Re Thinking Jump ships and Drop ships

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Requiem
08/01/19 02:39 AM
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QUOTE: Again. You want a large ship, that's fine. Don't come in saying the rules have to be changed to fit your vision.

When re-reading the first sentence in this post you have, “Should the rules need changing in the following areas …”

Mass to energy to distance ratio –
My changing rule postulation - Opening, maintaining and closing jump corridor does not require an extreme amount of energy – the majority of the energy is lost due relationship between the weight of object jumping and the distance it can travel.
Low weight craft require smaller drives however this can propel the ship to greater ranges.
Large weight craft requires larger drives however due to the weight restriction the ship can only be propelled a short distance.
However, if a ship has multiple drives this can act as a boost to extend the overall range of the object. Thus if a jump ship were to more than one engine it could theoretically extend its jump range.

So, keeping an open mind, should it be changed to the above postulation?

QUOTE: Establishing a General of the Army as the next Archon of the Steiner State. Victor should have regained the title.

Sorry no, Victor could not legally regain the title without submitting a request to have his abdication annulled by the Estates General. Politically, he has too many dissenters within the Estates General due to his ‘handing’ of the Civil War and that of giving his sister to the Wolves, so good luck in getting the Estates General ratifying this.

As for Katherine, sorry no I disagree she is not incarcerated with Wolves she is in exile with the Wolves – this is a massive historical and political distinction. If she was incarcerated she would still be under Victor’s care and would not have been given to the Wolves. Once with the wolves she is defined as being in exile.

Suggest looking at the dark ages as to rulers who are sent into exile, at what usually happens next.

However, are you not forgetting Archon Peter Steiner-Davion’s son – Hanse Steiner-Davion-Hussfiel - who was bypassed within the canon to give the title to Adam. At this time he could have been no more than 5 years old which should have necessitated a triumvirate to rule until his majority and not a full transfer to Adam – this is where the game developers erred completely as to the law of succession – Adam should have been made Lord Protector of the Realm until Hanse came of age.

QUOTE: Players are NOT supposed to change the course of canon. They are merely the sideshow.

And yet how many pebbles in history have created an avalanche!

Sorry but I do not understand how you can make a comparison between a technology used for a Colonization vessel and that of a defunct dungeons and dragons supplement - the magic based spelljammer vessel. Am I to assume that an LRM launcher is to be converted to a Magic Missile Launcher in the future?

QUOTE: And the fact that they can stop at worlds and let the people stretch their legs hasn't come to mind?

Does this mean you will also let the animals “stretch their legs as well”?
Time to reaching their destination has now been increased by a factor to two or three if you adopt this policy?
Plus the costs have also been increased due to the increased fuel / food / time requirements (and every other cost)?
Question, what if you were the first colony ship, would you stop off at every unknown system to investigate every world therein or would you continue to your destination with all due alacrity?

When you compare a drop ship’s available space to that of what I am proposing a dedicated colony ship – even the bare necessities of an initial colony the requirements would be extensive.

How many years will it take for the next ship to arrive – a decade at minimum would not be unheard of? Thus getting as much “garbage” (essential technology) there as possible to ensure a viable colony is a must.

The chance of needing a rescue mission when a single or multiple colony ships are dispatched is reduced when you compare it to a single / multiple jump ship(s) with multiple drop ships that are dispatched for 1 gravity burns every time the jump ship’s battery requires recharging.
The chance of a mishap occurring to these multiple drop ships conducting multiple one-gravity burns should be considered to be greater than than of the normal mission of a colony ship(s).

A vegan space colony? This is a possibility – however, can you say everyone would be vegan in the future? Even if it is just one colony that has requested to transport animals can you say transporting them within a drop ship is not only safer (medically - to both the animals and their keepers) but is also more humane than that of a colony ship? I doubt an argument can be made that keeping an animal locked in a pen for multiple years within a drop ship (and only occasionally being let out at pit stop worlds) is more humane than that of a permanent free range paddock within the colony ship.

QUOTE: Maybe even having a few ships take the supplies there before loading up the main colonists.

Can you say these supplies will be there for the colonists when they get there?
What will the colonists do if they get there and they find the supplies are not available?


Question: What about the psychology and the muscle atrophy of the colonists and their animals?

It can be stated with an absolute certainty that a colony ship will produce a more positive environment for the colonists and their animals than that of the drop ship transport over an extended period of time.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem
08/01/19 08:47 AM
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Note: there are no rules for the construction of such a vessel – I just cobbled together something that looks appropriate to the needs of the colony. An approximation of what I would consider to be a Colony vessel as it were.

NON-CANON VESSEL

Dawn (Colony Class)

Production information
Manufacturer ……………………………… Terran Colonization Inc.
Introduced ……………………………………
Production Year ……………………………
Use………………………………………………. Colony
Tech Base .…………………………………… Inner Sphere
Cost……………………………………………..
Technical Specifications
Mass…………………………………………… 2,000,000 tons (approximately?)
Length ……………………………………….. 8,500m
Cylindrical Colony diameter ………........... 2,000m
Internal Land…………………………..…… 100 km square
Sail Diameter……………………………...... 2,000m
Fuel ………………………………………….. 40,000 tons
Burn Rate ………………………………….. 44
Safe Thrust ……………………………….. 1 g
Top Thrust ………………………………… 1.5 g
Sail Integrity …………………………….… 5
KF Drive Integrity ………………………... 19
LF Battery …………………………………. No
Armament
………………………………………………….. 16 LRM 20
………………………………………………….. 32 Large Lasers
………………………………………………….. 16 PPC
Armor ………………………………………… 150 tons standard
Dropship Capacity ……………….......…….. 12
Cargo
………………………………………………….. 6 Fighters
………………………………………………….. 12 Small Craft
………………………………………………….. 250,000 tons of Cargo
Personnel - Crew
………………………………………………….. 51 Officers
………………………………………………….. 312 Enlisted / non rated
………………………………………………….. 68 Gunners
………………………………………………….. 120 Marines
………………………………………………….. 160 Bay Personnel
Personnel – Passengers
………………………………………………….. 5,000 Colonists
………………………………………………….. 1,000 Large Animals
………………………………………………….. 2,000 Medium Animals
………………………………………………….. 2,000 Small Animals
Escape Pods / Life Boats ……….............….. 270 / 600
Heat sinks …………………………………..... 1,000
Structural Integrity …………………............. 60


Description
At the dawn of the First Terran Exodus a competition was held to design a Colony Ship in which the internal colony would have a surface area of approximately 100 square kilometres and a maximum gravity or 1.5 times standard. This resulted in the development of the Dawn-class Transport and Colony-class Carrier.
The Dawn-class vessel was the first true vessel dedicated to transporting a large scale number of colonists to their new home worlds together with all the necessary equipment to produce a viable colony.
The internal 100 Km square land simulates a green agricultural landscape comprising a small city of luxury apartments and other businesses, schools, hospital etc., similar to those that will be built for the colonists upon their new home world, multiple rivers, a lake (for swimming and aquaculture), a small forest as well as an agricultural area for their future animal and agrarian needs. The land area also contains a colonist training area to educate colonists during their cruse duration to reach their new home world. The environment can also simulate any season and can also simulate rain and a normal stellar day / night rotation – light and dark period. The entire environment is designed to keep the psychological stress of the colonists and their animals to a minimum.

Ship History
During the First Exodus these transports served as a means to transport large number of populations to their designated colony worlds and have over the centuries served a variety of roles for both military and civilian operations.

Armament
The Dawn-Class Colony Transport mounts only conventional weapons and aerospace fighters, allowing the vessel to defend itself from only lighter Aerospace fighters and Drop ships.

Note: when you look at both a small and a large habitat (Canon) you will quickly realise the number of people assigned to both of these two stations have been thoroughly exaggerated – example -there is no way a large station of 1,100m long and a diameter of only 750m can house 28,600 people.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/01/19 12:29 PM
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Opening, maintaining and closing jump corridor does not require an extreme amount of energy
Then it should be possible for multiple ships to use that 'portal/gateway'. It is set from point A to point B.
If it requires a ship to move into it, in the absolute right direction, then I don't see why you couldn't line up ships and have one portal open for them all.

Thus if a jump ship were to more than one engine it could theoretically extend its jump range. The Ion-Lithium drive does this. It repowers the core. Which is far smaller then a second jump drive. Now oddly, it does not damage the drive like a fast charge supposedly does. Hmmm.

Sorry no, Victor could not legally regain the title without submitting a request to have his abdication annulled by the Estates General. So they approved Adam. Considering what finally came out with Katherine's downfall, this is more likely then Katherine being able to come back. Victor was not accused of the horrible things Katherine ordered.

Hanse Steiner-Davion-Hussfiel - who was bypassed within the canon to give the title to Adam. Yeah. Let's put the fate of the FC in the hands of a 5 year old. Didn't they learn from the original SL? And any reagent would more then likely move to steal and keep the power of the rulership. If nothing else, put Yvonne on the throne and the general estates would run it. Until someone moved to take over completely.

