Requiem
01/29/20 12:10 AM
1.158.235.15
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No. But a fusion run vehicle doesn't build up heat. A moving mech does. Why?
My Assumption: Can only be the energy requirements, to move a vehicle you require very little energy (even at max. speed and over a long distance). Whereas to move a ‘Mech ….
Refer to the following ….
Sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology – sub heading Myomers – “…they have fairly high internal electrical resistance, which causes them to be roughly as wasteful of energy as natural muscle or internal combustion engines. Much of the energy required to activate a Myomer is simply converted into waste heat. Myomer bundles are laced with a network of flexible tubing carrying coolant fluids to and from the BattleMech's Heat Sink system to dispose of this waste heat.”
Question: what would happen if rather than developing a triple strength myomer you came up with a less resistant / less heat producing myomer. A myomer that could reduce the need for many of the Heat sinks required. Has anyone undertaken research into this?
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Did they change a nova to triad?
Under sarna.net wiki Trinary is where you find the term Triad – one star each ‘Mech, Elementals and Aerospace.
This is what I would assume would be the basic garrison force non-critical (important) worlds – such as agricultural / mining worlds – Worlds the Clans believe the lowest form of IS Caste workers reside, people who can be easily converted.
During the initial stages of the war – when you desperately require examples of their tech to examine / and to reverse engineer – why wouldn’t you send forces against these worlds (attacking their flank).
It has three main advantages for the House Unit …
First, It allows your scientists / engineers examples of Clan tech as well as the possibility of POWs for intelligence gathering;
Second, The Clan in question will have to send a relief force to take up the position of the Triad that has been taken out – this also means the available front line numbers decreases; and
Third, It sends a message to the people on the captured planet – we have not forgotten you – we are still fighting to free you! (increasing partisan activity).
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f I know right, you can challenge for any rank
This policy could very easily lead to anarchy – there must be additional rules that have yet to be published to ensure there is some form of sanity when it comes to making a challenge.
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bringing in the earlier scouts.
Yes they could have brought in earlier scouts. The issue is how do they remain incognito (what was their cover story)? And what information were they after? And which Houses were they to visit (Time taken within the IS)?
Plus considering the lack of Jumpships in the latter years how do you introduce a new Jumpship – registry of all know Jumpships would be known. … this could pose a problem ….
Plus, it wasn’t until the Clan Invasion did they transfer their HPG ships to form a relay from Clan Space to the IS – so no communication back to Clan space via HPG – all intelligence gathered would have to be physically transferred back to the Clan Home Worlds for analysis (6 months plus travel time).
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… whilst on intelligence gathering missions…
A thought also occurred to me – any unit that is being sent on an intelligence mission will be under the command (not Liaison if mercenary) of an intelligence officer. This could make for some interesting problems, especially if you draw the short end of the stick and end up with a real <censored> Officer who thinks they know everything and puts your unit in harms way.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/29/20 12:30 AM
66.74.60.165
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The suspension factor was supposed to deal with the easier movement. But again. The heat isn't based on how far you moved.
So a spider or locust builds up less heat then an Urbanmech. Length of leg doesn't have any effects on this, so moving the same amount of times with longer legs, does not make it faster.
And if it was true that the vehicles don't have as much energy needed to move it then a smaller fusion engine could be used.
Wouldn't the TSM be about the same thing? It needs heat, but it produces 3 times the power of a normal myomar. Not sure if speed is affected, but a lighter weight muscular system should be useful. I can see some research in this area have something come up.
Ok. They added aerofighter into the mix, making the triad.
The issues is getting away with the items to research. But this is one area that seems to be artificially kept out of the IS hands. They can refit a unit with Clan parts, but not make them. There was one thing that said the IS techs didn't have the training to work on them, so most of the units that had it, fell into disrepair and was non functional. I can believe that for a short while. Still sounds like bs like building the tech after 100 years.
The trial of Grievance can be declared against any one at any time. Most are not restricted by the high command. So refusal, possession and position aren't much different, though they are more limited by the high command. Most do retain some form of military respect, so only do so with position when they are authorized. But I believe you can do refusal or grievance if the high command lets you, against the denial of a position challenge. Most are to show you are ready for the high command to give you a better rank.
The issue with clan recon is who would do so? Trueborns would refuse as well as show up as arrogant people, that would bring attention to themselves. Freeborns wouldn't really be trusted so much. Training is another thing, as the invasion clans seem to be unable to do individual recon. The watch is a very good case showing that. The only thing I can think of is Clan Wolf is the only clan that seems capable of using such personnel. Identifying targets with in a few months of being in the IS, for the Dragoons bringing in the unit sounds wrong. It would require a lot more time to infiltrate some areas they got intel from. Other then that is the way it was written.
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Requiem
01/29/20 01:45 AM
1.158.235.15
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… vehicles don't have as much energy needed to move it, then a smaller fusion engine could be used.
Yes I agree vehicles should have a smaller engine requirement than that of ‘Mech.
Just remember to put something in that can run the energy requirements for the energy weapons, whist moving a flank speed.
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The issue is getting away with the items …
Our POA are these small clan outposts ….
They should not be “artificially” kept out of IS hands. Why? In the game there is a disparity between the IS and the Clans in regards to weapons technology. Small Objective Raids like this could have been used to allow players to obtain Clan Tech with a successful mission.
ie. remember the small adventure books that were produced way back in the early days - such as Snord’s Irregulars – something like this would make for an excellent small book adventure pack. And if you want to keep them functional – then why not add the chance of obtaining some Clan non-warriors who become your Isorla and agree to become part of “your Clan” – over time they could even come to realize the IS’s way of life is better and they want to help others leave the clans (Second book?)
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The trial of Grievance can be declared against any one at any time.
I agree position would require authorization to proceed – otherwise there would be anarchy within the ranks.
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The issue with clan recon is who would do so?
There is only one – Wolfnet would have to go – for an intelligence mission you need intelligence operatives ….
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….. Harvest Trials / Harvest Wars ….
Considering that I have shown there is major problem with regards to Clan garrisons and how they need additional infantry to adequately support garrison units, can I suggest sometime after the one year peace some of the Invading Clan’s Khans decide to initiate Harvest Trials upon Home Clans elementals as a means of rapidly increasing their strength. At the same time a massive increase in the number of elemental sibkos are have also been initiated to ensure the Clans can maintain a very high elemental population within the IS clans (far more than ever considered necessary).
What I am considering is something similar to what occurred in 3057 when Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon sought to rapidly regain their strength.
But in this case massive elemental numbers are required to ensure civil compliance upon IS worlds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
01/29/20 06:24 AM
1.158.235.15
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Can anyone say the Harvest wars are NOT favoritism to the Falcons and the Wolves? Here we have two clans that have badly mauled each other – and yet they are allowed to “Harvest” enough forces (men and material) so as to return to their original levels, and within a very short period of time, so as to make sure they can form their empires by 3150.
And yet when the Fed Suns and Lyrans have a Civil war at the same time, and are supposed to be as just as banged up as the Falcons / Wolves, they are not allowed / provided time to rebuild as was just “GIVEN TO” their pet clans.
So can anyone say this is not favoritism by TPTB for the Clans over the IS once more?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/29/20 12:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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Maybe an example might help for the Fusion engine thing.
A Shrek PPC carrier. To use the 3 ppcs, you need the 10 in the fusion engine, and 20 more.
Now. If the Shrek moves and fires it does NOT heat up one or two points depending on cruise/flank speed.30 heat for ppcs, not heat for moving unit. Strip that engine out of the PPC and put it in a mech, and just take one step. Already you produce one heat point.
Also, the engine gains 2 additional layers of protecting to it, as a single hit does not destroy it as it does in a vehicle.
Clan personnel becoming to like the IS, that they would rather stay and fight against their own. Hmmm.. Sounds a lot like the Wolfs Dragoons. But luxury and the lands of plenty tends to corrupt most people into wanting to stay there.
