Requiem
12/13/19 11:15 PM
1.158.182.82
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Can anyone explain the following ….
With regards to the DC Ghost regiments – as they are ComStar provided Star League Era ‘Mechs.
How and by whom were they serviced?
Did ComStar provide the DC with their techs or did the DC techs go back to ComStar Tech School to learn how to service them?
Supply parts.
How did the DC Ghost regiments get their parts – required to ensure their operation due to normal wear and tear / battlefield damage?
One can assume ComStar would never allow the DC to stockpile supply parts – thus making the DC eternally behooved to ComStar to ensure these units are battlefield ready.
What does this mean?
No matter how you look at it the DC got the short end of the stick – to keep the ghost regiments operating the DC would have to continually pander to ComStar’s whims or risk damaging the efficiency of these units.
Theodore Kurita
What was he thinking? He gave up the FRR for these units but at the same time locked the DC into being subservient to ComStar or risk damaging his new yakuza force.
One can ony wonder what his Generals thought about this deal ….
Fist they have to give Star League era Mechs to the Yakuza …. Major loss of face (a slap in the face as it were)
Second they have to pander to ComStar to ensure their working order …. Major loss of face for the DC
Replacement factory
Over time, did the DC establish a factory to manufacture their own spare parts for these Ghost Regiments?
and if they did why wasn't it scheduled for destruction by the FC?
Ghost Regiment’s Battlefield Readiness
In a prolonged battle how long could a Ghost Regiment – equipped with Star League era Mechs stand given ComStar’s resupply of spare parts (Not allowing the DC to stockpile parts)?
In a prolonged battle shouldn’t we see the Ghost Regiments cannibalizing one for another?
Also during the 3039 war how effective would this have made them – isn’t it reasonable to say that Hanse Davion realized the DC got them from ComStar thus he should have guessed there would have been a supply problem because he knows that ComStar would keep the DC on a short leash when it comes to supplies – thus they want to hold the whip end as it were?
So, isn’t it reasonable to say the Ghost Regiments brought with them more problems than they solved when it came to re-introducing Star League era Mechs into the DCMS?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/14/19 12:49 AM
66.74.60.165
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First off, the mechs provided by Comstar did not have upgraded weapons tech.
Now with that, I want to say the yakuza lords had some facilities to maintain mechs, but doubt it would be enough to keep a single battalion running.
Supply parts. All houses seem to be able to make parts for any mech they get, with a little time to research them. Otherwise, having any mech from a foreign nation, IE FS buys Awesomes from the FWL, trying to keep parts in stock isn't likely. It is even worse when the nation is your direct neighbor. Might only be little shops, not the big manufacturers. Not sure on that one.
This becomes even worse when a merc works for one house then moves on. It is probable, they have alot of 'house' mechs.
Giving up the FRR was to create a buffer nations to keep the LC portion of the FC from being able to strike easily. The fact the ronin wars happened, shows those that disapproved. The only thing about comstar mechs isn't the high tech so much, but they were almost new. That, and the shock value is about the only things they had over normal DC mechs. I want to say the try to hide them included having the DC produce some of those very mechs, using a different name of the unit. The Kintaro(sp?) is one of those mechs.
Also. How many of the DCMS actually knew about the mechs in the first place? Except the generals, most would have to hear it from their superior officers. Which would violate orders to not tell anyone. So honor would be applied, or ignored here.
It isn't like every nation knew where the factories of every other nation was at. And intel is still not an guaranteed or instant thing. But guessing that is still not something believed in.
Ok. Not all the League mechs were upgraded, and some of the parts were starting to be built in 3039 era. The fact the DC KNEW the FC would have to hit it, made the choice for them. Take the mechs, or be completely wiped out like the CC at that time. That would allow the FC to come in and bleed them both dry.
So take the assistance or die.
What choice would you have made?
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Karagin
12/14/19 12:50 AM
72.176.171.47
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They provided mechs with stripped SL tech weapons and replaced them with normal (for the time) Inner Sphere tech.
House Davion was fully aware of where they got them, but knowing and being able to do something about that, two different things entirely.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
12/14/19 04:07 AM
1.158.182.82
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Yes, ComStar removed all the SL weapons tech and replaced them with normal weapons however what about all the other parts necessary to keep the ‘Mech operational?
Under Sarna wiki – “BattleMech”
“ … much of the knowledge and technology humanity had gained became Lostech as factories were destroyed, centers of learning demolished, and technicians and scientists killed
had to make do with inferior components … with the knowledge to maintain and repair these facilities having long since vanished.
Over time, equipment shortages, system failures and similar problems sparked innumerable variants of the classic designs, with field modifications and makeshift repairs commonplace.”
Thus "NO!" I do not believe “All houses seem to be able to make parts for any ‘Mech they get, with a little time to research them”. This statement is a complete fallacy as at 3039.
If this was true then why was it so difficult to obtain spare parts? – evidence why is there so many strikes against supply bases such as Towne, Mara, New Ivaarsen and Rowe by the DC? And the use of supplies as suggested by Roweena Kurita in assisting Taragi to become DC Coordinator? Isn’t the lack of space parts one of the corner stones of the Battletech universe circa 3039?
So can you use the parts from one mech and put them in another mech? Or do you need specialty parts for you individual mech design? As only Omni-mechs are modular to an extent and thus easy to repair.
Isn’t it written that to fix your Locust Mech you need locust parts – its not as if you can put Stinger Parts into a Locust to keep it going. Also when you become an Astech don’t you need specialist training to work upon a single type or ‘Mech? (as evidenced by specialists from the company that makes the 'Mech going from unit to unit to train them). Thus how did the DC Astech’s obtain this information ? Sorry but I can’t see ComStar giving out their precious information to anyone. It is completely against their religion!
So how could they get serviced, that is unless you take them back to the ‘dealer’ to get the major servicing completed – this could only be achieved if ComStar personnel were imbedded within the Ghost units to make these repairs.
Thus, I believe, my statements (as noted above) hold true.
There is a major issue (problem) here that was never explained.
QUOTE: House Davion was fully aware of where they got them, but knowing and being able to do something about that, two different things entirely.
How many times in history have intelligence officers set a trap for the enemy to determine the accuracy of information – Midway is a great example of this, or how about the Battle of the Bulge (Germany – lack of petrol to run their tanks)?
