Requiem
05/28/19 12:38 AM
1.158.130.13
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The technological level of the IS is considered to be comparable with that of the technology we have now?
So what if two Wolf’s Dragoons were caught discussing their past on a cell phone vid-recorder-unit – this was then transferred to either the media or one of the Houses Intelligence organisations – and over time this lead to the unravelling of the Dragoon’s true origins (as people disappear from the battlefield all the time, and they could then end up in intelligence black site).
So how would the Inner Sphere’s history change if their mission as the former Star League Defence Forces – the Clans – as a reconnaissance mission became common knowledge?
OR /-
How would the Inner Sphere’s history have changed if a Dragoon decided to defect to one of the IS Great houses – and they took with them a complete database of Clan Technology / Clan History?
Depending upon who their “Client State” (employer) was and who pierced their vale of security and when it occurred could lead to a variety of different scenarios within the Inner Sphere – as well as the implications for the Clans when they attempt there is invasion, when they find an IS with a parity of weapons systems as that of the Clans.
So, would the dragoons expatriate themselves from the IS or would they, at that point in time, shift their allegiances to the IS?
For me the idea that the Dragoons were able to keep their secrets and their ship that produced Archers is hard to believe.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
05/28/19 07:01 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
How would the Inner Sphere’s history have changed if a Dragoon decided to defect to one of the IS Great houses – and they took with them a complete database of Clan Technology / Clan History?
It would've sped up the process started by the Helm Memory Core, but that wasn't an overnight revelation. The Memory Core effectively took about 25 years (3025-3050) to really deliver goods. There were military prototypes from the core by the late 3030s, But the drag on the process was the need to retool the entire supply chain - you didn't just plug blueprints into a factory and out popped Star League 'Mechs. Hence, decades.
The plus from the Dragoons is having skilled, technologically literate personnel who can speed up the process and fill in the gaps faster. You might reach TR:3050 by 3045.
On the flip side, the Dragoons' choice of House can severely cripple of hinder the Inner Sphere. The union of the Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth was generally a boon for the Inner Sphere as a whole, particularly if you don't like the Clans. The Federated Commonwealth wasn't just a military success, it greatly improved the technology and industry of about 60% of the Inner Sphere, helping out standards of living and the general level of technology.
Meanwhile, having the Dragoons settle in the Capellan Confederation won't accomplish anything useful. The Capellan leadership is too selfish to get outside help from the FWL or Combine, and too bent on making the Chancellor into the First Lord - which would lead to unproductive conflicts that only tear down the Inner Sphere. Worse, the Confederation doesn't have the depth of academia, industry, and labor to really make use of a boon of advanced technology.
The Combine is too selfish in its straightforward, brute conquest way. Telling it that the Clans are going to steamroll the Inner Sphere sometime soon isn't going to make it share the Dragoon technology. It might inspire the Combine to conquer a lot of valuable border factory worlds or permanently knock its Lyran and Suns neighbors out of the fight before the Clans arrive.
The FWL is a wildcard. Until the Lyran union, it used to be a decent trading partner with the Federated Suns. It has a parliamentary democracy that swings its opinions on foreign diplomacy wildly. It was a grudging participant in an alliance with the Combine and Confederation. As seen after the Clan invasion, its economy boomed on the Helm Memory Core's fruits (and WoB aid). The Dragoons were not happy with the FWL's civil war and deaths of key Dragoons during that, but having the Dragoons settle in the FWL *and* having the FWL make some sensible foreign diplomacy moves toward the Suns (and maybe the hated Lyrans) could produce a triumvirate much better prepared advancing the Inner Sphere and stopping the Clans. Or it could produce another civil war-type mess and squander the Dragoon's contributions.
So, if you want the most dramatic improvement from the Dragoons buddying up with the Inner Sphere c3025 then I'd recommend having them settle on the Suns or Commonwealth.
PS: What if the Dragoons selected Terra as their base of operations in 3025? A neutral center point for aiding the Inner Sphere that dethrones and cripples proto-WoB? 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
05/28/19 11:33 PM
1.158.130.13
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Thank you Cray, great read that gives me a great deal to think about.
I never considered they could have selected Terra - Though in all probability they would be stationed on Mars as many of their members could still have a Clans view of Terra. However if and when the WoB did attempt a takeover I could see them riding to the rescue of Terra.
The idea of this plus the old invasion of Terra source-book you could (with little difficulty) re-write the game slightly to provide for an interesting campaign for your game night.
so again Thanks.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
05/28/19 11:45 PM
45.43.104.179
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Define what you mean by "common knowledge" - do you mean everyone who watches a tri-vid broadcast knows it, or the upper echelons of state security forces and leadership knows.
If the common populace knows it, regardless of the state they settle in, its likely to gain a lot of attention (and fear), probably driving military build-up across the Inner Sphere and a lot more deep space recon than was going on outside of ComStar's efforts.
If its only known to those in power, then it probably depends on who knows it. If its ComStar, who has eyes and ears everywhere, then they probably try to keep it under wraps. They last thing they need is some outsider spreading advanced tech around the Inner Sphere, undoing all their Holy Shroud work. If it was a House, then I wouldn't be surprised if they wrote it off as elaborate misinformation from one of their enemies. Maybe the Combine puts two and two together and links the Dragoons' origins with the Minnesota Tribe, but its doubtful the Dragoons could confirm or deny the Minnesota Tribe as being Clans anyway. By 3005, the Wolverines, their actual escape, unit markings, and other attributes would be long forgotten (and revised) history of the Clans.