Thinking on this, it may well be their clan upbringing as to why they really didn't help get the IS going when they first got in. They may have believed the IS was the paradise taken over by demons and fought out otherwise.
Also, it may well be that the Dragoons left some notes or clues to League caches, hoping to help them get the tech up to resist the clans. Other little things like that without saying they were from the clans.
There was nothing written about any Wolfnet spies being caught. So there should have been a lot of things going on in the background.
Would be interesting if it turned out one of the Wolfnet agents was caught by comstar, and that is how the Outbound Light found Huntress Basically told the clans were x light years past the DC/LC border. Or even just truthfully said they were descendants, causing Comstar to increase their efforts.
I could say look at the harvest wars from the other side. It may well be the other clans were that bad, that the experience in the IS, allowed the two to do so much better. Might also be looked at how desperate the two clans were. Taking 'inferior' warriors just to garrison worlds.
But I will say it was the story line to have the Falcons and Wolves running rampant in the IS. So they had to come up with something the even approaches a smart fix. Favoritism may not be the right word. It doesn't seem like it would happen, but then the whole SL/Succession wars doesn't seem right. There are a lot of missed opportunities the developers could have done to make the game that much better, but failed.
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Requiem
01/29/20 06:51 PM
1.158.235.15
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….. Fusion engine thing ….
Vehicle – standard engine and heat sinks;
‘Mech – Engine must go into a housing that provides two additional layers of protection – Myomers then provide the additional heat whilst moving.
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Clan personnel becoming to like the IS, that they would rather stay and fight against their own.
Isn’t this why a psychological warfare unit is established? Take resources / knowledge from the Clans and then give it to the IS – prove evidence to other Non-Warrior Castes that their way of life is flawed and yet the IS way of life is correct.
Similar to defections during the Cold War era.
And yes I agree Clan indoctrination (when they are young) would be very difficult to combat – however, that said do the Clan’s allow their Non-Warrior Caste members holidays / access to the variety of entertainment diversions the IS allows its citizens? If not the IS entertainment diversions could pull them away from their Clan upbringing.
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T he Dragoons left some notes or clues to League caches, hoping to help them get the tech up to resist the clans.
Question: How can League cashes help the IS – first they would need to know how to re-engineer the equipment and then get into mass production prior to the Clan Invasion (How many years would this take?) – second when the Clans have technology that is in advance of League technology how is this not putting a band-aid over a hole in the dike wall?
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there should have been a lot of things going on in the background.
Agree …
Yes, I agree it would make for an interesting story that the reason the Outbound Light was so far beyond the reaches of the IS was because they had captured a Clan spy. It would also explain why they went that way (why they were looking in that general area) in the first place when you consider Kerenski’s original exit point.
There must have been something / Someone that provided ComStar with the idea of looking where they did.
There must be something missing from the story – or the story needs to be expanded upon.
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….Harvest Wars ….
Sarna.net wiki – Harvest Trials …..
Wolf
3057 – The “New” Clan Wolf led by Vlad harvested troops from Clan Smoke Jaguar; This would have required of him to either go through the Ghost Bears or go around with a very large force – thus at this stage the Wolf Wolds within the Invasion corridor were under strength in their garrisons. Why didn’t the IS attack now? This is the war of 3039 all over again when the FC attacked the DC when they should have attacked the CC.
You might say the IS didn’t know – and I will reply Black Box technology and the idea of partisans / IS spies / IS commandoes / Clan Wolf in exile spies within the new Clan Wolf and upon Clan Home Worlds. Word of their weakening should have gotten out –
So,What about Smoke Jaguar Territory – the inference is that the Wolves harvested Jaguar units – so Wolf troop numbers goes up and Jaguar troops numbers goes down – Why didn’t the DC attack vulnerable worlds at this time to retake lost worlds – how many of these worlds had Clan factories on them that could be used for the benefit of the DCMS if they attacked then and there?
There is a problems when you look at the Wolf harvesting – for a time their worlds are vulnerable and yet no one attacks; there is a problem with the Jaguar worlds are vulnerable and yet no one attacks;
What is going on here? … comparisons with the CC and the war of 3039 are readily available here!
Falcon
3057 – Clan Jade Falcon led by Marthe decide to “graduating many of her sibkos early and launching a dramatic incursion into the Lyran Alliance in 3058”
She does realize that her sibkos are not an IS school graduation class … they must go through their Trial of position … so how many warriors will graduate in any reality (that is unless she cheats and allows more to graduate than should have) …. And then invades Coventry! …. How many of these green warriors survived? …. Long term wouldn’t it have been better to allow then more time to graduate correctly and then season them over time so as to grow your forces into a large an effective Touman?
So whilst a majority of her forces were away from their Invasion Corridor Worlds why didn’t Victor attack this target rather than Coventry – how many important worlds (with Clan factories on them) could he have taken from the Falcons. At which time Marthe would have to retreat from Coventry – allowing the Lyran Alliance to retake Coventry.
And then we both Khans were called to the Clan Home Wolds for Trial of Absorptions, this seems to be a correct decision by their fellow Clans – both Wolf and Falcon are now weak and the weak are prey for the strong!
And then we are expected to believe the Council allowed then to get off on this charge … this is a complete load of BS!
And then it gets worse …” The temptation of a chance at glory in the Inner Sphere to those units who would give their allegiance to Clans Wolf or Jade Falcon proved too much for hundreds of warriors, who deluged both Clans with preemptive batchalls for Trials of Possession which they then proceeded to allow themselves to lose.”
Really? … this is so completely unbelievable …. All it is, is TPTB allowing both Falcon and Wolf to return to their previous undamaged Touman through a manner that can be considered the most unbelievable and illogical action by Clan Warriors.
Both Wolf and Falcon have failed, they have become weak, they have become prey, you do not add your strength to prey … you attack and devour prey …. The Trail of Absorption should have been allowed in full if you wanted the Falcon / Wolves to return to their original numbers. In one form or another.
Not impressed with the writing here … it is favoring some-ones pet Clans once again! Look at the reasons why each Clan is happy to be rid of these warriors to the Falcon / Wolves … it smacks not of the military but of the political …
Sorry to say but I find the entire Harvest Trial saga to be too far-fetched, it is not the Clan way!
Once more we have “missed opportunities” that make no sense whatsoever.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/29/20 07:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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The idea is that if the IS leaders get enough League tech, they could reverse engineer them without worrying too much about losing one or two. Given the IS has that many more warriors as well as vehicles, it would have improved their chances then just the 3025 tech. Also, they could well have improved on the League tech as well. Not saying it was a sure fire thing, but it is something. Even having the advanced units themselves would help a little. The Padilla Arrow IV tank being a good one.
Marthe pulling the sikcos out early would be a violation of traditions, though I can see the work around as they would prove themselves warriors by hitting the IS. If they survive, then that is their trial. Wether it holds water or not is the question.
So become a warrior you have to kill a mech, 2 to become a star Commander, and 3 for a star captain. Now I don't know if the rules say it has to be a CLAN mech or not. Underhanded? Yes. Cheating? I will have to say no. But that does lead to the question of reinforcements being delayed, as their planned ones were pulled out early. Does this mean it was become standard?
Also, it may disqualify those warriors from attaining blood names.
The novels suggested they Falcons kept pulling back when they should have kept going. They thought it was like a live fire training regiment. Guess it was.
As for a counter attack, I think the truce may have been why it didn't happen. To attack the clans from below the Line might have caused the clans to cancel the truce. I know I seen that in a few books.
Where does it say the clans built factories on worlds taken during the 3052 to 3060s? I know the Ghost bears didn't update the ones they got from the FRR, as they thought it wasn't worth it. So they used the normal output as target practice.
