Requiem
06/02/19 11:12 PM
1.158.130.13
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Where the Clan Invasion really falls down is when the Clans have access to Warships and the Inner Sphere has no comparable warships of their own.
So how should this have been rectified …
Either the game developers had re-introduced warships to the IS years prior and allowed a comparable numbers of warships with that of the Clans to enable a Navy War.
They could have introduced Drop-ships that were retrofitted with naval weapons as a stopgap, thus giving the IS time to mass produce warships.
ComStar’s ability to mass produce warships could have become common knowledge to the great houses – thus ComStar was forced by the Great Houses to supply them with the materials to mass produce them.
However with the Turtle Bay incident there is only one option available to the Military leadership of the DC, (Refer Gen. Tojo WW2 he is the closest we have to Takashi Kurita), Kamikaze with nuclear ordinance.
So how does a Total War with nuclear weapons get curtailed at this point….
With an emergency meeting called by all the Khans and the Sa-Khans – politically blaming the Crusader Jaguars for the situation they have placed the invasion fleet in - thus placing them in a bind - the Wardens propose a plan to stop the use of IS WMDs throughout the Invasion corridor.
Historical Note: The Ares Conventions were a treaty signed in New Olympia on the planet Ares during the Age of War, aiming to reduce the loss of civilian life by establishing a code of conduct during warfare.
To that end a truce is called by the Clans through either ComStar or Wolfs Dragoons …. Thus we enter a period of time called the Phony War (Refer to WW2 re: this) … hostilities cease and all sides leaders or proxies, both IS and Clan, arrive on an independent world to discuss the ongoing use of WMDs on both sides – Nuclear Ordinance and Orbital bombardment. The second Ares Convention begins ….
The Inner Sphere agreed to honour the original Ares convention Article I if Article VII was included and an amended Article II was ratified by all the Clans
Article I – forbade the use of nuclear weapons against all civilian targets and planets and military targets within 75,000 Kilometres of a planet
Amended Article II – forbade the use of orbital bombardment against any planet / moon etc.
To this end Article VII was introduced to strengthen Article II …
Article VII – forbade the use of any warship naval and capitol weapons against any target within 75,000 kilometres of a planet.
Following the announcement of the Conventions the signing took place and a resumption of hostilities
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/02/19 11:18 PM)
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ghostrider
06/03/19 12:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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Probably going to side track this a little, but I feel it must be pointed out.
The idea of saying all nukes should be banned in the IS, yet saying it is the only option for dealing with clan warships seems contradictive.
And the lack of orbital bombardment seems close to the same.
Is it right to use them to defend the IS from the clan invasion, only to say it shouldn't be used against or by the IS?
ComStar’s ability to mass produce warships could have become common knowledge to the great houses – thus ComStar was forced by the Great Houses to supply them with the materials to mass produce
Not sure about mass production, but by trying to force Comstar to do any of this, would very well result in a coms intradiction at a time where that would have destroyed any hope of holding the clans back. Comstar was not a pawn of the houses, and with Walterly in charge, only the DC might have gotten away with it for a while. The FC would have been left in the cold.
As for the clans warships, the horrible story writing made it so the clans did not use them against ground targets. And from the sounds of it, commercial jumpships were boarded, but not routinely destroyed. The IS having warships before the clans showed up, would have had the houses doing that very thing. They would bombard planets. Even limited, they would still screw them up. To be honest, warships should have been playtested a little more then they appeared to be. A single large warship can destroy invading forces, by taking out the ships before they were able to separate from the jumpships. Even if it meant destroying the jumpship, and letting the explosion take out the dropships attached.
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Karagin
06/03/19 02:10 PM
72.176.171.47
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Funny thing about treaties and bans, they are only as powerful or useful as those who back them up, so UNLESS every House is going to pounce on say House Laio for using nukes or a fleet of warships to bombard a planet, then the treaties are just paper with words that don't do anything to stop anyone, plenty of cases of that in real life from prior to WW1 to current day. And recall WHO writes the treaties like these, the winners, NOT the losers, because the victor can play the moral high ground card and use treaties to continue to paint the losers as the bad guys.