So it might need to leak to the public to work. When is also some concern. Pre- or post-Helm Memory core makes a huge difference, it may also matter who is in power at the time and what's going on in their nations. (Fourth Succession War wasn't kind to the Dracs or Cappies; the FWL is in a state of civil war during the 3030s, etc.)
But if the choice boils down to Lyran and FedSuns, go with FedSuns. The Lyrans would be more interested in the Clan's eugenics and medicine while the Suns would be more interested in the military technology (plus have a leg up with NAIS after 3016.) BattleTech is a military history, and the Clans a martial society, so the more military-minded nation probably makes more sense.
Combine before or after 3035 is an interesting thought though. Now that the DCMS has seen first hand the technology after getting ComStar stockpiles, I suspect they'd be more interested in listening to the Dragoons than they would be before. This assumes Misery did not already occur though.
Seeing Terra's defenses up close should have been a natural goal of the Dragoon mission (particularly if the SDS was working or not.) So if they settle on Terra, this gives a good explanation for how it might have come about. (They may have been able to obtain this information during Hanse and Melissa's wedding though. Jaime was there, so it stands to reason some other Dragoons could have accompanied him and done a little bit of spy work on the side.)
Some disagreements with previous post.
* Capellans had technological and academic basis to make it work. University of Sian is supposedly one of the best in the Inner Sphere. Plus they reversed engineers the principles behind ECM Suites and Active Probes to create both the Raven and the Cataphract, well before the Helm Core was released. During the Third/Fourth succession war timeframe, the Cappies introduced these two, plus the Transgressor aerospace fighter, while the entire rest of the Inner Sphere introduced the Merlin, the Hatchetman, and the Wolfhound. (I don't count the Marauder II, since that had Wolf's Dragoon's clanner fingerprints all over it, nor the Grand Dragon, since its not really "new". Also not counting prototypes like Liberator, Super Griffin, Super Wasp, Cheetah II, and Starfire.) That's three cornerstones of the CCAF during technological decline, versus three for everybody else. Without the Helm Memory Core, the Capellans have certainly shown the greatest ability to make the most of what the Dragoons could teach them about clan military manufacturing. Maybe other states have higher ceilings, but the Caps could probably understand it and bring it to the battlefield quicker.
* Actually, canon is rife with "discover Star League-era blueprints and start producing unit right away" types of comments in TROs. Even during the Third/Fourth Succession War timeframe, the Exterminator is such an example (and yet another Capellan achievement at that.)
* The ComStar schism that created an independent WOB didn't occur until Tukayyid in 3052, which is about the peak period of FWLM exports to the FedCom and Combine to supplement their losses. After Tukayyid and the 15 year peace, the FedCom and Combine can take a breather and slow down imports from the League. The Helm Memory core was much more valuable to the FWL economy than the WOB. The WOB did buy a lot of stuff after sales to AFFC and DCMS withered, but this is more a matter of continuing the economic high than the initial inflation.
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ghostrider
05/28/19 11:51 PM
66.74.60.165
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There were military prototypes from the core by the late 3030s, But the drag on the process was the need to retool the entire supply chain - you didn't just plug blueprints into a factory and out popped Star League 'Mechs. Hence, decades.
What about all those pieces stored away that were working League tech? Wouldn't those have sped up the process?
Also, some of the fluff suggests they did just plug in some things and out came a mech design. To work the bugs out might be the issue.
There were some people that were employed by the Dragoons that did break with the unit. And after the last run to clan space, they hired a lot of IS people. They would have to be trained on how to do things, such as techs working on upgraded materials when they went to full clan tech. Blackwell industries had to have some insight on higher level tech, as the Dragoons used them to make the Plainsman hovertank. A modular unit with several snap together variants, ie omni tech.
The idea of someone learning their true intent at first would have been easier then the writers suggest. Any one talking near Comstar equipment should have been recorded as a matter of routine. Learn all the secrets you can without risking lives. All electronic. Though when the game came out, I don't think this was a good topic to discuss.
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Requiem
05/29/19 11:04 PM
1.158.130.13
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I agree that when the information breaks, who breaks the Dragoon’s security shield and who are the Dragoon’s current employers are at the time will determine the outcome and their actions.
Determining all Alt. Histories in this case would be extremely complex to determine based upon all of the different permutations / conflicting hypothetical situations.
From day one on-wards every House Intelligence agency and every media agency would be asking the same thing and assigning their agents / reporters to answer the big questions – who are they really?; Where do they come from?; How do they have access to unique ‘Mech designs as well as an Hephaestus Station, a mobile space station with a BattleMech assembly line for the Dragoon’s exclusive ARC-2W Archer?.
At the same time they all trying to penetrate the dragoon Intelligence Shield I am surprised that more raids by House Special Forces and Large Companies with access to The best mercenaries money could purchase were not used to acquire their Hephaestus Station.
Thus the end result is thus personal preference or based upon the balance of probability.
For me the four main candidates for who / when their veil could be pierced is …
First, Thelos Auburn – House Steiner’s family historian and author of numerous historical works.
