ghostrider
09/05/20 12:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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The retcon issue is why the 'history' does not have continuity or stability for that thought. I want to say there was at least one story about the clans using vehicles, that was put out during the clan invasion, but don't remember where it was at. Well, besides the normal ammo haulers, and riding jeeps.
Turtle Bay is further behind the front lines then Wolcott. And as much as it can be considered stupid, the DC didn't seem ready to use it to strike that deeply behind Jaguar lines. But then the whole story of them just leaving the planet without a garrison seems to be yet another retcon itself.
And one fact that seemed to be ignored, is that the entire IS should have been fired up from this. The easy advance of the clans should have met with far more resistance, as well as more intense resistance.
If you dropped onto a world that has been a closed society for a couple of generations, and said there is another way of doing things, how many would jump up and say 'show me'? The majority would think you are lying. Yes. There will always be some so desperate, that they will 'believe' you. They are probably at the end of their rope and would rather die then continue on. So they would take the chance. But if someone from a nation you are taught to hate outright, the chance of finding anyone would drop even more.
There are more stories in the news about the top end collages having bribes paid to get children in, and those ones are not up to par with the rest of them. So even the top education facilities are putting out the uneducated, or not caring people. But for the general populations, it is far worse. Most have to be sent to the next grade after so long. It is even worse, as parents sue the school system if they don't. Most of the parents would say their child is being discriminated against.
You do realize that most of the conversation for the alt stems from the simple statement of 'I don't understand'? When you get told what canon did and why, you said it wasn't possible and it was wrong. Since then, the responses have supported the statement of not understanding the storyline. It is riddled with issues, but for the games background, it is correct.
But the statement still stands. Knowing little to nothing about physics, a psycology degree does nothing to help understand quantum realities or even the principles behind particle acceleration.
Most companies support charities as a tax deduction. A few make them to gain more money by being CEO, and donating to themselves for the tax dodge, as well as making more off other people supporting the charity. It really is screwed up, but is happening more and more. Right now, there are certain people trying to rewrite the laws in a nation, that remove taxes from the rich and super rich, claiming it will help with getting more jobs for the masses. It won't as most are sending those jobs out of the nation, and running the country deeper in debt.
The retcons are trying to deal with issues they had in the past, but most don't really do much but put a nice paint job on a house over a sink hole. There is no real supporting base.
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Requiem
09/06/20 04:18 AM
1.158.133.26
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why the 'history' does not have continuity or stability for that thought.
Revisionist history occurs for a multiple of reasons – in this case, in all probability, the ‘improvement’ of history is occurring for a couple of reasons:-
Financial – improve the narrative thus increase the number of participants which increases profitability;
Technical – fix many of the black holes that exist;
Inclusive / strategic – increase the Clans arsenal there by undermining the issue the game is completely rigged when they refused to allow the IS access to all conventional weapon systems – which in all case should have decimated the entire clan’s invasion just through the fact that they are incapable of fighting via an attrition battle strategy.
Problem is no matter what revisionist issues are brought in there are just a few subjects that are so massively egregious that only a complete rewrite will be required to fix as it is quite clear the story, as is, just does not make the grade. (In My Opinion!)
But the fact does not change – the Clans invasion story appears to be undergoing a re-write from what is written within the Turtle Bay Forum!
Thus do we now need to purchase a complete set of new books as to the invasion or is there going to be an overarching forum that will explain all the additions in one forum - as attempting to find them all scattered throughout all the forum pages would be a serious pain ….
So the question is who was driving the Clan Vehicles on Turtle Bay and why were they not using either their Mechs or Elemental Armor? Or are we going to get a new branch of the military invading with the Clan Military – perhaps their Military Police as Garrison Troops? But then this brings up the issue as to why you a gre giving failed warriors weapons?
Also there are no old Invasion information that allowed the Clans Vehicles – it is only now with the re-write they are allowed them ….. Problem is none of the Clans has a police force large enough to garrison a single world as Rasalhague with a population of 5 Billion people!
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Turtle Bay is further behind the front lines then Wolcott. And as much as it can be considered stupid, the DC didn't seem ready to use it to strike that deeply behind Jaguar lines.
Thus proving the point that the invasion, as written, was a complete sham (In My Opinion)
This has, throughout the history of warfare, been one of the primary strategies when it comes to fighting a superior military force – go after their supply network – take them out and see how long their forces survive on the front line.
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And one fact that seemed to be ignored, is that the entire IS should have been fired up from this.
Kentares Massacre and the revival of the FS military? …… forget their-own history?
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The easy advance of the clans should have met with far more resistance, as well as more intense resistance.
And yet whenever I pitched this idea it was shouted down again and again ….. and by who?
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If you dropped onto a world that has been a closed society for a couple of generations, and said there is another way of doing things, how many would jump up and say 'show me'?
Problem is there are three such regimes / examples of this in modern history and how did their populations consider the influx of information?
Especially when you consider Rock music and the fall of Communism ….. Queen, The Rolling Stones, David Bowie, Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel, Ozzy Osborne …..
Remember it was not all about dry books, booze and cigarettes …..
The simple fact is the Clans sociology is predominately freeborn working class and someone really dropped the ball when it comes to materialism and the 20 something (even behind the iron curtain) ….
Thus the extrapolation of this, over to the Clans, was really mismanaged (in my opinion – once more!)
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So they would take the chance. But if someone from a nation you are taught to hate outright, the chance of finding anyone would drop even more.
Still not an absolutism …. They may be rare but even North Korea still has defectors.
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There are more stories in the news about the top end collages having bribes paid to get children in
First – any parent will do anything to give their child a better life.
Second – what percentage does this represent to the total number of children who got in through their own hard work? 0.00001% …. The idea of materiality needs to be considered.
Third – how is Affirmative Action working?
Fourth – ethics and the modern social dilemma … how is that currently working?
The issues are vast and have so many sides to them that it is almost impossible to come to a result that everyone will agree to, all you can do is your best.
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You do realize that most of the conversation for the alt stems from the simple statement of 'I don't understand'? When you get told what canon did and why, you said it wasn't possible and it was wrong. Since then, the responses have supported the statement of not understanding the storyline. It is riddled with issues, but for the games background, it is correct.
Consider modern ….
Politics;
Military Strategies;
Economics – comparative advantages as well as geopolitics;
Sociology;
Psychology and psy-ops;
Logistics and modern chain theory;
Mass manufacturing and engineering and the concept of re-engineering and value adding;
Historical imperatives that have shaped modern thought; etc.
The application of many of the underpinning theorems within the Battletech universe indicates a vast disparity as to what is written currently and what could be considers to be a late ‘1800’s Boys own adventure book.’
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the principles behind particle acceleration.
Problem is how many introductory lecture courses are now available on the net in regards to this subject – one google and I hit a couple – especially when they are designed for first year university science - thus time and intellect enable people to learn and understand …. Even they laymen can learn ….
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There is no real supporting base.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction ….
For every action …..Clan Vehicles within the first wave of the Invasion ….
There is an equal reaction ….. who was piloting them, which unit were they attached to, on which drop-ships were they assigned (as remember there was supposed to be a limited number of Drop-ships / Jump-ships)
And if the number of Drop-ships or Jump-ships are not correspondingly increased this in turn means that the number of Omni-Mechs within the Invasion Toumans must also be correspondingly decrease by the same proportionate amount as the increase in Clan Vehicles.
And if the number of Drop-ships and Jump-ships do increase – this just gets very interesting as the entire initial bids for all the Clans has now been exorcised and replaced with who knows what, and thus in turn the complete invasion on its head, which will necessitate a complete re-write as the game has now completely been changed to something else … and if it is not then it is just cheating to such a scale that will not be tolerated (again in my humble opinion!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/06/20 12:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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Even without using the high grade clan tech, why didn't the IS start making the lighter, less crit normal weapons? I agree the high grade tech should have been used, the normal weapons did have upgrade that should have been put in place.
As for the clans being favored, that is something only you have suggested. I think the clans succeeded more because of the piranha effect, and the fact they had the better weapons and warriors. Except for other clans, they didn't really have much competition to stop them at first. The IS factions prevented the extermination of them, as it should have. And yes, the factions. All the little and even big problems with people trying to seize control, like Ryan did before his death.
The entire history of the houses has been changed, so yes. You will need to buy a new set of books to get up to date on what is going on. And they will change them too, once more of the story is 'fixed'. Depending on how much is changed, and if they fix all the issues, it may be worth getting them, but I think they will probably do it in stages, in order to make more money that way.
Rasalhague is an oddity. Once the Wolves took it, they kept the leader in position, and they are keeping the peace there. So that example is actually the answer to part of the numbers issue. And not sure if the prince has issued orders for the people to remain calm or not. Even though he is now just a warrior in the wolves, he is still considered the crown prince.
I was against the massed military movements because of a lack of ships, the need for troops to protect worlds, and the clans should have been able to blow them out of the sky as well as take the jumpships. With saying the should have faced fiercer resistance means those units that did fight them, would not have given up as soon as they did. It should have also had those factions trying to take power, deciding to help remove the clans, as they would eventually have to give up any gains if the clans reached them.
Using our world still neglects the fact that the clans were isolated with no outside influences to even motivate them. But again, this is the initial invasion. Once those behind the clan lines seen what was happening and possible, they would have started the push for change. This is why the home clans made the push to stay out of the IS. They knew their way of life was doomed if they kept contact.
As for our world, there is always broadcasts, and such that can reach those on the border and even deep inside. No matter how hard they try, they can not keep out foreign broadcasts or even smugglers bringing in examples. This could not happen with the clans until the IS learned of them and the way to get to them.
Also, as said before, the power of plenty did affect the clans. It caused the war of home/IS clans, as well as changed how the IS clans worked. They went from their strict military set up, to becoming kings of sorts. So the power of plenty worked, just not the way you wanted it to.
Absolutism with the statement of any parent will do anything for their children to have a better life. This statement is far from being true. There are more then a few that the parents don't give a damn about their children's lives, beyond listening to the parents. And most would do what they can, but not give anything to reach that goal.
The U.S is having major issues with affirmative action and ethics in the government, so this is where the concept you are trying to make goes to the toilet.
I don't think the developers were thinking the game would be around long enough for their back story to evolve into something that was more then just the SL existed, went into a civil war, and died leaving the states to fight it out. I agree there is a lot of things that is wrong, but the story is that of the people who made the game. So it is correct for their vision of the game. It is the story they say happened.
There are a large set of people that will not understand how to move a neutron, as it is a neutrally charged particle. Even with it written out and shown how, they still will not understand it. This is not true with a lot of people. Just depends on their back ground information.
As it says in the books. Most of the clans shun using vehicles, but they all use some. The 3060 TRO explains this in the first page of the clan vehicles. They realized they needed something more to garrison their worlds, and mechs were considered to be too elite to be tied down to such. So they turned to vehicles and upgraded them. This is a paraphrase of what is written, so don't say it isn't exact. I know it isn't.
But the fact that they were used even in the most reluctant clans, is the key here.
The Anshur specifically states it was used in 3054 against Archer's unit. I didn't reread the entire section as I do have other things to get to at this point.
The not supporting base was in reference to the rest of that paragraph. It means that no matter how pretty the house is on the sink hole, there is nothing really supporting the house. The sink hole will take it sooner or later.
Now to answer the statements following that. The clans did increase the number of ships they used, but they were NOT used for the assaults, as per the agreements. They were moving the garrison units. Just as the initial ships were NOT used to ferry supplies back and forth, as it would remove them from use as assault transports as they did so. And the bids allow replacements of forces to keep up the units strengths. So if you wipe out a dropship before it could deploy the troops it had, the entire unit would be replaced without being considered against the bid.
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Requiem
09/06/20 06:38 PM
1.158.133.26
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Even without using the high grade clan tech, why didn't the IS start making the lighter, less crit normal weapons?
Once more, just like so many more, a point of contention that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever other than to turn the game on its head and purposefully keep the IS in the dark with regards to weapons technology – with the sole purpose of keeping the Clans within a position of technological superiority.
In other words – Cheating in favor of the Clans (in my opinion).
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As for the clans being favored, that is something only you have suggested.
Suggest, you should communicate with more people ….
Please explain
Given the Clans Sibko’s graduating class numbers …. As well as being 6 months distant from the front lines
Please explain the entire Clans Invasion Loss Depletion Report;
Please explain how the Clan’s maintained their Logistics for the entire invasion – given their tyranny of distance from the Clan Home Worlds;
Please do explain how the Clans are able to garrison and pacify so many captured worlds – especially those like Rasalhage that have a population of 5 billion – which in all realty would have required a pacification infantry force in the Hundreds of Thousands to effectively garrison;
Please do explain why the clans and their freeborn appear to be immune to psychology when coming from a closed society to an open one – and how we only ever see one defection in the entire invasion;
Please do explain how Clan Warriors – when confronted with undeniable proof as to what the SLDF stood for many of them did not question who the Clans had become in the future (Psy-ops – and deprogramming a Cult member etc);
Please explain the IS response to not assisting the FRR during the invasion;
Please explain why the FC only used 8% of their available forces against the Clans during the entire invasion – especially when individuals such as Hanse, Morgan, Justin, Jamie, Quintis, Theodore and Takashi are still alive and in full capability of their minds – given past performances on the Battlefield;
Please explain why the IS forces were utilizing outdated tactics throughout the entire invasion (especially post Dragoon Conference - Wolcott and Twycross);
Please explain why the majority of the invasion all IS vehicles were never include within any of the battles – just Mech on Mech;
Please explain Huntress and the destruction of all military industrial capabilities plant and equipment - why would any House unit obey a Mercenary Commander in regards to this order when the stakes are so high?;
Please explain post Falcon / Wolf War and no one from the IS attempts to take them out
Please explain the post Reaving that returns them back to 100% fighting capacity in a manner that is in a quite un-Clan like manner; and
Please do explain also the IS’s inability to reverse engineer Clan Tech or produce new weapons such as an anti elemental (Toad) rifle – an inability to assign their current infantry with SRMs and Inferno Rounds) etc …..
Please do explain why they is such a limited number of IS Omnis when their development increases productivity, repair-ability (spare parts etc) and strategic acumen on the battlefield;
And this is just the tip of the please explains I can drill down to that make no sense at all within the Clan invasion …. Other than to say the whole thing was suspect from the get go ….
Sorry to say but there is a very good argument (in mine and others opinion) that TPTB manipulated the entire invasion – rather than creating a war that makes some sought of logical sense – allows the IS forces to actually be IS forces under the command of people like Morgan, Hanse, Theodore and Takashi– what we got was a canned and manipulated invasion with absolutely no follow-through based upon previous historical information and character development and military engineering development …..
In other worlds it is a real sham of an invasion ….. none of it can be considered to be of any real worth ….. it just lacks credibility ….
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Except for other clans, they didn't really have much competition to stop them at first.
Except for the fact that the Clans replacement personnel numbers from a sibko training unit are ridiculously small – their logistics are a joke (tyranny of distance) – and the IS was never allowed to use attrition warfare tactics as well as SOE / partisan fighting to their fullest; as well as reverse engineering their complete technology; as well as undermining their Cult like status with regards to their freeborn (Garrisons and Technicians / support personnel); The IS were never allowed to fight the Clans Logistics ships …. Etc etc
Which again demonstrates the sham of an invasion ….
The Canon version of the War is little more than a very badly written and extremely boring joke! (again in my opinion) The battles are repetitive and lack any kind of fun when the IS are only allowed to win such small number of battles throughout the Invasion …. Did no one ever realize that it is never any fun to be constantly on the loosing side and you are never allowed to upgrade unless you can get any battlefield salvage?
This is why I champion the view that gamers should create their own version of the invasion and put some life back into the game’s story, whatever happened to parity within the game as to weapons etc in order to keep the game interesting (warships are a good example – they are the biggest gun on the battlefield and yet nothing – not one response from the IS forces. What the???????? ) ….. I have thus provided many different and fascinating side stories for a unit to get involved with (if they want to go down this track) – with just a little more thought the invasion could have been so much more – however from all appearances it was incredibly rushed into production with little to no editing / alpha and beta testing ……..
I am just horribly disappointed with the Canon writing ……
New Books – Oh how I look forward to a complete revisionist history.
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Rasalhague is an oddity. Once the Wolves took it, they kept the leader in position, and they are keeping the peace there.
WW2 – France and all the occupied countries – look at the garrison numbers / secret police etc
Sorry but the information as supplied just does not make any sense - none of the Clans have the cultural abiliy to maintain a Vichy government – their culture is just too alien for an IS government to accept them – the first time they try to impose a Caste system / remove peoples last names / remove children from their families the entire world will turn on them …..
Again more, pitiful plot development by ignoring the issues of their own devisement ….. no ability to think through all the issues …..
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Even though he is now just a warrior in the wolves, he is still considered the crown prince.
Except for the fact he was made a bondsman two years AFTER Rasalhague fell …..
Consider the size of the NYPD to the population of New York …. Sorry but this just does not work the Clans DO NOT have the ability to garrison highly populated worlds – their military is just not that sophisticated / numerous to maintain such a garrison …..
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I was against the massed military movements because of a lack of ships,
Problem is when you compare the Clan Invasion War to that of the 4th Succession War - the idea of a lack of ships evaporates to nothing …. The ships are there …..
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the need for troops to protect worlds
Who do you fear the most? Your neighbors or the Clans? Plus the PF has close to 300 regiments - just put half that amount on the front lines – attrition warfare and see how far the clans get!
So again that point is completely irrelevant!
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Once those behind the clan lines seen what was happening and possible, they would have started the push for change.
Problem with this is their own society rules prohibit them from any “push for change” the Clans are just too hide bound to allow any change!
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No matter how hard they try, they can not keep out foreign broadcasts or even smugglers bringing in examples. This could not happen with the clans until the IS learned of them and the way to get to them.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans
some observers believe that consumerism will soon spread into Clan society and bring about its downfall from within
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They went from their strict military set up, to becoming kings of sorts. So the power of plenty worked, just not the way you wanted it to.
Don’t think so – they are still khans – the king angle can only be considered in the 3150’s
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I don't think the developers were thinking the game would be around long enough for their back story to evolve into something that was more then just the SL existed
When is long enough – the ten year, twenty year or forty year mark – at a point this becomes ridiculous …..
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As it says in the books. Most of the clans shun using vehicles, but they all use some.
Problem is not one maid it into the IS’s Oniginal Canon Invasion War …. All that has changed now … and as such the formation of all Bids to Invade the IS must now be re-written …..
- Fleet numbers must be rewritten – unit compositions must be re-written or new units must now be included etc
Thus the entire war must change with it ….
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So if you wipe out a dropship before it could deploy the troops it had, the entire unit would be replaced without being considered against the bid.
Problem – is that ship and its crew + the Mechs / Vehicles / Elementals / Fighters available in the Clan Home worlds considering the percentage taken on the invasion in comparison the amount remaining on the home world – then there is the issue of “tyranny of distance” – it will take 6 months to get to the front line + the time to get ther crew and the warriors / and their equipment available, and are there any ships even available to be sent at a moments’ notice or should it wait until a complete cargo manifest has been assembled so as to not waste the transport of just one ship and one dropship …. A very un-clan like thing to do …. Waste …..
So agin theu could take some time to replace the dropship and crew and everything that was in it ….. something that the game completely ignored from beginning to end ….
Still not impressed …….. you create the rules / problems then just ignore them because they are just all too hard ….. great way to keep people interested and exited and not cause mass friction with them!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/06/20 09:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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TPTB did what most game producers did. Came out with weapons too powerful, and when the 'heroes' get them, it prevents the next set of enemies from being a threat. They realized that if the IS had clan tech weapons, the next threat, IE WOB, would have been unable to do much as the IS would have weapons equal to or superior to some of WOBs stuff. This would mean a huge number of units would be needed, and WOB just did not have that. So to prevent the threat from being very minor, even with nukes, they had to make sure the houses didn't have the higher tech weapons. This is probably why the stopped producing warships as well for the WOB fight.
Now to stop the whole replacement complaint. As there is NO information on just how many, or if any, warriors the clans lost outside of the novels and story that was told, the numbers lost may well have been so small, they were easily able to replace their losses with other units. It would continue to go along the BS line, as there would be death losses. Even with the superior ranges. Getting into IS firing ranges would produce the occasional head shot with a heavy weapon, or multiple head shots. This would also be ignoring the thru armor shots, that could well take out the mechs engine/gyro. The fall may finish killing the warrior, or at least get them out of the cockpit to be killed then.
