Requiem
07/04/18 10:26 PM
58.175.193.140
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Correct the boxes are unable to send video.
Errrr… your description of Katherine is that of a petty dictator only …
A ‘Duck’ is much worse …
Eugenics – race superiority – Secret police (purge the populations) – show trials – no civil liberties – the state comes first – detention / re-education / death camps – society becomes more stratified than it already is (breaks down completely) etc
Sorry I disagree clans are much more insidious / violent and uncaring of their citizens than that of Katherine – she lies yes but she didn’t rewrite / limit access their entire history so as to reflect their point of view … and then destroy peoples individual identity … etc
Remember this quote … he who burs books will soon be burning bodies …..
No defending the cannon history is giving in to poor writing that could have been so much more if they had just thought about what they writing about …. Thus the request for a rewrite and allow the gamers to choose Version 1 or Version 2 …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/17/18 06:55 AM
58.175.193.140
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PRESS RELEASE: November 13, 3042 - EXTRACT
… following on with our initial report, it has now been just over one year since the former Capellan Confederation capitulated to vastly superior forces and were subsequently integrated into the Federated Commonwealth.
We can now report that these new Federated Commonwealth citizens, within the newly named Leagues March, are experiencing a level of freedom they have never experienced before as their economy and their lifestyle is on the improve under the direction of their Duchess Nelitha Green-Davion, the former Minister of Federated Suns’ Administrative Services.
Duchess Nelitha Green-Davion has just now announced that the Federated Commonwealth in partnership with Federated-Boeing Interstellar, Bowie Industries and Ioto Galactic Enterprises have repaired the damaged (and newly re-named) Port Cassiopeia Naval Shipyards in orbit above Capella.
This shipyard, once owned by the then Star League Era Companies, Delhi Warships and Rashpur-Owens incorporated was severely damaged during the First Succession War, and was unable to be repaired under their former administrations.
However, they have now been returned to their former operational capabilities under the dedicated direction of the Federated Commonwealth’s Duchess Nelitha Green-Davion.
Sources within Green-Davion administration have confirmed that production of a Vengeance Class Military Dropship will begin shortly within this newly operational Naval Shipyard. These same sources have also indicated that sometime within 3046 both the Port Simon Naval Shipyards (located within the Federated Suns) and the Port Sydney Naval Shipyards (located within the Lyran Commonwealth) are also expected to begin production of these same Vengeance Class Dropships ….
As report by Nana Mitsuharah, Reporter CMM.
……. CMM report to be sent via HPG to all affiliates stations via ComStar Station on …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
09/03/18 07:40 AM
58.175.193.140
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With House Davion becoming the inheritors of the Capellan Confederation with all its positives
Increased number of Worlds and their populations (and a new Leagues Mach that will require a new Duke);
New Military units from former Captured / destroyed Capellan Units;
Armaments industries;
Increased Jumpship / Dropship Fleet;
Increased Agricultue / Mining etc
And all the less than desirable – secessionists / freedom fighters etc.
In addition to this the Federated Suns have formed a new relationship with the Magistracy of Canopus and the Duchy of Andurien. As they have become a minor power by amalgamating their states.
In addition the new Federated Commonwealth will receive a new Capital World within the Terran Corridor such as New Earth – as a symbol of their two realms unity (in reality a symbol of their dominance over the remaining Houses and their Claim to being the next House of the First Lord).
So what’s next …
• St Ives becomes its own mini state - thoughts of grandeur?
• Skye attempts to become its own state – also thoughts of grandeur?
• Potential detent with the Free Worlds League that could in time, becomes one State with the Federated Commonwealth (political marriage)?
• The Draconis Combine becoming more and more isolated?
• Free Rassalhauge Republic / Ronin War?
…. and in the Combine’s isolation – an attempted alliance with the Free Worlds League and war.
Attempt to destroy the Federated Commonwealth Alliance – assist Ryan Steiner in his bid for self-determination / becoming the next Archon.
However, what else can happen
Civil War within the Free Worlds League with the assassination of the current House Marik’s Captain General and heirs. (Will the Combine assist one side and the Federated Commonwealth assist the other in a proxy war for the title of First Lord by utilizing hidden systems to jump their forces into the Free Worlds league)
… and as for the Periphery States
At one time during the Federated Suns Past (2581) the Federated Suns provided the Outworlds Alliance with a brigade of elite soldiers mustered from the Davion Brigade of Guards in return for twelve boarder Systems.
So how about renewing this allegiance by stabbing Kurita in the back?
As for the remaining states – the usual or is there any other thing that could be included? Raiding / Exploration / Pirate Vs. Pirate
ComStar – Behind the scenes – assisting Kurita and anyone who is against the Federated Commonwealth or does a schism evolve within Comstar as those who can see the rebirth of the Star League becoming a reality and Comstar’s Blakean Theocracy is becoming an impediment towards this. Thus a hidden war within Comstar?
Other Players in the game make their presence known ….
The Black Dragon Society aim to remove Theodore as he is not seen as a traditional Kurita. (Another internal War?)
And then there are the mercenary objectives throughout the Sphere …
All of this before the Clans ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
12/14/18 12:07 AM
58.175.193.140
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And what are the unexpected consequences of the fall of the Capellan Confederation?
First,
The influx of vast sums of money to re-build their economy together with previous racism (cultural tension) will lead to tension between the older Camellan’s March and the newer League’s March.
Especially when former Capellan’s March Military Units are transferred to the newer League’s March.
Thus many could perceive the Capellan’s Mach as loosing much of its prestige to League’s March (Capellans).
A bitter rivalry could evolve between the the two Dukedoms of the Federated Suns / Federated Commonwealth
This could even lead to low level fighting between the two.
Second,
A hidden society within the former Capellan Confederation will be formed with one aim to restore the Capellan Confederation to its former prestige. Thus terrorists, assassins and saboteurs may become prevalent throughout the new League’s March.