Also, warships in Battletech fall into the Fleet in Being group of naval warfare doctrine, they are there, they are powerful and they are more show and tell, because losing one or three will hurt BOTH sides and thus they neutralize each sides fleets because NONE of them are willing to risk the capital investment in a battle UNLESS they have a huge numerical advantage and can then guarantee that they can capture more of the enemy vessels to off set their loses.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Carns
06/03/19 03:29 PM
168.9.128.5
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How you have managed to avoid rule 6 for nearly a half dozen troll posts amazes me.
I cannot wait for next week's thrilling topic, "What if Omi Kurita ate Avacado Toast?"
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Requiem
06/03/19 06:48 PM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider, yes I am being hypocritical here, yes, I would prefer to have the game WMD free.
However, how can the IS engage against warships when they do not have any of their own?
How can they fight when the IS are not even allowed (by the games rules) retrofitted dropships with Naval weapons?
Unless the IS has a comparative Navy to engage the Clan’s there is no parity in the game – it is allowing one side to have an massive advantage the other cannot win against.
A warship can just stand off and pick off any invasion fleet or retreating fleet as well as bombard any planet with impunity. If you allow warships into the game and do not allow any defence against them there is no point in playing the game whatsoever, time to find a new game – thus the only viable defence for the IS is the Nuclear Missile at the start of the Clan Invasion.
The warship is the biggest target on the battlefield and it must be removed first!
These Ares rules are in direct response to Turtle Bay – the Jags use orbital bombardment – the DC use Kamikaze with Nuclear warheads – the escalation of nuclear weapons throughout the entire invasion corridor is on the precipice – Politically a solution must be made – even though I hate the idea of WMDs in the game I must be realistic, until the IS has its own comparable navy where one side can battle the other it has no choice but to use them.
As for saying its only for the IS – no it works both ways – what happens when the IS have their own Navy fleet? – they too must observe these rues when taking back Clan held worlds.
Or are you referring to nukes? – As part of the new rules of war they can only be used in space 75,000 Km away from any inhabited planet, planetoid etc and only against viable military targets. They cannot be used on any inhabited planet / planetoid.
As for forcing ComStar to mass produce, yes Walterly would not have been too thrilled with this – but what option does she have? An Interdiction of the entire IS would be another Operation Scorpion and it is an all Houses or nothing type of scenario – So, Foct and many others within Comstar would stage a coup and upon Walterly’s death ComStar (now under the command of Foct) would assist in a mass Naval build program.
As for those who sided with Walterly if they are not imprisoned by the end of Operation Scorpion they soon will be. No one would provide safety for them – they sided with the Clans against the IS by attempting an IS wide interdiction.
As for the clans being magnanimous and not sing them against ground targets – sooner or later they would have, would you trust you enemy not to use a weapon system of this destructive might? Any same person wouldn’t – thus they must be removed as they provide the clans with a tactical advantage the IS cannot win against and the only way this can be achieved is with either IS nuclear weapons or with its own navy.
I agree the idea of introducing warships should have been beta tested more than it was.
However, even before the Clans arrived with the re-introduction of the warships, and the spectre of orbital bombardments with them, if the IS were allowed to produce warships en mass a second Ares convention could have occurred – just as House Steiner called for unity she could also have called for a weapons ban. All sides would have realised that without this ban warships could prove to be the end of everything . Politically it just makes sense that everyone agrees to a weapons utilisation ban ie. the orbital bombardment / use of WMDs (including Naval Weapons) in proximity to inhabited planets and planetoids.
Edited by Requiem (06/03/19 07:02 PM)
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Requiem
06/03/19 08:01 PM
1.158.130.13
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Karagin, yes I agree with you in that they Ayres Rules) are as only as viable as long as every House / Clan agrees and complies with them and yes they are usually written by the victors - However the original Ares Treaty wasn't (if I am remembering correctly) .
However I would like to point out that post First Succession War the mass proliferation of WMDs within the IS has been reduced to those non House Government individuals who find them in a former Star League Decommissioned Base and use them for their own nefarious ends.
Kali Liao post Fourth Succession War was put on trial and she was imprisoned – this must indicate that within the IS there is still a sense of morality / legality when it comes to these weapons.
As for warships – no one wants a warship appearing out of a pirate point above your capitol world dictating terms and all your worlds where ammunition is manufactured only to see them decimated prior to a mass invasion.
Only then to have the opposing fleet begin to target not only military targets including CIC, but also essential food distribution companies etc. etc.