The situation – researching information for his new work Thelos stumbles upon an arcane piece of information, thought lost to the Inner Sphere, that shows the Dragoons are linked to the Star League Defense force that departed the Inner Sphere with Kerensky.
Or/-
During the Free Worlds League forces staged the retaliation raid against Snord’s museum on 14 Feb 3017 he is witness to / discovers a document that not only links the Snord to the Dragoons but also links the Dragoons to Kerensky’s SLDF exodus fleet.
Second, during their contract with the Draconis Combine – their liaison officer, Minobu Tetsuhara, comes to learn of their origins and as a loyal Samurai he informs his Lord of what he has discovered.
Or/-
During the Battle on Misery – DCMS forces capture Dragoon personnel and are sent to a Black Site.
Subsequently the DCMS learn of their hidden origins.
Third, ComStar – with access to ComStar’s vast hidden library they order an investigation into the Dragoons origins etc. Subsequently a lone researcher in the wee hours of the morning stumbles upon information that links the Dragoons to Kerensky’s exodus SLDF. Further investigation is ordered …. political machinations begin ….
And lastly the Hephaestus station itself – if it could had been taken and then fully investigated at a safe and hidden world off all the maps who knows what could have been found – such as a former Clan free-birth who smuggled a last message from their family and friends back within the Clan Space – innocent at first glance but who knows what hidden information it could have contained or could be seen in the background ….
Thus it is up to the individual to determine their own story and the repercussions of the information found.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/30/19 01:15 AM
66.74.60.165
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Any type of DNA still left from Alexander Kerensky, would show Natasha as a descendant of his. That alone would cause issues with the Dragoons.
Some of the mechs would do that as well, since some were lost during the exodus and such. Not sure how many bases in the periphery, or even on IS worlds would have had some of the more rare versions. And unseen mechs? Yeah.
The Comstar idea has some things that need to be gone over. First off, is how they get around the HPG network regularly. The Dragoons only had so many jumpships. And with this, I would expect the station to have some sort of homing beacon that would broadcast it's position to only a few frequencies, maybe even deploying an HPG itself.
But with them being in the IS for so long, some of the freeborns that were in the unit, would have talked or tried to leave, once they realize just how piss poor the elite trueborn leadership is.
And this is different from the homes worlds, so avoid that argument.
It isn't impossible to have jumpships and dropships get near enough to the station to learn of it's advanced tech. I would think the better Warships armor was used, as well as some odd materials. And being modular, to they can jump it should be a red flag.
On a side note, canon said most people think they found a League cache, but drained it on their second run. But when they first got here, they should have had problems dealing with tactics not used in the clans for ages. Even with the tapes and such that was still there.
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Requiem
05/30/19 07:48 AM
1.158.130.13
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Who would look for a DNA match between Natacha and Alexander? I would assume there would be a reason (pretext) as to why security forces would compare it – I would also assume that ComStar might be the only one remaining who still has this information. Though it is not beyond the realm of possibility that other Houses may still have this information also.
As for the Dragoons getting around ComStar – for me they have advanced Black Box HPG Tech. or they have their own HPG upon a hidden Jumpship that no one has seen.
As for the station having a homing beacon – to track it they would have to be in range of the HPG for this to work – if it is hidden as far away as possible the chances of finding the station are one again very remote – especially if the entire Dragoons are distracted due to a protracted war / war of vengeance with the DC.
Yes I agree many of the Free-born would have defected to the IS – to believe this did not occur is again quite unrealistic – as is the belief wolf net were able to silence all of the renegades. So, where are the political commissars (refer Russia WW2) to keep the free-born in line?
There are just too many Red Flags to think the Dragoons could keep all of their secrets up to the Clan’s Invasion.
As for the issue they found everything and just decided to enter into the IS – then consider how professional their mercenary military acted / their advanced tactics used – How does someone from the deep periphery form one of the most elite units yet seen and then decide they can earn some money in the IS? Who trained them – how did their unit cohesion within battle become so tight? As you would have thought that a tight cohesive unit is formed through war, so who were they fighting?
What also could have been asked if they are such a great, and large, military unit – are they running away from anyone and if so who? This question also should have been considered by the Great Houses Intelligence divisions – as all questions no matter how imbecilic should have been considered and an answer formulated and backed up with definitive proof one way or another.
If not fighting someone then who are they running from?
How convinced can you be that a Periphery unit of such size and rare equipment could just materialize one day and not question them as to all aspects of their story.
If I was the Clans I would have considered more smaller one Battalion sized units - smaller less conspicuous - reconnaissance units .....? Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/30/19 08:29 PM)
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ghostrider
05/30/19 11:07 PM
66.74.60.165
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As the League built the HPG network, I would assume the newer stations used old coding, with new put on top of it. With that said, the Dragoons, being part of the clans, may well have the old back door codes to get into Comstar. So using Comstars own HPG network could be how they could find it. And the Clans should have a complete list of all IS worlds the League found. I say should, as the argument that it was destroyed during the civil war is possible.
Natasha used the Kerensky name, and there was enough DNA, from wounds and such, to compare it to any DNA left over from Alexander.
This means any memorabilia, such as bandages used to bind Alexanders wounds, may well have the DNA for the Kerensky line.