The rise of a criminal underworld – that could lead to a corrupt element within the League’s March.
Third,
Many may even welcome the new government as the level of their lifestyle increases, thus conflict between the old guard and the new clash politically / and within the shadows physically.
Fourth,
Former Capellan Units (even House Units) may seek asylum within either the Periphery or the Free Worlds League – raids are conducted by these units within the new Leagues March.
Fifth,
The elements that springboard a dictator to power may be utilized (i) economic poverty – the inability to feed the population – (ii) political instability – an era of crisis (iii) hyper –inflation (a failed economy from prosperity to poverty. Thus life within the state gets worse over time as uncertainty rises, people therefore look for a strong leader to fix the problem especially when that person promises to restore the state to a position of strength – thus the people will have pride in the country once more. This therefore could lead to the development of a Dictator.
Sixth,
Sun Tzu is kidnapped by DEST - used as a figurehead to legitimize a government in exile (and supported by the Draconis Combine).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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giaonhan247
12/24/18 04:41 AM
113.161.57.110
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hi
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Requiem
12/31/18 08:46 PM
58.175.193.140
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Further consequences
Converting the former citizens of the Capellan Confederation to become loyal citizens of the Federated commonwealth requires the use of baubles (Napoleon once wrote … it is with such baubles that I will rule them …)
By improving the quality of their lives through such baubles, together with education prospects that will improve the social standing of their children will loyalty be ensured.
However there will always be malcontents
Thus security forces will be required (especially within the initial years) …. and as such mercenary contracts will be issued throughout the new Leagues March to ensure civil stability.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/06/19 02:40 AM
1.158.130.13
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In my new post entitled “Obscure issues in history that have little reason …..”, we come to find out about the lost world of Aosia.
“Aosia’s Coordinates X:Y 112.622 : -141.194 - thus the closest planets to this is Remshield X:Y 97.445 : -139.89”
We also come to know that it was a fortress world established to assist with raids into the Capellan Confederation and where sometime prior to 3025 it was abandoned for one reason or another and was subsequently lost to the majority of all maps due to its lack of significance.
However, some maps and people know about the history of this world and its significance as a forward strike base into the Capellan Confederation.
However, this post - that was established as an Alt Universe where the new FC attacks and conquers the CC in the War of 3039-40 – Operation Rat Revival – The Capellan’s Fall War did not include missing worlds such as Aosia.
Thus I will now amend my original invasion to include the world of Aosia, so that some time prior to the invasion (let me say six to nine months prior to the invasion) an expeditionary unit is sent to Aosia – where the FC unit was ordered to reconnaissance the entire planet as well as the abandoned fortress – once they believe they have a secure world Prince Hanse Davion “the Fox” will begin to utilize the world as a forward strike / resupply base hidden from CC military intelligence – to this end the FC transfer large quantities of materials and units to the world of Aosia – with a long term plan to resupply their units within their sector from this world – that is the Capella Wave 1 Sector - as from March 3039.
As noted above the Capella Wave 1 - March 3039 included the following …
Target World..........................................Defending Forces.......................................Invading Forces
Kurragin................................................. Stapelton's Grenadiers (2nd Btln)..............15th Arcturian Guards
Cordiagr................................................. Stapelton's Grenadiers (1st Btln).............. 2nd Robinson Rangers
Capella...................................................Blanfords Grenadiers;.................................5th Syrtis Fusiliers RCT
...............................................................House Matsukai (2 Btlns) .......... 6th Syrtis Fusiliers RCT; and Grimm Detrmination
No Return.............................................. House Hiritsu (1st Btln).............................. Eridani Light House (1st Rgmt)
Randor................................................... House Hiritsu (2nd Btln)............................. Eridani Light House (2nd Rgmt)
Kashilla.................................................. Stapelton's Grenadiers (3rd Btln)................ 12th Vegan Rangers (1st & 2nd Rgmt)
Exedor.................................................... House Ijori (1st Btln)................................... 12th Vegan Rangers (3rd & 4th Rgmt)
I can thus assume some of these units could have been assigned to the world of Aosia prior to the invasion and conquest of the Capellan Confederation.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/06/19 03:14 AM
1.158.130.13
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You could even assume the Capellan’s have long memories as well and once the war kick’s off that someone remembers the world of Aosia – and they determine that there is a possibility that there is a strategic supply base upon this world.
Thus they dispatch a unit to raid this world.
If the FC forces defending this world win – the war continues on as per normal.
However, if the CC forces attacking this world win – the war within the Capellan front either slows down or stops due to a lack of military supplies (that is until a new source of materials can be sourced – thus the war will re-start again)
Thus there is an interesting side battle that will have a very large consequence to the duration of the war.
Many units could retreat / reform - create new units from the survivors of other units - establish a new defensive line or even be transported to the Capitol - thus making the final battle larger and more destructive than that of the original notes regarding the final battle.
this change to the war will thus provide many new battles, that could be upon other worlds not even considered before or CC units upon other worlds may find that reinforcements / relief units are on the way ...
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/06/19 10:48 PM)
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Requiem
07/25/19 11:49 PM
1.158.206.105
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However what is the aim of St. Ives at this stage - their aim at this time would include –
Expanding St. Ives – by allowing former CC worlds, who are in close proximity to St. Ives, to defect to them may prove for some to be more favourable than becoming absorbed into the FC – with the outbreak of war and the realisation that the CC is going to fall many worlds will automatically shift their allegiance to the remaining Liao within St. Ives.
This in turn will preserve many worlds and the civilians who live there from the ravages of war.
The defection of Regular Military and Mercenary Units to St Ives – realising the fall of CC is inevitable may unit commanders may automatically request from St Ives recognition of their change in allegiance.
How many of the CC regular and mercenary units would defect to the new enlarged St.Ives Compact?
