would be NO private companies except for the ruling family, as the entire line would be seizing the factories for just the money they make, if not for their own fantasies. I am the ruler of the realm so I am the realm itself. Nothing happens unless I say it happens, is what it starts coming down to. Then change it all again as the next family member gains power, as they want it done their way.
And if you don't watch for the bad in mankind, you will be killed by the blindside as someone will do it just because they can. Until the base instinct of people using violence to get others to follow them, there can be no real peace from making all available to all. Someone will try to take it all from everyone and try to rule that way. No. It doesn't mean everyone is out to do this. But if you don't watch for those that will, you become the road kill from someone doing it.
There is NOTHING in that entry that even suggests social generals were formed in that time frame. You are very much putting in words that are not there.
Between the lines means the rulers were starting to conspire with each other against the political enemies they shared. It did NOT suggest any of the leaders rose, or stayed in power thru political favors. Their clans gained from such things, but the individual leaders did not remain in power from it. They all had to prove themselves thru what was established. Trial by combat.
If anything, it is at this point that the clans started moving away from their beginnings to become more like a political bloc. This is NOT the same thing as staying in leadership position by politics. Everyone could be challenged. Social generals could NOT be challenged by normal soldiers. Vlad was not normal, nor was the challenge done outside the higher reaches of the clan rulership.
Nicholas was using politics to get into the head position and hold the job. He died before the political century came about, as well as all of the other officers. So best have someone read that entry to you, word for word. Nothing between the lines supports your desire to have it say otherwise.
This is why you don't understand anything about the game. What you want it to say, it doesn't.
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Requiem
08/22/20 09:22 AM
1.158.133.26
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Then you said that they would have to obey the governments orders, including who and when they can sell their products to and to what specs they will fit. This is not the case today, nor was it in the SL.
“ by law, the United States must consider the possible negative consequences of every arms sale before approving it. “
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_Export_Control_Act
https://www.dsca.mil/resources/arms-sales-congressional-review-process
“This summary reviews the process and procedures that currently apply to congressional consideration of foreign arms sales proposed by the President. This includes consideration of proposals to sell major defense equipment, defense articles and services, or the re-transfer to third party nations of such military items.”
Just to name a couple of the laws involved ….
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Then you said the government can just seize any manufacturers facilities just because they didn't do exactly what the ruler wanted.
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=76857689-d3be-48ce-addf-d1b34ee15216
Legal article entitled “Can the Government Really Seize and Take Ownership of My Company’s Assets?”
Spoiler alert: Yes they can…
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There is NOTHING in that entry that even suggests social generals were formed in that time frame. You are very much putting in words that are not there.
Johnathan Cameron – who was having apocalyptic dreams of the destruction of Terra ….
Appointed Rebecca Fetladral Commander in Chief of the SLDF following her executing her predecessor …..
Due to the Dreams she pushed for the construction of of new fortifications, training of troops, and the completion of the Space Defense System ….
Upon her retirement from CIC of the SLDF she recommended her Aide Aleksandr Kerensky as the next CIC for the SLDF in 2738
Note the highest ranh he achieved in the Field is Captain (Commander as a single company)
Also note that an aide to CIC is Lieutenant Colonel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aide-de-camp
so not only is his rank no were high enough, he does not have the experience and there is also the issue as to why he was assigned the post by Rebecca ….
March 16 - Rebecca resigned as Commander-in-Chief …. citing fatigue from the constant controversy in pushing through the establishment of new fortifications, training of troops, and the completion of the Space Defense System …. Though in Rebecca’s mind it is to protect the Inner Sphere against Jonathan’s “prophetic visions”….
April 21 – Aleksandr Kerensky named Commander in Chief of the SLDF – by Jonathan Cameron, the same as Rebecca Fetladral …. As she convinced Jonathan that he would be able to finish the job of protecting Terra from his prophetic Dreams
August 1 – First Lord Jonathan Cameron Assassinated.
Kerensky was appointed by nepotism and the fact the First Lord was having bad dreams from a rank that was so far below any of the Joint Chiefs of Staff or any Corp Commander or any Army Commander …..
By all definitions HE IS A SOCIAL GENERAL – he was appointed not because of his military ability / experience in the military he was appointed due to his political connections with a deranged First Lord !
Go and look at the Kerensky Forum I set up, all the evidence is there ….
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Between the lines
Go back and read it ….. they are more political than warrior in certain areas …. Transferring to the Invasion of the IS – the Clans most definitely should have come off far worse than given in the Cannon …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Circle_of_Equals
“A Circle of Equals may also range upward toward several kilometers in diameter, for fully-armed, or Augmented, combat between individuals or entire units.”
Can anyone explain how a Clan can go from fighting in a circle of equals (Several KM) to that of an invasion which could be worldwide and could last months on end with no support services whatsoever?
It is clear the clans are only trained for the duel
They do not have the experience for any other fighting technique employed by the IS
How many times did a Trial of absorption or Annihilation occur? Which is the only time entire planetary wars occurred for Clans.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/22/20 12:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Consider is the key word. There have been a few in recent history that were done by one person ignoring the risks and ordering it done. But this is going on the lawful side. There are still weapons being made and sold without consent of the government. And this is those made in the country.
Go reread that entry. In 2947.. THAT DOES NOT MEAN before the exodus. Hmmm. HUGE spoiler there. So all the other crap you thru in there has absolutely no bearing on the entry. There is nothing there to even begin to support the complaint. Read between theses lines. Get your facts straight before trying to quote anything, that says something completely different, and only by adding in words, can you even begin to see something other then what is there.
This is starting to become very common in your responses.
The fact that the forces the clans met were not the entire worlds force in the same instance of time, nor did they have to fight for any real length of time. The invaders hit with basically a sneak attack, and the defenders were no where near ready to fight most of the time. The few they were, the extended ranges, combined with the skills to hit at those ranges, tended to destroy units before they could get in any sort of range to fire back. Lrms, Gauss rifles, and a few er weapons were about it. The LRMs are about the only common weapon available to all, and they aren't that good for focusing on specific spots.
This also comes with the magical sensors and ECM the clans have. This is just the developers not being consistent with their own rules of the game. When the IS gets ahold of clan machines, they magically revert to IS standards.
I agree that the invasion was lopsided with some bs in it, but it is very much like all sci fi writing. I also agree the clans should not have made it as far into the IS as they did as easily as they did.
The clans did have large scale battles, though they were mini duels for the most part. The lack of things like concentrated fire from vehicles from and ambush, that would have destroyed a mech or two is one of the bs things. But that goes to the clans ability to see anything on the world from their spot in the cockpit of their mechs (Rule inconsistency).
And just because the clan leaders said the invasion of a world was done, didn't mean it was. The guerillas were taking their toll that forced the clans to divert more of their troops to dealing with the issue.
Another issue with the numbers comes from how many jumpships and Warships were available to the clans. The number of worlds invaded would have meant they would need more FTL ships then they brought in. 9 monoliths and the warships for the Falcons would have meant they could not sit in any spot for long, as that meant 9 worlds for the monoliths and what ever many warships they had. With just those numbers, they could not have taken that many worlds that quickly.
But again. The back story does not make it so I can't play the game. It was meant to be entertaining while trying to fill in the blanks.
Rule violations is common with the game, as the 3050 construction rules allow all house to use tech from all other houses. That includes stealth armor from the CC, the C3 from the DC, the TSM from the FC, and the advances from the FWL. Also, house specific mechs were in forces other then the house, even though they were 'just made'.
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Requiem
08/23/20 04:39 AM
1.158.133.26
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Consider is the key word.
Suggest actually reading the congressional review process and the information regarding the Arms Export Control Act first.
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There are still weapons being made and sold without consent of the government.
Which governments? As a blanket statement is inaccurate. Then ask what do all these countries have in common and then extrapolate this information into the BattleTech Universe ….
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Social Generals
Is not Kerensky the Falter of the clans and the cornerstone upon which the Clans are built?
History has a funny way of glossing over the truth due to political expediency.
Conspiracy – petty acts – murder – attempted coup d’etat etc – how many act were committed not by warriors but by politicians ?
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The fact that the forces the clans met were not the entire worlds force in the same instance of time, nor did they have to fight for any real length of time.
And this occurred every single time …. Hansed Davion never once suggested to bring together the entire worlds military to engage the Clans in one area ?
This is beyond the realm of belief …. Especially when you consider the amount of knowledge that is gained on a per battle basis … as well as post the Dragoon Conference …..
The entire invasion is a sham, and requires a total re-write
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Another issue with the numbers comes from how many jumpships and Warships were available to the clans.