Just remember what Churchill once stated – “In war truth is so important that she must be surrounded by handmaidens of lies”.
Hanse Davion is considered to be the greatest warlord of his age – he would most certainly devised a trap for the DCMS ghost units to determine the level of their supplies to keep their Star League Mechs operational. If discovered ComStar was keeping the Ghost units on a short leash he would have rallied his troops and counterattacked and then ensured these units were blockaded with regards to supplies. Thus unless they (Ghost Units) retreated they would have been all but destroyed
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (12/14/19 04:22 AM)
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ghostrider
12/14/19 11:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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Timeline of recovered tech might cover part of the other components. Endosteel, Ferrous armor, double sinks and such. I don't know when those came out, but it is possible they were being produced at the time.
Yeah, too lazy to look it up right now.
Thus "NO!" I do not believe “All houses seem to be able to make parts for any ‘Mech they get, with a little time to research them”. This statement is a complete fallacy as at 3039.
Then how do the houses maintain units from other nations? Salvaging parts only does so much.
The ability to weld isn't restricted to just one mech and such. A lot of repairs is similar enough to get done without needing to specialize in fixing them. Manufacturing them would need more specifics, but not so much repairs. A mechanic that works for Ford, could well work on Chevy, and VW. Only some very specific things would need the specific training. So to equate in battletech, a PPC in the Panther, works the same general way as the ones in a Marauder or Warhammer. Mounting brackets and where it connects to power and cooling lines would be different. But not impossible to figure out.
If this was true then why was it so difficult to obtain spare parts?
The lack of thousands of parts produced to begin with? The inability to instantaneously move parts to where it was needed? Even stockpiling those parts in other locations, leaving a shortage in more then a few areas. As suggested in the House Kurita books, they only produce so many different things and have to retool in order to make other parts? This is NOT like shipping parts from one country to another, but across solar systems and light years. One example is the Hatchetman. The DC got a hold of a few of them and started working on it. So newer models had explosives and such to avoid them learning how to do it.
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ghostrider
12/14/19 12:03 PM
66.74.60.165
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I guess the point that the ghost regiments were not part of the normal chain of command for the DC, and the fact that you had to be Yakuza to even attempt to gain information from that is missing. So normal intel wouldn't be able to get that information as readily as they did normal line units. And don't even think you would get an agent in with the units, unless they were Yakuza, which isn't likely at all.
How many times in history have intelligence officers set a trap for the enemy to determine the accuracy of information – Midway is a great example of this, or how about the Battle of the Bulge (Germany – lack of petrol to run their tanks)?
How many times has the enemy had multiple star systems and light years between you and them?
Interesting as this is almost opposite of the defense of knowing what units are where, and how many are stationed on a world, as done in other threads. Even this one, it is argued that they would know where all the ghost regiments were and set traps, but that the same intel couldn't find out where the mechs came from?
It was pretty obvious that the FS/FC intel didn't know about the ghost regiments. Otherwise, the 3039 war would have turned out differently.
Now one more thing about history that seems to be missing. How many units are formed after a war starts?
Units thrown together out of those that could not join, or tossed out of other units, put into those new units? Just having a company of mechs show up on a secured world would be more then enough to disrupt supplies. Even throw the LC social generals for a loop.
The DC did this during a rebuilding phase during one of the succession wars against the FS.
Oh yeah. Temporarily changing unit names is another thing.
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Karagin
12/14/19 02:24 PM
72.176.171.47
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Have you read Heir to the Dragon? A lot of your points are actually in that book and they get discussed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
12/14/19 06:29 PM
1.158.182.82
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First, The Yakuza … do they have enough techs for all the Ghost Regiments and do they have the knowledge to work on SLDF era ‘Mechs? …. Doubtful, so they will need to supplement their ranks not only with individuals from the DCMS, but they will also need ComStar adepts ….
Quote: Then how do the houses maintain units from other nations? Salvaging parts only does so much.
Salvage / Cannibalization / Black Market / Jerry-Rigging – show me a quote which shows any house was able to manufacture any part required for any ‘Mech. I cannot remember anywhere where this was written. As for re-tooling for specialized parts …. very expensive and very complex to initiate and complete. Circa 3039 there was a lack of spare parts …. It isn’t until 3050 onwards does the game’s spare parts issue begin to disappear.
Quote: mechanic that works for Ford, could well work on Chevy, and VW.
Basic work, yes I would agree – in the past a mechanic could work upon any vehicle due to its similarities. However, advanced work upon vehicles created recently - not so much – look at all the advanced equipment and training required to work upon a modern vehicle with all of its computerized equipment. Many of the newer vehicles require it to be returned to the dealer for specialized repair and maintenance. Same with a ‘Mech – within the military technical, science and technology skills within the defense industry require training from their respective military industrial complex and to maintain and provide services to support the Defense Force.
Quote: How many times has the enemy had multiple star systems and light years between you and them?
During the 3039 war when the Ghost units are used Hanse knows exactly where they are. This is where he would send a message through an encrypted Black Box communication – the trap will be set and initiated – as for not fining out where the ‘Mechs came from – you can guess they came from the Com Guard – both Kell and Hanse should have worked this out – Kell from what he learnt upon Terra during Hanse’s Wedding and Hanse from his own intelligence.
Once they know Comstar is supporting the DC – and the possibility of limited supplies for these Star League era ‘Mechs – they could have planned a counterattack strategy. The FS is a highly professional military – they should have been able to assist the LA, despite their social generals.
Karagin, yes I have read Heir to the Dragon – however I cannot remember anything within this book that discussed the Ghost regiment's repair and supply requirements. Can you please elaborate.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (12/14/19 08:07 PM)
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ghostrider
12/14/19 11:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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I read the book, but wasn't sure which one it was. Last time I read them was years ago.
Many of the newer vehicles require it to be returned to the dealer for specialized repair and maintenance.
A lot of this is because of warrantees. A 5 year hold on after market parts is normally in effect, so only the manufacturer authorized dealers can get those parts.
During the 3039 war when the Ghost units are used Hanse knows exactly where they are.
In canon, this is incorrect. The reason Hanse pulled the units from the fight is the fact they didn't know about the ghost regiments. He didn't have much of a clue on how many, or what they could do. They hit his worlds, and he did not have the reinforcements to trap the regiments as you suggest. This also is in part, due to using commercial jumpships that the yakuza had or was able to pressure into moving the units.