Rather than taking up Hanses’ offer to become a mercenary of the FC the following will declare their allegiance to St. Ives:-
Bullard’s Armoured Cavalry
Ambermarle’s Highlanders
Little Richard’s Panzer Brigade
Tooth of Ymir
Olson’s Rangers
And Possibly:-
15th Dracon
4th Tau Ceti Rangers
Regular Units – who may Change sides:-
Many battered units who are forced from their initial garrisons may rather than fleeing to Sian may end up on St. Ives where they are reformed into new units.
Warrior Houses – they are not known for their pragmatism, thus I would conclude many may fight to the last. However, if their Warrior house was to look at the end game and suggest it was their duty to see to the rebirth of the CC rather than be there at its fall the possibility of a Warrior House surviving could be all too real.
In the future where Sun-Tzu Liao (saved from the fall of Sian with his sister) could attempt a Coup of St. Ives to reform the CC, it would be from one or more of these surviving Warrior Houses he would find the military support he would need.
Thus the remnants of Houses …..Hiritsu, LuSann and Ijori could be considered as candidates, who over time could once more expand in size.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ZekeCrane
10/11/19 03:17 PM
12.247.167.54
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I am reminded of a goofy Battletech/Frozen fanfic which tweaked the timeline, just a little later down the road, against the poor Capellans.
In OTL, Hanse Davion allows Candace Liao to extract revenge for the death of her husband Justin. However, in the fic, Hanse decides he's had enough of Liao shenanigans (because they're cruel and tragic). Hanse politely informs Candace she can work with him to preserve something of Capella and its culture, but Romano Liao and her progeny have to go.
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ghostrider
10/13/19 11:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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That is more like what should have happened, then the canon story. The Liao line in charge should have been removed.
Candace was not perfect, but far better leader for the CC. Sun Tzu's story is ok, but was predictable.
Kai should have taken over at some point, to avoid further blood shed of the Capellan people. But then that would have removed the entire CC from their comeback.
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ZekeCrane
10/15/19 01:26 PM
12.247.167.54
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Pretty much. I can buy the writers not wanting to completely eliminate a Great House from the Inner Sphere, but Justin's assassination would have pissed off Hanse beyond belief.
From the fic:
3052 - Operation Reciprocity is launched. 15 AFFC RCTs along with several regiments from the Saint Ives Compact and the Northwind Highlanders mercenary unit launch a decapitation strike on Sian and other key worlds in the Confederation. Romano is condemned by her own words as ordering the complete destruction of the planet with hidden WMDs for 'their total failure' as she attempts to flee, but she is stopped and killed by her sister, having 'risen' from the dead and snuck onto the planet to lie in wait for her. Her partner Tsen Shang dies alongside her. The entire conversation with Romano giving the order to destroy the planet for failing her is rebroadcast across Sian and the Confederation at the same time. What little loyalist support there had been mostly collapses leaving little for the AFFC troops to mop up as units in droves swear loyalty to the new regime. MIIO agents assasinate Kali Liao and Sun Tzu Liao who are off planet at the time, successfully framing their mother for the deed. In the weeks that follow, announcements of the re-joining of Saint Ives to the Confederation, the pending return of two thirds of the worlds lost in the 4th Succession War and the formalisation of the alliance with the Federated Commonwealth, including open markets and economic aide, dramatically increase support for Chancellor Candace across the Confederation.
Personally, I think Hanse would've tossed a lot more than 15 RCTs, especially with the detente he had with Theodore Kurita. Whole lotta Draconis March units could use some live fire experience, after all.
The fun part is that because Sun-Tzu's not around to court Isis Marik, and because the 'crazy' side of the Liao tree is permanently pruned, Hanse Davion doesn't die from a heart attack. He DOES suffer a less dangerous one, which forces him to pull Victor from the Clan frontlines to start taking up some of Hanse's burdens (specifically, Victor is named Lord of the Crucis March).
All SORTS of shifts in the Inner Sphere situation with this change. 
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ghostrider
10/15/19 01:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the time line was the same with the clan invasion, there is very good reason not to have more then 15 hit the CC.
The clans had barely been stopped, and there would be no real reason to believe they would honor the truce.
But in earlier discussion about this, I said it was bs that the FC didn't hit Cappella. Damage the ship yards and warehouses on that world or in system to remove the CC's ability to make dropships and jump ships. If they had, the cc would have become less then some of the periphery states in means of attack ability. Not just making new ones, but they would have severely cut into repair facillities as well.
But they didn't do anything of the sort.
Just threatening the ship yards would have drawn off more defenders, allowing a much more devastating attack on those left, including the MAC. They would have been called up to defend that world, leaving them weakened on Sarna.
Removing the CC in the 3039 war is one thing I agree with Requim on. The DC was still probably the better choice, had the ship yards been damaged. It would have allowed a small mount of troops to raid the hell out of what remained of the CC, and even gained worlds from it. The Comstar line of the DC invasion was a bit much to take, but again. Destroying the DC, or even heavily damaging it would have cause issue with the player base. Also, it would have allowed the IS to respond better to the clan invasion.
It could have even removed the extra comstar mechs in the DC, had the FC taken Capella. The extra ships would have given them that much more ability to move troops.
Now this part,
The fun part is that because Sun-Tzu's not around to court Isis Marik, and because the 'crazy' side of the Liao tree is permanently pruned, Hanse Davion doesn't die from a heart attack. He DOES suffer a less dangerous one, which forces him to pull Victor from the Clan frontlines to start taking up some of Hanse's burdens (specifically, Victor is named Lord of the Crucis March).
is something the author of the alt line being discussed would have fits about. It would stop the entire rise of Katherine Steiner, by removing almost all of her power before she got it.
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ZekeCrane
10/15/19 10:57 PM
47.36.235.237
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>> If the time line was the same with the clan invasion, there is very good reason not to have more then 15 hit the CC.
