AmaroqStarwind
04/26/18 03:03 AM
174.235.17.140
|
Is anyone on here making any mechs that use the Large Engines introduced in Tactical Operations?
For the new readers unfamiliar with a Large Engine... It occupies two additional critical spaces in the center torso and allows you to exceed the 400 rating barrier. However, it maintains the same tonnage curve as previous engines. As you can see from the graph (or from my abridged list), this makes Large Engines very impractical, and in some cases outright unattainable. Furthermore, they also require 5 ton gyroscopes, or 10 tons in the case of SuperHeavy mechs (and because of the additional space occupied by the engine, XL Gyros cannot be used in non-SuperHeavy mechs).
Compact and Fuel Cell versions of the Large Engine do not exist, but Large Internal Combustion and Large Fission Engines do, as well as Large Fusion, Large Light Engine, Large XL and Large XXL Engines.
As to be expected, it is also possible for Primitive Large Engines to exist by proxy, since a Primitive Fusion Engine could turn out to have a Primitive Engine Rating higher than 400.
That said, they do have some very niche uses. If you were willing to make some sacrifices in firepower and durability, you could give a Timber Wolf a 6/9 movement profile with a 450 XXL (which wouldn't be too much heavier than a 375 XL, at least compared to some alternatives).
Equipping a Dire Wolf or Atlas with a 500 XXL though... Not happening, since the engine itself still weighs over 150 tons. (A 500 Standard is much worse, nearly 500 tons, and the 500 Internal Combustion is nearly 1000.)
Large Engine Rating: Mass (in Metric Tons)
All tonnages are for the "Standard" Large Fusion Engines. Divide by 2 or by 3 for XL and XXL respectively.
405: 56.5 Tons
410: 61.0 Tons
415: 66.5 Tons
420: 72.5 Tons
425: 79.5 Tons
430: 87.5 Tons
435: 97.0 Tons
440: 107.5 Tons
445: 119.5 Tons
450: 133.5 Tons
455: 150.0 Tons
460: 168.5 Tons
465: 190.0 Tons
470: 214.5 Tons
475: 243.0 Tons
480: 275.5 Tons
485: 313.0 Tons
490: 356.0 Tons
495: 405.5 Tons
500: 462.5 Tons
So... Does anybody actually use these things? If so, I'd like to see a design that uses a Large Engine.
Attachment (341 downloads)
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable.
Edited by AmaroqStarwind (04/26/18 05:29 AM)
|
Retry
04/26/18 09:45 AM
64.189.130.11
|
A 6/9 Timberwolf with an XXL pays 44.5 tons in weight for that engine, versus the usual 19.5 tons for the 375 XL. That's even before the heavier gyro is taken into account, so you lose 20 tons of payload and armor even with the XXL, so it's not just "a bit" heavier.
Also, a new reader that's unfamiliar with Large engines is probably not making battlemechs with them.
|
wolf_lord_30
04/26/18 10:47 AM
74.214.54.153
|
I am stuck in my ways and only really play up to 3058 eras, maybe up to 3064 and that is pushing it for me. I just don't like all that new equipment of the later eras. It seems like a little bit of a benefit with so many downsides as to counteract it to keep it balanced. Balance is good most of the time, but it can really kill a good idea as well. Sometimes, certain weapons or equipment should just be better. If that large laser isn't comparable anymore, then so what? I can play in that era it was good in. Or I can have low grade mechs that probably won't stand a chance, but that is just what happens.
I can usually excuse the realism aspect of the game, but in this case, new and shiny equipment should usually be better in the field than the old stuff.
I played a few games in the dark ages for fun a month ago. The mech designs were, um, interesting. Some weren't bad and some were mean, and some had weird and quirky items and equipment on them, that I was scratching my head as to their actual use. I was thinking, why is this even a thing?
And this large engine seems to be just another one of those useless items that was made to be enhance a mech and then thrown into the junkpile in the name of balance.
|
AmaroqStarwind
04/26/18 12:35 PM
174.235.17.140
|
"Balance"?! There's nothing balanced about a piece of equipment that's literally unusable. Something really needs to change.
