Requiem
08/09/19 04:03 AM
1.158.206.105
|
QUOTE: Tukayyid
Year of Peace –
31 October 3050 – ilKhan Leo Showers is killed, halting Operation Revival
November 3051 – Operation Revival Resumes
Truce of Tukayyid – 1 May 3052
The Year of Peace is not a truce it is a cessation of hostilities – a good WW2 example is the period just before Dunkirk, that period of time which would become to be known as ‘phony war’.
QUOTE: The fantasy of the alt suggesting no one would ever violate this is complete garbage.
This is why the JAG Corp of your own army would have you up on charges – especially if the media received images of the action and which were then subsequently broadcasted.
How you fight in your realm is one thing – but in reality the War Crimes Tribunal exists and as a recruit it is drummed into you the the rules of law as it pertains to conflict and civilians / their property etc.
However, in Battletech these rules are constantly violated because no one ever bothers to read or understand the rules – it is just see enemy unit – destroy enemy unit – who cares where the enemy unit is mentality is rife throughout the game.
If the game adhered to the Ares Conventions you would see a vastly different game.
Though the Clans never signed the Document, thus they do whatever they want – which requires the IS forces to adapt to the changing tactics as necessary.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/09/19 12:48 PM
66.74.60.165
|
This is why the JAG Corp of your own army would have you up on charges
Yeah. Full fantasy here. The JAG would never put a ruler up on charges. Well not unless the military is about to turn completely against you, such as impeachment or revolt. They haven't in the past, and won't in the future. Soldiers would be, but not someone like the archon. Which they didn't when Katherine was destroying lives with her actions.
Year of Peace –
31 October 3050 – ilKhan Leo Showers is killed, halting Operation Revival
November 3051 – Operation Revival Resumes
Ok. I didn't think of this time. I was thinking after the battle of Tukyidd.
However, in Battletech these rules are constantly violated because no one ever bothers to read or understand the rules – it is just see enemy unit – destroy enemy unit – who cares where the enemy unit is mentality is rife throughout the game.
This is a war game. Not some psycological play of how a warrior's mental conditions are. See the enemy. He is on your property. Gee. Should we ask him why he is here?
Did he get off at the wrong stop?
Well, maybe after he is done destroying our stuff.
Well what about the rest of the unit with him?
If the game adhered to the Ares Conventions you would see a vastly different game.
There is no doubt about this. The entire fight with Amaris would have been far different as well as the first succession war. All states did crap, but the Combine would have been politically out casted for what they did. Granted, there would not be much else, as the CC and FWL had no physical contact with them, and would not stop their wars to let the FS and LC deal with it.
Though the Clans never signed the Document, thus they do whatever they want – which requires the IS forces to adapt to the changing tactics as necessary.
The clans are descendent of the SLDF. As such, they would have it instilled upon them to never use WMDs with the exception of warship bombardment. As such weapons promote horrible waste, they would not resort to nuke and other options. There is no honor in using them at all. As for treatment of civilians, that one would be one they ignore.
Odd post coming form someone that was demanding using nukes against the clans. Or total warfare against them.
Violating the articles in them, to avoid destroying jumpships, as well as wiping out depots without a second thought. Those depots have non warriors in them, as a warrior of the clans would never do the lowly job of a laborer.
|
Cray
08/09/19 01:31 PM
71.47.193.139
|
Quote:
If the game adhered to the Ares Conventions you would see a vastly different game.
It would be, but the Ares Conventions were suspended by the Star League in 2575 for the Reunification War, and then were formally abandoned by the Houses in the 2780s. They're centuries dead in the 31st Century.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Requiem
08/09/19 07:36 PM
1.158.206.105
|
Historically, yes a ruler is not held accountable, and rules in law have been put in place to ensure this cannot happen. However, a ruler is accountable to their people through a strong and fair media – Kurita, Liao this wouldn’t happen – though Steiner, Marik and Davion yes I believe it would.
If an enemy is attacking could they limit the damage by skirting around towns and cities / fighting in areas far removed from any civilians or agricultural infrastructure?
Cray – yes the Ares Conventions are long dead by 31st Century – However, Knights of Inner Sphere as well as other house unit commanders / mercenary unit commanders have a good reputation for adhering to these long dead documents – Could there have been an unofficial agreement by some to adhere to these rules and how pervasive could it have been in some militaries (even in Kurita’s DCMS – the first lord of the Genyosha had a god relationship with Wolf (Wolf Dragoons) could he have been a proponent of adhering to the old rules of war)?
QUOTE: Clans adhering to the Ares Conventions
POW caps as shown in the Somerset Strikers Cartoon?
Using Elementals to kill civilians in a city?
Respecting the rights of civilians to their property?
Respecting any civilians Rights?
Imposing their culture upon their conquered worlds – putting them into class groups – removing children from their families as they do on the Clan Home worlds?
Clans decimating cities during invasions?
Sorry but I am of the belief the clans also have a long lead mentality of the Ares Conventions – I believe that the Clans are under the impression their rules have superseded this document – thus over time their views have become warped as to what is right and wrong on the battlefield.
Yes it is an odd post, and yes I am being hypocritical to my beliefs – but I must also be a realist – if the game developers do not allow the IS to have warships at the time of Clan Invasion and the Clans use an orbital bombardment upon a city within Kurita space there is only one logical response – nuclear Kamikaze attacks. So unless the Clans can show remorse / remove all of their warships from the IS they will in all likelihood continue and expand onto ground warfare.
I believe this is how a Samurai of the 31st Century would act (Gen. Tojo is about as close a person historically we have to understand them)
And when you look at the Canon books for each clan and look at the number of Jump ships each of them have – they are the weakest link in the Clan Invasion – stop them and you stop them cold.
This tactic should have been discussed at least.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/09/19 07:38 PM)
|
ghostrider
08/10/19 01:16 AM
66.74.60.165
|
However, a ruler is accountable to their people through a strong and fair media – Kurita, Liao this wouldn’t happen – though Steiner,
Steiner? Really? So Katherine didn't lie and manipulate the populations by forcing the media to put her in the angel spotlight, while Victor, hell the entire family, as the devils consorts?
If an enemy is attacking could they limit the damage by skirting around towns and cities / fighting in areas far removed from any civilians or agricultural infrastructure?
Could you just hurl insults and get into a slap fight?
I thought war was to remove the enemies ability to fight. Removing food from them is one way to demoralize them. This causes and enemy to decide to deploy limited resources to delivering food, or let their people starve. Not much of a real tactician.
I don't agree with it, but then I never claimed to be one of the best. Self promotion makes you lose sight of reality at times.
So there is no way the clans could have evolved adhering to the conventions during the exodus and thru out their history?
Still clinging to the canonverse, and drowning in their logic holes, and yet complaining they are completely wrong, and yet the only way to fix it is to reverse the roles so the clans are at the receiving end of things?
And yet, not seeing the logic holes being formed by this perfect set up?
What am I saying? This would have removed the clans from being a threat to the IS in the way they were.
|
Requiem
08/10/19 02:11 AM
1.158.206.105
|
QUOTE: Steiner Media
Tharkan Media Associates who owns Tharkad Broadcasting Corporation who produces a well-regarded daily news program that covers events both inside and external to the Lyran realm.
As for Katherine she is adept at putting forth an appropriate media perception, to the point many fawn over her.
QUOTE: Evolution of the Clans with regards to the Ares Conventions
Putting aside the past and adopting a new way of living over time can be considered a fact.
However the rules the Clans initially put into place to limit the damage caused by their weapons can be considered to be a further development of the Ares Conventions to suit their current situation within Clan Space.
However, over time the interpretation of these rules can be reinterpreted into something other than what they were originally intended to reflect within the Clan society.
Thus by the time the Invasion of IS comes about the Clans rules have become a somewhat dogmatic and hash interpretation.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
10/05/19 07:58 PM
1.158.185.137
|
Is clan space too distant from the Inner Sphere?
I would answer this in the affirmative, yes, clan space is too far distant from the inner sphere.
If it were closer a new realm could have been established to connect the two together
Thus more conflict?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/05/19 11:20 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Want more conflict, then break up the states into smaller regions, like going back to before they became the successor states. Make the map so only 5 to 10 worlds form a multi system organization.
Yes, some of the major ones, like almost anything Defiance is in, would start dominating those around them, others could assist or even fight over those worlds. As Defiance does have an issue with food on Hespetus, staving them out is an option.
Firebombing all planets that sell food is one thought.
Choking them off of ores and such would be another. Maybe even having a civil war on Hespetus that destroys most of the lines, allowing only 3 or so models at a very reduced production rate, and doing the same with the ship yards.