The clans had barely been stopped, and there would be no real reason to believe they would honor the truce. <<
Eh, good point. This was after all 3052, and the Inner Sphere had yet to reach anywhere close to technological parity with the Clans. Fifteen might've been all Hanse could afford.
>>is something the author of the alt line being discussed would have fits about. It would stop the entire rise of Katherine Steiner, by removing almost all of her power before she got it. <<
Depends. I don't think there's ever been a proper explanation for why Katherine went off the rails (beyond the vague 'she's more of a Steiner than a Davion' remark by Focht -- a hilarious comment considering who HE was).
Let's presume -- for the sake of argument -- her intentions were to cover the political front for her brother, and she grew frustrated because he seemed completely oblivious to her work behind the scenes. That could certainly twist her to the point where she says 'Screw it, I have a REALM to rule' and starts taking steps towards sole rulership of the FC. I admit this is ALL conjecture, by the way; if you have a canon source that contradicts me, please let me know.
But in this new timeline, Victor is now being trained to cover the political as well as military angles. He'll probably always be fairly straightforward, much like his father when Hanse was younger; but Katherine might find herself put under less stress and as a result, fails to begin her 'start of darkness'. This results in a Katherine who does not turn into a power hungry monster.
And if the monster was always there, well, now she has to knock off BOTH parents. Tricky and dangerous, since if she only gets one, the other will most certainly be on guard.
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ghostrider
10/16/19 12:50 AM
66.74.60.165
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It is my opinion that Katherine 'went off the rails' because of a few reasons. Greed being the main one.
It would come in multiple forms.
First, she would have an ego that would make her assume she was the savior of the IS. But with that, she had to kill her mother, to avoid being put in a bad light, as Melissa was loved by a lot more then Katherine was.
Second, she was second in line, and Victor didn't seem like he was going to just hand over the reigns to her before the clans showed up, and even then, it was only his lack of paying attention to her games, that he left to perform the Trial of Refusal on the clans home worlds.
Third, ties in to the first. Jealousy. Mom was getting all the attention, and she was deep in the shadows as she grew up. Dad was always going to be a shining star, and she wanted to impress him, but again, Victor was the main focus.
Fourth would come as she learned she could control others easily, and craved that power. So she started to learn to manipulate things to gain it. Respect is great when you can get it, but fear works when you can't. Being the first daughter of the military genius, and the beloved ruler allowed her to indulge in things, and showed she would not live up to either parents reputation. So destroying those under them started to look good. The idea that if I can't be the best, then make sure all others look worse.
Now the issue of Katherine sending the assassin to kill Melissa might be enough to put the idea of her trying to run the political parts of the realms to rest. So even before she took the FC from Victor, she was already getting rid of potential rivals.
Victor was too naive to think Yvonne could keep Katherine in her place. Granted, that may well have been the last straw that sent Katherine over the edge completely.
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Requiem
10/19/19 07:54 PM
1.158.182.82
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Katherine's grievance .... being the second born - never to be the ruler - though in her mind the more worthy to rule as she constantly outperformed Victor in all things and yet was never to be given the throne just because Victor was born first.
This indignity could not stand - Victor had to go ... one way or the other so that she could rule as she would be superior to that of her brother "the midget toy soldier"
and this is where the writers made their mistake .... Katherine would have sent her assassin against Victor not her Mother - as he is the only impediment to her rule.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/20/19 02:04 AM
66.74.60.165
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Katherine would have sent her assassin against Victor not her Mother - as he is the only impediment to her rule.
I agree that Katherine would have sent assassins against Victor.
I don't agree that he was her only impediment. Victor had asked his mother to stay on after Hanse died, as he didn't feel he was ready to rule.
It may well have been, Katherine realized he knew he needed some training, and wanted to make sure he didn't get it. Had he stepped back from the military man, he would have been a leader of the FC. Not just the military.
There is another possible factor. Katherine was raised and trained in the LC portion of the FC. It could be that she was upset that her father was ignoring her for Victor. The distance between capitals doesn't register in sibling rivalry in the scorned persons mind.
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Requiem
11/15/19 02:34 AM
1.158.182.82
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Another consideration to the War of 3039
History lesson – The Battle of Inchon 9/15/1950 – The United Nations Command had withdrawn to Busan in the South following a North Korean attack, supported by China and the Soviet Union, but this operation revitalized the UN Forces.
The largest landing operation since WWII – troops landed at the port of Inchon, captured Seoul, and cut off North Korean supplies.
In the terms of Winston Churchill – striking at the soft underbelly
In Battletech Terms –
First wave – as per the Canon war of 3039
Amendment – prior to the start of 3039 – Federated Suns forces establish bases deep within Outworlds Alliance – They then strike at key worlds deep within the DCMS –
SUGGESTED TARGETS – Galedon V, New Samarkland, Oshika, Pesht, Kagoshima, and finally Luthien
Aim –
Step 1 – due to the main assault – the DCMS must gather their forces to fight off the deep strike FC forces (which means other places will be less protected – New Targets of Opportunity for FC forces along the borders)
Step 2 – the FS forces can either attack the suggested targets, above, or circle around behind the DCMS forces and pincer them – Main Targets – Supply Bases
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
11/16/19 07:48 PM
1.158.182.82
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Target:- The Outworlds Alliance
Conquering this periphery realm can be considered to being the first step to conquering the DC!
There is no way the DC could ensure their military (circa 3039) could satisfactorily ensure they have enough forces to guard the entirety of the FC border.
In my opinion, it could be considered they would have to reduce their forces along the new FRR border to ensure they hold the new border along the new “Outworlds Alliance March” border. However if the Steiner’s entered into a mutual defense agreement with FRR and considering the issues the Marik’s were having I would suggest they would stay out of a newly initiated the 5th Succession War (where the DC is now the Primary target) the DC’s only hope would be to reduce their realms size and then attempt to maintain a new border with a reduced supply channel – similar to that of the CC.