How does someone from the deep periphery form one of the most elite units yet seen and then decide they can earn some money in the IS?
It may well be single warriors that fled from their unit destruction, and was able to change their identities, that could allow this. But the fact the clan training would still show in the way they fight, at first. Then again, the idea of them being part of the Minnesota Tribe could be used. They failed to live in the deep periphery, and returned to get their units left behind as they had to abandon it for room on the still functioning ships.
If I was the Clans I would have considered more smaller one Battalion sized units - smaller less conspicuous - reconnaissance units .....?
Consider it for what? The clan had the scout ships they could use to do so from space.
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Requiem
05/31/19 02:27 AM
1.158.130.13
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Yes, the Dragoons may have the codes to get into the HPG Net – however they will still need a HPG either on the Ground or in Space to initiate the message from them to the “black net” of ComStar’s HPG net … and then there is the issue of how the Clans receive the message from the IS HPG net – they would still need someone who’s able to receive and read it and then encrypt it and send it off into Clan Space for all the Khans and the sa-Khans.
Yes I agree Natasha as a warrior would leave many bandages behind in her wake – however why would you take that information and scan I against a DNA record bank that included Alexander’s DNA? There needs to be a pretext for the military / state intelligence apparatus to actually run it through the DNA record bank.
However, I could believe that like many current DNA agencies today you are able to send in your DNA for testing to see where your ancestors came from – So in the future I could see a company that runs DNA not only against where you came from but also from famous individuals (including Alexander) for a price to determine where you come from and your closeness to famous people, for a price – so as a birthday present I could see an IS friend of Natasha’s sending in her DNA for testing – and what you get is a familiar relationship match with Alexander – Bells and Whistles ring …. Intelligence organisation gets involved (as they use it to find love children of the rich and famous) …. Do we have a believable story here?
Sorry …. But people fleeing their unit destruction do not show a unit cohesion as that of the Dragoons when they first entered service … they are showing an elite level of operational cohesion for all of their units … this in only achievable with a heavy amount of drilling / combat over a long period of time. And then where is the evidence of battlefield damage? They are all fixed …. Even in the periphery there should have been shortfalls in stock to fix their ,Mechs ….
May-bee they could have been the Minnesota tribe …. But then wouldn’t it be Wolverine’s Dragoons?
Sorry no the size and the complexity of their assets screams former SLDF – it is just the proof that is missing …. Red Flag ……..and yet nothing?
As for the smaller sized units …. What was the overall mission of the Dragoons – reconnaissance – this can only occur if you are hidden from view, thus many small units, whereas one huge unit the size of the Dragoons is very visible (too visible) and attracts the unwanted attention of not only every Houses Intelligence Unit; it also brings down on them every major news corporation and their investigative reporters; it also brings down on them every major armaments corporation who want to “acquire” their mobile space station / Archer manufacturer for their own benefit.
Way too much heat …. Too many red flags …. In comparison, if you had half – to a dozen small battalion units who could roam the IS with impunity, would anyone take notice of them? When you compare it to the Dragoons … they painted a very large bulls-eye on them from the get go don’t you think?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
05/31/19 06:01 AM
1.158.130.13
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I believe that the Dragoons as introduced by FASA are not the same as those purportedly to be the reconnaissance unit for the Clans.
As the “Clans” as provided by the canon history are not the same as those originally dream-pt up by FASA what was provided was something completely different.
For me it is apples and oranges …..
So all I can do is hypothesize as to the “truth” behind the Dragoons and that of their “country” of origin ….
The Minnesota tribe was the first unit to escape what was becoming an unlivable environment – they somehow recognized the “environmental” issues and were able to escape early on.
It took many years before the remaining people recognized the truth.
To this end the Dragoons are a reconnaissance unit but not as originally postulated. As Kerensky’s exodus SLDF did not prosper when they found their new worlds, far from it, due to some natural / unnatural disaster that is slowly depleting their population they are seeking a suitable entry point for their return. And as such the current government dispatched them back into the IS with one mission – to assess each House or Houses as to the possibility of providing their technological advantages in exchange for a realm of their own, that is carved out of one or more of the existing Houses existing territory.
However, the original time limit remaining before total collapse was in error, political instability became rife the government that sent the Dragoons has fallen to a coup – and a new ultra - right / left wing government or military government has seized control based upon fear of the “disaster” that is befalling them and the promise of saving the people. To this end this new government has implemented a dangerous plan.
Rather than giving the Dragoons time to analyse the situation and provide an answer as to which Great House would be the most responsive to their request in asking for assistance and worlds of their own to colonize in a spirit of esprit de corps / mutual assistance – ie. two estranged family members helping each other out after many years being separated.
This new government / military government however has decided to, based upon a belief of fear … of being rejected and slowly dying alone in the depths of space, has decided to invade and take their new home worlds by force.
Thus the entire former Kerensky exodus fleet will over time descend upon the IS to execute a total invasion – and establish their own realm and abandoning forever the worlds they once called home.
Fist will come the military invasion – once the realm has been successfully acquired it will be followed by their civilians who will colonize the worlds and establish their new realm.
The size of the military - large enough to damage three of the Major Houses - rather than the separate Clans as given by the canon history - there is only one unified enemy force (though there could still be a small group of people who believe that diplomacy rather than force should have been used).
Thus once in they are never leaving ......
