Requiem
06/13/19 07:09 PM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider, in response please find a new thread as requested …..
Sorry but I do not understand the second paragraph as to what the idea is expressing, but maybe what you are thinking about is ‘Kiri-gomen’ an old Japanese expression dating back to the feudal era – the right of a samurai to kill commoners for perceived affronts. Yes, there would be laws when it comes to any civilian attacking military personnel – and within the DC this would be very harsh – can you please provide me with the Book’s name / page number where this is written?
As for the FRR and when they were still under the control of the DC – it may have been realised that within the Rasalhague area the situation was becoming a tinderbox – so rather that give the civilians a reason to riot restraint was required – so for once a softly softly approach was being implemented.
As for how this relates to the warships – are you suggesting that if the DCMS had access to Warship technology from 3042 onwards, if the people of the Rasalhague area were rioting in the street the DCMS would use an orbital bombardment to restore order?
Sorry, but if this is what you are suggesting, I do not think so the Civilian Guidance Corp. (police) should be able to undertake riot duty with vehicles – if not security ‘Mechs could be brought in.
As for Total War production, the re-alignment of industry to a total war output, again someone should have cracked open a history book or even read the great writers during WW1 and WW2.
As for older designs being produced after the Clan invasion – sorry no I cannot see this happening – once a new weapon is introduced that changes everything all older designs and production are scrapped for the new idea – that is they will scrap the singe weapon ‘Mech (all designs and all plans to make them) in favour of the omni – go back and have a look what happened when the Battleship Dreadnaught was introduced as all navies were now suddenly on equal footing – mass production to become the new ruler of the seas started by all European countries.
As for IS not understanding the technology, yes I agree initially this was not understood – however, after even three years of development I think the engineers will know what they are doing and the reasons why – for any corporation with omni tech this will provide them with a competitive advantage over that of their competitors – as the government will be more willing to purchase a multi weapon mech that can be used in multiple combat areas, and is easier and less costly to maintain / repair / retrofit with new weapon systems than that of a single weapon ‘Mech that is only good for one job and is harder and more costly to maintain / repair / retrofit with new weapon systems.
This is, in reality, where the real money is for the corporation who produces omni tech –it is also the future of all weapons within the IS – so if you understand omni-tech – transferring this to vehicles / aerospace fighters / VTOL craft etc. is also a win for the organisation and their employees.
Let me ask this how long will it take before an omni-tech subject(s) becomes part of the BattleMech engineering degree within all universities? Two years after the corporations understand it?
As for the spike / sledgehammer – if it is put in as cannon, even once, then the repercussions must also be acceptable – you cannot write a one off and then say the logical extension of this act is impossible, physics is physics either it’s all in or go pure sci-fiction there are no half measures or flip flopping so that ‘your’ rules ensure a level of bias towards one side over the other just because you want a great one off story!
The DC was a dictatorship – however even in a dictatorship you have the Yakuza and a black market – you can never get rid of them.
Even the social elite would have contacts in the black market for all those hard to find personal items that can be used to demonstrate your social standing etc. so yes I agree.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/14/19 12:31 AM
66.74.60.165
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Yes, there would be laws when it comes to any civilian attacking military personnel – and within the DC this would be very harsh. As your own version of the Combine's honor response, this would be in effect long before the clans every invaded. The Rasselhauge area would have their people moved around and executed, as they have risen up against the Coordinators right of rule. Even the Black Dragon Society is marked for death, yet if the state was as you said, they would be worse then implied with Indraha (spelling). He admitted in the novels, he would boil even children in oil to protect the Combine. The DC did hold large amounts of families hostage against the people doing as they were supposed to. They were held on other worlds.
Total war production isn't an option when you have hundreds of worlds to deal with. The main ones that would support it, would be those under the gun. The rest would be very resentful, if not revolting against losing their luxuries or even necassary items. Doesn't matter if the front line is only 3 or so jumps away. It isn't on their world. A single nation on a single world doesn't have the luxury of trading land for time. On top of this, public opinion must be majorly on your side. Most will think there is enough forces to prevent the enemy from getting past the front lines, and if they did, then someone isn't doing their jobs.
once a new weapon is introduced that changes everything all older designs and production are scrapped for the new idea.
