Requiem
06/18/19 05:06 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Note: This Alt History is taken from the point of view of that of the Clan’s who remained behind whilst Operation Revival was in full swing.
This relates to an IS where … (some of the main points (not all of them) are …)
CC no longer exists – absorbed into the FC;
Thomas Marik was assassinated – there was never a Comstar substitute;
Clans Invaded – Wolf Falcon, Bear, Jag etc
Turtle Bay occurred
Second Ares convention established to negate a full nuclear war and establish rules regarding Warships proximity to inhabited planets etc.
Tukayyid – 15 years no forward momentum towards Terra.
Star League is reborn together with the SLDF
Omni-(all weapon systems) are beginning to be established
Total economic production war footing is established
The Immortal Extreme Gladiator Mech League is established to promote the great houses ability to put aside the past and look towards a brighter future – R&D test new omni weapons – exchange information regarding weapons designs to defeat the Clans ….
Both the Cats and the Bears decide to “switch sides” and join the Star League … the cats and the Bears enter into a joint program to establish Arc-Ships to remove their entire populations etc. into the IS
As the last Arc-Ship leaves Clan Space … they inform the grand council ……
Explained in a little more detail …..
The speed and ferocity of Wolves was ill matched by many others assigned to Operation Revival, several of the Clans found themselves floundering as their Toumans where clearly unprepared for the established resistance by many of the Inner Sphere Forces during the initial years. And then having to accept the Truce of Tukayyid the home Clans wasted no time in scapegoating the Inner Sphere Clans for not only for their collective failures, but also for Tukayyid and the entire invasion.
As the years progressed on the enmity of home-world Clan’s Khans increased as they began plot and consider their options in secret.
Tension increasing steadily between those chosen for Operation Revival and those who remained on the Home-worlds. The tipping point, however, came in early 3060 as the last Bear ark-ship was leaving Clan space and with the formal announcement of their relocation as well as their intention to formally become a member of the new Star League.
Incensed beyond reason the Khans abjured all of of the Clans or their respective units who were associated with the Inner Sphere. Not only would they forever cut their ties with these Clans these Khans immediately announced Trials for the absorption for their remaining territory, people, everything within Clan Space.
And as a result it was also decided to establish a forward colony that would forever represent a boundary between those who failed and those who finally would succeed. At first the Inner Sphere Clans assumed there must have been a technical issue between their forces and landholdings within the Clan home worlds and that of their forces with the Inner Sphere. It would not be until the arrival of the last Bear ark-ship they would discover their fate – to be forever cut off from the Clan home worlds.
Unable to move forward and unable to retreat the remaining Inner Sphere Clans pondered their fate.
By 3063 the Terminal Colony was being established within the Deep Periphery from one end just beyond Nueva Castile and extending all the way beyond the planet of Ghent - a new Hadrian’s wall that will forever establish the boundary between Clan civilisation and failure.
As for those Cans remaining within the Inner Sphere now exiled with the absence of logistics support and reinforcements their Khans finally called for a conclave in late 3063 in a neutral system within the Deep Periphery. There they were forced to accept some hard truths as to the possibility of their future survivability.
Thoughts on what the abjured IS Clans could do next ….
1. Continue the war to become il-Clan?
2. Establish their own fiefdom – taking the Bears technology they brought into the IS to ensure their future survival?
3. Join the SLDF and retaliate against those wo abandoned them?
4. Exodus from the IS and attack their traitorous breatherin in a war of annihilation?
5. Other?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/18/19 07:32 PM
66.74.60.165
|
If I remember right, the Bears lands went to clan Snow Raven and one or two others. The Ravens, as they build the ships the Bears used. So technically, the canonverse already had that covered. Not sure if you are going to stick with it, or have trials fought for these lands and assets.
The Bears did have access to some factories that was in the FRR. The Nova Cats would be a question. Not sure where they had to settle or build factories.
But the question does come up. Is the Diamond Sharks forbidden to trade with the two? I can see raw materials and IS made 'junk' being in demand for shipment back to the clan homeworlds.
As this is supposed to be a smarter rewrite, wouldn't the clans have forward bases and even factories along the Exodus route? Munitions being the most needed, no matter what else happens.
More farms and such created as well. Fuel depots are a must as well. Ship fuel being the most needed.
There would be fights happening, but hard to say if it would be a dedicated push or not. As the Warden part of the Wolves were neutral to the Bears, that would be a buffer. Since those that sided with the clans were Crusaders, I could see the entire border being questionable. I want to say the Wolves would have kept that border neutral, so they could focus on the Falcons and IS.
Now the next question comes on wiether or not other clans joined the Star League. The cats and bears were inside the IS, so joining was relatively easy. Those that didn't have direct contact comes to mind.
|
Wick
06/18/19 07:40 PM
45.43.104.179
|
Continue invasion / side with the SLDF?
Jade Falcon: Continue; Too strongly Crusader to join Inner Sphere "barbarians"
Smoke Jaguar: Continue; Same situation as Jade Falcon
Steel Viper: Continue; They don't trust or desire to work with freebirths
Wolf: Mostly continue; Some remaining wardens may be enticed to switch sides
Wolf-in-Exile: Join SLDF; Might as well. It's basically the the charge Ulric gave them, though they are very weak at this point and in no real position to give much martial support (which is why the canon Cats were SLDF and the exiled Wolves were not.) They could give assistance in other ways though, such as technology.
Diamond Sharks: Join SLDF; Without any homeworld assets, and no planets in the Inner Sphere outside of a few periphery bases, their economy (and livelihood) would collapse if they didn't side with the new Inner Sphere markets.
Hell's Horses: Special case, see below.
Create own Fiefdom?
The Clan occupation zones already pretty much were. The Bears were even negotiating with Rasalhague diplomats by this point to even legitimize it. The Cats would end up doing something similar in the Irece Prefecture. The other Clans probably just continue to rule with an iron fist, but they are effectively their own nations. Without access to homeworld factories though, I'd expect them to invest more in building new factories and upgrading their captured factories to produce Clan-spec equipment earlier than they do when cut off in canon.
Exodus from IS?
I can't see any reason why the invading Clans would give up their occupation zones. That's resources, factories, HPG communications, and a large labor force to continue getting stronger, especially if cut off from homeworld assets. I don't see moving into the periphery as a better option for any of them.
Other:
* How is Clan Hell's Horses handled? At this point they would control three Inner Sphere worlds, but weren't considered an invading Clan and didn't fight at Tukayyid. Are their forces on these three worlds abjured as well, or are they allowed to abandon them to return home?
* Presumably, the Inner Sphere Clans would set up an ad-hoc council in the style of the later Council of Six. The Exiled Wolves would still be excluded though.
Kudos for selecting a "just-past Grenada" to Ghent as your delineation line. That seems to be about as good as you can get with 3060 mapping data. Although from Waypoint 531 to the cluster later labeled A51 might be another line, pushing it back closer to Caliban Nebula and more in line with what Clan picket patrols might routinely monitor. The less distant from the Kerensky Cluster and Pentagon, the more tightly they can watch for anyone trying to sneak by and contact the Dark Caste so as to make off with the contents of a Brian cache or some other technology. (The Sharks in particular might try this to reclaim inventory that the new enclave owners may not even be aware of.)
|
Requiem
06/18/19 10:20 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Ghostrider, Simplicity would be the easiest way to go forward when it comes to what is happening within the Clan Home Worlds – for the most part I believe I would stick with the Canon. However I may change a coupe as / when I research / complete this scenario.
So, The Bears establish the FRR / Bears Enclave – as for the cats if you want to keep their relationship with House Kurita – somewhere near the periphery and near the Jags sounds about right.
However if you want to break their relationship with House Kurita – how about in the former Rim Worlds Republic?
As for Diamond Shark – as long as they don’t get caught by other Home Clans they can trade with whomever they like.