Clan Wolf –2 warships; 82 jumpships;
Jade Falcon –20 warships; 12 jumpships
Ghost Bears 2 Warships; 27 Jumpships
Smoke Jaguars 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
Steel Vipers 1 Warship; 13 Jumpships
Nova Cats 14 Warships; 23 Jumpships
The point is ? The story lacks a comprehensive understanding as to military tactics as well as the TO&E of all battles upon every world ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/23/20 12:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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The countries that have weapons being sold to hostile countries have top officials that are trying to gain some personal favor from the hostiles they are selling to, as well as relying on others to give them a truthful report on it, along with trying to negotiate some agreement like the return of hostages, or cession of hostilities. Sometimes it is to get that hostile to start harassing another hostile.
Why to you think weapons manufacturers are still being fined by the governments? They continue to get caught, though only when the bribes are not paid to the right people. And just like the big oils companies, 10 million dollars is a hardy laugh. They make that in the first few hours of selling gas or a few weapons. So the fines do not stop anything.
Not gonna be able to get out of the fact that the political century was NOT about social generals. The time frame marked did not have this happen. Those that committed the murders and such did not use politics to do or get out of punishment for those crimes.
Hanse may have thought of it for a few times in the initial invasion, but would have stopped such practice when the clans just dropped directly on those forces and wiped them out even faster. No matter what you want to say, Nondi and the Steiner commanders had control over the forces. Hanse said do this, and it was their opinions on how to perform the missions. That is the way of the military. Mission perimeters get sent down, and the think tank figures out what is needed, then the orders get sent to the regional, highest ranking officer in that area. They get changed to fit what is thought to be the best way to do the missions without getting units killed.
And still you seem to forget that the succession wars had the decoy attacks draw out everything, in order for the enemy to drop elsewhere and do what they came to do.
Battle basis? That information was spotty at best. The news or information on the battles rarely got off world, and wasn't believed most of the time it did reach intel/high command. Comstar was manufacturing normal coms data to make it appear as the world was still working like normal.
Rewrite? Fix the issues with not following their rules first. Some changes really changed how things got down, and more then a few were bent and broken in the continuity of the story.
There is issue one. The Falcons, if they split it up so only one ship went to each world, could only deal with 32 worlds at once. The idea of a single ship being used in each assault is actually going against the bidding process. Normally it was units from 2 different clusters at least, on up to two different galaxies, that bid to see who invades. Most started off with almost their entire force, then bid down. That would mean the forces had to be on site in order to be part of the bid. There was no 'wait. I have to bring these stars here' garbage.
The clans did not obliterate every unit on the world, as they had guerillas causing problems. The time frame of their 'victory' was based on their objectives. Taking the capital and forcing a surrender was their terms. Not a full cession of hostilities.
As stated, the Falcons used monoliths, and with the invasions, the warships were used to patrol the areas. So they could not patrol as well as sit around worlds so their compliment of warriors could bid on anything.
The amount of jumpships has to be able to carry the full forces of the clan touman in the IS. This is where logistics start to fail. To add to it, would be breaking the bid. Replacing destroyed ones would be acceptable, but you could not bring in another set of jumpships to be used in assaults in order to split your galaxy apart to hit multiple worlds. Yes, the jumpships and warships can do jumps once a week or more if batteries are used, but the clans did not normally win in a single battle. The tactics the IS uses would not allow that. The issues is engaging and fleeing from the clans, their range was horrible to deal with. And no. I seriously doubt the battle fields were mainly flat open lands.
But part two to the range, the clans had the speed over the IS. The Timberwolf was as fast as normal mediums. So most heavy and assault mechs were slower then it was. The slowest omni is the Dire Wolf at 3/5. That is about the only mech that normal IS mechs could match.
The power of the clan weapons could take out more armor, as take down a mech, faster. So pit like mechs that weren't completely changed, such as the Phoenix Hawk went to 80 tons, the clan mechs were able to take down the IS equivelent rather quickly and easily. The clans also tended to have more armor as well. The large pulse laser version of the Warhawk was far more powerful then an Awesome, and could hit far more often since it had the TCs on it.
The lack of vehicles in the stories does suggest they were purposefully ignored.
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Requiem
08/23/20 06:13 PM
1.158.133.26
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Why to you think weapons manufacturers are still being fined by the governments?
Question – how many individuals / companies are able to purchase the most advanced fighters / tanks ?
First, where are the arms dealers who supply based on money only – how many of these work in first world nations? – Ans: NONE – so that leaves only the periphery !;
Second, where are their attachments to intelligence organization supplying weapons to resistance terrorists – the problem being the TPTB have not created the number of resistance fringe groups that would warrant this amount of trade – and they are all being assisted by the rich and powerful who can buy weapons legally for their military – thus making this avenue of illegal purchases irrelevant;
Third, where are the intelligence organizations supplying weapons to small governments whom you are attempting to keep on your side - legal sales of goods with all licenses intact; as they are a pat of your local worlds governments;
Fourth, Black-market - small goods not a problem – however as you continually point out the inner sphere does not have the resources to manufacture ‘Mechs en mass thus making it impossible to manufacture anything that the government would not know about, that is unless every military manufacture in the IS also has a secret manufacturing facility on the side – and the problem with this is that as you have pointed out repeatedly the Inner Sphere does not have the technology – so again making this situation unbelievable;
As for the rich and powerful – they all purchase them legally as they don’t need to get them illegally, they do not need the intelligence organizations investigating them for illegal arms involvement – they have the money and the connections to get them legally for their security force – so again this is quite implausible;
Again proof please ….
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the political century
Continue to re-read – to gain the position of Khan required the POLITICAL backing of the other named warriors – it helps if you can get you people named who then owe you …
Can’t have it both ways – “Why do you think weapons manufacturers are still being fined by the governments? “ – if rich people are this bad, then the Clans are also just as capable of being this bad …… you cannot push one human nature story and say the other is impossible just because they are Clans, human nature does not change !
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Those that committed the murders and such did not use politics to do or get out of punishment for those crimes.
And how did they get into those crimes, what was their motivation ….. could I have been political in nature ?
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Hanse may have thought of it for a few times in the initial invasion, but would have stopped such practice when the clans just dropped directly on those forces and wiped them out even faster.
Really? Dividing your forces in the face of a technologically advanced enemy id about a stupid as it comes – the ONLY solution remaining is choosing the correct ground to reduce their range advantage followed by concentration of forces ….
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No matter what you want to say, Nondi and the Steiner commanders had control over the forces.
Again lawful orders via the Chain of Command .. the FC has one and only one Chain of Command, it is not until Katherine separates the two back to their original entities is the chain of command separated …..
So again Nondi can ONLY issue orders as per the normal Chain of Command ……
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And still you seem to forget that the succession wars had the decoy attacks draw out everything, in order for the enemy to drop elsewhere and do what they came to do.
Units operational efficiency is only as good as it’s military intelligence ….
Each contact intelligence gains more information, that information is supplied to regional commanders the better they perform against Clan Tactics …. Something TPTB completely forgot about, except on three occasions …..
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The news or information on the battles rarely got off world, and wasn't believed most of the time it did reach intel/high command.
First many units survivors DID get off world – go back and re-read the majority of the Battles – gun camera pictures and incident reports would be believed to do otherwise is again poor writing and understanding of military procedure …. Military Intelligence is not that stupid …
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Comstar was manufacturing normal coms data to make it appear as the world was still working like normal.
And when survivors get off world questions will be asked, ones ComStar will not be able to answer if it occurs on multiple occasions ….
So again re-write the entire story for a new more sophisticated audience or expect the franchise to fall …. Warhammer is too far in the front at this stage … the story is too one dimensional, does not take into account people from other areas of the military and quite frankly they do not have the numbers – books / models / access to markets and their target market etc.
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There is issue one. The Falcons, if they split it up so only one ship went to each world, could only deal with 32 worlds at once.
Problem is the Jump-ship jumps to one system then drops off the Drop-ships who proceed in system – whist the Jump-ship and the remaining Drop-ships perform a hot jump to a second system where they release the remainder of their Drop-ships into a second system and they are at worst only 48 hours behind the first group dropped – and then depending on the number of days it takes to reach the invasion planet they could still have attacked their invasion world on the same day.
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The clans did not obliterate every unit on the world, as they had guerillas causing problems.
Again how can the clans operate at distances from their base when they didn’t have mobile supply units
Second how can they operate on the front lines when larger and larger number of units are required to garrison worlds – they have limited numbers – over time the number of garrisons will eat up on the numbers available to continue the invasion - and with a PGC of only two regiments this makes the game even more ludicrous ….
Numbers do not lie the invasion was getting ridiculous ….
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the clans had the speed over the IS.
And how does that speed work against the majority of cavalry hovercraft who can envelop then en-mass?
