Requiem
06/06/19 04:13 AM
1.158.130.13
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Please find ideas for my Amaris “Clan” invasion force …. As there is only one Amaris force and the idea of many clans has been extinguished …..
The only war I can think of that had a pause of some years before it recommenced was the hundred years war – when in mid 1350’s the Black Death Plague caused the war to cease activities due to …. well the plague ……, however, following this the war was able to recommence.
And yet in the canon Clan war, they treat the invasion like multiple prize fights, due to who wins an individual battle a prize of 15 years of enforced estoppel towards the forward momentum of their war is implemented.
Can anyone say that where a system of prizes are put up for each battle fought – you win and you get a cookie type of arrangement …. Is indicative of misplaced understanding of what war is truly expected to be – it is sanitizing war a little too far?
So why now with Tukayyid – why have a pause button on a war?
Could it be that the game developers miscalculated – the absence of an extensive beta test as well as the absence of a more detailed and realistic story line …. A pause was need to give the IS breathing room otherwise they were at risk of being torn apart and finally engaged in one of the largest routs in history?
Thus the developers decided they should have been able to rest and re-arm and continue with the war asap ….
Can we not say this seems a little ludicrous ……. So why not let us say the cat got out of the bag in regards to Wolfs Dragoons and together with it the idea of the Omni Mech, Omni Fighter and Power Amour as well as some of the clan weapon systems …….
So for the past ten years, approximately, IS research and development teams have been slaving away at establishing the Inner Spheres’ first generation omnis as well as power armour and infantry anti-power armour weapon systems, in addition to some of the clans powered weapon systems.
The Inner Sphere has also developed a Total War Strategy scenario from the Start – utilizing all weapons from Vehicles, VTOLS, infantry , as well as all branches of the service – Commando, Infantry, power armour, armoured units, VTOL, ‘Mech, Aerospace, Navy Warship – and given the information received regarding Clan Weapons they have also realised the necessity of appropriate terrain (to which they have prepared over the years); they have also ensured the PsyOps teams have prepared to attack the non-warrior castes at the same time as battle is being fought upon the battlefield; they have also established teams to hunt the deep periphery for the Amaris Clan – ensuring resupply runs do not reach them.
In this war the inner sphere has prepared as best they can.
There will be one war, no pauses and no Tukayyid the Com Guard will however join in with the Houses Steiner, Davion, Kurita and Marik to ensure their advancement is slowed and even stopped once the Amaris Clans final prize has been determined – no less than Terra itself as well as the right of becoming the First Lord of the IS.
There will be one large war that takes over a hundred years to fight in which the clan invade, are then kicked out of the inner sphere- there in the deep periphery they fight as the Clan is slowly pushed back – new realms emerge and fall within the Deep Periphery - until the Clan’s home-worlds are themselves invaded. Thus they fall because their eugenics program could not produce enough true blood warriors quickly enough to force back the new SLDF.
The new Star League will also receive new technology over time to incorporate into their new model army - with defectors comes advanced technology …. With new units being formed and the upgrade of former units, ……………………. Etc. until one day they can say they have a paraity of technology with that of the Amaris Clan.
Plus what I would also like to see in the Navy throughout this one hundred years war is the former Wolf Dragoon’s Space station and mech production facility being replicated many times to produce new weapons systems close to the front from materials mined within asteroid bels etc rather than establishing supply lines over vast distances for many of the necessities of home …. Hence the idea new realms emerge from the ashes of the old as forward base realms – people emigrate – new farms are established – new cities are established as time moves on and as the war progresses …
Thoughts upon the rough draft ….. ?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/06/19 01:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clan invasion only seemed to be a war for the IS. The clans seem to treat it as a contest, or one of their trials.
The so called pause, was using the clans own rules against them. A challenge was offered and accepted. The outcome was followed according to clan customs. Each side could claim a reward if it won.
I believe the writers did this on purpose, to give the IS players a unwinnable situation that they have to fight against, then give them some hope to finally defeat the enemy. Almost every show has this happen almost every season, that deals with SciFi. Except for playing this game, how is this any different? Well, besides the IS not getting to build the 'ultimate' weapons.