The question of forward supply bases –
For me the forward supply bases would be within the deep periphery only along pre-determined re-supply routes for each invading Clan as they move away from the Main Space Station where the Main Re-supply fleet from the Clan Home Worlds would unload their cargo which would then be then be “bulk-broken” into individual allotments for each individual Invasion Fleets Re-supply Feet. – however, where I have placed my Hadrian’s Wall this is a little further out than this.
There are no military factories etc along the exodus road (as they are within the Clan Home worlds) – The exodus road contains space stations only with two HPG dishes and the odd Naval base.
If I have anything on the ground it will be for Naval / Space Station personnel R&R facility or the odd mining excavation / smelter where very rare minerals / gems were discovered or food and water production facilities for the Navy / Space Stations and the odd depository with anything and everything to keep the exodus road open (spare parts, fuel, food etc.).
So for the IS Clans at this stage they have to form their own council and for the most part they have to come up with a unified decision as to what to do next. For the Crusdaer Wolf, Horses, Steel Viper, Jaguars and the Falcons – I believe it would be a flip of the coin decision as if they would decide it more prudent to either break the Tukayyid Agreement and then continue with the invasion (to prove to the Home Clans their error as to their warrior superiority) OR/- attack Hadrian’s Wall and those Home Clans garrisoning it for their perfidy.
No Matter what they decide as their future aim they need to establish a Clan enclave now (including industries, food, people (serfs), etc.) and then they need to turn it into a fortress from which they can use it as a springboard against whomever they decide.
Thus they would need to shrink the number of their existing held worlds into something more defenceable so that they could then hold onto a dedicated industrial base to service the military etc. They also need to link up the two half of the invasion corridors – so this will mean going through the Bears and the FRR to achieve this – the question is where? Along the edge periphery is probably the most advantageous as it will also allow them to relocate any Deep Periphery assets back into their new combined enclave – however some of the more deeper Clan Held worlds (Those Closest to Terra and those closest to Hadrian's Wall) will have to be sacrificed to achieve the link up.
Whist the unification battles start between the two invasion corridors - They could also establish a second dedicated force with one aim – go straight for the neck as it were - a Head Hunter diversionary strike against the SLDF command base of operations!
If they are able to achieve the destruction of the SLDF command – this wold push back any combined invasion by the new SLDF into the IS Clan Territory by years!
Once this has been achieved - it is back to the question of which target is the primary target - Terra or Hadrian's Wall.
As for the Wolves –I could see Ulric splitting the wolves again with the establishment of the Clan Enclave – as half (Crusaders) will join the new crusader enclave /attack the SLDF Command base etc – the other half now under Phelan are to join the Star League via the Kells on Arc Royal.
Wick, I think you are correct Diamond Shark would join the Star League and I believe the Lyrans would welcome them in due to their similar understanding of the importance of commerce.
As those Hell's Horses units within the IS they have also been abjured, and are a wild card – they could stay within the new Clan enclave or they could do something completely outside the box – disappear only to reappear some-where else within the Deep Periphery or the IS only to establish their own realm - such as annexing one of the existing periphery powers.
So, thus over time (a jump of 10 years) there could be …. Outermost Deep Periphery – Hadrian’s Wall
Then coming in closer there could be the Deep Periphery which would have areas controlled by either - Star League / FC / DC / Ghost Bear and FRR upon many worlds with military and civilian colonists. Something similar to the Chaos March - lots of new states and all at each others throat.
Just past the periphery there is a new Crusader Clan enclave that is still debating about their primary target – Home Wold Clans or Terra.
Then the four IS powers - FC / FRR and Ghost Bears / DC / Cats
Wick, I like your idea of an delineation line from Waypoint 31 to the Cluster later labelled A51 – can I suggest though we look at WW2 Italy – the many lines established by Kesselring. So there is a primary wall Hadrian’s and a secondary Gothic Wall after the ten years from the initial establishment of Hadrian’s Wall.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/18/19 10:23 PM)
|
Requiem
06/19/19 10:34 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Suggestions for Clan assault upon SLDF Command
SLDF – Command Base – Combat Information Centre - Planetary Location – Fort Loudon
Within Fortress Loudon a Castle Brian that remained operational during the Succession Wars and the Clan Invasion – formerly the home of the original SLDF Unit – 123rd Infantry Division
This Fortress was subsequently expanded to include facilities for the entire new SLDF Command – and includes a variety of new emplacement weapons
The Planet is to be defended at a minimum of four to five elite units at any one time
DC – One of the Swords of Light
FC – Either the Davion Guards or Lyran Guards
ComGuards – Unknown
FWL – Silver Hawk Irregulars (as an example)
FRR – First Drakons (at the time of the Clan assault assume this is the new merged unit - baptism by fire!)
and also include a mercenary unit - if you have your own put it in or one of the Heavy Hitters - Grey Death, Snord's, Wolfs Dragoons, ILH etc. (a wild card no one was expecting to be there - and yet they are there)
Plus there should be multiple spaceports and airfields (fighters)
Navy – IS forces and Clan Forces – GM to determine what is available on both sides.
Also assume for this Clan head hunter unit each Clan are to supply their force – which when combined will become the Clan Task Force tasked with destroying the facility and killing the SLDF Command personnel.
I would assume they are to come out of a pirate point with an immediate release of Drop-ships – followed by an immediate combat drop within ‘Mech Pods. As both fighter units attempt to gain air superiority.
Each Clan will be assigned to assault one of the Planetary Defenders – however a combined elemental assault unit will dropped right on top of the Castle Brian.
However, the Castle will be defended by new IS power Armour units from all the planetary Defenders - causing a mass battle between the two groups.
Thus this battle will be on the scale of Luthien and will be needed to be planed accordingly – you also could have Focht / Victor or one or more of the other major players on the field. Just to keep it interesting.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/19/19 10:44 PM)
|
ghostrider
06/19/19 11:48 PM
66.74.60.165
|
If you stick with the nuking of clan forces, I would think the clans would retaliate with over whelming force. But with this, doubt the Bears and Cats would join the League.
I would think coming in with as much of the space assets they can scrounge, they wipe out anything that isn't clan, and just bombard the hell out of the world. Then spike it even further, buy making sure the surface is molten or completely fused, so nothing can live. All possible air vents and exits glassed.
The concept of using nukes against a foe would drive this as it is without honor.
But then, if you have the large aero wings taking out and holding jump points and supply depots, how would the clans even get anything of size there? The SLDF would have anything within jumping radius mined/guarded, so at least they could get off a warning to the main HQ.
There would definitely be a few around the HQ, maybe staging for further raids, or advances in the war.
It would also stand that more then a few battle stations be built around and supporting the HQ world.
Now with logic stated and out there, I would think there would be more then a few garrison forces as well, such as vehicles and fighters that aren't attached to anything that would be sent out. Might even be a warship or two as well. Vtols and Artillery should be in numbers and sited in.
Now, elite units is what? Companies? Regiments? Brigades? There is a huge difference between them. The entire Sword of Light could be there with Brigades being the unit. I know it sounds picky, but it would change the entire composition and how the defenders would fight.
|
Requiem
06/20/19 02:01 AM
1.158.130.13
|
No, I am not sticking with nukes – this is why I came up with the Second Ayres Conference and its subsequent ratifications of the original treaty concerning warships presence to populated planetoids and the restriction upon orbital bombardments , thus for this story line they are still in force.
I would therefore believe that a society that has demonstrated its willingness towards nuclear restraint would receive the respect and honour of the some of the Clans – first amongst then the Bears and the Cats – and one of the reasons they joined the Star League.
Thus the idea of an orbital bombardment upon the SLDF CIC will become irrelevant.
As for battle-sats – yes I could see them having about four of them from the DCMS for anti-Drop-ship operations. But I would also believe the Clans have their own Big Wings by now as well as their own variant of the aerospace ship-killer missile.
And as for getting above the fortress world – as stated previously - the Clans are using a Pirate Jump-point above the planet that is unknown to the SLDF.