So all producers stopped making normal mechs when League tech was put out in the same units? I think not. Some refused to change over, as there was a huge market for lower priced units. There will always be a market for it. Wiether is starves itself is the key. How long would it take? The houses were desperate for any unit to put in the field. How many mechs that were designed 200 years in the past were still being made when the clans hit? Or even just before they hit.
I agree omnis are cheaper to maintain once the techs are trained, the fact that the initial buy is where they fail. For two omnis of say the Firestarter, I could be a couple more of the set ones. So numbers is where alot of business is at.
The example of the Timberwolf. You could field almost a company of ight mechs for the price of the Timberwolf. Including a few mediums. A lance of Griffins could well take out a Timberwolf. And still fight on.
I don't think companies would train techs that aren't theirs to work on their units. They would want you to bring them back, so they get paid to work on them. Defiance ran into issues with the medium lasers one company was putting on their units. Defiance would not license to them, so they put a bounty on used Defiance medium lasers. Much cheaper then designing your own, and if the company refuses to work with you, you do as you must. Something that seems to be missing in the game. Tech would not be shared with the enemy.
Training military techs with omni components would mean contracts that avoid them doing anything with it, once they were no longer serving in the military. Much like those working on the high end units we have today. I don't think the F-22 techs can do anything that deals with that tech outside of the military. So yes. Military personnel would get trained, but no one else would.
All in wouldn't work. We do not have ppcs and FTL drives now, so that is all guess work. Even fusion drives are not around. But that is why I was saying they need to fix their rules before any rewrite is possible. Consistency is needed throughout the story line. How can you crank in a torso on a mech to give the arms more range? The natural aptitude for gunnery was changed. The entire history of engine explosions should never have come about. The stealth skill. The use of Microwave energy being set against ships, yet was never done before. And the people at Kathil shipyards knew what had happened in the past when a ship flew thru the beam area. Even construction of hovercraft is screwed up. 20 percent of the weight didn't work with XL engines. The whole reason why vehicles can't use the advance construction things like endo steel, double sinks and such.
And lastly, removing the ability for units to land, removes the main units being mechs, and putting them towards fighters and dropships. I hate this fact, but when I was reminded of this, I agreed. There would be no game if they did so.
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Requiem
06/14/19 02:57 AM
1.158.130.13
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How infractions are punished within the DC - may I suggest every game master must make that call for themselves as to how they interpret each houses philosophy regarding law and punishment.
As for total war production – please look into the American history of WW2.
It is not a question of proximity to the front or even luxury goods
Please read the way we won: America’s Economic Breakthrough During World War II by Doris Goodwin (especially the last paragraph)
https://prospect.org/article/way-we-won-americas-economic-breakthrough-during-world-war-ii
Remember how large the FC is – how hard would it be to mobilize the FS half to assist the LC half – and PS as per my Alt. History the CC is now part of the FS.
As far as I can see it is possible – the government and the people could maintain a Total War footing and as per the article above the peoples standard of living as well as their ability to procure luxuries could increase due to the introduction of a Total War Procurement scenario.
As for new ideas – when looking at the principle of the Dreadnaught – this revolutionary design made all other warships obsolete – thus the need to start from scratch and make more Dreadnaught class vessels – so in Battletech terms with the introduction of the Omni-Mech it made all other single Weapon design mechs “almost” obsolete overnight – Houses military would require a shift from the single to Omni (ie make more dreadnaught/ Omni class ‘Mechs rather than the now almost obsolete single weapon designs)
Companies have no choice but to train the military who in turn train their techs? Do you see any organisation initiating / ensuring this occurs today in any military around the world?
And what happens when these individuals leave the either the military or the organisation that manufactures the part - do they just sign an NDA and suddenly are never allowed to work again with the skills they have obtained whilst working with the military / organisation?
Are you suddenly only allowed to go back to school to gain new skills and you are only allowed to work using these new skills?
Anyway mercenaries pay more – so they go where the money is – you cannot stop a person utilising their knowledge just because a corporation wants to keep a competitive advantage.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/15/19 06:45 AM
1.158.130.13
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Wick, please find my response to your post on Was Tukayyid really a victory on 06/14/19?
Ok, you may be correct regarding the infusion of new individuals into clan society from a Sibko due to their failed attempt at becoming a warrior.
However, let us consider total war whereby the Inner Sphere utilizes a battle of attrition plan upon the Clans.
