GiovanniBlasini
04/09/18 03:31 PM
199.204.56.233
|
(Further proof I have both lost my damned mind, and played too much Kerbal Space Program)
Belters in the Niops Association have always been an odd, but small, bunch, and the Niops Association Civil War, turning Niops V, VI and VII against one another, followed by the invasion and resistance against the Word of Blake, didn't help matters. What it did do, though, is stretch the supplies of technology even thinner for Niopian Belters.
Fortunately, the Niops Association's agreement to expand asteroid mining in partnership with Interstellar Expeditions has been a tremendous boon for Niopian Belters. Unfortunately, they are still too often finding themselves having to scrounge for hand-me-down technology, either from the rest of the Niops Association, from Interstellar Expeditions, or from trade with other systems. This left the Belters short on a reliable source of small shuttles and other spacecraft, and, like production of Space Hound IndustrialMechs for mining operations, the Belters have begun producing their own small shuttles, through the newly-founded Niops Association Space Administration
Unfortunately, a standard for fusion engines is still in short supply, so "NASA" has been forced to standardize on a collection of interchangable modules and parts, using the Pogo aerospace fighter/shuttle as a starting point. The basic craft, dubbed the Corvus, features a standardized two-seat cockpit module with integrated RCS thrusters, capable of being ejected from the main craft as an escape pod with limited maneuverability. Basic variations on this command pod include extensions for passenger compartements (nicknamed the "Appaloosa", "Brumby" and "Bigby" ensuring that, in an emergency, all passengers are capable of evacuating a stricken craft at the same time. This has permitted variations on the basic Corvus system to be used for craft ranging from a mere 5 tons all the way up to 80 tons.
In addition to these spacecraft, small space stations, some no larger than common satellites, have also been put into production. Built to lower technical standards than the Corvus, many of these stations utilize solar-electric propulsion for stationkeeping - while solar output from an M5V star like Niops is relatively low compared to larger yellow dwarfs like Sol, their needs tend to be modest enough for this to not be an issue. Also, because the Niopian Belters are, like most Belters, only loosely associated, it's no surprise then that other groups of belters have gone so far as to import or license other spacecraft, such as the Soyuz, common in the Fitvelt Coalition and Davion Outback, or even developed their own homegrown solutions.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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GiovanniBlasini
04/09/18 03:32 PM
199.204.56.233
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Corvus Series Civilian Shuttles
CRV-5c Corvus
-- CRV-5c Corvus shown with supplemental solar panels deployed
Appearing to be either a licensed version or a knockoff of the Pogo civilian shuttle (or more likely inspired by the same progenitor), the Corvus series of civilian shuttles are, like the Pogo, essentially built to aerospace fighter standards, with the exception of using civilian electronics. Like the Pogo, the Corvus is built as a series of "modules" which can be attached to one another, depending upon individual needs.
The base model Corvus, designated the CRV-5c (for "5-ton civilian") is little more than the 3-ton standardized emergency cockpit module with RCS thrusters, a 1-ton payload bay divided evenly between consumables and fuel, and a small, 10-rating fusion engine and drive system. While severely limited compared to larger shuttles, this basic Corvus is capable of travel between nearby asteroid mining facilities, or even between the planets in the Niops system, though the limited fuel and passenger capacity makes this a difficult proposition, despite the close proximity of Niops V, VI and VII.
Code:
Corvus CRV-5c
Base Tech Level: Standard (IS)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3145+
Tech Rating: D/C-E-D-D
Weight: 5 tons
BV: 31
Cost: 473,362 C-bills
Movement: 3/5
Engine: 5
Heat Sinks: 10
Fuel Points: 0/40 (0.5 tons)
Structural Integrity: 3
Armor: 8
Armor
-------------------
Nose 2
Left Wing 2
Right Wing 2
Aft 2
Equipment Loc
-----------------------
Cargo (0.5 tons) NOS
Quirks:
Modular "Weapons"
Rumble Seat
Whole-Cockpit Ejection System
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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GiovanniBlasini
04/09/18 03:33 PM
199.204.56.233
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CRV-10c Corvus
Essentially the smaller Corvus command module with a stretched cargo module and larger powerplant, the CRV-10c Corvus carries a larger cargo module than its smaller sibling, as well as a larger fusion engine. In the case of the CRV-10c, the cargo module and cockpit module do not quick detach, functioning as a single stretched module, akin to the Pogo. This allows the flight crew and up to seven passengers to detach the fusion drive and hydrogen tankage in an emergency, while possessing limited maneuverability thanks to the conventional RCS thrusters in the crew module.