So yes, I agree initially IS fleet combat would be minimal due to the expense of the vessels and their cultural significance - due to the ships name. However, with the arrival of the Clans – and the use of an orbital bombardment upon an unprotected civilian city – what would you have the fleet do then – refrain from Combat with the Clan Navy, thus inviting more orbital bombardments? Or would you strike back, one naval vessel against the other?
For me I believe that IS Navies should have been re-introduced prior to the Clan Invasion plus retrofitted Drop-Ship PT / Submarine Class Vessels –as well as including the Ayres Rues as to their conduct in war.
This would have, in my opinion, also have opened the game to a new Naval Warfare box-set that could have been used prior to any world invasion and before any ‘Mechs on the ground - with new simple beta tested rules to make the flow of the game a little bit faster and more exciting.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
06/03/19 10:43 PM
72.176.171.47
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The original was written by a Laio AFTER losing a war and she felt that if folks didn't agree to some limits then the human race would be soon rubbing to sticks together as the height of their technological levels.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/04/19 01:21 AM
66.74.60.165
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Again. The alt should take care of this issue long before the clans show up. Hell. The alt does solve some of this as the lack of all out warfare, should have warships and the whole crap of the nukes and lack of warships is beyond moot. And with the latest, Alexander does not leave with the SLDF in tow.
Now. Forcing Comstar to help build a warship fleet isn't going to happen. Not until Ulric tells Focht that Terra is their objective. Walterly was trying to use the clans to destroy the houses, so it is not likely she would have given them the time of day with this. Operation Scorpion went down after the clans forward progress was halted. Not before.
So unless you are changing this part as well, then do so. Walterly would have loved to put an interdiction on the houses, so they fell, or at least thinned out the clan forces enough so the Comguard could take them out.
The Ares convention was ignored by the IS houses, so why should a second one be followed? It wouldn't even last beyond the first, don't do it. House Liao would not condemn house Kurita for using nukes against the Davions. They may well start using them as well. And Marik wouldn't shed any real tears if the Steiners were hit by Kurita. Now if you remove them from having those weapons before the clans show up, then they could not be used to nuke clan warships.
As a side note, the second Star League failed like the first one, so the Convention is just as likely to have as well.
Then the Jihad. Now a question that needs to be asked. Did they build their own nukes?
Or was it a stockpile left over from Comstar?
This leads to why Comstar would even have a stockpile in the first place.
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Requiem
06/04/19 03:15 AM
1.158.130.13
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OK, so it is getting a little confusing, my bad …. Redraft of my history required ….
For my History where the Kerensky never left and the “Clans” are an off shoot from the Forces of Amaris – they have retained their warships throughout all time so this is a non-issue.
However, for the my other variant alt. history upon the canon ….
War of 3039/40 – CC was annexed by the FC
FWL – The real Thomas Marik died in the explosion and therefore there was a subsequent War as to who the legitimate Captain General was …. Etc
Eg. for my Clan War – introduction of Fenris Forces – Introduction of SOE Forces – introduction of the anti-elemental infantry sniper rifle etc. etc.
The Helm Memory Core was discovered in 3028. So let us say that a short time after war of 3039/40 – 3042 for instance the FC, DC and FWL first Warships are being launched from their slipways together with a complement of smaller smaller Pocket Warships, Drop-Ship sized Patrol Craft (armed with a single naval laser weapon and OS capital missiles) and the stealth Submarine Class Warships (armed with only capitol missiles).
At the same time House Steiner proposed the amendments to the Ares Treaty – realising the necessity of these amendments the remaining Great Houses agreed via HPG and diplomatic communique – all sides realising that it is just a piece of paper that could be broken tomorrow if necessary – however for today it is good PR and it keeps all inhabited planets safe from orbital bombardment at the moment.
Thus by the time the “Clans” arrive the IS has a complement of warships to engage them with ….
Following Turtle Bay incident the ComStar informs not only the Jags but all the Clans as to the crime that has been committed and to the possible retaliation this will bring upon them, that beginning a Total Nuclear War - realising that they have been expecting the IS to wage war upon their rules the Wolves shame the remaining Clans into accepting the IS Ares Rules of war (as are they not similar to that of their own rules? – limiting the damage to civilians – thus proving the IS leaders are not the barbarians they first believed them to be). The Jaguars in compensation for the action of Galaxy Commander Perez the Warship Sabre Cat s handed over to the DC together with his head. The DC accepted these as a sign similar to that of a samurai cutting his belly as a sign of atonement – the DC stand down upon their plans for a Total Nuclear War against the Clans.