It could be this very thing that breaks up the states, as accusations of who sponsored it, or rivals just have their factories coming on line, and thought to remove the competition.
Maybe ROM/Comstar decided to create issues, and did it so no one could rival their power.
Maybe the worlds that went independent started a whole grass roots effort and the state forces that are stationed on the worlds, decide to back them breaking off, with a huge number of them doing so. No chance to gather and send forces from capital worlds.
The new realm would take several generations to come to a point that they could even think of holding their own without support from the main IS states. And they would be just like the initial colonies. Not trusting one another, especially if they were supported by the different states in the IS. Much like the original exodus civil war.
|
Requiem
10/07/19 05:37 AM
1.158.185.137
|
... and yet is clan space too distant from the Inner Sphere?
For me yes it is too far distant. As it stands the two realms are two independent realms.
Wouldn't it have been better for the Battletech universe to be able to combine the Inner Sphere and Clan Space by 3150?
As isn't it taking an extremely long time just to get the next book from 3150 on-wards?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/07/19 11:43 AM
66.74.60.165
|
There are more logical alternatives then trying to make a CC sized realm pop up in less then 15 years. As suggested, it would start with the clan invasion and basically have to be done by the time the Civil war ends.
Now. What if the 'realm' was actually started earlier, such as 3000 or 3010?
In an effort to get resources, the LC or DC or even both, pushed out in to the periphery on their borders, far enough away from the clans line of invasion, as they were not touched.
The support for making this could well have been a secret part of the LC alliance agreement. Davion tactics combined with Steiner industry would be the case. So better then average defenses...
On the DC side, Comstar may have helped in order to gain an advantage over the FS/FC.
This would also explain the lack of black boxes during the later wars, as it was used to keep the FC part of it quiet from Comstar.
The fourth war could have had a secret agenda with this as well. The auxillery units attached to the better RCT's could have become the backbone of the garrisons for these very worlds.
As suggested in other threads, a few worlds would become the staging areas for further colonization as well as exploration of the areas they are in. This would allow a population build up with industries to support the explotation of that area. Not over night, but up to 40 or so years before the clans. Still pushing it a bit, but much better then a 5 year mad rush. Especially as the invasion had done so much damage to the IS worlds. The building would have been done before this happened.
As a side benefit, these very worlds could be the basis for your raids into the clans supply route.
Another thing is this could have been what set off the intel shadow war with Comstar, as someone might have found out about the operations and someone in the FC intel department stopped them, but exposed the entire network.
The 3039 war with the combine would not have happened, as the resources were being sent elsewhere, but the destruction of the Confederation could still have happened. More units getting combat experience and sent out instead of being disbanded.
Not perfect, but that is why I am not a developer for games. It does spread out the time for doing this.
|
ghostrider
10/07/19 11:53 AM
66.74.60.165
|
And the timeline of the game has never been steady.
I think the developers have run into issues threatening the entire IS with something other then a massive civil war. The WOB thing was shaky to begin with, and didn't seem to fit into anything, other then sell more books.
Now who would be the next boggy man? So far the DC's destruction of so many FS forces seems to be headed that way. But without the FS falling, it returns to the first war scenario, with the clans in the way.
If they destroy the FS, then they lose some players as well as destroy a lot of balance in the game. And yes, I think they did that with the destruction of the CC in the fourth war. The FWL should have become more powerful to counter this.
Still. non human enemies could exist, but I don't see how they would be able to fit into the game, as there would be no reason, other then clan Wolverine, for them to have mechs and the same type of technology.
|
Requiem
10/08/19 07:31 PM
1.158.185.137
|
Sorry, but I am not contemplating a “CC realm that will just pop-up”
What I am suggesting is that Kerensky formed the “Clan’s Realm” VERY much closer than the canon writings.
Thus the clan invasion could have occurred – the IS could have invaded huntress etc.
However given that the IS now knows of its close proximity further invasions by clans and IS could occur – as well as an under-ground black market of transport ships taking goods between the two realms. Also worlds between the two realms would now become strategically important (forward security bases etc.) – thus they would be needed to be fought over etc.
With a closer proximity between the two realms the future development of the game would have moved in a more positive direction. You could easily scrap the Jihad and everything there after …. And design a new alternate universe based upon this proximity.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/08/19 08:14 PM
66.74.60.165
|
There are more logical alternatives then trying to make a CC sized realm pop up in less then 15 years.
Notice the sized word in that line. Some how it is missing from the first line in your response.
With your alt, and referring to the other thread, it talks about a realm that Victor and Omi take over to fight the clans and the IS.
The time line starts as the clans invade.
Now. How does this realm become powerful enough to fight both sides, and not be the size of the CC or larger?
6 months of traveling time is close to what the FS forces would have had, if they didn't have a command circuit. A week for each jump being averaged, those on the TC border would take a while to get to the clan border. And moving troops like that happened a lot more often then you might think.
I can see the idea of moving clanspace closer to the IS might be considered a good thing, but when you really think about it, the clans would have been discovered a lot sooner. There were scouts other then Comstar doing searches for materials and even colonies to get away from the IS politics. Even pirates would have found them, as they were looking for prey.
There are relatively few worlds that would need to be 'fought' over in the supply lines between the IS and clans. Some of those very lines would become allied with the IS, as the clans became part of the Star League. The Falcons would be the main ones that would need to be removed, as the Smoke Jaguars were take out when the SLDF went after Huntress.
Now. Suggesting a more positive direction, does that mean more warfare? Then how about the clans don't get stopped, and now the entire IS has to deal with the clans, and the fighting on the outer edges are getting desperate.
As anything else wouldn't hold up for long.
One more thing. If the IS did have the jumpships and dropships you want to believe, they could have just sent in fleets to drop tank and infantry regiments on worlds and brought in mechs when the clans were weakened and out of ammo. This is you war of attrition.
|
Requiem
10/08/19 11:27 PM
1.158.185.137
|
Quote: “There were scouts other then Comstar doing searches for materials and even colonies to get away from the IS politics. Even pirates would have found them, as they were looking for prey”.
And yet the Clans have warships – and any-one that found them would suddenly disappear off the end of the map …. So no problem there!
Strategic bases from which to use as a spring-board will always be of military importance …
… a more positive direction ….. a more interesting story line that that of the Jihad etc ….
Quote: “As anything else wouldn't hold up for long”.
I am sure I could come up with something that would “hold up”
And yes war of attrition is the Clan’s Kryptonite – they just do not have the manpower to sustain a prolonged war – “Sibko” numbers are just not there
So overall I believe this was a mistake – Clan-space should have been very much closer to the Inner Sphere than given by Canon – the two realms should have been close enough that by 3150 they could have been considered one realm.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/09/19 01:48 AM
66.74.60.165
|
and any-one that found them would suddenly disappear off the end of the map
And that is the key. If the warships found anyone in the system. And with the clans, it isn't likely they had the warships escorting ships to their periphery, as they were more needed if another clan decided to strike.
Also, this is if the scouts came in after the warship was there.
Raiding clan outposts and worlds is different, as they would be looking for such an intrusion.
Also, Comstar did have warships that could very well have ran into clan ships before Comstar stopped using them if the clans were much closer.
Also worlds between the two realms would now become strategically important (forward security bases etc.)
Words that have been set up for staging areas would be, but colony worlds that have no value, other then food would be unlikely to become a battleground world, unless someone says it is a threat. Unlikely from the clans point of view, and the IS would be likely to keep forces out of the area, as the clans did show they were not ones to fight in cities if it could be avoided. But some IS commanders would do so because they think the clans were afraid to.
Another issue with being closer would have to deal with the time the clans invade. Closer would mean more ships being stopped at their border, which would in turn cause the clans to decide to launch much sooner then 3049. Hell, they might not even wait until the first succession war was over with.
As the alt is done as wanted, this is just food for thought. I don't think the clans were meant to do more then threaten the IS, and allow some things that would never happen otherwise, like the reformation of the League. But I guess they didn't learn that joining together limits non civil war fights.
|
Requiem
10/09/19 06:28 PM
1.158.185.137
|
Let us consider Politics Exodus to 4th Succession War
Clans – Isolationist – it was not until some-time around 3000 that a political movement was formed to take back the IS. Until then their navy was utilised for internal security and challenges from other Clans. They only left Clan Space once during this time – to hunt down the remnants of Clan Wolverine.
IS – Pre-occupied with the Succession Wars.
Comstar – when did they start sending out their ships looking for Kerensky? And if the followed the exodus fleet would not this mean they would start over by the Davion / Kurita Border (where Kerensky’s fleet departed the IS), so how long would it take for them know they ended up somewhere beyond the Steiner / Kurita border?