As for their society, originally akin to the Star League, however over time it has morphed into something akin to a police state due to the "environmental" issue plaguing them - emergency measures were required to keep the people safe, however over time these measures became permanent which resulted in a permanent police state.
The idea of having multiple "Clans" that operate as separate de facto entities (and who also war amongst themselves) within the whole of the clans is something developed post FASA in my opinion - in all reality there should be only one government with two different political sides - the police state and the democratic. The idea of so many clans was proposed because of the idea Battletech needed to double / triple its original number of combatants to ensure another FC issue never occurred again.
In reality how can you carve one people into so many small groups -who all engage in war against each other - and expect them to live and prosper - it is just not rational to think the idea of the "Clans" would work - has any government of two or more groups who have their own military who fight against each other survived for long? The only historical example is that of the Greek City States.
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/31/19 07:41 PM)
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ghostrider
05/31/19 11:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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First, remote access, ie internet, could contact the HPG and send information thru while wiping all records of it. Viruses of today do that.
DNA being run without a cause. This is how the Davions found out that Thomas Marik wasn't Thomas Marik. The scientist ran that DNA against Joshua and Isis, to find that out. NO orders given. So I can imagine someone would do so without any orders, or even against orders. You are talking about a Kerensky. Granted, there may have been some in the IS, but the history doesn't say so.
In canon history, the Dragoons were foretold to defect into the IS once they got away from the clans long enough. The only one to respond to the recall was the only blood named person in the unit. Natasha.
But this was living in the IS, not just stories told to get you to resist the warriors. But as Mechwarrior Trent of the Jaguars showed, even the warriors would defect, if they could be show the reason. I just don't think it would help stop the clans initial push into the IS. Maybe after 3090 or so, it may have started.
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Requiem
06/01/19 05:53 AM
1.158.130.13
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Remote access, don’t you think people will begin asking questions and investigating the Operating Program of the HPG when the Dish turns on its own to an obscure direction aimed into the Deep Periphery and an unknown data package is sent - and using the maximum amount of power to make sure the message is received by an unknown entity?
Viruses - what about anti-virus programs – what if they have placed in a new system that prints out all directives etc etc. viruses are only as good as when you understand what they are intended for – if there is an unknown then what?
When the First Circuit is informed and this happens on numerous occasions I would believe a thorough data dump is ordered and someone will go through the code line by line – and what do you think they will find if and when they follow it back to It back to its source, then what?
And when they send a ComStar Warship to investigate where the message was sent to, what do you think they will find? as they will know where the dish was pointed to, they could have just written it down from the control screen.
As for Thomas Marik – they were looking for Thomas Marik DNA! – thay had an idea as to what was going on and they used that as a clue to hunt down the DNA.
They are not hunting for DNA from a person who disappeared hundreds of years in the past
I think these are two completely different scenarios.
If there is an alternate Kerensky line (just the same as Phelan’s) within the IS then how would the Clans react when it became known that a direct decedent family with the same DNA as Kerensky exist. Would they order them to be retrieved and returned to Clan Space for re-education or wiped out as an aberration Kerensky Line?
So only Natasha returned and Trent defected?
Sorry but this should be indicative of a winder problem and a problem that the game developers completely ignored – if there are defectors – how many from each clan? – what were their skill set? – could they have assisted the IS with further penetrating Clan Security and assist with anti-Clan activities?
Look at the spies throughout history and what they achieved – Manhattan and the Atomic bomb – America / England during the Cold war and who knows how many others that we will never know about. So the damage is done from the first defection which could have occurred during the first wave – it is just a matter of time as to what damage will be evident, thus the cannon story is again lacking in any depth on this point.
And then what about the PsyOps teams what damage could these IS teams reap against the Clans – when you consider how far psychology and propaganda has progressed from WW1’s blatant to WW2 (Have a look at Disney’s short films that were made during WW2) and beyond it would be hard to imagine how good they would be by 3025.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/01/19 02:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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Look at the FWL for an example of your PsyOps. Davion was keeping resentment stirred up against the Mariks. It is odd that you have not used this to point out that it was in the game already. But then those have alot of examples of different ways of living bombarding them thru holovision and such. Not that the nearest planet is under the same brutal leadership as yours.
The HPG would not change the positioning of the dish, but send out the message and have it sent along other routes to reach their destination. Even storing it on jumpships heading that way. I don't remember which house did so, but Comstar found out one house did use the estimated packet size to send short coded messages in the canon line. Why is it so hard to believe those with access to the original coding would not be able to send a coded message?
The DNA was not looking for Thomas's DNA. They were cross typing blood samples to find out if they could be used to help Joshua's issue. Or maybe some transplant potential. They had DNA from the ruling FWL to begin with.
And given how hard you are trying to say the alt is perfect and needed, do you think others would not apply this to proving Natasha as a fake? Or that the Kerensky line was still alive?
Defectors work in both directions. But for clansmen leaving the clans, Ulric would be considered one, as he fought against the others to stop the invasion, and hoped Focht was able to find the clans weakness to help stop the crusaders from destroying the IS. It could also be applied to any and all warriors that became bondsmen. Death before dishonor concept.
So only Natasha returned and Trent defected? These were two important ones that were specifically named in the canon lore. Kai Liao Allard helped Tamus Malthus to defeat comstar during operation Scorpion, which helped the Falcons. Is this a betrayal?