The only question would be how much would the DC have to give up, to ensure they are not completely conquered by the FC.
Even with their new regiments from Comstar I doubt they would survive for long without reducing the size of the DC realm and then attempting to hold the line at this new border.
Their new border could possibly become the – half of the Alshain District, Albiero Prefecture, Kagoshima Prefecture and the Ningxia Prefecture.
So I ask why the Outworlds Alliance was never invaded?
Strategically and tactically for the FS (FC) this is the way to damage the DC
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/17/19 02:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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Human history would suggest that appeasement does not work. Didn't work in WWII, it wouldn't work in 3000 and later.
Conquering the OA is not something Hanse wanted to do. Both the OA and the FRR were doing a balancing act to keep this very fact from happening. They could not be seen favoring one or the other, as they knew they would get invaded.
From what it is looking like, this is all a numbers idea again. FC has x amount of troops, while DC has y amount.
To attack and take the OA, the FC would have to devote a lot of resources to do so, making it possible the DC could hit them hard, and take out more units then even a straight up invasion of the DC might well take out.
As Hanse was one to try to show some sort of decency to the entire IS, invading the OA, would very much turn the public, as well as other realms against him. It would show the FS portion of the FC as bullies, ready to take out anyone in their way.
This would prompt the LC to rise up, and the other realms as well as smaller entities, like the periphery states, independent worlds and such to have to strike, or risk being taken one at a time. Stand together or fall separately concept here.
If Objective Raids source book is correct, the OA would not contribute anything the soaking off troops to garrison their worlds, as the CC massively out produces weapons of war, then the OA. Staging on worlds outside of the OA would be a better idea, as the number of troops required to hold the area would be far less, and still allow you the flank striking ability.
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Requiem
11/17/19 05:46 AM
1.158.182.82
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Where is it written Hanse did not want to invade the OA? – he gives his all in war and would go straight for your neck – if he could use the OA to destroy the DC once and for all he would – he is a conqueror not a person concerned with what other people think of him? And who would say they shouldn’t invade if he can convince the FC people this could be the campaign to end the DC once and for all – the Draconis March (Sandovals) would be all for it, so with them on his side who would say no?
Sorry but I cannot see why the LC would rise up – they went with the Canon 3039 War – and when you realize that by attacking the OA it could take DC units off their mutual border to fight in the OA (thus making it easier for them to attack) why would they complaign? The brunt of the attack will be taken by the FC not the LC.
It is not a matter of appeasement as the leaders of the OA would not have as say in the matter – sooner or later either the FS or the DC should have / would have invaded the OA to gain a tactical / strategic advantage to invade the other – WWII rather than go against the Maginot Line you just go around it!
The FC (Hanse) is not going to take the entirety of the OA – just those worlds along the border and those worlds to ensure the safety of his forward invasion bases that he will use to strike deep within the DC to destroy their supply routes – force the DC to assign forces from the front / border worlds to fight this new threat – or get in behind the DC forces in a flanking maneuver.
To me this is just another huge ‘plot’ hole where the games developers let the war of 3039 story down.
Both the FS and the DC should have battled to gain a strategic advantage – establishing bases to strike at the rear of their enemy’s border.
Circa 3039 Numbers – just a few years prior there was the 4th SW so saying they could not invade due to numbers (in my opinion) does not hold water – by invading the DC is the realm most at risk due to their short-fall in numbers – the DC does in no way have sufficient forces to engage in any long term invasion of the FC– and any forces they take away to fight in the OA will create a gaps for the FC to exploit. Extending the length of the border can only harm the DC whilst providing the FC with the opportunity to force the DC to retreat to a new more sustainable border (reduced in size) in an attempt to preserve the realm when things start to bad.
Also remember the CC are down to next to no forces – any adventurism on their part in 3039 will see them utterly destroyed by the FC.
Thomas Marik only gained the throne from Duncan in 3037 and the FWL are in no way ready to engage in another succession war so close the last – in all probability if offered a non aggression pact with the FC he would take it – yes he would put his forces on full alert but I doubt he would send his forces to invade the FC - the risk of yet again mass defeat is not worth it. Better to start rebuilding / retraining his military (an expansion upon the current home defense act) to repel the FC in the future would be the most logical course of action – or looking for a suitable bride for Victor would be the other.
Thus the DC are completely on their own!
In my opinion, this new expanded 3039 war would have been far more exciting that the Canon story!
Thus a new Alt Universe setting for this war should be considered for those who like to modify the Canon history.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
11/17/19 06:08 AM
1.158.182.82
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My Alt Universe Plot twist to the War of 3039
The DC created a copy of the Wolfs Dragoons, so why not have a FC copy?
Four new FC RCTs – Trained by the Wolfs …. In 3038 they establish secret bases in OA and just prior to the outbreak of war they would start a deep strike – raiding many of the DCs regional capitol worlds and those worlds that hold any military / civilian importance – forcing the DCMS to remove forces from elsewhere to engage this threat in their rear.
Once removed FC spies will then notify the FC of the vulnerability and strike accordingly.
Thus your home forces can be DCMS or FCMS in this new war game of 3039.
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/17/19 01:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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First. The appeasement isn't the OA settling for it, but the DC as stated "The only question would be how much would the DC have to give up, to ensure they are not completely conquered by the FC."
Your said it yourself several times. The DC would be destroyed, otherwise, there is no way to take the 'first prince' throne of the Star League. It would remove the one thing that prevents a full conquest of the IS by the FS/FC.
The states all had versions of the Dragoons, though not all were up to speed so to speak. The Crusius lancers, the Sword of Light and such comes to mind. The big problem of having so many elite soldiers in one unit means pulling them from other units. Which in turns drops those units in skills. The treat of say the Sword of Light, drops when there isn't the threat factor of them being an 'elite' unit. Not that they were all even regular status for the soldiers in them.