Loss Depletion Report
Question – at what rate can the SLDF inflict / sustain damage to the rate the Clans can inflict / sustain damage so that it will progressively over time cause one side or the other to sustain such critical damage so that over a prolonged war they will be unable to prosecute a continuance towards the war (they will have to give up or their entire forces will collapse).
Please read my previous forum page entitled – the Inherent weakness of Clan’s sibko education eugenics system.
In it I asked the following question - How could the Clans replenish their lost numbers on mass when their eugenics / sibko education system is are not geared for mass graduates?
On 09/28/18 Cray answered this with the following reply.
“A good question. The immediate answer is that the Clans invaded with, basically, 4 Clans and 4 backups out of (IIRC) 17, leaving a chunk of their military strength untapped. But they had a grand total of 110,500 warriors (per Warriors of Kerensky), including some diverted to paramilitary policing duties. Replacement rates would normally be about 5,000 a year with 20-year careers for a warriors.
One of my favorite alternate histories (my own, I'm biased) exploited that. The Inner Sphere can win even when losing at 10:1 or 20:1 rates. A war of attrition simply doesn't favor the Clans”.
So the Clans have to destroy 20 SLDF for every one Clan the SLDF destroy in order sustain their forces over a prolonged war.
So doesn’t this seem to be a little unrealistic? They may have good pilots but I acknowledge this is a very unrealistic figure for the Clans to attain – for every one clan warrior killed they must kill over 20 SLDF warriors?
This is why the Clans need to increase their forces – however their original bid is still in force – thus the need for “garrison forces” that do not constitute their front line warrior original bid.
As for keeping the number of replacement personnel at 300 per year thus after 15 years you have 4500 new warriors – this means for 15 years you have had no deaths due to combat operations / training accidents, no warriors have been transferred (removed) to a Solhama unit due to age obsolesce etc. etc.
Yes in 3053 things are not so dire – however in 3066 (14 years into the Tukayyid Truce) when the SLDF attack all the IS Clans – if you assume a Clan Warrior takes their trial of position at 18 the influx of an increased reinforcements via the sibko program is still 4 years away – that is unless you want to put a 14 year old into the cockpit whilst fighting the new Attrition War with the SLDF.
Thus the only recruits, in numbers and are available, to replenish your forces are the free-born – that is if you recognize it now in 3052, and you initiate a training program to cover this 4 year gap in additional recruits available.
Think about this very carefully. If the Khan of any Clan does not take steps in 3052 to increase their replacement personnel via their sibko system, by an exponential amount, then when 3066 comes around and a SLDF juggernaut is initiated they will just steamroller over them – a figure above 20:1 is just not achievable given a continuance of only 300 replacement personnel per year.
You must also remember that within the 14 years the Cats and the Bears have joined the SLDF - and one of the conditions was to improve IS weapons to the level of Clan Technology - thus when the war starts again there will be weapons parity between the Clans and the IS SLDF.
Thus I contest sufficient Warrior replenishment rate is an absolutely serious problem at 3052 so that by 3066 they have enough forces to sustain an attrition warfare mass attack upon the clan invasion corridor space. Also remember that the Cats and the Bears are also no longer with the Clans they are now with the SLDF, so has the original 20:1 now been increased to a figure above that of the original 20:1?
Yes, I agree the limiting factor to the prospect of a war of Attrition with the Clans is that of the number of Jump-Ships available – and their class (and also the number of Drop-ships they can transport).
The question then is, can my idea of establishing an Inner Sphere wide – total War manufacturing production program (Similar to America during WW2) – affect this figure given that at the same time they need to produce warships and as well Drop-ships - so production of these ships also needs to be increased exponentially.
In all reality the ability to move an additional 100 RCTs at once is unbelievable even if you design every warship to have a mass Drop-ship transport capabilities at the same time.
However if we go back to Fourth Succession War figures and add on an additional realistic amount of RCTs and then look at a system where by the SLDF initiates a Leap Frog tactic (as long as there are enough combat dropships) – Wave 1 can be initiated – then Wave 1 Jump-ships return to a pre-arranged pick up point and collect Wave 2 Dopships they then Jump Wave 2 in …. then they move as required – to obtain wave 3 dropships and then transport them to their targets (if there are enough Dropships) / assist either wave 1 or wave 2 units onto wave 3 worlds so on and so forth.
So the question is what is a realistic increase in RCTs that can be transported above that of the Fourth Succession War figure?