Code:
Corvus CRV-10c
Base Tech Level: Standard (IS)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3145+
Tech Rating: D/C-E-D-D
Weight: 10 tons
BV: 110
Cost: 695,275 C-bills
Movement: 6/9
Engine: 40
Heat Sinks: 10
Fuel Points: 240 (2.0 tons)
Structural Integrity: 6
Armor: 32
Armor
-------------------
Nose 8
Left Wing 8
Right Wing 8
Aft 8
Equipment Loc
---------------------
Cargo (2 tons) NOS
Quirks:
Modular "Weapons"
Rumble Seat
Whole-Cockpit Ejection System
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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GiovanniBlasini
04/09/18 03:33 PM
199.204.56.233
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CRV-80c Corvus
Significantly larger than the more common CRV-10c or CRV-5c, the 80-ton Corvus mounts the common crew compartment on a much larger winged chassis capable of atmospheric flight, as well as vertical landings on airless bodies. The standard layout of the Corvus 80c is to carry thirty tons of cargo, a 10-ton fuel bunker, and a variety of useful civilian sensors and imagery equipment, as well as enhanced communications gear. Unfortunately, the CRV-80c uses the same 160-rating fusion plant as the Rock Hound IndustrialMech, making engines harder to come by.
One common variant of the 80-ton Corvus is the CRV-80m, which uses a 240-rating fusion engine, and military-grade sensors and communications equipment. The remaining mass is taken up by three extended range large lasers, and a tail-mounted ER medium laser, with a Beagle active probe to enhance sensor capabilities. Two tons of cargo are reserved for the flight crew to use for supplies.
Code:
Corvus CRV-80c
Base Tech Level: Standard (IS)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced 3145+
Standard -
Tech Rating: D/X-X-F-E
Weight: 80 tons
BV: 499
Cost: 4,075,587 C-bills
Movement: 4/6
Engine: 160
Heat Sinks: 10
Fuel Points: 240/800 (10.0 tons)
Structural Integrity: 8
Armor: 160
Armor
-------------------
Nose 40
Left Wing 40
Right Wing 40
Aft 40
Equipment Loc
---------------------------------------------------------
Cargo (10 tons) NOS
Communications Equipment (6 ton) AFT
Satellite Imager [Hyperspectral Imager] LWG
Satellite Imager [Look-Down Radar] RWG
Cargo (10 tons) AFT
Cargo (10 tons) AFT
Satellite Imager [High-Resolution (Hi-Res) Imager] RWG
Code:
Corvus CRV-80m
Base Tech Level: Standard (IS)
Level Era
-------------------
Experimental -
Advanced -
Standard 3145+
Tech Rating: E/X-X-D-D
Weight: 80 tons
BV: 1,224
Cost: 4,437,720 C-bills
Movement: 5/8
Engine: 240
Heat Sinks: 36
Fuel Points: 800 (10.0 tons)
Structural Integrity: 8
Armor: 160
Armor
-------------------
Nose 40
Left Wing 40
Right Wing 40
Aft 40
Weapons Loc Heat
----------------------------
ER Large Laser LWG 12
ER Large Laser NOS 12
ER Large Laser RWG 12
ER Medium Laser AFT 5
Equipment Loc
----------------------------
Active Probe (Beagle) NOS
Cargo (2 tons) NOS
Quirks:
Modular "Weapons"
Rumble Seat
Whole-Cockpit Ejection System
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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GiovanniBlasini
04/09/18 03:57 PM
199.204.56.233
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Bigby Orbital Habitat
The Bigby Orbital Habitat is a small, 80-ton space station constructed largely to satellite standards. With, nominally, space for four crew, the Bigby has sufficient cargo capacity to support them for a standard Terran year without resupply, though fuel supplies for the solar-electric stationkeeping thrusters will need more frequent replenishment if the station is not placed in a gravitationally-stable orbit. With a cost of just under 700 thousand C-Bills, the Bigby is a remarkably cheap for a station that can support four people for long periods.
