Requiem
07/05/19 05:50 PM
1.158.130.13
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NL-35 With a cost of only 500,000 Million
Weight 700 tons
In comparison to a Long Tom Artillery cost 1,722,275 C-Bills
Can I ask why major cities / spaceports do not have fixed / hidden emplacement NL batteries to be used at ground level where you can create a kill box and funnel the enemy into a designated area to be hit with these bug zappers?
Even in a Castle Brian they should have multiple Ground Based Naval Lasers that each one could cover a designated arc field of fire as well as performing an anti-drop-ship role. These would then be emplaced behind retractable shields that are designed to protect it from either an EMP Warhead or even a Tactical WMD Strike.
This would require each facility to maintain their-own reactor for power – hidden deep within the center of the facility.
Then we see during the Jihad era that the WOB had even made then mobile upon large tracked vehicles
Can I then ask why a R&D teams within each great house did not create a weapon that war say half the power of a NL-35 much earlier in the game’s time-frame?
As per the Sarna Wiki the Extreme Range of NL-35 is 44 Hex or 1.32Km
However the NL 55 has an extreme range of 54 where each high altitude / space hex is 18,000 meters.
Can I ask what happened to reduce the NL-35 range so dramatically?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/06/19 01:14 AM
66.74.60.165
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Think the range was supposed to be set for space, but got ground based data put in there.
Much like the cost mistake in the post. The NL-35 is 500,000. Not 500,000 million. That is 500 billion. 
I had asked something similar, like having a NAC set up to fire thru a canyon pass that was the only ground way into a facility. The main reason for it not being used is because it can't target anything smaller then a dropship. Which made no sense if the weapon was set for straight and the pass was it's exit port so to speak.
The likely answer to why the Jihad could do it and not before is probably the same reason why other things couldn't be done, then came out later. The developers didn't want them out when they could stop the future ideas, then needed some super weapons to avoid the new threat from being wiped out as a meer nuisance.
Then again, if they could only target dropships, then any dropping units nearby would be blown out the sky, which prevents the base from being overwhelmed, or hot dropped on. Well until needed with the next menace.
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Retry
07/06/19 02:59 AM
174.70.184.145
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In 3025, the Federated Suns had 509 worlds.
The Lyrans and the Combine had 400+ each.
The FWL had 300+
The Capellans has 200+
There's quite likely in excess of 2,000 planets scattered throughout Battletech. Opposing fleets can just ignore any planet that is armed with surface-to-orbit weapons and take control of nearby planets like some form of "island hopping", but in space. If your list of "important planets" that might warrant arming with Naval Lasers grows to be more than a couple planets, it might just be a better idea to build another ship instead.
There's few planets that are actually valuable enough to be worth arming with these weapons. Terra is one of them, as far as I know, since it's an economic and industrial powerhouse and basically a symbol itself.
(It's kind of funny how cheap Naval Lasers actually are though: a NL-35 at 500,000 C-Bills is less than a light 'Mech despite being at least a magnitude heavier. You could replace a Scorpion tank lance with a NL-35 and have spare change. Ahh, Fasanomics...)
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Requiem
07/06/19 04:04 AM
1.158.130.13
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The Sarna Wiki has the NL-35 Cost marked at 500,000 and makes no mention at all of it being in the billions. If this is in error it will be needed to be rectified. However, if this is not an error the price makes it into an extremely cost effective artillery piece – However when you factor in the cost of a large reactor the price will increase extremely fast!
Can’t hit anything smaller than a dropship …. can I laugh now?
Put the NL artillery piece down to a zero elevation angle (created to fire say 1 meter above the ground) - rather than fire one mass shot – diffuse the energy through a pre-determined angle off the center (what you have is a like a hand fan through, for this example say a 30 degree wedge off the centre to each side) – then all you need is a base that can traverse the beam through an even greater arc – the weapon also needs to be kept operational for one entire traversing of the beam – every ‘Mech within a couple of kilo-meters will become a pool of metal.
Not every gun has to be a direct beam – with enough energy diffused through a pre-determined angle you can effectively have an anti-air gun or a gun that is used to restrict access to everything through a predetermined area on the ground.
Battletech Field Manual – Federated Suns Book No. 1719 – Front Cover – you can clearly see two Union Class Dropsips (Mass – 3,500 tons) being moved on the spaceport – sitting on top of a very large tracked vehicle – if you can move a Dropship you can move a Naval Laser.