Again this is looking at the war from the point of Mech Vs Mech remember the IS has access to all the toys the Clans don’t have access to – the IS has flexibility the Clans do not – the IS have access to supply and resupply and reinforcements at a rate the clans could only dream of …. The invasion as it progresses becomes more and more ridiculous to believe … it does not open up options – it does not even create new scenarios of fighting the Clans – in truth the Invasion story as is, is boring!
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The clans also tended to have more armor as well.
The IS have more Vehicles + Fighters + Bombers + Artillery ……
As stated the vehicles were purposefully ignored – once introduced the Clans would not survive …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/23/20 10:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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Where are all the cloaked ships with transporters that regularly ply the invasion zones to supply all these weapons to the resistance movements? Oh yeah. I forgot. They are emailed to them.
Where did the yakuza get all their mechs before they were accepted into the DCMS? How many nobles bought personal units that the main government never knew of until something happened? Michael Hasek Davion had more then a few units the FS didn't know about. Skye was selling weapons to whom ever they wanted to. But then it would require reading the material and not putting in words that aren't there.
What? You mean the clans are horrible people, but the IS lord can't be? Yet human nature can't change? Keep going. You will soon destroy all of your excuses on why things can't be the way they are, and how things are the way, but not thru the looking glass. Human nature can change. It tends to revert back to the animalistic nature when those with money and power decide that they are chosen to be the ultimate rulers, and end up just committing crime after crime against their own subjects. Always someone to pull the crowd back into the bad times. Dictators tend to do this.
Assassination is not based in politics, but the desire for power at all costs. They are not the same thing, though politics tends to use assassinations. Politics is using leverage, such as black mail or bribes, to get your way without others finding out. Politicians hire assassins, as they can't risk their own health to do it themselves.
Greed has politics using it, but there are other things that use it too. It almost seems like the term politics isn't what you think it is.
Oh yeah. The politics to become a khan was in effect BEFORE 2947, so where is the bs spin to suggest it started in the political century?
How well did having all your forces in one location when nukes and orbital bombardments took them out all at once? The age of the castle was over when canons were introduced. Gee. So when you can kill more faster, it isn't a smart idea to have all in one location to be wiped out? And even worse, as you can't get out in order to stop the enemy from shelling you, as your forces can't get by each other or the wreckage of those before you. So keep with your concentrations, and lose. You can't run a world if you don't have forces around the world keeping your authorization going.
Pg 19 and 23 of the 20 year update. Federates Suns State Command. Lyran Commonwealth State Command. Wow. One chain of command.. It starts with each nation having their own command structure. But comprehensive reading suggests that the SL obliterated Omi Kurita's advocado garden before Sun Tzu surrendered the CC to the FC. Amaris was cloned and returning to retake Terra for the Amaris Empire. It's right there between the lines. Wait. I don't live in the fantasy world like that. The FC has their own chain of command, one for each nation as it was before the merger.
One of the first units to engage the clans and got away was the Kell Hounds. If they weren't believed, then who would believe a few stragglers with damaged battle roms? OOops. One of the premier units, which Kell lost his son in the first battle, was not taken as fact. Morgan would have definitely demanded the FRR or the FC to properly investigate it. Hmmm.
Not even close. Each world had units bidding to see who would attack it, and with what forces. Both sides of the bid had to stay there, as failure of the wining bid, including their last bid before the win, would have to take over attacking the world. So no. You would not have jumpships dropping off units then jumping to another systems to drop off more. How many units were kept in reserve for the bid of Rassalhague? But that isn't how the rest of the bidding goes. They just drop a star on one world, then jump out, not knowing if that star failed or not until a few days to weeks later. Sheesh.
Funny. Even tracked vehicles have issues going thru woods, and hovers can't even think about it. The clans can hit hovers moving full out and take them down. It is rare that a company or larger is all hovers. And then, a lot of hovers can't take much punishment before dropping. The heavier the hover, the slower it goes. Savanaha Masters can get in quick, but a single hit with a clan ML takes it out. No turret, so has to turn to face a unit they are firing on. And that is saying the Fire Moth is not being used, as it can keep up with more hovers.
Also, elementals tended to deal with a lot of the vehicles, which for some reason, the vehicle sensors couldn't detect them. Hell, the mech sensors had that issue as well. So rule issues there.
That is the issue with the entire game. People don't want to fight hordes of vehicles. They want mech on mech. So the entire history of vehicles is one that gets forgotten a lot. It isn't just the clan invasion.
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Requiem
08/24/20 07:08 AM
1.158.133.26
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Flippancy in unbecoming …..
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Where did the yakuza get all their mechs before they were accepted into the DCMS?
Ronin on hard times ….. How else is property sold yet through the exchange of legal documents, deeds of ownership – all above board and legal.
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Michael Hasek Davion had more than a few units the FS didn't know about
Please, do list these unknown units’ designations …
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It tends to revert back to the animalistic nature when those with money and power decide that they are chosen to be the ultimate rulers, and end up just committing crime after crime against their own subjects
i.e. the majority of Clan Khans throughout their entire history – starting with Nicholas – who reverted back to their animalistic nature, which would become to be known as the Clan Warrior – I also find it interesting that the Clans recognized their animalistic nature in that of their animal face masks they wear.
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Assassination is not based in politics, but the desire for power at all costs.
Please do explain the difference to Gavrilo Princip and John Wilkes Booth
What power were they to receive post assassination and who hired them?
Politics – Aristotle’s Polis – Plato’s Statesman – Werner Jaeger – Carnes Lord - which one? Or just the governance of a country or area and the debate regarding power and how it is used ……
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so where is the bs spin to suggest it started in the political century
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Cloud_Cobra
“In 2934 Khan Corian Tchernovkov of the Coyotes and ilKhan of all the Clans perished in a training accident. Khan Tobias Khatib of the Cloud Cobras was elected to take her place in 2935,”
“By 2948 the Snow Ravens 'uncovered' and presented evidence that Khatib had been complicit in the death of Tchernovkov. For his crimes Khan Khatib was executed.”
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How well did having all your forces in one location when nukes and orbital bombardments took them out all at once?
Literal Translation ?
Question:- How many times did the Clans use a nuclear weapon or an orbital bombardment upon an enemy military during the Clan Invasion ? Ans: None
Remember the Clans are hidebound to their traditions when it comes to the Invasion of the Inner Sphere.
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The age of the castle was over when canons were introduced.
And then with the introduction of the Castle Brian they were once more reintroduced ….
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So when you can kill more faster, it isn't a smart idea to have all in one location to be wiped out?
And with a Castel Brian as well as multiple evacuation tunnels to allow your forces ingress and egress at multiple points in a battle in an area that restricts clan speed and firepower at the same time the idea of concentrating you forces is a no brainer ….. or have the Clans forgotten what Battlefield honor is so quickly when it comes to war ?
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And even worse, as you can't get out in order to stop the enemy from shelling you,
And when was the first Clan artillery unit seen on the battlefield ? and what is the maximum range of an IS Artillery piece compared to this ?
Since when did the Clans start manufacturing / using the Long Tom ? (30 Maps)
Also Conventional Aircraft – Bombers when did the Clans start using these ?
If the Clan did not bid fighters in the mix I can bomb them back into the stone-age with impunity when I use gravity bombs and I am outside their guns range (due to altitude)
Again another example of how the lack of vehicles in the game demonstrates the stupidity of the Canon writings as to the Clan Invasion ! As demonstrated in the forum on the subject every Great House has a massive conventional fighter program making the idea of Mechs as the king of the Battlefield very dubious …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Raubvogel
and this mass is only 45t - and now for the next super fortress …..
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You can't run a world if you don't have forces around the world keeping your authorization going.
And yet we are supposed to believe a trinary of Clan Mechs is able to do this at any one point in time ?
Remember deplete your forces for Garrisons means that the front line forces become reduced in numbers at the same time – especially when you are only allowed a limited number of forces to begin with !
Thus proving the fact that mathematics must be taken into consideration, as to the Clans Invasion of the Inner Sphere,. …… plus it would have been great if they had included after battle battlefield damage reports ….
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Pg 19 and 23 of the 20 year update. Federates Suns State Command. Lyran Commonwealth State Command …. The FC has their own chain of command, one for each nation as it was before the merger.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marshal_of_the_Armies
the Marshal oversaw the day-to-day operations of the AFFC, including presiding over meetings of the High Command and, in a crisis, assuming direct command over a military operation.
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One of the first units to engage the clans and got away was the Kell Hounds. If they weren't believed, then who would believe a few stragglers with damaged battle roms?
All this proves is that there was exceedingly bad writing and absolutely no understanding as to battlefield intelligence operations …..
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So no. You would not have jumpships dropping off units then jumping to another systems to drop off more.
Question: when does the bidding have to take place ?
Ans: ANYTIME before the invasion of that planet – thus this means this could be days even weeks before the actual invasion – thus making the transport of units to multiple locations achievable.