There is the major issue of the elementals, as they are supposed to die when the full armor and life points are destroyed. So replacing them would be more of an issue then the mech warriors.
As there is no information on if the clans increased the sibkos, lowered some of the requirements, or just took them from other clans, there is no real way to say if the replacement issues were there or not. Might be the reason why there is no such data put out.
I have tried to answer most of the questions and was told that can't happen. It was done because the developers wanted it that way. Wether it makes sense or not, that is how the story they put out goes. I could say magic is why, but I know that isn't correct. But in the end, the story the developers put out is correct for their game. It can not be wrong as it is their game they made. Buying the rights to use it, is not OWNING it. And that is what you did. Buy the right to use their product.
Making their own concepts is one thing. Saying because of those concepts, the canon version is wrong is another. A point that seems to be missed constantly.
Again. Our history of real life, does not have the same effect in the game. The planetary capital seems to be what determines if the planet surrenders or keeps fighting. It seems that the majority of the planet goes into surrender mode. Even without an invading enemy, you will always have some that actively resists anyone but them being in charge. The game does cover that with the PGCs having issues tracking down those people. A gloss over, but it is something to explain it.
Where is the numbers of ships during the invasion? The numbers were there, but yet no printed information on that. I do agree there should be more ships then in 3025, but how many, and how many actually survive the encounters with the clans is a whole different issue. In all the novels, most dropships that face the clans died. And we know the clans destroyed jumpships, if they didn't take them. So unless you have a massive assault fleet, you would be more likely to waste the ships using them as normal. Hence, not enough ships.
You fear all enemies, as it would still destroy you to stop the clans, yet lose your bases to the CC/FWL or even pirates. So no. You can not leave those worlds without protection. As stated in the books, the intel departments weren't sure if this was just someone found a huge SL base and decided to use it, or something else. It turned out to be something else. But they were looking for the weak links to strike back. Thanks to Comstar, that took far longer then it should have.
Not reading the context yet again. Keeping out coms was about nations on the world TODAY. And as said before, the clans were corrupted by the power of plenty. It just did not work the way you envisioned.
Also the end of that statement needs to be read. Until after the IS found their worlds.. That means until they know where to go, they can't just put a ship in a system and broadcast shows.
Ah. What is a khan? A leader of the Mongol tribes. And those were what? Wanna be kings. They only adapted the king title later on in the game. They all wanted their own kingdom to run. Even when in the clans themselves.
The point was to continue making books that kept the wars going. As said before, they seem to have screwed up, trying to fill in the history of the SL and IS in general. Issues before the SL need to have answers before they can even get into the original expansion into the IS. Resources were low, and only a few ship builders could make jumpships. How did the Alliance lose control of who was allowed out? And how could they have expanded so quickly with limited resources on Terra?
The question of how many of these units were sitting on the outskirts of the periphery, ready to take someones place? The Wolves were the only ones that had anything planned for this. But you still miss the one big fact here. The other clans did NOT target large numbers of worlds. That would suggest they did not have the forces to do so. The concept that they should have folded is not correct.
And now you seem to have comprehended what I have said for a while. The rules were not followed when they were making the story line, so it falls apart as more gets put in.
I do think the lawsuit from Harmony killed a lot of their plans. The risk of another lawsuit could well have stopped any better ideas from being used.
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Requiem
09/07/20 05:43 AM
1.158.133.26
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TPTB did what most game producers did. Came out with weapons too powerful, and when the 'heroes' get them, it prevents the next set of enemies from being a threat.
Problem is, this statement is untrue – next generation weapons will need to counter next generation armor etc – there is a variety of ways weapons and armor can be used to reset the game …. It just takes a creative author / game development member ….
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So to prevent the threat from being very minor, even with nukes, they had to make sure the houses didn't have the higher tech weapons. This is probably why the stopped producing warships as well for the WOB fight.
Problem is, warships are a part of the game, so just minimizing their presence in the game is once more minimizing the issue and turning the game into a farce.
Suggest a rewrite of the rules regarding both construction and lethality / range of their weapons is in order - this is a science fiction military game and the navy has always been a contributor to all military warfare. So again I postulate that there should be multiple maps for this game
1. Space from point of entry to planet in question for all naval battles;
2. Atmospheric map for a Dropships entry and aerospace fighter combat;
3. Multitude of ground maps – one planetary size – one for a coupe of hundred kilometers in every direction for deployment of RCT and one for small scale engagements – just remember there needs to be a way of mixing air with land and a way fo represent the altitude of aircraft etc …..
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Now to stop the whole replacement complaint. As there is NO information on just how many, or if any, warriors the clans lost outside of the novels and story that was told, the numbers lost may well have been so small, they were easily able to replace their losses with other units.
This is the point I am making! Read the after action reports of the majority of every battle …..
IS departs the world with a mixed battalion of survivors …etc.
The Clans – not one word as to their dead and wounded – nothing….
With a sibko system of 100 groups you would be lucky to get 300 Replacement per year …. And considering one IS Military academy can put out a couple of thousand graduates per year the disparity between the two systems is incredibly vast – thus even a few dead per battle will have accumulated effects – especially when it takes six months for any replacements to arrive …..
Again in a tournament style Invasion – The Clans need someone to keep track of their numbers – otherwise we could end up with another Cannon version of the Invasion – completely unbelievable!
And yes Elementals are an issue in the game – especially when you give all your infantry Jump and a Hellfire SRM – and when they are provided with a military armor piercing sniper rifle ….
Again when limiting the Clans with a set number, a ridiculously small replacement numbers and add in attrition warfare system how are the clans supposed to win against anything …. The Clans system of warfare is completely unsuited for warfare within the inner sphere!
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As there is no information on if the clans increased the sibkos, lowered some of the requirements, or just took them from other clans, there is no real way to say if the replacement issues were there or not.
Except for the fact that mathematics and the Pryde Sybko information prove the hole idea of the sibko system is a joke!
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I have tried to answer most of the questions and was told that can't happen. It was done because the developers wanted it that way. Whether it makes sense or not, that is how the story they put out goes.
And in so doing they have created a joke of a story which will not stand the test of time and in all probability will cause the game to fall because they do not realize that their customer driven target market’s dynamics has dramatically changed – though they will have fun when they jump to Warhammer and either the Tau or the Eldar I guess, as they know how to amend the game to meet new target market dynamics (have you looked at all their new dynamics within the game lately? – each identifying a new target market) and their inventory is vastly superior! So either get to work asap or fold!
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the story the developers put out is correct for their game
Ha ha ha ha …good joke….oh, your serious?
Jihad and everything thereafter is a joke of a story ….. The Clans’ Invasion at least has a chance at redemption ….
It is a fact that every business must constantly re-evaluate their target market – when was the last time a value proposition canvas was considered?
This game is not TPTB driven to produce sales – it is understanding your client and fulfilling their needs driven – so unless it is fixed their sales will shrink even further as the competition is supplying the target market with what they want!
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Even without an invading enemy, you will always have some that actively resists anyone but them being in charge. The game does cover that with the PGCs having issues tracking down those people. A gloss over, but it is something to explain it.
Problem is the PGCs are incredibly small and not very well equipped as their primary duty back on the Clan Home worlds was to Clean up the Circle of equals after the True born finished fighting. 3050 Jade Falcon – only had 2 IS Regiments worth of PGCs – so can anyone explain how this is going to help with anything?
Again they wrote the game and the mathematics of the game does not correlate with the story – it is just a complete joke!
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Where is the numbers of ships during the invasion? The numbers were there, but yet no printed information on that.
The Clans numbers are provided!
Then loot at the number of Units that started the 4th Succession War within the Atlas – this can be considered the minimum amount that can be dispatched during the initial period for the Clan Invasion - so YES there is a printed amount that can be used for the IS!
So yes I do have a massive assault fleet that I can send in my 150 FC units to engage the Clans!
Hence yes there are enough ships!
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yet lose your bases to the CC/FWL
First the CC should be destroyed by the time the Clans Invaded ….
And as for the FWL at the time of the Invasion they had 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions (20 year update) – so again the FC could easily put enough forces on their border to keep them in line and still have sufficient forces to take on the Clans
As for pirates – they used to live in the Clan Invasion Corridor – so how many remain?
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Thanks to Comstar, that took far longer then it should have.
Problem is that Hanse would have put a Black Box with every unit so that ComStar could never interfere with them again and also due to their recent shadow war!
Which again shows how much of a Joke the story gets when they do not even comprehend the actions of their own characters!
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they can't just put a ship in a system and broadcast shows.
Why not? It is a completely legitimate tactic – consider Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty ….
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The point was to continue making books that kept the wars going.
And when was the last serious book put out to continue the war - that could be considered worth purchasing? When was the last book put about regarding 3150 onwards that could be considered worth getting …… Jihad and everything after this is not really what I would call a good story ….. so again make your own or give up and go to warhammer.
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The other clans did NOT target large numbers of worlds. That would suggest they did not have the forces to do so.
Taken a look at a Clan Invasion Map lately?
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The concept that they should have folded is not correct.
The point is the game lacks any pathos …. It is the same pitiful battle over and over with no real complexity and fun …. It completely ignores standard Battelfield Tactics as to becoming completely moronic!
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I do think the lawsuit from Harmony killed a lot of their plans.
No in my opinion it was issue with Germany.
And there is no other law suit!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/07/20 02:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is a problem with the advancement of armor and weapons. It is the same one as the warships are showing. If you don't have them yourself, you are at a severe disadvantage when those that do, come knocking.
Soon the game comes to which armor do you have verse which weapon being the only way to survive. One hit kills comes about. Things like neutron or anti matter bombs start showing up, with anti matter being more dangerous then nukes. The SL weapon packages were a step up, but they fell flat of the 'lore' that they were far superior to 3025 weapons. Then clan weapons were that much more dangerous. This also brings up the BS of range.
As I said before. The 'ultimate' weapon becomes an issue when the 'heroes' get them. The ability to threaten the heroes afterwards starts getting stupidly powerful. How many weapons do you really need that can destroy a planet in one shot?
All those maps suggested do exist. Not in one game set or one piece, but you can set it all up. The large planet map is mainly putting together the map sets you get with the game, and probably buying more. If you want them all in one box, that isn't going to happen. Those people that don't play aerotech/battlespace don't want that stuff put in their sets. It takes up room for other things they do like, and play.
But why not have a set up that the ships fight each other around the jump point, then head in?
Technically the game did have another invasion of the clans. When the clans that lost the civil war were looking for a new place to set up.
And the example of the elementals wasn't about their power, but how many were lost in battle. They die quicker then mechs do. And with this, they die, as opposed to the mech warrior surviving their ordeal a lot of the time. So the loss/replacement system show up more with this, then mechs. One way I can see them getting this 'taken' care of is for the khans to say that those that failed in the final trial of position be allowed to fight, but use them to soften up the enemy. They may well have been allowed to become the garrison units as well. Doesn't matter about the stigma of it, when you need the people, you do things that are not popular with the others. Having these warriors do the pitiful guard duty, will prevent the front line from having to do so. And the warriors that did pass, but were relegated to the garrison forces can be used to fill in gaps.
For the clan home world fights before the invasion, the sibko system was actually better then most. They did not have so many casualties resulting in death. Except for the elementals again. It was good to have new warriors coming up, but not so many that you have a problem with too many looking for so few blood name slots. The excess is part of what leads up to the civil wars, as the younger ones get upset about the upward advancement opportunities. Much like the Wolves started to have. For the IS warfare, it was horrible, unless you changed some of the things and even then, if done like the succession wars were, the sibko example would have to have 50% or more in order to just keep level with the losses. That is 5000 per year per clan.
35 years sounds like it is standing the time test. Might not be hugely used among the masses, but even at it's height, I don't think it was that huge. There are issues with the marketing. Getting their stuff together is something that has to be done in order to grow again. The rule issue is the biggest thing that I see. Without it set up and USED all the time, it creates the issues they have now and will always have. Good stories can not be written when the next story in a series changes most of the outcomes because the rules were changed. D&D gets away with it but doing things Battle Tech can't. Things like Forgotten Realms god war. Changing the old magic system by limiting things like Magic Missile. Now a 20th level mage is not a machine gunner.
No matter how good or poor the story is, it is correct for their game. It is the basis people use to avoid overly complicated times of trying to explain house rules. Granted, there has to be more then normal with a few things. But it still is the basis of what happened and how. It is better then not having any information, but wasn't done properly. Then again, at the time it was done, having it all fact checked wasn't a huge deal. People would still play it, even if the Empire jumped on the Borg, and left the Jedi Knights have the Romulans. As more games came out that were not riddled with continuity issues, did it become apparent that this style of writing would not hold up.
I do agree that they seemed to not think large enough, but as said before. The owner of the capital sends out security details, such as the normal police, to deal with most of the issues. The government change is not a huge factor in their concepts. Otherwise, the entire succession wars and the 4th war, could not have held onto more then a couple of worlds max. Not sure if they tried to make the fear of the clans keep them from doing what the worlds that got invaded tended to do.
The numbers of reserve ships that can be used. I don't think the clans had a huge number of dropships in reserve to replace the ones that should have been destroyed.
And again. The 4th war is not the example of how many ships they had. That was gutting the commercial sector of their required ships. In this case, you do not want to destroy your economy trying to stop the clans. It was thought they were not an organized entity, that had deeper reserves then what might be found in an SL castle. The concept of waiting until the enemy over extended then slamming them didn't pan out.
Might need to relook at the map of the IS. Pirates live in all sections of the periphery around the IS. Ignoring the TC and OA, there were more then a few pirate bands in the areas by the FS and DC. They were not as famous as the ones in the clans path, but there. Having the forces pulled out of those areas, would encourge them to strike and others to become pirates themselves, as the amount of forces to stop them would be far to inadequate. This isn't even including the single systems that would try to cede once the main forces left. And there were more then a few of them in the FS. The DC is an oddity, as most would think they would all want to rebel, but it isn't that simple.
How many systems are between the IS and clan homeworlds? Where are they before Trent got the location for them? Those ships were better used for moving troops, then sitting in probable empty systems. This is even riskier then wolfpack hunts.
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Requiem
09/07/20 05:57 PM
1.158.133.26
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If you don't have them yourself, you are at a severe disadvantage
This can be said with all weapons – this is ere a strong air arm and anti ship missiles come in – or there are other weapons that can be used, such as WMDs (If you want to go down that track)
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One hit kills comes about.
First, only if you have not done sufficient beta testing.
Second, head shots still occur now!
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Things like neutron or anti matter bombs start showing up, with anti matter being more dangerous then nukes.
Only if you want to go down that track …. For me I have gotten rid of all WMDs as they really do not work in the game – as for warships this is where you have a mother loving Navy War!
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Then clan weapons were that much more dangerous.
Only because the Beta testing for Clan weapons was a dismal failure – however over time the IS should be allowed to Reverse engineer Clan Tech – thus over time they will be on Par with weapon systems (for the most part) – and this will also include range
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How many weapons do you really need that can destroy a planet in one shot?
The question should be asked as to why you need them?
However, that said, the game already has them ….. WMDs …. How many Worlds were killed off during the Jihad era? Again bad writing equates to bad game …..
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All those maps suggested do exist.
For the cannon game – yes; for me – no, keep tinkering – plus they will be required when TPTB wake up and realize that the idea of proper scanners are required - 3025 Infantry had them out to 100Km so how far should a Mechs’ be out to?
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Those people that don't play aerotech/battlespace don't want that stuff put in their sets. It takes up room for other things they do like, and play.
Then enjoy a 1/4 game – no space, no air, no sea – just land and for those want a complete game its all there!
Why should there only be allowed limited game play? It s up to each group to decide for themselves what universe they want to be in and what weapons are in or out ……
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But why not have a set up that the ships fight each other around the jump point, then head in?
They already can …. It is up to each group to decide on the tactics / where to fight.
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Technically the game did have another invasion of the clans. When the clans that lost the civil war were looking for a new place to set up.
Who / what?
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So the loss/replacement system show up more with this, then mechs.
The point is boot camps can produce massive numbers quickly – sibko elementals on the other hand cannot …. Massive limitation for the Clans!
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One way I can see them getting this 'taken' care of is for the khans to say that those that failed in the final trial of position be allowed to fight, but use them to soften up the enemy.
This can only occur if the entire Clan society is changed …. Remember Huntress when the failed trial of position offered to fight – they were rebuffed and told to stay in their technical position!
So unless you want an Alt Universe where this mod has been put in – its out!
And No garrison forces, unless the entire Clans Society is changed at the same time!
Though the biggest problem with the Clans is their populations – one world within the IS has a greater population that the Clans themselves – attrition warfare will roll them over!
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For the clan home world fights before the invasion, the sibko system was actually better then most. They did not have so many casualties resulting in death. Except for the elementals again.
The Clans Play at war – with circles of equals and all their rules ….
The IS actually live War
Massive difference
Sibkos are just not geared up for IS war – they may produce excellent individual pilots – but the IS produce MASS pilots – and in an attrition war the many will crush the one!
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the sibko example would have to have 50% or more in order to just keep level with the losses. That is 5000 per year per clan.
5000 Graduates each year - That’s any where between 1,500 and 2, 500 sibkos – thus your scientists will need to create between 150,000 and 250,000 children each year (1-3 graduates out of a sibko of 100)
Question given the total population of each clan how are they supposed to accommodate such a rapid increase in population when each Clan has such limited resources?
And where does any clan have 250,000 Iron wombs stored – plus the people to look after the infants etc …..
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The rule issue is the biggest thing that I see. Without it set up and USED all the time, it creates the issues they have now and will always have.
Yes it does need fixing …..
But without an adequate cash flow fixing the rules is pointless …..
And at this stage the only way to generate a suitable cash flow is through Novels.
Games per unit cost too much and require far too much work and are then only limited to game stores and e-commerce. Novels have a far greater reach in Book stores and e-commerce.
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Good stories can not be written when the next story in a series changes most of the outcomes because the rules were changed.
Just need one good editor! The remainder can be worked out in Alpha and Beta testing ……
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The government change is not a huge factor in their concepts.
Between Houses on the borders yes I agree it was not seen as a big deal
But we are no longer stating this – we have now introduced the Clans and their way of life – it is just too Alien for any IS individual to accept – thus war to the death / mass partisan warfare IEDs etc
Someone dropped the ball and did not think this through al all! And in so doing turned the game’s history into a Joke ….
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The numbers of reserve ships that can be used. I don't think the clans had a huge number of dropships in reserve to replace the ones that should have been destroyed.
Again no numbers were included thus turning the issue into a guessing match once more …..
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In this case, you do not want to destroy your economy trying to stop the clans.
Completely disagree ….. this is war like none that have come before …. If you do not win now there could not be a rematch for a 1,000 years …… This is a war for the survival of the IS way of life – it is all or nothing …. Something that Steiner, Davion and Kurita would recognize instantly …..and something TPTB just did not understand with their ridiculous narrative ….
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Pirates live in all sections of the periphery around the IS.
And how many pirate clans still exist in 3050 – a dozen at best?
So how much damage are they going to do?
This in not like Exo Squad with Simbacca and his pirates …..
And where did the majority of all these pirates live? …. Right on top of the Clan Invasion Route …. So how many remain?
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Those ships were better used for moving troops, then sitting in probable empty systems. This is even riskier then wolfpack hunts.
Any time a ship is used by either Clan or IS forces it is a risk ….. it does not matter where they are the risk is all the same.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/07/20 05:58 PM)
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ghostrider
09/08/20 12:31 AM
66.74.60.165
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One shot doesn't always kill with a head shot. Anything 9 damage and under isn't, for a lot of mechs. But I was talking more along the lines of wiping out the center torso armor without the thru armor crit. Such as a robotech particle beam canon would do to almost any mech.
Have to have and actually do have is a far cry from each other. Simple things like having your ship yards wiped out before you even get one off, tends to show the issue, and with some, they could not even get a yard going. The whole concept of wolf packs is to deny the enemy resources to do anything. Sometimes that is very easy as resources must come from another world, as the current one is tapped out. Even just having a factory that can produce the components you need isn't easy.