Also the idea of putting a Naval Gun within a bunker is nothing new – D-Day WW2 – Pointe du Hoc – Captured by the Rangers was supposed to be equipped with Naval guns.
However having a “Big gun” will not protect you from the commando force armed with HE plastic – if you rely on technology too much you become susceptible to a low tech attack – something that was completely forgotten when dealing with the Clans.
When introducing Naval Guns as artillery you should also consider having large walls that cannot be transversed easily (even a light ‘Mech with Jump jets – Spider?) – medieval castle however make sure there are overlapping fields of fire and kill boxes by placing outward embankments from the main castle that will force the attacking unit into a three sided kill box if they get too close . Then encircle these with multiple LRM 20 / PPCs – and make sure the spaceport in the center of the base.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Frabby
07/06/19 06:25 AM
79.212.146.64
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You're applying game rules logic to the in-universe setting, but in-universe the game rules as such only apply to the extent the writers care.
There may be a myriad reasons for why BattleTech space defenses aren't perfect, and I don't even have to go to real world comparisons.
You're assuming that any number of naval lasers is available for sale in the setting and ready to be installed anywhere. That's a stretch.
Plus, the "price" tags are useless imho. They can only vaguely approximate actual prices for items, say nothing about installation, upkeep, maintenance or operation cost, and don't consider supply and demand mechanics at all.
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Requiem
07/06/19 07:00 AM
1.158.130.13
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There is nothing wrong with suggesting an “in-house” rule that some players, me included, may be needed to be considered due to its application within different settings.
Consider the German WW2 Flak 88 canon - originally intended as an antiaircraft use. However it soon became quite evident that it was equally applicable for antitank use.
So why not over the years consider refining a naval laser for land base defence.
Thus I believe if you do accept the concept of using Naval Lasers for Artillery you must also accept the possibility that one or more of the houses would have modified it for maximum defense (diffuse and prolong the beam etc.)
Production Numbers
DC – Battle Defense Stations – page 204 – Dropships, Jumpships, and Warships Technical Readout – Canon – “… but estimates suggest that another 20 could be assembled within three months”
Capitol Class includes a NL-35
BattleSat includes a NL-55
In you can create 20 in three months this means you can also create 20 NLs in three months just in the DC alone. QED.
Cost
Initially I would agree costs are very high – however over time with mass production / training / availability of space parts etc. costs will decrease
However, when you are considering the most important of worlds and facilities – for example Defiance Industries of Hesperus II – and what of Capitol Wolds / Regional Capitol Worlds – as well as those worlds that have key Logistics center for entire regions etc.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/06/19 05:58 PM
66.74.60.165
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The first sentence of the first post is where the price issue was at. You know this one?
NL-35 With a cost of only 500,000 Million
It wasn't the wiki that added the million behind it.
Now. The tech for moving and aiming large items, ie the microwave dishes used on Kathil as an example, the idea of ground based batteries, as well as using the naval weapons for taking out any ship within range was not taken well a while back. It is part of what lead to the whole 'the game is about ground combat, with mechs being the main focus' was brought up. With space defenses the way they should be, there would be no real ground battles unless you sabotague or find some other way to wipe out the ground and possible orbital defenses.
One problem with making a warship if you need to cover more ground. Some moron will take said ship, and try to attack, or move it away from what it is supposed to be protecting. As this is about the ground use of NL's, the bs of not having the parts for the ships doesn't apply. I can see if they didn't have a way to make the weapons, but even that gets unlikely with a little time.
How many SL bases that were found were factories, that lay forgotten in time, not destroyed by the enemy? The mechs seem to be usable as soon as you find them, yet the equipment to make them was rusting out?
Initially I would agree costs are very high – however over time with mass production / training / availability of space parts etc. costs will decrease
This was used to shoot down the clan tech being so expensive.
Though Frabby is right on the price thing. If none are available then 500,000 is completely wrong. I want to say that would be making from raw materials to final product. A guesstimate sort of thing.
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ghostrider
07/06/19 06:05 PM
66.74.60.165
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The idea of the 'great castle defense' has a major hole in it. Without protecting the skies above, simple hot dropping into it defeats the defense walls. Funny thing with this is, D&D taught me that.
A major effort for the ultimate fortress by someone bragging about his fort was impregnable. A set of Pegasus Riders destroyed hit command personell, and put the whole thing in chaos.
Even a large shuttle fleet could do the same. Yes, some defenses would be available to defend inside, but most think wall weapons need to only point out. So make sure they can't be used by single infiltrators to hit the city.