I do agree those warriors would not simply surrender, as that would mean they are inferior. The clans they came from would definitely challenge the invasion clans, if for nothing else, the ability to send their clans in to do what they could not. Otherwise, they would have tried to absorb them. Hence they weren't up to the weakened clans they faced.
And in the history of the clans that I know of, there has not been anything like this. Unless they want to say Absorbtion can be done with as small as a star. But this sounds unlikely.
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Requiem
01/29/20 10:20 PM
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League tech, they could reverse engineer.
Yes I agree that League Tech would help the IS …. but to do it effectively they (the IS) would need them in vast numbers.
Massive amounts of refit packages PRIOR TO the invasion would be required, or even the idea of shields would have been a start.
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Marthe pulling the sikcos out early would be a violation of traditions
… and yet she did it! … and no one complained.
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Now I don't know if the rules say it has to be a CLAN mech or not.
Here I would refer to the anime re: The 1st Somerset Strikers – the captured IS warrior was given a trial of position against Adam Steiner (IS) to become a Clan Jade Falcon Warrior– thus Clan Warriors can undergo a trial of position against either a Clan or IS ‘Mech.
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As for a counter attack, I think the truce may have been why it didn't happen.
Canon
Lyran Forces were so scattered they were incapable of moving to Coventry at that time ….
Victor formed a multi-national task force to fight the Clans on Coventry …
He then initiated a Clan bid
<in the background Vlad was threatening the Falcons to assist Katherine>
So when he offered them Hegira (Honorable withdrawal) they took it.
This led to the first Whittling Conference …. And the reforming of the SLDF
What I would like to ask is why Victor went to Coventry?
To be a great military leader you go straight for the Jugular, you do not stuff around on side battles. For that is what Coventry is, it is a side battle – The real battle lies within the Clan Invasion corridor – it is taking away their most important military industrial complexes (denying them the ability to wage war by removing their ability to manufacture consumables and spare parts). If victor had taken and held these worlds the future ability of Clan Jade Falcon to wage an effective war in the future would have been in jeopardy, and this is the real war!
With this victory beneath his belt he could then have called for the first meeting to reform the SL and the SLDF.
As for Coventry – Mythe could either attempt to hold Coventry or she could move as quickly as possible back to the Invasion corridor – Leaving behind any sizeable force would limit her response back in the Invasion Corridor – so she is stuck between a rock and a hard place as to what forces she will leave on Coventry (if any) – and as such the Lyrans should be able to transfer enough forces to engage and win against anything that remains.
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As for a counter attack, I think the truce may have been why it didn't happen. To attack the clans from below the Line might have caused the clans to cancel the truce.
Any attack would come from Arc-Royal – so no problem there – and as from attacking below the line, this refers to the Clans – they are not allowed to attack any world below the line – however that does not stop an IS force to attack a Clan held world from below.
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Where does it say the clans built factories on worlds taken during the 3052 to 3060s?
Objective raids would be my first guess …. There is no way the Clans would not retrofit all IS military industrial factories captured (especially those who manufacture consumables) as you cannot rely upon the Clan Home Worlds to manufacture everything (and in the numbers required) and then send it to the IS (6 month trip) … there is no way your logistics could stand this type of stupidity.
So taking these away would damage any future adventurism by the Falcons until they can obtain a new source of consumables and spare parts.
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I know the Ghost bears didn't update the ones they got from the FRR, as they thought it wasn't worth it. So they used the normal output as target practice.
Really? …. So what happened when they decided to transfer their entire population to the IS?
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…. they would have tried to absorb them. Hence they weren't up to the weakened clans they faced.
Yes this is the only logical next step at this stage …. Any weakened Clan must be challenged for their right to exist, less inferior genes be allowed to remain within the body of the Clans, and this cannot be tolerated!
The fight must of significant scope so as to reflect the gravity of the situation … a proxy site could have been chosen, such as a Deep Periphery World. Though this again would weaken their IS corridor worlds and invite an attack by the IS against any under-defended world.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/31/20 03:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the IS recovered some League tech in say 3025, and started producing it, do you think that would have changed even the 4th war, much less 3039 and the clan war? I would think so. Just double sinks would have done that.
Granted, the newer units would look far different then what they do now, as what was found would change what is used. One nation finding ERPPCs, while another having Streaks, with the 3rd having pulse tech would do wonders to shake up the IS. A gauss rifle would cause some major imbalance.
Marthe and her choices not being complained about could be several factors. The clans wouldn't care, as they would be poor warriors at best, meaning the Falcons would have been priming themselves for absorbsion. With this, they don't really tell other clans that they can or can't do this, beyond trials.
Outside of the game, most don't really care that much about little things like this, as they are more worried about things like new weapons, or coming up with the best ubermech.
Victor's visit to Coventry could be part of several reasons, all, or none.
Coventry was still one of his duty bound charges. He would have gone there, as they were still his people.
Showing the entire IS, that they were not going to be just given over to the clans, now that they knew how to fight them.
Show Katherine was not the leader they needed in that time era.
Give the IS a victory over the Falcons, boosting his image, or showing that united, the IS could take out the clans.
It isn't likely many knew of Katherine's involvement with Vlad, so she couldn't claim anything against her brother with this being done.
The very notion of going straight to the jugular of the enemy is the exact thing done to remove the Jaguars, and yet you said that Victor abandoned his people by doing so. So which is it? The leaders he left in position to do so, was supposed to be good enough to take care of things while he was gone. He failed in his judgement there, as he didn't realize Katherine was just waiting to steal the throne(s).
And where would Comstar or the DC strike from? Suggesting removing the clans would be a combined effort, not just the FC against the Falcons and Wolves, then the Bears. Which is where a lot of this falls apart.
To be honest, the Falcons would have gone after the Wolves in exile, if for no other reason then to embarrass the Wolf clan, as well as remove them from being a thorn in their side. Also, to take out the Kell Hounds, which fought the clans and won more then a few times, would show the Falcons were better. Granted that would destroy their training exersize.
There is a question in the harvesting of warriors that just surrendered. Even being desperate for warriors, would you really want a warrior that did not even try to fight? As said to Focht, to even suggest that be done, is an embarrassment to the entire clan notions. The only thing any warrior taken without a real try would be solhema, or show that the clan they came from is so weak, taking them out would have been better. I just don't see it being done.
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Requiem
01/31/20 05:43 PM
1.158.235.15
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If the IS recovered some League tech in say 3025, and started producing it, do you think that would have changed even the 4th war, much less 3039 and the clan war?
What it comes down to is …
Who found it ….
What was found …..
When was it found …..
Can it be readily reverse-engineered …..
Can it be produced in mass numbers before the key periods of time …….
Thus, yes there is a probability that whatever is found can change wars for one side or another …
ER PPC – year availability 3037 by the DC
Gauss Rifle – year availability 3040 - however – “field tested experimental versions of the Gauss rifle during the closing months of the War of 3039. Employed by elite units of the AFFS and LCAF, these prototypes required an additional critical slot and could jam in certain cases” (Sarna.net Wiki Gauss Rifle) – what could have happened if the FC had mass produced the Gauss prior to the invasion?
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Marthe and her choices
Yes I agree … it appears the Clans either do not care or it could be a legal means of blooding (trial of position) for your new sibko graduates.
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Victor's visit to Coventry
Optics / who is in charge / who takes credit … all political (Katherine’s battlefield)
Attacking the Jade Falcons within the Invasion Corridor could be seen as re-starting the war? However this impact could be lessened if you use the Clans own rules against them – whit what forces do you defend this world – Trial of Possession!
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The very notion of going straight to the jugular of the enemy is the exact thing done to remove the Jaguars, and yet you said that Victor abandoned his people by doing so. So which is it?
Did I? …. Where?
What I said, with regards to the Falcons, was that if you wanted to really damage the Falcons it would have been far better to attack the Invasion Corridor Worlds than it would have been to re-take Coventry.
September 18th 3057 – Katherine secedes the Lyran half of the FC.