Both the FS and the DC should have battled to gain a strategic advantage – establishing bases to strike at the rear of their enemy’s border.
If this was true, then it would have been done in earlier wars. For either side to invade, it would mean taking troops from other areas, which causes issues there.
From my view of the copies of the Dragoons, they tend to be merc units. The story plots seem to have local leaders get jealous and try to absorb them into personal units. So they break with the home nations and become mercs.
And one more point. Both nations have forces on the border of the OA. It may be a surprise, but this is part of why you can't just pull troops from areas on a whim.
And deep raids?
If the nations had the jumpships to perform strikes like this, they would have done it more often then they did. Non nukes being dropped on the heavy industrial worlds or even mech/spec ops raids, to remove that ability would have been done. I know you think the IS had so many, that this would have been a no brainer. Alas, the entire setting very much suggests they didn't really have enough to cover the worlds they had well, much less excess.
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Requiem
11/17/19 07:00 PM
1.158.182.82
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What is the aim of the game? To become the First Lord … thus the FC ARE just fulfilling the aim of the game ….
So …. Sorry, no, if the FC entered into this attack strategy the DC would not fall they would just have to retreat and give up one third to one half of the DC - then re-establish a new front line (with a reduced supply lines). Thus the DC are now in the same boat the CC are in.
Establishing elite units from the ranks have always been established, so what’s the issue? Pulling elite soldiers will NOT reduce the overall experience of the unit … a veteran unit will always be a veteran unit despite taking a couple of the more elite people / units.
QUOTE: If this was true, then it would have been done in earlier wars.
This is a correct statement …. and yet the game’s developers are not that great when it comes to tactics / strategy …. So we the game’s players are once again left to pick up the pieces and correct any shortcomings the developers missed.
So, as an Alt Universe your home group could have this occur sooner, in either the First or the Second Succession Wars, or leave it for the war of 3039, the choice is again yours to make.
Quote: For either side to invade, it would mean taking troops from other areas, which causes issues there.
Considering the number of units both the FC and the DC have – it would only be a problem for the DC – which is the point of utilizing this plan!
Where is it written the DC and the FC have forces along the OA border? Sorry I have yet to read this anywhere. And yes I can establish new elite units and have them assigned to on a “whim”.
QUOTE: And deep raids?
Then what about the Steiner’s deep raid into the FWL and what about The Big MAC’s deep raid into the FS? And what about in the future when the new Star League went to Huntress – sorry but I cannot see this point winning out. There are examples of these occurring in the past so I cannot see why not the FC could do this in the future?
Plus the overall game’s strategy, in my opinion, seems like it would be fun to run for gamer's who enjoy the Alt Universe over that of the Canon’s ill conceived and executed history.
It just makes sense that if Davion does proceed with the 3039 war he would have had something up his sleeve to cause maximum discomfort for the DC – and again, in my opinion, this should have been it!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/18/19 12:50 AM
66.74.60.165
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8th Sword of Light- Delacruz
Ryuken-san- Niles
Bryceland DMM- Bryceland
11th Avalon Hussars- Kesai IV
All four are in the 20 year update in the area of the OA, according to the map in the book. As units tend to be spread out among planets in their general area, that means some WILL BE on the border of the OA. It was be completely stupid not to have some forces based there. The Coordinated Weakness policy comes to mind. Which is why moving troops to other areas isn't as easy as it sounds. You need to have some troops almost everywhere, or risk having revolts and work stoppages. Even the FC has them.
Then what about the Steiner’s deep raid into the FWL and what about The Big MAC’s deep raid into the FS? And what about in the future when the new Star League went to Huntress – sorry but I cannot see this point winning out. There are examples of these occurring in the past so I cannot see why not the FC could do this in the future?
And how many of the deep raids don't make it more then 2 jumps in? Oh wait. They only really talk about the few that succeeded. How many troops were left in enemy territory that were part of a failed raid? If it was soooo easy, then Defiance would have been destroyed in the first war, much less still running in the fourth. Luthien itself is supposed to be a major manufacturing planet in the DC. So wiping that out should decapitate the DC. Government and manufacturing... In the first war, Galaxy and a few other jumpship makers would have ceased to exist as well.
So …. Sorry, no, if the FC entered into this attack strategy the DC would not fall they would just have to retreat and give up one third to one half of the DC - then re-establish a new front line (with a reduced supply lines). Thus the DC are now in the same boat the CC are in.
You missed the point with this. Giving up lands only saves them for a short time. The FC would NOT allow the DC to survive for any length of time.
And the FC did have something up their sleeves. Comstar had a bigger set of aces up theirs to save the DC.
So again. Stop trying to follow Canon with the alt. It doesn't work. You create even more issues trying to 'fix' the flaws by leaving most of the crap in there, and only adding to it. The Alt timeline was supposed to remove the CC from the game. Not hit the DC and hobble all sides so the clans could invade easily. So this is basically moot.
What is the aim of the game? To become the First Lord … thus the FC ARE just fulfilling the aim of the game ….
This is only the story line. The real aim of the game is to keep making money.
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Requiem
11/18/19 04:19 AM
1.158.182.82
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Delacruz, Niles, Bryceland and Kesai IV are all on the border, so how many units are near Dneiper, Antallos (Port Krin), Milligan’s World or Prinis Prime?
Big difference in location …. and as such it is highly unlikely any of these DCMS forces would be stationed that high on the OA border.
Yes you do need forces on every world – this is why you have planetary garrisons – and yet how many of these garrisons have armored units or Mechs even? Next to none ….
QUOTE: How many troops were left in enemy territory that were part of a failed raid? If it was soooo easy, then Defiance would have been destroyed in the first war, much less still running in the fourth
Hesperus II …. and yet how many raids by the DCMS have been staged against this Steiner facility …. Fourteen (14) by 3039, so if it was such a waste of time why keep striking at it?