Sorry but I do not understand how you can make a comparison between a technology used for a Colonization vessel and that of a defunct dungeons and dragons supplement
You are trying to change the rules to move a chunk of land, instead of using the normal dropships. I just figured instead of demanding a rule change, you just deal with a game that already has that in it.
ghostrider
08/01/19 12:43 PM
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Does this mean you will also let the animals “stretch their legs as well”?
Time to reaching their destination has now been increased by a factor to two or three if you adopt this policy?
How many colony expeditions would have the resources to use a command circuit or even keep the same jumpship to travel the entire distance? This is much a commercial venture, meaning they would probably have to book multiple ships for all the jumps they have going. So the time to stretch for a few days is probably not long enough to wait until the next jumpships is supposed to arrive, then recharge.
Even the houses aren't going to have a command circuit for colonizing things. Make a military base is different, so that line doesn't work.
Plus the costs have also been increased due to the increased fuel / food / time requirements (and every other cost)?
It is far less then paying for this huge, one time ship. Also, the only time you have an issue with getting fuel is once you leave the civilized areas. Which may well be the biggest part of the long journey.

Question, what if you were the first colony ship, would you stop off at every unknown system to investigate every world therein or would you continue to your destination with all due alacrity?
First ship going to a known destination? Or exploring to find a place to settle down? Large difference in the two.

What will the colonists do if they get there and they find the supplies are not available? The same thing the military does when their supplies are plundered. They have to find food sooner then expected. Go hunting. Find edible plants. It really depends on the world you found.

-there is no way a large station of 1,100m long and a diameter of only 750m can house 28,600 people. Housing is very possible. Growing food to feed them isn't. But then this is not a farming habitat. I have no illusions that this is just a huge apartment block set up. You are not going to have parks, roadways and such. Airlocked docks, with transport tubes, and hallways to move people around. Other then that, would be a follow to even attempt to think of.

The example ship is decent, but I would suggest looking at the McKenna warship for some pointers.
And do realize, that spinning the whole ship would have to stop before a jump. Otherwise, the ship will misjump. Gravdecks need to be shut down for jumps, the entire ship moving messes up the computer calculations.
Requiem
08/01/19 08:16 PM
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Multiple ships using the same portal –
Consider – if multiple ships can use the same portal then is it either a Star-gate or a portal from the 80’s show Buck Rodgers or is it the web way from Warhammer 40K?;
Consider – the ship requires an energy field enveloping it prior to opening the portal and then jumping.

Semantics - Repowering a core or extended range of a single jump – what I would like to considered is for something as small as a bug-eye it has an initial range double the normal jump as per canon and if a new second engine is attached and it still comes in within the small weight category this will give it a range of four times the range of a normal canon jump.
It makes for an interesting idea for idea when you consider utilizing multiple first / deep strike raiding units as well as when your house has a decent naval fleet.

Archon Adam -
Question – Lyran Culture – Money and Rank/Title are the cornerstone of their culture.
The Game Developers approved Adam.
However, if you ask yourself doesn’t this proposed election of Adam go against the Lyran culture?
I can only say it does – it not only goes against their culture it also goes against the entire canon legal framework.
So, would the Estates General – a small number of elite people who have the rank/title above the rank of Count – approve someone eight generations or more away from the the main family? Remember there is an Heir and he if no more than 5 years old, this would necessitate the need of a triumvirate – this would also mean the head of the Estates General would be one of the three protectors of the realm – Self-interest Vs. the interest of the State -how much could the current Estate General members get away with (become wealthier) with a triumvirate at the helm in comparison with an individual Archon. My bet – with a 5 year old – they believe they could become richer and obtain more power.
Also remember many of the Estates General members are within the line of succession ahead of Adam – why would they go against their self-interests and vote someone else into the Archonship when with a little political manoeuvring they themselves could be considered a candidate?
Sorry but the game developers totally gaffed here!
Also ask yourself when many of the current Estates General members when ruled by Katherine - how many back room deals allowed them to have the good life – and with Victor imposing his brother what happed to that good life – evaporated ? – then ask yourself if people thought the good life could return with Katherine once more would they accept her return? Politically, Legally and Culturally I can only say yes. Not only would many of the Estate General nobles desire her return but many of the Lyran people would also desire her return. Remember her political image is as white as it can get – how many would believe Victor’s story as to what Katherine did – they would believe Victor is just attempting to justify his actions in selling his sister to the Clans – at this stage Victor’s public persona within Lyran Space would, in all probability, be one step above Amaris.
It then just comes down to numbers and back room deals being made – Triumvirate Vs. Katherine – on the balance of probability I believe that Katherine would be asked to take the throne once more at this stage.

Note if Hanse Steiner-Davion-Hussfiel is elected as Archon designate he would receive a Triumvirate. This includes ….
His mother – to represent his interests;
Adam Steiner – As the head of the Army – becomes Lord Protector of the Realm – and represents the security of the realm; and
The Head of the Estates General – he/she represents the states bureaucracy.
This would be the second time in Lyran history this has been formed so why all the fuss?
QUOTE: You are trying to change the rules to move a chunk of land, instead of using the normal dropships. I just figured instead of demanding a rule change, you just deal with a game that already has that in it.

And when that “chunk of land” is within a ship – a very large greenhouse – what’s the problem?

Command Circuit for a colony – Timing issue.
Initially there would only be a small number of ships so the idea of of a command circuit is not available to them – hence the necessity of using a colony ship
As time progresses and the number of ships manufactured increases, and you have the wealth to create a circuit, yes you could do this. However, by now all the planets would have an active colony on them and you are only coming into an established world not as a colonist but as a migrant.

Note – Colony ships would not be a one-time use vessel – with owning such a vessel you would want it to travel back and forth as many times as possible to get your people to the promised land – and with the size of its holds it could transfer even prefabricated industries to the new world to enable the development of the colony, technologically, at a very rapid rate. And as a Colonist isn’t this what you want?

Fuel –
Mars expedition – what NASA is suggesting is that the expedition to Mars will make their own fuel for the return journey. So why can’t the colony ship make its own fuel?
Or why not take fuel tankers with them to increase their range?

Risk assessment
Leaving supplies on the planet in advance of the colony Vs. bring it with them – conduct a Human Resources Risk Assessment – each colony will have their own idea about this.
They could even have planted forests of fruit trees – so when the colonists arrive they could have orchards ready to go.

Large Habitat – Oxymoron of a description?
Considering its volume per person it would be very cramped (what you are saying is that you can put 28,600 people into a volume of half a Km cube - and this is not even considering the superstructure / engines air / water reclamation etc.) – and self-sufficiency is non-existent – thus if the regular food drop does not arrive you are always one step away from riots and starvation – psychologically, not a very good place to live. That is unless you do totally modify the internal structure to include food production – aquaculture / hydroponics etc and you reduce the population number considerably to an amount you can feed.

Colony Ship Jumping
What would happen if there are two hulls – an outer hull that does not move and an inner hull that does – creating a uniform 1 gravity constant? – would it still cause a problem for the computer calculations?
As this is my House Rule – I am going to say no it won’t cause a problem.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (08/01/19 08:27 PM)
Requiem
08/02/19 03:03 AM
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I believe I erred on the first attempt – consider this an update ……

Note: there are no rules for the construction of such a vessel – I just cobbled together something that looks appropriate to the needs of the colony. An approximation of what I would consider to be a Colony vessel as it were.

NON Canon – In House Creation

……………………………………………………..Dawn (Colony Class)……………………..Sky Dancer (Colony Class)
Production information
Manufacturer ……………………………………………………. Terran Colonization Inc.
Introduced ………………………………………………………….
Production Year …………………………………………………
Use……………………………………………………………………. Colony
Tech Base .………………………………………………………… Inner Sphere
Cost……………………………………………..
Technical Specifications
Mass…………………………………………… 1,000,000 tons………………………… 2,000,000 tons(approximately)
Length ……………………………………….... 5,500m ………………………………… 8,500m
Cylindrical Colony diameter ………..........…2,000m ……………………………….... 4,000m
Internal Land…………………………....…… 25 km square …………………………. 50 Km square
Sail Diameter………………………….....…... 2,000m …………………………………. 3,000m
Fuel ………………………………………...…. 40,000 tons ……………………………. 80,000 tons
Burn Rate ………………………..………….. 44 ………………………………………… 64
Safe Thrust ………………………...………... 1 g ………………………………………… 2 g
Top Thrust ………………………..…………. 1.5 g……………………………………….. 3 g
Sail Integrity ………………………....………. 5 …………………………………………... 5
KF Drive Integrity …………………….......…. 19 …………………………………………. 19
LF Battery …………………………………..... No …………………………………………. No
Armament
………………………………………………….. 16 LRM 20 …………………..……………… 24 LRM20
………………………………………………….. 32 Large Lasers …………………....……… 40 Large Lasers
………………………………………………….. 16 PPC ……………………………………… 24 PPC
Armor ………………………………………… 150 tons standard ……………….......…… 300 tons standard
Dropship Capacity …………………….. 9 ………………………………………………....... 12
Cargo
………………………………………………….. 6 Fighters …………………………….. 12 Fighters
………………………………………………….. 12 Small Craft ………………………… 24 Small Craft
………………………………………………….. 250,000 tons of Cargo………….....…. 400,000 tons Cargo
Personnel - Crew
………………………………………………….. 51 Officers……………………………. 71 Officers
………………………………………………….. 312 Enlisted / non rated ………....... 412 Enlisted / non rated
………………………………………………….. 68 Gunners ………………………..… 90 Gunners
………………………………………………….. 120 Marines …………………………. 200 Marines
………………………………………………….. 160 Bay Personnel ………...……….. 300 Bay Personel
Personnel – Passengers
………………………………………………….. 20,000 Colonists…………………………..… 40,000 Colonists
………………………………………………….. 2,000 Large Animals ……………………….. 4,000 Large Animals
………………………………………………….. 4,000 Medium Animals ………………...….. 6,000 Medium Animals
………………………………………………….. 4,000 Small Animals ………………………. 6,000 Small Animals
Escape Pods / Life Boats ………….......... .. 540 / 900 …………………………………… 810 / 1,200
Heat sinks ………………………………......… 1,000 ………………………………………… 1,200
Structural Integrity ………………......…........ 60 …………………………………………….. 80


Description
Take a McKenna Warship – slice it down through the hull behind the sale – put in between the two pieces a very large cylinder and re-join these three pieces together (Note however for Sky Dancer Class double the size of the front / engine compartment and fix on to the cylinder). This would be an approximation of how it would roughly look like.