The black box was not the end all for intel. As it moved slower then HPG, and not all had the ability to use, or even receive such messages, seems to be missing. A few were actually taken and copied by the DC at this time. So false messages were very possible.
Once they know Comstar is supporting the DC – and the possibility of limited supplies for these Star League era ‘Mechs – they could have planned a counterattack strategy.
Still using the numbers game to argue points. Comstar had more pull with the IS then Hanse did. They had more pull then the FS government on a lot of back worlds in the FS. They basically hurt the FS during the fourth war, and could very well do it if the FS even tried to hit comstar's depots. The DC's is only a little more likely, but if comstar had those parts on THEIR property, any strikes would start another interdiction. The LC portion still wasn't the zealous loyal people and even some in the FS would rise up to cause issues, as they would try to seize power. In 3039, the Skye region would have went back into a revolt, causing even more issues. Which is part of why Hanse didn't have the forces to do much to the counter attack from the DC.
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Requiem
12/15/19 04:54 AM
1.158.182.82
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Quote: The reason Hanse pulled the units from the fight is the fact they didn't know about the ghost regiments. He didn't have much of a clue on how many, or what they could do.
When the FC forces are engaging the Ghost units in battle – yes he does know where they are!
Quote: he did not have the reinforcements to trap the regiments as you suggest.
I disagree - with the FC TO&E is over 270 ‘Mech Regiments, yes they could have sent in reinforcements,
Black Box
Only one went missing – though the FC thought it destroyed at the time – it would not be until the Clans were going to invade Lutherin did it become known to the FC that the DC obtained one. They were not able to utilize it for years after the war of 3039 – so NO false messages were impossible by the DC – also remember the messages would not be in the clear, they would be encrypted (just in case Comstar could pick them up) – also if they (DC) did use it then the FC would know they had it in 3039 – thus more encriptions etc would be used and it would be even harder for the DC to decrypt messages (refer Bletchley House WW2 – enigma for why the DC would never use it in 3039)
If the signal was over a short distance then yes reinforcements are available to the FC forces on the front line.
Quote: Comstar had more pull with the IS then Hanse did.
More pull in a war? Does this mean ComStar’s Guard units will join the DC in Battle? Sorry but there is no way this will happen!
Remember at this time the FC’s spies are engaged in a shadow war with ComStars Spies.
If concrete evidence is obtained ComStar is providing the DC with ‘Mechs how will FC (FS and LC) react? They could let all the worlds know via the pony express – how could ComStar survive if the FC nationalize their HPGs if they threaten a second interdiction? Hanse could have done it!
As for Sky – remember Lestrade is dead by Clovis so the free Sky movement was a non issue circa 3039
However, let us get back on track – the Ghost Units Techs
They didn’t have enough yakuza techs – thus they had to be supplemented with both DCMS and ComStar Techs to keep the Star Leage era Mechs functional - what if these Techs were captured by the FC and interrogated – what if some of them cracked and let the FC know they were ComStar.
Logic dictates that the Ghost units had to have ComStar Techs to keep them functional as well as ComStar spare parts (there is no way they could manufacture these parts in such a small period of time)! And again we have the game developers jumping over this point just to keep this badly written story moving forward.
Another issue is the FS militaries professionalism – even if confronted with a new type of ‘Mech I doubt they would have cut and run – haven’t all houses from time to time discovered Star League vaults – so why the big shock? Wouldn't it be more likely these FS troops would have designated these new ‘Mechs as a primary target for capture – so that they could be returned to NAIS for analysis. To me this is the more logical response by FS MechWarriors to new ‘Mechs on the Battlefield!
Again another error by the game developers in writing a sub par story.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
12/15/19 08:57 AM
72.176.171.47
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There is a part in there where Theodore makes mention of how they will keep the mechs up and running, and he is told that arrangements have been made and that with mistakes by ComStar certain things will go to helping the Combine add advances to their power.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/15/19 09:00 AM
72.176.171.47
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Also, keep in mind that the Ghost Regiments were a stopgap, they were used to give a temporary boost to the DCMS. They became a bit more perment afterward, but originally they were not a set fixture.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
12/15/19 12:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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I disagree - with the FC TO&E is over 270 ‘Mech Regiments, yes they could have sent in reinforcements,
Where would they have pulled them from? To reinforce areas being hit by anything requires time, even after the help cry is heard. Anything close to the front line meant leaving even more world vulnerable to attack. And more worlds had to have garrisons at this time, such as the Skye Federation. So more troops locked into place. Numbers of units is not going to magically give you reinforcements. And the number of ships available is an issue, though this is still not confirmed.
If the signal was over a short distance then yes reinforcements are available to the FC forces on the front line.
So the reinforcements from the Capellan or Cruisis marches would get there when? In a few months? And that is IF you can actually get them moving, as there would not be a command circuit or maybe even having them ready to move out.
Or did Hanse have the WOB super jumpships?
More pull in a war?
Pull means social pull with the populace. Some worlds, as stated in the books, suggest comstar was more popular then even religions on some worlds. So they could do what they did in the 4th war. Start forming resentment, and eventually civil unrest that would require troops to be stationed on more worlds.
They could let all the worlds know via the pony express – how could ComStar survive if the FC nationalize their HPGs if they threaten a second interdiction? Hanse could have done it!
Again. Number of ships. Canon suggest low numbers. Also. Who would rung the HPGs if they were successful in taking them? Comstar is the only ones that were supposed to know how to run them. And that isn't even lining them up to send a signal, but to actually program them to even begin to work. They would not leave them open to any that could just walk in and use them. And any sort of repairs...
even if confronted with a new type of ‘Mech I doubt they would have cut and run – haven’t all houses from time to time discovered Star League vaults – so why the big shock?
One of the novels touches on the new units they faced, and it came down to the new units allowed the DC forces to destroy a lot of the attacking forces, then followed them to their bases, and proceeded to destroy even more. So yes. FS forces did run. They had orders to retreat, as the FC command did not want to have them destroyed.
As for Star League caches, you are not talking even a regiments worth of units, much less 12. And this is a big hole in the game development, as they did NOT deal with it until 2750 came out. There were NO advanced tech units found in those caches that were used that showed up in the story lines.