And the spies goes back to the question, how the hell was Wolfnet so skilled in their operations, as the clans did not have any real active experience with that? Intel other houses couldn't get, they did.
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Requiem
06/01/19 09:31 PM
1.158.130.13
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Can you please elucidate on the PsyOps – Davion / Marik, thanks.
At the end the HPG message has to go into the Deep Periphery – so how does it get there without a final HPG dish turning and sending the information package?
As for jump-ships – was this not during the interdiction?
And the packet sized coded messages – were these not for the “Black Box” HPG machines?
Yes, I agree that if you have the codes you could possibly send a message – However what fingerprints are left behind if you use ComStar’s HPG grid to send the message, this is what I am concerned about – the Dragoons could possibly use ComStar’s Grid but there is no way I can see that they can effectively use it without leaving clues that they have done so at one point or another.
The only effective and safe means of communication is a pony express system by utilizing a jump-ship(s) for that express purpose until the information reaches the Deep Periphery – from then on I would have assumed that a HPG relay system would have been erected by using mobile space stations that each have two dishes, one for receiving and the other for transmitting – thus reducing the lag time of the message to the time it takes to get the message into the Deep Periphery via Jump-Ship.
Even with cross typing the tissue the fake and the real Thomas would have known it would come out as a negative match – thus they knew this would expose their gambit to the Davions who could then use this information to start a civil war in the future concerning the legitimacy of Thomas’s son. So why send him unless there are doctored medical records and samples that ensure his legitimacy is held to be true.
It is only when the veil is lifted, the realisation that the samples are false, via a complete and accurate DNA identification scan can the medical information be proven to be false and we see the child’s legitimacy to be untrue – thus the person on the Marik throne is also an imposter.
Yes defectors work in both directions – we see this with Ramerez from the 1st Summerset Strikers, when he believes he is joining the SLDF, however what we don’t see is a couple of years down the track when he realises that the Clans are not the SLDF – they have morphed into something akin to a fascist police state that stratifies a person’s worth due to their DNA and their caste within the Clan – I wonder how he would react when he sees his true worth as he gets older and is sent to a Solhama unit? As for others joining, yes I concede this is possible – just as you had defectors during the Cold War – but I still say how many would live to regret their actions? And how many don’t because they rise to position of authority (only Phelan) and frankly they don’t care about their helots (again Phelan).
As for IS bondsman – how many willingly accepted this? Remember during the TV show for the 1st Summerset Strikers when they went to the Falcon’s Re-Education Camp for captured IS warriors?
Phelan is the only IS born individual who truly embraces the Clan way of life because it suits his Spartan philosophy / way of life and because it provides him with the ability to rise to a position of power and his experience within the Clans is vastly different to that of everyone else, and at the same time he did find love. Also it is quite clear he adopted the Clan’s war of life as to not caring about anyone beneath his social status – those of a different caste were not his equal – as he never introduced any reforms to empower those of different Castes. However, if he didn’t rise to power, and he did go through a re-education camp, I wonder how his feeling would have been to the Clans and their way of life? I also wonder why his father didn’t discuss with him the caste system with his Wolf Clan in exile – coming from Heimdall (the loyal opposition – who attempt to preserve the peoples liberties against the excesses of Loki and the state) his lack of action on this point must have been a bitter disappointment for his father?
Again with regards to the Dragoons Wolfnet and the Clans Wolfnet we have apple and oranges – the Wolfnet set up by FASA and that by Wizkids – this is a further example / proof as to the changes made by one group of developers and the second group of developers when the game’s rights were transferred to a second organisation – it can then be assumed that they put their view on many of the issues without really thinking through the implications of their changes (thus we ended up with too many plot holes).
What also was missing from the story was the idea of Special forces / Commando units – sabotage – and assassination units – the Clan’s sanitised version of war makes them completely ill prepared for this, it also shows the idea of the Clans reaction to “Total War” was completely ignored – how could the Clans fight in a “Total War” scenario?
Bad script writing from the get go!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/02/19 12:24 AM
66.74.60.165
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Davion was supporting, if not instigating, the providences hatred towards the Mariks. This came out while the fourth war interdiction removed the funding for those antagonists, while started dropping before Steiner started funding them. That very operation was giving the populace information, that may or may not have been true, to formant civil unrest. Isn't that what the PsyOps were supposed to do? Or did I miss something here.
Simple having a ship or two, maybe even a transportation company on retainer to bring that to a specific area in the periphery. Then another ship would pick it up, or drop off more to be returned. I am not saying it would be instantaneous, but it could be done. They supposedly returned to the clan home worlds to file their first report. And without knowing the full TO&E of the Dragoons, they may well have had a few extra jumpships to do so. Even a pair of Bugeye warships could have been used. I know there hasn't been any indication there was in canon, but then they still haven't revealed everything that went on.
Reread the books dealing with that time frame. They had the DNA of all the leaders taken at the time of the big meeting on the clans. This is where they found out the DNA of Isis, didn't match Joshua. Isis matched Thomas's blood samples retrieved from the FWL, yet it didn't match Joshua's. Different mothers, so no match at all.
