masdog5
08/18/02 05:49 PM
66.72.236.80
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After re-reading a number of battletech books, looking over trs, and reading the rules about rotary autocannons, I'm confused about what an autocannon really is.
Is it like the main gun on a tank(or one of the main guns on a battleship for that matter) like the name, and hte cover of storms of fate, imply?
Or is it more like the gun on an A-10 warthog? If so, then how would a rotary autocannon be different from a regular autocannon?
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Cray
08/18/02 06:57 PM
12.91.139.51
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Simply put: an autocannon is a cannon that fires at least several shells per turn to do its damage.
It doesn't matter how the damage is done. An AC/2 from Acme Arms may be a single-barreled, slow-firing 40mm cannon while an AC/2 from Imperator Arms may be a 20mm gatling gun. The 185mm Chemjet (AC/20) of the Demolisher fires about 5 shells per turn, while I think the Hetzer's AC/20 is a 150mm weapon that fires about 10 shells per turn. Both are singled barreled. There's nothing stopping another weapons maker from building an AC/20 that's a 60mm gatling gun.
A rotary autocannon is an autocannon that specifically uses multiple barrels and *can* fire many more shells than normal autocannons in the same class. A 20mm RAC/2 is a gatling weapon that may fire six times as many shells as a 20mm AC/2 that's also a gatling.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/18/02 07:21 PM
63.173.170.182
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The older novels had it as a Vulcan like weapon which used cassette type ammo which held hundreds of smaller rounds.
This would be like the A10 30mm GE Gatling Gun or the naval Phalanx system.
The Gauss rifle is more like a tank cannon in regards of one shell is fried out of it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
08/18/02 11:19 PM
205.213.145.27
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Oh...thats interesting. THanks for clearing that up for me.
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Countergod
08/19/02 01:05 PM
128.165.156.80
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What really interests me about Autocannons is the range (or lack thereof) An AC20 is generally between 185 and 200mm, which in inches is about 7.5 to 8 inches. Most navel vessels of the Modern US navy carries one main gun ranging from 5 to 8 inches. now these things fire shells that reach for over 10 miles, as opposed to the AC20 which fires 90 meters, or 0.06 miles!!!!! It' is the same for all Battletech weapons! The only reason I could see is that the makers of the game wanted to make physical attacks seem reasonable at all costs!
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck 
Maj. NevLord Madman |
Cray
08/19/02 01:19 PM
64.83.29.242
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Well, a hex is 30 meters, so the 9-hex range of an Inner Sphere AC/20 is actually 270 meters, but your point is well taken.
The out of game reason is that the low range was to accomodate miniatures of a reasonable scale and have a reasonable map size. Using a 1-inch tall miniature of a 12-meter mech with a 20-mile weapon range would require a map 223 feet across. So, range was sacrified in the name of playability.
Explaining this in game is rather more difficult.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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masdog5
08/19/02 02:20 PM
205.213.145.201
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Most naval and land based artillery are usually fired at some angle around 45 degrees to get a longer range, where autocannons seem to be fired more horizontally. That could have something to do with it.
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Cray
08/19/02 02:35 PM
64.83.29.242
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>Most naval and land based artillery are usually fired at some angle around 45 degrees to get a longer range, where autocannons seem to be fired more horizontally. That could have something to do with it.
To an extent. Modern tank guns are fired almost horizontally and still manage several kilometers of range. There's also no reason for a mech with arm-mounted ACs not to be able to tip their ACs skyward and fire at 45 degrees. (Especially the Rifleman and Jagermech, which can flip their arms backwards.)
Recommendation: just know that the short ranges are making the game playable. Don't try to find an in-game explanation. Your head will explode.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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MadWolf
08/20/02 02:47 AM
134.53.144.51
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Thinking on it, to have more ammo avaible ina a round they might have changed shell lenght and for momentium the charge might have been changed. a short case with a load that favors punch rather than rage could explain it. also theres the simple thing that you would be totally unable to hit the ground with anythign out side of its range. i imagine a AC\20 would kick like a mule, so keeping it aimed whould be diffucult....sorry for spelling errors, its late and im thinking, bad combo 
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
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SoyBigHead
08/20/02 01:30 PM
68.57.148.119
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Hey the 10 mile range of the 5-8 inchers is nothing. In WWII, the 16-in. guns of the Iowa-class Battleship could reach ~23 miles...if memory serves its desired function right now that is
"There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-Mark Twain
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Countergod
08/20/02 01:36 PM
128.165.156.80
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Actually, I was using the stats on the Iowa's secondary guns. The main guns actually go out to ~30-40 miles, as evident in Desert storm (the New Jersey and one other (i forgot which one) participated in the Gulf War) I only used the 8 inch guns as a refrence point because an AC20 is, according to fluff, about an 8 inch gun, but with the range less than most hand held Machine Guns!