There is something missing that ALL the other wars in the game have had. Betrayals, that cause 'allied' units to separate and fight amongst themselves. But putting this aside.
The number of warships is the first to tackle. Do you really need the IS to have fleets of them? Or would a few, maybe under a dozen work?
Better anti ship weapons emplacements in the systems may work. Though I would suspect they would be more for worlds closer to Terra, then the Rim Worlds area.
The FRR is another thing that needs to be decided. Did it form? Or is it still LC/DC property. This will change how the houses fight.
The last half of the post is kind of useless in trying to come up with ideas for an Amaris clan.
They would not have anywhere near the population or resources of the larger Kerensky forces that left in the canon version. Even clones and such wouldn't do it, and even worse, they would start having issues when it was time to invade.
Robotics with semi AI controls might be something, but that can be a very nasty sword to deal with.
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Requiem
06/06/19 10:08 PM
1.158.130.13
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The idea the Clan's war is treated more as a contest than as a legitimate invasion – to not only determine whom the il-Clan would become, it was also supposed to about reforming the inner sphere’s decadent culture seems to lost.
Clan culture, however, is a totalitarian regime – when conquering a planet and transferring their democratic / liberal government to that of the Clan’s society you should have a society in revolt – many partisan groups openly committing acts of terrorism – and yet the writing seems to have ignored this – especially within Rasalhague Space, as they had only just obtained their freedom and giving this up due to the clan’s invasion seems to be illogical.
A note on the side – When the battle of Tukayyid was completed and the Clans were not allowed to advance for 15 years, and we discussed why didn’t the clans attack outwards into both Steiner and Kurita Space – can I ask why those Clans caught within the middle of the Clans invasion route didn’t attack their neighbors to gain a corridor into either Steiner or Kurita Space – If they were such a society based upon Mongol Warriors – a warrior culture – why didn’t we see an almost continual round of battles between all the members of the clans to obtain worlds that wold provide them with a better invasion corridor 15 years hence from Tukayyid – the idea that they wouldn’t be engaging in high level combat between themselves – especially when your corridor is wedged between other Clans – makes little sense? the idea they would only limit it to small scale raiding battles, why? Are they not out to always prove “their Clan” has the fiercest and most elite warriors – and this can only be proved in battle – so why limit it to small scale raids? This is not the act of a Mongol or Spartan Warrior – where is the game developers understanding of when you put two or more warriors in a close environment they will always want to know who is the best, and this can only be achieved in battle?
So would it not be also probable – that not only are the Clans (post Tukayyid) striking outwards into Steiner and Kurita Space they are also striking out at each other en masse?
Should this not have been the betrayals? Where one Clan undermines another in order to gain superiority over their rival Clan, why do we not see more of the infighting that should have (in my opinion) have occurred?
But back to the topic at hand, the invasion became a contest only and all other ‘nobler’ ideas were simply lost as an afterthought. On purpose or not no-where in history has such a war of contests and prizes ever been considered before - it just seems to be taking light of the issue of war to that of a child’s game.
This is why in this Alternate History where the descendants from the Rim Worlds Republic’s Amaris Military and Civilians who fled into the Deep Periphery rather than be executed at the hands of a vengeful SLDF – now return to the Inner Sphere because they have no choice. An as yet unknown catastrophe has occurred – the original Government sent in the Dragoons to ascertain if one or more Houses would be open to the idea of providing them refuge their own realm as it were, peacefully. However, over time, as situation became increasingly dire, the military took control – becoming a totalitarian Government – who then just invaded to seize their new home worlds (empire) as it were.
Thus in this case, rather than the many separate and dysfunctional Clans of the canon, in this scenario I am proposing that there will be only one “Clan” as it were. A united single Clan with a united CIC directing its activities – first through the edge of the former Rim Worlds Republic Space into both Rasalhague, Combine and Commonwealth space.
Why attack three and not just one great house? Possibly, arrogance – by defeating three at the same time they are demonstrating their superiority, thus they will be feared – the other Great Houses will not think of attacking their new realm in the future due to their innate superiority.
Or/- It could be the most direct route back into the Inner Sphere for their military to attack and the subsequent re population of many worlds by their civilians.