While lacking an integrated launch bay for a lifeboat or escape pod, craft such as the Corvus or Helios class craft are usually used in conjunction with a Bigby, giving inhabitants a quick means of escape.
Code:
Bigby Habitat
Type: Satellite
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Tech Rating: D
Total Mass: 80 tons
Structure Wt (Rounded): 10 tons
Engine Weight: 36 tons
Fuel (~93 burn-days): 4 tons
Armor: 44 points BAR 7 (11/location): 2 tons
Steerage Quarters (4): 20 tons
Cargo (4 doors): 8 tons
Cost: approx. 674 thousand C-Bills
BV: HAH!
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Cray
04/09/18 05:51 PM
97.101.136.19
|
Quote:
Unfortunately, a standard for fusion engines is still in short supply, so "NASA" has been forced to standardize on a collection of interchangable modules and parts, using the Pogo aerospace fighter/shuttle as a starting point.
Wow...15 years of thread necromancy. I wonder if I posted the Pogo on Sarna, too.
Quote:
The basic craft, dubbed the Corvus, features a standardized two-seat cockpit module with integrated RCS thrusters, capable of being ejected from the main craft as an escape pod with limited maneuverability. Basic variations on this command pod include extensions for passenger compartements (nicknamed the "Appaloosa", "Brumby" and "Bigby" ensuring that, in an emergency, all passengers are capable of evacuating a stricken craft at the same time. This has permitted variations on the basic Corvus system to be used for craft ranging from a mere 5 tons all the way up to 80 tons.
I really like how you've run with the modular aspect of the Pogo and turned it into a full series of vehicles.
Also, I'm impressed at how well Kerbal models these. Looks like you've got the historical parts expansion pack.  I bet you could even model the CRV-80c in there.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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GiovanniBlasini
04/09/18 09:45 PM
162.218.1.222
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Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunately, a standard for fusion engines is still in short supply, so "NASA" has been forced to standardize on a collection of interchangable modules and parts, using the Pogo aerospace fighter/shuttle as a starting point.
Wow...15 years of thread necromancy. I wonder if I posted the Pogo on Sarna, too.
I don't recall it being over here. And the Pogo touched off my old Soyuz and Apollo conversions I did on HMP.
BTW, should this thread go under Battlespace/AT2? If so, please feel free to move it there.
Quote:
Quote:
The basic craft, dubbed the Corvus, features a standardized two-seat cockpit module with integrated RCS thrusters, capable of being ejected from the main craft as an escape pod with limited maneuverability. Basic variations on this command pod include extensions for passenger compartements (nicknamed the "Appaloosa", "Brumby" and "Bigby" ensuring that, in an emergency, all passengers are capable of evacuating a stricken craft at the same time. This has permitted variations on the basic Corvus system to be used for craft ranging from a mere 5 tons all the way up to 80 tons.
I really like how you've run with the modular aspect of the Pogo and turned it into a full series of vehicles.
Thanks! There's probably a limit on how much you can legitimately stretch the idea of the Full Head/Cockpit Ejection quirk (I've seen Big Gemini concepts for carrying up to, like, 25 people), but it's an awesome starting point without having to pay the extra mass for an actual escape pod/lifeboat (which I can't figure out how to reproduce under current rules, especially the escape pod).
Quote:
Also, I'm impressed at how well Kerbal models these. Looks like you've got the historical parts expansion pack. I bet you could even model the CRV-80c in there.
Making History has their own take on Gemini, but that's not what I'm using, actually. If you're looking for free add-ons for Gemini in KSP, prepare to go down the rabbit hole:
K2 Command Pod: a "stockalike" 1.25 meter take on Gemini. Smallest add-on of the bunch, consisting of the pod only, so it's up to you to provide your own service module, heat shield, RCS and parachutes.
The starting point for the above is the Corvus CF, another 1.25m/size 1 take on Gemini, but with a few more pieces. Capsule is one, nose RCS and parachute is another, and it has its own low-profile heat shield, separator, 1.25m service module (with separate engine and tank), an adaptor to use it with 1.875 meter parts common in a lot of add-ons and added in Making History, and a couple revamps on the larger 1.25 meter tanks to look more like a Titan II.