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman |
SoyBigHead
08/20/02 01:41 PM
68.57.148.119
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hehe maybe they use depleted uranium/tungsten rounds but with like 2/10 of a lb. of gunpowder. or whatever would need to make it only go out that short distance.
"There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-Mark Twain
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Countergod
08/20/02 02:29 PM
128.165.156.80
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An interesting thought, and I almost agreed, until a friend told me that the British muskets used in the Revolutionary war had ranges of about 200m with reasonable (+/-4 meters in any direction)! You'd think that after that much time, firearms would have developed more... 
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman |
MacLeod
08/20/02 07:26 PM
209.244.97.81
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The autocannons do use depleted uranium rounds. I found that in most of the books, including Michael Stackpole's Malicious Intent, one of the best ones.
Drugs don't kill people, pancreatic cancer kills people.
... and whoever heard of a drug that causes pancreatic cancer?
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Acolyte
08/21/02 05:07 PM
142.179.27.248
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Actually, the AC20 has a staggering 270m range . Each hex is 30m, not 10. Needless to say, this is one of the first things that I changed when I revamped the rules for my games.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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BigBoss
07/21/05 02:37 AM
24.85.77.120
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Well true the range is unrealistic, but consider weight, 5 rounds per ton for an AC/20, thats 200KG rounds, now I'm not sure about this but maybe just maybe the explosive propellant needed to get the shell out of the barrel is not enough to get it to a long range due to the heavy weight. Hope this may solve the unrealistic range problem, people that make ammo in BattleTech are incompetent lol.
Bringing Terror to the Comforts of Your Homes
~BB~
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Koniving
03/28/19 04:37 PM
173.171.201.70
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I know this thread is ancient and I'm about to dig up the dead... but this came up as a top result in a search and I thought I'd put some info in.
Though Battletechnology is no longer considered canonical, it was for over 20 years and it was written in large part by two Battletech authors and edited by the original game designers. Despite Battletechnology no longer being canonical (probably for Harmony Gold reasons and because it is pretty out of date; the original reason for PPC min range was it was heavy; at the time it was only mounted on arms) Here it was described as a giant machine gun. In the same caliber of ammunition, an AC/20 shoots 4 times as fast as an AC/5 OR at least 4 times as much in sustained fire before needing to stop. Either way, whether its recoil or the additional time necessary is what cuts the range.
It is pointed out there and that a "Round" is more like a cassette of ammunition. Think of it like a magazine.
Real life autocannons go up to 60mm usually and is generally used as anti-infantry, anti-air, etc. In Battletech, Mech Rifles are your basic tank cannons. Except those super penetrators firing sabots are very weak and easily dodged (mechs can manuever to avoid things and actively try to avoid damage when possible, except when the task is impossible [like being hit by a hailstorm of shells like that from an autocannon] or the pilot intends to take the damage [such as to protect someone or something else].
Armor in Battletech interestingly defends against very small penetrations very well, such as sabot penetrators, and yet are terrible against wide area impacts such being punched or kicked, with a kick able to do as much damage as an AC/20. As such the high explosive component of autocannons makes a fair bit of sense.
There's also this which I posted on someone's article about how we're firing pancakes.
[spoiler]
Interesting, but you're comparing apples to oranges.
When you compare two vastly different sized ammunitions and then compare the generic number, you're going to run into an issue.
Counting LBX, Light, etc...basically all autocannons...
Class 2 ranges from 20mm (30mm if just the AC/2) to 90mm (according to fluff but never seen larger than 80mm in a novel).
Class 5 ranges from 40mm to 120mm.
AC/10 ranges from 40mm to 120mm that I have seen so far (but a limit was never stated)
AC/20 ranges from 40mm (Pontiac 100 the famous 100 shot AC/20) to 203mm (if you restrict to IS sizes, 185mm is your high end.)
But before I continue, lets compare Rifles.
Light Rifle has the shortest range
Heavy Rifle at 8 tons has the longest range and a terrible shot count. The only fluffed example is the 190mm on the Arbiter and that's in the novel not the TRO.
Why Rifles? Because Rifles are based on your traditional tank shell. They lob about one or two shots per "round."
(A round for an autocannon/machine gun as defined is a cassette (magazine if you will) of ammunition which when fired off will net approximately the rated damage.) (Afterall, nobody's ever talked about how "1" machine gun bullet can do 2 damage... because its common knowledge that it isn't how MGs work. So why does everyone question Battletech's "giant machine guns" based on anti-aircraft weaponry?)
Ignoring the Pontiac series (its all 40mm), lets just compare the heaviest common caliber amongst the AC/5-20, "12cm" as we frequently see it in some of the novels or 120mm.