The Cylinder is divided into three compartments
- The For – Predominately Colonist / Officers living compartment / offices / entertainment / shopping etc.
- The middle – the single gravity deck spinning to produce a 1 g gravity – as stated above this area simulates an agricultural landscape and is where all the animals are stored during their transport – This area also includes the children’s Schools (so that their growth will not be duly impeded as well as a couple of dwellings for parents with infants)
Crew and Colonists are expected to take the opportunity of utilising this deck for their recreation (schedule posted - to alleviate crowding at any one time) – bicycles, horses, walking / running tracks, canoes etc are supplied.
- The Aft - Predominately Colonist / Ratings / others living compartment etc.
Nt: Running through the middle of these three compartments is an electric train (like a subway)to transport people to work / school / entertainment facilities etc – when entering the middle compartment certain sections are open to view the landscape below.

At the dawn of the First Terran Exodus a competition was held to design a Colony Ship in which the internal colony would have a surface area of approximately 25 to 50 square kilometres and a maximum gravity or 1.5 times standard. This resulted in the development of both the Dawn and Sky Dancer Transport and Colony-class Carrier.

They were the first true vessels dedicated to transporting a large scale number of colonists to their new home worlds together with all the necessary equipment to produce a viable colony.

The internal agricultural land simulates a green agricultural landscape comprising schools / dwellings for families with infants, multiple rivers, a lake (for swimming and aquaculture), a small forest as well as an agricultural area for their future animal and agrarian needs. The land area also contains a colonist training area to educate colonists during their cruse duration to reach their new home world. The environment can also simulate any season and can also simulate rain and a normal stellar day / night rotation – light and dark period. The entire environment is designed to keep the psychological stress of the colonists and their animals to a minimum.

Ship History
During the First Exodus these transports served as a means to transport large number of populations to their designated colony worlds and have over the centuries served a variety of roles for both military and civilian operations.

Armament
The Colony Transports mounts only conventional weapons and aerospace fighters, allowing the vessel to defend itself from only lighter Aerospace fighters and Drop ships.

Engineering section
These ships would have a vast engineering section for the colonists to assist with the construction of the Colony.

Disembarking Procedure
The ship is to remain in orbit above the planet until all Colonists have disembarked and the colony has been built to ensure its viability – this could take anywhere up to two years.

Upon Arrival the Colonists disembark the construction team tasked with constructing the Colony
As as when Dwellings / infrastructure / support services have been created to adequately service a number of colonists they will slowly disembark the ship in waves for their new home until all infrastructure / dwellings for the colonists have been created and all waves have been transported to the surface.

Determining who is in which wave will be based upon your importance to the colony as the colony is slowly being established until its completion.

The same procedure is implemented for the herds of animals – creating safe paddocks – grass – support buildings etc. prior to their transport to the surface. Same procedure as well for all agricultural paddocks / Forestry / aquaculture / viticulture etc.


Note:
With the idea of one ship that can transport 20,000 to 40,000 Colonists this could very easily explain the rapid colonization of space by the human Race.

They will also explain Kerensky’s exodus – with only 100 plus of these vessels and the problem regarding the number of people that went with Kerensky to establish the Clans could be very easily explained.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/02/19 03:43 AM
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Colony ships would not be a one-time use vessel – with owning such a vessel you would want it to travel back and forth as many times as possible to get your people to the promised land
This is counter to the statement of having it in orbit around the colony.
So which is it?

However, by now all the planets would have an active colony on them and you are only coming into an established world not as a colonist but as a migrant.
So at what point does it change from a colony to a established world? And with this, are you suggesting there is no such thing as multiple colonies on a single world? What number of population or level of industry does it change?
The U.S. must not have been a colony of England, since the world was established before the americas were found.

There would not be a command circuit to form a colony. I don't know why one would think so. A military outpost, yes. Maybe the understanding of how colonies are created is missing here. You do not send the entire York County of England out to a new land at one time. But I guess history here is at fault, since it runs completely counter to what is suggested to form one on a new world.

Leaving supplies on the planet in advance of the colony Vs. bring it with them – conduct a Human Resources Risk Assessment – each colony will have their own idea about this. So you are going to start a colony on a world that already has people living on it? So pirates are found through their supplies sitting on world as they are out raiding others, at least according to this definition. And not all of them are large enough to leave a guard. Which according to a previous statement, the colonists would have such a guard.

You might want to look into the tube sleeping quarters that is currently in use in Japan. Basically, it is big enough to crawl into and sleep. Not much else. Much like bunking in a ship at sea. Shore leave is where you get to unwind.

I want to say grav decks have to be shut down before making a jump. Those are purely internal on warships. All jumpships stow their sails, which normally means rotating the ship some to assist. Then they start rotating again as they get done with the jump. All attached ships seem to have to be still, otherwise the jump is aborted. Might be the mass or calculations of the mass that prevents this.
ghostrider
08/02/19 03:51 AM
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The Potemkin Warships was suggested to have carried the majority of the soldiers families when on the exodus. The dropships helped keep communities together during the trip. So you might get some ideas by looking up that as well.

The McKenna was close to the 2 mil ton mark, so figured it would be a good start. The length seemed excessive on the colony ship.
Though why would you cut it in half, then add in a jump drive, when the McKenna has a jump drive?
Requiem
08/02/19 08:40 AM
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QUOTE: So which is it?

Colonists embarking – voyage - Colonists Disembarking – completed in waves as the colonies infrastructure slowly increased (in proportionality colonists to infrastructure ie. habitats etc.) over time until it is finally created (the overall viability of the colony), depending on the size and the complexity of the colony this could take considerable time – Ship returns to home port and collects an additional colony / re-stock etc

repeat ….. and then repeat again, until such a time as it is no longer commercially viable …..

QUOTE: So at what point does it change from a colony to a established world?

There is no one point when a colony changes into an independent nation …. However, good indicators would include the following ….

Population density;
World Industrialisation;
Government Oversight and Government Management– the complexity of regulations and laws – how the people are governed – how the laws are made;
Cartography of the world – Percentage surveyed and entered into the Lands Titles Office with Deeds – ie. what percentage of the world is recognized as being owned by an individual / corporation; and
Sociological factors – psychological perception of the world’s citizens as to their existing status colony / integrated community / independent world / part of a larger realm.

QUOTE: are you suggesting there is no such thing as multiple colonies on a single world?

First, This is dependent upon Terran Law – Large Multi-National Corporations form smaller corporations for a specific purpose –one such purpose could be the exploration of systems to determine the location of viable colony worlds – at this stage the wold is claimed for their Corporation (ie. as the discovered it they own the claim rights to the world).

(This would be something similar to claiming a section of a land during the Gold Rush era)

With the exploration ship returning to Terra – they would then lodge their findings with both a Government Oversight Department and with something similar to the stock exchange / auction house. Interested parties would then bid for the rights to colonize the world / mineral rights.

Price would be dependent upon Worlds Classification – how similar it is to earth it is – geology report – how far away from Terra it is etc. ( remember Caveat Emptor!)

The successful purchaser would then own the rights to the world (Certified by the Terran Government) – if more than one colony enterprise pooled their resources to purchase the world then yes you could have multiple colonies on one world. However if you had only one colony enterprise purchasing the world then only one colony should be on the world.

However, just as in the Gold Rush era, as is now, you could have claim jumpers or squatters – options are then limited – do nothing, you can ask them to leave, apply to the Terran Courts to force them to leave (High cost and time to get a ruling and then to get it enforced), or force them off with your military – though these actions would also be limited to the illegal colony having access to a way off the world (Jump / Drop Ship availability). (or if you are thoroughly evil - kill them all off)

QUOTE: You do not send the entire York County of England out to a new land at one time.

Social media / religion / common beliefs / common heritage – there just needs to be common element that brings people together to form a group with a similar aim – establishing a new life on a new world – then they need to find the means of financing such a venture.

QUOTE: Pirates

Yes, pirates could exist – however considering the limited number of ships I believe it would be a very unlucky colony that would have had to deal with them. However, this is why, as stated above, every colony would have their own security force and the armaments necessary to defend themselves.

QUOTE: Japanese capsule beds

On small warships – similar to a submarine that utilizes the principle of hot bunking – yes, I could see the merits – as long as they are not out to sea for a very long period of time.

However, on a colony ship that could be your home for many years – no, a capsule bed will cause psychological issues if used for a prolonged period of time – people need a reasonable amount of personal space. For a westerner, even for one night it is very difficult to get to sleep in one of these, as there is just no room to toss and turn, and the low ceiling is not very comforting.

QUOTE: grav decks have to be shut down before making a jump.

Please refer to my comment above on this topic.

QUOTE: Potemkin Warships

A division of infantry – usually consists of between 10,000 and 20,000 soldiers.
Five rings of five docking collars each – a total of twenty-five Drop Ships.
Single 95 meter gravity deck.