Or/- both of the two reasons above.
So yes, the FRR has been established – though in my Alternate History I may have had them declare / gain independence over 150 years in the past and as such they have become a second CC realm as it were – just not as large.
As for their “betrayal” – the Dragoons and some within this Amaris Crusade Force are still loyal to the old Government and the ideas of peaceful cohabitation – a resistance within as it were within the crusade force, who are attempt to bring down the new totalitarian military government and re-establish the former liberal government and in so doing bring an end to the war.
As for fleet size – I envision the Amaris fleet to have a two to one advantage over the entire Inner Sphere Fleet at the beginning of the War – anything above this and you are providing one side with an unrealistic advantage over the other. I don’t want another invasion where the writers have to come up with an illogical idea of a proxy battle / enforced estoppel / restart that makes no sense whatsoever as seen in the illogical canon history for this Alternate History.
As for population – what if the entire society is made from eugenics (maturation) chambers? What if everyone has been created to fulfill their role in society from the genes of their forefathers? What if you are born into your caste role? And over time they were able to increase production numbers to establish a large population as it were – thus the issue of population growth becomes a non- issue.
As for the issue of Free-born – upon pregnancy the embryo is removed / modified accordingly and placed within a eugenics camber until maturation. From there all infants are sent to their appropriate “sibko” to train them as per their castes education / physical fitness requirements as it were. You are trained from birth to fulfill your role in society as directed by the Clan’s requirements – all very logical.
And yes I could see the WoB man / machine hybrid even being introduced (sometime during the Invasion) to create an even more perfect human – a more intelligent, stronger, fiercer warrior society that willing to obey its overlords directives – that will one day replace the pure organic of the past.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
06/06/19 10:26 PM
45.43.104.179
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I think the warship problem depends on how this Amaris Clan would fight. If they fight like the Clans we know, mostly on the ground with little aerospace involvement, then the IS doesn't need warships. However, the RWR was very aerospace heavy and mech weak, so perhaps they would fight in entirely unorthodox ways, with massed warship attack fleets, fighter screens, both orbital and tactical ground bombing, and with the smaller ground forces there just to finish the job. Or maybe they are sadistic and just want to blast the cities and militaries to rubble and not have to deal with 'civilized' warfare or maintaining garrisons. Maybe they have something unstoppable like 100 warships and 200 regiments of aerospace fighters, hopelessly outnumbering the defending forces in every system, conquering the planet with minimal losses, then moving on to the next system. The IS would have no shot at defeating them. They don't have warships and don't have 50 regiments worth of fighters amongst them, and 5-10 years wouldn't give them enough time to build enough of them (or train enough pilots) to counter such a force.
If there's only one Amaris Clan, and they don't fight anyone for 200-250 years, why build up such a large invasion force, or new tactics, or new methods of waging war (as the canon Clans did by fighting between each other the whole time)? I think this Amaris Clan needs some worthy antagonists in the form of subfactions. Maybe they start as 5-10 clans, but by the time of invasion only one remains, perhaps fulfilling a prophecy that when one prevails, it is time to return and conquer Terra.
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Requiem
06/06/19 11:32 PM
1.158.130.13
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Sorry Wick but I disagree, it is not about how they fight, it is about they exist in the first place above the battlefield, in space, and as such due to existence, due to the threat of an orbital bombardment on its own is reason enough so that they must be eradicated permanently!
As for my new Amaris Cruder force – because I am contemplating a totalitarian military government the apple has not fallen far from the tree, if you see what I am getting at.
So yes a very sadistic military who will use almost every weapon in their arsenal – the only thing stopping them is that they do not want to damage their new worlds (unduly) – re-colonization must occur upon undamaged worlds.
In warships they will have an advantage but as for ‘Mechs / fighters / elementals I was thinking on the line of adding all DC, FC and FRR forces then multiply by one and a quarter to one and a half to give me the Amaris invasion forces numbers.
As for not fighting anyone for 200-250 years – let us say that for a percentage of this time there was a civil war between those who wanted to remain ‘human’ and those who wanted the eugenics program – so now that the eugenics program has won and been in full swing for the past 100 years or so – just hunting down the final remnants of the ‘humanitarians’ they are more than ready to invade the IS.