And one last thing with this. Who would know how to fix those units, as the IS still wasn't to well trained with the new techs coming out. Endosteel? You had as much as was in the base, and that might not have been any. All advanced weapons would be something even the best of techs might not be able to fix.
As stated before. Those unit found would not be something you can just jump into, and get into battle. They had to have work done to them before hand. Simple fluids would be enough to stop them from being used.
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Karagin
12/15/19 04:24 PM
72.176.171.47
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Also, note that the War of 3039 was defensive for the DCMS and House Kurita for the most part, so they didn't have massive supply lines etc...and final note to consider, it was a way to bring new tech into the game in prep for the next big event.
A real-world bit of info to keep in mind, the technology most militarys use is really high tech, but the stuff to repair and maintain it is not, prime example, 70s and 80s tech is keeping the cool wonder tech of the 90s and 00s up and running.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
12/15/19 06:25 PM
1.158.182.82
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Karagin,
Quote: “how they will keep the mechs up and running, and he is told that arrangements have been made…”
Chapter and page number and quote from the book please
Quote: Ghost Regiments were a stopgap
Then why provide a stopgap unit with the most advanced Star League era ‘Mechs? – if they were to be just a stopgap then when providing them with these ‘Mechs is a greater loss of face to the Sword of Light Units and their Generals? They would have argued that a stopgap unit (especially yakuza who are considered to be on the lowest rung of the social ladder) should never be allowed these advanced weapons systems – If Theodore persists in this decision he will shame these units and their Generals (so expect an assassination attempt!)
So, sorry but I cannot see this …. The Ghosts were always going to be a permanent unit otherwise the comparison between the DCMS and the FC military becomes too great for the DCMS to survive a long term war – ie. The DCMS would have to kill FC at a 3 to 1 ratio to win! Can’t see this occurring circa 3040 onwards.
Ghostrider,
Quote: Where would they have pulled them from?
Let’s start a 5th Succession War then!– the war of 3039 was no-where near on the level of the 4SW – the FWL were having problems and the CC where on the verge of falling over – thus units could be moved via a command circuit to the front such as some of those garrisoned within / near the Terran corridor upon the FWL border could have been activated.
There is no way Hanse would have gone into the war of 3039 without ensuring he has adequate reserves – this is just not done! – they would have been there in the case of unforeseen resistance or to punch an even larger hole into the DCMS in the event an opportunity arises to take a vital and unprotected area within the DC due to it being lightly protected. No ome goes into a war of this scope without having a reserve force!
He could have even opened a second or third front to divert DCMS assets – threaten one or more important worlds – important military supply worlds . Remember the DCMS does not have the resources the FC has this could have been enaced.
As for ships – compare the number that is used in the 4SW to the war of 3039 – in 3039 they would only be using a third (at a maximum) – and how many did they get from the CC when they conquered half of their realm or did the CC keep all their jump-ships? - so this again is not an issue.
Quote: Pull means social pull with the populace. Some worlds, as stated in the books, suggest comstar was more popular then even religions on some worlds.
And if you keep reading it states these worlds were on the periphery border in the back of whop-whop. They are not the important worlds such as New Avalon etc.
Disagree as the numbers – also sooner or later a black box should be upon every regional capitol world and with every important military unit – dissemination of information may take time but it will get through.
Also – do you believe that when the FS were interdicted during the 4SW and when the FC’s spies went to war with ComStar’s spies he hadn’t put in place a hidden training program so that in worse case scenario he could nationize the HPG grid is a little unbelievable – there would have been a plan in place as well as the people in place if it became necessary to do so. Hope for the best plan for the worst!
Quote: the new units they faced, and it came down to the new units allowed the DC forces to destroy a lot of the attacking forces, then followed them to their bases, and proceeded to destroy even more.
One isolated case does not mean all will share the same fate! One tactical retreat does not mean all should retreat! This is a complete misnomer – again we see the writers interfering / playing favorites – so no all the units should not have cut and run – only those that found themselves in a poor tactical problem would have!
Quote: there were NO advanced tech
And what about those found by Snord’s Irregulars – what about the Dragoons how many did they find on Outreach? – What aout the hidden Mech Plant Norse-Storm BattleMechs Inc discovered in 3034 …. What about the Helm Memory core discovered in 3028? It was a race by all houses (except the CC) to break into this so …..?
Also what about the ComGuards - As a condition of lifting the Interdiction, she (Myndo Waterly) convinced the Federated Suns to allow Com Guard garrison on all Federation worlds with an HPG station (starting 3030) and this ended up with every House. So their Star League era Mechs would have been on display – so surely the FC would have planned for a war with ComStar within their BattleMech Training Capsules – so no the surprise of the DC having them in 3039 would not have been that great – the FC troops would have been prepared to fight these models.
Quote: As stated before. Those unit found would not be something you can just jump into, and get into battle. They had to have work done to them before hand. Simple fluids would be enough to stop them from being used.
And you believe Theodore would have accepted sub-par ‘Mechs for the FRR? Doubtful, the weapons and electronics were gone but they would have been combat ready when they came out of the ComStar DropShip, otherwise this deal between the DC and ComStar becomes a ludicrous.
Also every Technician in every army goes through training about every vehicle they will be required to work on. There must have been some ComStar training / assistance when it came to these new ‘Mechs to believe otherwise is also ludicrous.
Karagin,
If the DCMS didn’t have massive supply lines how could they sustain a protracted war by the FC?
Just bringing in new tech for the next war – sorry but this doesn’t hold water – if this is the case then they should have brought in the idea of IS omni Tech as well as warships as well as power armor (even those from the Star League era) etc. should have been brought into the game for the next game “the Clans Invasion”.
To get the overarching story correct you must ensure all the little details are also correct – otherwise there is a massive plot hole – and again we have another – the DCMS must have had a service and parts contract with ComStar to keep these Star League era ‘Mechs operational – so how did they keep this secret from the FS and the LC spies and were ComStar Techs on the battlefield during the 3039 war (help repair battle damage) and what if they were captured and interrogated – what then?