It also demonstrates the Clans desire not to waste resources if they can use one ship for multiple world invasions – A very Clan thing to do !
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But that isn't how the rest of the bidding goes. They just drop a star on one world, then jump out, not knowing if that star failed or not until a few days to weeks later. Sheesh.
Question: What happens if the invading Clan unit wants to bring in additional forces from the previous bid - ask for a time out until they can arrive?
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The clans can hit hovers moving full out and take them down. It is rare that a company or larger is all hovers.
Then why is there a Regimental level classification for them in regards to the RCTs ?
What happens to a Clan unit when hit by multiple regiments all at the same time?
Sorry but they can’t hit them all and they will fall – progressive waves will slowly destroy them ….
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That is the issue with the entire game. People don't want to fight hordes of vehicles. They want mech on mech.
And yet there are others that will run an entire game from beginning to end with the entire TO&E of RCTs, developing strategies and choosing maps specifically to put the hurt on the Clans to see how far they get before they are reduced to scrap.
Much like a chess game you have multiple maps and you work out time movements and engagement strategies – otherwise it is just a small game set in a small area of land – ie a Clan Circle of Equals – and frankly this just get boring after a while – the game needs to evolve ….. there needs to be a Battle Force overall game and when units engage they are transferred to the second map to fight it out ….
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So the entire history of vehicles is one that gets forgotten a lot.
And yet there are others who remember – if TPTB don’t want vehicles then don’t include them in the TRO, otherwise include them in the war and work them into the war – otherwise it is just creating a false narrative of the actual war.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/24/20 12:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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So all the Yakuza leaders were ex soldiers? Not even close. And starting mercs buying mechs? Even normal mercs buying mechs. There is only the company's direction on who they sell to, with the government finding out about SOME of the time. And this does not even cover using 3rd and 4th parties to buy them. This also does not cover the weapon makers that are based on Terra.
Well did you read the rest of that paragraph? Of course not. It was said that politics tends to use assassins. You can use assassins to do more then politics. Taking out a mad man is one of the main things that comes to mind. Not a leader, but say a ranking general, or scientist. The closest thing to politics that comes to is they are part of an opposing force. It is not to gain a position like becoming a president.
Again. The example you show is before 2947 for the action. There is nothing in the wiki that suggests the political century was about social generals. Social generals have been in the military since there has been a military. The time frame does NOT showcase any sort of increase. It was about the clans joining together to be more effective crusaders/wardens, instead of just agreeing at times. It moved from each clan going alone to the sides forming. Only thing between the lines is made up.
And yet you keep saying the clans can not possess warships, as there is nothing to stop them from using them for a bombardment, like Turtle Bay. But I wasn't asking about the clan invasion. I was asking how many times did real logic enter the game and all of your forces being in one location get wiped out from such an act? You CAN NOT have all your forces in one location and guard everything you need to guard. Some real life tactics that eludes you.
Ferrocrete was introduced, but the castles still fell to things like nukes and orbital bombardments. There will always be someone trying to build a fortress to defend from, but for the most part, trying to build the ultimate fortress is a waste of time. A good defense is not the same thing.
The idea of concentration of forces is not something that happened just from the clan invasion. It is the very reason why anywhere you would rule would be unable to sustain your military. Everything outside of where your fort is at, would be completely wrecked. And it is very possible your main fort would be destroyed as well. Your entire force would head out after the enemy, and they would definitely hit the base while they are gone. The enemy would remove anything useful from your range to get at them, and the term combat group losses will show up in big bold letters. But then you will come up with some garbage about having everything made at the base including dropships and fighters, along with every type of engine and combat unit available.
The numbers don't work well, but the sticking to the capital being the only point you have to control has been established in the game for a while. They have kept his pretty consistent. I think it is stupid, but it is part of the game.
Actually, you need to learn about the Batchall. The bidding takes place AFTER issuing the intent to invade. You can not bid if you don't know what you are up against. If you had actually read and comprehended this, the entire issue with bidding would not have been posted.
And you would have to hit soon after the challenge as the enemy could prepare better defenses the longer you wait. For the clans, they rarely had something like a trap set up to be used if attacked. For the IS, well they would have their little fire lanes and such set up, so denying them that would be necessary. The clans are eager to engage, but smart enough to know they don't want the extra garbage of local defenses being involved.
The unit commander would pretty much know his forces won't take the prize, and send them in early enough to do some good. If it is too late, then they would not waste the units by even trying. Also, the loss of face for bidding to low creates it's own problems, which include but not limited to: losing any sort of backing for higher positions, having your genes used in the breeding program, leading to multiple trials of grievance, being sent back into a trial of position to see if you got thru the last one by a fluke. For an IS opponent, the clans tended to bid under the number of defenders, but against another clan, they didn't always invade with less forces then the defender had.
People run RCTs not to fight with each unit, but for the prestige of it. You have 8 regiments of mixed forces under one title, while mech regiments tend to be their own entity. You could use Brigade as the title for it, but that suggests more mech units.
I have played with a group that did run some tanks and infantry. Part of why I say the change in how infantry take damage would change the history of the game. But most want the big stompy mechs, as it allows them to use trees and kicks to kill an enemy unit. Ranged fire against someone that knows what they are doing is very tedious. No rolls being less then 8, with some being over 12. Except open areas for hovers, only minimum range tends to keep the rolls that high.
And what was shown as an example is why people love their death matches, though they try to claim it's not. Most play last one standing wins. But I understand it, as not everyone has a full weekend to play the game. Worse, some of us have pets that don't like having their table filled with things, and knock over stuff. Some actual missions can be won without a full fire fight. Something most really never even try to accomplish.
Again, you don't seem to get the concept of the game. Vehicles are supposed to be the main defenders of large land areas, with infantry guarding specific buildings. That can not be the case if only mechs are available. The game took the players desires and shifted it over to more of a mech on mech. But with the lack of production the game tries to suggest, there can not be mechs guarding everything, nor can they be the only thing used to assault worlds.
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Requiem
08/24/20 02:20 PM
1.158.133.26
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So all the Yakuza leaders were ex soldiers? Not even close.
Yakuza Ghost Regiments were created prior to 3039 and were made into DCMS warriors – or don’t they exist anymore?
Prospective Yakuza come from all aspects of society.
Also suggest research be undertaken with regards to the issue during the Edo period - also have a look at their recent history with regards to the stock exchange and share ownership and the number of businesses created and owned by them – Thus, how many businesses within the DC have security forces that include ‘Mechs and have ties to them?
And again property can be bought and sold during any era during which they can gain access to older military equipment - tank clubs and private ownership of older jet fighters exist today so why not in the 3050’s ….. etc…..
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There is nothing in the wiki that suggests the political century was about social generals.
Clan Mongoose
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Some real life tactics that eludes you.
Really? …. Read Sun Tzu Lately? Know yourself, know your enemy ……
You are consigning yourself to 4th Succession War and prior to this way of thinking when it comes to waging war – much the same as WW1 Generals did – did no one look at the American Civil War and understand that the rules of war had changed?
The same can be said here – there rules of war have undergone a paradigm shift – get on board with the new rules of waging war or die due to antiquated and outdated rules when assigning forces to locations.
Suggest you revisit the battles where the IS forces won against the Clans and look for the similarities as well as understand how the enemy fights.
The Clans do not care about the antiquated notion of guarding important positions – they go where the enemy forces are – and dividing your forces in the face of the enemy has always been a dumb idea! Again look at the Batchall – they stipulate the objective ……
In a stand up fight with a technologically superior force there is really only one solution – minimize their advantages (speed / firepower / sensors –refer to the DC win) and utilize concentrated multiple wave attacks.
Thus in understanding the new enemy doctrine the IS must adapt or perish …..
As for warships and orbital bombardments this has been discussed so many times that there is no real point in discussing it again …. either accept a Navy war or accept a nuclear war, choose …..
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Ferrocrete was introduced, but the castles still fell to things like nukes and orbital bombardments.
Requiring multiple sustained strikes to breach …..
But again the Clans do not use these as operational attacks within the Invasion …. So again choose Navy Way or nuclear war …..
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trying to build the ultimate fortress is a waste of time.
Not in my opinion …. The Clans NEVER used nukes or Orbital Bombardments on IS forces ……
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But then you will come up with some garbage about having everything made at the base including dropships and fighters, along with every type of engine and combat unit available.
You understand how the enemy fights and why the enemy fights.
You understand the objectives of the enemy.
You adapt. You overcome. You improvise.
Understand the era, Understand the tactics of that era …..
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Actually, you need to learn about the Batchall. The bidding takes place AFTER issuing the intent to invade.
Read the rules not every time …. “It almost always involves ….”