Terra is not their goal however – their goal is to stamp their technological and Super-human dominance upon the remaining Great Houses and their people – and at the same time establish a new empire from which they can over time conquer everything and everyone.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/07/19 01:52 PM
66.74.60.165
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I think the developers left out the revolt issues due to being a sensitive subject. It promotes things that a few find very offensive. And I will leave this at that.
I want to say the Bears and Wolves didn't try to hit the others was from trying to rebuild, and the raiding for bleeding the others, as they looked for the future. Also, it would help avoid the flare ups in clan space between them. I think they hinted at that in some of the books. Wiether true or not, I don't know.
Then again, look at what the refusal war did to the Falcons/Wolves.
On purpose or not no-where in history has such a war of contests and prizes ever been considered before. Fantasy war game that has light years and real months between societies at war here. Nothing in history is like that. So apples and oranges.
The eugenics route would be far more likely to revolt before the clans society. Born into a caste? They would not have the total civil war as an excuse to come together and try that. And there would be alot of conflict between unit commanders, as they would undermine each other.
Now the question of how this force would gain that many soldiers and more importantly, the equipment to out number the IS forces at this time. If used in the alt where the succession wars did not happen like the did in canon, there would be far more working military units as well as soldiers then in the canon line.
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Requiem
06/08/19 02:01 AM
1.158.130.13
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When considering a revolt is this not similar to a civil war?
As for sensitive subjects, then may I ask about those raised during the Jihad – where it appears as if it was a little bit more darker? Such as ….
- WMDs - Nuclear, Biological, Chemical, Orbital Bombardment, Using an asteroid as a first strike weapon (and not only upon the military but also upon civilians);
- The issue of Concentration (Re-education) Camps;
- Surgical implanting of high explosives into a living person – turning them into a walking/breathing IED;
- Nuclear destruction of an entire world (all people, animals, everything) just to kill one person (the master) and his entourage; and
- Religious intolerance, etc.
It is proposed that the clans are a Spartan (warrior) society … so much so they should be considered on par with the Mongols … I find it hard to believe that, if you place two Mongol Clans next to each other they do not conduct multiple raids – including attempting to annexing each other’s worlds multiple times each year – in addition to attempting to strike out from their corridor to a new corridor when they begin their second drive towards Terra (there is now sufficient time to conduct a detailed research of the planets in front of them and design a strategy going forward – then implementing said strategy) - where what was proposed within the Canon history looks more like a period of rest and recreation, peace even, with only minor raids of no real consequence to each other.
As for the refusal war between the Wolf and the Falcon – Half of the remaining Wolf went with Phelan (to become Wolf in Exile) the other remaining half went with Vlad – we can also assume that the Falcons and Vlad’s Wolfs were approximately on parity with each other at the end – if they were not you could assume one side or the other would have wanted to continue the war – we also know both the Wolf and the Falcon suffered serious damage during this campaign – so can we rightly assume that both the Falcons and Vlad’s Wolves represented no more that 15 to 25% of their original forces. And yet when you look at the number worlds each side ended up with is this not on parity with the worlds they started off with.
So the question must be asked is this not the same as the war or 3039 – rather than destroying the remaining CC the FC attacks the DC- whereas in this case the FC (FS and LA) does absolutely nothing.
They are down to say 15 to 25% available forces they initially started with and still the LA do not attack - I cannot understand this at all!
If Katherine wanted to be the next First Lord – would not killing off either the Falcons or both the remaining Falcons and Vlad’s Wolves be a major plus in her resume to becoming the next First Lord. By demonstrating her prowess in dealing with the Clan threat would this not have the people of the IS see her as her Father’s Daughter and a worthy heir for the title of the First Lord. Can anyone explain this so that the best option was not to attack the Falcons or both the Falcons and Vlad’s Wolves at this time so that it could be easily understood?
How war is prosecuted within the game and that of current strategies has become apples and oranges - I just find it difficult to understand that a society would treat war in such a flippant manner.