The issue is the fact that armor really bites in the game. The supposed SL armor was supposed to be superior to normal armor of the future, yet it wasn't. It was the same thing, and even the Ferrous armor wasn't that much better. The weapons, were still lacking in range that should have been easy to obtain with at least ballistic cannons. Energy weapons I can give a little leeway, as range tends to remove their effectiveness. Missiles are light dumbfire, which are almost rockets for targeting. But a single klick being impossible for them to hit is really horrible.
And I will bring up a funny or horrible thing with Infantry sensors. They can detect other infantry units if I recall right. Something mechs are supposed to have issues with at 90 meters.
No. The game has weapons that removes life on a world, not the world itself. But that was in reference to most games that start coming out and using things like the death star weapon. Then in order to threaten the players again, you need another weapon even more powerful, or different so they can't use the one that got last war, to research a way to stop that one. Bigger, badder weapons have a way of getting to the point that no matter what you do, once the players get them, threats stop being so dangerous.
Actually, it is just no space that they tend to miss. You can run Aerofighters in strafes and bombs. The rest can be done as well, though sea is a bit trickier to pull off. Custom maps are required if you try to use sea ships with mechs on land.
The only way I could see getting around this is having multiple box sets on the shelf that entail different levels of units. But given the lack of shelf space in most hobby stores, this is a losing proposition at best. Granted, you are more likely to find this on line then find a hobby store that even sells box games.
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ghostrider
09/08/20 12:56 AM
66.74.60.165
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The complaint of the kingdoms carved out by the clans would be the second invasion idea. From the sounds of it, the IS did worse against the few that actually did this.
And you want the clans to be able to produce as many warriors as the IS with their better skills and superior tech? And you say the clans are favored as it is? They would never have let Comstar fight the proxy battle for Terra. They would have been there to destroy the entire IS houses, and anyone that didn't fall to their knees and worship them. It is a very BAD idea for them to have access to that many reinforcements. It is one of the few weaknesses they had to begin with.
And now you might understand the reason they had warships. To prevent the IS from just sending in thousands of ships to attrition the clans to death. So the balance isn't as one sided as you want it to be. They did not really use this, but it seems to be set up so they could have.
I guess you missed where it was said that you would have to have 50% or more to even run equal? Not increasing the number of sibkos, but increasing the number that actually make it to pilot something.
Putting out novels and having the whole thing get changed leaves a bad taste for those that bought it. That in turn, causes what is going on today. More then a few people started seeing cash digs with some of the books. They had to purchase multiple books just to get all the information needed to play for a while. And they had some information in all of them, which seemed like they were just filling pages. The rule books also ignored the 'canon' items that were in adventure packs as well as other sources. The Battletechnology magazine was one such item. It was official for a very short time, yet it made it sound like it was all official.
How does a good story not being possible when you change the outcome in the next book have anything to do with alpha and beta testing? Before putting out the books, you should have all the testing done.
Again. The houses concepts were much like that before the clans arrived. The brutality of some nations would force those from others to fight to the death, or suffer the long death from the violent issues from an enemy house.
So there is nothing new with the clans way of life. The only thing that might comfort those in IS house changes, is the fact that their original nation may well retake the world.
So you would destroy your nation trying to stop the enemy, but with this, only having the books tell you what they had, doesn't even have you even considering they didn't have the reserves for a second or third push. This is another example of having the outcome in your hands, then modifying the past to change the future.
Again, the lack of knowing the IS shows thru. The better known pirates lived near the LC/periphery border, but they were not the only ones. There were plenty more living in other areas of the Periphery around the IS. The CC/FS/FWL had pirates hitting them a lot, and they weren't from the LC area. Tortuga is one such world that they lived on. Some lived in the 50 system cluster in the FS, if I recall. I can't remember the ones by the FWL at the moment. The MoS had sent in raids under the guise of pirates against others as well as other established houses. Some were renegades from those nations, while others just framed them.
A single dropship in a system without a jumpship is at greater risk the one in the middle of a war fleet. So no. The danger is not equal in all situations.
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Requiem
09/08/20 05:06 AM
1.158.133.26
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Such as a robotech particle beam canon would do to almost any mech.
Gundam Weapon Systems would be a far more accurate fit – Beam Weapons and I-Field Barrier …..
Still it does not change the fact that for a good writer there is always another option such as an energy field (I Filed Barrier) …..
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having your ship yards wiped out before you even get one off, tends to show the issue, and with some,
And this is why with regards to ship years they are ….
1. Placed in a hidden location;
2. Surrounded by multiple mine fields;
3. Have a small Naval fleet attached to them permanently;
4. Have multiple squadrons of defensive fighter units; and
5. Massive early warning Detection grid / with EMC Grid etc.
As for Wolfpacks …. This is why they are an elite fighting force …..
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armor really bites in the game.
Then create a new home rule …. You don’t have to be enslaved to the rules all the time – just go with the flow ….
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The game has weapons that removes life on a world, not the world itself.
Gall Force – system Killers are more fun in the super weapons race – turning a sun into a super nova!
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getting to the point that no matter what you do, once the players get them, threats stop being so dangerous.
This is why you have competent rulers who make sure the weapon is a one off or it has a flaw or for what-ever reason it becomes a piece of junk …..
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you are more likely to find this on line then find a hobby store that even sells box games.
Errrr …. Problem is where I live there are about a dozen shops specializing in nothing but box games / D&D / Jigsaws etc …. And still no Battletech, even in the most recent magazines on the subject of board games …. Still no Battletech …… where as during the 80’s I had a shop devoted entirely to Battletech and other games and yet now …. NIL
This is one of my pet hates ….. where once there was dominance in the market now …. Zip!
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the kingdoms carved out by the clans
Sorry to say but I have decided to given up on that history (and any book therein) …. As some of the information contained there-in disgusts me …. Thus I will make my own way with regards to history post MY ALT Clan Invasion …..
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And you want the clans to be able to produce as many warriors as the IS with their better skills and superior tech
Comprehension again? ….. No what I want is completely re-written Clan sociology that no longer takes the majority of its salient points from the “Ducks” and the Canon’s Amaris forces.
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Comstar fight the proxy battle for Terra
This is perhaps one of the most contrived and badly written points in the game.
The idea that the IS would allow the Clans to remain in the IS is ludicrous ….. this is war of attrition to the death, it is total war …. It is not this panzy lets takes a break for 15 years and do nothing to prepare for the oncoming war other than to not utilize the time fully and only take out one clan as written within Canon … which takes the concept of war to a new high in absurd war concepts!
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It is a very BAD idea for them to have access to that many reinforcements. It is one of the few weaknesses they had to begin with.
As weaknesses go can anyone show me where this rule was obeyed by TPTB within the majority of Clan Invasion or post there of?
The Invasion – not one time do we see the clans have problems with replacement personnel numbers
Falcon / Wolf War – they are brought back up to 100% with reaving and the IS do absolutely nothing to stop them?
The Wolfs are supposed to have reaved the Jaguars post Falcon / Wolf War – can the DC take advantage of this fact?
The only time it is seen is when the entire IS attack the Jaguars and this was the point of the story to begin with!
Sorry, but as weaknesses go it was never allowed to be exploited by the IS thus making the point a very bad joke.
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It is a very BAD idea for them to have access to that many reinforcements. It is one of the few weaknesses they had to begin with.
And this is where you have a good author the point becomes a number massive wars over hundreds years fought throughout the Deep Periphery (the space separating the two realms). In which multiple new realms are forged and destroyed in the process …. So the balance isn’t as one sided as you want it to be…. In addition new weapons could have been developed for new wars with new story arcs for each war situated in different areas of space …. Far more exciting than the game with a massive number of new opportunities than that of what the TPTB want to do …. keep eternally locked within the IS ……
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Not increasing the number of sibkos, but increasing the number that actually make it to pilot something.
This is what scientists call diluting …. And the Clans would say they are just allowing inferior warriors though the system …. Remember the Clan’s Societies rules are set in stone it is not as if you can just go messing with them and still call them the Clans …. Yes I do mess them and I have re-written them on multiple occasions for a variant Alt consideration …. The point is would anyone else consider doing this?
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Putting out novels and having the whole thing get changed leaves a bad taste for those that bought it
Actually it is a complete unknown …. Run a focus group / complete a survey and find out …. However at the end of the day money will win out – possible new members + old guard who like the idea Versus the number of old guard who quit – who will be the most profitable in the long run –new Vs old – old is a fixed number and very small, but in business you have to bet on continually expanding the target market, increasing profitability continually in the hopes of expanding the business …..
Thus 2.0 (in my opinion) is the only real possibility for future expansion of the game as the current history just does not make the grade … and for any future expansion it required a knowledge of what came before – thus again limiting the target market from the get go …..
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How does a good story not being possible when you change the outcome in the next book have anything to do with alpha and beta testing? Before putting out the books, you should have all the testing done.
How much in available funds are present for testing and experimental rules (pure outlay of funds) etc Versus how much a novel will bring (expense + Revenue = Cash that can be used to fund testing)
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The houses concepts were much like that before the clans arrived.
This is where I disagree, in the beginning there were well written books that did not (for the most part) include atrocities / wanton violence just for the thrill of putting it in / human concepts that just turn your stomach …..
Yes a level of violence is included in the nature of the game / however there are some lines that should never have been crossed …
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So there is nothing new with the clans way of life.
Really?????????
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This is another example of having the outcome in your hands
Again the canon game is about as realistic as a cat flap in an elephant house ….
When your neighbor’s house is burning you don’t quibble over the price of the hose and water …
What you do is build a broad coalition of forces to repel the Clans ….
Ie. First Army Group to engage the Clans – The NEW SLDF would be created far earlier than given in Canon …..
FC – 100 to 125 RCT (1/3rd of the Complete FC Force)
CC – Dead and integrated into the FC
DC – 70-80 Regiments (The majority of their Forces)
FRR – All of their forces 16 Regiments
ComStar – Half to All 50 Regiments - to atone for their sin of being complicit with the Clans
Wolf’s Dragoons – All 5 Regiments
FWL - ? who knows if they will join and even if they did how many they would assign.
St Ives - ? those loyal and those from the former CC who defected rather than be destroyed by the FC in the war of 39-40
Doubtful the Periphery realms will take an active stand as the war would be considered too distant – and not their problem!
Ie. Just as it is done now – build a broad multi nation coalition (under the banner of the UN and in the game the SLDF) force go in and do not stop until one side of the other is dead! That is TOTAL WAR!
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The CC/FS/FWL had pirates hitting them a lot,
How many and of what quality? And how many dies when they hunted down and got Lady Death? So realistically how many and how many actually have the transport to conduct a raid?
And realistically how much damage could these forces inflict?
PS – Isn’t this the reason we have Mercenaries and Pirate Contracts?
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A single dropship in a system without a jumpship is at greater risk the one in the middle of a war fleet. So no. The danger is not equal in all situations.
First, yes the danger is not equal in all situations
Second, the target is what determines the risk – one drop-ship on a no nothing planet has virtually no risk
Where as one in the middle of a war fleet attacking a capitol world (ie Terra) and the risk just went through the roof ….
Situations are what determine the risk …. Not the size of the force ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/08/20 05:08 AM)
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ghostrider
09/08/20 01:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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Doesn't really matter what game/weapon system you say, it comes down to the fact that sooner or later, there is no real fight, but who gets the first shot off that hits, wins. This is something that happens in almost all games. The next ultimate weapon soon becomes the standard weapon, and a new one needs to be made. It isn't a slight upgrade, but a large one. But then besides numbers, that is the only real way you can threaten the heros.
Yeah. Good luck assembling that fleet to protect your ship yards when you don't have them to begin with. This is an issue with shipyards outside of well protected areas, and even that, what do you protect? The world(s) or the ship yards?
But then I don't have warships pop out my backside on a moments notice. Same with making the yards themselves.
Interesting. It is fun to play with a weapon that destroys a solar system, yet other WMD are horrible and need to be forbidden? Something is off with this one.
So the fact that the Falcons and Jaguars didn't target more systems due to the lack of supplies isn't there? Had they had the supplies, such as reinforcements, they would have hit more systems. But since it didn't cause them to lose, it therefore can not be considered?
If the clans had the reinforcements of the IS, the fight for just invading Terra would not have happened, but a pure broad wave of all the clans would have come about. Not a single clan would be left behind, as they would all be screaming to punish the IS for destroying the SL. The idea of the ilclan would not have been put up, as it was not set for a 1 out of 4 chance to become it. The Jaguars and Falcons thought only they would come out as ilclan. Had there been even the 7 that fought in the Truce battle, they would not have suggested the ilclan prize. Too much risk of someone else getting it. And that may well be part of why the 2 clans were doing so poorly in the numbers game. Holding back units to hit the others when they got close to Terra.
The initial novel may do well, but any coming after the change of the story, would have people avoid buying it, as it would only be changed in the next one, or the one after that. So one time increase, and then major sales drop would happen. Sounds kind of fimiliar.
Have you read any novels dealing with the DC involved? All of them have some autrocity happening in them. Poisoning water supplies, executing the masses with swords or even just killing them. Nukes. Attacking other units from the DC just because they were not someone part of anothers forces. Force labor camps, which the CC employs as well.
The DC is not that far off the clans when it comes to your complaint. The only thing they don't do is remove the last name, as the clans did to try and prevent those from being used as an excuse to start crap.
Really. That fact that someone has taken over, and has destroyed your way of life doesn't change between WHO invades. You are no longer considered part of one nation, but now have to deal with new laws and new leaders that are probably worse then the ones you just got cut off from, by your upbringing.
The pirate reason is why garrison contracts exist in such large numbers. And normally it is pirate contracts that are sent out to hunt the pirates where they are suspected to live. House troops tend to be used in other roles. But what do you know. The idea of stripping those worlds of troops would cause a dramatic influx of pirates, as people will see they can get much richer and more powerful by hitting those worlds while the troops are elsewhere. And with the clans, those troops won't be back soon.
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Requiem
09/08/20 05:48 PM
1.158.133.26
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Doesn't really matter what game/weapon system you say, it comes down to the fact that sooner or later, there is no real fight, but who gets the first shot off that hits, wins.
First, The authors of the Game
Second, The Rules of the Game
The Games is dependent upon those who play it and the underlying rules contained therein – if you want an ultimate weapon, fine put it in – if you don’t then don’t – it is as simple as that!
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Yeah. Good luck assembling that fleet to protect your ship yards when you don't have them to begin with.
Fine – massive big wing attack groups with hundreds of nuclear warhead anti ship missles.
In the Alt you do not have to be so hide bound as remain with the Canon.
This is a problem of the Clan Invasion – I have solved it by allowing the House units to have Navies of their own – Thus a Mother Loving Navy War will be included – and as such the use of WMDs is removed from the game – Wiin Win !!!!!!
And yes the ship yards are hidden from all …..
As it is about time I brought some degree of sanity back within my Alt Game.
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Interesting. It is fun to play with a weapon that destroys a solar system, yet other WMD are horrible and need to be forbidden? Something is off with this one.
Need to recognize when some-one is being satirical ……
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So the fact that the Falcons and Jaguars didn't target more systems due to the lack of supplies isn't there? Had they had the supplies, such as reinforcements, they would have hit more systems. But since it didn't cause them to lose, it therefore can not be considered?
Convoluted much?
When looking at great deal of the Clans Military how many times do you see units requiring a great deal of time to rebuild – not many – Jade Falcon Guards took 20 months to rebuild post Tywcross – what about the rest of the Touman how long does it take them to rebuild from battle damage sustained ?
There is no consistency in the Game for continuing Battle damage sustained by the Clans except in rare circumstances – and yet the IS is expected to continually accept massive damage that cannot be repaired – it is a double standard one for the Clans and one for the IS ……
And quite frankly is one of the pitiful elements of the Clan Invasion …..
All battle damage from both sides must be calculated and quantified for every battle and a dedicated repair system as to re-supply / re-armament / reinforcement numbers should have been determined for all parties involved prior to the invasion beginning - thus once the war begins cumulated damage can be determined and factored into the Invasion ….. and yet what we got was ………
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If the clans had the reinforcements of the IS, the fight for just invading Terra would not have happened, but a pure broad wave of all the clans would have come about.
Forgetting two important factors …. POPULATION and SOCIETY
Consider the population of any single or even the total clans to that of the IS – they are extremely limited in people power by their population! They are even further hampered by their Caste System which completely restricts movement between the Castes ie a labor caste member cannot become a warrior unless at a young age they are chosen as one of a very few to be allowed of test for a position in a PGC – and even then these units are incredibly small – Jade Falcons was only equivalent to 2 IS Regiments!
Then there is the issue of garrisons – the Clans DO NOT have the numbers to take an ever increasing number of worlds and at the same time have enough forces to drive ever onwards onto Terra – this is a mathematical FACT! Their limited numbers due to the bidding system do not allow for the Clans to maintain world garrisons and at the same time drive on Terra – they will reach a point long before reaching terra where they will have to give up garrisoning worlds so that they can continue the advance!
Which again shows how idiodic the idea of a Clan Whatever empire is in the far future – they are constrained by numbers – and the idea that IS people will join the Clans is so implausible as to be considered ridiculous in the extreme!
Whereas within the IS people of any walks of life can join the military – and if we introduce the draft we get an exponential increase to the militaries size – and if we introduce a total war economic program as they did during WW2 the idea of the Clans surviving an attrition war becomes little more than a formality.
They may have technology – but this is only for a very short period of time as the IS should be able to reverse engineer it ….. and as proven so many times governments do not care for cost overruns when it comes to war so the idea of it costing too much to manufacture is again a ludicrous concept with game!
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Not a single clan would be left behind, as they would all be screaming to punish the IS for destroying the SL.
Again that pesky nuisance of the Clan’s society rears its head …. The Clans are elitist and as such only the worthy may proceed – and only the worthy who are chosen in combat - so again a complete re-write as to Clans society would be required to allow a full clan invasion of the IS ….
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Holding back units to hit the others when they got close to Terra.
Again …. No ….. the clans are extremely hedonistic and elitist – they must prove their racial superiority every day and as such they cannot consider the idea of holding back on anything – they have a mental attitude of win in everything every single day … this is just who and what they are!
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The initial novel may do well, but any coming after the change of the story, would have people avoid buying it,
Supposition and completely not true – it completely comes down to how well the first was received by the mass market as to how well as second will be received – hopefully an increasing target share with word of mouth driving sales for a second / third re-print of the first novel ….. i.e. increasing profit margin!
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Have you read any novels dealing with the DC involved?
Completely given up on these …..
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You are no longer considered part of one nation, but now have to deal with new laws and new leaders that are probably worse then the ones you just got cut off from, by your upbringing.
How did that work out for most of the rebellious nations? How many partisan / freedom groups evolved and how well did they strike back at their oppressors – and for that matter how long did some of these partisan groups survive for – as there are still some in existence that’s membership is now well over 100 years old – IRA started in 1919 and before that there was the Volunteer force established in 1913 – and how many times have the Irish fought the English for Independence dating back how many hundreds of years prior to this?
Time to get real … the Clans society is just too alien for that of the IS no matter if they do conquer a world they do not have the ability to subjugate and re-educate an entire world’s population to that of their society (they just do not have the population or the experience (psy-ops) to implement such a plan) - and how many like the FRR are completely stuck in their ways (hidebound) as to their society its origins and how they will live!
Sorry but no, the Games simplified if you are conquered you will adopt the new society way of thinking / policy is about as simplistic and completely laughable as it comes.
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The pirate reason is why garrison contracts exist in such large numbers.
Large Numbers? – sorry but no, there are not more than a dozen pirate groups who have access to a Jump Ship in the entire IS! So again there is no real problem from the pirate issue – if there were then every military within every Great House would have a dedicated military detachment who’s sole purpose is the eradication of the pirate issue – and as they don’t there is no great pirate issue …..
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dramatic influx of pirates
Please quote – how many pirate units have their own Jumpships?
Dramatic Influx – isn’t this taking it way too far …. There is no pirate issue!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/08/20 09:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still not understanding what I am getting at? Games continue to put out bigger and better weapons until it comes a time where the planet killers pop up. That is a problem they all have, as they can't do much with keeping weapons even and making tactics the thing that is allowing one side or the other to start winning. The resort to the more damaging weapons to make it a threat.