So in this scenario – ComStar is not required, the battles continue at a pace …. However all Houses and all Clans are now stuck with all the Ares rules especially those regarding warship battles and their proximity to populated planets and planetoids. Break them and it will be all out war using all utilizing WMDs against all targets both military and civilian. No one likes it, however it does protect not only the people but the industries of war and the CIC .....
PS: It also gives both the IS and the Clans the use of the Red Flag on the battlefield ……have a read of the Ayres Rules
As for the failure of the Second Star League – the canon writing where poor writing and an obtuse reason of finance and self-interest led to its fall (similar to the League of Nations) however for me it will survive beyond this in my alt. history – it is just too necessary a tool to keep communication open and more importantly keep commerce flowing – and this also helps to keep the peace).
As for the reason why ComStar needs a stockpile of Nukes – When technology falls and the ComGuard can ride out like the Knights of old to implement a new IS wide Blakean Theocracy – they may need them to quickly restore order upon barbarous worlds where the last vestiges of advanced technological weapons still remain. If you have seen the 1936 H. G. Wells’ film Things to Come – compare it to the peace gas used upon the remaining military of the world to restore order.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/04/19 05:47 PM
66.74.60.165
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Question about the Amaris forces.
How many warships would they even have? Not many if more then say 5. But then this is running under the impression they really didn't have many, and the war destroyed most, if not all of them.
One possible point about the clans trials. I don't think the limitation of war was for the civilians, but to preserve the location, such as a factory. Most civilians are freeborns.
The Comstar nuke idea is kind of weak. Rumors would spread as well as the whole idea of a nuked area is no good to any. Siege warfare, such as starving out targets would be more preferable. Limiting coms would be the idea here, instead of destroying the tech. It may well have some advances Comstar doesn't have, or didn't think of. It would be far better to just bombard the world, and avoid radiation entirely. This is if the Ares Convention wasn't in effect. IE the houses fell.
But this goes towards how WOB got ahold of them as well. WOB should have had to build them, and probably have warned others, they were making a stockpile.
Edited by ghostrider (06/04/19 05:48 PM)
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Karagin
06/04/19 05:51 PM
72.176.171.47
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If Kerensky didn't leave and he stayed with the SLDF, then we would have a Terran state fending off against the 5 houses and rules be damn at that point.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/04/19 06:57 PM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider, in regards to the Amaris Naval forces I was contemplating a Home fleet in the range of 20 to 25 warships. During the war for the Rim Worlds – post ‘Valkyrie’ coup within the Rim Worlds upon Amaris’ ‘Representative’ by a capable General – he/she then siphoned off as many naval warships and commercial Jump-Ship over a 12 to 18 month period. At the same time he/she was also able to coax a few warships / units from the hegemony area to join his /her fleet to escape into the Deep Periphery.
However once within their new home and given the time to establish a military industrial complex to even contemplate building new warships I was thinking of a fleet no larger than 80 warships – where each military naval fleet unit has 1 Carrier, 5 Warships of different sizes, 4 smaller pocket warships / stealth subs and 1 large support vessel - and there are 8 of these small fleets in operation at the time of their return to the IS.
As for the Clan Trials – initially the rules are about minimising damage was for civilians as a whole, civilian cities and technological industries. However over time this view would have shifted as the perceptions upon the worth of civilians compared to that of warriors changed over time. Thus in the future it is seen as only for industries.
In the far future when the fulfilment of Blake’s prophesies have come to pass who knows what may –may-not be required to pacify planets and bring them into the fold. Having the nuke does not mean you need to use it – it is there just in case it is required.
Karagin, yes my Hegemony theory does have them fighting against all the other houses – and this also has the major houses fighting three other ‘Houses’ and through the use of strategic alliances, a very large naval complement (in comparison to the other houses), a smaller realm size (in comparison to the other houses), and a great deal of luck they have held their ground throughout the ages.