As for the Fenris Teams operating within the deep periphery – by this stage I believe there would still be only a limited number of forces operating (no more than 20 for for both the FC and the DC). That said the Clans should still have some of their facilities operational within the Deep Periphery as Fenris has been unable to find them all – plus their ability to move within the Deep Periphery has not been restricted unduly – thus they can still transfer a number of these facilities over time into their new enclave.
It is hard to believe the Fenris teams could find them all or even blockade their return access into the IS – they might get lucky with a very few but considering the vastness of space I doubt they would be able to get them all.
Yes – the command centre would be protected by every form of weapons – vehicles, VTOL, Artillery etc. But how many units would all the Clans be bringing if in my opinion the elite units would not total more than 5 RCTs + additional aerospace big – wing support units + a small fleet of no more than three IS warships + no more than a single regiment belong to an unknown Mercenary unit that has just arrived for …. Either ….
1. Staging for a raid within clan space – thus they are within the precincts of one of the adjacent star-ports used to service the Facility; or
2. Undergoing additional anti-clan training as an OpFor unit against one of the defending units – thus they are about 100 to 200 Km away (or more) from the fortress when the initial Clan task Force presence becomes known. i.e they will not arrive until about 1 or 2 hours into the battle.
Thought of these just to keep it interesting …. Depending on how you want to run it … or you could add your own restriction to the game.
Please also note the 5 IS RCT elite units will have a majority of new IS onmi designs - 80%+ for each unit.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
06/20/19 03:05 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Hopefully everyone realises the Clans Objectives ….
Elemental First Primary Target - HPG Dish – without which the SLDF’s CICs ability to respond to a mass invasion of the FRR / GhostBear Dominion will be minimised.
Also due to historical animosity, if a Commander of a specific region is not of 'your' units original House there may be “issues” when it comes to receiving orders, where as when orders are received from the CIC they would be acted upon with no questions asked.
Thus timing to respond to any situation (requesting reinforcements for example) or even knowing about the situation as a whole may become a serious issue for the IS SLDF units stationed around Clan Space.
As for the issue of using the Black Boxes as a backup transmission, they will take days to reach their intended target and be limited in the size of the message.
Elemental Second Primary Target – Commanding Officer Focht, as well as any senior officers and intelligence officers / computer mainframes etc within the Fortress – without which could stall the future invasion plans by the new SLDF against all remaining belligerent Cans. – They would also have orders that upon completion of the mission they are to burn the Fortress to the ground!
‘Mech Units Alternate Target are to be considered to be all their defending elite forces – they are to inflict severe damage as long as the Clan forces are able to remain as a viable force and they are to remain in the field until the two primary targets have been neutralized – they are then retreat in good order.
Aerospace Fighters Alternate Assignments – 1. Drop-ship insertion Protocol – 2. Gain Air superiority – 3. upon completion of elemental mission and successful extraction they are to turn the remaining fortress into rubble – 4. assist with evacuation.
What is occurring elsewhere in the IS whilst the invasion is occurring?
As all belligerent Clans are invading along a broad front, from the Periphery border to deep inton the FRR / Ghost Bear Dominion (from both the Jags and Wolf space) in an effort to link the two invasion corridors.
Reduced information is being received within the CIC as well as their ability to respond to this information as to what is exactly happening within the FRR and the Ghost Bear Dominion..
Many raids are occurring throughout the IS putting both the Lyran half of the FC and the DC into a state of uncertainty. With the absence of information from the SLDF CIC many areas are now becoming chaotic due to the level of uncertainty about what is transpiring elsewhere.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/20/19 06:24 AM)
|
Requiem
06/20/19 10:20 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Hadrian’s Wall – basic overview
Note:- All Aerospace fighters will be issued with ship killer missiles whilst on patrol and will be authorised to attack any target where the chance of inflicting severe damage whilst at the same time maintaining the security of their assignment – i.e. They will not attack if it could lead to a security issue, until additional forces can be assigned to satisfactorily deal with the threat.
Note:- Merchant Caste to maintain strict protocols regarding logistics / replacement personnel assigned duties at all times – Schedule – Identification Protocols etc.
Note:- Each individual Clan will be assigned a region of space within the primary and secondary wall to ensure no incursion by utilizing the exodus road to reach the Clan’s Home Worlds / to ensure the abjured clans remain in exile permanently.
Third Line of Defence Systems – System Early Warning Satellites – within remote and non-strategic systems;
Satellites with the ability to detect incoming Jump-ships – determine its entry point as well as its approximate tonnage then automatically relay that information, via an advanced Clan ‘Black Box”, to its assigned naval space station.
Ground Installations:- None
Second Line of Defence Systems - Space Stations (Small / Medium) – within second tier systems of importance;
Multiple stations have been emplaced within key systems which have the ability to detect incoming Jump-Ships throughout their assigned System – they have incorporated a HPG communications system – One Squadron worth of fighters have been assigned to each station in addition to two Cats-Eye – awacs - deep reconnaissance craft.
In the event of an unauthorised entry into the system the Space Station is to contact their Naval Space Station. A Cats Eye and three fighters will then be assigned to gather a deep reconnaissance identification of the incoming vessel – the Cats-eye will then transmit this information back to the space station, who will then transfer it to the Naval Station.
Ground Installations: - Minor Agricultural, Technician or Scientific Caste Facilities.
Primary Line of Defence Systems - Naval Defence Space Station (Large) – within primary systems and to cover their assigned position;
A Naval Station is assigned to a system together with a fleet of warships commensurate with the importance / number of systems they have been assigned to.
Four Aerospace fighter squadrons are permanently attached to the station.
In the event a warning message has been detected the Commanding Officer of the Facility will dispatch a commensurate amount of warships or other available forces equal to the threat.
On average a Naval Defence Space station will be assigned to cover an area that includes fifty or more third line systems and twelve second line systems.
They will on average be assigned six or more warships.
Garrison Installations:- Major Agricultural, Technical, Scientific or Military Caste Facilities together with all additional facilities, such as a major city to ensure its logistical requirements are maintained.
Within each Clans operational zone they will maintain a ready reactionary fleet that can be dispatched to any Naval Defence Space Station or second or even third line system within a minimum amount of time in the event of a detected major incursion.
There is no set base for this fleet they operate throughout their Clans Operational Zone as per the Khans orders.
On average these fleets would be from a dozen to even two dozen warships (This is dependent upon each of the individual Clans available warship resources).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/20/19 01:59 PM
66.74.60.165
|
I was thinking more along the lines of the Bastion Defense Station with upgrades. Not the Battlestats the DC uses.
The issue with stopping all word from getting out would be harder then described. Any jumpship in the system at the time of the invasion that wasn't neutralized could well jump out and send word. So there needs to be something to stop this. And there would be jumpships in system. If for no other reason, then bring in dropships to reinforce or removed items found by the other teams.
Also, the question of IF comstar would be making ship HPGs. This would make sense as they know how well the clans network was working during the initial invasion. WOB might as well.
And the question of if the clans would work together cohesively, or do their normal bidding to see who does what and when. I don't see some clans allowing others to gain anything if the first clan thinks they can do it themselves. Much like Tukyidd battle, only smarter on the clans part.
|
Requiem
06/20/19 08:14 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Ghostrider, yes I agree that a Defence Station could be incorporated.
I also agree that a Jump-ship could jump out with a message the world is under attack – however, by the time a relief force is dispatched I believe the Battle for the fortress would be well and truly over.
The Fortress HPG staff could have even sent a brief message out – advising regional commanders they are to assume control over their border area as the CIC has come under Clan attack.
However this returns to the idea as to accepting orders from a commander who is not from your home House. i.e. would a ‘FS’ unit newly assigned to the SLDF and has been paced along the border where a ‘DC’ officer is in command – would they obey any order from this person? (Robinson Rangers obeying an order).