And if ComStar is feeding them intel they know what is on each world and they know how many forces should be sent to the world to bid for the right to attack it …. Thus maximizing the number of worlds they can strike in any one wave ……
Thus they can drop of enough forces to bid for an objective world and not reduce their overall effectiveness …..
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Also, the loss of face for bidding to low creates it's own problems
What happens if many believe you have bid too low and yet you come out the other side as the victor? You become a RiStar – you name is placed up for a Blood name – your genes get entered into the gene-program ….
Again the bidding varies from Clan to Clan ….
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People run RCTs not to fight with each unit, but for the prestige of it.
And yet others run a massive game that could last multiple weekends as multiple battles are fought until one side quits the Battlefield and retreats …. Depends upon whom you are fighting and the time-period you are in ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/24/20 06:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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The yakuza had mech long before 3025, much less 3035 or later. And those are confirmed in the game as the pilots were using them before they were allowed. The Black Dragon Society is another big entity that has mechs, even though they are outlawed specifically by the coordinator. Heimdall and a few others scattered around the IS as well.
What did the clan Mongoose entry say? Before 2947 the soon to be khan had the backing of some blood named. It did not say at 2947 or later. The khan was caught and punished at that time. So the statement about the political century made by you is false.
The clans don't care about guarding things? You definitely have not read the invasion of Huntress then. You haven't bothered with the truth that the rebels were not stealing clan omnis at every turn. Why? Because they were, oh lord wait for it, GUARDED when in the storage bays. And what do you know. They had to guard everything they wanted to keep in the home worlds, least another clan come and challenge for it. There is no waiting a few days to get forces in the area. It is very much a sign of weakness if you don't guard things.
And the statement of real life tactics eludes you was about having every last unit in one giant location and not worrying about getting wiped out. As pointed out in the past, the military guards more things then just one location. It is IMPOSSIBLE to guard just one location and remain a force to be contended with. You would lose EVERYTHING that isn't in or next to the little fort. After a while, even air support wouldn't be flying. The Brian Castles were not impervious. They were not easy to take, but it was done. And now apply that to what Kerensky would have to face heading in to remove Amaris. They owned the TH ones.
But there is no way to defend an entire world from one spot. Your forces would arrive to late, if they didn't get shot down being moved in the first place.
Figure 400 miles from Phoenix, Arizona to Los Angeles, California. A mech moving at 100 kph would not make it in under 4 1/2 to 5 hours. And that is being nice. Point 6 miles is a kilometer.
And now add in the statement that all forces would go, once your units were 4 or so hours out, the base would be hit and fall before you could get back. ALL your forces are said to go.
Maybe you should look up that statement of canons being the end of castles. That was from history, not the future. Artillery removed the castle as the main defense point. Even today, they are not making huge forts as they are not even close to being impenetrable. It would be foolish to even think they could be. Not a single miltiary relies on one location to house units. Why is that? Your statements seem to think dumb logic. That is not the case.
So again, you rush into building things to try and negate the clans by using information that wasn't available to the IS at the time, and this runs counter to all the battles fought since the SL fell. Then say it was the only way it could have gone. Your ability to see into the future has been shown to be wrong. You seem to say the IS should have been preparing for the clans since the 3025 game start. And you still don't see where that is a major logic fail. I would suggest taking off a week and actually rereading the books. There is so much in canon you don't seem to know, and yet harp on it with flawed information.
Take your advice about the tactics of the era. The clans did not behave as the IS did when they invaded. The houses were used to other tactics, such as pulling back when heavily damaged or ejecting when on the verge of dying. The clans did neither. So the entire 250 years of succession war was ill equipped to deal with the clans. Yet you don't seem to comprehend this.
And yet tradition still runs while doing the IS invasion Batchalls. That did not change because they had intel from Comstar. Each unit still performed their normal routines in bidding. And this still doesn't negate the fact that the two units that bid, remained at the same world until the battle for it was over. So again, they did not just drop off a unit, jump to a new system, drop off another, then come back for the first unit. For the clans, the battle is much like Solaris. They watch with intent. Seeing what mistakes the winning bid units do, and using that to their advantage. Even if it is nothing more then upsetting those that won.
Where did the idea of bidding to low change from losing a battle because you did not bid enough forces, get changed to winning the fight? The loss of face would not happen when you win. Where is the comprehension there? Read the whole paragraph, and understand it all before responding with such garbage as this.
No. The size of the game does not deal with the era of the game you are fighting in. It deals with how much time you have in real life to actually play the game. Moving a single RCT in a game would take over half an hour, if you skip some things. It would more likely be over an hour for one side. You can use large numbers to fight any scenario in any time period. How much of your life will be devoted to doing so?
Basic facts and logic.
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Requiem
08/25/20 03:52 AM
1.158.133.26
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So the statement about the political century made by you is false.
Comprehension of facts …… the political century stands, the road to a bloodname is littered with nepotism …..
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The Clans do not care about the antiquated notion of guarding important positions – they go where the enemy forces are – and dividing your forces in the face of the enemy has always been a dumb idea! Again look at the Batchall – they stipulate the objective ……
Comprehension of just one part of a statement is meaningless – try again with the totality of the statement ….
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Even today, they are not making huge forts as they are not even close to being impenetrable.
Cheyenne Mountain Complex;
Chiashan Air Force Base
Dulce Base
Raven Rock Mountain Complex
Zeljava Air Base ….. over 1,000 world wide
As for the Inner Sphere Bases should have become a staple form of defense upon the majority of all border worlds ….
Complete lack of understanding basic strategies when it comes to defensive warfare utilizing space forces…
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So again, you rush into building things to try and negate the clans by using information that wasn't available to the IS at the time ….
Try again …. Construction of bases within the IS would have become complex from the time of the Exodus onwards – Succession Wars + Nukes (WMDs) = Massive underground fortresses
What is demonstrated here is a lack of understanding as to the natural progression of military offensive and defensive tactics - the underground fortress equipped with massive doors and internal weapons systems built specifically to contain and destroy is something the Clans and the IS have never uncounted ….
Also the German 88 started off as an AA gun – then look how it was used ….
Then compare this to a a long tom – and what happens to a Dropship if the round is fired the same as an 88 anti tank gun?
Good-by drop-ship ……
This is the problem with the game adaptation to new fighting strategies …..too many just want to think in the box and refuse to think any other way ….. it is very badly written …..
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So the entire 250 years of succession war was ill equipped to deal with the clans. Yet you don't seem to comprehend this.
No this is where the problem is … the 250 years of Clan playing pretend war for the most part with circles of equals have ill prepared them for the realities of war in the IS …. Where are their support vehicles when wars drag on for months …. Where is their reinforcement numbers when the IS starts attrition warfare Vs the Clan sibko system …. Where is the the clans understanding of what happens when a closed society is introduced to an open society ….. where are the Clans understanding of what numbers are required to effectively garrison an IS world …. And the list goes on and on
The Clans have no understanding at all as to what it takes to invade the IS with any logistical efficiency ….
The only way they ended as they did is by the TPTB creating a story that has no basis in reality and is by far the most unbelievable story to date …
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They watch with intent.
Inefficient use of resources and if used this way would mean the amount of worlds taken should be far less than that was given within the Canon Novels and the majority of warriors are now negated to little more than spectators as the invasion progresses ….
Try again …….
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Where did the idea of bidding to low change from losing a battle because you did not bid enough forces
Phelan and Natasha
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The size of the game does not deal with the era of the game you are fighting in. It deals with how much time you have in real life to actually play the game.
Time per week is immaterial – it is what is done that is important – run a game that takes a year to complete with hundreds of small battles that are ALL fought to determine a winner – it is up to the gamers as to how the game is played …..
It all comes down to how much time to allot per week …. Basic facts and logic!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/20 11:59 AM
66.74.60.165
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The entire history of politics is last with favoritism. The political century did nothing to change that. You might as well say the golden age of the SL was all about politics. Comprehension of fact isn't what that is. It is putting in your own words in order to make it sound like you want. The original statement you made was the political century was about social generals. That is false. None of the people promoted into the high positions of power were inept or did not have military training. This very fact is why the statement is false.
I see you didn't read, or purposefully left out the examples of the clans being vigilant on guard duty. It shuts down the idea that they don't bother with guarding things. Another showing of a failure to understand logic.
Out of all of those bases listed, how many hold the entire nations troops in them?
Oh wait. They are HQ's, not bases for the entire military. Guess that is proven wrong. There is no such thing as a nations entire military being posted to one location. They are spread out to cover everything they can, while having some reserves.
So the idea that armor and weapons have not advanced since the 1900s? Good to know you don't seem to think so.