First, we have the GM Whirlwind/5. Its commonly accepted that it is either rated to fire 3-4 shells per second or that it flat out requires 3 shells to net 5 damage. Lets go with the second one as it gives us damage. 1.67 (shorthand rounding).
As such, 3 shells = 5 damage.
AC/10s of the same caliber can be assumed to fire twice as fast as the AC/5, or at least twice as much. Thus 6 shells = 10 damage... but accurate range for firing faster OR longer is cut.
AC/20s of the same caliber can therefore be assumed to fire four times as fast as the AC/5 or be able to sustain fire for 4 times as long. Either way, accurate range to land all the shells in the same area is cut to 270. Here we have 12 shells = 20 damage.
"But what about the RAC/5?"
Welp if we assume another 120mm (though only seen 50mm examples), at the same shell size it would need to fire 3*6 = 18 shells to net 30 damage...in 5 damage lots scattered on the enemy. So accuracy to the point of the same spot is lost, but we can still net 30 damage in total. So dropping "accurate range to land all the shells in one area" we now have "accurate range to just hit something without concern as to where (say you aim center mass and it goes all over the place due to recoil), you can generically hit something spraying and praying at 630 meters.
But lets break down the ammunition. Assume all shells are the same length as well as the same diameter.
3, 6, 12, (18/6).
AC/5 = 20*3 =60 shells
AC/10 = 10*6 = 60
AC/20 = 5*12 = 60
RAC/5 = 20*3 = 60 (fired 6 times in a turn, each 'time' consumes "1", so that salvo of 18 consumes 6 rounds or 18 shells)
Huh, would you look at that.
The only outlier is the AC/2, admittedly. Technically it just falls short, so while each of these get 100 damage per ton, the AC/2 only gets 90 damage per ton.
One way to look at this, is to compare how Battletech treats empty bins, empty cargo containers, etc.
When you have space for 5 tons of cargo... it consumes 5 tons just to have the space. Then you can load it with 5 tons and you're not "five tons heavier," you're just loaded. When you unload it you don't lose 5 tons, you're just unloaded. And that 5 tons technically has its own container holding it. Now compare an ammo bin, you empty 2 bins (2 tons) of ammo, you're not dropping from 100 tons to 98, you're still considered 100 tons. Just empty. Then you load of ton of ammunition you don't gain 1 ton, you've just refilled a bin of ammo. Even then that ammo had its own container to be able to be quickly loaded into the mech within the allotted turns to do so. Considering an ammo truck with a Patron loader mech can reload 1 ton in 10 seconds, that's pretty damn fast. So it never sheds its original container to be fed into some slot to roll the ammo in, its literally eject old container and load new one in.
With this, we can therefore safely assume that part of the weight is the container and how it is safely stored to avoid colliding with one another, similar to how your UPS packages are given protection inside the container. 10 to 20% of the weight can therefore be attributed to that container and the individual cassettes themselves, meaning 80 to 90% of the weight is actually ammunition. Now when you break that down, the weights not only are comparable to real life munitions, but sometimes end up being lighter than our modern ammo. As such what an AC/2 probably has going against its ammo is more weight dedicated to individual cassettes, considering it has 45 of them as opposed to 5-20.
Just food for thought. Though pancakes are funny.
[/spoiler]
So the long and short...
Autocannons are descendants of aircraft / anti-aircraft weaponry, from the 30mm Gau (used by aircraft) to the M242 Bushmaster (used by an APC), the BK (MLG) 27mm German naval autocannon (against air, naval and surface targets), etc.
They fire lots of bullets, because its hard to dodge a lot of bullets. As Catalyst's Battletech Battlemech Manual confirms, even a mech unable to move out of its hex is not considered immobile (and you can only "aim" shots on immobile targets/unconscious targets because mechs will try to defend/evade against firepower so long as the mech can move and the pilot is conscious; reasoning that pilot intent is required. Think of the Jigabachi on Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex season 2 when the pilot dies of a heart attack and the whole debacle that went on because he still had brain activity so the helicopter tried to defend its pilot... bit of a problem, so if the pilot isn't conscious, its not going to do anything. Makes a smart safety measure). (Their dodging/blocking is why arms are so prone to being hit when the smartest thing would be to aim for the legs or head).
The reduced range is because of increased firing time / firing rate to net the same amount of damage among common calibers.
Accurate range for the RAC drops "range to land all shells on one spot" in favor of "range to just hit something...anywhere."
"Rifles" (Light through Heavy) are descendants of tank cannons and lost their use in military forces though civilians still use them.
Rifles, as much slower firing weapons, properly increase in accurate range as the cannon gets larger, as firing "2 to 10 times faster" or "2 to 10 times as much" is not a factor negatively impacting range.
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