Interesting design but I believe it would become very cramped and having only one very small gravity deck for a massive population will pose a very large issue – especially for extended periods of time in space (eg. Kerensky’s exodus of over two years – did no one even consider muscle atrophy? Also what about growth retardation in children / infants due to a two year stint in almost constant zero g conditions?)

QUOTE: The length seemed excessive on the colony ship.

When considering personal space etc for 20,000 to 40,000 individuals and all the necessary equipment a colony may require initially to establish a viable colony – and then when you consider that you need a single gravity deck for twenty-five to fifty square kilometres to ensure a natural environment for the all the domesticated animals you will be taking with you – you will be quick to realise that yes to do this properly you would need a ship of this size.

I am under the opinion when the game developers considered the size of a ship and the number of individuals within it their mathematics is a long way off. I believe this is a more realistic size.

Also consider how you use barracks for soldiers and how you use apartments for families - big difference in size requirements.

If you believe I am wrong in my design calculations you could always correct the design for your home game if you wanted to include it. Maybe to something like four times the size of the Potemkin Warship with a very large cylinder built into the centre of the ship to accommodate / house all the domesticated animals / children / infants / recreational facilities for crew and colonists - promote natural muscle growth etc.

QUOTE: why would you cut it in half, then add in a jump drive, when the McKenna has a jump drive?

What I was attempting to create was a visual representation of what a possible colony ship would look like.

Take one very large ship cut it in half add a massive cylinder to the middle put it all back together – thus forming a visual representation of what a colony ship could possibly look like – and yes it would have a jump drive.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (08/02/19 09:03 AM)
ghostrider
08/02/19 11:16 AM
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With the exploration ship returning to Terra – they would then lodge their findings with both a Government Oversight Department
So the government DOES have a major influence on colonies and colonists.

Interested parties would then bid for the rights to colonize the world / mineral rights.
This sounds more like the government searching worlds, they putting up the colonization rights to those that have money. Not someone setting out to find a new home and starting a new world. So it sounds like over half of any colonization is missing from the equation. Like the land rush, the only thing most did with the government was to file the claim. And this makes it more difficult for normal businesses to have 'hidden' assets. If it was actually set up like suggested, then there could be NO border disputes, as they would be specifically laid out, and claim jumping would be rampant. Not full out attacks.

however considering the limited number of ships I believe it would be a very unlucky colony that would have had to deal with them. So supplies put on a world would more likely be safe, instead of worrying someone else picked them up. So that argument is taken care of.

The tube housing was to show the numbers could fit into the habitate, though it would not be an easy or pleasant experience. I will definitely agree, the initial numbers for the game was probably off by a bit. Once the game got bigger, then they started trying to get better numbers that fit.
But you could still do it, as most colonists were willing to suffer some discomfort, in order to start in a new land. This concept for the tube is more for holding everyone, with even a few dozen dropships being used to allow people some time away from the tubes, much like R&R. Rotation of families, just to make sure that is clear.
I want to say the SLDF exodus sent people down with the resource gathering units to worlds on their trips, to allow some relief from the cabin sickness concept.
Though I want to say the gravdecks negated a lot of the normal term issues from being in space. The gravity should counter the effects or slow it down dramatically.

The Potemkin suggestion wasn't to use it, but to possible get a few ideas on how to refine this idea, much like the McKenna seemed to have.
But with this, the armor might be an issue, as ships this large need far more armor to cover it and still at a reduced return per ton. Simple mishaps may well take out the ship if it only has 2 or 3 points in each section. Much like the issue with a coolant truck, or jumpships. This is very true if they have to defend themselves.
Requiem
08/02/19 07:26 PM
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QUOTE: So the government DOES have a major influence on colonies and colonists.

No the Government does not have a major influence upon a colony and its colonists as you are alluding to here. The Government Department is acting as an oversight position similar to the Lands Titles Office – they are recognising incoming Corporations Claims as to new worlds – Legislation would require a mountain of paperwork to be filed to verify the Claim so that it is all on the ‘up-and-up’ – and provides evidence if they lied so that they can be sued for damages.
The Government Department also recognises the legal purchases of the claim – thus providing for a legal deed to the planet – and who the colonists are so that there is no double claiming of worlds as it were.

QUOTE: Interested parties would then bid for the rights to colonize the world / mineral rights.

The Government have a duty of care to ensure the viability / survivability of any future colony. As such any potential future colonists must meet a threshold test before it can be allowed to bid for a world.

Threshold test – Money – Number of / Qualifications of people involved – access to future resources – Plans for the future.
i.e. the colonists must be able to prove they can create a viable colony.

Once the colony has been established – migration to the colony would be reduced to gaining legal access from the owners (Visa) and the money / ship availability to get you to this world.

This is done so that none of the projected colonies / colonists go missing – this is an attempt to be as professional as possible as to the future exploration of mankind. We are not in the 1800’s anymore technology and the rule of law must take precedence.

It is only in the future when with the idea of realms of worlds joining together to form an alliance does the real trouble start – when people put borders up and the idea of an us and them mentality originate.

QUOTE: Pirates / Claim Jumpers

Yes there is a possibility that people (pirates / claim jumpers) could attempt to invade a colony world with the aim of subjugating the population / taking their claim by force. The idea however that it is rampant if a little far-fetched – would be a very rare occurrence.

QUOTE: Steerage Compartment

If you have people coming together to form a colony consider the costs involved by each person – we have come a long way away from the idea of first, second and third class individuals as well as the idea of steerage class passengers. These ships can have different levels of accommodation but there needs to a minimum – look at the modern cruise liners as an example of what the internal layout would be similar to.

Yes, I agree there may be some discomfort – however going to the extent of having capsule beds within the ship itself is going a little far – within the Drop ships not a problem.

QUOTE: Kerensky’s SLDF exodus

Yes they did send people out to gather resources – water being a major one. However the concept that many people could get off and stretch their legs is taking it a bit too far. Remember as the exodus dragged on he ended up having multiple mutinies on his hand, so once the people got off – good luck in forcing them back on!

The idea that you could take millions of people out into deep space with no real destination in mind – leaving it to luck as it were – is very ill-conceived, especially from a military commander who must adhere to logic, planning and organisation requirements when it comes to war.

I believe Kerensky had a mental breakdown whilst on Terra with the House Lords and the people were following him due to his past charisma as a leader. If anyone had really thought the issue he was proposing through they would have quickly realised how stupid the idea really was – Legally his subordinates should have put him up on a charge of dereliction of duty / cowardice in the face of the enemy for proposing such an action, however they were blinded by the myth they had created around him – succumbed to their own propaganda as it were like so many doomed empires in the past.

Reality had no longer been seen from that day forward with the SLDF personnel - that is until they mutinied.

If he was no longer fit to command the SLDF he should have stepped down – retired or put a bullet in his head.

QUOTE: Armour

The concept of armour to normal hull plating

Armour is used on ships that will be in combat – heavier – take more punishment.

The idea that a colony ship will be going into combat is a little bit unrealistic – they are civilian not military – the armour is there to protect the more sensitive areas of the ship from the unknown – it is not there to stop a weapon strike.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (08/02/19 07:35 PM)
ghostrider
08/03/19 03:40 AM
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Still missing a major point. The government does have it's hands in colonizing. At the very least, they are trying to make sure criminals and antagonists don't get off their world. And with them 'selling' the rights to a world? A duck is a duck.

The Government have a duty of care to ensure the viability / survivability of any future colony. Since when? Only government sponsored colonies have anything like this. Most are just someone goes out and claims some land, and hopes when it is found, they have the claim locked up. Normally with weapons.

The rule of law? What law? The one that people have to ask who is the government to say they own the world someone is settling on? Except for might makes right, there is no reason why a government could say you can't settle here.
This would actually make the government a claim jumper, if they were not the ones to scout the world, then SEND the colonists in.

Not having armor on a ship that is going into the unknown, hell, even the known it foolish. A simple asteroid or comet hitting the ship is possible. And why bother with weapons, as you can not defend against a weak assault without the armor. All jumpships have armor on them. It isn't that much, but then the fluff itself says they do so just incase of an accident. A dropship hitting the ship harder then it should for instance.

As for the exodus, it was done to make the story move along. As the initial Hemegony had Dieron in it, that would have removed the District capital if they hadn't. That would have really screwed up the DC, and that isn't saying anything about the other houses. I really don't think Steiner would have gotten Defiance had they stayed.
Requiem
08/03/19 05:13 AM
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QUOTE: The government does have it's hands in colonizing.

Yes, though only within the role as a bureaucratic oversight organisation.

QUOTE: At the very least, they are trying to make sure criminals and antagonists don't get off their world.

True. However when it comes to smuggling people can be bribed or false identities can be established / databases can be manipulated.

Even in the far future I would make the assumption where there is a will (Money and lots of it!) there is a way.

QUOTE: And with them 'selling' the rights to a world?

The stock exchange / auction house as noted above refers to a third party clearing house – it does not have any links to the government other than to provide information as to whom claims have been processed for their records – ie. who currently holds the claim and who bought the claim so that their records can be updated.

QUOTE: A duck is a duck.

Sorry you have lost me with this – I do not understand how that type of government relates to this situation. Can you please elucidate?

QUOTE: The Government have a duty of care to ensure the viability / survivability of any future colony. Since when?

Look at current society – how many different kinds or licences are issued in todays society and how do you obtain these licences, better yet why must you have a license – not only is it a revenue raiser it is also there to ensure a level of professionalism / knowledge / safety for the community. I am just extrapolating today’s requirements in all fields of endeavours – Laws / Codes of Conduct / Professional Standards / Policies and Procedures and extrapolating it into the future where you could say there will an entry requirement / licence for nearly all fields of employment based upon knowledge and competence performing the job (obtained as a junior under a master).