Back to square one I see. The alt does not fix the issues of the clans, as the warships were not really used to take out worlds. But again. The whole clan issue comes from the logic fails of the SL era. Things that should not have ever come about. The entire succession wars should never have come about from the way the back story is presented. And putting in something to prevent the end from happening one way is not fixing it. It is just changing the beginning to prevent the original ending.
And yet again, the lie of saying canon is wrong because the alt says so, isn't going to get a free pass like it did anymore.
And the Falcon Guards rebuilt from what? Dezgra warriors and freeborn? But you said that wouldn't happen as the clans were so hide bound. Hmmm.. Sounds like what would have happened with needing any reinforcements.
By the way. How many of the same units were used in multiple combats? The trinary size ones? So the fact that maybe the galaxy commanders did take some losses but were able to hide it because they didn't use all the forces at once, but shifted thru different units, so they had the 6 months to get new supplies shipped to them? Sidelining the hurt ones that could not continue to fight effectively? Yeah. There is no reason for reserves in order to do something like this..
For the clans, population and society didn't matter. They believed they would just walk in, and destroy the few miserable warriors that even had the courage to show up to the battle field, as well as the population, would just fall to their knees and beg the clans to show them the way doesn't have any effect on WHY the entire invasion happened? They damn well know the IS had more people on a single world then the some clans had total. They just thought they were that superior. It may well have been the intel gatherers were sending back false information sounding like the IS was using garbage cans and home sales signs to patch up holes in their units armor. Have you ever played a game where both sides didn't have a skill better then 7? It is a major joke, but not funny trying it. You are extremely lucky if you can get a to hit under 9.
The only ones that rule are the last ones standing. Letting others kill themselves clearing out the way, for you to come in and take the goal is the ultimate victory. Once you are in control, you write history suggesting that you fought against the odds to take control. Who is going to say that isn't right? The dead? The dead don't speak.
Given up on the fact that the DC was more ruthless in killing innocent people that the clans are? That they go out of their way to do so, yet their way of doing things isn't as bad as the clans? Or did you give up, because there is no support for saying the clans are worse then the DC? The Clans would become the DCMS after a little more time. Leaders would put their personal hatreds and issues into running things. Not how it needs to be, but how the leader wants it to be.
And still the major factor of the clans having Comstar deal with keeping the populace under control doesn't come into the picture. The concepts of the clans was watered down to allow the IS people to understand a little more of what was going on. That is not saying everyone would accept it, but it would placate a majority to just waiting and seeing.
Where did you get the information that only a dozen pirate groups had jumpships? With the clan invasion, more mercs went rogue and became pirates then be forced to face the certain death of fighting the clans. Oh yeah. You don't seem to read the actual wording and content of the stories. Just add in what you want to suggest only your vision is right. There are more then a few stories of even house troops taking their equipment and becoming pirates. But that would mean you would have had to read more.
Again, not reading the entire sentence as one sentence. The idea of stripping those worlds of troops would cause a dramatic influx of pirates.
As the pirates hit several worlds, sometimes in a row, the amount of pirates that have jumpships is larger then you think. And the statement says if you strip the world of forces, there would be an influx. Get your comprehension working right.
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Requiem
09/09/20 06:50 AM
1.158.133.26
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Still not understanding what I am getting at?
Sophistry – not all games go down the path to where planet killers pop up – it depends upon the games developers to determine which path they will take to greater profitability.
And if the did – how long did the planet killer last in the game – for example Star Wars, that really didn’t last in any of its incarnations …..
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Back to square one I see.
The alt does fix the issue of the Clans as warships are used to take out other warships in a Mother Loving Navy War!
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And putting in something to prevent the end from happening one way is not fixing it. It is just changing the beginning to prevent the original ending.
i.e. an Alternate Universe Narrative where the start may be similar but the end is going to be very far away from anything as seen before – and why? Again in my opinion – the Canon story is boring and lacks and any credibility to the characters and the Houses for which they fight!
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And yet again, the lie of saying canon is wrong because the alt says so, isn't going to get a free pass like it did anymore.
How many times have I recently put in the quote “IN MY OPINION?” - so stating an opinion is not a crime it is an expression of freedom of thought
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And the Falcon Guards rebuilt from what? Dezgra warriors and freeborn? But you said that wouldn't happen as the clans were so hide bound. Hmmm.. Sounds like what would have happened with needing any reinforcements.
Sophistry and comprehension?
Falcon Guards – Destroyed on Twycross – command given to Star Colonel Aiden Pryde – after 20 months – that means three to four round trips from the Clan Home worlds he was finally able to re-build the unit to fight once more on Tukayyid.
Thus taking a unit from the remaining 3 to 4 Mechs to a full complement of 75 Mechs and 100 Elementals required 20 Months.
So why didn’t we see this level of replacement personnel rate throughout the entire Clan Invasion? A simple excess sheet should have been enough to do the job.
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For the clans, population and society didn't matter.
Belief and the actuality of the matter are two different things – what happens when a world of 5 Billion begins waging a war against any garrison they leave behind? If they go down the hard route and begin killing of whole towns etc – how long will it take before this turns into a First Succession War Scenario?
You need to think through what the Clans will do based upon their History and their Society Norms – then you have to translate this into the norms of the Inner Sphere Houses and visa versa - cross cultural divide and the misconceptions between the two societies will become more dangerous than that of any weapon system / unit within the game!
i.e. the two societies militaries are just too alien for each other for them to form a common frame of reference within the initial invasion.
Sooner or later one side or the other is going to do something and all hell is going to break loose …..
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They damn well know the IS had more people on a single world then the some clans had total. They just thought they were that superior.
Problem is what happens when what they hypothesize turns out to be a complete bs!
What happens when they do conquer a world with a population of 5 Billion – they know they cannot affect the population so what do they do – remain penned up in their garrison whist the surrounding civilians pick them off with sniper rifles and IEDs.
So unless you are going to assign a major part of your military to garrison duty of a single world was it really worth conquering as it has now become a pyrrhic victory and mill stone around your Clan’s nech to achieving the true goal of Terra and the il-Clan.
So again why attack a world that will become way too difficult to hold and will restrict further military activity by diminishing your sent number (The bid number) of available forces? Didn’t anyone really think this trough?
What are your Clan militaries priorities?
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The only ones that rule are the last ones standing. Letting others kill themselves clearing out the way, for you to come in and take the goal is the ultimate victory.
The ultimate victory is by taking the objective and no one on either side dies !
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The dead don't speak.
Yes they do – you just have to know how to listen.
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Given up on the fact that the DC was more ruthless in killing innocent people that the clans are?
Give up on the fact that what they were writing about was beyond bad!
As for killing the innocent - didn’t see this during the Clan Invasion. And you will not see in my Alt. Universe setting.
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And still the major factor of the clans having Comstar deal with keeping the populace under control doesn't come into the picture.
And how has any Vichy Government worked in the Past when the Gestapo are running the insane asylum.
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Where did you get the information that only a dozen pirate groups had jumpships?
Have a look at Field Manual : Periphery
As for Mercs going rogue – the Mercenary handbook only had one
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There are more then a few stories of even house troops taking their equipment and becoming pirates. But that would mean you would have had to read more.
Really? …. Try again
Facts not supposition!
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There are more then a few stories of even house troops taking their equipment and becoming pirates. But that would mean you would have had to read more.
Did you even bother to read the above deployment into the Clan OZ – there are more than enough forces remaining behind to ensure that anyone who gets adventurous will be sorry!
And did you forget that these worlds also have reserve forces – so any pirate force will have to contend with them at the minimum – and did you forget that many of these units would have a serious amount of conventional fighters and bombers - so again any pirate force is in for a world of hurt on most worlds within the IS.
So as you stated “Get your comprehension working right.”
Edited by Requiem (09/09/20 06:55 AM)
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ghostrider
09/09/20 12:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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So basically one out of three movies was about destroying a planet killing Deathstar set up. And considering the time frame for the movie series as less then 30 years from 1 to 6, what does that tell you?
The IS having warships does not fix the issue. First, logic fails if they are not used against other houses. Second off, this would also be true about things like the Skye Uprising, and yet there aren't orbital or ground batteries around specific worlds. This does not negate the issues of the clan warships, either. The clans would have learned about the warships from comstar, meaning they would have increased the numbers as well as had a few more clans involved in the fight. So again. The ripples of changing the past to avoid the future doesn't work out the way you would want it to. But in this case, it is all about the alt, so the only thing to really say is logic says they would be used on other houses to begin with.
There is very little of the start that is close to the original. You have taken the end information and changed it so to favor one side. Might as well stick with the SL not falling, as that would be the whole reason for the entire game. It removes the violence of the succession wars, removes the 4th and 3039 wars, as well as removes the clans. Then it would also remove WOB and everything else. Now go on your own alt and create an entirely new alt, as that is the only way this would be an alt using the entire IS.
The fact is the same statements are being made that said canon is wrong because the alt does something different, then starting to add in 'in my opinion' is just rehashing the statements, trying to rephrase it with the extra words.
You really don't pay attention to the entire story of the game, do you? The only time a clan unit was hurt that badly before the truce fight was... what do you know, during the pass fight. And it was written like that to allow another story arc in the main story line. So what does this say. The clan losses were not so severe that they needed to rebuild that many units in the others. And those losses were filled by others, or left open for a while. I did not see anywhere that the clans didn't keep units that were down a mech or so, out of the bidding wars. One more thing. How could you tell that the unit(s) you face are not mixed or even whole units?
And now for the rest of the logic. How much time was taken to have the leaders really decide to rebuild it and who would be the one to do so? They finally decided on Aidan, as he is the only person that would take the position because of the dezgra stain on the position. Then getting the Falcons to allow things like freeborns into the unit, as well as getting some of those that were disgraced to join, such as Joanna. Then the mechs themselves. As it was bottom of the line priority, how many mechs went to replace front line units before they had enough to even begin to rebuild?
So one round trip would be what happened, and only for a very few like Joanna.
Again. You still don't understand the use of the clans belief was yet another way to nerf them, so they didn't just steamroller over the entire IS and take Terra. They had to have weaknesses, and with your saying they would have jumped at the chance to show they are better, why would they allow simple intel to stop them?
We are talking about removing potential threats to your taking the leadership. What do you think mercs are for? To die so you can take power. That has ALWAYS been the concept thru out history for them. Sending in a rival with his forces, to fight the enemy and allow you to take the victory is yet another concept thru out history to be used.
Many house troops took jumpships and headed out to become mercs. More then a few failed at that and became pirates and bandits, which are about the same thing, to survive and some prospered for a while. Now if the retconned yet another fact of the past, that is something I do not have control of.
I see where the issue of pirates said the FS/CC/FWL were getting hit by them. I don't see where it was stated that it was in the clan occupied zone. Better hack together a statement that says this.
All of those supposed 'forces' on the worlds were how big? You mean a simple company of tanks and some air craft to cover an entire world? And how well did this work in the past? Oh yeah. It gave the pirates access to parts to fix some of their equipment most of the time. Only when they ran into, or had reinforcements from the nation show up, did they have major issues.
Tortuga, I believe the world is called, is one problem for the FS. They were hit on occasion when they got to be a real issue for the FS, but the FS could not stop them for long.
The Tortuga Domains is an interesting read in the wiki.
Edited by ghostrider (09/09/20 12:38 PM)
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Requiem
09/09/20 07:02 PM
1.158.133.26
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The IS having warships does not fix the issue.
First, yes a Navy is there to defend / attack all aggressors;
Second, since when does a regional lord gain control over the Navy – throughout modern history the Navy is controlled by the Admiralty.;
Third, the new Ares Conventions are in force –
Article I – forbade the use of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons;
Article II – forbade orbital bombardments and moving within 175 kilometer proximity of colonized planet;
“This does not negate the issues of the clan warships, either” – So?, this is why everyone have warships in the first place!
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The clans would have learned about the warships from comstar, meaning they would have increased the numbers as well
Again that pesky nuisance of the Clan’s society and tradition rears its head within the Canon Game … the bid is set in stone and you can’t just break it without a massive loss of honor. So again – there will be no increased numbers unless the Clans break their own Honor Rules. As stated repeatedly - adding a few more Clans is once more against the Clans own rules as they were deemed UNWORTHY through the combat selection process and they have no choice but to remain at home!
So unless you want to completely revamp the Clans for a new Alt. Universe you are stuck with what you have.
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There is very little of the start that is close to the original. You have taken the end information and changed it so to favor one side.
Really?
This is where you actually allows the clans to conduct reconnaissance and not sit back and just accept 30 year old information from a unit that went dark and is presumed to be lost.
So, multiple reconnaissance missions – updated information – actually having an invasion plan – actually establishing a dedicated logistics route – actually establishing multiple small colonies on worlds to assist with logistics , medical, fleet repair, replacement sibko and support personnel etc, manufacturing facilities (especially armories for consumables) – everything that is needed for an invasion support fleet (as they did have 50 years to prepare ….)
And yes I did change all the “bids” into something actually resembling an invasion and not the hodge-podge as given …. Whilst at the same time I did completely re-write the Clans into something far more appealing …
This is the reason an Alt is established – to take what was given and create something entirely new from it – why? The old Canon narrative is boring and not only does it have more holes in it than a block of Swiss cheese it is just not believable when you consider the Character profiles of the IS House Lords and their Generals – their Military and fighting styles as well as their cultural norms ….. I just find the majority of the Canon narrative to be a waste of time ….
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'in my opinion'
Is just that ‘IN MY OPINION’ – just because someone disagrees does not make something it wrong it is not an admission of saying they were in error – it is a personal opinion – trying to make something out of nothing is verging on sophistry once more!
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You really don't pay attention to the entire story of the game, do you? The only time a clan unit was hurt that badly before the truce fight was... what do you know, during the pass fight.
Twycross
Rasalhague
Wolcott
Luthien
Tukayyid to name but a few
And then there is the issue of cumulative damage due to every battle – considering it takes 6 moths for any replacement personnel to arrive and at the same time these individuals are then dispersed in what manner - everyone who’s damaged gets a couple until they are all brought back to speed or is on an unit by unit basis and you just have to wait until your turn?
Again the Canon version of facts dismisses the entire concept of cumulative damage and a very slow and haphazard replacement personnel system of the sibko. Thus making the entire narrative into little more than a bad joke, especially if you count the damage of the IS and you don’t bother with the Clans – count the IS then you must also count the damage to the Clans at the same time – and yet where is this data?
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How could you tell that the unit(s) you face are not mixed or even whole units?
Go to any battle and look in the box entitled – Forces Involved – where does it say extract of this and that unit ….
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How much time was taken to have the leaders really decide to rebuild it and who would be the one to do so?
The Khan and even the sa-khan
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They finally decided on Aidan, as he is the only person that would take the position because of the dezgra stain on the position. Then getting the Falcons to allow things like freeborns into the unit, as well as getting some of those that were disgraced to join, such as Joanna.
First, Freeborn …. As there was only one.
Second, Joanna was already a member of the Falcon Guard (under her Sarna page it has her as the sole survivor from the Falcon Guards) …. So they would have had to kick her out not induct her into the unit …… RESEARCH FIRST
So again it took 20 months to re-create the unit …… which demonstrates the Clans inability to successfully rebuild heavily damaged units on the front line. – also if the unit was sent home they would have been replaced with another unit – thus making their return to the IS very unlikely, so Aiden would never have become the martyr he became when he was killed.
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why would they allow simple intel to stop them?
So you supposition is that the Clans went in blind to a battle and really did not care about intelligence packets regarding the world / units on the world they were going to invade next? Since when did reconnaissance strategic and tactical information become obsolete?
If so their downfall would have been rapid and with a loud thump at the end.
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They had to have weaknesses
Then include them in the game and not just do nothing!
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We are talking about removing potential threats to your taking the leadership.
Since when have pirate bands been a threat to a House Lord – except for the CC when they were cut down to half their size!
Mercenaries – consider Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries by A.E. Housman
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More then a few failed at that and became pirates and bandits
If they are so plentiful please name the units, that should not be too hard, should it?
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I don't see where it was stated that it was in the clan occupied zone.
Tortuga – what did Wolf’s Dragoons do to them in 3007? And by the way where is their TO&E circa 3050?
So there is Lady Death Trevaline’s Death’s Consorts …. Any others?
As for the Clan OZ – go to wiki – Invasion Corridor – Clan <Name> and then read the Periphery entries for each Clan.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
09/10/20 03:07 AM
173.247.25.195
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As for making my own game – that is exactly what I am doing ……
Problem is I have not posted the 80 pages so far regarding my alt history starting with the Star League and deviating completely from the fall of the Star League with completely new people throughout the entire IS - Richard Cameron and his generation are the last within my alt universe that have a place from within Canon – from there on it all changes ….. especially when Richard Cameron Marries the Pirate Princess from Tortuga …..
So not even close …. No exodus, no clans, no star league, only the Houses remain and even then they are vastly different than the game’s version …..
If it does not make sense it is the duty of the gamer to speak up and say this does not make sense. It is the duty of the game developer to take issue of the gamer and either provide a logical response or to fix it.
As potential gamer, I have pointed out that the known military sizes don't line up to the story you presented and that the Succession War, Clan Invasion, Civil War, Jihad, Dark Age, and IlClan era content is entirely erased in your relaunch, which would alienate many current fans and limbo the majority of the existing literature.
Isn't it now your duty to provide a logical response to these two problems? You have not even responded to the first problem, and for the second you've given mutually exclusive responses:
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It all comes down to the author and the quality of the story – as for getting it into bookshops this is via the publishing houses – how does any book get published and sold in book stores? Make a good product and they will sell and buy it …..
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Don’t you need this type of information just in case it is necessary for your players to go down this track?
If Battletech has missing detail in the thousands of pages of already published material, how big must your revised history version be to provide a completely airtight, full detailed backstory that unquestionably answers any detail a gamer may potentially have? Ten-thousand pages? A hundred-thousand? Who is going to publish something of that magnitude, let alone buy it?
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Consider modern ….
Politics;
Military Strategies;
Economics – comparative advantages as well as geopolitics;
Sociology;
Psychology and psy-ops;
Logistics and modern chain theory;
Mass manufacturing and engineering and the concept of re-engineering and value adding;
Historical imperatives that have shaped modern thought; etc.
The application of many of the underpinning theorems within the Battletech universe indicates a vast disparity as to what is written currently and what could be considers to be a late ‘1800’s Boys own adventure book.’
I'd like to point out that a lot of these could change radically in 750 years. Much of the defense being made is on how humanity interprets these things today. If we were to ask someone from the late 13th century, their views on these things would unquestionably be as different to us as perhaps ours would be to those of the late Star League. So just because things that make sense to us in the early 21st century, like total war and air superiority for military strategies, the Star League could have entirely different views (and in canon, they do, with far less emphasis on air superiority), just as our late Middle Ages solider would have. He'd probably think 'air superiority' had something to do with the flight of arrows shot from long bows. So falling back to the excuse that "it doesn't make sense" may not be appropriate. A lot of it doesn't make sense to us, but the canon describes how a lot of it is intended to makes sense to someone living in that future era. We find feudalism and social castes to be abhorrent, but in Battletech lore these are long-established norms and people are simply used to them simply being "the way things are." One of the fascinating things about Battletech is that its future society is so radically different than ours on a sociological level. Trying to rewrite it to be more 21st century in mindset may lose some of that intrigue.
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Still no idea where these quoted military sizes for Clan invasion are coming from. Objective Raids gives sizes for 3054, so we can use that as an estimate for mech strength following the Clan invasion and the Inner Sphere regrouping to counter them earlier than they did in Bulldog:
* AFFC would have about 186 mech regiments, not all of which are organized in RCTs. Even assuming they all were, 1/3 of this would be 62 RCTs, not 100-125. War footing production can't make up this difference in such a short time. And if the answer is what they absorbed from the former Capellan Confederation and St Ives Compact, 35 mech regiments together, and assuming all of them would be RCTs as well, that makes the 100-125 range half the AFFC military, not a third.
* DCMS is reduced to just 60 regiments, and much of their production capacity was lost. It takes 8 years and buying a lot of FWL product to build back up to 76 on the eve of Operation Bulldog. They just can't offer 70-80 regiments.