March 15th- May10th 3058 – Invasion of Coventry by Clan Jade Falcon.
So Katherine had already stolen the throne before Coventry occurred.
Victor was in a position here to return worlds, that were taken by the Clans, to the LC – the optics of which she couldn’t steel! – So how would this appear on CMM?
No, I hold affirm to my assertion that it would have been far better for Victor to strike at the Invasion Corridor than it would have to strike out at Coventry.
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Suggesting removing the clans would be a combined effort, not just the FC against the Falcons and Wolves, then the Bears. Which is where a lot of this falls apart.
This is where TPTB’s canon story falls down ….
1 May 3052 – Tukayyid
It took 6 years of the 15 years truce gained by ComStar winning the battle of Tukayyid before the SLDF was established …
This is a complete load of BS.
Following Tukayyid is when the SL and the SLDF should have been formed …. It is from this point forward where every Great IS House should have started rebuilding (total warfare military industrial complex scenario as per USA homeland in WW2) their forces as well as building an Elite Vanguard Force designed for anti-clan warfare ….. should have been well underway by 3058 ….
Coventry should have been the first test of the new SLDF …. It should not have been the reason for it being rebuilt in the first place! …..
With a rebuilding of the SLDF – we then have a war for the complete removal of those IS Clans (who do not swap sides) from the IS – as is this not the real political / military aim of the SL and SLDF – returning EVERY IS WORLD to their pre-clan House?
And yet this goes against TPTB grand plan – a large number of new empires within the IS so as to ensure the 4th SW FC issue can never occur again – what a load of BS!
Again do they not understand the WW2 analogy? They are suggesting leaving Europe to the Germans as long as the allies can have Italy!!!!!!!!
If you want a large number of new empires by 3150, then just create them from the wars fought between the IS and Clan Space – those worlds within the Deep periphery between the two. Then just increase the distance a Jumpship can Jump.
Simple and realistic.
To consider the cannon history realistic is taking the idea of what is realistic way too far!
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….Wolves (in exile) Vs. Falcons …..
Let’s look at this …. The Wolves (in Exile) are on Arc-Royal (Future capitol of the ARDC) …A majority of the Falcons attack Coventry and in doing so Phelan and his Wolves travel to Coventry to become a part of Victors multi-national fighting force to fight the Falcons …. What a load of BS!
Would not, in this situation, a Clan Khan take the only realistic course of action – to take worlds from the Falcons and make them their own – would not Phelan establish his own Fiefdom for his Clan Wolves (in exile) out of the former Falcon territory – because the Falcons are week and the Wolves (in exile) are strong – and it will also allow his wolves to fight Vlad’s Wolves when he takes worlds close to the border.
This is the believable action of a Clan Wolf Khan don’t you think?
To think a Clan Wolf Khan would assist an IS surrat over an individual world is not believable – but attacking the hated Falcons when they are week is highly believable!
OR/-
Clan Jade Falcon Vs. Clan Wolf (in exile) + Kells Hounds – would make for an interesting battle, the scope of which could equal Tukayyid – and can be considered very plausible. However when you consider Mathe’s aims of blooding her troops she would get this with Coventry. Though with Arc-Royal you would get a war of annihilation there would be no coming back from the destruction this would cause the Falcons – Vlad would then just absorb whatever Falcons (units and worlds) were remaining into his Wolves. (Falcons no longer exist!)
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….. the harvesting of warriors that just surrendered……is an embarrassment to the entire clan notions.
Agree, I too cannot see this being done, it is just not within The Clans psyche / traditions to do so.
TPTB fixing their pet Clans? … CC and the war of 3039 again and how they somehow miraculously gained an additional 18 “Mech Regiments by 3062?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/31/20 09:28 PM
66.74.60.165
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The total war production has already been shown to be counter productive, as it was cause your own citizens to rise up as they lose luxury goods, then start having issues with necessary goods (in their eyes).
There should have been an increase for sure, as all the new factories and such came on line as well as old ones reopening broken lines as well. Even if it is just ICE run vehicles, if you have the fusion engine supply issues. Coventry posed a real issue, as it was a weapon producing world.
But then again, there should have been anti ship weapons in orbit, or even on the ground, taking down more then a few Falcon dropships. Being a factory world should have seen to that.
Where you can draw some ideas from WWII, the future battles isn't the same thing. A single tank unit in WWII, could not destroy an entire city, like New York, with what they had. Energy weapons can do so, and move on to the next city, with a fusion engine running it. So something like the DC version of the Phoenix Hawk would remove a lot of reliance on supplies. Armor, and moving to other worlds being the main ones needed, where the pilot could take what was needed for themselves to eat and drink.
Now a Phoenix Hawk LAM removes the need to drop or pick up the unit, removing the entire landing issues while still being able to slowly destroy cities on a world. Imagine a Vengeance carrier with all LAMs. You think you are safe, as they can't land and fighters aren't going to be able to do more them bomb and strafe things. So you hide in a bunker until they move on. With a LAM, they can come and kick your door in.
This was one of the ideas our group had. Any LAM would work, but we wanted all energy weapons for strafing and such. No ammo booms as well.
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Requiem
02/01/20 12:16 AM
1.158.235.15
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The total war production has already been shown to be counter productive, as it was cause your own citizens to rise up as they lose luxury goods, then start having issues with necessary goods (in their eyes).
Did this occur in WW2? …. There will always be a level of luxury goods … however there will not be an overflowing of luxury goods, there could be a rationing of luxury goods as imposed by the English during and post WW2.
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There should have been an increase for sure, as all the new factories and such came on line as well as old ones reopening broken lines as well
Yes this is true, every procurement department attached to the military would be requesting new Omni-tech ‘Mechs, Vehicles, and aerospace fighters as well as power armor (and Grey Death Armor) as well as light arms that can bring down an elemental;
Plus a new Navy – New dropships, new capital dropships, new fighter dropships, new Jumpships and pocket warships.
As for the idea of making single weapon Mechs – these should all see the bin at the design stage.
Remember military action has been the catalyst for the majority of all important technological development down through the ages ….
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A single tank unit in WWII, could not destroy an entire city
Operation Market Garden …. Arnhem – 1st Airborne Division, 1st Polish Parachute Brigade and the Glider Pilot Regiment Vs. elements of the 9th and 10th SS Panzer Division – result Arnhem was severely damaged.
Stalingrad …
Arracourt …
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LAM removes the need to drop or pick up the unit
LAMs perform as a cavalry unit – similar to WW1 Light Horse unit – long range reconnaissance, hit and run, and depending on the defending force they can even be used to acquire enemy logistical units / bases.
I also agree LAMs should be energy weapon only – they are long range units and they need to act as such, consumables will only limit their effectiveness on the battlefield.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/01/20 12:17 AM)
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ghostrider
02/01/20 02:11 AM
66.74.60.165
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One nation on a single world dealing with other hostile nations, or one nation spread across hundreds, if not thousands of worlds. What is the difference here? Oh yeah.One nation on a single world is not going to shoulder the burden of a war like this. By the way. DId total war production happen during the U.S. civil war? How about England vs France? Even the crusades? Even more recent wars didn't do so. A few along the Asian coast comes to mind. Even the cold war didn't produce this sort of response. There was an arms race, but it did not require a full shut down and conversion of civilian factories to military production.
I guess I should have added in a single tank that isn't resupplied, can't destroy a city like New York. Not a division. Not a corps or any other sized unit, but a single tank. A mech with energy weapons can. A tank with energy weapons and a fusion engine could as well, though unlike a mech, they would not be going thru buildings. No fuel. No ammo. Thus tactics used in older times doesn't work like they used to. Still has an effect, but nothing as dramatic.