This shows that care needs to be taken when assigning units to the SLDF and where they are ultimately assigned – but if you do not mix units how do you break the historical animosity between rival houses units? Ultimately, they need to work together as one SLDF.
Ultimately, the idea of stopping a Jump-ship would be difficult unless the Clans are able to place a warship at either normal jump points and they are able corral these Jump-ships quickly. It is an intriguing scenario that could be added to the game.
I also agree that sooner or later every House and ComStar will design a Flag-Ship model Warship with one or even two HPG installations and their own internal CIC to conduct fleet wide operations.
However, I would like to say, for the nature of this proposed game, this new warship class is still being constructed within ComStar’s Shipyards.
As for the Clans working together within this cohesive task force – bidding occurred earlier as to individual targets – who does what when – unlike Tukayyid they will all be engaging at the same time.
I would also like to ask a question – could the clans ever learn to work together for a common military goal? During the Huntress campaign you see all the Houses working together for a common goal – could the Clans also achieve this? Could they put aside their animosity and assist each other during a task force battle?
I know in the traditional sense you would say that this is impossible – but this is not a normal case, they have all been abjured, there is no hope for any future supply ships / resupply personnel thus for them to survive in the IS they may realise that they need to help each other.
And how scary would it be for the new IS SLDF that these Clans demonstrated for the first time a willingness to assist each other during the invasion – they demonstrated a more IS way of battling to achieve their common objectives?
All your preconceptions as to how you would fight the Clans would have to be re-evaluated before any invasion of the invasion corridor could be even contemplated.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/21/19 12:38 AM
66.74.60.165
|
I believe it is possible for the clans to work together, but the circumstances would be very limited. An IS invasion of the clan home worlds might do it, but not sure how unified it would be. The use of WMD's may well result in the same thing, but again, not sure how closely it would be.
As for the ones in the IS, I could see limited cooperation between them. Well at least the Wardens and those that joined the SLDF. The Falcons and Jaguars did for a limited amount and time, but that was to get the invasion going, and to show up the Wolves. But when Huntress was invaded, you seen how much support they did.
I would suspect the SLDF would have a few jumpships at pirate points around the system, just for this reason. Where as reinforcements probably wouldn't get there in under 2 weeks, if they could affect the outcome depends on how quickly it is over with.
Also, I would think all houses involved in operations from this base would have someone able to issue orders to their own troops, that would be part of the high command. I seriously doubt Liao forces would follow most FS commanders no matter who it was.
I will assume for this scenario, there would be no rapid response forces waiting to deal with attacks on the front lines.
A few questions do come up with this though. Do the IS have clantech in their forces? This will go a long ways to countering the clans, meaning more clan forces needed.
How many and how much of the military of the clans would be involved?
I would think the clans would have had extra production in things like dropships, fighters and jumpships before considering this.
|
Requiem
06/21/19 12:54 AM
1.158.130.13
|
So, how could the Abjured IS Clans come together, to work together, upon a common task force mission? This could only happen with a visionary il-Khan … a new il-Khan …. But who?
With their notification – becoming abjured from the Clans – these IS Clans then meet to discuss their failures and how they can survive – forget the past and embrace the future … establish a new il-Khan …
However, just prior to this conclave Ulric’s intention of splitting Clan Wolf into two came into fruition – the Wardens with Phelan and onto Arc Royal to become part of the SLDF.
And during this shattering of the Clan Ulric died in combat.
But who can we say took command of the Crusaders?
What if I suggested that Natasha Kerensky, the Black Widow herself, took the post of Khan of the Wolf and then she took the post of il-Khan of the IS Clans.
It was she who reformed the Clans just as her ancestor once did to ensure their survival ….
And it was upon her orders and her vision that they form the Clan’s Enclave – and to ensure its establishment she ordered a simultaneous assault upon the FRR and the Ghost Bear Dominion by a combined assault force originating from the Clan Wolf space and from Clan Smoke Jaguars space at the same time by all the Clans within their respective invasion corridor, with the aim of linking the two corridors together from the edge of the periphery as far down as achievable.
And not only this assault but a simultaneous assault by a united Clan Task force assault upon the CIC of the new IS SLDF – not only to demonstrate their strength but also with the Death of Focht and his command staff time the establishment and fortification of their new Realm.
And with everyone’s eyes firmly fixed on the battles raging in the IS she uses ‘slight of hand’ to send her merchants and technicians out into the Deep Periphery to acquire as many hidden Clan facilities and repositories of technology and armaments and return to the new Clans Enclave.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
06/21/19 01:43 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Ghostrider, in response your post above ….
First, let us assume the IS clans have, with the announcement of being abjured from Clan Society, split along political lines – Wardens / Crusaders
As evidenced by Clan Wolf (refer above)
Second, I believe the Battle of Fort Loudon’s SLDF CIC will be over one way or another in under 24 hours – this is a surgical strike.
Third, as stated previously, yes there will still be inter House command problems – though the issue regarding House Liao is a non-issue – they no longer exist due to the war of ’39.
As for the issue of Rapid Response Forces – yes these forces exist – however if they do not receive orders to activate from the CIC, as to where to go and who they will be engaging and what the aim of the mission is – they are just another Garrison Force.
As for Clantech – these are elite units assume they are heavily modified units with a minimum of anywhere between 50-75% Clantech.
As for who is involved – go along Crusader political lines- unfortunately time has run out for the IS Clans they have to Act soon otherwise they will find themselves isolated and unable to survive.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Wick
06/21/19 05:19 PM
45.43.104.179
|
Quote:
So, how could the Abjured IS Clans come together, to work together, upon a common task force mission? This could only happen with a visionary il-Khan … a new il-Khan …. But who?
With their notification – becoming abjured from the Clans – these IS Clans then meet to discuss their failures and how they can survive – forget the past and embrace the future … establish a new il-Khan …
However, just prior to this conclave Ulric’s intention of splitting Clan Wolf into two came into fruition – the Wardens with Phelan and onto Arc Royal to become part of the SLDF.
And during this shattering of the Clan Ulric died in combat.
But who can we say took command of the Crusaders?
Canon establishes Lincoln Osis as effectively the leader of the Crusuder movement of the remaining invading clans following the deaths of folks like Elias Crichell and Vandervahn Chistu in the Refusal War. If this scenario takes place after Refusal War but before Bulldog, he's the obvious choice. He's been Khan much longer than Natasha Kerensky or Marthe Pryde.
Of technical note, the leadership of the Crusader movement of the overall Clans may have fallen to Asa Taney instead of Osis, but given abjuration of the invading clans, he's out of the picture. Please note though that he is a strong Neg vote for the concept of an impassable Hadrian's Wall, and would make a very serious Trial of Refusal - possibly a several cluster sized bid (which is highly uncommon for a Grand Council vote not of the Annihilation/Absorbtion kind.) Depending exactly how you handle the kind-of-there, kind-of-not situations of the Sharks and Horses, they could be Neg votes in the council as well. I'd suspect the Horses wouldn't risk much more than a few trinaries in refusal, but the Sharks would if they're about to be stripped of their entire homeworld assets.
I think you need to consider the Grand Council treating the two elements of this story as different votes.
Abjuration:
Invading Clans are all Negs.
Non-Invading are all Affs.
Pretty simple vote based on clans affected. Assume that Clan Smoke Jaguar will win the bid for Refusal, and be willing to put forth a whole Galaxy in defense. Not sure who wins the bid to uphold the vote. (Star Adder would be the obvious choice, but they'd be busy with Absorbing the Burrocks and in poor position to commit enough forces to enforce the decision. Coyote seems the next obvious, but their support of the Dragoon Compromise and friendship with the turncoat Clan Wolf would make the other Clans wary of commitment. I think the duty would fall to Goliath Scorpion or Cloud Cobra, and they'd demand - and receive - Huntress as the prize for risking a significant portion of their touman to uphold a council vote.)