Next up is Mark One Laboratory Extensions or M.O.L.E., which gives you a stockalike 1.875 meter Titan and MOL, a 1.875 meter extension for the Mk. 1 to add a second person, a 1.875 meter 2-seat Gemini, its own nose-mounted modules, service modules, and the Skylab parts you see above. Also, the Big Gemini extension you see in the Corvus 10 was a combination of the 1.25-to-1.875m extension that I tacked onto the Corvus, then the M.O.L.E. 1.875-to-2.5 meter take on Big Gemini.
Last up is Bluedog Design Bureau, which has beautifully-rendered Mercury, Gemini and Apollo parts, its own Skylab, and something like 400 other parts that allow you to recreate pretty much every booster and spacecraft from Vanguard 1 to Apollo/Skylab. It's insane, it's hugely complicated, and as much as I like having access to small satellites at the beginning of my Science games, it's so damned complicated to deal with that it makes my head spin.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Cray
04/10/18 06:42 PM
97.101.136.19
|
Ah, thanks for the Kerbal pointers. I'm currently futzing around with a cis-Minmus orbital fueling infrastructure (current issue: mega-tanker collapses on the launch pad) and an all-stock TAU probe with live Kerbal crew.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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GiovanniBlasini
04/10/18 07:41 PM
172.56.13.0
|
Quote:
Ah, thanks for the Kerbal pointers. I'm currently futzing around with a cis-Minmus orbital fueling infrastructure (current issue: mega-tanker collapses on the launch pad) and an all-stock TAU probe with live Kerbal crew.
Yeah, holy crap that must be a build. Do you play with one of the life support mods? In my case, I use Snacks! so, even with recycling and a greenhouse, I imagine my poor Kerbals would be going hungry at some point if I tried something like that.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Cray
04/11/18 05:45 PM
97.101.136.19
|
Quote:
Yeah, holy crap that must be a build. Do you play with one of the life support mods? In my case, I use Snacks! so, even with recycling and a greenhouse, I imagine my poor Kerbals would be going hungry at some point if I tried something like that.
I haven't used life support mods yet. My first TAU added agricultural and aquaponics modules from the Stockalike station parts as a nod to closed life support (and xenon tanks and ion engines from Near Future Propulsion, and a spin habitat, and a reactor from a planetary base mod, etc.). This all-stock one has a hab consisting of a command module, a hitchhiker can, and a science lab, and I like to imagine there's suspended animation capsules in there.
But I'm a lazy sand boxer. I have more fun executing my semi-grounded dreams of spaceflight within the consistent rules of the Kerbalverse than following a career or science path and someone else's missions. Hence my 27,000-ton megalaunchers and the like.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
04/12/18 12:52 AM
72.176.187.91
|
What program are you using?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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GiovanniBlasini
04/12/18 11:06 AM
199.204.56.236
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Quote:
What program are you using?
For the pictures? Kerbal Space Program.
For the text output of the fighters? MegaMekLab. Heavy Metal Aero, besides being outdated, doesn't support aerospace fighters under 10 tons, which were introduced to the game with the Welcome to the Nebula California book.
For the text output of the station? Excel. HMA is not aware of the existence of satellites, or space stations under 2000 tons, and they aren't in MegaMekLab yet.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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AmaroqStarwind
04/12/18 09:10 PM
99.203.154.210
|
The rules for oddball tonnages in Welcome to Nebula California are a bit flawed, in my opinion. If they had opted to use Fractional Accounting (where everything is rounded to the nearest kilogram, versus up to the next half-ton), then they could also use the ProtoMech rules for Fusion Engines with ratings lower than 40.
As far as I can tell, Fractional Accounting is the only real way to make any combat vehicles in the 2 to 15 ton range actually viable.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
Karagin
04/13/18 01:00 AM
72.176.187.91
|
Actually HMAero does allow smaller craft, you can make conventional fighters at 5 tons. And if you change to Level 3 rules you can make 5 ton aerospace fighters, funny how quick you want to dismiss the program yet it can still do a lot if you know what you are doing with it...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
04/13/18 01:02 AM
72.176.187.91
|
AGAIN Level 3 allows for a space station at 1300 tons, so you were saying what again about HMAero?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
04/13/18 12:17 PM
64.189.130.11
|
Quote:
As far as I can tell, Fractional Accounting is the only real way to make any combat vehicles in the 2 to 15 ton range actually viable.