Can we say then Fourth Succession War Unit Numbers plus the RCTs per the following table below?
The number of additional RCTs that can be transferred by 3066 and have an IS SLDF warship fleet of about 80 warships + Retrofitted PT/submarine Drop-ship-Force.
My Guess would be ....
DC - 5
FWL – 6-9
ComStar / WoB – 3
LC of the FC – 5-8
FS of the FC – 4-7
CC of the FC – 2
And then if I am using my Alt. History additional Realms
Former Rim Worlds – 2
Terran Hegemony – 5-8
So can I ask does this sound reasonable to you?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/15/19 07:56 AM)
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ghostrider
06/15/19 04:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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Ok. The clans invaded long before they thought the IS would make the SLDF again. They invaded two of the five larger realms. The FC was going to be the hardest to do anything with, and the attitude is they were over estimating the numbers needed.
Ulric was about the only one that seemed to think ahead. Or maybe believed the Dragoons reports that he did get. The IS was thought to be even worse then the Bandit caste when they started. So unless you are using the alt from the original League timeline, there is no SLDF. Their goal was Terra. Not full conquest of all the IS. They only needed to keep the houses off their backs until one of them did hit Terra.
Doesn't matter the IS could throw x amount of forces against them, or even spit on the ground. They were in a race to seize Terra. No thought was needed about occupation forces on all worlds, as they were thought to just roll over in fear of the clans might.
Mixing the plans for the alt in canon discussions is getting to be a problem. This thread is helping to lessen it, but it still stands. Harping on the bad concepts the developers had and saying the alt is the only way things should have gone is just one persons opinion. I know a few on the board are tired of seeing about it.
I have yet to hear of any of this on the main BT board. I would suspect the banned this talk the moment it was suggested the writing we bad. But this board is open to this discussion, as long as it doesn't violate the rules.
Now. If the bandit caste did not attack military targets, then where do they get their equipment and parts from? And how do they more around? Clan dropships and jumpships would not allow them onboard, so how do you get to the markets? Using others that aren't known to be bandits is possible, but not that likely. You are talking about getting mechs.
Buying them? With the toltarian society the clans are, and the fact war machines are probably the best watched numbers of anything, I seriously doubt any purchase that isn't approved was done.
The black market needs trade in return for the product. Which would be what from the bandit caste?
I know there was a few references to solemha doing the crap work of guarding military assets. I just don't remember where they were at. They did not guard the main factories and such, but the small ammo depots in the worst areas, as any true warrior would never do so. This is logic.
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Requiem
06/15/19 06:29 PM
1.158.130.13
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Ghostrider, please find my response here from your post within “Was Tukayyid really a Victory” and dated 06/15/19 because of your post request, dated 06/13/19, regarding the partial thread-jacking of this topic.
Phelan, despite being free-born, has a direct ancestral sibling relationship with of one of those 800 names. He is also a natural and charismatic leader and an extremely powerful Mech-Warrior, even by Clan standards. In addition his father’s ability with the Kell Hounds and their actions against the Clans – such as the Battle for Lutherin demonstrates to the Clans the superiority of his DNA. Thus when promoted to the rank of Khan Ulrick is acknowledging his and his progenitors achievements with a new Blood Name.
If the Canon history continues, I believe one day Alaric Wolf will become Alaric Steiner – Davion. The precedent is there as his father is Victor Steiner – Davion after all. Though in all probability he will only achieve this honour in death from his successor Wolf Khan.
Storage? It will take, approximately, 18 years to get an increased reinforcement numbers from the 300 average true-born Sibko through to the front line.
As for the numbers post 3039 war – yes they were reinforced – however with the introduction of the Clans how many IS units just suddenly disappeared from all the Houses, may I suggest you go back to the 20 year update and compare it with the post clan House books and ask where did they disappear to?
Game developer fiat once again to protect their “ow so precious” Clans?
I will now make response to the above post.
Clan Invaded
Each House – FC / FRR / DC attempted to hold off the Clans as best they could.
Upon discovery of their true aim Terra – ComGuards initiated an all or nothing throw of the Dice at Tukayyid.
15 year estoppel of all Clan forces on their march to Terra was achieved.
At this point or during their initial pause when all the House Lords were undergoing Training with the Dragoons it is conceivable the issue of a united front – similar to WW2 America, England, Free French, Russian – could have been achieved, and it is quite absurd of the developers to believe the House Lords would all believe they could handle the situation on their own.