Then the whole thing with everything doesn't mean anything, as FASA set it up. Everything is completely wrong and should be ignored. To my knowledge, the company that owns the game changed, but some of the original developers worked for all of them including the new company. But if you are building the alt, then there isn't much point to say the canon is wrong. You have your alt, and nothing that happens will affect it.
Bad script writing from the get go! This starts at rules being changed as it had some issues from the start. Again. They really didn't seem to have the idea of it getting a life of it's own, so the entire information about the Star League seemed to be forced into position. Some of the information in the original house books contradicted others.
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Requiem
06/02/19 02:28 AM
1.158.130.13
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Yes I would agree, one of the goals of a PsyOps team would be to incite civil disobedience – provide antagonists with a forum to destabilize the government etc.
The transportation of information from the Dragoons to the Deep periphery did occur upon a set timetable, I could thus concur that a single Jump-ship (or even an unknown Bugeye) could have been used for the transfer of this accumulated information to the Deep Periphery for their rendezvous.
The collection of DNA from all the leaders was taken by the Dragoons during the Dragoons confessional meeting (3051) with all the Heads of state – why they would have allowed this is beyond me – but writers fiat goes along way. So the DNA information was held only by the Dragoons.
Sorry, no, this is not where they worked out there was no relationship between Isis and Joshua – this occurred when Joshua was in a FS Hospital just prior to the war between the FS and the FWL / CC – when Victor was accused of substituting a double for Joshua – as the real Joshua had died (20 May 3057) and Victor wanted it kept a secret – However it backfired on him and Katherine succeeded the LA from the FC ….
To discover information from DNA there needs to a pretext as to the issue and there also need to be some idea as to what is believed there will be found when the DNA evidence has been analysed and compared against what is expected to be the control group (siblings, parents, ancestors etc.) thus providing an answer.
Sorry but I beg to differ – when an in-depth analysis of the Dragoons throughout their tenure within the IS is completed and it is compared against the social norms of the future Clans you have two completely different societal characteristics. This indicates a tectonic shift in policy between the former and the latter as to their origins - from the original owners to the subsequent owners.
That is when the subsequent owners established the Clans they completely disregarded the former original and replaced it with their own belief pattern, in so doing it could also be argued that they also need not extensively beta test their new product (as it seems to me it was rushed to finalisation – weapons rues of war etc.) and then the history to which they were insinuating upon the IS – they just rammed it in without a by you leave – and produced a second rate story - that is, in my opinion, a complete and utter joke as it is lacking in any subtlety, accuracy (where did the black boxes go to?), historical validity, cultural understanding (DC Turtle Bay response), tactics / strategy, military understanding as response to a threat (New anti-clan units with omni weapons systems), the idea of a sibko education Vs. academy education (graduate numbers – depletion rates Vs. replacement personnet), the understanding of a Total War (even from an economic point of view), Attrition Warfare, SOE (Commando and partisan) warfare (within the Clan occupation Zone), Naval Warfare, submarine / anti supply fleet warfare (within the Deep Periphery), PsyOps Warfare, understanding politics (common goal to win – this does not mean win against one Clan it means to wing against ALL CLANS) …. Do I need to go on?
Yes I agree there are many instances where information within one House book was not included in another Book – and there are instances where it gets fuzzy.
However the script writing refers to the story arc (history) itself.
Reading the history as is I am provided with a one dimensional story – it needs more substance in my opinion – as is it is almost completely from the point of view of the ‘Mech Warrior – this needs fixing so that the game can take to point of view of everyone.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/02/19 03:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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The Dragoon meeting lead to Joshua being sent to New Avalon, to the NAIS. That is where they got further samples and did the comparison. Not at the Dragoon meeting. But it was set up there..
As the FWL found out that Victor replaced Joshua, the instance where HANSE found out Thomas Marik wasn't the real one is in question. That was done during the clan invasion.
To discover information from DNA there needs to a pretext as to the issue.
Why couldn't I say, I was a relative of Kerensky, and sent in the DNA to find out? A lot of people today do that thru various companies. Anyone with a sample could send it in. I could say I am related to the old Egyptian rulers, and send in that DNA to find out. I'm not, but it is an example. I don't see why they wouldn't have things like that in the future. The only issue I could really see with this is getting a good copy of his DNA. Computer records or real DNA. Then again, finding out that Natasha had no records on file would raise some flags. I would think ALL the houses would have run something like this, once they got ahold of any of the Dragoon's DNA samples. Part of why burning the people left behind in raids is required. They do that sort of testing.
Until the IS could have found the clans bases and such, Total warfare would be the worse thing for them. There is really nothing to stop the warship bombardments from wiping out all industry needed to even look for them. It would take some time to get to the Concordat area of the IS, but they could do it. Wipe out everything dealing with space travel as they go. That stops your ability to even get out of a system.
Would the clans do so? Probably not. Sending a strike force against the house leaders with the intention of a full burn of the world. That may be within the head hunting rules. I'm not quite sure.
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Requiem
06/02/19 07:38 PM
1.158.130.13
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Joshua’s admittance was due to a deal between Hanse Davion and the fake Thomas Marik in exchange for refit packages to battle the Clans.
Upon DNA confirmation of Joshua’s and The fake Thomas’ DNA Victor should have, rather than pursued a tactic of political stability, he should have used the information as leverage for political stability by informing the fake Thomas he knew he was an imposter.