I've made a handful of neat Ultralight vehicles without FA, so not impossible, but fractional certainly helps.
Edited by Retry (04/13/18 12:18 PM)
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GiovanniBlasini
04/13/18 06:18 PM
199.204.56.154
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Quote:
AGAIN Level 3 allows for a space station at 1300 tons, so you were saying what again about HMAero?
Whoopty **** do. Let me know when that outdated VBasic app can handle a 75-ton station. Or a satellite of any tonnage.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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GiovanniBlasini
04/13/18 06:39 PM
199.204.56.239
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To continue our discussion on the merits of HMA for designing these craft:
Quote:
Actually HMAero does allow smaller craft, you can make conventional fighters at 5 tons.
Conventional fighters are not aerospace fighters, and are built under significantly different rules.
Quote:
And if you change to Level 3 rules you can make 5 ton aerospace fighters, funny how quick you want to dismiss the program yet it can still do a lot if you know what you are doing with it...
You're right that you can make a 5-ton aerospace fighter. If you think I could've made the Corvus-5c? Well, then you're wrong.
You'll note how the base model Corvus has a 0.5 ton fuel tank, right? Yeah, even with fractional accounting, you can't do that **** in HMA. Full ton allotments of fuel only.
Don't get me wrong, Karagin, in its day, HeavyMetal Aero was a fine program. That day, unfortunately, was 10 years ago, which is around the time Rick released his last batch of updates (September 22, 2008). For a fairly ordinary fighter, small craft or DropShip, HMA isn't awful, but doesn't present the full range of options available, and has to kludge a lot of things. For WarShips, it's fine, and in fact was how I did the baseline design for the Black Lion I, and I still use it for my personal designs.
For the Corvus line? Not as useful. For stuff like the Bigby station, it's utterly worthless, and for you to extoll the virtues of the application because it can build 1300-ton space stations in a thread building homages to real space hardware, like Skylab, which sure as hell isn't 1300 tons, is disingenuous at best, Karagin.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Cray
04/13/18 07:18 PM
67.8.228.37
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So, I'm not going to lock this thread yet, but the discussion needs to shift gears: away from editing software, and to a lower intensity in general.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
04/13/18 07:25 PM
72.176.187.91
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The point, GiovanniBlasini, is the program can still do things that you claim it can not, you can still make small aerofighters and other craft, which I easily pointed out. If you don't want to use it then don't. Just don't say it can not do something when in fact it can and what it can not do, there is the neat program call Pencil and Paper.
Cray where did we cross a line? Please enlighten me on what line in the rules was crossed? There is no name calling, there is talk about HOW a program built to be used in Battletech is still able to do what it was designed to do, so please would you kindly tell us HOW talking about that breaks any of the rules? Better still I will ask Nic.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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GiovanniBlasini
04/14/18 01:59 PM
66.170.7.85
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If it can Karagin, it should be easy for you to recreate the CRV-5c with it, with the exact same specs, right? Or the Bigby station. Go ahead and do so, and feel free to post it when done. Until then, let's not hear anything else about HMA, 'Kay?
Moving on, discussion on the official forums has me prepping an expanded Bibgy with a little bitty yard, to use to construct the other "NASA" craft.
In fact, at one point, something had been considered for Skylab, back when the Shuttle was still expected to reach it and reboot it before it reentered and burned ip. The plan was to refurbish it, dock more module, including converting an external fuel tank from the Shuttle into a space dock for orbital construction.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Karagin
04/14/18 04:48 PM
72.176.187.91
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I will talk about HMA when I want Giovanni.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
04/14/18 05:38 PM
174.70.184.145
|
Quote:
I will talk about HMA when I want Giovanni.
Cray said specifically that the discussion needs to shift away from editing software, so no, you can't.
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Karagin
04/14/18 05:51 PM
72.176.187.91
|
So let's talk about HMAero...seems you can do a lot with it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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AmaroqStarwind
04/14/18 06:57 PM
174.235.17.105
|
Karagin, stop. Take it to private messages or to another thread.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
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