So why not over the years consider refining a naval laser for land base defence.
Why not refine the targeting systems of all weapons, so they can hit some 12-18 meter tall, maybe 10 meter wide thing standing in front of you with neither moving reliably. Gunnery skill? The damned computers should take care of that, like video games. The little dot or circle is where you shoot at to hit this target. Oh wait. They had that back in the 80's and 90's. So the excuse the mechs can't do so isn't really there.
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Retry
07/06/19 06:43 PM
174.70.184.145
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Quote:
Can’t hit anything smaller than a dropship …. can I laugh now?
Capital-scale weapons have a +5 to-hit modifier against anything under 500 tons.
Quote:
Put the NL artillery piece down to a zero elevation angle (created to fire say 1 meter above the ground) - rather than fire one mass shot – diffuse the energy through a pre-determined angle off the center (what you have is a like a hand fan through, for this example say a 30 degree wedge off the centre to each side) – then all you need is a base that can traverse the beam through an even greater arc – the weapon also needs to be kept operational for one entire traversing of the beam – every ‘Mech within a couple of kilo-meters will become a pool of metal.
Won't work.
A big reason why lasers are as destructive as they are is because they concentrate their energy in a very small focal point. If you have the beam diffusing as a "wedge" its heat flux reduces rapidly and you won't have nearly the amount of destructive power, and this heat flux will increase with distances instead of being (roughly) constant like a laser would. And without extremely high heat fluxes, your half-million dollar weapon is no longer an energy weapon but an extremely expensive flashlight. Rather than leaving huge metal pools, you'll be lucky to increase their heat scale by 1 point.
Not that even a concentrated NL-35 blast would necessarily melt a 'Mech. That's only 35 points of damage. Nothing to scoff at, but less than what a good HAG/40 or UAC/20 hit can deliver. An Atlas can take that hit to any location without immediately losing the joint melting except the head. An Atlas's legs and CT won't even go internal.
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ghostrider
07/06/19 08:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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Retry.
35 points of battlespace damage. Which is 10 times normal ground based damage. So even if defused by 50 percent, it would still be enough to wipe out almost any ground based unit.
Just like causing the streets to flow in Turtle Bay.
This is why Orbital bombardment is so dangerous.
Nothing in normal ground based weapons can touch naval weapons for the most part. Point blank weapons in battlespace, tend to be the ground based ones being used.
Now the fact the naval weapons can hit something under 500 tons is part of the 'newer' books.
Though it does make some sense to be able to do so. A small slash with the naval lasers should take out fighters and even missile groups. Not sure about capital missiles, as they probably don't want that being used against the larger(aerofighters) called missiles.
An odd thought. Do they have a series of prototypes or even made weapon sets that are in between naval and ground weapons? Much like the sub capital by not as large.
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Cray
07/06/19 08:35 PM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
Retry.
35 points of battlespace damage.
No, 35 points of standard damage or 3.5 points of capital damage. The only weapon that does 35 points of capital damage (350pts standard) is the NAC/35.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
07/07/19 05:58 AM
1.158.130.13
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Please note that even with with a NL that has a house rule so that it can be used against even BattleMechs you can have it emplaced on a rotating bracket that can also be utilized for anti-aircraft purposes.
The NL-55 has an extreme range within space of 54 x 18km = 972 KM
Within atmosphere using a diffuser with range of even 100Km is only 10.3% of this distance and if you decrease it again to 10Km is only 1.3% of the distance. Thus even though the distance have been dramatically reduced has been reduced to either 10% or even 1% of normal to allow for the diffusion beam effect whist at the same time retaining a potent damage effect say down to approx.. 25% of normal – 90 points. (House Rules).
Thus I cannot see why this is still not a viable proposition whist at the same time retaining a considerable amount of damage
This is where I would have a multi tool on the front for either a diffusing beam for a wide beam (for BattleMechs and Aerospace Fighters) and secondly as its normal beam to engage Warships in low orbit or dropships.
Canon – suggests a +5 to-hit modifier against anything under 500 tons.
Alt. Universe – suggests a -5 piloting roll to either jump out of the beams approach / lay the ‘Mech down very quickly on it front (same as for a Nuclear weapon) or to jink the fighter out of the beams path otherwise full damage will be received.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/07/19 12:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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So they changed naval weapons so that energy isn't the go to weapon. Or at least the lasers. The NAC is the thing.