In addition consider the political backlash if a government allowed a colony of 20,000 – 40,000 people be established to only find out a few years later they all died. And their deaths could have been prevented if the government had instituted mandatory oversight.

Such a situation could bring down the government – No, it would be better to have the laws in place first, ensure a level of due diligence and if they did all die at least the government could say they did all they could do to save them. No blame could be placed upon the current government administration.

In addition – How do you get out of the Terran System when the Government controls all of this space with their Navy and they would also have some control mechanism upon all space docs who construct colony vessels and supply them with all their supplies to construct the colony?

QUOTE: Most are just someone goes out and claims some land, and hopes when it is found, they have the claim locked up. Normally with weapons.

This is something from the 1800’s not the era of the First Great Exodus of mankind into the great unknown.

However, I will say this attitude could be applied to either …..
In the distant future post fall of the First Star League (maybe even earlier);

OR/- my Alt. Universe – when the belligerent Clans have been forcibly evicted from the IS, Katherine declares herself First Archon Princess of the FC and the dawn of the Victor / Omika Empire is beginning to be established. Such a manner of obtaining and holding claims upon these worlds within the Deep Periphery can be considered to be a viable historical situation by any individual / company / state with the weapons to take it and the ability to hold onto it.

QUOTE: there is no reason why a government could say you can't settle here.

At the dawn of the First Great Exodus – the Terran Government’s Navy and Army gave them the right to say who can settle where.

It is only in the far future when ships are more common can you say people not only have the ability they also have the weapons to hold onto their colony.

QUOTE: This would actually make the government a claim jumper.

In the subsequent years after the colony has become an established viable colony a far worse fate will befall all of the human colonies.

This will be in an era when Jump ships are more prevalent travel between stars is easier and safer (comfortable) – the Terran Government would unleash something far worse than that of a claim jumper ….. they would dispatch a military governor, together with a retinue of military and an official of the taxation department!

Remember sooner or later the the taxman cometh ….. they don’t need to be a claim jumper when taxation revenue is all they really want.

QUOTE: Armour

How much armour is on a Jump Ship? So just increase it so that you have a comparable amount.

Suggested amount?

QUOTE: Exodus - Make the story move along.

And if it is not believable, suspend belief like so many other times within the Canon history?

The entire IS history would require a major paradigm shift if the Exodus were never to occur – I have considered it – the initial steps are easy to consider but there on it is wide open to interpretation ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/05/19 01:25 PM
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No the Government does not have a major influence upon a colony and its colonists as you are alluding to here. The Government Department is acting as an oversight position similar to the Lands Titles Office – they are recognising incoming Corporations Claims as to new worlds – Legislation would require a mountain of paperwork to be filed to verify the Claim so that it is all on the ‘up-and-up’ – and provides evidence if they lied so that they can be sued for damages.
The Government Department also recognises the legal purchases of the claim – thus providing for a legal deed to the planet – and who the colonists are so that there is no double claiming of worlds as it were.
In addition consider the political backlash if a government allowed a colony of 20,000 – 40,000 people be established to only find out a few years later they all died. And their deaths could have been prevented if the government had instituted mandatory oversight
Such a situation could bring down the government – No, it would be better to have the laws in place first, ensure a level of due diligence and if they did all die at least the government could say they did all they could do to save them. No blame could be placed upon the current government administration.
In addition – How do you get out of the Terran System when the Government controls all of this space with their Navy and they would also have some control mechanism upon all space docs who construct colony vessels and supply them with all their supplies to construct the colony?
You just showed the government has almost absolute control over colonizing worlds.
But in canon, the initial colonizing effort did NOT have naval assets with them. Only after one of the jumpships misjumped were they required to have them.
You don't see that the colonists settled where they wanted to? The government coming in and taking over is where the issues start.
This basically says you do not own anything until you give the government it wants, and with this, they can move ownership to themselves, their businesses, or friends. In other words, the only ones doing exploring or colonizing would be the government at this point. Yet they didn't have any claims to the world or region before someone got there. The paradox is amazing, yet not recognized?
ghostrider
08/05/19 01:34 PM
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With this way of thinking, the government should know every settlement formed on every world. Yet they didn't.

The duck is a duck statement comes from the government, which according to you, has no control over colonies, yet they can sell them to the highest bidder. require full registration, military personnel stationed there, as well as escort. The government controls the entire process. You explained that quite well if you reread your last 2 post. There is an illusion of freedom in this, yet in the end, the politicians have the final say in all of this.
So how is this not governmentally controlled?

But in response to the initial question.
No. There is no reason for new rules to deal with colonization.
The ship is too expensive to build, and completely unnecessary. Multiple dropships can and were used to do so, and cover the job well. And the plus side... the dropships can be reconfigured to be used for other things. A lot less costly then the large ship.
Now a kicker. The idea that the colony ship should stay around the planet, as well as that same one being used to move more shows a complete contradiction to logic here. Pick one and stick with it.
Requiem
08/05/19 11:25 PM
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QUOTE: You just showed the government has almost absolute control over colonizing worlds.

Oversight control does not equate to absolute control.

Absolute control relates to who can and can’t go – oversight is just that the colonists put forward their lists of people – The Government would then put forward recommendations as to additional personnel requirements – engineers, doctors etc.

Absolute control would also infer control over the colony – a military governor and his /her retinue of guards to act as the law for the colony. This is where a Totalitarian government would demand to have this person appointed to represent their requirements, and yet in this scenario there is no governor to be seen – thus the duck analogy does not hold water.

QUOTE: The government coming in and taking over is where the issues start.

After many years of independent control by the colonists the Terran Government (together with their Navy and Marines) decide to send out the tax collectors and a military governor – once they have the Navy to do so – this is where I believe the trouble will start.

QUOTE: This basically says you do not own anything until you give the government it wants, and with this, they can move ownership to themselves, their businesses, or friends.

Sorry, no – as stated above the government recognises the transfer in the claim from one party to another via a third party clearing house. They are just establishing records of that transfer and taking their taxation amount on the transfer amount.

QUOTE: With this way of thinking, the government should know every settlement formed on every world. Yet they didn't.

Yes, the government should know the location of every colony.

However for what-ever reason people move on / colonies fracture over time / colonies create more colonies / pirates create colonies etc So that the Terran Government does not know the location of these off shoot colonies.


QUOTE: he ship is too expensive to build, and completely unnecessary.

Livestock – transporting within a cage for multiple years? again recommend you look at live transport images - the way I am suggesting is the only humane way of doing it.
There is no class of drop ship that is designed for large number of herd animals surviving over a period of time of up to 2 years as evidenced within the Kerensky Exodus or before that.

Muscle atrophy of the Colonists – within a Jump ship / Drop ship there are no grav decks – and the use of gravity burns – where is all the fuel stored – the issue of children / the issue of infants have not been addressed.

Numbers – there is no way you can say there are enough Jump ships / drop ships to ensure an adequate number of colonists from Terra to all the surrounding worlds without introducing the concept of a ship that is pre designed to transport all people / animals (in large numbers) and all their colony equipment in one hit to establish a viable colony.

Yes, they are expensive but the people would demand no less – refer to Kennedy stating they would put a man on the moon – similar to this.

QUOTE: The idea that the colony ship should stay around the planet, as well as that same one being used to move more shows a complete contradiction to logic here. Pick one and stick with it.

The ship transports the colony to the new world
The ship stays in orbit whilst the colony is being built
Once built it returns to Terra to collect new colonists
The ship transports the new colonists to a new world
The ship stays in orbit whilst the new colony is being built
Once built it returns to Terra to collect even newer colonists

Problem?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/06/19 03:53 AM
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oversight is just that the colonists put forward their lists of people – The Government would then put forward recommendations as to additional personnel requirements
Oversight allows them to pick who can go and who can't. They pick the healthy, so any one that isn't, doesn't go. Simple accusations of a crime will cause people to be pulled out, even if it was a false claim.
And appointing people? Really? You don't think that would be someone in the family or a friend?

transporting within a cage for multiple years?
With the exception of the exodus, where are you getting years from?
The area between the IS and the clans homeworlds isn't that long. Less then a single year.
Now if you are sending something from the TC thru the FS/Terra/LC, then yes years, if you don't stop or by the animals closer to the place you are going.

the government recognises the transfer in the claim from one party to another via a third party clearing house.
Again. This means the government says if you can have it or not.
I wonder if you really know what colonization really is. A group of people, most not sponsored, go out and put down a homestead where ever. Most are trying to get away from the government, or at least part of it. It is not the huge transplant of a city the size of LA or NYC, but small groups. Some started at less then 100. Possible even less.
What you are proposing, seems to be a massive effort by the states, to create a realm outside of the home front. The Hemegony lost control over the people the left/fled the government there. It was not some huge 20,000 population going to one world. They scattered to several worlds.