Yes the First Succession war was brutal – but they got through with a minimum amount of collateral damage. The Great Houses were more concerned with pounding each other than going against the Hegemony and the SLDF.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
06/06/19 09:18 PM
45.43.104.179
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The Clans having warships during the invasion was mitigated by their military doctrine to routinely bid away aerospace and naval forces. There wasn't any pressing need for the FedCom, Combine, or Kungsarme to nuke the warships as a means to remove them as enemy assets. They were mostly just observer status in battles and dropship carriers during jumps. Clan Warships rarely got involved in a fight except against warships from other Clans or the Inner Sphere navies once they come along post-invasion.
Turtle Bay is an aberration. That was an act of punishment, not a battle. Radstadt was a battle, but one that the Rasalhaguians forced on the Wolves. The Dire Wolf happened to be there and was attacked, rather than being the aggressor.
That said, why would the Spheroids want to nuke the Clan warships if they're not being used militarily? If any of the three nations did, I'd expect the Clans would retort with a Turtle Bay style punishment at the planet that launched the nuke. I think it was the right tack for the Spheroids to acknowledge the Clans had warships, and so long as they stayed out the fight, that was one less problem to have to worry about. They have enough problems on the ground.
Perhaps the Combine would have resorted to nukes to save Luthien, but Warships were bidded away. (Its possible that none even made the jump and only standard jumpships were used to ferry the invasion force.)
Its also possible that warships would play a bigger role if the Clans got as far as Terra (or Luyten 68 or Ross 248) and the Com Guard Navy got involved. However the Com Guards had more warships power than the invading Clans, even if all the invading clans collected their warships together for an assault. (The Clans may have had numerical superiority of aerospace fighters to make up for it, and theoretically could have waited for reserve warship assets to come from the home worlds.) But if the Houses aren't terribly threatened by the Clan warships, and ComStar can outgun them, it defeats all need for nukes to employed against them.
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Requiem
06/06/19 10:47 PM
1.158.130.13
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The clans may have mitigated their strategy by bidding away their Navy forces, however, how did the IS forces know this? How did any general know they would not use it – it is just too improbable that they wouldn’t use it – thus the need to destroy it.
Will you not always attempt to destroy the biggest gun first?
So, if a rival military parks a warship just off the planet they are invading – even though they are not using their weapon systems – they may be using it as a CIC or for satellite reconnaissance you just do not know – would you allow the biggest weapon (being that warship) to remain on the battlefield if you had the means of taking it out?
In addition if you did take it out how could you not believe that the change in psychology of the attacking military would react to the knowledge that their warship was destroyed? Would you not think it would produce a decrease in morale – a decrease in fighting potential – may be even put them on the defensive?
Thus this is another good reason to remove it …. permanently.
As for Turtle Bay – you can call this an aberration all you want – but, how did any of the Great Houses Lords know that this is to be an aberration by the Clans? Did they get a magic message through their weegee board? If they used it even once then the possibility they would use it again for a second and third orbital bombardment is to be considered to be a real possibility …. Thus you have to remove them.
So, can you trust any Clan Khan with the power of a warship on hand not to use them for orbital bombardments when the S____ hits the fan?
Consider the lengths the English Navy in WW2 went to sink the German surface fleet – Tripitz, Admiral Scheer, Scharnhorst and Bismarck …. So what lengths would all the IS military units go to to remove them from the game ...
This is one of the main areas were the game totally loses the plot, there is no military throughout history who has ever allowed another enemy force to have such a weapon system and then they just ignore it the way the canon history did, as written it again does not make military sense.
In an era where the IS does not have parity with the Clans in a Naval fight they must use whatever is to hand to fight them – this being the nuclear warhead – until they have a Naval Unit comparable in size they will continue to use them from mass aerospace fighter assaults.
It is the only rational military strategy.
So the only option is to allow the IS a comparable Navy from the start if you don’t want nuclear warheads – this could be the introduction of Dropship sized PT / submarine Craft with one naval laser / OS Capital missiles until pocket warships could have been manufactured, however the games rules never allowed for the construction of these stop-gap weapon systems (another idea I have never understood).
So unless there is a way around it the only way forward is either through the introduction of mass nuclear strikes or an agreement to remove the warship from a populated planetoid’s immediate area.
Thus the idea of introducing new Ares rules to the game via an agreement in which everyone took part in – so everyone came to a consensus from then on …. Wave 2 can now commence ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/07/19 06:21 AM)
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