Thus I cannot see why this is still not a viable proposition whist at the same time retaining a considerable amount of damage
As with most things, this removes the stompy mechs from being the focus of battles, as fortresses and normal buildings would no longer need inaccurate artillery and even alot of towers or ground forces. That is why canon will not make it viable. Yet they did use the SDS to stop WOB from dieing quickly. Imagine that.
And the SDS should be the next system defense platform all go to, but that won't happen, if the past continues along standard lines.
Now a technical question of the Naval Lasers.
Do they use mirrors or other reflective surfaces to aim the beam?
Or is that just for targeting/FLIR style lasers?
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Requiem
07/07/19 05:49 PM
1.158.130.13
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Having a beam weapon, on planet, than can kill anything it hits out to nearly 1,000Km is a little reckless! Think of the damage it could cause.
I am just considering a beam weapon with a slightly more ‘tactical range’.
I would assume the same for the NAC if a ground artillery unit was considered.
As we are discussing House Rules – I suggest leaving the particulars to each gaming group to decide on their range / damage characteristics.
I disagree, that the big ‘stompy’ ‘Mechs will no longer be the focus of the battle – the gamer now has to think very carefully as to her / his next move …. how they will penetrate the enemy fortification ….
1. Commando unit- penetrate from the outside;
2. Trojan Horse – or should I say Trojan re-supply Drop-ship;
3. Could the enemy have their own tracked Naval weapon (an SDS?) that has been brought up to destroy the Fortresses’ Naval weapon?;
4. Other?
Then when the enemy fortresses Naval weapon is down it is time to invade the fortress with ‘Mechs backed up with Infantry (Power Armour) – via. VTOLS / APCs - a very fast assault to breach the walls.
If the fortress does not have an adequate secondary line of defence – emplacement bunkers with LRM 20 / PPC – then a third line of defence ‘Mech, VTOL and Aerospace fighters – then a fourth line infantry (power armour) and regular artillery pieces – then I would consider that fortress to be ill conceived and manned - This now creates a vast “City” scape that needs to be penetrated / defended.
If given a little thought the game developers could have quite easily established an entirely new area to battle in – the fortress – a multiple level game – multiple traps /corridors (some ‘Mech sized and some infantry sized / some vehicle sized – teams could be given objectives 1. Command 2. Reactor Control 3. Intelligence / communication rooms 4. Hospital 5. Magazines 6. Internal Warehouses etc. – blast walls that could pop up and block your way if you are inside the fortress and if you are on top of it mass gun emplacements to deal with etc.
Just consider it as an entirely new battlefield that was never considered and in all probability should have been considered. I.e. for those 40K enthusiasts – consider it something akin to Space Hulk for Battletech or if you are into D&D a dungeon crawl.
Technical Questions
Unknown – either, both, something quite different – each House could have their own method for achieving the same end to aim the beam(s).
Targeting etc. can I say again that each house should have their own method of achieving this – there shouldn’t be one method over time each House developed their own engineering.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/07/19 05:51 PM)
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Cray
07/07/19 07:07 PM
97.101.136.19
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Side comment: don't the rules for Castles Brian include ground-based naval weapons?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
07/07/19 07:33 PM
66.74.60.165
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The curvature of a world would start showing with extremely long ranged weapons. And as pointed out, 35 points isn't the end all, like the NAC would be.
The issue with Trojan horses comes down to a simple thing. NO dropship can penetrate the airspace. Shipping by land with several checkpoints would become the necessary standards for this. So only a spy recruited into the military stationed there, would be the main way to do anything that way.
And deciding to hold back the mechs should ALWAYS be something a commander should do. But that isn't what gets players doing their thing. It is the chance to send in the mechs, where they come in. Just like the BS of the death matches that are 'scouting' missions and such.
But then if you are playing the owner of the mechs that need to attack, then it becomes more of an issue.
There is an issue with the timing of when the NL fires. 10 second rounds, unless they changed this, for ground combat and minute rounds for space. So 50 seconds the laser is recharging or something like that. Any terrain will allow units to get close, and frankly, cruise missiles and such would be used, if they were part of the game. Even drones with bombs. Anti air would take out some, maybe even all depending on numbers.
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Requiem
07/07/19 09:33 PM
1.158.130.13
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Cray,
Jihad Hot Spots: Terra Pages 200 onwards for a Castle Brian did not make any mention of a ground based naval weapon. Is it noted in another Book?
Ghostrider,
Yes the curvature of the world would pose a problem if the beam was sent to its extreme of over 950Km.