Hadrian's Wall:
Ice Hellion: Neg
Diamond Shark: Probably Neg, unless assurances given to allow time to vacate property or trade it away
Hell's Horses: Maybe either way
Steel Viper: Maybe either way. (Whichever gives them the one-up on Jade Falcon for being booted out of the occupation zone. Probably yes, if they can claim JF enclaves before the others but not sure this would be enough as they'd forever be giving up long-term revenge.)
All the others are probably Aff, though Crusader Khans may vote Neg on the basis of keeping the door open for a future invasion.
Almost certainly to be refused by Clan Ice Hellion and no one else out bidding them - they may even put as many as three clusters on the table. Clan Coyote can probably be the upholder here, but they'll be claiming the Hellion enclaves on Foster and/or mining rights of discovered worlds in the Hadrian's Wall picket area.
On the bright side, you've effectively crippled the Crusader movement in the homeworlds with the Falcons, Jaguars, and remaining Wolves abjured, the Vipers still stinging from a humiliating retreat from the Inner Sphere, and the Hellions losing face in a Trial of Refusal. You've still got many Crusaders left, but they're all busy minding their own business (Star Adders and Burrocks) or not effective leaders of the Crusader movement (Fire Mandrill, Blood Spirit) joining the foiled Vipers and Hellions.
|
Requiem
06/21/19 07:51 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Wick, Yes I agree with you, if this was using the majority information we know from Canon what you are suggesting is a very reasonable, rational and well thought out argument.
However, what I am considering is a broad new concept within Clan society which will require a complete juxtaposition in Clan laws, customs and norms as an Alt History (or more accurate an Alt. Universe within the Multi Verse.) As such the people whom you have come to know through the canon stories do not have the same personalities – consider them a little less rational and more human in their thought processes.
My ultimate aim therefore is to try and iron out some of the more blatant ‘issues’ that were raised within the canon story.
What I am suggesting is this ….
- First there was a process to determine involvement in the invasion - for those found ‘lacking’, politically would they (their Khans and sa-khans) not hold a grudge against those who were allowed – and if these feelings were left to fester would they not become toxic .
- During the invasion many Clans began to ‘lag behind’ – would some ‘arm-chair-general’ the invasion – if they do not state it opening they may be think it - if it was my Clan was in the invasion we would have never lagged behind! ….. further destroying the relationship between the haves (on Invasion) and have nots (stay at home)
- Then we have Tukayyid – how many would even considered this challenge by ComStar, and worse yet when the Clans loose.
Here let me take a step back and include the following about the Clans … my thought process
- They are Spartans – an ultimate Warrior Culture, who’s ruling warriors must demonstrate their superiority for every second of their life – a belief that stems from their genetic purity and their martial skill – demonstrated in hundreds of battles;
- They have established a Totalitarian / Communist government where a very small council (the 0.001%)who determines the face of the majority (99.999%);
- In such a society if a warrior demonstrates weakness – would they not be shunned / ostracised by the majority?
- They are vying for the ultimate prize – il-Clan for all time.
- Those that are going are the best of the best for the entire Clans that they have to offer.
- And then Tukayyid ….
- At this stage politically and mentally would you not only have a chance for revenge but how can you as a warrior reconcile what has happened with your view of the universe – You are the ultimate warrior race – genetically pure – warriors of hundreds of victories over hundreds of years - and yet you failed to a bunch of free-born sudo-priests who have never fought a single battle since before the exodus! Would not your hatred boil over just a little at the thought of such a shame – your forces have won victory after victory – you are genetically pure and yet somehow the best of the best have fallen?
- How do you reconcile these different views? There must be something wrong! And at this stage would you not believe that which is wrong / weak / failure must be excised less it taint the whole of Clan society.
- Would they (the Home Clans) at this stage begin to consider that the IS Clans have somehow become infected – that has somehow weakened their martial prowess - as the reason for their failure.
- What else could be the reason for their failure – either the IS warriors are better fighters than they are – but how is that possible? The IS Clans are they not genetically pure, do they not have the ultimate weapons of war – thus the fault MUST be due to those IS Clans – their prowess must have reduced somehow.
- At this stage, all throughout history, where societies have iron clad belief systems that have been rocked to the core they usually adopt the most stupid answer as the one ‘truth’ behind the failure and accepted this as fact for which the fault occurred – despite it being total BS. Most closed mind societies cannot handle the truth – thus there needs to be an excuse / invented truth that can justify the error in a way that will still uphold their belief system.
Thus if the IS Clans are now somehow “infected” due to their proximity to the IS – which justifies their reduced martial prowess / destroyed their genetic superiority - they must be excise them lest they infect the remaining genetically pure!
Thus the IS Clans can no longer get a say in what must happen next – they must be gotten rid of one way or another!
So how do you do that without getting infected yourself – you isolate the victim! And this is what was done.
All remaining Home Clans vote Yes
Those infected get isolated and no say whatsoever – they are now the honoured dead who have shown the Home World Clans there is a virus within the IS that can destroy their genetic superiority.
“Let us all Hail those that died to show us the endemic taint prevalent within the IS!”
All remaining home clans can say they have saved themselves from whatever has destroyed the IS Clans genetic superiority – as evidenced by the failure at Tukayyid.
Yes I know it sounds very silly, but no one ever said being rational was part of the human psyche, and when you consider some of the issues - even during the later 20th Century and even now that being debated - it is not as so far-fetched as you might first believe for a closed warrior race society to believe the only way their forces could have failed is if they have somehow become tainted.
So with the failure of Tukayyid – the Ghost Bears leaving and taking everything with them – they have shown the way forward – isolation from the infected to ensure the purity of those remaining behind.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/21/19 08:41 PM
66.74.60.165
|
What if I suggested that Natasha Kerensky, the Black Widow herself, took the post of Khan of the Wolf and then she took the post of il-Khan of the IS Clans.
This would assume the Refusal war didn't go the way it did. Natasha died when she fought Joanna on Twycross.
Would the home clans have held it against the Bears and Cats for joining the new Star League?
Would some of them have done the same?
It is very possible the clans would go into a small civil war, as this point came to the forefront. The clans main goal was to reform the League, though I will admit, it was supposed to be a clan effort to do so. Without invading the homelands of the clans, it should have had an issue where the clans tried the batchall approach to taking over the League. Trials of Greivence comes to mind right now, but even a trial of position might be called for. Make the leader show they know how to fight.
And no. Might makes right doesn't work well.
The wolves are a very different story, as Vlad in the canon line, did NOT destroy the bloodnames that went with Phelan. He filled them with Crusader wolves, but that doesn't solve that issue well. The blood named could well call for those of the same bloodname to fight each other for the right.
On a side note, the wolves did have clan bloodnames they could use, from winning the absorption of at least Clan Widowmaker and part of the Wolverines if I recall. With this, they could increase their power base by having more bloodnamed warriors.
|
Requiem
06/22/19 01:03 AM
1.158.130.13
|
What I am suggesting is that the Refusal War did not occur at all …
The Home Clans have now become isolationists … they do not want any contact with the IS …. I also would not put it past them that they are currently undergoing a purge within the Clan’s Home Worlds to ensure any taint of the IS is removed, “permanently”.
So unless any of the IS Clans attempt to return to the ‘Home Worlds’ their former compatriots will want nothing to do with them – Thus any IS force from any Clan or House Unit will be killed on site.
What I am proposing is that the Home World Clans are now thoroughly irrationality society – considerate to be something like McCarthyism on Steroids.
Even the Scientist Caste are going along with the program because if they don’t they fear they will be purged next.
Thus if you want a trial of grievance … ok, but the suspicion that you must also be tainted could be a real consideration …. and we all know what happens to the infected, don’t we?
As for blood names – if the genes remained within the Clan Home Worlds they should be safe. However any gene source material was sent to the IS – under no circumstances would that material be allowed to be used to create any new children the risk that it has somehow been infected is too great – purge it!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/22/19 12:46 PM
66.74.60.165
|
There is a point that should be addressed. Except for the Bears, all the invading clans had large chunks in the home areas. How would that be addressed?