Seriously... Heavy Lasers, ProtoMech Autocannons (or for that matter, any autocannons), ELRMs, ER Pulse Lasers, Re-engineered Lasers, Watchdog CEWS, RISC Hyper Laser, etc. They are supposed to be the pinnacles of technological development, so why are the all so terrible?
The transition from the ATM to the iATM? That was done right.
Also, I am probably the only person who doesn't mind that Ferro Lamellar occupies 12 critical slots. Aircraft be being literally impervious to anti-aircraft weapons just isn't right.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable.
Edited by AmaroqStarwind (04/26/18 12:51 PM)
|
Retry
04/26/18 02:49 PM
64.189.130.11
|
Heavy Lasers aren't terrible, they're just overshadowed by the clan ER/Pulse variants of normal lasers and should really just be IS weapons and not clan weapons. It's mis-allocated, but not terrible.
PACs were intended to be autocannons that are lightweight enough to be carried on a Protomech, nothing more. So the reason why it's terrible is probably just because autocannons in general are bad. i'd just recommend a hearty dose of house rules for these ones.
Extended LRMs aren't bad by IS standards. They do require substantial thought put into them to make a good platform and can't just be shoved in as an afterthought like a Medium Laser can.
ER Pulse Lasers are not bad. They run a bit hot for weapons that are essentially compromises between the Clan ER and Pulse lasers. ERPLs are about what one would expect from that from an engineering perspective. In the case of the ERMPL, it can reach LoS range under the Tac Ops LoS rules while the MPL cannot, which is an advantage.
Re-Engineered Lasers (well, the Large one) are actually pretty good as an IS weapon. A tiny bit hotter for a little more damage and accuracy at the same range brackets. They're not as compact as the standard variants but that accuracy buff (especially if paired with a targeting computer) can work wonders. That it doesn't have to worry about special armor shenanigans is nothing but icing, making it ideal for a general-purpose unit like a Bulldog refit. Maybe refit it on a Panther, or a Vindicator. Or a Thunderbolt.
Watchdog CEWS is awful, no argument there. I think it used to work as an active probe + ECM in earlier books but the probe got changed to a LAP. Should really be changed back to the normal probe.
The RISC Hyper Laser is so terrible precisely because it's a pinnacle of technological development. It's a defective, high-tech prototype that's ahead of its time, resulting in explodeyness. If the RISC Hyper Laser were to ever iron out its teething issues, 20 points out at 25 hexes is a very scary potential headcapper and automatic PSR forcer that'd easily rival Clan weapons. It's a shame that didn't happen in canon though.
FL only reduces LB-X like damage to zero, not stuff like Streak LRMs, Pulse Lasers, HAGs, Regular autocannons firing Flak rounds, and other stuff. Also it's only found on two fighters: The Persepolis 2 and the Scytha XR. It's also found on exactly 0 canon VTOLs so it's not close to rendering LB-Xs obsolete quite yet.
|
AmaroqStarwind
04/26/18 08:13 PM
174.235.17.140
|
Right, my bad on the PAC, Heavy Laser and ER Pulse. Sorry.
The RISC Hyper Laser and Re-engineered Laser, though... The Small puts out a whopping 4 heat, giving it a 1:1 Damage to Heat Ratio, not to mention that for a Small, it is surprisingly heavy and bulky. And the RISC Hyper Laser, admittedly, wasn't so obvious to me right away.
Back on the subject of Large Engines... The tonnage curve is way too steep at that level and should be shallowed out some. It is possible that they were meant to be a practical joke on the part of the developers. Look at the 500 XXL, for instance; literally the only type of unit with enough tonnage to carry it is a 200 ton mech, but since 5/2 is 2.5, that would result in an Oversized Engine violation.