So what is the 88 in the game? A naval autocanon? The hyperspace shell that blows planets apart? Or is it an ac 10? 20? maybe even a 5. Your example suggests it is more powerful then a long tom round. It is nice to see something new in the discussion, but really. Tell us where it would fit in the given weapons, or do you think it is far beyond those listed. While at it, where do the 16 inch battleship guns fit into the game?
The rush to build underground bunkers was thwarted by the fact that so much was destroyed in the first war, that when the second rolled out, not much was rebuilt. And from there, they couldn't get caught up with a lot of necessary things, like clean water and such. It was only during the 3000's time frame that started a major rebuilding, as major assaults were no longer happening. Raids were still a big problem, but tapered of enough that the really dedicated rulers started making headway. Your complaint about the supplies the clans had, doesn't seem to apply to the resources the IS had as well as the proper people in the right places, to rebuild properly.
Defiance took 10 years of SL assets to carve out. That mean over abundance of manpower, expertise, and resources devoted towards it. That was to carve it out. How much longer did it take to actually build the manufacturing lines?
What does the clans not being prepared for extended campaigns have to do with the IS fighting the succession wars, and not being ready for the clans. Your track record of comprehending the discussion lately has been poor. And you wonder why it is being questioned about things that are not in the books.
The clan warriors watch the attacks with intent. Those that won the bid, and those that lost to the winners. The fact that the numbers of worlds that fell is off, hasn't really been questioned except for the fact that with the given ships and the clans bidding process, they would not have taken that many, unless the worlds fell within days of the initial contact. Those worlds that had all their forces together could fall into this category, those that were spread out in ambushes and such would. It would take time to find them, as Comstar would not have the location of each unit, just what units were stationed on the world.
Comprehension failure again. You can bid as low as you want. Losing face comes from failing to take the prize. You do not lose face if you take the prize with low numbers, as it actually increases your standing when you do. The only time winning with low numbers causes a loss of face is when you are forced to call down your last bid. Not sure, except wanting to start an argument, where those statements were twisted.
Also, Phelan won. So the concept of losing does not apply there. Logic failure.
The response has nothing to do with the size of the game based on the era you are playing in.
Depends upon whom you are fighting and the time-period you are in …
This is the last statement in your post of 8/24/20 2:20 pm.
So where does the era limit the amount of units you are fighting with? Besides the fact that there is a limit to how many units are in the entire game? You can run RCT on RCT during any time era.
The return response was...No. The size of the game does not deal with the era of the game you are fighting in. It deals with how much time you have in real life to actually play the game.
You can devote as much time as you want, the era of the game you are playing in is not limit the number of forces.
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Requiem
08/25/20 07:01 PM
1.158.133.26
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None of the people promoted into the high positions of power were inept or did not have military training.
Try again ….. look at the clans not through rose colored glasses and view them with truth …..
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I see you didn't read, or purposefully left out the examples of the clans being vigilant on guard duty. It shuts down the idea that they don't bother with guarding things. Another showing of a failure to understand logic.
I see you did not bother to understand the underlying mathematics of a guard unit per planet in order to maintain any forces on the front line just as TPTB did not understand the mathematical mechanics of invasion and refused to create a realistic war – thus creating the seeds for where the game and the brand finds itself now …
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Out of all of those bases listed, how many hold the entire nations troops in them?
Comprehension as to strategic importance here and now Vs. strategic importance within the Battletech Universe.
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So the idea that armor and weapons have not advanced since the 1900s?
Comprehension of reading once more? – the theoretical uses of weapons other than what they were originally created for …..
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The rush to build underground bunkers was thwarted by the fact that so much was destroyed in the first war,
As stated many times the only way this premise holds true is if EVERY world was bombed back to the stone age – as this didn’t happen this entire premise is a politician’s syllogism …. Try again …..
As for Defiance – the issue of the time taken to build is not the issue the issue is that it was built – and how many other facilities were built underground? Only to be re-discovered in the future? Snord’s … the Dragoon on Outreach …..etc etc
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What does the clans not being prepared for extended campaigns have to do with the IS fighting the succession wars ….
Logistics for one …. Replacement personnel due an accurate Force Depletion Report ….. Attrition warfare and its effects on military sustainability …. Total warfare economic drive ….. etc etc
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The fact that the numbers of worlds that fell is off, hasn't really been questioned
The Wolves …..
Their entire system is built not expediency but on floundering about being spectators for the home team.
If vehicles and infantry were utilized correctly …. And TPTB actually kept track of Clan Losses and didn’t fude their figures back to 100% operational strength all the time this would have been a far different game. Especially if they had someone who understood large scale wars …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/20 07:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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Social generals are inept for military purposes. The term does not cover being unable to do other functions. The clans know tactics and fighting. Strategy may be weak, but they do have others doing that job. As their history involves keeping within a months worth of jumpship range, they were never much for needing supplies over a long range. The lack of ability to pilot a jumpship or dropship isn't a definition of the social general. Even someone that can't use a gun isn't the definition of a social general, though it would be thought as such. The social general is one that sits way behind the lines and orders others to do things, even if the general doesn't understand what is actually going to happen.
ALL the clan members that got promoted knew tactics. They may not have been the best, but they did have experience in doing so.
You forget we had the discussion about the garrison numbers being too small? That still does not negate the fact that even the clans do not have all their forces in one location, nor do the ignore guarding things. And this was about the illogical argument that you can guard an entire world from one location. You can't.
Comprehend this. ALL those locations DO NOT have every soldier in their country stationed there. That is what we were talking about. Not the importance of a CIC, but having everyone in one location. And bringing up the locations here is another example of having to guard more then just one base.
What is the reason for a FOB? Rally point? Even just having remote bases?
Do you remember this statement?
Then compare this to a a long tom – and what happens to a Dropship if the round is fired the same as an 88 anti tank gun?
Good-by drop-ship ……
This is a pure lie. Except for the thru armor crit, a single long tom round does NOT kill a dropship. Using an 88 anti tank round will NOT destroy a dropship with a single round.
This really makes me think you have no idea on the game mechanics at all. Naval weapons do more damage then a long tom. So try and comprehend the real printed words.
Other uses of the weapons would be shelling cities, and convoys. Hitting bases from a range, as most do NOT have artillery to fire back, and even if they did, they would have to know where you are at.
Yeah. SL bunkers were done, which took how long? How much money was spent along with resources to build underground. And the SL was supposed to be the protector of all, so wasting money doing it yourself wasn't necessary at the time. When it was learned that it was needed, it was too late to prevent the destruction. But you seem to have a problem with time lines.
As things like the Fox's Den were built underground, the idea that NOTHING was it false. Cities have underground shelters to house some of the population. But to see that, you would actually have to read the books and what is printed, not what you want to see printed.
The discussion of the IS not being ready for the clan tactics has nothing to do with the clans not having the supplies on hand to reach Terra in one push. The IS was running on the old succession war tactics, where the enemy sends in decoys, in order to drop on their main target while you are out chasing the decoy.
The clans do not use decoys, but go from landing point into trying to get the base without dropping forces that are not part of their main push. What is so difficult to understand here?
The number of worlds taken by the clans due to a lack of ships to do so, has nothing to do with the rest of the RCTs. It has to do with the fact they could NOT reach all of the worlds with forces in time. Even with leaving a world as soon as it was declared conquered, it would still leave too many that would not have fallen because of this.
The rest of the RCTs, along with general militia is an entirely different conversation.
Large scale wars do not have all forces in one location, when you have to guard multiple locations. So understanding that might give some insight on the actual way to deal with large scale battles.
I don't know how much experience the developers had with the military, but I will repeat what I said before. They screwed up trying to fill in the blanks, and not kept to their own rules.
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Requiem
08/26/20 09:23 AM
1.158.133.26
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Social generals are inept for military purposes.
Social Generals are those that do not understand their position and their role …. For a SLDF General, the responsibility to protect and to end the worst forms of violence and persecution …..;
However, for the Clans …. The enslavement of the freeborn and who are violence and persecution personified
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And this was about the illogical argument that you can guard an entire world from one location.
And as such making the majority of Clan Held worlds during the invasion impossible to garrison …..
And my argument was not in relation to guarding a world it was in relation to defending a worlf from the clans – or is that too subtle a distinction to understand?
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What is the reason for a FOB? Rally point? Even just having remote bases?
In this particular case it is a tethered goat waiting for the lion.
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This is a pure lie. Except for the thru armor crit, a single long tom round does NOT kill a dropship.
The 88 was intended for AA
When someone used it against a tank its lethality was realized
Same here…..
Consider the Kinetic force of a shell as it strikes a Dropship …… say good by to the dropship …..
Naval Weapons are WMDs ….. orbital bombardment
Any Dopship approaching a base and hit by a shell is not going to live very long ….
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wasting money doing it yourself wasn't necessary at the time.
When you are on a battlefield where everyone is using WMDs – you will be happy for the expense in building a fortress ….