The Cats joined the League, but I don't remember them moving their civilians into the IS.
Which leads to the question of if the invading clans had enough forces to stop any such abjuring of their clans in the IS. Given the prospect of gaining ranks by removing those that failed in the IS, they may well go along with the abjuring of the IS forces. But that does lead to a very dangerous concept. A few units were the premier of their clans. To abjure them, means destroying some of your own history and glory.
I am going to assume there is no resistance in the home front to removing the failed invasion units. I know there would be some, as a few were looking forward to being called into the IS and do what the others could not.
A complete removal would destroy their own forces as well, since the genetic material for their warriors will have been mixed with those abjured. Would that taint their names as well?
|
Requiem
06/22/19 05:31 PM
1.158.130.13
|
As for the IS Clan’s holdings on the Clan Home Worlds – lost to the Home Clans – new trials of possession were arranged and fought.
As for the Cats transferring their entire population to the IS - this is just creative writing on my part, to allow a new realm within the IS be created the Cats Enclave.
No, I am confident with the way I am going, yes I am removing Refusal War, the destruction of the Jags, the Battles upon Huntress et al. – However, sooner or later I had to make a major departure from Canon and I believe this is the best point as I have been railing against the Jags being the only Clans to fall …
As for resistance against the “failed invasion Clans” – within the IS there will always be resistance, many units were able to act independently and engage them when they were attacking the CIC / forming their enclave / sending their technicians into the Deep Periphery.
and within the Clan Home Worlds – yes this will require “resistance” as their fellow clans decide to purge all the failed warriors form the Clan home Worlds – most will die in ‘glorious’ battle protecting their assigned holding – though some may flee and turn bandit …. Or even try to establish their-own little fiefdom upon a “hidden world”.
As for Genetic material – this is not about the source material – it is about its geographical location – if it had proximity to the IS then it is tainted – purge it!
This is now an irrational response to unexpected occurrence – introduce genetic purity checks to ensure you have not been infected by those who remained within the IS too long?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/22/19 09:55 PM
66.74.60.165
|
In the canon, a few leaders began to think contact with the IS was going to go badly for the clans, even if they had taken Terra. The corruption was that complete, and no matter what, it would tainted the clans anyways.
Would you bring any clan warriors or units back to the home worlds? Some that are so sick of their leaders inefficiency, or worse, becoming tainted with the corruption the IS has.
Khan Critchell comes to mind. No warrior skills left to him, but yet not being retired comes to mind. The whole Aidan story is a tale of a trueborn posing as a freeborn, then doing a second trial of position in the Falcon touman. This should have sickened most warriors before he became a hero. I would think trials, both official and unofficial, would have come so hard and fast, that he would not be in any shape to fight on Tukyidd.
Even going as far as recalling, or removing the il-khan when they Jaguars fell behind the 'inferior' wolves.
Not sure, but the invading clans had a large portion of the merchant's jumpships. Would they have been recalled before the abjuration? That may tip off the invasion clans something was up.
|
Requiem
06/22/19 10:47 PM
1.158.130.13
|
All clan Units, this includes the merchant Jump-ships, that were assigned and had taken up their position within the IS are now considered to be tainted – there will be no coming home for them ….. ever.
They will be purged on site!
All IS Clans must now adapt to their circumstances – if they remain Hidebound I cannot see their new enclave surviving for very long. They need to adapt, overcome ….
This therefore provides an opportunity to reforge the Clans somewhat ….
They can no longer treat their citizens as serfs – if this continues it will lead to a civil war that their neighbors will exploit – they may even now require a new Caste – The Diplomatic Corp who will need to work closely with the merchants and the warriors to survive.
Some of their traditions will therefore have to change – as well as the introduction of new traditions.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Wick
06/24/19 06:21 PM
45.43.104.179
|
Quote:
What I am suggesting is this ….
- First there was a process to determine involvement in the invasion - for those found ‘lacking’, politically would they (their Khans and sa-khans) not hold a grudge against those who were allowed – and if these feelings were left to fester would they not become toxic .
- During the invasion many Clans began to ‘lag behind’ – would some ‘arm-chair-general’ the invasion – if they do not state it opening they may be think it - if it was my Clan was in the invasion we would have never lagged behind! ….. further destroying the relationship between the haves (on Invasion) and have nots (stay at home)
- Then we have Tukayyid – how many would even considered this challenge by ComStar, and worse yet when the Clans loose.
All of these points are exactly what happened. The left behind Clans were rather irked, but in fairness, they had only their own failure to blame. Some harbored a dislike that Clan Wolf was forced to be an invading Clan, and then did so well. Others miffed at being bested by their competitors for slots, or being taken advantage of during the Harvest Trials. (For example, the Hellions harbored a grudge against the Bears after being narrowly beaten by them for the invasion spot, then expanded that grudge to all invading Clans after the Falcons, Wolves, and Jaguars took many of their warriors in Harvest Trials.) Almost all of the home Clan Khans were boasting that a failure like Tukayyid wouldn't have happened to their Clan.
I'll concede the Khans were often irrational, but rarely destructively irrational. If you're banking on an Inner Sphere taint that must be destroyed like a virus, and every Clanner who had visited the Inner Sphere must be annihilated or abjured, then the scope is rather profound. I believe most, if not all seventeen, extant Clans had observers on Tukayyid. Wolf and Goliath Scorpion both had warriors with Wolf's Dragoons who returned to the homeworlds in 3009, and some of these likely introduced genetic material into later generations. Even if the major invading Clans are booted and the other Clans are willing to forfeit their few IS visitors (some of which may have been the Khans or saKhans themselves), you're left with complications. The Scorpions have almost got to be a Neg vote on this basis because they may be at risk of losing a large portion of current warriors and sibkos, despite doing exactly what the Grand Council had ordered them to do (and doing so honorably.) The Horses would lose a Galaxy or two of warriors who had carved out that little three-world invasion zone (unless undone in your story.) The Vipers would be facing extinction with no Inner Sphere territories to which they could return (unless you're undoing that bit of canon as well.) The Snow Ravens may be forfeiting the spacecraft they'd loaned to other Clans (particularly the Falcons) if you're including material on top of people. So now you're talking nine or ten Clans Neg (all seven Tukayyid clans plus CGS and CHH, and maybe CSV as well) to eight or fewer Clans Aff, and the motion would fail the Grand Council. And a Clan or Clan Warrior simply does not try to Refuse a failed vote on Annihilation/Abjuration, as to do so effectively places yourself and your bloodlines at risk of same: the loser of a Trial of Refusal basically inherits the original punishment. Politically, the votes just aren't there as you've written it. I'm not against the idea of abjuring the seven major invading Clans, but the method of abjuring anyone and everyone tainted by a visit to the Inner Sphere puts too many Clans into the loser bucket to pass a single vote needed to do so. You've got to scale it back a bit to ensure a safe landing for the Horses and/or Scorpions to have the votes, and omitting any jumpship or warship taints. Now maybe you follow Brett Andrews' pattern and do it in stages - first by lopping off the major invading Clans in one vote, and then the Horses and Scorpions in later motions - but that seems tricky. I don't think it was good writing in canon, and it probably wouldn't be now either.
And you still have to contend with a Refusal to the permanent Hadrian's Wall type of separation from a rabidly Crusader Clan like the Ice Hellions. I've no doubt they, and likely a few other Clans, would believe themselves so superior that they'd feel immune to the taint/virus that doomed the previously invading Clans. The Clan Warrior ego and sense of near-invincibility just shouldn't let them be afraid of something imaginary like an Inner Sphere taint. Each Clan thinks themselves superior to the others, so just because the invading Clans fell victim to it doesn't mean they'll think it would happen to theirs, too: its much easier to believe that the invading Clans were simply weak and that a stronger Clan is needed to continue the invasion. So I still don't think you get Hadrian's Wall without a major Trial of Refusal, and the Hellions seem like the most potent obstacle based on canon similarities.
|
Requiem
06/25/19 12:14 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Yes, I agree they are often irrational but they have been destructively irrational in the past … Wolverines (not the historical version but the truth as outlined in the Novel).