* FRR has only 4 mech regiments remaining, not 16. And no native military production or money to buy much (In 3062, they're still at 4 mech regiments and only 14 and half regiments when armor and infantry are added.)
* ComGuard has about 37 regiments of mechs (and 90 total combined arms) remaining after Tukayyid. If a Tukayyid doesn't happen, then they would be closer to 62 mech regiments (and 150 total combined arms.) So its unclear exactly how they're giving 50 regiments, and whether its counting mechs only or combined arms.
Giving you benefit of the doubt and going with the 276 you named, the Clans in total still muster (3060 numbers) 529 clusters. And this is after Refusal War and Bulldog (but includes an Abjured Nova Cat) so 3054 era they'd be pushing 600. The Clans were expecting one cluster for every two IS mech regiments plus their associated support and militia during invasion (and mostly widely successful with this expectation), so the IS Army needs to quadruple in size to stand a fair chance of totally conquering the Clans. You don't need just a First Army, but a Second, Third, and Fourth. What's left of the AFFC and FWLM isn't enough. Granted armor and infantry could make up a lot of it, but you've already accounted for the AFFC's RCTs and militiamen wouldn't be eager to leave their home planet to go fight the Clans.
Even if you restrict it to just the Invading Clans, remove a Warden Clan Wolf, and disregard Diamond Shark who didn't really interact much with the Spheroids, that's still around 250 clusters. That First Army's got to do about a one mech regiment to one cluster attrition rate just to take out the invading Clans and push them back to the original borders of the Inner Sphere, with little left to counter a second wave of fresh Clans.
The numbers just don't support an Inner Sphere going total war with all the Clans in the 3050s. It would take them decades to built up sufficient capacity to counter the Clan threat, and a united Clan opposition could utterly crush them before that happened. The IS was smart to only go after one Clan in Bulldog - it was an attainable goal. (And even still, they were losing more than one regiment for every Smoke Jaguar cluster destroyed.)
I should point out these numbers also pretty much prove the Clans could *conquer* all the worlds in the drive to Terra, even if it meant calling up more reserve Clans. And by conquer I mean destroying the defending force or forcing them offworld. *Pacifying* those conquered worlds is the ongoing complaint. That's a militia concern and one for which the Clans are not well equipped. You are correct there would be a lot of unrest on these worlds, but the Clans would've taken Terra nonetheless had Tukayyid and the Great Refusal not artificially stopped them. They had the means, men, and machinery to realistically conquer the whole Inner Sphere (and likely did circa 3000 which is why the Crusader sentiment had really picked up about that time) - they didn't really care about pacifying the populations of those worlds. Pacification is indeed a major problem with the canon fiction - but conquering is not.
Also, we've had the discussion about whether the Clans could replace their personnel losses for an invasion regardless of scope. With a labor caste in the hundreds of millions, almost entirely focused on providing whatever the Warrior caste needs, a scouting mission to determine the Inner Sphere's maximum available opposition and 49 years to prepare, the answer is yes. Not that it matters because the Clans weren't counting on a long war of attrition. Their numerical and technical superiority pretty much assured them a quick victory.
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Where did you get the information that only a dozen pirate groups had jumpships?
Have a look at Field Manual : Periphery
Why do pirates need to have their own jumpships? Your argument for few pirates is dependent on them having their own transportation, but there's no proof this is the case for all pirates. Pirates could just as easily buy passage as anyone else. A lot of jumpship operators, especially in or on the edge of the Periphery, probably aren't too picky because they don't have as much steady traffic as more interior worlds. And a pirate to an House nation may be hero to a Periphery nation or independent world, striking a blow for the little guy and bringing back valuable, needed goods they couldn't get otherwise. Some pirates aren't even pirates per se, but mercs hired to do a dirty job. Pirates, or at least pirate/raiding actions, and the need for militias and garrison forces are probably just as common as they've been described in canon (and video games.) I see absolutely no justification to say piracy is rare outside of the borders of the Bandit Kingdoms on the basis of whether they own their own jumpship or not. Per FM:Periphery, a dozen or so pirate groups do, but its apparent that many, many more can make do without their own. You have made a faulty assumption on this matter.
And just because only a handful are named doesn't mean there aren't others. We don't have a full list of every single merc lance or company operating either, but we know from multiple sources that there are many of them out there. If you're going to argue that there's only a few pirates because only a few are named, then you must also explain why the merc groups listed in the canon TO&Es or other sources must be the only ones that exist. Or that there aren't custom mechs and variants because they haven't been given an official TRO or record sheet, despite the rules specifically providing instructions on how to make custom mechs and canon fluff describing variants not listed in a TRO or record sheet set. Or that the stars on the map are the only ones that exist, despite scientific evidence otherwise. Its a terrible fallacy to assume that only those named are the only ones to exist unless there's some information that explicitly says so.
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ghostrider
09/10/20 04:02 AM
66.74.60.165
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So social generals are limited to ground forces? And local lords do control forces in their system, sometimes region of space. Feudal society going on down the line where there are military personnel that control the combat zones and such.
Do you really have no thoughts on the fact that the clans would have not bid on the invasion with the forces they did in canon? The inclusion of warships would have had the clans bidding higher for the invasion. Or did you forget that the invasion bids came AFTER the Outbound Light was captured?
Completely new? You have all the same characters doing the same things, only the outcome is different because of changing the past to prevent the future. Completely new would have nothing to do with canon, other then the game rules that are used to play with.
So by your admission, your stating canon is wrong is not acceptable?
just because someone disagrees does not make something it wrong
That statement destroys the entire premise of the alt thread. You say canon is wrong, but yet come up with this to defend bagging on the developers...
Why do you think the clans wait every 6 months before ordering more from the home worlds, or not have something waiting for them. The units are set in numbers, but that does not mean you can not have equipment stockpiled. Granted, the only ones that did this were the wovles, and they took off on pushing forward, leaving the others in the dust. Also, it is highly likely, the other clans had more then twice a year shipments coming in..
If I recall, Diana was in the unit as well. His freeborn daughter. And there were others. Horse just got the spotlight.
The Falcon Guards at that time, did not represent the Touman during the invasion. It could have been put together in a few weeks. The question that was PRINTED in the books was weither or not to let the Guards name die. But it was too steeped in history to let it go. That was not a quick decision. And who would lead and be in it, was not a quick decision. But for some reason, you think it was simply a snap decision.
As for Joanna, she was going to be removed from duty, period. Hence, she was originally not slated to be in the remade Guards. If not for Aidan stating he wanted her in it, she would not be.
Decide. Do the clans fight because they believe they are superior? Or do they sit around waiting for intel to let them get into a fight? They had intel to begin with, as it was provided by Comstar. There were a few times that this was inaccurate, and the clans still won most of them.
The weaknesses were in the game. Their way of combat with their arrogance, combined by the lack of sustainable reinforcements, as well as not being adept with moving supplies in a timely manor. For some reason, this seems to be ignored. So this shows not all information is being processed.
I will admit, I wasn't really thinking of a hired ship to transport pirates, but there are a few stories that have been about that.
Not sure if you have dealt with this or not, but there are lists of what units the clans brought into the IS for the invasion. Not sure if that is what you are asking about the numbers or not.
The discussion of the losses isn't about machines, but replacing the warriors that should have been hurt or died. This is the weak link in the clans armor. They only have so many currently active, and only so many can be made to fill them, but the length of time is the issue, as well as the average that do become warriors.
But then the clans do use normal infantry units to attack the enemy with. Something that seems to be over looked.
As for the garrison sizes, how much of it is really needed when the planet is being run thru comstar? Yes. There will always be someone rebelling against anything. But the whole world rising up at once? Only time that comes close to that is Turtle Bay.
The issue that seems to be a tough one, is the removal of the last name of people, and testing the children along clan ways. It seems that holding children hostage was a ploy the IS used against each other, so nothing has changed there. And the last name issue? Doesn't bother me a bit. It puts people on a more even footage, as you can not rely on an ancestors actions to suggest you are better then others today without doing anything but riding on the fame of that ancestor.
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Requiem
09/10/20 06:40 AM
1.158.133.26
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Isn't it now your duty to provide a logical response to these two problems? You have not even responded to the first problem, and for the second you've given mutually exclusive responses:
Wick – please be more specific as to what you want to know and I will think about a response.
If you want to know about Unit numbers – this is why Excel sheets were created.
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If Battletech has missing detail in the thousands of pages of already published material, how big must your revised history version be to provide a completely airtight, full detailed back story that unquestionably answers any detail a gamer may potentially have?
The 80+ pages are just a time line of major events (plus notes explain how some points / people will interact each other) – to completely flesh it out - it will take who knows how much time and effort.
This document will never be published it is strictly for me and mine to enjoy.
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I'd like to point out that a lot of these could change radically in 750 years.
In all reality they could change yearly if you wanted to …. It really does not take very much to affect any of these factors ….
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the Star League could have entirely different views
This is very true – the point is, however, if you make the people of the IS too alien from us now how many games would understand or even accept the changes? Sometimes keeping the game simple and easier to understand is a positive in my book for simple understanding of historical events.
The issue also stems from the weapon systems provided – tanks, artillery, infantry, long rifles etc etc – and at the same time you would need to change the tactics and strategies and aims of the military. Iif you want are more alien IS society then you will need to totally change all weapon systems eyc in order to accommodate for the change in societies values.
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We find feudalism and social castes to be abhorrent
Except if you were brought up on all the tales of Arthur – Robyn Hood – Lancelot – Ivanhoe and at the same time you enjoyed reading the history of Rome, the dark ages, the middle ages, the war of the roses etc
Then it is pretty much an extension of this ….
Problem is TPTB should have read some of these histories as they are far more unbelievable and riveting than that of the ones they published – that is if they had adopted some of them I believe more people would have read the books
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but in Battletech lore these are long-established norms and people are simply used to them simply being "the way things are."
Being hidebound to the Canon version is a personal choice – if you want to remain with canon then do so – if you are like me and find much of it boring and lacking energy then rewrite it to suit your values.
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One of the fascinating things about Battletech is that its future society is so radically different than ours on a sociological level.
When you look real close at it – ask this question again – it is not that radically different in many areas.
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Still no idea where these quoted military sizes for Clan invasion are coming from.
I know I dug the info out of one of the early Clan Books – can remember which one / or more ….
As for the IS have a look at the 20 year update which is 3050 – However I killed off the CC in 3039/40 so the FC should have have more than in this book, as well as St. Ives which is also larger as Hanse gifted them some worlds at the End of the Capellan Fall War.
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The numbers just don't support an Inner Sphere going total war with all the Clans in the 3050s.
FC alone has over 300 Mech Regiments – the majority of which are RCTs – so yes there are more than enough forces to go full on attrition warfare. Then there is also the issue of flipping the switch and turning the majority FC / DC economies over to war production as America did during WW2 – then at the same time both of these realms could institute the Draft.
So yes I can and will affirm that an attrition war is plausible ….
Then there is also the issue of weapons systems that will cause an immediate hurt on the clans – one such would be a high powered sniper rifle designed to penetrate a toads’ (elementals’) armor – or upgrading the range of a hellfire SRM to cook them …….
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It would take them decades to built up sufficient capacity to counter the Clan threat,
Actually no it wouldn’t – consider the time it takes to manufacture tanks and conventional aircraft and bombers as well as the munitions – then have a look at WW2 / Vietnam records and guess what the clans are now in a world of hurt!
Then go back and look at the time given by Canon to manufacture Naval ships – then look at the number of shipyards available – then factor in the two to four hidden shipyards the IS forces have manufactured since 3040ish and guess what the Clan need a bigger navy than that which they brought with them – and at the same time they had better have some aerospace fighter carriers with them as the flagships as the IS ones will be incredibly dangerous as I decided to allow a smaller Enterprise (Warship Class) into the game (Bay 1 and 3: 324 Fighters each bay – total 648 fighters).
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a united Clan opposition could utterly crush them before that happened.
Problem is as stated many times – the Clans societies rules do not allow for this – it is just the Smoke Jaguars all over again but on a much larger scale.
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I should point out these numbers also pretty much prove the Clans could *conquer* all the worlds in the drive to Terra, even if it meant calling up more reserve Clans.
The only way they make it to Terra is by 1. Giving up worlds and assigning thesir forces to the front lines or 2. Calling up more forces and at the same time giving up their honor and saying to every other Clan I am not strong enough to do this on my own! How ell will this go do down? And in all likelihood if a Can is damaged (50% damage plus) how many of the new Clans would issue a Trial of Absorption upon the damaged Clan? My bet the majority of them would – as when you are seen as weak you are also vulnerable – and the vulnerable will be conquered by the strong!
So yes do call up additional forces as in all reality they will just absorb all of the failures to begin with ….
The only way you can have all the Clan forces is if all were allowed to participate from the start ….. but if you did that I would immediately shift the war to 1st Succession War Tactics and begin by Nuking every Clan force spotted right from the start …
So again if you want a more balanced developed game then come up with a reasonable amount on both sides …. If you ant total annihilation then allow one side to have overwhelming force and turn the game into a joke
This is a personal opinion as you will never be able to convince everyone that what you consider is viable - is viable,
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They had the means, men, and machinery to realistically conquer the whole Inner Sphere
Problem is they do not have a dedicated logistics system (tyranny of distance) as well as a dedicated replacement personnel system (The Sibko training system) and at the same time their intelligence units are a joke and their freeborn support personnel / PGCs are open for psy-ops teams to de-program them and get them onto the IS side – thus undercutting their complete military forces on the front line.
But what is worst of all is their Hubris – they just do not get it when it comes to Garrisoning worlds – they just do not understand the backlash of the Partisan forces.
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they didn't really care about pacifying the populations of those worlds.
Look how quick that will change when partisan forces start killing of garrisons en mass utilizing unconventional warfare methods.
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49 years to prepare
Yes I agree if the clans utilized their time to prepare the IS would have been in a far worse position than given – problem is the Clans didn’t and as such they should have been a long drawn out war of attrition where the Clans fall to the IS …
Then after that you can have the second Invasion and then the third war in the deep periphery and so on and so forth for a hundred years war - until one side or the other falls over .
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Their numerical and technical superiority pretty much assured them a quick victory.
Strongly disagree … when factoring in all the arms and the ways you can get at the Clans they are not as invincible as people believe …. Thay have many faults and cracks just waiting to be exploited to destroy them …..
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Why do pirates need to have their own jumpships?
Please explain this fact to others ….. if they do not have a Jumpship or access to one their ability to go raiding is limited to the world they are on!
As for pirates numbers – their number is immaterial – the only fact that makes them a problem is their access to transport …. Without this they are stuck on a single world …. With them they can go raiding and who knows what mischief ….
Naval Transport is the key to everything in the Battletech Universe – without it your forces have just become useless!
Ghostrider,
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So social generals are limited to ground forces? And local lords do control forces in their system, sometimes region of space.
Sophistry again? Chain of Command how does that work in any Navy?
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The inclusion of warships would have had the clans bidding higher for the invasion.
The problem is available information ….
When was the last time the Dragoons supplied the Clans with their last IS after action report …..
And when did the first IS Warship slip the dock yard?
And did the Clans send a second / third unit into the IS to obtain additional recon information, post Warship construction recommenced, or did they just rely on the last missive from the Dragoons?
Answer this and you get your answer on Clan warship numbers.
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Completely new? You have all the same characters doing the same things, only the outcome is different because of changing the past to prevent the future.
Did you read this through before your posted it?
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Granted, the only ones that did this were the wovles,
Then where are the wars of reaving where the other Clans make up the stockpiles by taking it from the Wolves?
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Also, it is highly likely, the other clans had more then twice a year shipments coming in..
What was each clans total naval complement + Crew? Did someone forget to put this in thus the games have to guess again? – knowing how many support ships were available you could make up you own scheldule per clan and run with that …..
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Diana was in the unit as well
Diana was a part of her father’s unit on Tukayyid. And his “freeborn” daughter got a Bloodname ….
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It could have been put together in a few weeks.
Then why was its next fight at Tukayyid – 20 months after its last fight …….
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But for some reason, you think it was simply a snap decision.
This is war, not a committee meeting – the decision would not have taken that long at all …. A list of candidate names and bios would have been prepared ans sent to the Khan for evaluation …. Once read a decision would be made and orders would be dispatched …. Couple of days at the maximum.
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Decide. Do the clans fight because they believe they are superior? Or do they sit around waiting for intel to let them get into a fight? They had intel to begin with, as it was provided by Comstar. There were a few times that this was inaccurate, and the clans still won most of them.
The clans will always fight …. The problem is what happens when ComStar has no choice but to side with the IS – their next move be – supply the Clans with a total complement of inaccurate information so how good are they going to be for the next wave?
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As for the garrison sizes, how much of it is really needed when the planet is being run thru comstar?
And what happens when ComStar is forced to join the IS forces …..
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But the whole world rising up at once? Only time that comes close to that is Turtle Bay
What happens when the clans want to take IS children away from their parents to work in the factories like they do back home? As stated before the Clans society is so alien that they just do not understand when they go too far …
The entire world will fight the Clans!
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It seems that holding children hostage was a ploy the IS used against each other
Please supply proof as to this statement !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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And the last name issue? Doesn't bother me a bit.
Really? Your name provides a link to your past through all the generations and all their achievements …. It also helps to identify your cultural roots …. Especially when you find out your country and people of origin.
To many of us it is source of unlimited pride …. We will never give it up no matter what!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/10/20 12:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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Chain of command works the same way in the navy as it does the army. And social generals get away with doing things initially, that even career admirals don't. The only big different is most generals prefer the ground based mechs.
So you are saying all the information the Outbound light had, was nothing? The fact that it was their appearance and information of the crew and onboard systems was the turning point of getting the invasion going? So ignoring the parts that gave reason to why things are done, seems to be a trend here.
As said before, which seems to be ignored, the clans did have other intel gathering units sent to the IS. The Dragoons was the big one. The clan grand council pretty much chose to ignore the information those units sent back. But this stops the argument in it's tracks, so has to be buried.
Gee. Maybe with the story saying the different supply lines as well as say the Wolves HIDING the supplies inside enemy lines and not announcing the fact they had it to the others, might explain why the other clans didn't take them. The prize in a batchall is pretty much at the site of the challenge and fight. But then, like more then a few, this information stops the this portion of the complaint.
Considering the merchant caste was supplying the clans with some of their jumpships, and had more then could be rented to do things such as move supplies and such, I would say that the touman was only what the clan had under their control. Anything else could well have been rented. None of those listed have anything to do with supply runs.
Considering Aidan was a failed warrior, the entire 'honor' of the Falcon trueborn turned on it's head with him. He won a bloodname himself. The fact that the Falcons went from being traditionalists to become religious about almost worshipping Aidan's deed, should be a major red flag for not keeping with the way the Falcons are written. As Diana had the skills, just being able to fight for one was enough to get her then name.
As much as you want to think the khans are ultimate powers for their clans, they do not push for things when others oppose it. But then reading the history of the clans and seeing how many times they changed their plans because of the warriors opinion differed from theirs would show this. And part of this comes in the form of the Sakhan.
As stated, it was not a snap decision. Also, I could use the 'because it was written that way' but that is a cheap way out. The idea of the stain on the Guards had them ready to scrap the entire unit. But in the end, they said the Guards were part of Falcon history, so would continue. Now having some of those very people being in the IS when they were ordered to report to the Guards would have some cause for why it took so long. I am sure more then a few that were assigned to them fought a trial of refusal. It is the way of the clans.
The only real next wave that the clans had before the fight was already given the information comstar had before the challenge. So intel was already given, and the clans would have to actually work for those after the truce battle. Which still didn't seem to slow them down much, as the Falcon run to Coventry, and the new red corsair shown.
You and your comprehensive reading should have no reason to ask this. The children have always been a way to keep the populace from rising up so much. The fact that spouses and family are done for specific people, to get them to keep the masses calmed, has been done since war started on Terra. This is a more specific version of that. And with the clan training, your own argument supports this.
And your response of losing your last name shows why it had to be done in the clans. That pride is what caused the civil war. It wasn't some soldiers that banded together to start it, but nationalists starting it with opposing nationalists. And that would always be there if the last name was kept. But then it still had some there as the bloodnames were there. So when you win one, you get your pride from that. But then again, only the iron womb born have this option.