There is no class of drop ship that is designed for large number of herd animals surviving over a period of time of up to 2 years as evidenced within the Kerensky Exodus or before that.
Modifying some to do the job would be why. Much like there is no mech bays on a Mule dropship, yet units make them. Same with removing the fighter bays on a Leopard, and putting in an additional bay or two.

the issue of children / the issue of infants have not been addressed.
You said it yourself. The screening process would resolve this. The only issue that might happen, is pregnancy on the trip there. And as you said, bring a fuel tanker with you, or maybe store some on the ships. The dropships need enough to get to the world and back to the jumpship, if they aren't being stripped to start the colony. And what do you know. Jumpships have tanks that they keep fuel in, as they don't run out a lot.

there is no way you can say there are enough Jump ships / drop ships to ensure an adequate number of colonists from Terra to all the surrounding worlds without introducing the concept of a ship that is pre designed to transport all people / animals (in large numbers) and all their colony equipment in one hit to establish a viable colony.
Yet you suggest that there are an abundance of ships to take on the clans and invade their home world. Now there isn't enough to colonize worlds?
So which is it?
And the excuse comes back to haunt you. There is no solid number of ships written down.
ghostrider
08/06/19 01:28 PM
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Another point that came to mind.
You want to keep some sort of influx to the colony going, as supplies are going to be use, and accidents do happen.
A part for a water purifier may go bad, but you didn't bring a replacement for it.
With this, you can constantly be bringing in more people with said supplies. Even if it is only one or two people.
As said before. A rewrite is not needed. Use what is there. It might actually follow how colonies are done. Small groups looking for a new life.

And if the houses had the ability to just make a dozen worlds set up with an awesome economy, why didn't the rebuild or make new ones in their own territories? This logic is hard to overcome.

Religions, in general, are not going to be sending people out from civilized worlds. That removes their ability to bring in more people to tithe to the churches, as well as cause the leaders the discomfort of not having their luxuries on hand. The few that might, would be small, and unable to do more then book passage on other ships heading in the direction they want to go, the rent a ship to head out, if there is no other option.
Requiem
08/06/19 09:46 PM
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QUOTE: Oversight allows them to pick who can go and who can't.

Please re-read – Govt. officials stating the party needs more Doctors does not mean they must take a certain “Party Official Dr.” with them. The Colonists still have the final say as who they want on their team.

If the Government had the final say – they would just choose from their list, there would be a military governor as well as a state military unit going with the Govt. Backed Colony – the space explorers who find the viable worlds they would also have to work for the Govt. and not a large corporation – I have not gone full Totalitarian Government at this stage.

QUOTE: transporting within a cage for multiple years?

First Exodus – simple mathematics – how long would it take to supply a colony vessel – Months? – plus there is the Jump distance / recharge time at each point and in addition to this the time spent in space whilst the colony is being constructed – so yes years!

Remember the path the Exodus fleet took to what would become known as the clan home worlds is not the same path the Clans took to invade the IS – in the canon it was what close to / over 2 years? So yes the medical issues such as muscle atrophy would have been explained and yet were completely overlooked once more.

QUOTE: The government recognises the transfer in the claim from one party to another via a third party clearing house. Again. This means the government says if you can have it or not.

When purchasing your home does the government say you can have it or not? (Bank can but the government can’t). They just recognise the transfer of the title and the exchange of all the cheques – I have sat in on one of these and it is just all the relevant people sitting at a table exchanging documents / cheques until everyone is happy – so again no the government doesn’t have a person in the room controlling the purchase.

QUOTE: Some started at less then 100. Possible even less.

Cost – in the time of sailing ships 100 people colony vessels were common.

However when you are discussing transplanting colonists to another world I would like to ask how many people make a colony viable from a cost analysis projection – The costs would require a very large and very well-funded Colony to be considered viable from a cost benefit analysis – giving it due consideration 20,000 to 40,000 people at a single move could be considered a viable amount from a cost analysis. However I cannot see the same from a 100 people venture in the far future.

The only limiting factor for a 100 person colony is technology – if the ships being constructed were of a size that only 100 people at a go could go. Then there is the issue of the number of colonies – if you were transporting only 100 people at a go it would take far longer to establish colonies on all the IS worlds than projected in the canon – a more realistic figure would be 500 plus years just to colonise the IS from the first exodus.

The only rational thought is large people movers and many off them to colonize the entire of the IS in approximately 200 years.

Also what I am suggesting here is not one or two colony ships establishing a few colonies on a few worlds – what I am suggesting is a major investment by the people and the corporations of Terra to invest in Colony expansion within a short period of time – Necessitating a massive building project at the same time to manufacture these ships in space – requiring a massive support base(s) on the Luna and Mars Surfaces – thus they are producing many vessels each year and as time progresses the size of these shipyards increases and the number of ships increases – Thus by the end of the first Century I would say a few thousand ships now exist and move between the stars as either Colonist Vessels / Logistic Transport / Cruise Liners.

QUOTE: There is no class of drop ship that is designed for large number of herd animals surviving over a period of time ….. Modifying some to do the job would be why.

Consider a Mule Dropship – what would the area be if you converted all the lower decks that were used for cargo into a hydroponics bay for grass for livestock animals (as we can all say pens do not work) – Could you say you would have even one square kilometre of grass for the animals? – How about if we convert it to football fields (soccer) say six to nine as a realistic estimation for a Mule? How many animals – Cattle / sheep / pigs / ducks etc – could you realistically put on these fields? And then remember these are zero g for most of the time when not conducting a gravity burn – thus they must be held in a pen whilst not in a gravity burn – and how long would this be? Muscle atrophy plus other problems would become evident over a long time within a dropship .
Plus there is also the issue of confined space – is an animal comes down sick the entire dropships complement of animals will in all probability come down sick

Sorry but unless there is a vast number of mules and they have a permanent internal gravity deck that have been established for animal transport alone I cannot see how it can actually work to transport a vast number of animals to establish a viable herd numbers upon a new colony.

QUOTE: T he issue of children / the issue of infants have not been addressed. You said it yourself. The screening process would resolve this. The only issue that might happen, is pregnancy on the trip there

Sorry again no, Colonies equals families which equals children!

Children need to live in an almost continuous gravity environment whist they are growing – if you they will have growth defects in size and muscle mass by the time they reach the colony and a somewhat normal gravity.

QUOTE: Jumpships have tanks that they keep fuel in, as they don't run out a lot.

Contingency plan – a what if – how many expeditions of this size are allowed to commence without having contingencies upon contingencies established – an example - How many did Apollo 11 have?

QUOTE: Yet you suggest that there are an abundance of ships to take on the clans and invade their home world. Now there isn't enough to colonize worlds? So which is it?

The Initial Exodus was what 1,000 years before the Clans? So apples and oranges.

As for my future Alt. Universe History – Omika / Victor Empire post kicking out all belligerent Clans from the IS – Not only would normal Jump Ships / Drop Ships be used for colonization – there would still be ex colony ships which could be used – example White Swan has some that they use as cruise liners they could very easily rent them out once again to transport a new wave of colonists into the Deep Periphery.
Also at this stage if Warships are being remade I do not see the problem with new commercial colony vessels being manufactured at the same time – why not start re-building new commercial dock yards? How many new ‘Mech / vechicle / power armour / aerospace production facilities were built at this time? I cannot see why new dock yards are also not being built at the same time – a renaissance of technology has occurred so why not spread it to ALL areas with the IS?

Yes there are no solid number written down – but in your own Alt Universe the point becomes irrelevant.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/06/19 10:55 PM
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The Colonists still have the final say as who they want on their team. Only from the list the government will allow. Not saying they would say only, but they would stop those they did not want leaving. Smuggling is possible, but you would risk losing your supplies for this?
And with requiring military escorts, you honestly think the colony would not have a military 'advisor' on world?

First Exodus – simple mathematics – how long would it take to supply a colony vessel – Months? – plus there is the Jump distance / recharge time at each point and in addition to this the time spent in space whilst the colony is being constructed – so yes years! So every colony is going from Terra to the clan home worlds? And you forgot to show the part of that how long question with the initial part of it. EXCEPT THE EXODUS. But then this would also assume the SLDF naval command was completely stupid, and didn't have ships heading for a spot to rendezvous with fleet heading out. Or there were not any stockpiles along their path. How many 'forgotten' caches are there?

Get off the numbers. Only a few colonies were started off with a cost/production mindset. Most were just started by those trying to find a better life. The explosion from Terra was not sponsored by the Hegemony. They were worried they would lose control, and tried to stem the flow out of it. The Hegemony government had more control then most nations today. It was their monopoly of the sky and even resources that allowed this. Part of why people wanted out. Maybe that is where you need to start. Why people left. Maybe then, it might be seen why colonies were not complete city transplants. Well other then time limits on the 'realm' for the alt.
ghostrider
08/06/19 11:09 PM
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The only rational thought is large people movers and many off them to colonize the entire of the IS in approximately 200 years.
It is no where near the only rational thought. It is opposite of such thinking.
Growing a colony is where it is at, not the founding of them. And ANYONE who finances such and a deal would very much retain control to it. But this set up in NOT a colony, but a specific task, such as making an outpost.

However when you are discussing transplanting colonists to another world I would like to ask how many people make a colony viable from a cost analysis projection. How many colonies would never be cost effective? How many would even care, as long as they are surviving on the world, away from the thumb of others? Pure costs does not create, nor sustain a colony. As soon as it isn't effective anymore, they would drop said society without much warning. You can always find more people willing to go out, and not have to pay to move the ones there off world. But that is real world actions here. The future is not going to change this.

And for the record. The Hegemony did NOT fund the expansion past it's border. A few outposts or mining ventures being the extremely rare exception. The banks would not risk it, unless they knew what was there. Religion would be keen to stay out of it, unless they needed to flee in a hurry. And yet, all of this were small groups. Immigration is more of what you are looking at, not starting colonies. And that is still not something to re-write the rules to make a huge ship. They would use what is there.