Sorry but this, to me, is the most rational means of causing the maximum amount of destruction to the DCMS during the 3039 war.
So yes the DCMS are forced to retreat after a number of years of war – or risk total destruction
As for ComStar – resupplying the DCMS with Mechs from their stockpile during the war would never be allowed – the risk of being caught by the FCMS would be too great …. What would the Steiner’s and Davion’s demands be of Comstar if they were caught? (Comstar are nothing if not practical in their political maneuvering)
Sorry but Comstar has already paid for the establishment of the FRR – their only hope now is to cut the DCMS free and move on to their final trump card the FWL and their former Acolyte now the Captain General of the FWL.
The only other Comstar possibility is to supply the DCMS and the CCMS with blueprint technology that will enable them to manufacture ER, Pulse, Gause Rifles ECMS, Beagle Probes etc before the FC is able to manufacture them – thus providing their remaining small forces with a weapons advantage above that of their rival FC forces.
However, if they did this, would it not go against the holy tenants of Blake? Yes ….
QUOTE: So again. Stop trying to follow Canon with the alt. It doesn't work. You create even more issues trying to 'fix' the flaws by leaving most of the crap in there, and only adding to it. The Alt timeline was supposed to remove the CC from the game. Not hit the DC and hobble all sides so the clans could invade easily. So this is basically moot.
Sorry, but I disagree people should be given the choice of their games scenario – as for the Clans – introduce advance weapons systems as well as the idea of the Omni mech technology before the Clans even arrive – as well as PT craft with Naval weapons and the idea of Big Wings – once you start an attrition warfare the Clans will not survive for long – Sibko reinforcement as well as assassinations via sniper and IEDs will ensure the Clans loose hard (despite the badly written Cannon suggests) – they have no idea as to how to fight a protracted insurgency utilizing such tactics against them.
What would happen if you take out all their workers (food / water poison) how will the warrior caste even fix their own vehicles as is this not beneath them?
QUOTE: This is only the story line. The real aim of the game is to keep making money.
How is that working out … with the problems that occurred in Germany …. How many books have been printed recently regarding post 3150 to complete the HPG failure and the Fortress / Clan expansion series …. Next to none in the last two years!, …. The only way to keep the game going is for gamers to write their own game!
Thus people should be put forward their ideas so the community can make a choice as to where they want their story to go.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/18/19 12:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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Flaw in the 14 raids on Hesperus II. Not all were DC. A couple came from the FWL. Different directions, so adds different issues into it. It still comes down to 14 raids on the world made it there, and failed.
To hit Luthien or New Avalon, it would be a couple of months in transit alone. There would be no help if anything goes wrong.
As for troops on the borders, I don't have a full listing of what is where. But to be honest, if the FS were looking to take out a periphery realm, the TC would be more likely. The OA is more of a neutral buffer with the DC, where the TC is active in hitting the FS. Also, I would assume there are troops from both nations in the OA, even if it is just to help defend against pirates. Simple patrols to help calm fears the larger nations might have. And I would believe they both have used OA space to 'raid' each other.
The timing of Comstar resupplying the DC came before the war did, not during. It was the extra units that were already in training that helped stop the invasion.
The FWL would not be able to stop the FC if the DC fell. Thought I do find Comstars inability to find the agents from the FS/FC that have been so successful in keeping the nations in the FWL hostile to the Captain-General. It almost makes you wonder if Comstar wasn't assisting them in order to force the FWL to at least become friendlier.
From the sounds of it, once the Jihad happened, the story has not recovered from it. The clans splintering, but yet able to push the IS around still points out to holes that should not exist. Yes. You can buy limited supplies from the Diamond Sharks. But the IS should be building the weapons, especially heat sinks, themselves. Endosteel and Ferrous Armor being the next to come to mind. Each realm would have their favorites among the other weapons, and if following in the older lines, some realms would be hard up for specific weapons, such as the FWLs lack of PPCs, should extend into the ERPPC.
What would happen if you take out all their workers (food / water poison) how will the warrior caste even fix their own vehicles as is this not beneath them?
The clans will always have techs. Every sibco would produce some. And with them being in the IS, it provides more chances. Now poisoning water is a war crime of the worse nature. Getting caught doing that to even the clans should basically force all the players into removing at least the leaders of that nation, to full destruction of it. Once the clans found out about it, they would call it dezgra and not worry about who won the bid to get into the IS, but open it up to all clans. And that isn't saying the IS states wouldn't help them in this.
Granted the DC got away with it during the fourth war on Northwind if I remember right. Then the CC got away with it in the St. Ives war. It is a bad thing to continue with the storylines. Sadly enough, the nuke bombardments may well be the way the story will continue...
And as I said it before. The canon story line isn't anywhere near perfect, arguing they are completely wrong as their numbers aren't printed, even after years of being worked on, doesn't mean they are wrong in their ideas. It is their game after all.
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Requiem
11/18/19 05:56 PM
1.158.182.82
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QUOTE: To hit Luthien or New Avalon, it would be a couple of months in transit alone. There would be no help if anything goes wrong.
Correct.
However, this would not diminish the fun of raiding their Capitol – The FS did with the CC so why not the DC? Have you ever considered raiding your enemies’ capitol world – I believe it would be a fun game win or loose.
Just remember the Clan’s were a vast deep strike, and when the game developers provided them with their favoritism they were able to win – and yet they should have been kicked out with attrition warfare!
Consider the location of the TC – there is nothing there except the ‘Mech and aerospace manufactories – thus they have no strategic value whatsoever.
However the OA provides a road right into the heart of the DC – thus they are of great strategic value for the FC when you use a direct attack around Terra as a feint for the main attack, as a dagger in the back coming from the top of the OA (hidden FC bases). The question then becomes how quick can the DC reorganize their forces without collapsing.