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The IS was running on the old succession war tactics
This is where having an experienced general comes in …. With every contact with Clans information is gathered and disseminated to all generals of all units within the military …. With the Dragoons Conference all the uncertainties are removed – a clear defensive strategy can be formed.
Or do you believe only the Clan are allowed to evolve their tactics?
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The clans do not use decoys, but go from landing point into trying to get the base without dropping forces that are not part of their main push. What is so difficult to understand here?
And because they are so hidebound this act it will destroy them ….
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So understanding that might give some insight on the actual way to deal with large scale battles.
Depends on the General …. Not all fight the same, the best you will never see coming until it is too late……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/26/20 12:13 PM
66.74.60.165
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The reason I brought up the issue of not being able to protect a world from one location has nothing to do with the clans, but as stated in the statement, your idea that it can be done is incorrect. But again, this is something that was not kept on subject, but moved to something else.
Not talking clans or IS wars. I was saying the idea of remote bases has to be done to have force close to, or stationed at, places that need protection. The on going discussion of this is the statement you made saying all forces should be in one location. That is not possible and protect a single country, much less a world.
Even the clan naval weapons a single shot does not kill most dropships. A single shot from a long tom does not kill a dropship. Multiple or repeated hits will.
The economic decision of not making every factory underground is very common. The idea that the SL would prevent the necessity of it, as well as the very old common practice of not doing so, continues in the game even today. Saying it is worth the cost is forgetting or ignoring the fact that humans make things as cheaply as they can get away with, so they can make more money in profits.
If you disagree, then make a game yourself, and make sure it is done right. Not the garbage of taking an established game and trying to alter it to fit your view.
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Requiem
08/26/20 07:44 PM
1.158.133.26
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The reason I brought up the issue of not being able to protect a world from one location has nothing to do with the clans, but as stated in the statement, your idea that it can be done is incorrect.
“has nothing to do with the Clans” – The title of this forum is “Alt History / Thoughts re Clan Invasion of The IS”
“your idea that it can be done is incorrect”
– then show me an example of when the Clans Invaded a world, during the invasion, where they did not assign the primary target as the opposition IS forces?
- remember the entire CLAN bidding process when they arrive – with what forces do you defend this world …..? you as the defender do have the right to assign all your forces upon the entire world to the fight – you as the defender have the right to choose the battlefield – you as the defender do have the right to demand compensation when you win – and when you do win any clansman taken alive, and their Mech, can be taken as spoils of war …..
- The entire CLAN culture screams that I am allowed to fight utilizing all my forces in one spot against whatever they bid ….
And yes I can do this as it has been explained to me by either a Clan non-warrior / warrior POW or my Generals could have asked for a copy of their rules of war as they do not understand the question / cultural significance as to the question with what forces do you defend this world …. They would be honor bound to explain the rules! or through information provided by the Dragoons ……
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The on going discussion of this is the statement you made saying all forces should be in one location. That is not possible and protect a single country, much less a world.
During the succession wars I assigned my forces as a General of that era – and included a defensive forces for the command CIC as well as the ready reaction reserve forces …. However the time shave changed …. The Clans have forced a paradigm shift on the battlefield ….
The Clans have required a critical mass battlefield tactics …. The Clans own rules allow for it …. The Clans and the IS own history has allowed it …. The Clans own battlefield tactics demand it …. Accept it or history has left you behind ……
So again show me a battle during the clan invasion where they didn’t go straight for the enemy forces?
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A single shot from a long tom does not kill a dropship.
In atmosphere …. At an extremely close range ….. and utilizing a shell that has how much kinetic energy behind it? The damage inflicted – especially if you strike a ramp door will be catastrophic ……
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The economic decision of not making every factory underground is very common.
And proves the point that no one cared to learn from day 1 of the First succession war ….. or no one worked out how the first succession war would be fought when Amaris took the throne and worked out how Kerensky would respond …. Thus showing the entire IS House Lords at that time + their military did not understand what was going to happen ……
And this is beyond the bounds of reality …..
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humans make things as cheaply
Yes they do, however this is not the be all and end all of the decision – many other factors come in to it – suggest reading a few articles on the decision to offshore within Internal Business …..
Also you need to take into account the engineering capability of the SL and the houses during the SL era – the ability to manufacture underground facilities would not be that expensive …. So in reality putting it underground during a nuclear war would have been a no brainer when it comes to either receiving profits or looking for WMD Insurance for your business …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/27/20 02:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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Rasselhague had one instance that the clans purposefully missed the primary target, so as to get the prince of the FRR to flee from his position of safety. There are more, but don't remember where they are at.
And the title of alt history, like most of the threads you started has been use fictitious numbers that only you know of, to claim the developers didn't follow your vision, as they used their numbers. And when you add in such statements like you can defend a world from a single location, it opens up comments to them.
The statement of defending a world came before the clan invasion as well. But UNTIL your people learn of the Batchall, and hope the enemy issues it, then you have a limited scope of time. They will wait only so long. And you would fall into their trap of getting all your forces together, so they can concentrate all of theirs against you. And the first time you violate the challenge, you will be hunted down as dezgra, and never allowed the chance to challenge again. There is also a limit on what you can demand if you win.
The single shot that penetrates a hanger door is what they call the thru armor shot, meaning it was a fluke, not something that happens most of the time. Before they changed it, a single machine gun shot could kill a dropship or larger with the thru armor shot. They change this in a later version of battlespace I believe. It was thought as incredibly bs for it to be possible.
So how many factories does Russia or Germany have underground? How about any nation that builds great amounts of military vehicles? So all the countries in the world have not learned to place them all underground? Not at all. The civilians that own those factories make that call. And the idea that it won't happen to my property so I am not going to spend the money to do so runs rampant. Hell. How many of the factories today are even armored to withstand a normal missile strike? Europe has been one of the main focuses of wars throughout history. Asia as well, yet nothing major.
Offshore headquarters for businesses is to get around paying taxes. They save far more money each year by doing so. They move their manufacturing plants to countries that don't have high wages, or much in the way of EPA laws. They don't charge less when they do so. So costing them 20 million dollars makes then 100 million. And even more after the first year they moved, as now they don't have to pay the moving costs.
If you want even more on things like this, check out the professional sports, like U.S football. Several teams have demanded the city and state they were based it to make their stadiums to the team owners standards, and the team owner pays NOTHING for the build. They rent them. They have more power then the people living there.
So no. Businesses are not going to pay extra for the safety of their buildings as they can normally get others to do so. Then complain and sue the military for not doing the job. This sort of thinking will not change in the future. It hasn't changed from the past to now, so history shows it to be the way of things.
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Requiem
08/27/20 07:34 AM
1.158.133.26
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Rasselhague had one instance that the clans purposefully missed the primary target, so as to get the prince of the FRR
Rasalhague is an interesting situation
First can anyone explain how Clan wolf can garrison a world with 5 billion in population?
Second Ragnar Magnusson was made a bondsman in early 3052 whereas Rasalhague fell in July 3050.
Third there is no evidence whatsoever the Clan Wolf deviated from attacking the Rasalhague forces.
Fourth, the idea that Hanse, Melissa and Theodore would allow a capital world to fall is once more ludicrous considering the expertise of the these people when it comes to the execution of war –it is worse that ludicrous it is extremely bad writing - it is also demonstrates an extremely bad use of IS forces fighting the Clans – as why would any House lord allow the FRR to fight on their own and allow the Wolves such an easy run?
Also the 1st Freemen – on 23 June 3050 they were on Last Frontier fighting Clan Ghost Bear’s Ourse Keshik and the 1st Bear Gurads’ 310th Assault Trinary at Brighton Rock and Ascension – so how did their doppelgangers come to be on Rasalhague?
Can anyone explain why they would not assist the FRR as isn’t the entire strategy based upon containment?
Thus once more showing the completely inept writing when it comes to the Clan Invasion of the IS – rewrite required …..
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But UNTIL your people learn of the Batchall, and hope the enemy issues it, then you have a limited scope of time.
Code of Honor.
Marquis of Queensbury rules; The rules of dueling are quite clear prior to the duel to commence the defender is supplied with a copy of the rules ….. to not do so would cause dishonor to all concerned …. Suggest conducting research as to the dueling among military officers up to the early 1900’s.
For the Clans not to explain the rules to those they are about to engage shows that either TPTB do not understand or their Clans have no concept as to what honor means.
So again another example of bad writing …….
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So how many factories does Russia or Germany have underground?
WW2 or cold war?
WW2 – Russia didn’t have to due to the tyranny of distance from their factories to that of the front lines; Germany – considerable amount was placed underground – eg Mittelwerk.