There is a massive plot hole here! And it has never been explained fully ….. this is the problem – there is a massive story but many of the details that underpin them are completely non-existent.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
12/15/19 06:40 PM
72.176.171.47
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Quote:
Karagin,
Quote: “how they will keep the mechs up and running, and he is told that arrangements have been made…”
Chapter and page number and quote from the book please
READ THE BOOK. I am going off of memory, it would be better if you READ the book again.
As for the rest, it was all stated in the same said novel that they (ComStar) left a few things to end up in the hands of the DCMS because the Primus of Deirin was a Kurtia Agent, she did whatever she had to do to make it so higher tech items were there for her nation.
Recall if you would, the Fed-Com was the bigger threat and given that the Helm Memory Core was hitting the scene on top of things like the Fed-Sins prior to the 4th War had been working on DHS and other tech. This can be found in Wolves on the Border opening chapter.
The 20 Year Update sourcebook gives info on things as well.
The idea that ComStar was willing to give the Combine aid, was a key point in the issues and such between the Fed-Com and ComStar, it was also a way for them to get back at Hanse for using and spreading the "fax" machine technology.
Noting is cut and dry as you want it to be, the reason and the push for the different factions are not always going to make sense, hell they don't in real life, so really the Combine didn't get earth-shattering tech, they got a few advanced items, which helped them jumpstart their return to a higher military and civilian tech level. Which was what the other nations were doing as well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/15/19 06:50 PM
72.176.171.47
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If you have the ORIGINAL 3050 Tech Readout, you will find a paragraph that states the Inner Sphere can build Clan level tech, to include Omnimechs. However, the COST of doing so was something that none of the nations were willing to spend. Again real-world analogy here for you, look at all the nations that break themselves trying to field the latest thing, and then they find out that a guy with a single weapon in a rice field can break their cool toys or counter them with low tech stuff.
Clan tech and SL tech is cool, but it is not the break all or end-all. You can beat a Clan or SL force with just mechs from the 3025 Tech Readout, so for the game that is damn near low tech. I am willing to bet that you even take the "new" primitive mechs and do the same.
And Yes, the Ghost Regiments were a stop-gap, they allowed the Combine to field more units to stop the invasion and to keep the Fed-Com guessing as to how large and how well equipped their forces were. It's not an unheard-of thing to do. The Allies did it as part of the Overlord Operation in WW2, and it's a very common practice in warfare.
You are literally thinking in the box and not looking outside of it. The folks working the game didn't want to wipe out one or more of the Houses, there was nothing logical stopping the Fed-Suns from crushing the Cappellans other than the writers not wanting it to happen. Same here for the War of 3039, it was a check on the Fed-Com and a chance to further the events in the Inner Sphere so folks would digest the new tech from the 2750 TRO, and to give them (the writers) time to get their next big thing in order.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/15/19 07:27 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
You are literally thinking in the box and not looking outside of it. The folks working the game didn't want to wipe out one or more of the Houses, there was nothing logical stopping the Fed-Suns from crushing the Cappellans other than the writers not wanting it to happen. Same here for the War of 3039, it was a check on the Fed-Com and a chance to further the events in the Inner Sphere so folks would digest the new tech from the 2750 TRO, and to give them (the writers) time to get their next big thing in order.
Nicely made point, Karagin.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
12/15/19 09:45 PM
1.158.182.82
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Going off memory has its problems with regards to accuracy …
Chapter 55 Page 298 Heir to the Dragon – Theodore talking to Myndo – “What about the crippled Battlemechs, Aerospace fighters, and tanks you send? My understanding was that the Combine would receive Star League-vintage equipment. You were quite explicit about that. I didn’t expect refitted shells”
The book doesn’t contain information regarding spare parts and the training of techs to service / repair Star League-vintage machines. (Big surprise there!)
Yes the costs of producing Omni Mechs in 3050 is extremely high. However by 3070 this cost increase should be reduced to practically nil when compared to making a new ‘Mech design – this is economics and technological advancement!
In a world war (as in a succession war) conscription is required to establish as many new units as possible to achieve your political and strategic goals, and thus this necessitates the establishment of new units until the end of the war – where during peace time units can be retired and the number of active units is reduced to that number the politicians will be willing to pay for.
However, within the Battletech Universe you do not have the same situation as the war has been ongoing for hundreds of years and no house has yet to introduce a nationwide conscription program as was done during world war 2. Thus comparing DC and that of the Allies during Overlord is a misnomer.
Quote:
You are literally thinking in the box and not looking outside of it. The folks working the game didn't want to wipe out one or more of the Houses, there was nothing logical stopping the Fed-Suns from crushing the Cappellans other than the writers not wanting it to happen. Same here for the War of 3039, it was a check on the Fed-Com and a chance to further the events in the Inner Sphere so folks would digest the new tech from the 2750 TRO, and to give them (the writers) time to get their next big thing in order.
Think carefully about this statement – does real life follow this statement / should any game / book / TV show follow this statement? ALSO how would you feel if this scenario was applied elsewhere to other games / TV Series / Computer Games etc ….
As a consumer of the game how did you feel when the writers took a carte blanche approach to the history just to satisfy their desire for “the next big thing”?
Did you believe as I did the writers betrayed the story, betrayed the characters, betrayed the essence of the game for their own whim …?
Up to 3039 the story was logical the characters and the story was progressing logically – however when the game designers betray their creation, as they did here, then what?
Can you believe in the reality of the Clans Invasion? How about the Jihad era and what about the fall of the HPG grid has it gotten any more believable? Sorry, but there are just too many instances throughout the game where it looses the plot just because the writers want to get to their next big thing.
In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/16/19 01:50 AM
66.74.60.165
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Then why provide a stopgap unit with the most advanced Star League era ‘Mechs?
How many of the mechs provided were the most advanced? Since all high tech weapons and electronics were stripped from those mechs, suggesting it was the most advanced doesn't work. Also, this is assuming all the mechs provided were from something like the royal guard.
Let’s start a 5th Succession War then!–
How about we just send super jumpships and just nuke the worlds? Not every war has to be all out. The first succession war was one of those and it didn't solve much. Raids tended to open up opportunities to take worlds.
There is no way Hanse would have gone into the war of 3039 without ensuring he has adequate reserves
How about he did have adequate reserves for what he THOUGHT was going to be engaged. He had to send those reserves to counter the counter attack on his worlds.