Not saying war tech doesn't transfer over to civlian lives, but for the most part, war tech is just that. Made for war. I can be argued that having more advanced ways of taking down buildings should help create better ways of building them, but that isn't as much. It just allowed people to kill people faster and more efficiently, without actually having to deal with seeing the enemy die. Push a button and destroy a city. It could very well be a game with just blips to people that aren't were the fighting is at, anymore.
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Requiem
02/01/20 04:22 AM
1.158.235.15
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DId total war production happen during the U.S. civil war? How about England vs France? Even the crusades? Even more recent wars didn't do so.
Total war can be read at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war
…. The industrial revolution required prior to total war ‘production’ …
The mass manufacture of weapons and armor can be seen in some of the ancient empires, for example the Roman Empire. The first total war production can be seen during WW1 when you consider how shocking it was to allow women into factories to create the ordinance required for the front as well as when you consider the number of weapons being produced.
However, the second world war is a more accurate example of total war ‘production’ ….
- For example school children were taught to make anti-air netting during their recess and lunch periods;
- For small crimes individuals were given the choice of incarceration or working in a war plant;
- Consider some of the production statistics … https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II
As for the cold war … consider the idea of the missile gap (and all the other gaps) as well as the lengths the US went to too catch up ….. and yes there was an arms race …
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap#Effects
So when faced with the power of the Clans which model is more politically correct – ie. which model will politicians accept as a means of protecting themselves and their citizens?
Remember they are supposed to Mongols – and once the il-Clan is determined their future aim is the total conquest of the barbarian IS. So this could mean a war with ALL of the Clans, and ALL at the same time.
So, how many new units – all equipped with new technology - will be required to battle the current invading Clans so that the new SLDF can force them from the IS? And then keep them from invading a second time?
Also …
Let’s look at the big picture, the invading clans are only a fraction of the total Clans correct?
The IS know exactly how many Clans in total there are – POWS / Dragoons at Outreach, correct?
If the Invading clans are only a fraction of their total might, and they are causing the IS so much trouble, what would happen if ALL the Clans attacked at once?
Or, if you need to fight ALL of the Clans at once in the future, what are you going to do hope and pray you can produce enough in the future, or are you going to ensure you have the forces now?
In warships alone how many do ALL of the Clans have access to?
So, what are you going to do if they send ALL of them at once – and in numbers equal to what was seen during the Amaris Civil War / 1st Succession War fleet battles?
How do you know that when you send a force to Huntress you don’t step on the griffin’s tail starting a war with ALL of the Clans?
What would happen if Victor lost the Great Refusal?
Being prepared for the worst possible situation or just for the problem that is right in front of you now?
How can you be prepared for an eventuality of fighting ALL of the Clans in the near future? Ans: Total War production for 14 years for the entire new SL or just hope for the best?
Can anyone promise the new SL that they will be successful within the Clan Home Worlds’ in the future, especially when you consider the amount of trouble the Clans have give the IS during their invasion – and what it took to obtain a 15 year truce with them?
Being realistic there is only one political / military solution to the worst possible case – total war production for at least 14 years?
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….tactics used in older times doesn't work like they used to. Still has an effect, but nothing as dramatic.
As stated at the meeting in Japan during the second nuclear attack, “… hundreds of planes and thousands of bombs or one plane and one bomb the result in the same …”
Benjamin Franklin once said “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/01/20 11:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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There is something that is odd. There is no way to really beat the clans without taking out their production in a few areas. Warships for instance. You don't take out their ability to make it, and they will just keep building.
Again. The size of an IS nation is far different then even the entire axis or allies. There is absolutely no sense in making 10,000 vehicles on a backwater world in the FS area between the TC and AO. Going with the lack of dropships and jumpship, you can't move them. Now your suggestion of their being plenty, then it might work, but you have 200+ regiments of troops you could move out. And yes. This is exact opposite of me saying they needed to guard worlds.
Sending people with those vehicles that can operate them would be an issues, as few, if any, would have training. Something a few months in a vehicles could solve, but driving a mech is supposed to take time. And this isn't even going into Aerofighter pilot training.
I do agree with part of this, as it would help after a successful war. Dropship and jumpship production increases. But it is not necessary to remove consumer goods in that large of a scale. Also food is normally rationed at those times, which is the big issue. Those require transportation, and if I remember right, a few worlds didn't produce all that they could, since they couldn't ship it out. So instead of wasting it in the fields, they just didn't farm it all.
Total war production will have riots and rebellion in a short time, probably less then a year. 14 years would very well split up the IS better then the clans did.
Funny as the statement about Japan could well be used on why the IS didn't use nukes against the clans. One Warship in orbit, or a dozen. You world is doomed. Just how much time it would take is different. You use nukes, and the enemy uses nukes.
And Ben Franklin could be correct with that statement, but then everyone alive would fall into the don't deserve category. Everyone at one time or another has given up liberty for a short while, for safety. The total war seems to tie into this nicely. You have the right to not work 16 hours a day, making items that you will never use, while not having some essentials such as full meals or even things like small appliances and such, as those are going to the war effort.
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Requiem
02/01/20 04:23 PM
1.158.235.15
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There is no way to really beat the clans without taking out their production in a few areas. Warships for instance. You don't take out their ability to make it, and they will just keep building.
Correct.
So unless there is an Amaris Civil War, SW, Jihad era attack with ‘nukes’ how is the IS to survive?
Or are we to assume the I.S. is finally allowed to reduce the warship gap by establishing their own ship-yards, who can mass produce their own fleets within a short period of time – the IS’s technology rating is F after 3060 - so why not?
Or are we to assume the IS re-produces the Yamato, where this one ship can destroy every Clan warship with its prototype main gun?
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There is absolutely no sense in making 10,000 vehicles on a backwater world in the FS area between the TC and AO.
Which company were you thinking about?
Second during WW2 the Robert E. Peary, a liberty class merchantman, was made in 4 days, 15 hours, 29 minutes as a publicity stunt (average was 42 days each). So what would happen if a single Merchant Class Jump-ship could be made in 42 days at just one ship yard, an Invader in 63 days, a Star Lord in 84 days and a Monolith in 126 days.
Then what would the construction rates of drop-ships be?
All though Total War Production policy (once you have established clear logistical chains / quotas per time period to ensure, at a minimum, a just in time delivery schedule ie. a couple of years to tease out the problems).
So after a few years your transport issue is no longer an issue – each house can now start thinking about creating military units in the size of Brigades, Divisions, Corps and Army …
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training
How many training bases can be made is not a problem – like the Dirty Dozen they can build their own as part of basic training – just like they did in WW1 as well as WW2 – prefabricated buildings do not take that long to establish!
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…. but driving a mech is supposed to take time. And this isn't even going into Aerofighter pilot training.
Quote: Page 40 House Steiner: The Lyran Commonwealth ….”Many brave citizens actually left the Commonwealth to join Kerensky. The General gladly accepted these ‘Loyalists’ as they came to be known, into his army. He even managed to set up a makeshift MechWarrior school on Circinus, where he trained many of the Loyalists to pilot ‘Mechs in the years 2768 to 2772, which was the quiet before the storm”.
I would also like to ask how long it took to train the DC Ghost Regiments?
So again not a problem …..
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Also food is normally rationed at those times, which is the big issue.
On some worlds yes, however please look at the idea of the Land Army WW2.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-was-the-womens-land-army
so again not a problem …..
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Total war production will have riots and rebellion in a short time, probably less then a year.
Once communicated and beginning to be implemented some may resort to riots – but this is why you have riot police as well as the court system and the idea of penal battalions (Sven Hassel Books!) But over time it will settle down – England (The entire Commonwealth), America, Germany, Italy etc ……
So again not a problem …. Long term.
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14 years would very well split up the IS better then the clans did.
Or it could do the reverse – like it did in WW2.
Quote Kelly’s Heroes (1970 Film) – Oddball ….”A little faith, Baby, have a little faith” and “Oh, man….. don’t hit me with them negative waves!”.