Post WW2 and beyond – where do I start? Vietnam, Iran, both North and south Korea, China, America, all of Europe (eg Klara Shelter) and on and on
Within the IS building underground is not as difficult as it is today – it would be relatively inexpensive to complete considering their engineering ….
This is one of the biggest problems when it comes to the game – the year is 3050 – how more advanced would their civil engineering be than that on now …. Comparisons of the two eras must be considered from the basis of the era in which you are representing …..
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yet nothing major
Consider most of the hot spots around the world as well as Russia and China.
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SL bunkers were done, which took how long?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Castle_Brian
Within thirty years over a hundred more were built – and this is just the work of the TH
So really how many could the House lords have constructed if they had the plans to them as the RWR did?
So once more – extremely bad writing as wouldn’t the Houses have established their own version of a Castle Brian as when it comes to innovation / imitation when it comes to copying technology?
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Offshore headquarters for businesses is to get around paying taxes.
Again read a book on the subject … as all countries have taxes …. Geography and Geopolitical alliances etc and strategic alliances must be taken into account as well as completive advantages financial flows and changing technologcal relocation and diffusion based upon changing market economics – consider trade and the factors that impact logistics from raw materials to finished goods and then to the market shelf / internet website (warehouse) and postal service ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/27/20 11:21 AM
66.74.60.165
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Sorry, it wasn't the prince, but the one of the main high commanders. I don't remember the name right now.
There is a third explanation of why the clans didn't explain the batchall to the IS. The individual leaders were scared of the IS learning the ways of the batchall, and using it against them, or they were personally against even giving the honor to the IS, as most considered them beneath the dark caste. They were trueborns attacking freeborns.
With the advent of the ICBM and cruise missiles, your own logic says they should have moved all their factories underground. Even the use of the first nuke, it should have shown all countries what could happen in the future. The power of money rules in every era. People will build things as cheap as they can to make more money. With the countries, only a few things are build underground. I do not see a tank manufacturing plant being underground, even now. Some test sites would, but in the end, not enough to sustain a war. And total warfare would have a majority of those factories, if not all of them, above ground. Now I am considering above ground to be locations that can be bombed without the need for bunker buster missiles and such. So a factory with a single level below ground would be considered above ground.
The fact that having the HQ off in international waters, as well as finding the country with the best tax rates, and using them to avoid paying higher taxes in other nations is why it is done. And even then, the companies hold off on paying their taxes as their properties won't be seized, but the lawsuits to get the companies to pay up happens. Wait long enough, but not to the point where they do get their properties seized, they negotiate a much lower amount to have to pay. They do get things like 100 million bill dropped dramatically. Even as low as 10 million. There are loop holes in the tax code for the U.S. that allows this.
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Requiem
08/28/20 08:03 AM
1.158.133.26
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The individual leaders were scared of the IS learning the ways of the batchall, and using it against them, or they were personally against even giving the honor to the IS, as most considered them beneath the dark caste.
Then why bother initiating the battle challenge at all? eg….. "What forces dare defend this world from the steel talons of the Jade Falcon?"
No, this is clearly a complete misunderstanding as to how the rules pertaining to duels are honored between two parties …. Where are the seconds and who will act as the adjudicator ….. and once more demonstrates a poor writing / or a lack of understanding as to the invasion ….
How can you try to prove your moral superiority if you cannot communicate the basis for that superiority?
Sorry to say but the entire Clan Invasion is lacking in so many areas that it is quite impossible to believe in its reality ….. re-write please ….
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With the advent of the ICBM and cruise missiles, your own logic says they should have moved all their factories underground.
They have ….. Iran, North Korea and many others …..
As for the rest ….they still have issues with regards to history, psychology and engineering ….
History …. The original plant was built during WW2 so why shift …. Even though there is a real issue ….
Psychology …… I live in (Name of country here) our military will protect the factory …. Blinkered optimism of the rose colored glasses !
Engineering …. Tunnel boring machine (TBM) still not fully economically viable for large scale operations.
However in the age of Star League, an age of incredible engineering achievements, this should have been relatively simple and economical.
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The fact that having the HQ off in international waters, as well as finding the country with the best tax rates, and using them to avoid paying higher taxes in other nations is why it is done.
Again do some research …. Suggest google – “What are the driving forces behind globalization?”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/28/20 11:26 AM
66.74.60.165
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Why issue the batchall at all? Not thinking things thru before responding? The batchall is part of tradition, which would be honored if the commanders tried it with the other clans. Though the raid on the Ghost Bears after the war showed that practice was starting to wane. To show you are superior, you do not have to state that you are, as that is just an ego boost. The main way they showed they were superior was attacking with less forces then the defender had, normally around half the numbers. But honestly, this isn't really showing superiority. Their tech was far enough ahead of the IS, even trainees could have taking on even numbers and won. They should have used old mechs with the old tech, and tried the half numbers thing. If you win, then you show superiority. Not this fire from a range you know the enemy can't match, and can't close the distance to return fire.
Some of the factories for the named countries are underground. They still have a majority of their factories above ground. The main ones are research facilities that are below ground. It is done more to keep secret what they are doing, then protecting the factories from a strike.
The military is supposed to stop the attacks to begin with. We all know that doesn't hold true, especially when the enemy strikes without any notice. But the military will protect certain things before the normal civilians in areas.
And no matter what you want to think, the cost of making the factories underground is an expense the civilian CEOs and owners are not going to spring for. As security for civilian set ups vary, most of them become so obsolete or useless that someone can seize the factory and force the owner to damage or destroy some of it in order to get it back. Underground is that much more difficult to get back.
The boring machines are good for somethings, but they tend to be long tunnels, that don't turn sharply. Multiple runs trying to stay next to each other is possible, but you still have the issues of the holes having to be done in order to do so.
More efficient then digging? Very likely.
But with doing the strip mining style of digging to make the underground factory is basically opening up the top and trying to put a bandage on it.
Globalization is there so big companies can run out the competition, and make a monopoly around the world. It allows them to force the weaker economic countries into given them good terms to use them as a business base. Then avoid paying the more economically sound countries what they demand. It also allows companies to make the items in areas that don't have strict, or can't enforce environmental laws. Cheap labor is yet another thing they want.
The concept of making the world one large happy consumer place existed for a very short period of time, but greed has over run it as it has with most everything else.
This is not every company, but a majority of them. 51% or more.
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Requiem
08/28/20 07:25 PM
1.158.133.26
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Not thinking things thru before responding?
Comprehension of the entirety of the conversation demonstrates the facetiously of the situation – eg. The Jade Falcon Clan arrive at an IS world and say "What forces dare defend this world from the steel talons of the Jade Falcon?", and the IS commander is looking at the Jade Falcon perplexed as she/he has no idea as to what is going on because they refuse to explain their cultural idioms.
So again, why issue the battle challenge if the receiver does not understand the question and its import? – as this can only be achieved when both the communicator and the receiver understand the import of the question been asked, and this can only be done with the IS been provided with an education as to the Clans Traditions.
So again where is a copy of the Marquis of Queensbury rules as to Clan fighting traditions for the IS to understand what is expected of them?
Ever played a game where you do not know the rules and no one will explain the rules? …. Pointless!
Same here! This is not superiority it is just stupidity!
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Some of the factories for the named countries are underground. They still have a majority of their factories above ground.
Again …. It will take time to place the majority of their military industrial complex underground, but it is inevitable …..
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the cost of making the factories underground is an expense the civilian CEOs and owners are not going to spring for.
Again …. Currently it is not only cost effective and the technology is not there yet …. However by 3050 the technology WILL be there and the cost effectiveness WILL be there …..
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But with doing the strip mining style of digging to make the underground factory is basically opening up the top and trying to put a bandage on it.
Research again …. Google “diagram of underground mining block caving method” – you just need to ensure the collapse does not include a ground collapse – there are also other current mining methods.
So who knows what mining methods will be available in 1,000 years time.
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Globalization is there so big companies can run out the competition, and make a monopoly around the world.
Research again …. Look at Born Global activities by utilizing the net to sell products – allows a small company the reach of the larger companies ……
And again this is only looking at the negatives …. Consider the positives – they are providing work and incomes and education – if they were not there what other jobs are available that are not immoral or illegal? Globalization has increased the standard of living for the people within weaker economic countries ….
And this should have been considered within the IS realm – and yet never was which demonstrates a complete lack of understanding as to economics within the game – why tax a realm to death when they do not have the industry / society to support an increase to taxation …..Star League Richard Cameron?
Again showing that he had no real understanding as to economics and its effects on a macro / micro level or International Business as it comes to improving an individuals’ life within an impoverished Periphery – So Kerensky as regent what education system did you provide the future First Lord? As it appears he was completely unprepared for the job …. Which is once more YOUR fault Aleksandr Kerensky ….. proving once more that he was a completely inept Regent and SLDF CIC.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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