Also, Hanse DID have a second front that was supposed to take some of the forces away from his border. I guess forgetting the LC did have their forces attacking, though the bs of their top brass being eliminated destroyed that. So this one is done.
One tactical retreat does not mean all should retreat
Again. Read the actual writing on the war. It wasn't one retreat. It wasn't just one unit. It turned out to be almost every one involved in the war. The extra forces as well as the counter invasion stopped it.
There were NO advanced tech units found in those caches that were used that showed up in the story lines.
Read the whole sentence. The caches found in a majority of the stories before 2750, didn't have the tech in them. So all those caches found, it was all old tech, which I find it stupid that the 'advanced' league mechs were the same ones used in 3025. You know. The ones that were done that way due to a lack of tech.
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ghostrider
12/16/19 02:12 AM
66.74.60.165
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So their Star League era Mechs would have been on display
Again. How many were the odd mechs? How many were just normal mechs that had advanced equipment pulled? No where in there does it say the Highlander as well as other mechs like that were the majority of those used. A simple Locust made during the League is a Star League mech. Oh. No printed numbers on this one.
Those unit found would not be something you can just jump into, and get into battle. They had to have work done to them before hand. Simple fluids would be enough to stop them from being used.
And you believe Theodore would have accepted sub-par ‘Mechs for the FRR?
How did you get this from the word FOUND?
And if you keep reading it states these worlds were on the periphery border in the back of whop-whop. They are not the important worlds such as New Avalon etc.
So concentrated weakness here? The back water worlds needed protection, with some needing more then New Avalon. Ignoring them leads to full out civil war, and some of the major worlds would back them as well. It is those worlds that provide the things needed on the major worlds, and also tend to be a buffer. How many backwater worlds are there compared to the major ones?
In a world war (as in a succession war) conscription is required to establish as many new units as possible to achieve your political and strategic goals, and thus this necessitates the establishment of new units until the end of the war
In a world war. A single world with the nations on it having to fight to keep their lands. Not a multi solar system fight. Conscription was needed when being invaded, as it meant pain to all if the invaders won. You have units that you can hopefully move from other worlds to increase the size of one worlds forces, or even hit the enemy, and get them to retreat. Volenteers would be more then enough it the inter stellar war. All that apply to become a soldier in peace time, are not always accepted. So opening up for new recruits might well bring in those that got told you didn't make the cut the first time.
Think carefully about this statement – does real life follow this statement / should any game / book / TV show follow this statement? ALSO how would you feel if this scenario was applied elsewhere to other games / TV Series / Computer Games etc
This is simple. If you don't like the way the game is going, you stop supporting it. Most of the time, you completely stop playing it. Any game will follow those ideas of the people that own the rights to it. Sometimes they listen to their player base, sometimes they do what ever they want.
Up to 3039 the story was logical the characters and the story was progressing logically
No. The game started drifting before this. Hell, you said it went off the rails yourself. Or did the invasion of the CC threads were written just to start arguments? Changing the way things were done, started the whole issue, and it got worse as they story line went on.
One big example is nukes. Some of those being invaded would have used what ever they could to avoid being taken over by a hated enemy, or attack them on their worlds with it. That is human nature. Just a simple militia getting into the store houses would have this happen.
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Requiem
12/16/19 05:00 AM
1.158.182.82
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ComGuard on Garrison Duty throughout the FS and then throughout the IS
Unfortunately (as far as I know) there are no records as to the units assigned and the equipment each unit maintained. It is not until Tukayyid is there a, ‘minimum’ degree, of information available. So go backwards from then in an attempt to work it out?
Again there is no information to resolve this!
Quote: It wasn't just one unit. It turned out to be almost every-one involved in the war.
And again we see the writers “getting to the next big thing”, unrealistic …. When the new Panzer or king Tiger was introduced (WW2) do you see whole units continually running away? Especially when elite Davion units are contested against green yakuza?
Dispel belief once more …..to get to the next big thing!
Quote: Found
Read above again – “came out of a Dropship”
Quote: Back water worlds
Really?
Quote: Conscription
Where is the proof that any House started a conscription program upon every world?
Quote: This is simple. If you don't like the way the game is going, you stop supporting it.
Or you create your own history, ignore the canon history, and have fun with your own game and just laugh at all the mistakes and the unbelievable.
Quote: Hell, you said it went off the rails yourself.
Yes I did, starting at 3039 or just prior to this, with the problems in the Isle of Sky – there should have been an invasion to kill off the CC and not the diatribe with the DC.
Question – at the same time ComStar was assisting the DC should they also have been assisting the CC? There is no way ComStar could have guesses that the DC was the next target – on the basis of probability as to whom Hanse hated more the DC or the CC I would have put money down on the CC, as stated before killing them off would have provided the FC the strategic and tactical ability to kill off the DC in the future. If you wanted to lay a trap for the FC – ComStar would have had to arm both the DC and the CC not just the DC.
Otherwise as the story stands it suggests that ComStar knew for a fact that the DC was the next target – so how did they know this then?
And from then on the stories get worse and worse as they become more and more unbelievable / unrealistic as time went on.
The entire Clan invasion;
The entire Jihad; and
The entire HPG network failure.
Just to name a few
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
12/16/19 12:23 PM
72.176.171.47
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Heir to Dragon mentions a couple of mechs by name, one being a Kintaro. The point of this is that the Combine needed the help; they had already lost a lot of forces. With the mismanaged fighting during the 4th War and the focus on the Dragoons vs. actually doing something to take on the Suns and the Commonwealth, so ComStar knew this, via leaked info by Kurtia double agent and from their own ROM sources.
Was it the best plotline? Maybe, was it the worse we have seen? Nope.
Here is the thing, if you don't like the canon history, then ignore it. Nothing in Battletech says you have to follow the canon timeline or anything like that. That is one of the fun things about this game system.
I dislike the entire Jihad/Dark Age storyline, everyone on here knows that, so I chose to rework it to my liking, nothing too crazy, just less silliness and overreach more exciting twists. And in the end, I still get to have a new Terran group, and the Houses still doing what they do. My friends are more than happy to play even with a fresh take since we are blasting mechs. Again, if you don't like things, either ignore them and focus on what you do like, change them for your taste/group or pick a different game system and have fun, which is the key for all of this.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/16/19 12:27 PM
72.176.171.47
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Quote:
Going off memory has its problems with regards to accuracy …
At least I am in the ballpark not outside of it. You have several major sources from the canon setting, Heir to the Dragon, 20 Year Update, along with other mentions of the War of 3039 in other books. You don't like the idea of ComStar readily and easily handing out mechs, cool we got that part. Thing is it is not insane or odd or unheard of.