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Funny as the statement about Japan could well be used on why the IS didn't use nukes against the clans. One Warship in orbit, or a dozen. You world is doomed. Just how much time it would take is different. You use nukes, and the enemy uses nukes.
Your world is not doomed … more of those negative waves!
DC …. Kamikaze … just how many ships were hit during WW2?
And how many aerospace fighters could the IS manufacture under a total war production policy?
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And Ben Franklin could be correct with that statement, but then everyone alive would fall into the don't deserve category. Everyone at one time or another has given up liberty for a short while, for safety.
Lions for Lambs? ……and yet when push changes to shove how many times have countries come together? USA …. Prior to Pearl was predominately an isolationist country … following Pearl, how radically did the entire US society shift to a military / war society?
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You have the right to not work 16 hours a day, making items that you will never use, while not having some essentials such as full meals or even things like small appliances and such, as those are going to the war effort.
Flippancy based upon individual interpretation?
Why is it the above post looks at all the problems / negatives and yet can’t even look at the solutions – there are still good politicians out there that can lead and implement programs that can ensure a positive work / life balance, even in war time.
I guess they really are the Greatest Generation …. No generation since can even consider they can find the same character as that which was found in WW2.
Where is the pioneering spirit of the Terran Exodus …. Where is the resolve to survive the 1st SW …. Where is the drive to improve the technological level of the IS …. Where is the desire to ensure your children and your children’s children live fee and safe in a universe where they can work to become whatever they want to be?
Oddball …. “Oh, man….. don’t hit me with them negative waves!”.
Where are all the positives … where is the can do attitude?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/01/20 04:58 PM)
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ghostrider
02/01/20 08:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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The construction rates for dropships/jumpships would be limited to those that can actually make them. You can't just build a jumpship in a system that has no shipyards capable of it. Part of why it is such a poor number to begin with. It should be seen as there were more before the succession wars took them out, so some may well be fixable.
Most worlds could make jeeps and such. That is the 10,000 that I was referring to.
And with this, there are a lot of worlds that can't even make workmechs, much less battle ones.
And the government would not let anyone make medium lasers. It leads to armed revolts.
Interesting that there isn't the concept of those well behind the lines suggesting that they shouldn't have to do much to fight off the invaders, as they are 'never' going to reach me.
And trying to use the U.S. comparison to other countries about the change to warfare isn't stating anything about the U.S. already having a great manufacturing base to start with. Had it been like a lot of other countries about WWII, then it wouldn't have been able to do what it did.
Some in the Japanese army knew attacking the U.S. was a mistake because we had the industrial might. They were right. They hit large portions of Asia and took them with some ease. No one there had the ability to even start a massive war effort.
The length of distance and time is the issue with using the earth as an example. Much like the original expansion, the Terran command couldn't deal with the revolutions going on with the initial expansion. Causing a long term total war production would see worlds joining together making new realms to stop the hardships put on their citizens for some far off war. And again. The IS wouldn't need a total war production effort. Just increased production in the factories they have.
As some stories have suggested, the IS governments aren't the only purchasers of equipment. Mercs and private organizations do, so there is more being produced then the governments buy.
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Requiem
02/01/20 11:57 PM
1.158.235.15
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The construction rates for drop-ships / jump-ships would be limited to those that can actually make them. You can't just build a jump-ship in a system that has no shipyards capable of it.
Humanity is ever resourceful – does a civilization who’s technology is now greater than that of the SL require the leftovers of the past to succeed – or can it not build its own path to success?
The future will not be limited by the past – it will forged in its own new ship-yards.
As for the staff requirements – every large corporation has its own education facility and considering the population of the IS how many would jump at the chance at building new starships?
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there are a lot of worlds that can't even make workmechs, much less battle ones
And again we see the one dimensional view of that of the IS – other than military Academies how often did the subject of schooling come up? Or hospitals, or police, lawyers, fire fighters and their engines, geologists, …. Or how about the simple electronics or personal computer, can anyone tell me who makes them and where within in the IS and in any specific numbers?
Again a more robust view of the IS is required.
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And the government would not let anyone make medium lasers. It leads to armed revolts.
Then who makes them now? And how are they then shipped to your military units? And who then puts them in your ‘Mechs, Vehicles, Fighters and gives them to your infantry?
What about the question of small arms within the IS?
What about the idea that many of the ‘Mechs were once handed down the family line where were these stored and how many armed revolts were caused by owning them?
Sorry but I don’t think this statement will hold water on those worlds with a strong legal framework – the periphery and other lawless worlds – might makes right has always been the rule.
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those well behind the lines suggesting that they shouldn't have to do much to fight off the invaders, as they are 'never' going to reach me.
Scenario No. 1 – Submarine within enemy waters;
Scenario No. 2 – Commando Unit behind enemy lines;
Scenario No. 3 – Spies and Partisans behind enemy lines;
…. I believe it has been well documented as to these risks.
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having a great manufacturing base to start with.
There are many historical texts that can be studied on this point …. Such as ….
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_World_War_I
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companies_by_arms_sales
Question how did Germany, Russia, England and Japan produce the majority of their military might?
And then returning to the Battletech Universe the only state (Great House) that didn’t have a reasonable military industrial complex is the CC.
In addition I would like to ask this – How many worlds do the Clans have (Home worlds) in comparison to the IS? What is the difference between populations IS / Clans? What resource difference is there between the Clans and the IS?
When the IS gains a primer of all the Clans Technology (Huntress), how long should it take for the IS to integrate it IS wide? And then How long will it take for the IS then to reach the same production output as that of the Clans? And then how long before they surpass the technological might of the Clans in production and in knowledge (for how can they even trust their own scientists – and how long can their scientists live under their restrictions)? And how long can their totalitarian way of life survive since it has now been exposed to the IS open culture? How long can the idea of the Superman (Trueborn) survive in a society yearning for freedom and equality?
25, 50, 75, 100 years – choose?
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Causing a long term total war production would see worlds joining together making new realms to stop the hardships put on their citizens for some far off war.
Again … this is but speculation it cannot be considered to be a certainty / un-certainty – it is up to each GM to determine.
It has only been seen in Skye, FRR, Andurien, Capellan March and the Periphery States – and in my Alt Universe the former CC and St. Ives.
How difficult would it be to seek independence with a new SL in control – plus the FRR is hoping they will get their lost worlds back and re-establish their empire.
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The IS wouldn't need a total war production effort. Just increased production in the factories they have.
If there is a possibility of going to war with ALL of the Clans (IS and Home) all at the same time – how much would you have to increase production to win against them?
Questions….
How many new units will you need?
How many new Jumpships will you need?
How many new Dropships will you need?
How many new Warships will you need?
200, 300, 400…. 1000% increase in production and over how many years – choose?
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As some stories have suggested, the IS governments aren't the only purchasers of equipment. Mercs and private organizations do, so there is more being produced then the governments buy.
Question … who makes the laws in regards to who can and who cannot purchase military grade equipment?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/01/20 11:58 PM)
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ghostrider
02/02/20 12:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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I left out the word in the statement of the governement letting people make medium lasers. It should be just anyone. Left out just. I see where that changed the concept of that statement.
The question of how many people would jump at the chance to make starships is hard to answer.
Things like how afraid people are of being that deep in space with no immediate help, how dangerous the work actually is, are two main ones I can think of right now.
On the other side of this, does the company even want them?
Training them is going to be a pain at first, with some people not being able to do it no matter what. Maneuvering in space and trying to weld is not a skill most people can master. Remote drones can only do so much, and having people using them that know anything is uncommon to rare. Given how many people may be tapped, it might not be such a big deal.
Scenario No. 1 – Submarine within enemy waters;
Scenario No. 2 – Commando Unit behind enemy lines;
Scenario No. 3 – Spies and Partisans behind enemy lines;
…. I believe it has been well documented as to these risks.