Is it not accurate / logical to say it would take a very long time from when they started to when they found them? So can we not say that the Canon history could still be considered to be accurate?
Pirates / Nomads – if the clans couldn’t secure their borders from these groups there is something wrong. Also why would they tell the IS that they found Kerensky’s lost fleet and who would even believe them?
Worlds between the IS and Clan Space
Food
Minerals
Forward jump point for invasion - re-supply points
Politics – the importance of your realm is proportional to the number of worlds you have – a point even the Clans appreciate
Closer does not mean they will attack earlier as this is a political decision not a geographical decision.
The invasion itself could then be more accurate and more realistic – more forces would be involved etc – from the myopic and silly story offered.
This, in my opinion, could lead to a better story line than that offered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/09/19 11:51 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Clan Wolverine was destroyed before the 3000's. So the warships leaving only once because of that is incorrect.
Another thing that is incorrect we the clans did not leave on the Davion/Kurita border, but straight north on the IS map, as they used that to return to the IS.
The Wolverines were the ones to head out near the Kurita/Davion border.
Closer does not mean they will attack earlier as this is a political decision not a geographical decision.
Actually, the attack came because they thought the IS had found the clans home worlds. The initial discussion was political. But was shot down by the Wolf's Dragoons solution. Had there been multiple breaches by different ships, it would have been geographic.
The pirates may not have even known they found Kerensky, but just a populated planet.
Which also makes me wonder why the Outbound Light arrived over Huntress and not another system. Well besides the story wanted it that way.
The Comstar search could well have been going on for longer then a few dozen years. It is possible they were searching since the 2800's. They had run into more then a few jump points that were sabotaged to discourage pursuit as written in the books. Blake would have known which direction the clans took as the HPG network was being used to get supplies to the fleet.
|
Requiem
10/10/19 05:46 PM
1.158.185.137
|
Clan Wolverine – timeline refers to during the establishment of the Clans not around the 3000’s
The Kerensky Fleet travelled to New Samarkand and then out though the Outworlds Alliance – refer Wiki, so no they did not go straight north!
Did the Clans believe they could exist in exile from the IS forever?
Refer wiki – The Great Debate – started the middle of the 30th Century – so approx. 2950
Outbound light found Huntress on 27 Sept 3048
So re-think this point.
As for the HPG network being used for the IS supplying the Exodus Fleet after they left – where is the evidence for this?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/13/19 11:18 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Not sure where I seen it suggest the Clans went thru the combine, out of the top, or where it was suggested their invasion followed the exodus trail back to the IS, so can't really do much with this. I want to say the original 3050 book, but only have a few things copied from it, as I didn't buy the original.
I think they changed history with the game with this.
Oddly enough, the Combine was immensely worried the SLDF was going to hit Luthien as general Kerensky held extended war games near it.
Might have been the Minnesota Tribe that dealt with the romp from the 'north' then out thru the 'east' or OA that seems to have this mind set.
Comstar did find a few worlds the exodus fleet used for resources while traveling. Barbados was one of them.
Now it is completely stupid for task force Serpent to have followed the exodus road, as the path shown by Trent would not have been that route. They followed the clan logistics, and that was no where near the exodus route. Otherwise, all supplies would have ended up near the OA, then shipped to the invasion corridor. That is far more unbelievable then the clans not bringing in extra supplies.
And Task force Serpent was worried about running into clan warships, which would NOT have been along the old exodus route.
|
Requiem
01/23/20 09:15 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Further essay reply to comments made:-
How many chances did the IS have to obtain Clan Technology? And yet the best reason anyone can come up with to say why the IS did not use Clan Technology is to say the IS did not have the money to manufacture it …. Manhattan Project …. Skunk Works ….. and every other hidden laboratory.
Have any Government ever considered money an issue when it comes to advanced military technology? The answer is no, they have never considered this an impediment.
So why here and why now? The only answer is that TPTB have a decided that it must be so, as part of their overarching agenda!
In any real world this can only be considered to be the most ridiculous statement ever – if the IS FS military didn’t want more advanced technology then why create NAIS; Why decode the Helm Memory core – and how much did these cost?
This is far more misleading when you bring in economics – if an IS military industrial complex was able to create Clan comparable weapons how much more profit could be generated in comparison to making only advanced IS weapons – being realistic, with Clan tech time the profit by two, three ... five is a real possibility?
The entire premise of the IS is unable to manufacture Clan tech due to money does NOT hold water!
So accept TPTB version if you want, but I (personally) will not – in my universe (Technological Rating F – Hyper Advanced) in my games the IS has access to everything the Clans had stored when Huntress fell to the SLDF and began manufacturing a year or more after this!
Consider the Clan invasion – exact numbers of soldiers were provided – and yet there is NO after action depletion report – there are NO reports concerning resupply – there are NO reports about units being reinforced BY Sibkos …. (and remember the Clan Home Worlds are 6 months away). The war (as written) however just continually demonstrates that the Clans remain at a 100% fighting strength whist the Invasion was fought from their Initial Invasion to Tukayyid where the majority of Clans suffered losses. And yet we are still expected to believe they retain a very high level of combat fighting efficiency?
The story is left murky … why, because if these reports were maintained the Clans ability to prosecute the war would show they were incapable of continuing the war – their warrior’s numbers are depleting at a too rapid rate to be replaced by warriors that are being produced by a Sibko system …
TPTB have motive to keep the Clan in the IS – they wanted to ensure the problem of the FC could never occur again – and this is the overarching goal – and this is what we see in 3150 maps – Clan empires to the scale of that of any Great IS House – and yet we are still expected to believe the people of the IS will accept a Totalitarian Government and a Caste driven society that will restrict their access to education, restrict their access to freedom of movement, restrict their access to religion, will restrict their access to freedom of thought, will restrict their access to self determination … as per the quote …
How does the Clans obtain these empires .... the removal of economics (money), that with afflicts the IS Great Houses from expanding their military? .... However if this statement is made this means that people working in factories are no longer receiving a wage ... they are now slaves to the Clans Warrior Caste.
So is this what is being suggested?
Quote:
The clans ideas were changing, which is how they went to making kingdoms/empires.
In a changing Clan empire (circa 3150) where might makes right cannot we say that both the Falcons and the Wolves have become more like the Jaguars of the early invasion?
And how did this Clan treat its Non Warrior caste members … the word slaves comes to mind (TRO 3050 page 6) … so how can the people accept this … how can they accept the idea of Castes … how can they accept the idea of fostering …. How can they accept a complete loss to their personal liberty and freedoms that they once had under their former House Government?
And yet the real question should be how can TPTB allow such an entity with our game – how can the hold up such an organization as a great power to be admired by those who play the game … these groups are the enemy and they should be treated as such!
Sorry but again this premise does not in any way hold water – it cannot (again in my opinion) be considered realistic!
I ( Me and my personal view only) cannot and will not accept this false premise as propagated.
Quote:
but they did state the SL clans refused to give out the clan tech.
Politically … would any member of the new SLDF accept this from a new member when they are at war with the same society they have decided to defect from?
Again …. I ( Me and my personal view only) cannot and will not accept this premise as propagated.
Quote:
the implication is the range and power of the clan weapons kept numbers from being used effectively.
Charge of the Light Brigade comes to mind here at Balaclava … didn’t work then, and will not work in the future when you have hundreds of vehicles advancing at flank speed upon a small group of Clan Omnis and elementals (and even if they did have air support at the same time). Yes the IS forces would have been badly damaged but the Clan forces would be dead – there is no way the clans could sustain a war of attrition – the IS on the other hand could!
Quote:
The lack of jumpships
Again the Clan Invasion is only about one quarter to one half the size of the Fourth Succession War – so how can there be a lack of Jump-Ships?
Quote:
hitting worlds they knew the clans were on as a dangerous situation.
And when is anything not a “dangerous situation” in any war?
Again where is the idea of “Calculated risk”, the way the Clan Invasion is written is from the point of view of a Leadership too scared of their own shadows to effectively get anything done … pitiful writing – pitiful direction … put Katherine in charge!
Again Have at look at the risks taken by every side in WW2 to win the war – in comparison the conduct of war between the shows a complete lack of understanding of waging war ….
Quote:
They knew when jumpships and non capital weapon carrying dropships met with a warship, surrender or dying was the only real outcome.
The clans have used a warship now twice on IS planets …
The above statement states that if you send a relief force and it is met by a warship it will be destroyed …
And yet the state will not allow for big wing aerospace fighter attack groups (armed with nukes) from each IS Navy’s own fleet of support fighters / 'Mech support fighters and they cannot be allowed to be used them to protect these relief force fleets …. because it is just "too dangerous"! ….