Davion gave the Outworlds Alliance an entire regiment or so of mechs to fight the SLDF, the ROTS has given the Fed-Suns several regiments of mechs to save their bacon in the current setting. So it's not an uncommon thing in the Inner Sphere for one side to fund their enemies enemy, that old an enemy of my enemy is a friend maxim.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
12/16/19 12:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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When the new Panzer or king Tiger was introduced (WW2) do you see whole units continually running away?
Did communities run from the German army? Or was it from the SS? Or maybe war in general has people running, and you can't suggest it was from a single weapon of war.
Quote: there were NO advanced tech
And what about those found by Snord’s Irregulars – what about the Dragoons how many did they find on Outreach? – What aout the hidden Mech Plant Norse-Storm BattleMechs Inc discovered in 3034 …. What about the Helm Memory core discovered in 3028? It was a race by all houses (except the CC) to break into this so …..?
Quote: Found
Read above again – “came out of a Dropship”
I know my sight isn't great, but I do not see the word Dropship in this statement.
Or you create your own history, ignore the canon history, and have fun with your own game and just laugh at all the mistakes and the unbelievable.
There is a difference in playing an alt, and saying the entire history of a game is wrong and suggesting the 'only possible solution' to fix it. Take the movie the X-men. The fact that the actors did not match the comic books didn't make the movie bad. It did bother me a little, but then it was for entertainment. Wolverine was smaller then Storm in the comics. And other things comes up like his claws. They fit inside his forearm. When extended, they are much longer then that. Physics fail.
The Transformers movies. Except Bumblebee, the decepticons were not keeping with the designs in the cartoon. Did that mean the movie has to be rewritten?
The story line from the expansion of humanity is where things start to stray, and only got worse from there. Nothing huge, but enough to question it.
As this thread and others is not suggesting a different look, but demanding they be implemented is where this runs circular in logic. You ask how this is, and get told from the games books, and it isn't right. I don't disagree with all of what is brought up. I do agree that from the looks of it, there is information missing from some of the statements.
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ghostrider
12/16/19 12:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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Question – at the same time ComStar was assisting the DC should they also have been assisting the CC? There is no way ComStar could have guesses that the DC was the next target – on the basis of probability as to whom Hanse hated more the DC or the CC I would have put money down on the CC, as stated before killing them off would have provided the FC the strategic and tactical ability to kill off the DC in the future. If you wanted to lay a trap for the FC – ComStar would have had to arm both the DC and the CC not just the DC.
Again. The real lack of tactics is showing thru. A buffer state, that would keep the FWL off the FS border was done. I haven't seen much to suggest the CC was hated more then the DC by Hanse, though Hanse did suggest he wanted to see Luthien dead during the clan invasion. According to the info in the 4th war source books, Hanse wanted to get rid of the mole that allowed the CC to hit their worlds and damage them. It wasn't so much to destroy the CC outright. Now with this said, I do think it should have been done more thoroughly. Capella and it's ship yards, should have been hit hard, or even taken. But that stops future plans for the CC.
Otherwise as the story stands it suggests that ComStar knew for a fact that the DC was the next target – so how did they know this then?
Start off the fact of their little wargames.. Second, Takashi was the only person in the IS that Hanse thought was worth fighting. The CC had shown they weren't up to defending their own worlds, and yes, this is adding in the fact they were severely undergunned. The combine was better then the LC at fighting. If he could bring them to heel, he would have been known as the master tactician.
You don't like the idea of ComStar readily and easily handing out mechs, cool we got that part.
This has given me the thought that Comstar knew if the DC fell, Hanse would definitely hit Comstar, to remove them for not only the interdiction, but to make sure they were not working against him. Think of it like sending troops to other countries, in order to stop the 'enemy' from gaining those lands and shrinking your buffer zones. Proxy wars is what I think they are called.
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Requiem
12/16/19 05:30 PM
1.158.182.82
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The CC has lost half of its empire, as per the 20 year update they only have 30 Regiments (I still say 26) with many of these being mercenaries.
So who was worse off?
Heir ot the Dragon – When Theodore was talking to Myndo in the park – it was also suggested that ComStar wanted to keep the status quo (and thwart the FC’s ability to become the First Lord) with regards to the number of states available. If this is believable how, when they didn’t assist the CC with military assistance?
Or are we to assume they had written off the CC and decided to replace them with the FRR?
There is a clear problem / issue here with regards to the stories plotline – ComStar (Myndo) wants her plans to succeeded – and yet only the DC receive assistance? This doesn’t make sense when the CC is the weakest and most easily conquered state as at 3039. If you want to keep all the states then the CC must receive assistance also at the same time.
Also if the FC decides not to give up their half of the FRR who is going to force their hand? Also if the FC decide to invade and conquer the other half of the FRR would the DC also invade at the same time? Plot-hole again!
Quote: You don't like the idea of ComStar readily and easily handing out mechs, cool we got that part. Thing is it is not insane or odd or unheard of.
If ComStar is going to hand out ‘Mechs, Tanks and Fighters to the DC – then why didn’t they also supply forces to the CC at the same time? Also where does all the spare parts and training required to service / maintain these vehicles come from?
Yes, one state will assist another state when it is in their interests to do so. However if the plot is to keep the same amount of states and the CC is just about to fall over then your plot must be carried to its logical conclusion – assist all weakened that are fighting your main enemy not just one!
Panzer and King Tiger - Are Allied tank units allowed to cut and run when they see a new Panzer or King Tiger for the first time or are they required to hold their ground? What would Patton (old blood and guts) order his troops to do? My bet is that he would order his units to hold their ground and fight!
Quote: there were NO advanced tech – if Snord had’t hidden the ‘Mechs found within the Dropship then yes there would be!
Quote: Read above again – “came out of a Dropship” - I know my sight isn't great, but I do not see the word Dropship in this statement.
Read the paragraph beneath the original quote.
Missing information from the sourcebooks limits the users understanding of how things were achieved and how you could run games with the Battletech Universe.