Thus I would like to say that it is not beyond reason to believe they may go down the McCarthyism Trials scenario – reds under your beds historical analogy – but in this case they establish an isolationist approach to save their empire.
I would like to say that if warriors returned in 3009, 40 years before the invasion you could say there is no evidence of the malady that affected future generations and as such they are quite safe from the purge.
Clan tradition dictates when a Clan is weak they should be absorbed – Scorpions Trial of Absorption and as the Horses have lost their galaxies – can we thus say these two are subsequently absorbed by each other – Clan “Chimera”? who knows ….
(Scorpion Horse? Or Horse Scorpion? …. So, Chimera is the only word that makes any sense if these two ever became one)
The Vipers will find their place within the Clan Enclave – Nat. K. will see to that!
The Snow Ravens are just going to have to accept the loss
What I am looking at is the larger Clans using their political weight / threat of annihilation to get their way – in addition to future promises – in addition all Home Clans will receive new worlds upon the Hadrian’s border – resources – new factories – new space stations – enlarging of all Home Clan Sibkos – Every home Clan will be receiving new territory, would they give that up if the larger Clans promised their security for the next 20 years so that they could rebuild?
Makes for an interesting question though – what would the sa-khans and khans do now if they were allowed to expand their empire? - where as it currently stands the area in the Clan Home Worlds are fixed and difficult to expand without incurring the enmity of another Clan.
So with this said would there even be any refusal battles?
All Home Clans obtain
- An increase in the area they hold;
- An increase in wealth – new resources – new industries – new space stations etc.;
- Over the next 20 years as the number of sibkos are increased multiple new Galaxies are expected to be created for each Clan;
And all with an agreement that for the next 20 years there shall be no absorption or annihilation.
What would be the best political step for each Home Clan – look at their situation now – or look at where they might be in the next 20 years.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Wick
06/29/19 11:15 PM
45.43.104.179
|
New worlds in the Hadrian's Wall area are not Terra.
I don't think there's anything that could be offered to the more rabid Crusader Clans to have them give up the dream of Terra. The Crusader philosophy is based on the Great Father's intention (or inferred intention) that the Clans would one day return the Inner Sphere and rebuild the Star League. For the Crusaders, it is their ultimate goal. Abandoning it is tantamount to asking the Clans to not follow Kerensky's vision anymore. It does not work so long as the Crusaders are in power.
I'm not against the Hadrian's Wall concept, and for some Clans like the Coyotes its a wonderful proposition, but it would be a very difficult thing to get past the Grand Council as a whole in the 3050s and is a sure bet to be Refused by one of the very Crusader Clans. And not just a token Refusal, but challenged with utmost seriousness on the part of the Crusaders (which is why I think it would be at least 2 or 3 clusters on both sides.)
Now, if you give it 15 or 20 years for opinions to change and the Crusader philosophy to wane and the Bastion philosophy to gain support, perhaps it can work. That's what happened in canon. But it can't be a spur of the moment thing without complete disregard for the motives of the majority of Clan warriors in the 3050s. The Crusaders are in power, and they aren't giving up Terra for -anything- until someone else shows them through military might (i.e., Operation Bulldog), they fail through their own attempts (Ice Hellions), or suffer tragic functional meltdown (Fire Mandrill, Burrock, Blood Spirit) Canon had to eliminate five Clans, occupy a sixth with the Absorbtion of one of those five, split a sixth, and eject seven more, all over the course of 20 years to make it happen.
|
Requiem
06/30/19 12:42 AM
1.158.130.13
|
Wick,
Question, how do we gauge the psychological impact of an event upon a society …
How do we gauge the effect of the defeat upon their strongest and most experienced clan warriors at Tukayyid?
The ComGuard has NEVER been in battle – they are as green as it comes - Their weapons have been locked away since the time of the exodus and has only just recently been allowed out for parade duty in front of many HPG’s throughout the IS.
How as a warrior society do you reconcile the fact that your most elite units failed overall to win given the enemy they were sent to fight?
Without getting into more the more recent tragedy – is it a Pearl Harbor moment?
The best were sent, and they failed! – what should have been a quick strike through to Terra has now stalled.
Given their (the Invasion Clans) abject failure to do what they were assigned to do what would the home clans decision to do next?
For me sitting on their hands and just watching what is going on in the IS would not be option.
All the IS Clans must be punished for their failure at the very minimum for this failure!
So if you don’t consider the option of becoming abjured – then mass wars of refusal / absorption upon the IS Clans to either remove them from their position of being allowed to contend for the right of becoming the IL-Clan, as they quite categorically failed against the Green ComGuard which proves they are not worthy to be allowed to contend for such a noble prize as that of becoming the Il-Clan – or their (the Invasion Clans) command has in someway become weak and must be replaced with a more capable leadership – thus absorb them and once they have been absorbed and a change of leadership established – continue on with the prosecution of the war to become the Il-Clan (and one more of those Home Clans is now also allowed to vie for the position of Il-Clan)
So at this stage given the clans warrior mentality (mongol) and when a small number of their members have shown weakness through absolute failure to an untested Army of green recruits - fighting in pre-exodus Mechs – there must be ramifications for this failure … the weakness must be purged less they infect the strength of the healthy .... for a Mongol (or any warrior culture throughout history) this point of view would be quite rational - you failed, thus you must be weak, and we do not allow the weak to be a member of our tribe - you must be gotten rid of one way or another!
In the Canon it was the refusal war Falcons Vs. Wolf.
However I would like to contend this is just too small a punishment - it does in now way demonstrate the true gravitas of such a failure upon the all the invasion Clans – For all those that failed / ended in a draw THEY MUST BE either abjured from the IS invasion corridor and return home in utter disgrace (and in the knowledge they have lost their candidacy to become the Il-Clan and be replaced by another more worthy Clan - which would result in a refusal war) or face a trial of absorption at the very minimum.
Those that won may be allowed to remain – however given Clan politics any excuse that could be manufactured to destroy the Wolf would be used against them for the actions of their Khan in this debacle.
Thus this is the only, in my opinion, way forward post Tukayyid – either all the IS Clans are abjured / replaced / absorbed by the Home Clans against the IS invasion Clans
Just sitting at home doing nothing is not what a warrior would do – only action and the spilling of blood could there be a closure to such a bitter defeat at the hands of such an inexperienced and ill-equipped force as that of the ComGuard.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/30/19 12:45 AM)
|
ghostrider
06/30/19 12:10 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The ComGuard has NEVER been in battle
They were not in a battle that large, but they have been in battle. Simulators can only do so much, and more then a few pilots were elite.
The Comgaurd was deployed to stop pirates from hitting their facilities when first introduced to the IS. They did attack the NAIS during the fourth war, so that shows their skills.
Now how do the rest of the clans deal with the failure?
They recall those that failed and make them laughing stocks of the clan society and give them the dezgra name.
Equipment would be confiscated, as it would be completely wasteful to leave the most advanced clan tech in the hands of bandits in such a large number.
There would be a shift in power, but doubt they would just kick the others out. And with that, nullify the treaty, or suggest one that all clans that weren't participants, fight. Each clan would suggest those that fought on Tukayyid were inferior. Most would not give up on trying to gain the genetic materials of those clans. The wolves were not a top clan just because of the Kerensky name. They had warriors that were the devil himself on the field. Ulric himself would be seen as a valued asset to any of the home clans. More then a few others as well.
The best of some clans, not all clans comes to mind. My clan is better then yours. The only reason we didn't make it is (excuse).
In the Canon it was the refusal war Falcons Vs. Wolf.
However I would like to contend this is just too small a punishment.