Where is your duty of care to your forces … show me any convoy in any modern war that did not have a screening force to protect it ….
Again we see a situation that no Navy commander would ever contemplate!
Quote:
Even the large wings would only work if you were far enough from the warship that they didn't wipe you out before you could launch them.
Really … again look at the rules … large Naval Weapons CANNOT target aerospace fighters – only Drop-Ship and above!
So that leaves the Clans own aerospace fighters as well as their AA batteries to stop any IS fighter attack …. and all I need is one hit by one Nuclear missile (as the rules, as given, to what a nuclear explosion is it suggests it is little more than a HE explosive and not a nuclear explosion) would kill any Warship class … and yet we can’t have that in the game!
Quote:
… the whole concept of holding back the entire clans to hit with 4 initially? If that isn't nerfing them, then what would be?
Clan Tradition – Batchall
Clan Tradition – Ratial superiority
Very bad Beta testing also comes to mind …rushing the game into production before anything could really be thought out!
I would also like to ask the IS unit numbers as supplied in the 20 year update … and then further down in history how many units does the IS have? If this isn’t ‘nerfing’ the IS then what would it be?
Quote:
The deep realms with Victor and Omi wouldn't happen in a real situation.
We are the dreamers and we can make the dreams a reality ….
Quote:
Victor or someone involved in taking down Katherine would have killed her to avoid her getting her power back. Phelan would have done so, if no one else.
Here I disagree … Katherine 'IS THE BEST' leader for the FC during this time period. Victor is military, he is not and has never been a politician who can spin webs within webs to ensnare her enemies … as a leader Victor is about as useful as a wet paper bag when he is outside his ‘Mech’s cockpit and not directing military forces.
Katherine on the other-hand is a politician she can direct the realm forward, she can utilize her spy agencies to the best possible outcome, she would allow kidnapping of Clan non warrior caste members, she would have provided her Huntress forces with a ‘shopping list’ to bring home (including people) – she is highly intelligent, sneaky and devious and un-remorseful – everything you want in an IS leader circa 3050.
The FC would have been far better off if rather than killing off her mother (which made no sense whatsoever) she killed off her brother Victor (and makes sense) – either physically or politically so that he could not inherit the throne. As for her remaining siblings – ever one of them fell very far from the tree – they were all worthless rulers, only Katherine showed the true Steiner / Davion ability.
As for Phelan - Katherine would order the Kell Hounds (His Father) plus others to drag him to hell if he attempted anything. So what would the Kell Hounds do, remain loyal or go rogue?
This would make for a great story!
Quote:
There is no way Vlad would have even gotten to them to take Katherine.
Agree … in all reality if a Falcon Vs. Wolf war did ensure Katherine would have invaded at the end … declared a trial of absorption … and made both Clan’s Touman into part of the FC military … Vlad would have become her bondsman or dead … either way it would work for her.
Quote:
And fighting in the deep periphery would be foolish.
Really? … Show me a war where one side or the other doesn’t send forces out to destroy the other’s supply lines!
Quote:
A full strike on the clans home worlds would be done.
Yes … but it should have taken a century of continual war – the final invasion should have been in 3150.
Quote:
The slow building and fighting over areas is stupid in this case. It isn't like the IS had many uses for those worlds at this time, as it was all about their borders in the IS.
No … ask the question when the new Star League is formed what is the remit they gave the SLDF? What is the SLDF’s original political / military exit strategy with the Clans? …. Politically it is the removal of all (except when some defect) Clans from every IS world, it is making every IS person free from the Clan’s Tyrannical rule by imposing their Caste System on these people (effectively making them slaves).
Quote:
Wasting time, money, and troops here would be pointless.
Hardly …. Then why have wolf packs in both WW1 and WW2 – why have air-forces bombing industries and cities in WW1 and WW2 – why send supply ships full of armaments and food to both England and Russia in WW1 and WW2?
What about the idea of Army Logistician (Supply Line Warfare)?
Also how much fun would this scenario be for the game? How many gaming groups would jump at the chance of playing a game in the deep periphery against the Clans – hunting down supply bases – taking on Clan convoys – attacking Clan Warships with fighters / any other strategy available (such as the BlackStar in Babylon 5) – capturing the clans major resupply space station – I would also like to ask why would you provide all this information about all these Clan's periphery sites if you don’t want it fought over in the future – why create an area of space if you don’t want to send troops out there to fight over it?
Quote:
but I do see why they can't have the armies of the IS running around with clan tech. It destroys the actual game play.
Question … when everyone was fighting in the era’s before the clans invasion (4th Succession War / war of 3039 etc.) and when everyone had a similar military technology base, did it destroy the actual game play or was the era more fun to play in than it is now where the Clans / IS have two vastly different technologies that has remained in place for 100 years?
How many plays prefer to play in this era (4th SW / war of 3039), rather than that of any other era?
Quote:
Mercs would only acquire it on the battle fields. They would NOT be able to buy it.
Initially yes, this would be the case, as House units would be purchasing everything first. However over time this would change to a no – they will be able to purchase when the technology has become more prevalent throughout the IS.
It is like countries today … first the super power makes it for their military only … then over time, as new models are being made the older models are being sold to countries aligned to that super power. Same here, first House units … then over time mercenaries aligned to a House … and last of all mercenaries who have no alignment to a House.
Quote:
The CC getting the SL tech from the MAC is a prime example why they would not be able to buy it.
No … CC (if they exist in your game – mine they are dead and buried during the early years of the Clan Invasion) getting SL / Clan tech would come through being members of the Star League and the SLDF – if they gave it to MAC (also dead and buried) that is their leader’s decision.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (01/23/20 10:11 PM)
|
ghostrider
01/24/20 03:25 AM
66.74.60.165
|
As pointed out before. Having everything in writing, means there could be no deviation from it. So you could not come in an take out a trinary of clan mechs, as it was not written that way in the story. Without the word for word history of how things go, it gives the players a chance to do something. Part of your defense for the alt. Now you want an iron clad story telling you everything that happens.
I do agree with the point of the lack of casualty reports on the invading clans. You know they lost troops, but how many does make a difference in further combats.
I see where part of the misinformation comes from the idea that the units would speed directly into the jaws of the clans. They didn't do this fighting the IS forces during the succession wars, unless they had no choice. Fighting the clans was a complete unknow. They would have fought them how they knew to fight other houses. LRMs in the back, though finding out the hard way that the clans outranged them. Things like the Demolisher would run at them as quick as they can, using what cover is available. As each battle is different, I can only summarize this. The clans had the power to take out a lot of units before they got within IS weapons range. And if using recovered SL weapons, like the pulse lasers, it was even worse then normal. But again. It seems like the clans have full cloaking devices or transporters that allow them to pop out of thin air.
One more point. Having a regiment or 5 on a world doesn't mean even a battalion is together in a fight. The bs of saying they all sit in one base is just that. Bs.
Calculated Risk... I guess the calculations for the counter assault was so horrible, they decided to save their equipment and not go. Or do you mean no matter the risk, you have to go? It is sounding a lot like that.
Funny that NOW you are worried about your troops getting slaughtered. In the past, it was suggested they needed to strike out at the enemy, even though they couldn't do much but provide target practice for the enemy. And the use of a warship was the commanders decision, not the whole high command. The second 'use' was a ploy to get the world to surrender. Obviously the Falcon command didn't like that use, as they didn't try it again.
You missed the point with
Even the large wings would only work if you were far enough from the warship that they didn't wipe you out before you could launch them.
Really … again look at the rules … large Naval Weapons CANNOT target aerospace fighters – only Drop-Ship and above!
Where it says wipe you out before you can launch them. That means getting the fighters out of the dropship before it blows up. Not sure how that was missed. Even fighters that are ready still die when the dropship blows up from combat damage. How many can you launch if you are within weapons range after a jump?
|
ghostrider
01/24/20 03:48 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The leader that will destroy entire units because they didn't salute good enough is the better ruler?
And not sure how Katherine could command the Kell Hounds to take out Phelan when she is dead. Simple pull the pistol from the holster and done. Even just taking her into custody and having a weapons malfunction would be more likely the leaving her alive. Phelan's mother was killed, and his father maimed from a bomb she used to remove a potential rival. He stated to Victor that had he thought Victor was the one to send the assassin, he would have killed him. He might be clan now, but born and raised in the IS. And that isn't including others that suffered from her manic actions.
There is a difference between fighting battles from chance encounters to building a new realm in the deep periphery. Only things that might be done is ammo dumps and such. Not a full scale city with factories and such. You get to the clan home worlds and fight, or they hit you in the IS. This succession war style fight to get to either side is garbage.