Say you are running a 3039 setting game – you stand and fight against a Ghost unit – your side are able to get into the rear and capture one of their re-supply bases – taking parts and techs as prisoners of war. During a cursory investigation you find techs that are not DC citizens –these individuals are sent off for a more intense investigation – from which their identity as ComStar comes to light – then what’s next? Or do you just go with the cannon – they are just spare parts and they are just techs?
Which is more believable when ComStar has provided ‘Mechs, vehicles and Aerospace fighters? Wher e are their spare parts coming from and how are the DC Techs trained to work on these new models. If the plotline is where ComStar is assisting the DC then it MUST be taken to its logical conclusion and NOT just left hanging with just supplying the vehicles. The cannon plotline is lacking in its believability as is!
Can we agree on this point at least?
Quote: I haven't seen much to suggest the CC was hated more then the DC by Hanse,
First, The CC try to replace Hanse with a double – he is captured and found to have his mind wiped and replaced with Hanse’s CC personality. This action alone caused Hanse to detest Max and the CC.
Second, The name of the operation to kill of the CC – OPERATION RAT
Third, The communiqué Hanse sends to the CC (at the end of the Warrior Trilogy books) for the reason why he did what he did – talk about sticking the knife in and giving it a good twist! Upon viewing this Max went stark-raving mad thus allowing Romano to take over.
Sorry but it wasn’t just about getting rid of the mole – Duke Michael Hasek – Hanse even said if he came to him he would offer concessions and then put him on a short leash after publicly making his defection public as a trap they came up with to destroy the CC.
Quote: so how did they know this then?
War-games? Sorry but the FC have never been that obvious.
Quote: Takashi was the only person in the IS that Hanse thought was worth fighting
Actually this is backwards – Hanse was the only person in the IS Takashi thought worth fighting – quote comes from when Hanse Dies of a heart attack – he sends an envoy to the funeral with a Katana – he also regrets his loss as he was the one who would go straight for the neck thus requiring the best of Takashi every time they fought – which he enjoyed immeasurably!
Quote: You don't like the idea of ComStar readily and easily handing out mechs, cool we got that part.
Sorry No, what I don’t like is the idea that there is no information regarding spare parts and technical assistance and the idea that the FS would just cut and run when faced by these – especially when they are piloted by green Yakuza! This doesn’t make sense why would elite and veteran FS fall to green yakuza who have never been in combat before and have only received the most basic of training? There is no way they would have received any intense training as that received in an academy – they are the lowest social class – they are yakuza – no one within the higher military class would treat them with any respect!
Also the idea that ComStar would only assist the DC? What the????? If the First Circuit agreed to this then why didn’t the Canopus Primus pipe up and also request aid and then what about the FWL – if you help one then you need to consider helping others – or come up with a valid reason why you can’t!
Quote: This has given me the thought that Comstar knew if the DC fell, Hanse would definitely hit Comstar.
He wouldn’t need to …. With the fall of the DC and the CC he would become the First Lord in all but name … ComStar (if they still wanted to create their Blakean realm) would have to destroy this super realm from within as their forces are not on par even with SL weapons … they would have to create a new First Succession War to destroy everything so they could then ride out and make their Star League.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
12/16/19 06:33 PM
72.176.171.47
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We all agree that things don't make complete sense in regards to how things are explained away in the Battletech universe. We get it. Trust me, we do.
You are nitpicking things that won't change, period. What needs to happen is for you to contact the current LD and let him know about these issues to avoid them becoming the same said issues in the further story line/history points, cause I guarantee that these same issues are already there.
Also while your ideas for an alternate history are cool, it doesn't make them right or correct or the only way it could work out. You have made your points, folks will either agree or they won't.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
12/16/19 07:54 PM
1.158.182.82
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Forum – definition – noun – a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged – “… as a forum for debate”.
The problem is the overarching story lines – though interesting – completely lack minute detail and logic that turn an ordinary story into an epic. Have a look at Warhammer and their new series regarding the Horus Heresy as an example of how it is done correctly!
Unfortunately the Battletech writing policy has yet to change.
With the new Clan invasion is being manufactured will the invasion be corrected to reflect / fix all the issues I (and many others) that have pointed out previously? Or … will it be the same as before?
Can we finally have ….
An IS infantry weapon that can counter the clan’s elementals – such as a 50 cal sniper rifle using head shots?;
A change in tactics to attrition warfare – mass attacks by all types of IS vehicle battalions upon clan attack forces;
A logical and cultural response by the DC to Turtle Bay;
The idea of how 15 mechs and a small complement of elementals can hold a world for the clans;
Partisan attacks upon the clans using IEDs;
Going after the clans supply jump-ships in the IS and in the Deep Periphery;
A correct response by the IS to the Clans Naval assets – they are the biggest weapon on the block and must be taken out first (so how about pocket warships / putting naval weapons on drop-ships / large wing fighter attacks (including nukes?);
Introducing more IS omni-mechs until all houses have a massive complement of these ‘Mechs; and
What about the biggest issue? The Clans Sibkos – how can they ever hope to provide new troops to the front lines in such a number that are being killed off on mass upon the front line and by partisans (on garrison worlds). - ie. a correct loss depletion report by the clans and the IS - as per Crays previous post on this point a 10:1 or even 20:1 loss the clans still loose!
Just to name a few of their many small points that is never truly explained …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
12/16/19 09:04 PM
72.176.171.47
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Yes, we can debate, but all you are doing is telling us what you don't like and no matter what we say you continue down that path. We have given our input, you can either:
1) Make a whole new game that avoids all the pitfalls you are harping on
2) Ignore the things that are wonky in the game from crazy historical points to the game mechanics
3) Make your own setting to play in that uses what you want from the BT timeline and ignores things that annoy you
4) None of the above and continue on with your ideas are the only ideas we need to worry about.
So far it seems choice 4 is what you are going for. Also, this topic was originally about you not understanding or liking that ComStar chose to give the Combine mechs and tech to stop the Suns, now you are on to other topics and not happy that we, the other posters here at Sarna, aren't 100% agreeing with you and have wandered off into other areas that stray from the topic. Kind of hard to follow things when you do that.
Also your quote this or that, not really needed. You want to have a debate, cool, be ready for folks to disagree with you and tell you your ideas as silly, pointless, etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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