Yes, the revolt is earlier – In the early stages of their new colony the technology becomes available – initially it is seen as a boon for their new colony, however over time the specter raises its head when one side proposes for a complete eugenics program for all the children – where-as the other side objects – one side or the other gets violent, a shot rings out, a martyr is formed – open revolt (civil War) – when the dust clears the eugenics side wins and the pro-human side is shunned to the side lines where on again / off again battles occur for the last 100 years prior to their invasion of the IS.
The idea of castes becomes ingrained upon a society where 100% of the population is born through a eugenics program – it would be a stable society as everyone would be programmed with the idea they were created for their task and for their wider benefit of the community as a whole. Thus I contend there wouldn’t be conflict in the ranks – if you can prove you are more superior than that of your leader why shouldn’t you be able to take that position (the same as the Canon history proposes with their Clans)?
Yes they have known for quite some time as to the size of the Inner Sphere forces – Wolfs Dragoons first report back – then it is just a question of building more eugenics chambers, more Sibko schools – increasing production quotas etc (increasing productivity of everything during the five year economic plan) so that by 3050 you have the forces and the equipment necessary to conduct a war to acquire their new home worlds and hold off any retaliatory attack by the IS forces. (You would have 50 years at a minimum to plan and build up the forces necessary before the invasion begins)
Even though the old government wanted to achieve their goal via peaceful measures – they are realistic enough to recognise that force may be their only option – thus they planned for this eventuality as well. It is just the military thought the civilian government was in error – thus they removed that error – and are now devoted to the military strategy ….
Thus yes the IS may have more forces but so too does the Amaris Clan Forces.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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csadn
06/10/19 03:30 AM
50.53.22.4
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In my personal files, I include a write-up for the head of the company which builds/modifies the units I designed -- he is a male-line descendant of Stefan Amaris. Short History: Stefan, being Stefan, knocked up one of the household scullery-maids. When she figured out she was with child -- and who was responsible -- she did *NOT* make the usual mistakes of someone in her situation; instead, she packed up what little she had, went down to the spaceport, found a working passage out of there, and didn't stop until she was well into the Outworlds Alliance. She raised her son with the full knowledge of who his old man was; and ever since, he and his descendants have been trying to minimize the damage of the Wars. In the process, he owns businesses across the Sphere -- all legitimate, most oriented towards "practical" household needs, and none with his name on them. (Can you tell I study Organized Crime as well as Military History? >:) )
The WarShip Problem:
First, recall the reaction of the other Clans to Smoke Jaguar annihilating a city from orbit; the only reason the remaining Invader Clans didn't pause to Annihilate S.J. was "the Piranha Principle" (attacking S.J. would have weakened them enough the Home Clans would have horned in). It only happened once -- There Is A Reason For This. (Even the brick-witted morons in S.J. got the message.)
Second: Take a typical WarShip, with whatever small-craft (Fighters, etc.) complement it carries, and send it against an equivalent cost of pure Fighters; in Gaming, the result is called "the Fuzzy-Wuzzy Principle". (See also: What happens when a force of Omnis meets an equal value of VTOLs.) Particularly horrifying for the WarShip is "what happens when Gauss Rifles are available (after TR2750 came out, I was referred to as "Emperor *WHANG* -- There Is A Reason For This. > ; ) )
What you keep bringing up here is nothing more, or less, than the sorry state of _BT_ writing from the 4th Succession War onward, when FASA realized halfway into 4SW they had written themselves into a corner labeled "Davion Uber Alles", and had to muppet-flail to find ways to keep selling product to players....
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Wick
06/10/19 10:55 PM
45.43.104.179
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I don't think it was a problem for FASA to market House Davion as the heroes during the early years. First of all, they spoke English and the other nations didn't (outside of the Free Worlds League, but you were never quite sure whether they all spoke English, or only some duchies.) In all fairness, its hard to sell a product to a mainly English speaking player community that doesn't present the heroes as English speaking as well.