Not sure why you think a full strike on the clan home worlds would last a century. There is not second chance here. You do or die. Maybe hunting down those that ran, but it isn't likely there would be many. Dying is preferred over losing to the IS.
As stated in another thread. Clan tech causes fights to end quickly. A lot of time, tactics aren't as useful like they are with low tech. One mistake and you die. Hell, even a bad(good) roll could do that before you even get close in. It is fun to do so once in a while, but for the entire cosmos to become something that you have to hide until you are ready to kick a unit isn't going to happen. The spamming of pulse/TC or streak packs would be all that people would play. As said. It is fun once or twice, but gets old quickly.
The example of the MAC supplying the CC with advanced tech was not about the alt. It was used to show why the tech would not be sold to mercs. It would definitely be a major boost to their bank accounts to buy it, and sell it to the enemy, which might well be your employer tomarrow. Tens of millions of c-bills for getting them the tech. Yeah. More then a few mercs would do it. Not all, but enough to make sure it would stay in house hands.
|
Requiem
01/24/20 08:02 AM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
Having everything in writing, means there could be no deviation from it.
So the back-story cannot ever change no matter what?
So what is the point of even playing the game if you can never ever affect the IS history – might as well never play a game if it is all predestined to go the way of the Canon History. And this is the real problem …. there is no flexibility whatsoever with many of the players – why even have books like “The Galtor Campaign” if it can only have one outcome?
Boring …… this is why the alt. must exist so that your group can rise up and effect the history, be the pebble that starts the avalanche … create your own destiny within your own IS ….excitement and fun!
Quote:
Now you want an iron clad story telling you everything that happens.
No …. Just a believable story would be appreciated ….
Quote:
I do agree with the point of the lack of casualty reports on the invading clans. You know they lost troops, but how many does make a difference in further combats.
Yes a very big difference …
Quote:
They didn't do this fighting the IS forces during the succession wars, unless they had no choice.
… and do they have a choice with the clans, given their “incredible” fighting ability? And the stories of the Clans creating slaves of their captured people / concentration camps / what was written about them within the 1st Sommerset Strikers Book / TRO 3050 page 6 …
So no … there is no real choice … war to the death of one or the other!
Quote:
Fighting the clans was a complete unknown. They would have fought them how they knew to fight other houses.
For the first battle … yes …. From the second battle no … this is why you have after action reports from all surviving people / gun camera images … it is also why you have intelligence unit within the military.
And this is why, when you capture a clansman, they are interrogated – refer 1st Sommerset Strikers when the captured a Jade Falcon Warrior as an example …
So, over time the complete unknown becomes the known ….
Quote:
LRMs in the back, though finding out the hard way that the clans outranged them.
Clan LRM – Max. Range 21
Savannah Master – Flank MP: 20
Harasser – Flank MP: 15
J Edgar – Flank MP: 17
Pegasus – Flank MP: 12
Saladin – Flank MP: 12 (AC 20)
Saracen – Flank MP: 12
Goblin – Flank MP: 6
Mechbuster – Max thrust: 8
Bulldog – Flank MP: 6
Demolisher – Flank MP: 5
Schrek PPC Carrier – Flank MP: 5
Range only becomes an issue with regards to heavy / assault tracked – hover on mass, for example the Saracen with Mechbuster support how long do you think a trinary will last?
Quote:
But again. It seems like the clans have full cloaking devices or transporters that allow them to pop out of thin air.
How droll …. But in reality they just fly in (refer anime Knight’s and Magic).
Quote:
One more point. Having a regiment or 5 on a world doesn't mean even a battalion is together in a fight. The bs of saying they all sit in one base is just that. Bs.
Isn’t this dependent upon ‘whomever’ the Commanding Officer is as well as the orders they have received from HQ based upon the overall battle plan?
So saying they are not all together could be correct or it might not be – they could be in divisions, regiments or companies depending upon the overarching strategy designed by HQ.
Quote:
Calculated Risk
Definition: A chance that is taken after careful estimation of the possible outcomes – when the possible gain is worth more than what will be lost if the action fails. The expression dates back to World War 1. Military leaders would estimate the chance that a military action would have of failure. Then, they would weigh it against the possible rewards if the mission were successful.
Quote:
it was suggested they needed to strike out at the enemy, even though they couldn't do much but provide target practice for the enemy.
An opinion I do not share.
Quote:
warships
Again, how did the leaders of the IS understand what the clans hierarchy were trying to say when they obliterated an entire civilian city and then threatened to do it again with a warship by two different Clans in to different sectors?
What were the IS rulers to think when this occurred?
Do we need the hunting dog and Ouija board again to understand the Clans intentions?
So what is a ruler to do? How do they protect their people from the biggest gun in the war?
Go into a meditative trance and just wish it away?
Quote:
Where it says wipe you out before you can launch them. That means getting the fighters out of the dropship before it blows up.
You do realize this is just semantics (again!) …. and cannot be guaranteed to happen 100% of the time!
How many can you launch if you are outside weapons range after a jump … or how about you jumped in before the warship jumped in and are ‘lying doggo’ until the excitement starts? How about all of them….
Quote:
The leader that will destroy entire units because they didn't salute good enough is the better ruler?
Really? …. This is a very low opinion of Katherine
Her image was extremely well presented / crafted to both the Lyrans and the Suns – she was beloved by both relams, until she took the Lyran half away …so what if this never occurred …
Quote:
Phelan's mother was killed, and his father maimed from a bomb she used to remove a potential rival.
and as stated above – what if she doesn’t kill her mother so Phelan’s mother is alive and his father is unhurt (as in all reality her mother is not an impediment to her eventual rule of the FC only Victor is) - so she sends her assassin to kill Victor whilst at the same time she creates a story within the media that will make it impossible for him to take the throne (she proves that Victor has sired a child with Omika!). There goes the Draconis March, maybe even the Capellan Mach as well as Skye, as well as many Lords within both great states will go nuts over this … there will be no coming back from this, Katherine will be the next ruler of the FC … and Victor will be consigned to playing Mech Warrior (if the assassin fails) … and that will not be the last one Omika’s father / the Black Dragon Society will send assassins his way as well.
PS. Phellan’s father is a peer of the realm – as such she can order him to war as one of her Lords – if he refuses it is automatically treason – and we all know the penalty for that!
Quote:
And that isn't including others that suffered from her manic actions.
How many could prove this? Even Victor’s Cannon team were only just able to prove it … though it is extenuating evidence there is no smoking gun ever found that positively links her to her mother’s death within the canon history. So again it is extremely hard to believe anyone will be able to prove her bloody- iron-claws, wrapped in velvet, are ever to be blamed for individuals problems. She is just way too good as a politician ….
Quote:
There is a difference between fighting battles from chance encounters to building a new realm in the deep periphery
Correct, but when you have a hundred years to build your realm it really is not that difficult.
Quote:
Not sure why you think a full strike on the clan home worlds would last a century.
Please re-read again … it would take a century for the IS to battle the Clans from the IS into the deep periphery and from there all the way back to the Clan Home Worlds ….
Then in One centuries time D-Day into the Clan Home worlds as the IS begins its invasion with whatever Clans are remaining at the end.
Quote:
As stated in another thread. Clan tech causes fights to end quickly.
So what? … just create a new armor so that it doesn’t, how hard is that to fix?
Quote:
The example of the MAC supplying the CC with advanced tech was not about the alt. It was used to show why the tech would not be sold to mercs. It would definitely be a major boost to their bank accounts to buy it, and sell it to the enemy, which might well be your employer tomorrow. Tens of millions of c-bills for getting them the tech. Yeah. More then a few mercs would do it. Not all, but enough to make sure it would stay in house hands.
What each House Lord does with their own advanced weapons is their business.
Mercenaries can thus steel if if they want or they may be even offered it by a House Lord to retain their services or they could go into Clan space and get it from them.
There are other ways of getting your Merc unit advanced weapons.
It could even have come standard with that new ‘Mech you purchased from the factory store …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
01/24/20 01:31 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Having everything written down, means the main story can not be changed, though if you want to keep to canon, some things can not be changed. You can not take out Sun Tzu in a raid. You can not kill Victor in a mech fight. Now if you want to get away from canon, then you can do like you wanted to in the alt. The issue with that is saying it is the only way the game should have gone. It isn't.
Now there is the problem. After battle reports weren't getting to the high command. Most units were destroyed during the first few battles. As written in a few place, the high commands of both the LC and DC didn't know what was really going on, much less information on how they fight. Even video footage of the units was scarce for a while. So no. They could not have been doing much in counter tactics until they got a better view of what was going on. And remember. Hanse said he did not realize the DC was hit so hard. So the instant full intel isn't there for known rivals, why would a brand new entry have anything close to that? It was the Dragoon meeting that gave them the best information, though some were already learning how to fight them. Victor's rescue was a major turning point, but not the only one.