It this meant to say those behind their own lines should be worried about these scenarios? Subs don't scare people on other worlds. The commando unit might be a concern, as well as suicide squads, but again. They think the security at the spaceport will keep such things out. Partisans are not a worry like subs aren't. Spies, especially assassins would be, but not to the common man. Those in charge or prominent people like scientists would be.
Someone on Galax isn't so worried about wars in and around the FRR, as long as his security isn't threatened by it. And that would mainly be the military guarding their butts being move out would worry their security.
Speculation that the IS worlds would revolt against the main government and form their own little pacts when they are forced into situations the main populace doesn't want? It is history of the IS, as well as humanity. Revolts at the least. In the game, the distances and limited number of forces allows this sort of thing to happen, with some governments being less likely to just drop an invasion force onto the world to pacify it.
The government putting restrictions on who businesses can sell to is the main one. Corporate leaders can limit them as well. Some will sell to banned buyers anyways, but normally through the 'black market'. Shell companies and such, with clandestine drops and such. But given the issues with the CC and what the MAC did, it is obvious some companies deal with every nation around the IS, as well as mercs and private parties.
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Requiem
02/02/20 05:16 PM
1.158.235.15
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…..the chance to make starships …. how afraid people are of being that deep in space with no immediate help, how dangerous the work actually is … does the company even want them? … Given how many people may be tapped, it might not be such a big deal.
First, shipyards –
Wouldn’t they be above a planet in geosynchronous orbit so as to ensure ease of transport of materials from planet to shipyard?; Or
Built into a moon with a low gravity – specialist low gravity manufacturing facilities also built into the world / other goods can be quickly transported from the Nearby world?
Thus I wouldn’t call this being in deep space especially when the Inner Sphere in a deep space society.
Yes, I agree the work is dangerous …. But how much money are they going to be offered to do the work? So how many will just not care and will therefore sign up?
However, the real issue is how a ship is built – is there a description of this process?
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It this meant to say those behind their own lines should be worried about these scenarios?
Too literal ….
Submarine – Stealth tech pocket warship with capital missiles? – add in the idea of a WW1 and 2 wolf-pack - add in the idea of supply merchantmen Drop-ships and yes people should be scared.
Commando Units – usually para’s who are dropped in the middle of no-where or remain behind as the main House Units withdraw (to be collected at a later date). So unless they are coming in and they have a valid visa I doubt they will need the Spaceport (That is unless this is where they are going strike!).
Partisans – how well trained are they? Are they from the local reserve unit and armed with their tech (and explosives)? so yes, partisans can be a worry.
Spies – anyone that gets in their way will be collateral damage! – Suggest reading about “The White Mouse (WW2)”
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Speculation that the IS worlds would revolt against the main government and form their own little pacts when they are forced into situations the main populace doesn't want?
Revolts usually require two factors …. Heat and pressure ….
Respect (listening to the grievances and providing timely solutions), good remuneration, plenty of ale houses etc. will alleviate this problem.
Also you don’t use the military to stop a riot – sledge hammer to crack an egg – just the local constabulary.
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The government putting restrictions on who businesses can sell to is the main one. Corporate leaders can limit them as well.
This is why you have auditors as well as customs inspectors …. However removing “mech from the line to sell it off on the black market will be a little obvious? However if you have the money in the game there is always a work around for any situation, you just need to know the right people.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/02/20 06:45 PM
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I was thinking of shipyards being those that needed to be outside of a planets pull, such as jump and war ship production. Dropships, well some of them, can be made on world. For some stupid reason I initially thought of jump points being the main place.
The easiest way to avoid revolts is to avoid total warfare production. The people may do without some things if you increase it, but without being everything that can be, changed over to war equipment production would be the main answer. Done right, the commercial companies can make more money off of what they sell.
Example: A car company having to reduce the amount of production for a popular car. They still sell them but at a higher price as production goes down, from helping the war effort.
This is much better then saying there isn't any new cars coming out as all factories are production jeeps and tanks. In the game mechs and such would be added to that.
Companies can sell to a lot of different entities, include across the border legally in the IS. Otherwise units could not buy a new Defiance made unit if they were in the CC, or TC, or OA. Not just mercs, but actual well known entities in foreign lands.
Before the FC alliance became a reality, the FS and LC were doing a lot of business with each other. The Hatchetman was designed in the FS, while the LC actually produced it. Munitions is a big one as well. War time tends to rely on the black market, as most, if not all, weapon production is banned from being sold across the border.
The issue with the MAC came from that unit being quasi house troops for the CC. So they were on the banned list. The one Defiance rep took their money and refused to ship the supplies, according to the adventure pack. I can believe that would be the case, as a few million C-bills were involved.
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Requiem
02/02/20 09:19 PM
1.158.235.15
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The easiest way to avoid revolts is to avoid total warfare production.
Both had total warfare production, and yet how many revolts?
https://www.striking-women.org/module/women-and-work/world-war-ii-1939-1945
https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/us-home-front-during-world-war-ii
Again revolts are dependent upon the overall societal impact as well as the society itself.
There is no way anyone could guarantee revolts (unless there is outside agitation – and what would their end game be here?)
Yes with scarcity prices should increase, black markets and marketers should also become more prevalent – however if the government is able to stabilize production quotas and introduce price stabilization laws – the overall economic impact can be minimized.
Also utilizing ‘Movies and Baseball’ as seen in the US home front post, as above, demonstrates a positive effect for the home front during wartime.
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War time tends to rely on the black market.
Yes, I agree, this is an accurate assumption.
Luxury goods … acquired through “creative” logistical methods – having contacts within the military as well as the local syndicate.
Weapons / spare-parts …. If you have the money they can send out a “Mercenary Unit” to get whatever you want from the enemy (or allies) through “creative” logistical methods.
Ammunition …. This usually falls of the back of a truck.
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…. MAC ….
This is where an understanding of purchases of this size would have helped – COD – would have been the only method in this case.
However, as the MAC is some-ones pet unit they will not even notice the loss.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/02/20 11:15 PM
66.74.60.165
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The MAC supposedly hit Defiance to reclaim the costs. I'd have to reread the pack to see how they did it, as hitting Hesperus isn't really an option.
And COD isn't likely in the future. The war companies have the upper hand here, as they have plenty of customers wanting things, and you have to deal with them. I know Comstar was used to make sure payments were made to the company, but not sure how often they 'forgot' the customer. Might well be an advance on the materials is what was lost. I doubt a few million c-bills would cover much of what the MAC would need. The CC wasn't reliable to cover their needs, so they went thru shell companies to get resources from other nations. Or so the pack said. Also, sending thousands of crates to the buyer, could have the right stuff in a few, just enough to get the customer to believe they all have the right stuff in it. The seller was only a rep, not a main salesman from the company.
Luxury good isn't something the common man can even think to afford, much less get in contact with the black market for. But then the rich tend to be the ones pushing for changes, when they don't get their way.
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Requiem
02/03/20 01:15 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
The MAC supposedly hit Defiance to reclaim the costs. I'd have to reread the pack to see how they did it, as hitting Hesperus isn't really an option.
Sarna.net wiki Hesperus – Fourteenth battle
“The truth, which is not publicly known, is that Kincaid's firm (KDI) was secretly building prototype Double Heat Sinks for the Federated Suns (made possible by the FedCom Accords). Kincaid had embezzled a significant share of the production and sold it to the Capellans. When the Lyran Intelligence Corps threatened to uncover his activities, he delayed their investigation long enough to arrange for his safe extraction in a staged raid, providing the Confederation with the blueprints in return. It is implied that Kincaid provided the means by which the attacking DropShips could safely approach the heavily guarded world.”
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And COD isn't likely in the future.
Question: Why Not? I cannot see why banking practices would change – even after a thousand years.
But this was never about the money, as above, it was just an objective raid – extraction of one person (and his attached documents), in which they were provided with a safe way on world.
Though once on world they really took a beating.