Furthermore, a lot of the early material showed a clear preference for House Davion as they got the cool mechs in Camo Specs (like Hatchetman, Battlemaster, and Atlas), while the Capellan Confederation got the garbage (UrbanMech, Blackjack, Jagermech.) You wanted to play the Hatchetman and Atlas, and not the Urbanmech or paper-thin-armored Jagermech so it was natural to associate with the Davions. In the original MechWarrior video game, the hero is also from a FedSuns world. So FASA purposely set up the Davions to be the good guys, and their enemies in the Capellan Confederation and Draconis Combine to be the bad guys. Throughout the Warrior Trilogy and 4th War, this theme continues with those two nations suffering heavy losses, both on the battlefield and in their leader's minds. Hanse Davion is established as the hero - he wins the war and he gets the girl (albeit, these occur in reverse order.)
First time I saw this balance upset was in the Solaris VII box set, where the Davion district is the slums and the Capellan district is the nicest part of town. War of 3039 details also revealed some strategic planning problems with Hanse, and rebellion in Skye, which diluted his image, but he was still the hero to most by the Clan invasion era. I don't think FASA was ready to lose him as their hero until they'd established Victor in his place and then they kind of did it sloppily and weakly, with a heart attack instead of at the helm of his Battlemaster, and Victor less the hero than someone like Jaime Wolf. I remember reading the early Clan invasion stuff and seeing Hanse was still in power 25 years later but the other four Lords had all been replaced, and thought they misplayed it a bit by not giving a new FedCom leader for that period.
By all indications at my local game store, BattleTech was still selling well into the 1992-1994 era or so during the early Clan War. Stackpole had given us most of the fiction by then, and had cultivated a good storyline and spaced things out a bit. The problem was the rapid events during the Clan Invasion, and especially following Tukayyid when it should have been quiet for a bit and let gamers catch up. But there were a lot more authors and a lot more viewpoints, and things just happened too damn quickly to make sense. TRO:3055 is where I started to lose interest. It was talking about things like Wolcott (which wasn't described anywhere else outside the novels I'd not read.) and was introducing all these new mechs that were supposed to be super common when the TRO:3050 just years earlier made the point that new mechs were still very rare due to Succession War damage. By the time TRO:3058 came along, I realized the story was moving faster than I or anyone else in our group could keep up. Victor may have still been the hero of sorts, but we weren't attached to him like we were with Hanse. I think FASA eventually realized this and then the muppet flail began with anti-Victor stuff like Omiko's death, Katherine's betrayal and Civil War, etc. By the Jihad, Victor isn't anymore special than anyone else, and so a new hero, Devlin Stone, was created to usher in the Republic/Dark Age.
So I don't think there was any problem selling BattleTech to the players in the 3029-3030 timeframe. The situation was simple enough to understand for new and experienced gamers. It was in the 3050s or so that it unraveled, with the popular Hanse's replacement with much less popular Victor, compounded by events within the novels that were poorly (or not at all) explained in the gaming product, and far too many anachronisities. When I find out Hanse Davion is dead on page 46 of the 60 page Solaris VII Players Handbook, buried in the next to last sentence of the Davion Arena overview, that's a hard fail. (This is actually how I found out.)
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Requiem
06/10/19 11:59 PM
1.158.130.13
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I agree Victor is a very poor substitute to his father – his father had a flair that no other, maybe the only other was Morgan Kell, had.
Victor was a very poor character when not in battle – his ability to rule an empire from an administrative position was never there – where his father had how many very talented people around him at all times?
And yes I completely agree there was a clear Hero / Villain to the initial story that led to a counterproductive story line.
The problem is the stories are getting darker and with more plot holes that make no sense – especially when you have grown up reading about a character only to have them fall in a way where you want to throw the book across the room once you have read it! Or due to a historical spoiler placed in a supplement!– that must have been rough finding out about the heart attack.
I also agree there was no care taken in the development of the game at the time the Clans were introduced – it was rush, rush, rush, that lead to many inaccuracies and poor game development during the Clan Invasion and then a complete loss of the plot from then on ….civil war, Jihad, Republic, Dark Age to where we are now – how many main books were published discussing the ongoing history of the IS in the past twelve months? One?
I have reached the stage where either they start producing something that in my opinion is good otherwise I am going somewhere or else I may join the 40K crowd or even Star Wars
When I have to establish everything for my game it is becoming a little too much.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/11/19 06:34 AM)
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