Thus in a “sane” reality the new Star league and the new SLDF are once more established (as no one Great House can fight this problem alone not even the FC with all their resources – that is unless a First Succession Nuclear Holocaust War is started by Kurita) – so with a council of rulers and a figure head First Lord Kurita for the first 5 years.
QUOTE: No thought was needed about occupation forces on all worlds, as they were thought to just roll over in fear of the clans might.
Question – does the issue of supply lines and logistics then becomes an issue?
Do the Clans need to consider the IS tactics that will be used for disrupting their enemies supply line? – the offensive strategy to inhibit the logistics of their enemy.
Which will require a defensive strategy to protect their supply line?
There is also the issue of pride – they have taken worlds can you see the Clans giving up worlds so they can assign them from a garrison post to the front line to ensure their march to Terra – as is they soon find that holding a supply line open from the Deep Periphery to the front line and having available forces to continue the war will be impossible without additional forces or removing the majority of consumable weapons and exchanging them for energy weapons and then continuing the advance without additional logistical support from the Deep Periphery.
Bandit Castes – what I was alluding to is the idea of “soft targets” – going against a main combat facility is suicidal. However, as an example of a “soft target’, I would assume one of the training scenarios for a sibko (for either for true or free born) is the overnight “extended hike” and “camping trip” – though in their case this would include ‘Mechs and live fire filed exercises within remote areas.
Is it conceivable the Bandit Caste could lay an ambush for these “cadets” in an attempt to take their ‘Mechs when the majority are within their tents and only one is guarding them within his/her ‘Mech?
As for moving around and purchasing – illegal Black market / Crime organisations / smugglers – the same as they do now for all illicit goods.
As for payment – in any society there is always hard to find / illicit goods that due to their very nature are considered luxury items – hence desirable and valuable. Even information can be considered to have its price.
As for Solhama – this is a very good place for recruits to the Bandit Caste, the disgruntled / put out to pasture – how many would have a chip on their shoulder to the point you could tip them over the edge into the Bandit Caste with whatever they desire most?
So, another “soft target”?
And yet no response to my above question – can I thus assume then that 4th Succession Level War Units + approx...30 New RCTs worth of Material can be jumped into the Clan Occupation zones by the new SLDF at approx. 3066? As the Bears and the Cats have their own transports.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/16/19 12:26 AM
66.74.60.165
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There are alot of freeborns in the clans that have direct descendants to the blood named. Diana is Aidan and Perry's child. Both trueborn warriors from the same sibko. Rana is Natasha's direct descendent. There are more as well. Besides Ulric's involvement, there is no way Phelan should have achieved a blood name. He was born in the IS. Not even clan born.
Storage? It will take, approximately, 18 years to get an increased reinforcement numbers from the 300 average true-born Sibko through to the front line. It took that long for the Falcons to get their numbers back up?
The scientist caste may well have had other warriors in training that could be used to fill the ranks. And as it was Wolf genes mixed with Falcon genes that were being used in that experiment, it is possible they have more. Maybe even the Bandit Caste is where they are trained.
The storage is saying the Iron Womb tanks were in storage. But then there is nothing to say the wolves didn't already have increased sibkos planned. And yes, there is nothing that says they did. The writers have done this before in history. Pulled things out of thin air.
At this point or during their initial pause when all the House Lords were undergoing Training with the Dragoons it is conceivable the issue of a united front. If you ignore the entire history of the houses, then this is correct. But distrust from all sides doomed that. In canon at least. And if the writers were sooo hung up on the clans, there would never have been Tukayyid. There would have been an enmasse attack on the IS with all clans, with no weakness, such as the batchall. A simple hot rage to wipe out those that destroyed the great Star League. Or their evil descendants and houses. Or is the fact the writers are the ones that stopped the clans with this get missed?
The original thoughts of the clans was supplies weren't really needed. The IS would crumble before the clans and their tactics. Going to the stone age view of the IS, I could very well believe they were foolish enough to think the IS was like the SLDF just before the clans hit the survivors from the civil war. No supplies, no replacement parts, no way to fix anything.
It still shows a lack of understanding the clans when it is thought the front line would refuse to give up worlds to be garrisoned by others. It is beneath the front line to do anything but attack the IS. The weak, worn out, or failed to make the front line warriors do that lowly job. The only time they would care is if it affected them.