Necessitating a massive building project at the same time to manufacture these ships in space – requiring a massive support base(s) on the Luna and Mars Surface. So these colonies would have tens of thousands sent there to start making it? That is exactly what you are hinting at.
No. A few hundred might be too many, considering needing air, water, food and such, which meant space on a dropship or continuous resupplies. It was be stupid to try the main influx before anything was built. This might be a fiction game, but trying to suggest real life would be the fantasy is backwards.
ghostrider
08/06/19 11:40 PM
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The only rational thought is large people movers and many off them to colonize the entire of the IS in approximately 200 years.
Stop right there. This statement is actually the complete opposite of reality.
Get the idea that moving tens of thousands of people in a one trip out of your mind. Or maybe you should look at the RTCs ability to move their entire unit in one shot. The infantry being the main focus. Thousands of soldiers are moved without the need for a larger then warship ship. But wait. There are cargo ships that would go with them to carry the things needed to start. But again. Small numbers to start it is the better way to go. Growing the colony is what is needed.
And multiple worlds were being colonized at once. By normal dropships.

How many animals – Cattle / sheep / pigs / ducks etc – could you realistically put on these fields? How many do you need? Shipping meat has been done for ages, and yet now it has to be locally grown? A small number of people starting the building process could bring a few in and start breeding them. Bringing in more to keep the genetics going would be required for a while, but then that is a fact no matter how you do this. It is also another reason for not having more then even a couple hundred to start building the support needed.
Sorry again no, Colonies equals families which equals children! The initial settlement wouldn't have them. They would come in later as the colony became self sustaining. And that could very well be one system at a time. Planetfall until the next supply run, then rest at the next habitable system.

The Initial Exodus was what 1,000 years before the Clans? So apples and oranges.
I love this one. But you are right. There were far more ships in the Exodus time then in the IS during the clan invasion. And by suggesting the naval quartermaster was completely incompetent as they did not have supplies in route to meet the force before it left the IS, shows how little you know of logistics. This is not including all those caches and such scattered around they could draw from on their way out. But then, that would require looking beyond saying canon is wrong, as it doesn't fit your vision.

Yes there are no solid number written down – but in your own Alt Universe the point becomes irrelevant.
And again. Saying canon is wrong, then saying your alt show this is where a lot of this problem is coming from. If you want to say canon is screwed up, do so without needing changes so the alt makes sense. Otherwise, only talk about the alt.
Requiem
08/07/19 01:34 AM
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QUOTE: you honestly think the colony would not have a military 'advisor' on world?

To start off with I believe it would be a political decision as to how the people of Terra view the situation – so no, there are no military advisors to start off with because of politics.

QUOTE: So every colony is going from Terra to the clan home worlds?

No, privately owned ships (such as those owned by White Swan) will remain in the IS plus others – many will go with Kerensky but not all.

QUOTE: So every colony is going from Terra to the clan home worlds?

Supply a colony ships – one month to four months maximum
Travel time to the new colony world – initially no more than about a month and as the distance increases out to the Deep Periphery up to nine months
Construction of a colony – Depending upon its complexity and the materials used 18 to 36 months would not be unthinkable to establish the viable colony.

QUOTE: Only a few colonies were started off with a cost/production mindset.

Sorry I disagree …. All of them would have had a cost/production mindset – Logistics and Accountancy would demand nothing else.

Idealistic Dreams on go so far, it is with strong economic data and a sound backer those dreams can become a reality.

QUOTE: Growing a colony is where it is at, not the founding of them.

Rational thought – if you can grow at 20,000 to 40,000 people at a time via one colony ship does this not demonstrate a successful long tem colony plan? Consider the High Rate of Growth multiple visits from a single colony ship would pose to a colony.

A colonies government changes over time – a council of individuals to something more structured such as a parliament.

QUOTE: This might be a fiction game, but trying to suggest real life would be the fantasy is backwards.

Depression – President Roosevelt – between 1933 to 1936 – Economic and financial reform programs included public works projects – have a look at all the New Deal Projects.

So yes it can be done.

QUOTE: Stop right there. This statement is actually the complete opposite of reality.

Comparing the transportation of a military unit to that of civilian colony – again apples and oranges – consider how a military unit moves with the minimum of supplies to that of a civilian where they move with the maximum of supplies – a civilian will be taking far more equipment as well as personal goods that a military man would ever be allowed to take (one sea chest) Vs. One Sea Container (That is on a container ship) remember a civilian will be taking all of their personal effects – look at how much is moved when you move house – this is how much each family would want to take with them to the new colony.

QUOTE: Animal breeding

Animal breeding to a viable amount to service a colony you are looking at decades again not a few years via utilizing my colony ship.
QUOTE: The initial settlement wouldn't have them. (Children)

Disagree … what are the families going to do leave them on Terra for 10 years until they can come? Sorry but I cannot see the validity in this statement.

QUOTE: And by suggesting the naval quartermaster was completely incompetent as they did not have supplies in route to meet the force before it left the IS, shows how little you know of logistics.

Really???? …… taking advantage of logistics and logistics routes …….. so that you can cripple their advance ……

QUOTE: If you want to say canon is screwed up, do so without needing changes so the alt makes sense. Otherwise, only talk about the alt.

Examples / comparisons are required so that I can put my point forward.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/07/19 01:27 PM
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Travel time to the new colony world – initially no more than about a month and as the distance increases out to the Deep Periphery up to nine months
So there is no resupply areas closer to the colonizing areas? That is plain stupid. A resupply base is required to keep a steady flow of goods for the colonists to buy. Just accidents alone would make this profitable. Something like a FOB for the military.

No, privately owned ships (such as those owned by White Swan) will remain in the IS plus others – many will go with Kerensky but not all.
So this entire post was about the alt, not a real question on the canon lines. This is almost consistent. Privately owned ships DO rent out to those going into the periphery. It costs more, but it is done. Even renting one in the periphery realms is possible.

All of them would have had a cost/production mindset – Logistics and Accountancy would demand nothing else.
So again. the government would be controlling it all?
And no. Unless sponsored by the government or banks, the profit mindset wasn't really there. It was independent groups doing most of the colonization. Why is this so hard to comprehend? Get off the accountant aspect of this, and you might see the fault in that line of thinking.

Rational thought – if you can grow at 20,000 to 40,000 people at a time via one colony ship does this not demonstrate a successful long tem colony plan
Not at all. You are risking that many on something that may well fail because of a natural disaster or crop failure. And setting up to house and feed them is an issue.


Comparing the transportation of a military unit to that of civilian colony – again apples and oranges – consider how a military unit moves with the minimum of supplies to that of a civilian where they move with the maximum of supplies
Individually this may be true, but the infantry transports carry more in the way of food, ammunition and other things, which would counter the extra personal things. And with moving things, the colonist would be taking only the bare minimum, if sponsored. The rest would be shipped with the logistics coming in. If going out on their own, then they would have what ever was important, and start again. Paying for space is the issue.

Really???? …… taking advantage of logistics and logistics routes …….. so that you can cripple their advance ……
The exodus Kerensky took. Are you not reading the whole statement? No one knew he was leaving, so crippling their advance wouldn't be done. Hell, it wasn't done.

Examples / comparisons are required so that I can put my point forward.
This is not a point like you want to make it out. This is a nagging on canon because you can't do what you want to. Well following the canon rules. Either keep it all canon or all alt. This whole thread would have been a lot shorter if you had.
ghostrider
08/07/19 01:37 PM
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Now. The initial landing of the colony wouldn't have children with them, for the most part, as it would be too dangerous for them.
Waiting 10 years is garbage. They can come in a few months, once the adults get shelter and such up and running. And the children don't need to make the trip at one time.

Trading posts would be set up to sell items to anyone going out. This bs of traveling years isn't going to work.
Your cost idea would only come to making a market for selling good to those moving further out.
And no one, and get this right, besides the exodus, takes years to get to their destination for creating a colony.
Exploring would. And that doesn't have the equipment for colonizing, nor would it have children that aren't apprentices for the crew.
300 light years out, would take about 10 weeks. So 2 1/2 months, not 2 years. Even the expansion of the Hegemony had certain points that weren't 2 years out. They set up staging areas for colonizing near by areas.
Other then trying to argue, I don't see how this isn't sinking in.

Canon will not fulfil your vision of your alt. Stop trying to suggest changes as most canon players don't want such things.
And they would produce warships that would be used to kill others. A full mobile military base is a very nasty thing to have in a system. Now add the dropships, like Vengeances and assault dropships, and what do you know. A defensive base with the ability to wipe out anyone in the system. And that isn't including the weapons on the ship itself.
Requiem
08/07/19 04:45 PM
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QUOTE: So there is no resupply areas closer to the colonizing areas?

Initial Exodus – How can there be another resupply base when they do not even exist?

Approx. 100 years into the Initial Exodus this may be considered – However, how many Colony worlds have the infrastructure to even contemplate building resupply goods? Quality Control of unforeseen goods as ‘Caveat Emptor’ comes to mind here – Risk Aversion theory – can you trust another colony to have the goods you need whereas a Terran Firm can have them and you can view the quality of them before you leave. If a resupply base was to established I believe it would be for supplemental purposes only - water stocks – food – animals (in the event part of the herd had to be destroyed due to a disease).


QUOTE: So again. the government would be controlling it all?

Does the government control the manufacture of a supertanker, the purchase of a a fleet of new commercial airline aircraft?

Sorry but financing cannot be removed from the equation – have any new projects ever not considered how much it is going to cost?