Pleiades Cluster. This is the reason why you have to have a strong defensive force on your worlds. The impossible happened. The TC invaded the FS right after the civil war, and took several worlds, and when the FS finally struck back, it was thwarted by the Jihad. But in history, this system originally belonged to the TC.
And pirates hijack as well as hire jumpships to take them places. No questions asked, as to what the dropships hold. More then a few jumpship crews don't ask, as they have payments to make on their ship. Keeping a jumpship for some pirate groups means upkeep they can not even begin to do. And releasing the ship means keeping the merchants sending supplies thru the area without a major military escort. But the great general that knows all about tactics, should see this. It is necessary to know, in order to stop the attacks.
Edited by ghostrider (09/10/20 12:22 PM)
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Requiem
09/10/20 04:53 PM
1.158.133.26
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And social generals get away with doing things initially
Chain of Command is vastly different just by its very nature; the number of ships within the fleet.
It s very easy to spot and remove “social” Officers. So, only in very lax militaries!
If you want social generals in your game – fine – but for me I am only going to allow a professional military for all my Houses and Periphery States etc.
Otherwise the military with the most social generals is the Clans – gaining rank by having superb fighting skills in the cockpit is about as stupid as it comes – the pilot may be a killer within their Mech’ but as a leader of a unit in understanding the nuances of combat strategy they could be absolutely useless due to a lack of experience – as Napoleon said he may be a General but is he lucky? ….. does she/he have that “luck” in battle to get the job done? – as you have to remember the Clans view of war is primarily based upon the Circle of equals – the majority / if not all Clans warriors have no experience what-so-ever as to IS full world scale warfare – a point that has been conveniently forgotten ….. IS war is vastly different to that of the “game-play” war the Clans are used to.
Have they even been psychologically trained for the Horrors of an IS style war where human lives are counted as numbers …. A point the Clans have never shown except during Trials of Annihilation.
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So you are saying all the information the Outbound light had, was nothing?
The outbound light is a research vessel not a military vessel – ever considered that as such they will not have any military information whatsoever, the only other “information” would be personal films / entertainment series – films to watch on your break etc – and those on a research vessel are usually scientists / commercial transport crew not military ….
Even if the Crew did say the IS has warships how many within the Clans would just dismiss this information and not even bother to try to gain a comprehensive understanding? Again they are just too hedonistic as to their own superiority for their own good!
So how much credence is given to the information obtained?
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the clans did have other intel gathering units sent to the IS.
Really? And what did they do with that information? They bickered over everything ….. also remember what information they did obtain was limited in its scope …. They could not even understand that the Dragons were still in existence and had gone native – and as such they were a far more dangerous security issue than that of the outbound light … did no one even consider that their freeborn Dragoons could have told ComStar where to look for them? – and could it be the rise in IS technology was not due to the Helm core but due to the Dragoons themselves? The Rise of the FC (and by extension the increase in their military) was in direct response to the Dragoons informing the FC of their existence – preparing the Strongest for the day when the Clans would attack? ……
In any sensible military Intelligence operations the idea of a double-cross must be considered … and yet the Clans lack of understanding regarding military intelligence this was not even considered ….. pathetic!
The Clans really need to go back to school when it comes to what information is considered relevant as well as the sources of where / by who information is obtained …… 3rd Hand accounts by those in the periphery and no real direct reconnaissance information will only produce a distorted picture, not a full scale information requirement for a future invasion ….. again showing the limited nature of the Clans Military Intelligence operations …. Pathetic!
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Gee. Maybe with the story saying the different supply lines as well as say the Wolves HIDING the supplies inside enemy lines and not announcing the fact they had it to the others, might explain why the other clans didn't take them.
Gee. Maybe the idea that Clan Wolf was able to engage more worlds than that of any other Clan is a strong indicator that they have access to a vast inventory of supplies the other Clans do not have …. And if their “Watch” military intelligence were not such basket cases they would have been able to gain an accurate picture of what was going on.
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None of those listed have anything to do with supply runs.
Considering that each Clan is a Totalitarian society rules by the warrior elite – the idea that the merchant cast can act with impunity is laughable … the military say you are going to be used for supply runs to the IS and the merchants have no recourse but to agree …. And they are only rented when one Clan hires merchant ships from another Clan … which the Diamond Sharks would have completed happily …..
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As much as you want to think the khans are ultimate powers for their clans, they do not push for things when others oppose it.
You do know what a totalitarian government is and how it works? ….. as long as you could kill your rivals you , as the Khan, have total control ….
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the Guards
Still does not change the point that it took twenty months from one battle to the next for the Guards to be involved in ….. and considering that they are Clan Warriors who pride themselves on the number of battles they fight within a short period of time in order to be considered a Ri-Star and gain their Blood-name this is an eternity ….
So matter how you look at it their numbers were never able to be fully completed for the majority of the 20 months ….
Also if a trial of refusal is fought it could be done within a few days at most so it really shouldn’t be that much of a hindrance to the rebuilding of the Guards ……
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The only real next wave that the clans had before the fight was already given the information comstar had before the challenge. So intel was already given
And how did that intelligence work out on Wolcott when the Hohiro Kurita changed the name of the elite Genyosha?
Again all named units from this poit forward should have been renamed – rendering unit identification almost impossible for the Clans …. And yet what did we get but more of the same ridiculous battles …. It was evident form how the battle was fought that the Clans had an Achilles Heel – so can anyone explain rationally why all the future battles did not adopt a similar strategy and just blindly continued on with the same tactics that lost battles?
This just proves how badly written the invasion was (in my opinion!) – if they cannot identify the Genyosha from a green unit then there is something seriously wrong with their military intelligence. They could not even identify Hohiro Kurita ……. What does this say as to their competency ?
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The children have always been a way to keep the populace from rising up so much. The fact that spouses and family are done for specific people, to get them to keep the masses calmed, has been done since war started on Terra.
Again …. PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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And your response of losing your last name shows why it had to be done in the clans. That pride is what caused the civil war.
You do understand what a Heterogeneous Culture is?
You also understand that creating multiple Clans is still creating the same problem of them and us?
The idea of removing a persons last name is beyond abhorrent.
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So when you win one, you get your pride from that.
And everyone else in their society can just shut up and take it? …… Ow yes, this is just a wonderful society you champion! (satire if you don’t relies it)
If the former SLDF officers were not such cowered wimps this should never have occurred ….. Nicholas was and always will be on the same list as Amaris, Hitler and all the others as a despot of worst kind. (again in my opinion!)
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Pleiades Cluster.
Really? What happens when the FC are no longer distracted by other forces and decide to send a task force to retake these worlds how long is the TC going to last then?
Plus what set the TC off in the first place to start this little invasion – could it have been WoB forces goading them on, initiating an atrocity to rile them up and even giving them a warship ….. With-out this would the TC really be that foolish to invade the FC?
Also this was Jihad era – not Clan Invasion era …….
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And pirates hijack as well as hire jumpships to take them places.
Again …. How many jump-ships are even available to hijack and how do you even get close enough to one to take it over in the first place as the average pirate is not known for having all the gear / training an IS black ops team would have.
So again – pirates are limited by their transport so unless there has been a massive explosion of transport within the periphery the idea of pirates becoming a major nuisance to every House is again a pipe dream!
Then there is the issue as to the quality of their weapon systems …. Unless they have access to an unknown amount of spare parts and good techs the quality of their weapons have not been known to be that great!
As for ships that assist Pirates … these are called Smugglers … and if they become identified then their ship will be confiscated by the authorities so how many will be willing to assist pirates? Very few and they would have to be very down on their luck to even contemplate it as there is no guarantee the pirates will not just take over the ship to begin with and kill the crew!
as they do from time to time!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/10/20 10:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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Really? The promotion board has no idea that someone is a social general? The fact they have NO service record is a huge clue. The ENTIRE Lyran military had issues with social generals. One of them will definitely want to be in command of the best weapon on the field, the warship. This wasn't started about the alt. It was a statement of fact that warships can be used against the high commands say so, no matter how much you think they can't.
There is such a thing as act according to your training when out of fast contact with HQ.
Again, you show no thought on how things are done. Part of the training all the trueborns go thru is tactics training. Those that fail are washed out. So why don't you think about the entire system before trying to suggest something isn't done. As you said, a warrior that doesn't know tactics is a bit useless.
You think that the clans don't understand war? The only thing they would have issues with is the fact the IS DOES hide in cities and such. They dislike it, but will go in and rip down the entire city if necessary to remove the enemy warriors. And given most really don't care about their own civilians, what do you think they will do about the enemy's civilians? Wait. To even ask this question means thinking wasn't part of it.
Hmmm. Clan interrogation is second to none, as they use the materials they have to get what they want. And it would be foolish for any ship out in the deep periphery not to have some general information about military tactics. It may well be what saves the ship from being boarded or taken. OOOOOPS! So marines stationed on the ship would know what is going on. It is doubtful that news of such an achievement wouldn't be playing on your vids as you suggested they had. But yet again, this means the complaint is without a base.
Still mixing up information for your benefit, I see. The Dragoons only 'went native' when they refused the recall order. It is very possible they were still giving intel to the handlers in the IS. They just NEVER went back to the home worlds. But again. The facts remove the ability to suggest otherwise.
And your supposition that they had not done so, shows how little you really think about what happened in canon.
Wow. Contradiction of your own words now. The Dragoons informing Comstar or any IS entity, while saying the information was erased in order for the next leg of the journey.
Now another contradiction by you. Suggesting the clans didn't have intel operatives, yet had sent the Dragoons into the IS to spy, and Wolfnet was up and running before the Dragoons got into the IS, by suggesting clan Scorpion had given them the training. So figure out which version you want to push and stick with it.
Once the Wolves started pushing sooner and more aggressively, they would know something was up. Not sure how much of the supplies coming in were in secret or not, but by that time, it was too late. And this is why each invasion clan had depots in deferent systems on the way to the IS. TO prevent interclan raiding, that would have happened had they used the same route. Any more things you didn't think of? Well besides a majority of what happened in canon. Read the books for the words in there, not the hidden message saying Amaris is great.
Thinking the entire clans are one organization seems to be part of why you can't understand how they operate. The warriors can not just up and demand the merchants give the warriors their ships to use as they wanted to. The other clans would not allow such an action, as it threatens the entire touman of all the clans. The Jaguars don't want the Falcons to just demand ships to be used and lost. It means less ships the Jaguars can use if they need it. This is a major issue considering all the clans are one and the same.
And thinking the clans would kill someone for disagreeing with them is a bit on the dumb side of things. You need those warriors, and there are more then a few times, the warrior in question is better liked then the khan is. The khans only started the major concept of killing off political enemies after the invasion. There are some cases that this happened shortly after the clans were formed.
Look at the Falcon khans. They were at odds on how to proceed after the truce went into effect. Did they kill each other? No. It was Vlad. Someone completely outside of their power to stop. The one ordered for Talmus (spelling?) to be summoned to accept Vlad's bid. The only one that was assassinated during the general time period was Ulric during the Refusal war with the Falcons. Other then that, nothing.
It would take more then a few days, as they would still be looking for others, as each warrior fought their trial. And now another angle. What about those other units that had losses, and needed reinforcements? Oh yeah. They would have to wait until AFTER the Guards were put together. NOT! Logic fail... what is this, like 3 million or so?
What? You want to suggest that Comstar knew Theodore was changing names of units, and had moved them onworld even before hand? Wow. That is a major stretch. That is why you move units around. To prevent the enemy from knowing exactly what you have and where. Tactics training would teach you this.
You mean you can tell if a unit is elite while descending to engage them? Wow, your much better then anyone else. The only time you find out they are much better then suggested is in combat, and at that time, it was too late for the clans. So again. Trying to use the end information to change the beginning or middle of the time line. This isn't Doctor Who.
Read the actual history of even our history. Families have always been hostages to the enemy to keep regions calm. This is a big part of WHY you have the dukes family live in the kings lands. To prevent the duke from doing anything while you have them. You keep implicating you are an historian. And that you read everything about the game as well. Why don't you prove they didn't? Because this is the way feudal societies have worked from day one.
The pirates did what all pirates do. They raid worlds they think are weak. But this is something you don't seem to get, as you want to move all forces away from where they live and raid at. This very issue is what kept things like the massed invasion of the 4th war from happening. Not only other houses were threats, but pirates and even the leaders of the regions were. The FWL is a good example of this, but it is not the only ones that had this issue. Hanse knew Micheal was dealing with Liao to overthrow Hanse. Could he move against him? Oh yeah. That's right. You said Hanse had the power to order anyone death and not worry about what happens. This is yet another example of why you don't understand what happened, and you refuse to believe what is PRINTED.
Some of the jumpships are law abiding people. They get into a financial situation and take on someone paying them to move a dropship or two from point A to point B. No questions asked. As more then a few jumpships are independently owned, this happens more often then not. And give the fact that back water worlds tend to have to have things shipped in to keep them alive, the flow of jumpships would be pretty steady given what resources are available. But yet another example of not really knowing what is going on. Just supposition to try and rip on the canon version, and suggest the alt isn't full of the same logic issues.
The alt can do what it wants, but the arrogant suggestions it is the only viable way things can be done, as well as suggesting canon is wrong because your alt did things differently, or worse, saying it fixes the issues, when alls it does is stop the future, but putting end information at the beginning.
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Wick
09/11/20 01:26 AM
173.247.25.195
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For the third time,
1. The numbers you give for military sizes don't jive with established canon for what is available late Star League era, to the point that the RWR-DCMS-Shadow Army team would outnumber the SLDF-LCAF-AFFS team. As I pointed out, the SLDF alone outnumbers the RWR-DCMS-Shadows by a wide margin, without even needing help from the AFFS and LCAF, and have superior equipment to boot. To make matters worse, you've thrown out bogus numbers for Clan Invasion era as well (see below)
2. If history is rewritten such that the Star League never falls, then what happens to Succession War, Clan Invasion, Civil War, Jihad, Dark Age, and IlClan era material? Obsoleted? Since the vast majority of fans usually play one of these eras (Age of War and Star League being much smaller fanbases) you would alienate many players. Where is the buy-in for them to adapt to your new history?
Neither of these are addressed in your alt that you claim makes for a better product on store shelves and bookstores.
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FC alone has over 300 Mech Regiments – the majority of which are RCTs – so yes there are more than enough forces to go full on attrition warfare.
Where is your source for this nonsense? 20 Year Update page 19 specifically says mech strength is 268 regiments and 1 battalion in 3050. Objective Raids (closest post-Tukayyid source I'm aware of) page 13 specifically says mech strength in 3054 is 187 regiments and 1 battalion. (These numbers include mercenaries under their employ.)
And counting the RCTs in each book, in 3050 there are 80 RCTs, and in 3054 there are 59 left. So its complete BS to state that the majority if mech regiments form the core of an RCT. Not even a third of them do!
Now potentially they could field 300 regiments worth of mechs if you add up all the uncounted company or lance sized mercenary units and/or pull old mechs out of planetary militias, but these aren't typically counted. And if you did count them for AFFC, you'd have to count the reserves for the Clans too. They have a sizable reserve of material in their Brian Caches and its of better quality than IS militia or low-tier mercenary. So the comparison of strength problem doesn't get better with an expanded scope.
The only explanation I can think to explain seeing a 300+ number in Clan sourcebooks would be deception on the part of the Smoke Jaguars after the Outbound Light incident to make it sound like the FedCom is on the verge of conquering the whole Inner Sphere and restoring the Star League on their own: an argument that convinced most of the other Clans to vote in favor of invasion. But 300 isn't the actual number. And the majority being RCTs is just complete bunk.
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Yes I agree if the clans utilized their time to prepare the IS would have been in a far worse position than given – problem is the Clans didn’t and as such they should have been a long drawn out war of attrition where the Clans fall to the IS …
Why do you say they didn't? They kept their military buildup high since the 3000 compromise and practiced combating Inner Sphere tactics using the information returned by the Dragoons (especially amongst Goliath Scorpion.) Why then would they not have also prepared extra Iron Wombs, extra sibkin dens, and extra training machines to be ready for an invasion? Once the invasion was imminent, or had started, these units start getting used to capacity.
Maybe in the 3050s and 3060s they could run short on manpower, but by 3070s they should be pumping out as many cadets as they could possibly need.
The distance I agree with - that's a problem for replacing losses quickly because it takes months of transit time. But the volume should not pose an issue to any war going 20+ years in length.
And even if they hadn't prepared any extra Ironwombs in the 49 years they had, why couldn't they do their own rapid buildup to produce more in a year or two? You claim the IS would be building mechs at record numbers to support a total war initiative, but can't give the Clans the same credit? That has all the markings of favoritism to support your point of view.
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And as far as the IS building up war material to match the Clans, I have to burst your bubble. With the expectation that each front-line cluster is designed to oppose two IS mech regiments and its supporting armor and infantry (at the least; they actually did far better than this during the invasion), to eject the six main invading Clans and their roughly 180 clusters, you're committing 360 regiments, or 80% of the 450 total available in the Inner Sphere after Tukayyid.
If the end goal is to defeat all 550 or so clusters of the entire Clan TO&E, you'll need at least 1100 regiments.
So how long does it take to build 650 regiments? You can say whatever you want about WW2 and Vietnam, but in-universe canon material always takes precedence. In late Star League, the Houses, in a military buildup similar to what a total war of attrition would require without wasting material against each other too much, went from 259 mech regiments in 2750 to 502 in 2765, with many more factories at their disposal than they have in Clan Invasion era. So that's 16.2 regiments per year of growth in even the best of circumstances. If you're losing 55 a year, building 16.2 isn't helping stem the tide much. You'd have to start with such an overwhelming numerical superiority to weather a 38.8 regiment loss every year of the war. 650 regiments at this rate would take 40 years to produce but Truce of Tukayyid only gives 15 years. So even disregarding the fewer factories problem, in 15 years the IS would only build up another 243 regiments to bring their total just shy of 700. Assuming the Clans did not grow at all during this time, 550 Clan clusters is still sufficient to defeat 700 IS mech regiments and their supporting armor and infantry. The IS has only got 2/3 of what they need to win. Had Inner Sphere tech not closed the gap with Clan tech during the 15 year truce (and it only slightly did in canon) then this means the total 17-strong Clan force could conceivably claim total victory in just 18 years, given a 38.8 regiment per year loss for the Spheroids.
I don't consider 18 years to be a very long war of attrition. The Amaris Civil War and the first three Succession Wars were all longer. Certainly not long enough to start bringing birthrates into the equation. And again, that's an imaginary situation better than what the IS actually has to work with in the 3050s and 3060s. Even if the IS got their growth rate up to say, 10 regiments per year (a good sight better than the roughly 2-3 they'd been operating at), then Clan victory could occur in a mere 13 years. 650 regiments in 15 years is a ridiculous 43.3 regiments per year growth rate. The IS just can't flip a switch and go from 2-3 to 43+ overnight.
If you want to say it takes longer because the Clans would not present a united front, sure. But they were united enough for 2 years to completely wreck a fifth of the Inner Sphere's might. If seriously challenged, and I consider a threat to their way of life as serious, I see no reason why they couldn't do the same for a 13 year period. (The Inner Sphere isn't exactly known or presenting a united front either. 280 years of war followed by a Second Star League that didn't last a decade. Claiming the Inner Sphere could unite but the Clans couldn't seems to be showing more favoritism.)
And comparisons to Bulldog aren't valid. First, the IS isolated Smoke Jaguar; total war with the Clans as a whole is by definition not isolating them one by one. Second, the IS sent 59 regiments and 10 Wolf-in-Exile and Nova Cat clusters to eject 40 Smoke Jaguar clusters. On paper this is a pretty fair fight, equating to roughly 80 regiments per side, but the IS sent many of their best regiments, while the Smoke Jaguar force was comprised of a lot of PGCs. Sa I pointed out above, it seems possible for the IS to collectively eject all the invading Clans, as they did with one, but it wears out both the IS nations and the invading Clan toumans to the point of becoming easy pickings for the remaining 11 Clans. But for the IS to face the full force of all 17 Clans, with many of their best still in the Kerensky Cluster, that's a much taller order and one for which the numbers spell out a very grim scenario.