It did later in the invasion, but initially it was scorned to be stuck in garrison duty.
As for moving around and purchasing – illegal Black market / Crime organisations / smugglers – the same as they do now for all illicit goods. Is there a black market in the clan worlds that sells military equipment to anyone? Maybe unarmored infantry, so people can hunt, but to buy a mech?
Do you really think a dropship would carry bandit goods somewhere else?
They would need their own ships to do that. And that is not something they would get easily. Now it is questionable if the khans would admit a bandit raid got something big like a dropship, though they would send solemha troops to reclaim it. Front line troops would not be sent unless it was that bad.
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Requiem
06/16/19 03:41 AM
1.158.130.13
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How can the scientist caste hide an army?
Would it not be better to just put them in the Sibko system - as the only ones who can check their DNA is the Scientists themselves - also over a period of time would it not be part of the plan to hope one of their altered warriors would become Khan / sa-khan, and with control of the command positions would you not have control over the entire Clan?
As for the Houses being unable to work together due to mistrust when they were undergoing training with the Dragoons ... ie. due to mistrust the Star League could not be established here .... this is a complete load of BS.
History ....
Roman empire ... how many of the conquered lands supplied units as Roman Auxiliaries.
Dark ages - Crusades - how many knights were warring each other at home and yet whilst on Crusade were allies.
The Mongol empire - held together by its leader only - once dead his sons ensured its destruction.
War of the Roses
Napoléon Bonaparte - how many changes of sides occurred during this age.
and more recently WW2 - Russia was first aligned with Germany - they even held half of Poland - it wasn't until Operation Barbarossa did Russia switch sides and ask for assistance from the Allies.
Historical Precedent is available to show that it is quite conceivable that Star League could have been established .... only human stubbornness and a sense of individual entitlement would have stopped its establishment at this stage not their animosity towards each other.
At this stage if you propose a council of rules - the First Lord is only a figurehead and you give it to Kurita I cannot see how it wouldn't have been established.
Again the rush to have the Clans ensured all the problems .... if proper beta testing and a little for thought was used the introduction of the Clans wouldn't have been such a mess. As for Tukayyid this was an ill conceived - by then it was quite obvious that a new uber FC situation had arisen but in this case with the Clans - hence the need for a stop gap method to increase the parity of the IS forces. In all reality the story has gone off the rails by this point and they have yet to find the rails yet get it back on them.
As for smuggling - how does it occur within the 21st Century? it will be the same in the 31st Century.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
06/16/19 01:42 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
How can the scientist caste hide an army?
They put their troops on isolated planets.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
06/16/19 01:47 PM
66.74.60.165
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I didn't say the Star League couldn't be done. There would be a lot of useless laws, as each side would want securities that would counter others. The League was not a full mobilization of all forces in realms to be sent out of their nations. Limited amounts as well as basically contracts made for what units doing so could and couldn't do. As there were other members in the council, a single realm was not supposed to be able to dictate things. Sun Tsu got around that, and basically started the destruction of the League for the second time. Kurita continued it with the Lyons Thumb, though he didn't attack to take it.
Yvonne was the last straw.
How can the scientist caste hide an army? A new world? An sparsely inhabited world?
The Bandit Caste was able to hide from the clan commanders. How difficult would it be for the scientist to? Thinking like this, the scientist caste may have been behind the Bandit Caste.
Sadly, I just got a possible idea on why security may not have been needed in the areas where the front line units were stationed, and some support of the scientist caste may be supporting the Bandits.
Facial Recognition.
Since we are talking about the future, even DNA scanners being set up in specific points.
So any unauthorized visit to a mech factory would probably result in death.
The League was formed to stop the clans. It was supposed to avoid the interhouse conflicts, but ended up giving the elected lord a way to gain more power, and not have a war start from it.
The example of Russia and Germany. That is a decent example of why the League was reformed. Necessity to keep alive. The FC and DC were not going to be able to stop the clans from ripping apart sections of their realm when they had to keep most of their forces pinned in garrison duty. So a binding agreement had to be made.
Sun Tsu was elected as it was about the only person that the rest felt like could be controlled. In canonverse, he was the weakest, pinned between the FC and FWL. Both would have been happy to remove him from power, permanently.