With Joshua dead – a marriage between Victor and Isis (as the only daughter to the real Thomas) is a real possibility – the FWL and the FS to be amalgamated upon the death of the fake Thomas ….
No pretext for Katherine succeeding the Lyran half of the FC …..
Game developer’s fiat once more?
Please re-read my post above dated 05/31/19 –regarding Commercial DNA testing for Earth Historical Nationality and Famous Familial Relationships.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Total Warfare is the most advantageous strategy for the IS.
With Total War the IS has access to
Military and Economic stimulus – the ability to produce an exponentially amount more – weapons etc. – force through Navy production order etc. Mass produce “Black Box” HPG Technology etc.;
Access to conscription;
Redefining of tactics and weapons – Jumpships and Nuclear weapons (anti warship strategy – consider the number of Jumpships each Clan had with them, this was a minimal number once gone they are stranded) – with more very fast vehicles with high ordinance weapons – Hover / VTOL with Ultra AC/20 – IS can start war of attrition – IS can mass produce Anti-elemental Assault Sniper Rifle program – mass produce, then distribute not only to commando units but also to partisan groups;
Then there is the issue of WMDs – the IS would have far more nukes than the Clan’s have Warships – so yes the IS can be damaged by the Clan’s Warships however I contend over time they will he hunted down to extinction via nuclear attack;
Also there is no way the number of Sibko graduates can equal the number of graduate Cadets from Academies – over time the Clan’s loss depletion will be in excess of their replacement personnel – shrinkage begins;
As for finding bases is this not why I argued for the Fenris teams in the Deep Periphery? – with Captured Clan Vessels they can begin to backtrack …..
And as for reaching Concordat space – sorry I do not believe that would ever happen – they are not strong enough.
And as for Head Hunting – two can play at that game especially when every world is issued with Tac. Nukes for first strike options – for this would be quite a reality after stockpiling them since the First Succession War. So a Jihad on steroids scenario eventuates …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
06/06/19 08:28 PM
45.43.104.179
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I don't think DNA testing would be reliable over many intervening generations. You couldn't reliably determine if you were related to Egyptian pharaohs because too many generations (~200) have diluted the strength of signal, for lack of a better term. Its difficult to prove that even today with medieval royalty (~15-20 generations). I suspect too many generations would pass between Aleksandr and Natasha to prove the same (also 15-20 generations given faster rate of Clan eugenics program.)
You could certainly use it to prove Joshua and "Thomas" Marik are illegitimate though. However, I suspect DNA testing is considered "unreliable" or "too easy to fake" by the 31st century, or else it would be no great secret that Focht is Frederick Steiner and whether or not Devlin Stone is actually Arthur Steiner-Davion. These are significant personalities whose authentic DNA records presumably would have been made in their youths (unlike 99.9999% of Inner Sphere citizens who just don't matter.) Even for the Clans DNA testing must present a problem, or else they wouldn't need codices injected into their bodies to provide genetic legacy identifiers.
Of course, the simple answer is just that reliable DNA testing was not envisioned by FASA in the late 80s/early 90s, just like the internet wasn't. The authors kind of backdoored it into the story as a means to reveal Thomas and Isis weren't closely related, but then forgot about this in regards to how to keep Focht and Stone's identities secret.
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ghostrider
06/07/19 01:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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Wick. DNA manipulation is part of the clans sibko program. It states in a few books, they have to clear up issues as alot of the blood name houses tended to use just certain DNA for their warriors.
In the one book, Focht tells Phelan about it when Rana is caught with Vlad. It is suggested reading if you want to find out more.
I do agree that current DNA testing isn't as good to detect something from a thousand years ago, but in the game, they use DNA testing to find out who the dead are.
Barring someone messing with the results, the game suggests it is very accurate.
And the last statement of FASA not realizing what was coming up in the future could be said about most, if not all of the things that are missing or wrong in the game. Drones being a big ooops. Ranges being one as well.
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Cray
06/07/19 05:45 PM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
The technological level of the IS is considered to be comparable with that of the technology we have now?
A Time of War page 365 specifically calls BattleTech's technology "the future of the 1980s."
BattleTech is the future of the 1980s, and has been kept so
deliberately. This universe is about human drama and “giant,
stompy robots” (to quote a Time of War writer who shall remain
nameless). BattleTech is not a world of nanotech, AIs, gravity
control and genetic engineering; the miracles of the future
envisaged in the 1990s and 2000s are generally absent, underdeveloped
or treated as tabloid rumors because they do not fit
the setting. BattleTech does have some miraculous technologies,
like its fusion rockets, Kearny-Fuchida drives, BattleMechs and
nigh-magical materials, but these are the (mostly) minimum
needed to make stories of latter-day knights in BattleMechs
possible without losing the story line in a deluge of teleportation,
nanotech cornucopias and virtual realities.
To that end, if players need to determine the capabilities of
technology not addressed in the rules (such as the features of
personal civilian communicators, what we’d call cell phones),
it would be would not be far wrong to stop at the real-world
capabilities of technology in the mid-1990s and apply 31st century
trimmings like holograms, superficially faster microelectronics
and futuristic styling. The mid-1990s is a convenient cut-off date
to avoid the high technologies that BattleTech has not broadly
incorporated into its setting.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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