Context seems to be an issue here. LRM carrier in the back is for the IS units to set up for combat. They didn't have access to the clans AC2, ERLL, ERPPC, and Gauss Rifles weren't really used for vehicles. The Alacorn being the main exception. So range did have a major effect against those that did not understand they were not safe. The speeds of the hovers would allow them to get in close, but it wouldn't stop them from being hit. Given the terrain restrictions to vehicles, I don't see anything but a mainly open flat terrain allowing them to rush a full regiment into even a single map sheet. 2 allied vehicles per hex max tends to do that.
So playing within the rules, is where issues really start forming.
Most orders is to guard the world. That didn't change much even with the clans coming in. You could win one battle and still lose the world if you neglected the other locations. And fighting in the capital would be foolish in the least. Depending on the world itself, multiple RCTs wouldn't cut it.
So having 10000 mechs might well allow 1000 mechs to slowly destroy your units as they don't have to really garrison the land. So facing 500 of your units with the 1000 comes to mind. Granted the clans didn't normally attack that way.
What is the definition of Calculated Risk have to do with the fact that it was decided the risk of hitting the enemy was greater then any reward could have been? The entire succession wars was fought with the idea of diversion being a very potent weapon. Draw out the defenders, then hit the areas they just came from with a second force. Without knowing better, how would you know the clans didn't do this? Don't try the Meeting excuse here. The IS did much better after that. This is before that meeting.
The actions of a single commander, which they didn't use the ship before or afterwards says someone wasn't following orders. As they could have just taken out bases from orbit and didn't, it was thought that the clans were not using those ships for ground combat. As they were not used to subdue worlds with just being there, it says those events were not standard at all. The removal of the Saber Cat says a lot about the one time use of it. But with that, why didn't world surrender when the warships showed up in their system? You know what they did, and you would worry they would do it to you if you resisted. As you said. The IS didn't know it wasn't going to be used over and over again.
Yet to assume Katherine didn't order units to take out their own would be missing how she operated. I would bet she did order Morgan to kill Phelan more then once. And the fact he sided with Victor already meant treason against her. But then she took the throne from him, and used forced to make sure he wouldn't get it back. If she was a real leader, she would have given him the throne then blackmailed him into doing things her way, and allowing him to take the blame for bad ideas. But being narcisistic, she had to be the one in front of the cameras. To prevent her people from dying in a civil war would be a great way to gain power, and make Victor her puppet. But then, that would mean having to look past the 'perfect' solution that was already in place in the alt.
And you are wrong that there was no smoking gun to link Katherine to the assassination. They caught the assassin and got the information from him. They couldn't use it in the public's eye, as they didn't kill or even try the assassin. They used the assassin later on.
Again. Why waste resources you need to rebuild back home on an area few, if any, want to be in? Only those fleeing from the government would think a lack of any services was a good thing. Except for military outposts, there would not be a big push for anything outside of a pair of jumps from the border. So no. A deep periphery realm would not be the case.
Might was well do what a lot of games do. Just add some zeros to the damage and armor protection, so doing 1000 SDC yet not affecting 1 MDC armor comes about. Might was well play those games that you can do 1 million points of damage on a unit that has 200 million armor.
Not saying things shouldn't evolve, but the lack of armor advances shows that wasn't in the picture. The ferrous armor and even modular armor doesn't really solve much. The limits of what can be placed on the actual mech, is the issue. Ferrous armor in lighter then normal armor, as it provides more damage resistance then normal armor. Yet, you can not put more armor points on a location with it? Why does this sound odd? Hardened armor is the only real way to gain more protection, yet it is limited as well.
Vehicles don't have a max armor per location. Yet another reason why vehicles have to be nerfed to allow mech to be the kings on the field.
A house could very well have a few different companies doing business around the IS to acquire supplies. Mercs tend to be more likely to use those companies or even go thru black market dealers. Criminals may well deal with the merc long before they deal with another house. I do think some of the 'permanent' mercs might get a deal to buy the new tech, but for the most part, it would not be available, if you are really concerned about it getting to an enemy.
The strike on the clans homeworlds would only bog down after the IS showed up and started destroying their forces. There would be no reason, other then maybe a traitor informing them, the IS was on it's way. And with the initial attack, the IS would have local superiority, and maybe even gaining the factories the clans use to keep in new units and supplies. Losing them would put the clans in a very bad situation. From the sounds of it, they don't have factories across clan space, but focused on specific worlds. They 'buy' from those manufacturers, but this may be inaccurate. Each world or even clan on the world, might have their own facilities.
|
Requiem
01/24/20 05:53 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
…the main story can not be changed ….you can not take out Sun Tzu in a raid. You can not kill Victor in a mech fight …if you want to get away from canon, then you can do like you wanted to in the alt …. The issue with that is saying it is the only way the game should have gone. It isn't..
And here I thought I kept on saying that people should have the freedom to make up their own minds as to what they wanted in a game!
Quote:
Now there is the problem. After battle reports weren't getting to the high command.
Really? …. Then when did information become available?... Dragoons Conference, or before that? ….
As stated previously first wave … no real info., however from there on out information came trickling in until a complete picture was formed … and then we get Wolcott (October 3050) where the future Coordinator Hohiro Kurita won against the Jaguars, and how did he win? … he used their own bidding practices against them … and how did he get this information about their bidding practices, and about the fighting style, and about their sensors ….
So How did he know how to …
Lie about the quality of troops on the planet – stating they were green troops – rather they were the elite Genyosha Regiments;
He took the terrain advantage of fighting in the planet’s wooded marshes;
He baffled their sensors by putting chaff strips upon the trees in the wooden marshes;
The only way he could come up with this is if he had information from previous battles to draw upon to set his trap.
I would also like to ask why the lessons learnt upon Wolcott were never adhered to from then on?
Someone favoring their pet Clans again?
So no, the information was there!
Quote:
They didn't have access to the clans AC2, ERLL, ERPPC, and Gauss Rifles weren't really used for vehicles. The Alacorn being the main exception. So range did have a major effect against those that did not understand they were not safe.
Context problem - Even with these weapons – if a cavalry charge is called for how many turns will it take for a saladin battalion / regiment to close the gap to short and then surround the Clan Mechs (and into their rear) with mass numbers and kill them off with mass AC20 rounds? So yes, they would get hit but the speed of hovers would allow how many to get into their rear? Start with Trinary (15) Vs reinforced Battalion (52) – remember to choose a terrain that limits the range of the Clans weapons – add in sensor baffling chaff strips / smoke rounds and also allow the IS to have access to artillery for the first couple of rounds as they close in for the kill, plus conventional fighters / bombers / VTOL craft in support – there could also be infantry in there as well (Jump commando + SRM Infero) – depending on if this was a trap or just a target of opportunity.
Win / Loss – when one side or the other is completely destroyed.
Quote:
Most orders is to guard the world.
Yes, but how they do that is up the commander on the ground. (Read Sun Tzu the art of war)
Quote:
What is the definition of Calculated Risk have to do with the fact that it was decided the risk of hitting the enemy was greater then any reward could have been?
Again semantics …. your opinion …. Mine are vastly different – timidity in the face of the enemy will not be tolerated (Anzio Beach January 22, 1944)
Quote:
As you said. The IS didn't know it (warships) wasn't going to be used over and over again.
Correct – so what do you do next? – hold hands and sing Kumbaya – or do you actually put in place a plan to deal with them, as has any military allowed the enemy such free reign with a weapon of such size, scope and tactical advantage?
Quote:
Katherine
The only time she ordered her own units to take out renegade units was during the Civil War – so if there wasn’t a civil war this point becomes moot!
Yes she would order Morgan to bring to heal / kill Phelan if he posed (engaged in combat against FC military) a threat to the Federated Commonwealth – and it would be Morgan’s duty to follow it through! In attacking a FC force Phellan has chosen his side and has gone rogue …
PS – your confusing Canon history with the assumptions I put in place above – so, again – Katherine didn’t kill her mother – Phelan’s Mother and Father are unhurt – Katherine attacked Victor, usurped his throne by proving he was not worthy of holding it (and in such a way that her finger prints are not on the murder weapon)
Also Victor’s personality would never allow him to be a puppet – plus in the high stakes game of the IS nobility, is the same as that of the Italian era of the Borgias (Renaissance) – better to just kill him off!
Quote:
They caught the assassin and got the information from him.
Really? How many assassins would know who their employer are? … air gapped once more …Ryan Steiner hired him ….