Yes, I agree both FS and DC would use the OA as staging bases for small scale raids over the years but neither the FS or the DC have used the OA as a main staging area for a massive invasion – if this did happen then both the FS and the DC would have invaded in force – OA would have been conquered outright and a formal border would have been established.
Comstar – sorry I disagree in that they continued to reinforce the DC during the war – it was all completed prior to the war – the price for setting the FRR free – and all new units required time to train to become effective units – otherwise the FC troops would have just run right over them despite them having Star League era ‘Mechs – incompetence has no place on the battlefield!
FWL with ComStars (the complete ComGuard Forces? OR/– now WOB forces as they split from ComStar to assist the FWL?) help (plus the remains of the DC and the CC) – yes they could hurt the FC who knows how far they could go and what could happen.
For those who hate the FC – this could fracture the FC into many small realms (the war keeps going);
A resurgence in the CC and the DC (with help from ComStar);
For those on the side of the FC – the final destruction of the CC, DC and FWL – the beginning of the new FC Star league;
During the War the Clans invade – what next does the 5th Succession War be put on hold so that the IS can battle the Clans? Or does the FC have to continue a war on many fronts plus the Clans?
There are many possible scenarios for each home game to consider a possibility for them to fight in.
The game developers missed some great scenarios in their fear of the FC becoming the new First Realm of the new Star League.
The game was terminally injured with the jihad and all stories thereafter – look at the WOB Mechs and the Mechs of all the states thereafter – all of the states should have produced their own WOB variants (where are they? And what about the transformable fighters where did that go – and what about the drones where did they disappear to?)
QUOTE: The clans will always have techs.
And yet it will take how many months (six plus?) to get them into the IS – how much damage could the IS do to the Clans in that time period if they have a shortage of techs?
The Clans have no knowledge of fighting an insurgent force – if the planet becomes hostile they will all die shortly thereafter – if they use orbital bombardment to quell the civilians / declare dezgra we move straight into Jihad tactics of using nukes etc – The Clans do not have enough elementals or security forces to hold onto their bases in the event of an insurgency revolt.
Plus they do not have enough troops – Sibko numbers and Jumpship numbers can in no way see the clans involved in a protracted war based upon attrition warfare.
There must be numbers / tonnage etc as to supply - there also needs to supply routes for all the states including the Clans – the lack of this knowledge is another hole in the game as all re-supply routes are viable targets.
QUOTE: It is their game after all.
I strongly disagree with this ….. it is OUR game after all.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
11/18/19 10:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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However, this would not diminish the fun of raiding their Capitol – The FS did with the CC so why not the DC? Have you ever considered raiding your enemies’ capitol world – I believe it would be a fun game win or loose.
This is where the idea of story verse gameplay go separate ways.
Gameplay is easy to do anything you want, as you just make up forces and go at it. When, as you put it, the story has huge logic holes in it, this very sort of scenario shows thru.
The logistics as well as trying to get the troops to give their lives for an ill fated mission such as this, is how the logic fail happens.
Just remember the Clan’s were a vast deep strike, and when the game developers provided them with their favoritism they were able to win – and yet they should have been kicked out with attrition warfare!
Another numbers game. Spending troops just to do so is beyond wasteful for a commander. After a while, the troops stop serving and find other ways to make a living. Knowing you will be sent out to your deaths on a whim tends to do that.
Also, the lack of believing the IS didn't have the resources for that style of combat shows thru here.
And until Comstar finally changed sides, it would fail miserably. Putting 10 RCTs on a world would only invoke a clan to drop more troops then normal on it. But troops wasn't the main thing stopping the massed army moves. It was a lack of jumpships. But again. Mixing canon and alt causes a major problem with understanding the canon story line.
Consider the location of the TC – there is nothing there except the ‘Mech and aerospace manufactories – thus they have no strategic value whatsoever.
You seem to forget a MAJOR tactical issue with the TC. Removing the thorn from your backside, allows you to move more troops out of the area, as well as why you suggested removing the CC. Mech factories, as well as dropship and jumpship building. It gives you more resources, as well as cuts into the raids that pull your forces from other borders. And to suggest those are not worth the effort, suggests the exact opposite of what you have stated before.
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ghostrider
11/18/19 11:06 PM
66.74.60.165
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Now hitting the OA shows a lack of understanding the very thing you suggested about fighting the clans. The populace would use the assassinations and such without a second thought to either invader. Resistance would tie down more then a few RCTs worth of troops, making it almost impossible to use it as a staging area to raid or attack the combine. But then the perfect scenario would require them to just sit back and hail the FS/FC as heroes.
Ok. What remains of the CC and DC would you be using? Both would cease to exist, with the exception of some rebel units. The FWL can NOT take on the FC alone. The DC's fall would result in the end of the game. Or are you changing from the alt to canon and back again on a whim?
And yet it will take how many months (six plus?) to get them into the IS – how much damage could the IS do to the Clans in that time period if they have a shortage of techs?
And how many people in the IS would jump at the chance to show up those that have insulted them, by siding with the clans? Promises of running a world would very well cause more then a few to lean on others to fix the clans machines. Some in the IS actually welcome the clans. For some, they are far better then the IS born leaders. The IS was not united to remove the clans. Even moreso when they found out the clans were not complete homicidal maniacs.
I strongly disagree with this ….. it is OUR game after all.
So how much have you made on the game?
Did ANY of your ideas get used or even suggested they would be looked at?
As said before. One critic does not have that much influence on how games turn out. Thousands to millions sometimes don't. The owners can afford to lose a few dozen people, as there are others that will take their places. The games biggest issue is other games coming out the compete with them, such as warhammer and even video games. People would rather play borderlands or Fallout then spend time playing a board game. Even Megamech seems to be preffered over sitting around a table, play the board game.
A side note here. It is far more economical to sell the rules and TRO's online, then it is to print them up, ship them out, and hope game stores or even book shops will carry them.
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