Truce of Tukayyid really needed to be in the 75 plus/minus 25 year range to give the IS a chance to completely remove the Clan threat. They'd need that long to build up militaries to numerical superiority to match the Clans and to reduce the technical deficit (which by 3067 they still hadn't done in canon.) And it still takes the Clans not preparing very well to counter such a buildup.
The numbers, as provided in canon, just don't support the IS conquering the entire Clans without both a very long ceasefire and logic holes to prevent the Clans from keeping up. I'm okay with a story that has the IS claiming total victory over the Clans, but not until the 32nd century and not without better explanations for Clan passivity.
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Why do pirates need to have their own jumpships?
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if they do not have a Jumpship or access to one their ability to go raiding is limited to the world they are on!
You didn't answer it. You just repeated your claim that they must have their own or they are stuck. Which isn't true. They can buy transport. They can hijack. They can use more legitimate, secondary forces (mercs) to do the work. They can masquerade as legitimate until they strike and potentially be out of system before authorities notice. Numerous methods for them to get the job done in a remote system. Are you saying NONE of these situations is possible?? Canon has already provided examples of some of these actions (particularly the hijack method.) And apparently there are indeed enough jumpships travelling the periphery to make it possible. It doesn't have to happen every day. Pirates could potentially wait months and maybe years for the right opportunity. To say it could never happen is tantamount to saying that no jumpship ever travels periphery systems, which is a ludicrous claim. We know jumpships travel the dark. We know there's interstellar commerce out there. These facts are established by the mere existence of populated systems out there. So if there are jumpships, there can be pirates who can prey upon them or leverage them to conduct more nefarious business in the next system.
Face it, ghostrider and I have got you dead to rights on this. Pirates exist and they are apparently numerous enough to cause problems, requiring garrisoning and preventing large scale collection of those defending forces. Even the video games agree with the books on this matter. In fact, every source seems to agree except you, but you haven't provided any evidence to explain why you think pirates so very rare that garrisoning is a waste of time. You've only made a supposition about jumpship ownership, operation, and frequency that's been disproved. I mean, come on, don't complain about others playing the 'because I said so' card when your doing it yourself.
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Requiem
09/11/20 05:28 AM
1.158.133.26
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The ENTIRE Lyran military had issues with social generals.
The optimal word is ‘had’ – what you are describing is an 1800’s version of the military when ranks could be purchased by the gentry – However by 3050 this particular Lyran trait has been removed and as such is no longer a consequence.
Thus the idea of social generals still being in existence is a fallacy. And as for a warship going rougue, you would need the majority of the Crew plus the master codes that only the CO and XO have.
Plus depending on the era / country you could also have a political officer and a spy on board who works for internal security force.
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Part of the training all the trueborns go thru is tactics training.
So …. How many West Point Cadets turned out to be useless officers during the Civil War, Indian War, WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam?
Just because you received the training does not mean you understand what to do when in the thick of it ….. as it not only comes down to understanding tactics, you need to be able to read the enemy and interpret their actions as well as understanding what yur people are doing and their level of competency on the battlefield all at the same time …. And no you cannot get this out of a book – only experience will give you this!
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You think that the clans don't understand war?
They understand their version of play war within a circle of equals very well – where dueling is the forte. However, when it comes to fighting in the IS with all the vehicles, infantry, conventional fighters / bombers, special forces infantry, SOE tactics, Artillery and all the dirty ways of fighting they are but babes to the slaughter … they are just not prepared psychologically ….
The only thing keeping them going is the advanced tech …. However once this evaporates they just will not have the tactical flexibility / experience of an IS General.
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And it would be foolish for any ship out in the deep periphery not to have some general information about military tactics.
No.
They are a civilian ship – they would have absolutely no information whatsoever as to the military – the closest being that years Solaris championship Matches on DVD ….
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Contradiction of your own words now.
First – You - “The Dragoons informing Comstar or any IS entity, while saying the information was erased in order for the next leg of the journey.” – Sarna / Wolf’s Dragoons – Fourth Employee …”The Dragoons informing Comstar or any IS entity, while saying the information was erased in order for the next leg of the journey” ….. i.e. The Dragoons DID have the complete exodus road coordinates as at 3019.
Second – You - “the clans didn't have intel operatives, yet had sent the Dragoons into the IS to spy.”– did you actually try to comprehend what was written as the statement was in regards to follow up information post Dragoons going dark – they only went as far as the Deep Periphery – had no knowledge as to the Dragoon’s current status! - The Clans never even bothered to consider the double cross scenario … which again shows how pathetic they are. (again in my opinion!)
Third – You – “Wolfnet was up and running before the Dragoons got into the IS, by suggesting clan Scorpion had given them the training.” – If you actually read the books you discover Wolfnet was formed by Nicholas to spy on the Wolverines …. Which, given how long they have been in existence just shows how mediocre they are.(again in my opinion)
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this is why each invasion clan had depots in deferent systems on the way to the IS. TO prevent inter clan raiding
And demonstrates at the same time that the Clans have no idea what they are doing …. Did no one study Machiavelli?
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The warriors can not just up and demand the merchants give the warriors their ships to use as they wanted to.
Sarna / Clans – “Each Clan is governed by a Clan Council …. and have nearly absolute authority over all internal matters”
And only day-to day civil administration is carried out by a muti-tiered bureaucracy ….. so again if the Warriors say Jump the Merchants say how high (with the only exception being the Diamond Sharks)
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And thinking the clans would kill someone for disagreeing with them is a bit on the dumb side of things.
And killing a political rival is exactly what a Mongol khan would do to keep the remainder of his warriors in line …. For this is just what Nicholas taught them to do!
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The khans only started the major concept of killing off political enemies after the invasion.
Nicholas’ brother
The Wolverines
Clan Mongoose etc etc
The Clans have been killing their political enemies since day 1 the Clans were formed …..
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Look at the Falcon khans. They were at odds on how to proceed after the truce went into effect. Did they kill each other?
No they didn’t do much, they only started the Falcon Wolf war in order to kill of the Wolves – their sworn political enemies …..
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What about those other units that had losses, and needed reinforcements? Oh yeah. They would have to wait until AFTER the Guards were put together. NOT! Logic fail
Problem with this argument is that replacements are sent out in order of their deaths …. Whereas the Khan would have say as to who goes where based upon the overall needs f the Clan as a whole and not the needs of one unit and thus making the re-establishment of Guards at the whim of the Khan, and guess what …. 20 months ….
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You want to suggest that Comstar knew Theodore was changing names of units, and had moved them onworld even before hand
Comprehension of what was written ……sophistry will get you no where …..
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Families have always been hostages to the enemy to keep regions calm.
So once more you could not prove a wild story by finding any proof within the Canon history.
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The pirates did what all pirates do.
Only if they have the transport …
First you say that I cannot send my military against the Clans due to a lack of Jumpships ….
Then you say the pirates can raid all they wand due to an excess of Jumpships
Can I ask which one you have decided to stick with?
Sophistry once more ….
Quote:
This very issue is what kept things like the massed invasion of the 4th war from happening.
Can you point at any war within the game that called off due to pirate activity?
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Some of the jumpships are law abiding people. They get into a financial situation and take on someone paying them to move a dropship or two from point A to point B. No questions asked.
Yes they are called drug mules …. Look how that usually works out!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
09/11/20 06:32 AM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
The numbers you give for military sizes don't jive with established canon for what is available late Star League era,
Did you have a look at all of sarna’s documents with regards to each Periphery Nation etc as well as their documents as to Amaris the war etc and tally up everything as supplied on an excel sheet?
And did you go through every SLDF unit – utilizing the rules as laid down the each type of SLDF unit and what they were composed of – and enter it all into an excel sheet then tally it up to provide you with a detained list as to the SLDF TO&E?
When you have done that come back and have a chat.
Quote:
Where is your source for this nonsense?
Start with the 20 year update
Then go through every Battle as laid down by the each battle
Then come back with an answer ….. do not believe everything that is written!
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Now potentially they could field 300 regiments worth of mechs if you…
As stated previously kill off the CC and take their facilities over and begin mass production for the FC forces ….
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you'd have to count the reserves for the Clans too.
What Brian Caches?
Quote:
the Outbound Light incident
However the problem is that the Outbound light is a civilian ship and it would not have any military information contained in its data-banks – and do you know the amout of amy units your country has? So it is doubtful these scientific explorers would have any knowledge as to the specifics of any of the Houses military except in general knowledge.
Trying to make a mound out of a mole hill?
Quote:
Why do you say they didn't?
Where is the evidence to suggest they did? – eg HPG was not set up until the second il-Khan dies to allow for a video vote …. They clearly did not have it set up …..
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but by 3070s they should be pumping out as many cadets as they could possibly need.
No it is still a set amount … and it is still dictated by the results of a trial of position … so again their might be an increase but no one knows what it is as TPTB never decided to include the information into the game ….
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But the volume should not pose an issue to any war going 20+ years in length.
This again shows how crappy the story is (again in my opinion)
This is dependent upon number of Jumpships / their Class – the number of Dropships / their Class – and the production capabilities of the Facilities within the Clan Home Worlds …. When someone decided to provide us with that information I will be happy, but as once more no one provided the information we are all back playing guess what should have happed game!
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why couldn't they do their own rapid buildup to produce more in a year or two?
Problem is it still takes 18-20 years to complete the Sibko training depending on Clan …. So no matter how you look at it you still have a massive lag time between order and delivery ….
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You claim the IS would be building mechs at record numbers to support a total war initiative, but can't give the Clans the same credit?
Yes the cans can build at a record number – problem is if the IS can kill off the Clans Pilots faster than their sibkos can graduate them the Clans are going to find themselves with a stockpile of mechs with no one to pilot them!
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If the end goal is to defeat all 550 or so clusters of the entire Clan TO&E, you'll need at least 1100 regiments.
Problem is the IS should be able to reverse engineer most of the Clans weapony / undermine their freeborn support base with psy-ops / kill of who knows how many warriors with partisan sniper attacks and IEDs / destroy a good proportion of their logistics with wolf packs / build who knows how many aerospace fighter carriers etc etc and by then the requirement of 1100 regiments required gets reduced to who knows how many ….
Why …. Because fighting face to face all the time is a ridiculous concept when you can just undermine their ability to fight!
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but in-universe canon material always takes precedence.
The problem here is the production numbers are way out of date … we only have figures for prior to 3025 which does not include the memory core increase or the renaissance of military production as seen by the number of new models being produced during the Clan Invasion War ……
So again because there are no definitive figures provided all gamers can just make it up as they want ….
Problem is the statistics you are using are the same ones the USA were using in Vietnam …. How did that work out?
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The IS just can't flip a switch and go from 2-3 to 43+ overnight.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but yes they can …..
First – Conscription
Second – have you considered where all those worlds who have large populations get their vehicles from? – they cant be imported as there is no jumpship fleet that massive to supply their vehicles – thus they must be home grown – same goes for all the conventional fighters and infantry support weapons – I flick the switch and how loog does boot and specialist training last for infantry? And how long will it take to retool a vehicle production plant into a military vehicle production plant?
And just remember the Mech is not the be all as to weapons – Cassie has proven that how many times when killing them?
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the Smoke Jaguar force was comprised of a lot of PGCs.
Which is a miss noma as the jags didn’t have very many to begin with – and then when you look at the duties of a PGC within the Clan Home Worlds they are far from being anything spectacular …. However the real problem comes when you use psy-ops on then and get them to switch sides ….
Just remember the Cannon game is not the definitive word ……
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Truce of Tukayyid really needed to be in the 75 plus/minus 25 year range to give the IS a chance to completely remove the Clan threat.
No highly doubtful as by then reverse engineering should be complete and by the end of the 15 years they should be on an equal footing ….
But I totally scrapped this for my game as I find it a completely un-plausible setting …..
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[Face it, ghostrider and I have got you dead to rights on this. Pirates exist and they are apparently numerous enough to cause problems
Sorry No, unless they have the transport they are going no where – they cant buy it as they don’t have the money or the credit at the local bank (as if they did have the money they would just retire to the good life)– the training and materials required to hijack a ship is implausible – and contracting out your work to mercenaries as your proxy to commit a crime would mean that the merc are already pirates in their own right so why would they cut you in on the profits to start off with.
Then there is the issue as to the number of pirates …. Where did you get your inflated figures as the amount of pirates within the IS at any point in time?
The pirate may sound all great and wonderful but in reality it is not – so again where did you get the Jump-ship from in order to go raiding when they are supposed t o be rare? And this time try and come up with a plausible story ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/11/20 01:52 PM
66.74.60.165
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First incorrect answer. The social generals had been severely reduced, but not eliminated. And for some, they just got some 'training' in garrison units, to cover some of the shallow searches to make sure of this.
In the money grubbing LC, money will always give the rich the ability to become a general.
Are you suggesting that someone that shows they can't handle tactics would be put into the field in the clans? This isn't the LC and their social generals. This is the militarized clans. You don't understand tactics, you get flushed out of the training. The west point cadets don't become officers if they show they can't do the job. So far, social generals are not many in the U.S military, but it does seem to be coming.
Do you have any idea of the clan warrior? They don't worry much about surviving a battle, so much as making sure their genes are passed on. They are mainly suicide warriors. What psycological preparations are needed with that? They don't fear death. The entire basis for this is fictional if you think they are not prepared to die.
When has Comstar had a civilian ship out exploring the Deep Periphery looking for the old SL forces? The statement just screams of a complete logic hole. The Comstar Magellan class ship is armed with dedicated weapons, not something slapped on. It was meant to put up a fight if it runs into anything. This is not a civilian ship.
And to even suggest it did not have information about the state of the IS when it left the last communications range, is like saying the clans just wanted to sit down and drink tea with the IS leaders.
Now the statement of the Dragoons having a complete road map is counter to your previous statement of NO one having it. It was suggested a while back that the Dragoons would have it and should not have needed Trent to get it. But you said the Dragoons. along with the entire clans, would not have a complete map. Maybe writing down what you say, or even remembering what you said in the past is needed. Statements like this contradict your own complaints by complaining against things you said in the past. Logic holes or just trying to get some trolling action?
Leave the morons of the past out of this, as little deals with the clans at all. The clans KNEW they would be raiding each other for supplies if they had known where the others had depots. What is so hard to understand about this? That is why they did NOT run their supplies in bulk thru the same systems to get to the IS. This is stated in print. No need for special comprehension skills. But it seems this as well as other things, seems to go right by you. It does explain why you don't understand things in the game.
The clan council is not an individual clan. And the clan council will NOT just let even the entire invasion force just take all the ships beyond what each clan normally has, just for the say so. They have to hire those ships, as stated in the books. Those left at home, would not just give free resources to rival clans to cover the things they didn't foresee before their bid. They want them to fail, for multiple reasons. Sounds like history repeating itself. And as shown, the clans are not completely above sabotaguing the others. It doesn't happen often, but still shows up on occasion.
There are some cases that this happened shortly after the clans were formed.
So this statement right behind the one that says The khans only started the major concept of killing off political enemies after the invasion. means nothing, as you did not read it, or maybe the comprehension of it wasn't done, as you were adding in things that aren't there. So learn to read the entire paragraph before responding to things. Jumping the gun is only hurting your case.
No they didn’t do much, they only started the Falcon Wolf war in order to kill of the Wolves – their sworn political enemies …..
Now I know you are just trying to get an argument going. The Falcons started the war with the Wolves? What story have you been reading? The only way that could be concieved is that the Falcons were part of the movement to get the crusaders in the Wolves to rise up against Ulric. And they were not the only ones to do so.
This also does not answer the fact that both Khans were at odds on what to do once the truce was in effect.
Let's see. Camancho Cabalaros has a point where the Black Dragons had family members on live tv being executed to bring them to heel, as well as so many other stories having the 'heroes' having to save their family or the local lords form the enemy clutches to prevent them from being forced to help the enemy. But again, that means reading what is written. The Galtor campaign states in there, that the DC had a tendency to move populations deeper into the DC on captured worlds to keep them in line. But since you can't be bothered to actually remember what is printed, otherwise, you might have an idea of what is really there. Not pulling 'facts' out of the air, or seeing things that aren't there.
Where was it said the pirates can raid all the want?
Pirates have to be very picky on what they hit, as they can not afford the losses of house units. If they raided as they wanted to, Defiance would be owned by pirate gangs.
There is jumpships used in commercial ventures as well as supply runs. Something that is standard in the game. Seizing those jumpships from the commercial ventures is how they temporarily gain more, such as the 4th war. Doing so nearly destroyed the FS economy. Something that doesn't seem to register in anything you type. Just as the fact you can NOT have all forces in one location. Using those jumpships and losing them is far worse then using just military ships to move troops. Once gone, the areas they were running lose supplies until, or if, it can be replaced. But again. This is a military game, so economics don't have anything to do with it.
The concept of the Piranha effect is something you don't understand, do you? The ability to mass forces to invade one area, means pulling forces from another, which opens that up to be attacked by others. Small raids can devastate areas when there is no one guarding them. Simple tactics, yet seems to be one you don't have understanding of. When the main forces get back is a term you have used before. Now what happened when the main forces don't come back? Or worse, their entire supplies and bases are destroyed, and they have no where to recuperate or base off of in order to strike back? Oh yeah. That never happens. What am I thinking?
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ghostrider
09/11/20 02:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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Of course the numbers don't say if every unit was filled out, nor if there were extra units involved in each. They the fact that you can have an RCT sized unit in a system, but only have a company being the largest size as they cover all the assets in one. And then the fact that anything other then completely full units would screw up the concept that things were not the horrible ways that need to be perceived for the argument to be real.
Do not believe everything that is written. This sounds like the looking glass needs fake information to be even close to the way someone is describing it. But then comprehensive reading has come up with facts that just aren't true, so ignore the man behind the curtain, as said in the Wizard of Oz.
Again. The alt uses the end result to change everything so that the FS does not get hurt in the invasion. Changing things so the future could not happen, then suggest canon is wrong because it was done like this in the alt is the only end result that could happen.
I still haven't seen anything about who wins the next big war. Oh yeah. That hasn't been printed yet, so you can change the here and now to stop the results.
I like that. Make a mound out of a mole hill. That is the entire complaint that the alt has come about for. Oversizing some of the issues while ignoring the reasons why it happens. Yet it is the only viable way things could happen. See the re accuring theme here yet?
Supposition as to suggest they put it up just for the vote, and that it was not in the process as they were invading? Or that they did not use it until the vote? Each jump system had an HPG in it. But the only time it was used was the vote. See the issue. Not written, so not done, yet things that weren't done and not written were done in the supposition.
So the answer to TPTB of not adding in the full story of how the clans would increase their warrior base, has lead to something he could not say isn't possible, but now has to say that it needs to be in stone. Yet that would remove the GMs ability to do much with it.
Given the fact that the clans that were exiled from the home worlds, would also mean they would not have access to their DNA vaults, and more importantly, not being able to take the Ironwombs, but have to build the entire assembly line elsewhere, would suggest they could not keep with the sibko way of doing things. The Wolves that went into the ARDC had resources they could use to rebuild with. The clan becoming tribes would have to take what was available. So there would be several years of no sibkos being done. 20 or so years of no trueborn reinforcements.
But yet Marthe took the cadets and changed the way they could gain reinforcemnts. Took them on a trip thru the LA and allowed those that scored kills to remain warriors. Hmmm. One of the most traditional clans changed the entire sibko process and determining warriors.
And yet, the idea of changing their ways is not possible. They would not use freeborns or even bring back failed warriors to fill in positions, nor would they start using the warships to wipe out the IS dropships and jumpships before they can reach planetfall. And with the clans needing about half the forces to defeat the IS, this means they need even less, as the clans had access to naval weapons, and could well have stations built dedicated to removing the IS before they could deploy all those troops as well as remove the ability to bring in more. But this stops the fantasy of the perfect story.
Yeah. It isn't like a scout jumpship can bring a mammoth full of cars to a single word is possible. And it isn't like a mech is more sophisticated then a simple car then having to rebuild the factories, ABOVE GROUND, would be needed, and more supplies brought in to deal with the higher requirements of building a mech. The odd thing is, the older books suggested the reason more mechs weren't done was the lack of fusion engines. And in the Grey Death Legion books it suggested a lack of radioactive materials to build them was the cause. With this in mind, the concept of the fusion shielding was needed like the cockpit shielding to prevent the pilot from being irradiated from a leaking engine causes issues when they had to change that.