The only way it would be possible for a SuperHeavy Mech to carry such an engine would be if SuperHeavies had a Suspension Factor (representing their incredible height and massive strides) equal to half their tonnage (rounded to the nearest multiple of 5), but in order to prevent the the mech from going 24 meters per second (82.4 km/h) you would also have to change their Engine Rating Calculation to match what ProtoMechs use, where your Engine Rating is based on your desired Run speed, rather than your desired Walk Speed. But even under those new rules, where a 200 Ton Mech calculates its engine rating based on its Run MP rather than its Walk MP (thus requiring the 500 XXL in the first place), thanks to having a Suspension Factor of 100 it is still able to go as fast as 54 km/h (the same speed as an Atlas), or roughly 20.8 km/h faster than a SuperHeavy Mech with a 400 XL under the old rules.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable.
Edited by AmaroqStarwind (04/26/18 08:28 PM)
|
Retry
04/27/18 02:40 PM
64.189.130.11
|
The S and M Re-Engi Lasers don't scale well, no. You can still find applications for the Small on Conventional Fighters and Aerospace Fighters, and the Medium can make a decent fit on light vehicles. I'll post some later.
I do believe it's possible to get a 500 XLE on a superheavy displacement hull. Not very practical, but possible.
I don't think the intent was to make Large engines possible, more like an example or justification of why no one ever bothers to put anything larger than a 400 engine in a vehicle or battlemech as they further get hit by the big exponential curve that already makes the 400 pretty impractical. The Larges are then more technology demonstrators than anything else.
I don't think there's any real purpose to specifically try to make large engines feasible, either.
|
TigerShark
04/27/18 02:51 PM
12.130.166.32
|
I would say that, while niche, some of the Dark Age tech isn't exactly "useless." Re-engineered lasers are just intended to work in the era in which they're designed, nothing more. Yes, they're crap if you put them next to Clan or 3060 IS tech. But like the Blue Shield system, they can be incredibly useful under very specific circumstances.
It's just that those circumstances aren't always predictable.
Take Acid ammo for example. It's complete bollocks under normal conditions, but if you're facing Clan players with OmniMechs, you're seeing what they've bid ahead of time. If their 'Mechs are known to have FF armor.. that's useful. Same with the Combine or Blakists when utilizing a C3 or C3i network. Bringing ARAD ammo would be a huge benefit in wiping out your ECM targets without the burden of dedicated ECCM units.
|
AmaroqStarwind
04/27/18 03:54 PM
108.255.82.176
|
The original 1994 Tactical Handbook also mentioned that the Clans enjoyed using Heat Seeking missiles since Inner Sphere mechs are usually a lot worse at staying cool. Still extremely niche though.
Maybe I'm just bitter because of the Large Fusion Engines being so useless... I just wish they were all light enough to actually fit on existing units. Large Internal Combustion and Large Fission, though, I don't really care that much what happens to them.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
Hyperspace
12/29/19 04:26 AM
184.22.212.126
|
Large engines are anomalously massive.
Utilizing an 6th order polynomial trend fit to the masses of regular engines up to ER 400, the predicted mass of an ER 500 would only be 205.5 tons.
As is, the large engines are so over-heavy they make no sense in usage whatsoever. Even if you could build super-heavy 'mechs > 100 tons, and even with XXLs at only one-third the engine mass, the (game) optimal mass for 3/5 would be around 115-120 tons (with around a 350-rated XXL), and for 2/3 would be 200 tons (with an even 400-rated XXL engine)
|
ghostrider
12/29/19 01:36 PM
66.74.60.165
|
When does the weight curve taper off?
I find it unlikely that they would continue to raise in weight at the standard rate. With the exception of the developers wanting it that way.
And with this, the actual volume of the engines don't take up more then the six criticals in the chest of a mech, no matter if it is a locust or an atlas.
So with this in mind, the engines would have to become more solid. Much like what would happen if you used aluminum in a can, then went up to lead. The inside of the engine would actually shrink in usable space.
Does anyone else find this to be odd, or out of proportion?
|
AmaroqStarwind
12/29/19 02:08 PM
8.6.112.65
|
Since Large Engines and Superheavy units aren't tournament legal, I'd just use my own rules for Large Engines.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
Hyperspace
01/04/20 07:29 AM
184.22.218.97
|
Pretty close approximation is:
Engine Tonnage = exp( ER / 100 )
|
|
|
Extra information
|
0 registered and 79 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 6988
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