As for smuggling - how does it occur within the 21st Century? it will be the same in the 31st Century. Smuggling is easier when you have multiple governments involved. The smugglers can get across the borders and hide for a while. Hard to do that when you have millions of miles to the next world, much less light years to another system. It would be a good assumption to think all dropship and jumpship travel is strictly controlled by the clan leadership. Granted it would probably be the scientists that keep track of it all, so the merchants would answer to them. Smuggling from Columbia to Mexico would be easy, as the border isn't this huge emptiness of space. And the ways to do so aren't strictly monitored or even as expensive as buy a shuttle as needed in space. A full unified world has law enforcement all on the same page. Not just mistrusting the people across the river, as they are not from a different government.
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Requiem
06/17/19 01:56 AM
1.158.130.13
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In regards to my question - How can the scientist caste hide an army? I was provided with the answer they are centralized upon an isolated planet.
Can I now ask “How?”
Can I even ask, “Does the Clan Home worlds even have an isolated planet?”
So, how does the Scientist Cast achieve this – who built it? As its size alone would have to be close to a small city – and what of all the ancillary facilities required keeping the facility operational who is permanently assigned to the facility to maintain it?
Who maintains the ongoing logistics and how do you maintain the ongoing logistics? (Drop-ships and Jump-ships from the Merchant caste?)
How does any military equipment and consumables make its way to this world? Etc.
To be able to even consider this achievable the the Scientist caste would require many allies within ALL the different branches of other castes, so, who assisted them? Who has the resources / authority to be able to be siphon off logistics from the main manufacturing plants and have them sent via covert means to an isolated world?
Thus in all reality if there is a hidden world it is no longer a Scientist revolt it is a revolt by all the non-warrior castes …
They would need access to all the different branches of all the castes to pull something like this off – even the bandit caste would be unable to achieve this without allies from other Clan castes to assist them.
So I stand by my original statement – hide them in plain sight within the sibko system, get them graduated as warriors and then attack from within – as for controlling them some kind of “mind control” comes to mind …I know …. sigh of exasperation!!!!
The League
Yes just like the UN it was formed to bring lasting peace – and just like the UN the canon reality was a complete and utter failure due to the inclusion of the Veto. And in the canon version they allowed the First Lord to have total control over the SLDF and to be able to post any unit of said SLDF to any planet in the IS – where in any sane universe would never even be considered possible.
Except when game developers want to make the story interesting and yet at the same time completely unbelievable.
In reality however only a council of Lords – similar to the UN Security Council - could be considered a viable option, and together with a massive set of rules and regulations (established by a small army of lawyers from every House, arguing over every word and every meaning and how it related to their Lords overall power etc etc.) thus ensuring the position of First Lord was purely ceremonial!
So, only equal power for every member or it just wouldn’t be formed at all!
Inter-house conflicts can never be stopped they can only be delayed or transferred to an alternate country for a proxy war.
Canon history = Sun Tzu – where a weak power used the position upon an even weaker state.
Then Theodore used the same power to subvert the LA.
Sorry but I have a very hard time believing that the canon universe would allow such antics – or even a second use of these power clauses – where are the Lawyers? Where is the ‘removal clauses’ for the mismanagement of office powers clauses? The canon story is now becoming very far-fetched.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/19 05:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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Can I even ask, “Does the Clan Home worlds even have an isolated planet?
Only the scientists and their 'private' pilots knew about it?
Dangerous and deadly experiments performed on a world as a cover for the facility?
Comstar did it, and the IS had copies of the maps in numbers. The warriors wouldn't care so much as long as they got their toys. The merchants might have it, but the limited numbers of ships would give the scientists the chance to wipe out that information. Much like the invasion road did.
As an was said before. The clans were made of workers and their rulers. Do you ask where this cargo is going when given an order to just load it by the scientists? No. You just do so.
The merchants gain from having warriors on board, as the clan commanders would think it useless unless in combat situations.
Understand that the universe at this time was set in a more feudal society. How many countries in the world had ultimate authority over the public and military? Dictators tend to do this all the time. It was working before the League came about. All the houses were supposed to have safeguards so the ruling house didn't do bad things. That failed in those that had some democracy. House Liao would be a good example of total control of the military.
Now. With the question of how someone could send military to where even on a whim. Isn't this what was suggested about sending everything to fight the clans? Remove defenders from areas that are likely to be hit, even if by pirates?