The idea that businesses have multiple dummy corps to allow them to do illegal things and not get caught hasn't been taught yet. The same thing that is done by terrorist organizations to gain access to things that are not just banned from them, but everyone, including stinger missiles and such.
And the concept of pirate being less then a full regiment hasn't sunk into the scenario yet. Pirates of a lance size have been known to cause more issues then not. The fact that there are a lot of them, but don't gain the notariaty of the enemy house raids is why they 'don't exist'. Much like the pirates near Ethiopia or around the southeast asia. There is no such thing as pirates in our day and age. What a bunch of crap...
Also, the term pirate means an unidentified unit raiding places. The fact that nobles have used this to hit each other, and get away with it, only means they will get bolder when the known garrisons leave.
And we all know that jumpship captains will never do anything illegal in order to get money for keeping their ships. The pirates couldn't possible have money for hiring them, as they don't have mechs and tanks that can be sold on the black market for said funds. Which part of the black market is run by the very pirates that don't exist. No reason to keep a stock of 100 PPCs if none of your units use one. But this is too out there to even contemplate.
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Requiem
09/11/20 07:41 PM
1.158.133.26
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Quote:
First incorrect answer. The social generals had been severely reduced, but not eliminated.
The Fact Remains – this is based upon your opinion of the Canon Game.
If you want them in your game fine – but just remember to put them in all the Houses, Periphery States and the Clans – as this is an all or nothing scenario. As status is due to more than money – contacts and political alliances must also be considered.
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Are you suggesting that someone that shows they can't handle tactics would be put into the field in the clans?
Providing the correct answers in the classroom / field trips is one thing – however when you have been in battle and you’ve been fighting for an extended period of time will this person still be able to provide the correct answer?
This is where the IS has the edge over the Clans – The Clans tactics are built around the quick strike and little more – the Inner sphere is bilt upon the premise of the long battle / built around the paradigm of long experience ……
Remember if at your Trial of Position you kill all 5 you get what position? ….. ie. your rank is dependent upon how good you are at killing in the cockpit of your Mech – it has absolutely nothing to do with how good / bad you are whist in the field.
With youth – an exuberance for the fight – remember the Clans are a youth centric organization when you are over 30 something you should be packed off to a solhama unit as you have past your use by date!
With age – comes wisdom of a hundred battles ……
Which shows that the Clans view of youth has a severe flaw in it – Experience counts for a lot on the Battlefield – something the clans have conveniently forgotten – as well as TPTB when writing the Clans ….
This is also where the game fell over with regards to Natasha Kerensky – she was just too old to have been a viable Clan Warrior once more – there is no way her reaction speed could keep up with a 20 something …..
Writing characters into a game just because you have a fondness for them is really sad – when for all intense and purposes she should have retired years before.
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Do you have any idea of the clan warrior? They don't worry much about surviving a battle
Suggest you conduct research regarding the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend and other units derived primarily from the Hitler Youth. Take particular note as to the testimonials of those who were attached to other units and fought next to them …. They too acted in the same way you are describing the Clans.
Anyone who goes into battle with this attitude is a threat not only to themselves but to the team and all allied forces attached …. These soldiers may burn bright and yet they will not burn for long at all …. And in all likelihood will take others with them when their do or die attitude backfires spectacularly …..
Plus – the Clans have never seen a war on the Scale and horror the IS fight in – the Clans are all about neat clean surgical fighting with little to no deaths – then place them on a WW1 battlefield and see how they react then psychologically …. They are in no way prepared for all the death and destruction an IS warrior is prepared for ….
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When has Comstar had a civilian ship out exploring the Deep Periphery looking for the old SL forces?
Exploration has nothing to do with the Military unless they actually find something.
And the Outbound Light was not a Magellan it was a Merchant Class Jump-ship with a Union Class and Buccaneer Class Drop-ships
Question: Why would the Outbound light contain detailed information as to the IS when it is an exploration vehicle – wouldn’t its computers memory contain useful information as to star chats etc …. It is like saying that an arctic research vessel would contain the most up to date information on the US Navy and Army – really?
Sorry but this dog don’t hunt!
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Maybe writing down what you say, or even remembering what you said in the past is needed
Do what you preach ……. The road was divided so that each Clan has one piece – it takes all the Clans to come together to form the road …. This information was then loaded into the Dragoons Navi Comps …… otherwise how did they get to the IS? Jumping blindly and hoping to be lucky?
The facts do not change – the Dragoons did have an exodus route Map – the Dragoon’s did go native – and the Clans had no way to determine if they had double crossed the Clans and supplied the IS with a copy of the map in question …..
So what level of security threat would you assign the Dragoons when they have access to the route and you have no way of knowing what they did with it.
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supplies
Problem is – Canon wrote into the game that there was only one legal route to and from Clan Space to the IS – it was only at the end of the line where the ships sent out on their merry way. (Efficiency and Security – the one HPG Grid net that allows the IS and the Home Clans to talk with each other!)
If any clan had a decent watch they should have discretely followed them to their individual Transfer Station – and then raided it in order to slow their competitors down …..
Which again shows a lacking in the Canon Game – inter-raiding between the Clans all throughout the Deep Periphery {Logistics) in order to restrict their advancement within the IS to becoming Il-Clan ….. which could have opened up the entire wolf pack scenario even further ……
Your quote – “ the clans are not completely above sabotaging the others”
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The clan council is not an individual clan. And the clan council will NOT just let even the entire invasion force just take all the ships beyond what each clan normally has
Time to go back and re-read the sarna / Clans / Executive Control
Clan Council – “Each Clan is governed by a Clan Council, a collection of all of that Clan's Bloodnamed warriors, and have nearly absolute authority over all internal matters.”
Grand Council – “the governing body of all of the Clans.”
So yeas each Clans’ individual Council can tell their merchants to hop to it – your transporting goods to the IS now ….. and they do not have a choice in the matter …..
Semantics yet again?
The Refusal War was instigated by the Falcons …..
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Camancho Cabalaros has a point where the Black Dragons had family members on live tv being executed
Still not state sponsored – just terrorists, same goes with the Dragoons …. And look how both of those worked out!
As for the DC …. This is the movement of their OWN people just as the CC did …. They are still not being used as hostages by the state.
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Where was it said the pirates can raid all they want?
I see you didn’t even bother to read it and comprehend what was written …. Just make something up …….
Pirates can raid ….. just need a Jump-Ship and a Drop-ship first …..
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Doing so nearly destroyed the FS economy.
When and where was this written? And the “Piranha effect” doesn’t exist …..
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Do not believe everything that is written.
Then go on start an excel sheet and have a look for yourself …..
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Changing things so the future could not happen, then suggest canon is wrong because it was done like this in the alt is the only end result that could happen.
Your opinion ….. not mine
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But yet Marthe took the cadets and changed the way they could gain reinforcemnts. Took them on a trip thru the LA and allowed those that scored kills to remain warriors.
Still does not change the fact they came through a sibko setting ….. depleted numbers when compared to academy setting …..
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And with the clans needing about half the forces to defeat the IS, this means they need even less
This statement only holds true if the IS have not reverse engineered Clan Weapon tech – if they are on equal footing then what?
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Could well have stations built
Problems – 1 who is going to build it and 2 where is the logistics coming from to build it in the first place (as yu are going to have to reduce consumables if you are building it in clan space and having the parts shipped to the IS) 3 what happens to all your free born laborers once the IS Psy-ops teams get their teeth into them?
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he older books suggested the reason more mechs weren't done was the lack of fusion engines.
Problem is since the reintroduction of the Helm Memory Core – the IS should have been able to begin mass production
And the fuel is water
Problems fixed!
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The idea that businesses have multiple dummy corps to allow them to do illegal things and not get caught hasn't been taught yet.
The problem is Federal Police, Auditors, Banks and the Tax Department all work together at ferreting this out …
As for terrorists – they work in cells – and usually require a person on the outside to help them with all the toys they need.
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pirate being less then a full regiment hasn't sunk into the scenario yet.
Still need that jump-ship and drop-ship …..
And still does not explain how they got it when they are supposed to be rare ….
As for captains doing something illegal ….. better hope that they don’t get caught or the pirates get caught …. As if this occurs then they are going to lose their ship and his license …. And there is still the chance the pirates will not just kill the crew and take the ship …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/11/20 07:47 PM)
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Wick
09/11/20 11:49 PM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
Did you have a look at all of sarna’s documents with regards to each Periphery Nation etc as well as their documents as to Amaris the war etc and tally up everything as supplied on an excel sheet?
And did you go through every SLDF unit – utilizing the rules as laid down the each type of SLDF unit and what they were composed of – and enter it all into an excel sheet then tally it up to provide you with a detained list as to the SLDF TO&E?
When you have done that come back and have a chat.
My goodness, your arrogance is utterly outstanding. As a matter of fact, I have collected this information for the purpose of my time-independant RAT. Mechs that are described as unique or with a small fixed number require some estimate of the total size in military at a time to properly account for random frequency, so I've scoured the source books for this information.
Star League, p 139 gives the numbers for SLDF in both 2764 and at Exodus.
2764:
125 Battlemech Divisions (each 6 regiments of mechs, 3 regiments of mechanized infantry)
200 Mechanized Infantry Divisions (each 6 regiments of mechanized infantry, 3 regiments of mechs)
75 Jump Infantry Divisions (each 6 regiments of jump infantry, 3 regiments of mechs)
50 Infantry Divisions (each 6 regiments of infantry, 3 regiments of mechs)
304 Independant Regiments (probably mix of mech and armor)
TOTAL MECH: between 1725 and 2033 regiments
Just before Exodus:
36 Battlemech Divisions
82 Infantry Divisions of all three tpyes
98 Independant Regiments
TOTAL MECH: between 462 and 560 regiments (Though not at 100% strength, they do have superior technology to House counterparts to offset this)
The collected Inner Sphere in 2750 (I'm still trying to find which source book has this):
AFFS: 50 Battlemech regiments
DCMS: 55 Battlemech regiments
LCAF: 52 Battlemech regiments
FWLM: 60 Battlemech regiments
CCAF: 42 Battlemech regiments
TDF: 13 Battlemech regiments
MAF: 9 Battlemech regiments
AMC: 5 Battlemech regiments
TOTAL: 286 mech regiments (not counting RWR, which is expected to be in the 5-20 range officially but hiding some 250-300 regiments)
And in 2765:
AFFS: 110 Battlemech regiments
DCMS: 115 Battlemech regiments
LCAF: 90 Battlemech regiments
FWLM: 95 Battlemech regiments
CCAF: 92 Battlemech regiments
TDF: 115 Battlemech regiments
MAF: 108 Battlemech regiments
AMC (actual): 11 Battlemech regiments
AMC (with Amaris supporters): 100 Battlemech regiments
RWR: 90 Battlemech regiments (officially)
TOTAL (mech only): 915 regiments
And from various other sources, we additionally have these numbers (though these may include former SLDF units, especially the 2786 numbers):
2784:
LCAF: 104 Battlemech regiments
2786:
DCMS: 161 Battlemech regiments
LCAF: 122 Battlemech regiments
CCAF: 192 Battlemech regiments
Using the growth rate of LCAF from 2765-2784, and subtracting out regiments added by absorbing former SLDF units from DCMS and CCAF, I have estimated all of them at a time around Exodus to be:
AFFS: around 128.5 mech regiments
DCMS: around 140
LCAF: 104
FWLM: around 112
CCAF: around 120
And the Star League book also tells us how many of the Periphery forces were wiped out in 2765 and 2766, so this is roughly what's left, assuming a similar growth rate (they produce less, but gain a ton of immigrants during the late 2700s, and some of those would bring mechs with them):
TDF: around 15.5
MAF: around 15
AMC: around 12.5
So your claim of DCMS+Periphery taking on the SLDF doesn't work. In 2765 these "attackers" total 528 mech regiments to the nearly 2000 of the SLDF. And in 2785, that group totals only about 183 mech regiments while the SLDF is still over 462. As I suggested earlier, your attackers need help from the FWLM and CCAF. Doing this in 2785 gives them 415 regiments, and at that point its a serious challenge to the SLDF, assuming AFFS and LCAF stay neutral. An SLDF+AFFS+LCAF team rebreaks this balance. So a story that says the DCMS and periphery would gang up and overwhelm the SLDF+AFFS+LCAF is highly problematic. The SLDF is just too big. Even if my estimates are off my a wide margin (10-20 regiments), it doesn't get any of them to the point of challenging the SLDF.
I'm welcome to have that chat where you admit you were wrong anytime you want. Or you may do your own research and provide some evidence for your attacker team being as large as the SLDF at any point in the 2750-2785 timeframe.
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Start with the 20 year update
Then go through every Battle as laid down by the each battle
Then come back with an answer ….. do not believe everything that is written!
So 20 Year Update is both right and wrong? Its wrong in its official total amount (which is reasonably in line with Objective Raids and known losses to Clans), but its correct if you read fluff and add up every battle, and somehow create additional units?
I don't believe everything that's written, but I'm willing to accept as hard fact any TO&E that specifically says "MECH STRENGTH: X" That is THE canon number and you can not dispute it by referencing fluff. You're actually asking us to trust what ISN'T official, on another one of your 'because I said so' statements.
So the onus is on you to point out exactly what statements in 20 Year Update lead one to believe there are over 30 missing mech regiments in the official AFFC TO&E, and justification for why they override the official canon number provided at the top of page 19.
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However the problem is that the Outbound light is a civilian ship and it would not have any military information contained in its data-banks – and do you know the amout of amy units your country has? So it is doubtful these scientific explorers would have any knowledge as to the specifics of any of the Houses military except in general knowledge.
I never said Smoke Jaguar got numbers from Outbound Light crew or databanks. I said Smoke Jaguar may have made up a sufficiently high number (more than Wolf's Dragoons had estimated) to fool the rest of the Clan Council into immediate action. Its merely a plausible explanation for how a wild 300 regiment/RCT number could appear in 'some Clan sourcebook' as you claim, but it still wouldn't make it the correct AFFC size. If you are adamant 300 is the correct size, you need to supply a source because the documentation proves otherwise. You can claim the AFFC takes over Capellan industry all you want to get to 300 RCTs, but we aren't arguing what's possible in your universe, we're arguing what's possible in the canon universe.
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This is dependent upon number of Jumpships / their Class – the number of Dropships / their Class – and the production capabilities of the Facilities within the Clan Home Worlds
So now its a matter of jumpship and dropship production? IS can make hundreds of thousands of not just mechs, but all the jumpships, warships, and dropships it wants to wage total war in a short amount of time - but the Clans can't reciprocate to meet their needs?
Is there some detail I've not seen about the Clan worlds almost extinguishing their supply of steel, artificial amniotic fluids, and whatever else is needed for iron wombs? Are the Clans just simply not smart enough to perform a buildup to suit their needs? Not just soldiers or mechs but transport assets as well. Clan Ghost Bear's preparation to move to the IS appears to prove that they can both plan ahead and pull it off in short order. I'm really at a loss here for how the Clans can't do these things in alt history. A population in the hundreds of millions, all focused on military efforts - as opposed to the small fraction of IS population - and they suddenly can't make new hardware...
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Yes the cans can build at a record number – problem is if the IS can kill off the Clans Pilots faster than their sibkos can graduate them the Clans are going to find themselves with a stockpile of mechs with no one to pilot them!
And now the other shoe drops. As I pointed out, the IS can't kill off the Clan pilots fast enough because they don't have the war material to do it. The math says they need 650 more mech regiments (and associated armor, infantry, and support elements) to stand a chance, assuming the Clans do not grow in size. They don't have the time to make this much material.
When the Truce of Tukayyid expired, the Clans would resume devastating the Inner Sphere and the IS really wouldn't have been ready to stop them. Better than they were in 3049, but still decades away from being able to halt Clan progress. They need more production than ever existed during the height of the Star League. Its not a matter of whether the IS can or can't do it with unlimited time - even I'll concede that given several decades they could outproduce the Star League if pressured to do so. Its a matter of whether they can in the time alloted. Based on canon numbers, the math says they need a lot more time than the 15 year truce gives them.
I understand your argument: that the IS has a greater available pool of pilots. I don't disagree with that. My argument is that they don't have the machines to turn the tide, and wouldn't have enough time to make them before the point is moot. The Inner Sphere's unlimited personnel resource is hampered by a limited production capacity.
Step 1: Increase production capacity to gain parity with the Clans. This mostly takes the form of mechs, fighters, and warships, not small arms.
Step 2: Allow attrition to take hold, such that Inner Sphere material production outpaces Clan pilot and/or material production.
Step 3: Conquer the Clans when they can no longer maintain the rate of attrition.
My point is that you keep wanting to start at step 2, but you can't get to step 2 without step 1, which is not an achievable goal in a 15 year timeframe.
And I've no idea how IS soldiers would be able to kill any pilots of the home clans with snipers and IEDs. They can't get their soldiers within 1000 light years of homeworld Clanners in the 3050s, let alone close enough to pick them off with a rifle or plant a bomb. Yet, they find a way to do just that so the Clan pilot count can be reduced by something like half (i.e., tens of thousands of assassinations) just to make Mr Requiem right. Truly astounding powers these Spheroids in your home campaigns must have.
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they cant buy it as they don’t have the money or the credit at the local bank
Now pirates don't have money either? Where is this written? And how deep do you want to dig this hole?
The canon is rife with refugees moving to other plants (such as FRR citizens fleeing to the Illyrian Palatinate) - if refugee groups can afford to transport half way across the Inner Sphere (dozens of jumps), why can't a pirate group afford to make two jumps (there and back)? I don't know if there's a number in the printed material, but based on HBS game, the price of a single jump is 30 thousand C-bills per docking collar, which really isn't much in the big scheme of things. If pirates take a warehouse full of a million c-bills worth of booty, then 60K is just a small bit. (My guess is they spend well more than 60K per operation just on unit maintenance, food, and lodging.)
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Then there is the issue as to the number of pirates …. Where did you get your inflated figures as the amount of pirates within the IS at any point in time?
The presence of garrison troops on backwater worlds indicates pirates are at least common enough to warrant their necessity. Individual pirate actions may be rare, but not rare enough to leave high value targets unguarded. This was ghostrider's original assertion, and you haven't countered it with any evidence of your own.
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And this time try and come up with a plausible story ….
You've argued that there is either no jumpships in the periphery (and therefore no inhabited planets) or that jumpships are entirely immune to pirate actions (disproved by canon references to hijacking) or that pirates are too poor (disproved by canon references to refugees affording travel and supporting evidence for a reasonable cost). And you still want to call us implausible? Why don't YOU try this time. You have said four times now they are rare, but provided no explanation or evidence in any of those four cases. The assumption is that you don't think there's enough jumpship traffic - but there seems to be more than you think there is.
Let's do some more math here.
* It takes roughly 180 hours to charge a sail. Let's give 200 for star variability, unpacking the sail, repacking, and sitting at station. And another 100 just for sufficient wiggle room.
* There are 8766 hours in an average year, so this allows our jumpship to comfortably make 29 jumps a year (and probably pushing 40 in more reasonable scenarios.)
* Most worlds in the near periphery are within two jumps of another. So let's say our pirates are four jumps away from target to be safer from bias. (Tortuga is four from the nearest FedSuns worlds so this is fair estimate.)
* Thus a jumpship operating on these frequencies could visit about 7.3 inhabited worlds per year.
* I forget the source, but canon spells out that the Magistracy is jumpship-poor even for periphery, and only has 24 jumpships travelling its stars. Split between 42 worlds, and assuming all were equal (they aren't) that's .57 of a jumpship per inhabited world.
* So taking our numeric frequency (.57/world) and visiting frequency (7.3/year), we now have an average periphery world visited by jumpship 4.17 times per year.
* Pirates need only wait an average of twelves weeks in this scenario for a jumpship to come along, for which I gave a lot of benefits to a less frequent scenario. In scenarios where the jumpship doesn't dally as long, pirates are closer to target world, or operating in more frequently visited systems (such as popular trading lanes), then the wait would be less than twelve weeks.
That's not too frequent but its also not so rare as to invalidate the possibility of pirates hitching a ride or attacking one of them (particularly with some knowledge of the jumpship's schedule.) Its definitely a plausible story, as you requested.
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