Quote:
A deep periphery realm would not be the case.
The California gold rush .. the Black Hills Gold Rush .. The Australian Gold Rush … The Canadian Gold Rush ...
Money and the prospect of a better life will always drive people to establish new colonies. Or why else did the people of Terra ever leave and form the IS?
Quote:
damage and armor protection
Again we are the engineers and we can establish new materials in the game – just include a rounding up factor to all armor upon every vehicle and just leave the damage on the weapons as is. Problem solved.
Quote:
The strike on the clans home-worlds would only bog down after the IS showed up and started destroying their forces.
And yet no-one knows what forces could be on the Clan Home Worlds or the state of the Clan Home Worlds 100 years into the future.
So this is just personal opinion.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
01/24/20 11:58 PM
66.74.60.165
|
And here I thought I kept on saying that people should have the freedom to make up their own minds as to what they wanted in a game!
The stop saying canon is wrong and get completely away from it. The discussions always come down to suggesting an alternative, but always seem to come to my view is the only correct one. This isn't suggesting something different. This is demanding a game change to fit your needs and print it all out for everyone to play.
The solid facts, besides units were being lost, were mostly after the Dragoons meeting. They started putting together hunches with the little facts they had. That is part of how you do things in a real tactics game. You don't exactly know what the enemy has. If you think otherwise, then don't bother playing. Just roll a die and anything over zero means you win. There are a few that will suggest that is the reason for BV. But that isn't so much anything but a deathmatch style fight. A real campaign has unknowns, just like real life does. But then having everything written down, then suggesting the game doesn't allow you flexibility puts the argument in context. This is just to argue.
For the first battle … yes …. From the second battle no
As stated previously first wave
Ok. Where in the initial statement did it say first wave, cuz it shows first battle. A huge difference in time. It explains why a lot of the discussion is based on wrong information.
Context problems? I have yet to see many units have exactly what then need going into battle. A battalion of Saladins isn't likely to happen, and even then, the terrain would have to be open. Things like woods stops hovers dead. You can still shoot thru them, and then the stacking rule stops others. Hills will do the same thing. Now if you did have the units and open terrain, then yes. It would be easier. But there is also the issue of firing at objects. Even point blank range doesn't mean you are garenteed a hit.
|
ghostrider
01/25/20 12:21 AM
66.74.60.165
|
You have to know the attack was coming to even suggest pulling all your forces from around the world, and believing the enemy isn't going to drop somewhere else. IS history here. But again. Knowing the end result then trying to change the situation to avoid the results in the first place. How is the next battle in the U.K going to begin and end?
Wait. There is information to even suggest that. Yet you continue to make it sound like they knew the future. They didn't.
Do you not understand that a calculated risk could well prevent someone from doing something? Not only doing it but the end results if you fail need to be figured out. Much like using explosive fireworks, and thinking holding them until they launch and explode is a good risk. Any smart person would think about it and let it take off from the ground. It works both ways.
If I waste all my units and fail, then the thing I am protecting will be taken. More then not, those actions end up failing then succeeding.
I don't have a written answer to that, but it is very likely they were setting something up to deal with them. Time and resources being an issue. But then playing the instant units and unlimited resources tends to make you forget things like NOT HAVING the stuff right there. Or maybe having everything under the sun and alls you have to do is tell the enemy 'hold on a sec. I need to change out my units.' Doesn't work in reality.
Wow. Katherine never ordered an assassination against those that told her no? So her killing her mother was a mother's day present? Or sending teams against others in the FC to remove the thorns from her sides?
It seems this one knew it was Katherine, and I don't know how. Might be the security clearance he got would only come from Victor or Katherine, and as the payment was made by Katherine, well supposition was used. Victor knew he didn't order it, so who else?
Again. Saying canon is wrong then swapping back to alt when your argument is shut down.
You want the alt, fine. Leave it just the alt. Don't even try to say canon is wrong as the alt is the only way it has to be. It doesn't. There is no presentation in any of this.
I suppose you would argue that Star Wars, the original, was flawed as the developer purposefully made the exhaust port weakness to be exploited in the future, when the Rebel Alliance got ahold of the data. Only in Rogue One did we find this out. Someone should have seen that issue. But it is what the writer wanted.
|
Requiem
01/25/20 04:58 AM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
They started putting together hunches with the little facts they had.
Please explain how the future Coordinator Hohiro Kurita’s ‘hunches’ were so accurate when dealing with the Jaguars upon Wolcott?
The conference on Outreach was held during the lull in the invasion in 3051.
So that rules out the Dragoons assisting the DCMS.
Thus wouldn’t the accuracy of his ‘hunches’ be based upon the only other logical source of information - intelligence reports supplied by his military intelligence unit?
And if it wasn’t from them then who else supplied the information upon which he based his strategy against the Jaguars? His spies – so this would mean they ‘acquired’ Clan personnel – and was he then supplied with their interrogation reports?
Quote:
Context problems?
Whether the information is received from 1st battle or the 2nd battle is both immaterial and pedantic – what is important is the information itself.
If a battalion of Saladins isn’t likely to happen then what is?
So does this mean that if I went out and bought a battalion of Saladins I won’t get them?
As for terrain there are other boards other than woods … plus the prohibited Unit on the Movement Cost Table really needs to be rethought (Battle of the Bulge coming through the Black Forest for the second time comes to mind) plus why can’t your infantry create dedicated tracks that allow all vehicle types through woods – they could have been established years in advance of the Clan invasion as a defensive measure against your rival House and are known only to the defenders. Sorry to say but the game’s “absolutes” are not so “absolute” as first thought!
Case in point as to why the Movement Cost Table really needs to be rethought – WiGE craft and Light woods – can I laugh now at this? As the water would need to be above the trees for this to work!.
Quote:
But there is also the issue of firing at objects. Even point blank range doesn't mean you are guaranteed a hit.
…. And it doesn’t mean a guaranteed a miss.
Quote:
You have to know the attack was coming to even suggest pulling all your forces from around the world, and believing the enemy isn't going to drop
Really? …. After the first one / two waves isn’t it a little predicable that they (The Clans) are moving in a straight line?
Also isn’t it at the discretion of the Military Commander on world as to how / and where the military is assigned?
Quote:
Do you not understand that a calculated risk could well prevent someone from doing something?
Yes … this is true. But remember - the opposite is also true at the same time. If I use my units and they succeed then what?
Quote:
Katherine never ordered an assassination against those that told her no?
A good leader would order assassinations (when warranted) … However, go back and re-read the books she was in, she used economics to force her Lords into submission by restricting / halting / or delaying Jump-Ship supply shipments for those worlds that relied on them. Once you understand who holds the whip the more likely they are to be compliant in the future.
Quote:
So her killing her mother was a mother's day present?
And for the third time, what if she didn’t kill her mother? What if she removed Victor and took the throne?
Why did Katherine need to Kill her mother? – she was not and would never be an impediment to her taking the throne if Victor died in combat against the Clans! (with a little help from Katherine’s assassin or from the media who totally destroyed his credibility with the Dukes of the FC – either would work for her!)
Remember the “Order of Succession” when it comes to the throne and who is next in line to become the ruler! HER!
As for Victor, he is totally unsuitable for being the ruler of an IS Realm – He makes for a good soldier and general, but other than that he is completely useless. Like many of the Leaders of the past he is too preoccupied with playing with his ‘Mechs than making his realm a better and more safer place to live for his people.
Katherine however understood the need of improving the state and the common people’s lives – as Napoleon once wrote, “It is with such baubles that I will rule them!”
Plus she was far more devious and would pose to be a far more dangerous rival for all the other IS Houses.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
01/25/20 01:13 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Maybe the fact Hohiro was captured by the clans and talked with prisoners and possibly even guards to find out a few things? The fact he was in battle with them and was one of a small few that did get away to fight another day? Or maybe the easier reason. It is in the script. Anyone other then Hohiro would not have been taken seriously. Main characters have to come up with the saves, much like Star Trek and captain Kirk coming up with plans that Scotty couldn't figure out, even though Scotty was the main engineer of the ship.
Also, Theodore was the one to come up with the Wolcott plan.
It is very important to know when something was figured out. The initial attack had everyone wondering just who was doing this. Fighting them was far worse as not only the weapons were superior but the tactics were something the IS hadn't dealt with. The waves gave a little more time to actually get something going. A battle doesn't do much, especially when the defenders were basically wiped out, or couldn't get offworld to report in. That includes no access to the HPG network. No planned redevous with hidden assets.
Tracked vehicles can move thru light woods. Hovers can't. And tracks, or paths in woods is possible. They are considered roads.