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Luxury good isn't something the common man can even think to afford
Definition of Luxury Goods? …. Superior goods ….. a high quality brand …. Haute couture ….. or something else such as wine, bottled water, coffee, tea, foods …..
Also … Black markets also include everything from every-day items to entertainment products etc.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/03/20 12:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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Do your really think the war manufacturing companies would risk bringing loads of equipment without having it paid in advance? Simple ambush of the delivery system would result in a massive loss of funds. Done right, the buyer would be visible on another world, so blame could be avoided.
Also as stated before, the war companies have the advantage. You pay up, or even a large deposit, or they ignore your order. And the added advantage of pay first. If they have to ship it to you. You 'prove' the order never showed up.
And what do you do if the order isn't right? There would have to be someone to arbitrate if say you order 10 tons of LRMS but only got 8 tons. The other two were 'shipped' but never made it? Black market was good for skimming equipment from shipments. A few missiles per crate would be ideal.
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Requiem
02/03/20 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Do you really think the war manufacturing companies would risk bringing loads of equipment without having it paid in advance?
Reputation of the buyer,
Was there a deposit paid in advance,
Being an armaments corp. wouldn’t they have their own security force or a mercenary security unit, they have the money!
If anything went wrong the buyers reputation would be shot with every armaments corp. within the IS …. It is a very small world … and remember, reputation is everything in this game.
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war companies have the advantage
No, House Governments have the advantage …. As well as the lawyers, you don’t think there would be a clause in the contract to make sure any “problems” were accounted for.
Also the contract will have a clause for incorrect numbers supplied …. And whom had to pay for it!
Daria ……Shrinkage, Babe!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/03/20 11:20 PM
66.74.60.165
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You said it yourself with the Kincaid thing. He was shorting the government with double sinks. He was for a while. And as said about ammo falling off the back of a truck.
Who is responsible when the shipment is short? Or do they even know this? Supply people selling items isn't something new, and I doubt it went away in the future.
Also, who is responsible for shipments stolen by pirates and such?
And I seriously think all shipments will have mercs or security with them, as that would mean black market and pirates wouldn't have anything, unless the security or mercs were stealing it to sell.
Remember. These companies, including Defiance, ship all over the IS.
In nation, the lawyers have some pull. Between nations? Doubt it. Enforcement of such contracts, is the issue. I seriously doubt the LC would get on some of the manufacturers for shorted supplies. An investigation would have to be done, and things like bribes would change the truth to what ever they wanted. So what if the unit on garrison duty is short 2 tons of missiles out of 200. So what if the front line unit is short as well. The government officials or some such are happy with a few extra thousand C-bills. The unit will survive.
But what happened in all the militaries on Terra, wouldn't happen in the IS.
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Requiem
02/04/20 03:55 AM
1.158.235.15
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Question, and what happed to Kincaid when he was caught? He had to flee to the CC – all FedCom Assets seized!
Reputation … shot! … has to flee to the CC …. what will happen to him when he is in Capellan space? How vastly different is their way of life to which he would now have to conform to? Will they put him in a position of trust or will they give him a minder, (or just shoot him when they have the information and a working unit).
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Who is responsible when the shipment is short? Or do they even know this?
1. Whatever is in the contract; and
2. You simply count it or weigh it depending upon the product – plus there would be other ways you can make sure your are getting what you paid for.
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who is responsible for shipments stolen by pirates and such?
Insurance Agency.
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And I seriously think all shipments will have mercs or security with them, as that would mean black market and pirates wouldn't have anything, unless the security or mercs were stealing it to sell.
Question – how valuable / important are the goods being transported –as the more valuable / important the higher the probability that either rent a cops / mercenaries or worse (Black Cats in the DC) will be assigned to protect the shipment.
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In nation, the lawyers have some pull. Between nations? Doubt it.
Question – please explain how international trade can work if there isn’t a set of international rules by which trade can occur?
It works here and now so I will assume that it will work there (in the future) as well.
International Business is a series of very interesting University Subjects – you can get a minor or major in IB when you get a Commerce Degree.
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things like bribes would change the truth to what ever they wanted
Possible, but many Archons have tried to stamp this out – especially when it comes to border protection officers.
This is why you would have an internal police force dedicated to rooting out any corruption from these civil servants.
Plus if Military Logistics were short – the MPs would be informed they would then Liaise with their civilian counterparts to find out the truth – there is no way that they would just say f… it!
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But what happened in all the military on Terra, wouldn't happen in the IS.
Doubt it!
James Longstreet, “Time sets all things right. Error lives but a day, Truth is eternal.”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/04/20 11:26 AM
66.74.60.165
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Still not seeing the whole picture?
Weapons manufacturers have always had someone skimming the supplies. The big companies tend to 'miscount' as well as the supply personnel in the military. Things like manifests having a number different from the real order.
And with the delivery security. More then a few bases would not let them anywhere near the bases as they were not authorized, so the buyer would have to get the supplies from the dropships. It is this reason why pirates or smugglers could intercept the supplies and take them. Show up claiming to be the buyer.
Another thing along this line is having a planet quarrented or blockaded. Again. The supply ship that isn't part of the military would not be allowed near it.
Count or weight it. There is such things as faulty parts in a good shipment. Simply casings with some junk in them to make them look or weight the same as the real stuff. Even missing valuable components like the targeting systems, yet will fire like it's supposed to.
Ammo not having the correct charge in them, or made of lesser materials. It is very likely that a round or two in a clip not doing the damage it is supposed to do, would be missed in a fire fight.
Is there really an insurance company that deals with this sort of thing? I haven't heard of such a thing in the world today.
In a court of law, do you think the judges will rule that a foreign supply company isn't at fault over their own military? So they could scam the supplier by saying something was short or wrong? And how do you really enforce it? It may well be a rival unit that took the shipment.
There are more then a few stories saying the munitions a unit in the field got were defective. Scams have been around for a long while and will not stop in the future. Also, this is how some of the black market get their wares. It is simple enough to mark a case file as close, especially if you can do it electronically.
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Requiem
02/04/20 05:13 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
Weapons manufacturers have always had someone skimming the supplies.
And now?
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It is this reason why pirates or smugglers could intercept the supplies and take them. Show up claiming to be the buyer.
Really? … don’t you think there would be security procedures in place to ensure this never occurs?
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There is such things as faulty parts in a good shipment. Simply casings with some junk in them to make them look or weight the same as the real stuff. Even missing valuable components like the targeting systems, yet will fire like it's supposed to.
Quality control procedures?
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Is there really an insurance company that deals with this sort of thing?
Please google ….
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311762118_Marine_Insurance_and_Piracy
“Marine Insurance for Piracy Attacks: Necessities and Benefits - Hull insurance, which covers physical risk to the ship, like anchoring or damage from heavy seas, collision, sinking, capsizing, fire, piracy, and discarding encumbering cargo to save other property. Cargo insurance that covers the goods transported in the ship.”
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In a court of law, do you think the judges will rule that a foreign supply company isn't at fault over their own military?
Current Maritime law is “Once a ship is 24 miles from any coastline, it's on the high seas (or international waters). With the exception of certain rights within the contiguous zone, the law of that ship is the law of the country whose flag it's flying.”
Assume it would be similar within Deep space – however once you enter a Jump-point whomever owns that point their laws will prevail. All sides will have to be careful with regards to Jump-ships as retaliation / embargo / restriction of trade etc. can be used by the aggrieved party …. Ie. it is highly political sensitive topic for all IS Great Houses and Periphery Powers.
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There are more then a few stories saying the munitions a unit in the field got were defective.
Yes this is possible. However, when investigated what happened to the person(s) at fault?
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It is simple enough to mark a case file as close, especially if you can do it electronically.
Yes electronics warfare will become prevalent, however I would also say that anti electronics warfare will be developing at the same time – so it comes down to who’s ‘karate’ is better.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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