Huh? This war was fought to prevent the falcons from trying to reignite the invasion. This was not done at the councils demands. Unless you think it is some sort of punishment the developers put in there.
|
Requiem
06/30/19 06:59 PM
1.158.130.13
|
Yes, NEVER …
Simulators do not equate to battle, how does an advanced computer game, that is run from the safety of your Academy equate to the actual terror of battle upon an unknown world and an unknown environment – the pure terror of a first battle cannot be simulated! – You never know what you will do in battle until you are put in that situation.
Simulation is a very poor education tool in comparison to actual fighting ….
How many within the entire ComGuard fought pirates and how can you equate fighting pirates to that of a Clan Warrior – skill, ferocity, Machines …. everything is completely different, the shear terror they evoke ... remember what happened when you first fought the Clan .... Warhammer one shot .... the Clan Unit then guttered you Warhammer and after one turn you were left with a pile of scrap that was your Warhammer.... remember this?
Attacking NAIS – First they all died, so that experience died with them; Second, The Crown price within his Battlemaster - alone - was able to effectively corral their unit until help arrived in dribs and drabs from Team Banzai – thus showing their green inexperience …..
Have a look at what happened at the Battle of Kasserine pass (WW2) to an American green as green unit when engaging a battle hardened and very experienced German Force under the leadership of Rommel. Utter debacle does not begin to explain what happened …
Not only were their commanders green as it got but their troops were also – how can you expect green officers make the correct decision in battle? Is this not why you initially place them with a very experienced NCO who can iron out the bumps until he/she understands what is required.
Quesion: How does a warrior culture, such as the Clans, deal with failure?
Sorry to burst your bubble but in a warrior culture any sign of weakness cannot ever be tolerated!
Those that lost (and the Falcons who ended in a draw) have proven they are unworthy – the unworthy can NEVER become the il-Clan.
Would anyone ever consider a Clan who was defeated by the green ComGuards worthy of being allowed the right to compete for the title of il-Clan? I cannot believe in any warrior society they would still allow them to remain and to compete for the ultimate prize – they must PROVE they are still worthy – and if they are found lacking they must be removed!
Yes – the home Clans WILL see them as weak for this disgrace and they WILL act.
This again shows the game developers poor understanding of what they have created – they created the “Ultimate Warrior Society” – their culture, their society, their psychology, would demand that they act – and in so doing challenge the unworthy, those that failed for the right to prove themselves in combat, and in so doing the right to become il-Clan.
As I have stated – the refusal war is too small a punishment – it is punishing one of the only two clans that actually won against the ComGuard. So how is that punishing those Clans that LOST and the Falcons who despite ending in a draw – They did not win!
A Clan’s are supposed to be MONGOLS – a council of Khans and sa-Khans would demand the right to re-test the invasion clans as to their worthiness to become the il-Clan – Psychologically this is the only response to their failure – their entire culture is based upon the concept of the Trial – Trial of Position, Trial of Grievance, Trial of Refusal, Trial of Annihilation etc. etc.
The only logical response to this situation is a Trial by one Clan against another to prove they are worthy!
To believe the home Clans would just sit at home and just do nothing is ludicrous in the extreme.
“Ultimate Warriors” my petunias they are just fluff if they just sit and do nothing in a situation like this.
Action and a new Trial to prove your worthiness is the only response.
Again this just shows a lack of understanding as to what was created and is a way of insulating (favoritism to their pet Clans once more) the invading clans from the reality and gravitas of the situation which is caused by their failure.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/30/19 10:38 PM)
|
ghostrider
07/01/19 12:06 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The Com Guards, formally referred to as the ComStar Guards and Militia, was the military arm of ComStar. Kept hidden by the supposedly politically neutral organization until after the Fourth Succession War, the Guards were a force on par with the militaries of the Successor States.
Interesting. The wiki says they were on par with the house militaries. So the house militaries were green and never in combat?
Second. Warrior cultures do suffer military ineptness, since hiers are not always what they need to be. Oh wait. The Samori warriors killed any leaders that were not able to do the job. Ever time.
The Crown price within his Battlemaster - alone - was able to effectively corral their unit until help arrived in dribs and drabs from Team Banzai
Guess the book I read was written wrong. He did NOT stand alone. He fought with the wounded of several units until forces from around New Avalon could respond. He was never alone. He was one of the very few that was not wounded before the battle.
As I have stated – the refusal war is too small a punishment – it is punishing one of the only two clans that actually won against the ComGuard.
Punishment? The grand council nor the home clans had anything to do with this war. So how do you figure punishment? I consider it hobbling the clans.
Second. Clan wolf won. So only one of one clan won. The Falcons and the Bears got a draw. So that is two draws, one win.
Now where is it written the clans are Mongols? The ranking is set for it, but the mongols were destroyers of all they could reach. The mongols did not attack with equal or lesser forces. They hit with all they could. The did not leave an enemy alone that defeated them. They hit with larger forces. They were raiders that conquered those around them. Honor was internal to the armies. Not to anyone outside of that. So this comparison is wrong.
|
Requiem
07/01/19 01:22 AM
1.158.130.13
|
QUOTE: “The Com Guards, formally referred to as the ComStar Guards and Militia, was the military arm of ComStar. Kept hidden by the supposedly politically neutral organization until after the Fourth Succession War, the Guards were a force on par with the militaries of the Successor States”.
Comprehension of Statement Required- “the Guards were a force on par with the militaries of the Successor States” – This is referring to their size not experience level - where they were on par, size wise, with a House Unit and does in no way suggest they have the same experience of a house unit.
Clans are supposed to be the ultimate warrior culture – that includes strategy - whose roots are taken from the Mongol Empire and like the Samurai they too had seppuku – the DC defeating the Jags at the Battle of Wolcott Galaxy Commander Osis had one of his Elementals execute him for his failure.
Reference Page 88 – The Fourth Succession War – Military Atlas Volume 2 – January 3029 – January 3030
Battle September 10 – In it it clearly states that the Prince destroyed – Panther, Marauder, Griffin, Locust and Stinger BEFORE the walking wounded of Team Banzai arrived …. "arriving on the scene singly or in pairs, the ‘Mechs of Team Banzai eventually outnumbered the Commandos and turned the tide".
Cannon - he was initially alone.
Ghostrider, sorry but I think you are missing the point in that a warrior culture must constantly test an individual as well as their unit and their Clan’s ability. If the Clan they belong to shows any weakness / deviates from the norm in any way they will be attacked, via. a Trial of Possession, or to that of a Trial of Absorption or Annihilation depending upon the severity of the deviation.
What I am proposing is just the natural extension of their cultural rules by which all laws are derived.
Sorry the results are Wolf – Win; Bear – Win; Falcon – Draw all others loss.
As per the Canon writings - Mongols – Page 9 – The Clans Warriors of Kerensky book – Bottom Right hand corner last paragraph – “Nicholas borrowed from various historical eras to create the new society – among them the Mongol hordes of the thirteenth century ……”.
He also included …
The Shogunate Japan – but does not go on to explain which shogunate.
The twentieth-Century China – but does not go on to explain if it is early century, mid century or late century as each of these have vastly different characteristics.
However what he forgot is that cultural norms are passed down by the parents to the children and then subsequently to their children – we are all trapped by the historical and cultural norms that out progenitors install in us as children - how many of us remember the songs that were sung to us as children or the stories that were told to us about our cultural heroes – thus there will ever be a Davion, Kurita, Steiner, Marik, Liao and Cameron characteristics within the mix, that will rise up now and again.
So the comparison can be considered to be quite accurate, he desired for his warriors to revere the culture of the Mongols and that is what he got – all the good and all the Bad.
May I suggest you read about Genghis Khan (Born Temujin) – died in 1227 – However, for all he established the unified Mongol Empire ends in 1271! Yes they achieved great things and conquered vast areas of land – however without someone to hold it all together it just fell apart (infighting).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
|
|
Extra information
|
1 registered and 130 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 16420
|
|
|
|
|
|
|