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Requiem
06/18/19 03:24 AM
1.158.130.13
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So we have another five hidden worlds scenario, yet this time for the Scientists?
Isn’t this strategy getting a little old?
And we have the same old excuse “I was just obeying my orders”, and I thought the Nuremberg trials put paid to this idea? Yet in a totalitarian society (the film 1984) free will evaporates like mist before the sun.
So can we say the Clan Caste Society is equivalent to the worst totalitarian government formed to date?
House Liao may be an example of total control of the military, and yet in all reality their house should have fallen in the war of 3039 – only the game developer’s fiat saved them!
As for sending the bulk of the FC military against the Clans – I thought we had argued this through and through – we will just never agree, Me, yes the FC can and You, No they Can’t.
It just comes down to what you believe an adequate border security force is?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/18/19 07:38 PM
66.74.60.165
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The strategy is old, as almost ALL of the super power strikes were secret organizations or locations until they hit. The Jihad being the worse for mass destruction.
Now with this, wasn't it suggested the houses make their own secret locations for things? 
The troops issue was for all of the Star League, not just the FC in this one. If the League had total control over all IS forces, then border security wouldn't be at thick. Known areas where pirates hit would probably get a boost, but areas, especially around Terra, should be calm and secured.
Though I doubt the houses would have allowed more then a handful of their forces to be moved. Distrust is not something you can solve over night. Especially given the IS was good for strikes without warning (fourth war comes to mind)
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Wick
06/18/19 08:25 PM
45.43.104.179
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They don't even need isolated planets. They could have used caves or foliage to hide their army, without the need to ever transport them off planet or involve other castes in their ploy. I'm sure that if they wanted to hide the equivalent of a small city's population in the mountains or jungles 50km away, they could do it and the Warrior caste would be none the wiser. The Scientists were obviously smart enough to find numerous ways to hide their efforts. On the off chance a hidden site was discovered, its just blamed on the Dark Caste and the ruse continues.
As far as ComStar and hidden assets go...
Their warship fleet was hidden in two systems in the very crowded Terran Corridor region, but never discovered because there was no reason for other jumpships to visit these barren systems - there's two or three dozen populated worlds to jump to from each inhabited system in this area, so why jump to an empty one that offers nothing? If a ship does jump into system, whether intentional or by misjump, the Com Guard navy could simply commandeer the jumpship and its dropships during recharge and have the disappearance blamed on a misjump.
Their hidden worlds were less hidden than ignored. ComStar easily had the capability of spreading rumors that a planet had been struck by asteroid or wiped out by some terrible contagion, and jumpships and dropships would just stop visiting, especially if any visitors mysteriously never came back (captured or destroyed by ComGuard aerospace fighters). Perhaps every so often one stops by to recharge their KF drive, but doesn't ever deploy dropships to investigate the planets and is gone in a few days, but this can be explained away if the system is a poor recharging star type compared to another nearby star or, like the warship depots, is camouflaged by a more traffic-enticing known-to-still-be-inhabited nearby system. For the most part, by the 31st century, if you don't know someone is there, or its not your mission to investigate each system in detail (ala Explorer Corps or Interstellar Expeditions), then you pretty much ignore the systems that aren't known to be populated. Short of a lot of radio chatter coming from one of the planets (which ComStar or Scientist Caste would naturally keep to minimum on these worlds) there'd be little reason to investigate, so I could see them remaining hidden for a long time. And likewise with worlds within Clan space.
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Requiem
06/18/19 11:24 PM
1.158.130.13
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No matter how you look, hidden worlds / bases / ships etc will always be a part of the game.
Though with all “hidden emplacements” logistics and the transfer of key personnel will always be a problem. The only way to find them is to identify these lost logistics, people, drop-ships and jump-ships and only someone with a genius level IQ, a “unique” personality towards numbers as well as access to their source materials. This person would also have to be honest and accidently informs the “wrong” person as to her/his discovery.
Then it is just a race to locate, extract and interrogate them about what they found.
Then it is just a leap of faith jump and an exploratory mission to find them …. And then a lot of luck they they are able to find the hidden emplacement.
OR/-
Your jump-ship miss-jumped allowing the crew to see something they shouldn’t – they then hot-jumped out and were able to stay alive long enough to get the proof of the hidden emplacement to someone who could authorise a military incursion.
If they were so effective I wonder why they have not been used more often throughout the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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