QUOTE: Not at all. You are risking that many on something that may well fail because of a natural disaster or crop failure. And setting up to house and feed them is an issue.

How many countries have national census so that they can adequately plan for the future requirements of their citizens by taking into account projected increases in population.

I believe the colonists would do the same – they would prepare for any future developments as best they can.

Situations that are beyond their control are beyond their control.

QUOTE: infantry transports carry more in the way of food, ammunition and other things, which would counter the extra personal things.

Consider the modern cruise liner industry for food – way way above anything the military would take – in Vino Veritas!

QUOTE: the colonist would be taking only the bare minimum, if sponsored.

Sorry but I disagree, Risk Theory again – you must have everything with you that you will need in the future – what will you do if this second ship with all the logistics never arrives? Pack up and go home because the colony does not have the resources to survive for a prolonged duration of time?
The ship I have designed will have the space for everything – this is one of its drawcards in that the colonists and everything they will need are all on the same ship travelling together – risk minimised – costs minimised as you do not have to rent a second ship – all in one cost allows for greater cost minimisation by the future colonists.

QUOTE: The exodus Kerensky took. Are you not reading the whole statement? No one knew he was leaving, so crippling their advance wouldn't be done. Hell, it wasn't done.

I thought you were discussing the Clan Invasion of the IS not Kerensky – so yes crippling the clans by eliminating their logistics should be considered.

QUOTE: The initial landing of the colony wouldn't have children with them, for the most part, as it would be too dangerous for them.
And yet I have a colony ship in orbit for the next 18-36 months to allow the construction team to manufacture a viable colony – buildings, dwellings, roads, infrastructure etc
And once the colony has been established and is ready to live in at the end of the 18-36 months is it not possible to consider the colony as safe as it is going to get – thus the children can then come down? Thus a second ship bring the children from Terra in a couple of months is again a futile expense as well as putting an unnecessary stain upon the children – living with their parents on the same colony ship makes more sense and will keep the children happy and well adjusted.

QUOTE: Trading posts

Sometime beyond the Initial Exodus I would consider the establishment of more permanent trading posts – once supply / trading fleets become more common within the IS.

Where you get your goods depends upon when you started your voyage (which age you are in – what year is it?) which planet you started from, your route to your destination, and your destination itself.

QUOTE: 300 light years out, would take about 10 weeks. So 2 1/2 months, not 2 years. Even the expansion of the Hegemony had certain points that weren't 2 years out.

Extract from above –
Supply a colony ships – one month to four months maximum
Travel time to the new colony world – initially no more than about a month and as the distance increases out to the Deep Periphery up to nine months
Construction of a colony – Depending upon its complexity and the materials used 18 to 36 months would not be unthinkable to establish the viable colony.

Travel time to the new colony world - “initially no more than about a month and as the distance increases out to the Deep Periphery up to nine months”.

QUOTE: A full mobile military base is a very nasty thing to have in a system.

Correct, this is the logical extension of a colony vessel – once militarised they would become a mobile base from which to launch a planetary invasion from – they would become the Command in Control Flagship surrounded by smaller warships of all types.

These bases could very easily explain the small number of ships required by the Clans to invade the IS.

These ship types will sooner or later become the next warship type – they are the logical next warship type that would be proposed – they are a “Battlestar” as it were!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/07/19 11:10 PM
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Initial Exodus – How can there be another resupply base when they do not even exist?
How many hidden League bases were found? And how many supply routes were still running? A simple order to send supplies to one spot would be so simple that most would not even know it was done.
And with this, how many known bases were along their general route?

have any new projects ever not considered how much it is going to cost?
Actually, quite a few. Outposts will never generate money. Military bases. Now how about setting up bases on worlds that people can not survive without domes and environmental suits? They need the resources, but in itself, it will never pay for itself, much less profit from it. Even a listening outpost falls into this category.

Consider the modern cruise liner industry for food – way way above anything the military would take – in Vino Veritas!
And yet screaming about costs, so all this is over budget. Look at how much food is used on an aircraft carrier each day. The ones a mile long have to constantly get in supplies in order to just function. Something 5 miles long would never survive long. Growing food? Not enough fields to keep the population fed. And that isn't even considering your ranching idea. Maybe you should do some research on that.

Sorry but I disagree, Risk Theory again – you must have everything with you that you will need in the future
Lost the context of the statement again? Personal belongings would be kept to a minimum. The rest of the personal effects would be shipped at a later time. And there were more then a few colonies started that weren't planned. Mishap in a system, and the people had to flee to the planet and start anew.

These ship types will sooner or later become the next warship type.
Not later. As soon as they created a ship this large, the military would build their war versions of it. It not being the ones to develop it, and the commercial sectors copied it.
Now the paradox comes again. Leaving the large colony ship in the system is not going back and getting another colony ready to start. Or shipping in supplies to the one it was part of building. This is the contradiction that has the logic holes in it. So what? The get more supplies/start a new colony? Or become the military base for the system? The story changes when it suits.
Requiem
08/08/19 05:56 AM
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QUOTE: A simple order to send supplies to one spot would be so simple that most would not even know it was done.

If this was done it would require access to multiple Jump-ships, Money and Political Power – the only ones who could possible consider doing this is either the Military (Black Ops. Team) or a Very Large Corporation who has access to resources most countries wouldn’t have.

QUOTE: Outposts will never generate money.

Think long term – over 100 years – industry / resources / mining etc. are established, it is only now that you would see the colony economy starting to get out of the red and into the black.

QUOTE: And yet screaming about costs, so all this is over budget. Look at how much food is used on an aircraft carrier each day.

Aircraft carries do not include wine list etc
Colony ships – hydroponics / aquaculture bays – with a population of over 40,000 people most of the food would be held in storage throughout the entire cruise, only a small percentage would be grown on board – this is all planned for.

QUOTE: Personal belongings would be kept to a minimum. The rest of the personal effects would be shipped at a later time.

This statement is based upon cost – which is the lesser amount? Taking it with you on the colony ship or hiring a second ship and the dropships necessary to transport 40,000 people’s personal effects – How many mules would that be? 400 ? so how many Jump-ships?

I still believe that if you have a single ship that is designed to take everything in one hit it wold be exponentially more cost effective.

QUOTE: So what? The get more supplies/start a new colony? Or become the military base for the system? The story changes when it suits.

This statement is dependent upon the Government’s politics – purse strings – the desire of the people – if an election are coming up soon – and the political power of the military over the government.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/08/19 01:20 PM
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QUOTE: A simple order to send supplies to one spot would be so simple that most would not even know it was done.
If this was done it would require access to multiple Jump-ships, Money and Political Power – the only ones who could possible consider doing this is either the Military (Black Ops. Team) or a Very Large Corporation who has access to resources most countries wouldn’t have.
Do you not understand the principles of commerce and shipping? First off, this statement was about the Exodus, and how it would be able to resupply before it left the IS. Second off, this is done even during war, as some units do have shipment of arms and ammo being sent to a location they can pick it up just before going into the target system and even getting it there afterwards. Merc don't normally have extra ships to do this with, and they don't have house shipments coming in.

Think long term – over 100 years – industry / resources / mining etc. are established, it is only now that you would see the colony economy starting to get out of the red and into the black.
Funny. Most of the thread has the push to make money in less then 5 years. The need for 20,000 people to build up an industrial world has been the main push. NOW it is long term? And some bases will still never make money. Take a fueling depot in an uninhabited system. Put there to refuel ships bypassing the heavily armed systems. Not commercial but place by the houses to do just that. NO INCOME what so ever. All out going costs.

Aircraft carries do not include wine list etc
So you don't know much about the recent military things going on. Though I will give you, that it isn't for diner but in the store onboard. And it isn't the best wines.

Taking it with you on the colony ship or hiring a second ship and the dropships necessary to transport 40,000 people’s personal effects.
Your own argument says they will have more things coming in. Even if it is just commerce ships coming to take the resources the colony is producing. So just arguments, or did you stop thinking beyond just what you want, not need?

This statement is dependent upon the Government’s politics – purse strings – the desire of the people – if an election are coming up soon – and the political power of the military over the government.
So knowing this, and not saying so, shows this is just for arguing.

One last thing with this post.
The government IS very much in control of colonization, even if done by big corporations.
Passports.
They DO control who doesn't go. And given a list of who they can bring with them, the colony leader has to choose from a list. Those on it, may not be government agents, but they could stop your best carpenter or some such thing.
And no. This isn't suggesting the military colonizations, as those are outposts and bases.
Requiem
08/08/19 08:10 PM
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If the statement was in regards to the exodus – please indicate this

Military resupply and commercial resupply depend upon the era and the number of available ships to conduct such a mission.

QUOTE: Most of the thread has the push to make money in less then 5 years.

Where did I say this?

QUOTE: a fueling depot in an uninhabited system.

Every gas station gets paid – even those in remote locations – the bill has to go somewhere?

QUOTE: wine list

Everyone on board an aircraft carrier can have wine with dinner and lunch as you can on a cruise liner?

QUOTE: import and export post Colony establishment

Dependent upon Colony economics and requirements - what is required and what has been produced within the

QUOTE: So knowing this, and not saying so, shows this is just for arguing.

“This statement is dependent upon the Government’s politics – purse strings – the desire of the people – if an election are coming up soon – and the political power of the military over the government. “, sorry but this is a valid statement.

Quote: They DO control who doesn't go.

So Governments / Large corporations can say ….. if I put a team together in my country I cannot travel to Mount Everest and Climb it?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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