You can buy a batt of Saladins, but it isn't likely at all they would be where they need to be.
And now suggesting they knew where battles would be, and had roads and such planned out decades in advance of the clan invasion. And the enemy seeing that set up, would still give you that advantage? Even with their ego, they want to kill you without taking damage, as that is also a sign that the enemy was better then you thought. Vlad being hit by Phelan in their initial contact comes to mind.
Which is stretching the game rules. Have a weapon to cover all arcs, but couldn't fire straight ahead of it? Really?
Military commanders have certain things they are require to follow. You have control over most things, but when a war hits, and you pull forces from cities, then those cities get hit because you did, win or lose, you will probably be courtmartialled. You still refuse to believe the IS ways of fighting prevents you from combining before you know where the enemy is committing their attack. And with the clans, you normally found out about the attack when they sent a challenge, IF they sent the challenge. You can not send a unit across thousands of mile when it only move 80 kph. And you don't have the transport to move an RCT into position in an hour or two notice.
The economics was used more often, but she did order people killed. And if you really think about it, delaying a shipment of medicine could very well kill people. Same with food. Could not will. And alls because the local leader said they weren't going to swear fealty to her. Victor was still in charge, with Katherine being the reagent until he got back. The fact she didn't relinquish it shows she was moving to become the dictator.
Do you realize you answered the question of why Katherine had to kill her mother? Melissa was still the first in line. Victor was second. And Melissa would NOT allow Katherine to seize the throne. So her dreams of rulership would never come about.
|
Requiem
01/25/20 06:22 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
Theodore was the one to come up with the Wolcott plan.
Yes he was the one to come up with the plan …. So how did he do it?
Yes his son Hohiro did have battlefield experience with the Clans – and yes he would have talked about his experience with his father and Grand-Father. But this would not explain all of his actions upon Wolcott – so where did this information come from?
Quote:
Fighting them was far worse as not only the weapons were superior but the tactics were something the IS hadn't dealt with.
Improvise. Adapt. Overcome. – The US Marines are absolutely correct!
Quote:
Tracked vehicles can move thru light woods. Hovers can't. And tracks, or paths in woods is possible. They are considered roads.
Quote:
And now suggesting they knew where battles would be, and had roads and such planned out decades in advance of the clan invasion. And the enemy seeing that set up, would still give you that advantage? Even with their ego, they want to kill you without taking damage, as that is also a sign that the enemy was better then you thought.
Be prepared …
First, yes you can make an educated guess as to where the battle will be – read autobiographies;
Second, If the conifer camouflages the tracks would / could the clans even know they are there?
Third, Knowing where the trap is – that’s the first step in evading it!
Fourth, The Clan’s own ego can be made to work against them;
Fifth, The Clans are NOT better than you – by only having a limited military – this limited their ability whilst in the field and at the same time holding a world …
Sixth, TPTB still have not explained how a small number of Mechs and Infantry are expected to rule a world in the billions – Only a mass number of boots on the ground / police force can do this! - especially when partisan tactics can be used against them on a daily basis. And what happens when an entire world’s population decides to fight? … such as when they attempted to implement Fostering / the caste system as a means of improving the IS barbarians?
The game as written must explain this, silence is not an option!
By remaining silent it suggests that even TPTB do not understand what would happen next!
Quote:
You can buy a batt of Saladins, but it isn't likely at all they would be where they need to be.
Again … isn’t this at the discretion of the Commander on World!
Quote:
Vlad being hit by Phelan in their initial contact comes to mind.
First, didn’t Vlad cheat when he was attempting to earn his Blood-name? and if I remember correctly wasn’t this a fist fight as the elevator was raising them to the circle of equals?
Quote:
Military commanders have certain things they are require to follow. You have control over most things, but when a war hits, and you pull forces from cities, then those cities get hit because you did, win or lose, you will probably be courtmartialled.
The highest ranked officer on the battlefield will hold responsibility.
Second, it is a war crime to hit an open city.
Third, by removing his forces isn’t he attempting to fight the battle in an area that will cause the minimum amount of collateral damage to the planet?
Fourth, what is the key strategic points on the planet?
Fifth, what is the CO attempting to do – strategic maneuvering is not as simple as I must defend this, this and this! There could be a greater plan in place!
Quote:
You still refuse to believe the IS ways of fighting prevents you from combining before you know where the enemy is committing their attack.
Dividing your forces in the face of the enemy – General George A. Custer – 7th Cavalry Regiment – Battle of the Little Bighorn.
How did that work out?
Quote:
You can not send a unit across thousands of mile when it only move 80 kph.
How about transporting your forces via dropship?
You can ask to transfer the Battle to an isolated piece of land (that is also a massive trap).
I would also like to put in the following – the Clans were moving in a straight line and when the planets before you WERE ATTACKED you really did have a good idea that your planet could be next. So wouldn’t you start putting into place a pre-arranged plan from then onwards.
Also you have previous information as to the time between each individual attack wave / time it took for a Clan to conquer a world.
So yes you did have a good prediction as to when your planet could expect an invasion by each Clan.
Subtlety when it comes to each individual wave to wave / planet to planet can NOT be considered one of their strong points!
So rather than having an hour or two notice you shouldn’t you have a couple of months notice!
Or are you saying that an experienced General would only plan his/her defense once the enemy shows up – rather than implementing plans based upon the likelihood of being attacked – ie. There is a high likelihood of my planet being attacked by the Clans next – so, we will use plan Gamma (that was written up in advance and has been used to train the troops in advance) – so you then order them into position in advance of the coming attack – you also ensure your ground work is in place – traps such as pill boxes / minefields – surveillance equipment – putting your artillery in – medical MASH stations – Resupply / Rearmament / Field Repair Points have been put in place – evacuation points and routes have been established and all Drop-ships are in place – Let the civil population know of the possibility of an invasion – ensure the civilians have implemented their survival procedures – also ensure there has been established many armaments cashes for the civilians to continue on the fight (home guard goes partisan) in the event the regular forces must withdraw … as well as all the other plans are put in place …. Such as the evacuation of important people / technology / cultural artifacts etc.
Quote:
The economics was used more often, but she did order people killed.
Who and for what reason …. proof please ….
Quote:
delaying a shipment of medicine could very well kill people.
Not really, a delay is just that a delay … there is no proof people died, you just need to make the threat to get the point across.
Quote:
Victor was still in charge, with Katherine being the reagent until he got back. The fact she didn't relinquish it shows she was moving to become the dictator.
No, Yvonne was the Regent of the FS … she was Archon of the LA … so when Yvonne couldn’t cope she gave the regency and the FS to Katherine. If anyone is to be blamed it is Yvonne for being a pathetic leader.
As for not giving it back … Victor ABANDONED his throne to play Mech-warrior … once you assume the Throne you can no longer play General, you have a higher duty, you are thus required to relinquish your position with a military unit and take your place on the Throne on the Capitol World – directing your people, your economy and assigning the best people you have to run the war.
Case in point – did you see Hanse Davion jump in a Mech during the 4th Succession War or did you see him remaining on New Avalon together with his best and brightest people directing the war?
How many leaders throughout the IS’s history who run off to war within their ‘Mech end up dead and leave their realm worse off? Victor has a duty to his people and his realm – not only to make them more prosperous, but to increase healthcare / schooling etc, he has a duty to keep them safe, and this cannot be achieved in the Cockpit of a ‘Mech.
I would also like to add it is also his duty to find a wife and to ensure the line of succession continues (Children).
When Victor refused to give up his rank and his command of the 10th Lyran Guards and he ran off and played war this action proved he was an incompetent ruler.
Katherine was right to usurp him! His inattentiveness towards his realm showed he was incapable or ruling – incompetence is the charge I would level against him as a ruler.
Quote:
Do you realize you answered the question of why Katherine had to kill her mother? Melissa was still the first in line. Victor was second. And Melissa would NOT allow Katherine to seize the throne. So her dreams of ruler-ship would never come about.
And you do realize that Melissa offered to abdicate in Victor’s favor prior to this (and everyone within the family would have been informed of this so that they could discuss the consequences of such an act prior to making a decision), so this point becomes moot.
With the death of Victor (on the battlefield) would she (Melissa) not also offer to abdicate in favor of her eldest daughter also? (and if not then you kill her off!) Plus the image of the grieving family who also sacrificed their own on the Alter of War, the reluctant daughter and sister taking the Throne will play well to the media of the entire FC (Katherine’s favorite tactic) – thus ensuring a safe transition to her position as Ruler of the FC … the optics of this would be a sight to be seen!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (01/25/20 06:26 PM)
|
|
|
Extra information
|
2 registered and 82 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 135182
|
|
|
|
|
|
|