As stated previously House rules can vary if someone wants to limit it to just 35 points OK for them – as for my alt 10Km max range and at 90 each section above the beam – 90 Right Leg, 90 Right Arm, 90 CT, 90 Head, 90 Left Arm, 90 Left Leg etc ……
May I suggest you bring along a very big shield that can take this kind of damage and hide behind it when the Naval Laser is used.
Yes using a Trojan horse is not that simple but if you can pull it off who knows what damage could be done. If you are using Death Commandoes they don’t even care that they are all going to die.
I also agree there should be a charge time to the Naval Laser – and yes during this time the enemy could get close – however is this not the reason you have a secondary defence line LRM 20 / PPC ? ERPPC / Gause etc?
As for terrain – when you establish a fortress do you allow the terrain to go un-manicured? Doubtful, I would establish some very nasty surprises when it comes to the terrain – Just remember when building a Castle, even in the 1st Cent, Location Location Location – Height, Good Visibility of the surrounding area, Manicured external garden with many death traps and kill boxes included – water hazards and mine fields should be considered standard - buried 20 ton explosive mines are also a must – ensure you have good overlapping field of fire and make it difficult for any Jump Mech to move around with impunity and make sure you have adequate anti infantry traps and detection systems – being infected with commandoes can be a pain and calling in the pest exterminator can cause a problem with booking times – Also remember to check the foundations especially if has only just been newly acquired – as you don’t want any hidden sapper tunnels popping up during an invasion.
And remember Pastel colour none of those garish colour schemes …..
Am I right?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/08/19 03:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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I was thinking more along the lines of small hills and such for terrain. But forests and such can be used.
The thing I was thinking of pointing this out is that a small ditch could very well hide a unit from a firing laser, if it can only go level with the ground. The fort being higher up would take care of such issues, though other things could work as well. Tube Artillery sighted for that spot comes to mind. Mines are the first thing, but having to replace them gets old. Artillery can be used again and again, as long as you have ammo.
The other issue with the naval laser is targeting units. Spider mechs as well as some hover craft would do nicely to avoid the targeting, but yes. The secondary lines should be able to deal with them. Should is the key word. Moving all out, or jumping constantly, a spider is a real pain to hit. Load it with explosives or an EMP, and it can do some damage.
Finding a sucker....er.. pilot to do so is a problem. Then again small aircraft can do the carpet bombing as well.
But then nothing on the ground is invulnerable. Making it as close as possible is the key.
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Requiem
07/08/19 05:00 AM
1.158.130.13
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Errrr …. If I was looking at a new caste for myself I would order my Sea Bees to remove anything that could provide support to an attacking force flatten it out, put in many wide aqueducts to restrict the movement of any non-jump capable ‘Mechs (wide enough so they can’t walk across but not wide enough they can traverse their ‘Mechs through the aqueduct) and turn all the fields into grasslands for the surrounding 10 Km (and ensure most of the grass fields are also mine fields or remote controlled explosive field).
Plus a couple of ornamental fountains, statues, football pitch, flower beds and shrubberies to improve the aesthetics – the front drive way entry should also be in a zig zag pattern and the small bridges over the aqueducts should all be mined – ready of detonation at a moment’s notice.
When engaging this Castle there are only a couple of methods available ….
1. A second Naval Weapon emplaced upon a tracked vehicle;
2. A Warship or Jolly Rodger Jumpship armed with a Naval Laser;
3. Trojan Drop-ship / Kamikaze strike;
4. Commando raid armed with high explosives – two targets first the Naval Weapon itself and second the energy source for the weapon;
5. A very large rock made out a very dense material that can be dropped from orbit upon the castle;
6. The spy;
7. A successful Nuclear Strike(s);
8. The Roman turtle formation – ‘Mechs armed with very large shields that are designed to survive multiple large energy attacks that they can carry into battle – form the turtle / absorb the hit – and move on – they must also be very fast and jump capable – in addition they must have the firepower to breach the Castle as soon as they arrive .….. can’t see a problem with this attack method … now were ae those convict pilots ….. ?; and
9. Go back to Medieval and WW1 tactic – the tunnel – dig a tunnel into the fortification or just beneath the fortification, then pack it with about 100 tons of high explosive that will, when detonated, undermine the foundation causing the wall and the Naval weapon to collapse into the hole produced by the explosion.
As you can see the attacker has many ways that could be considered a successful strategy method to breach the Castle ….
I would however assume the castle has been built so that an EMP / Chemical / Biological strike wouldn’t pose a threat.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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