Requiem
01/29/20 07:13 PM
1.158.235.15
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A question was asked within Alt History Kurita’s response to Turtle Bay by ghostrider, unfortunately I am unable to make a post as the system will not allow me, I will therefore create this new post to reply …
Ghostrider,
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A thought that came up that fits this thread. The DCs following bushido, would head out to avenge their ways would lead to the never ending war with the LC. They did assassinate coordinators in the past. Would that not set off the entire military to ignore orders and just continue to pound the LC? Even to the point of leaving the FS alone to get the troops to do so?
My attempt in trying to explain …
An essay on the 8 virtues of a Samurai can be found at ….
http://bushidovirtues.blogspot.com/p/english-essay-on-eight-virtues-of.html
Hagakure (A kind of bible for the Imperial Army and Navy – WW2) can be found at …. (there are other books on this and you might want to read some of these also) ….
https://www.themathesontrust.org/papers/fareasternreligions/mt-hagakure.pdf
This is very hard to answer …. As there are “some” inconsistencies / hard to understand philosophical issues to consider … especially as I sometimes find it difficult to understand some of the nuances involved coming from a western upbringing … so I may have some errors, but to the best of my train of thought I would suggest the following to be considered …(so, do not consider this to be absolutely correct … as over time I may need to refine my view if an error is pointed out by someone with more knowledge / understanding than mine, as it currently is now.)
That said …
When one master dies and another takes his place ... samurai within a clan do not become ronin but remain as samurai as the new young master takes his place as master of the Clan …
Being a good retainer of one’s new young lord you must act for their benefit first – How does it serve them if you attack blindly against one enemy and allowing the other to attack your new young lord and the Clan. What point would it serve to take revenge now if it will cause the Clan to fall to ruin?
Point 114 of Hagakure - “being a samurai, its basis lies first in seriously devoting one’s body and soul to his master.”
However there is also the tale of the 47 ronin (From Wiki) “The story tells of a group of samurai who were left leaderless after their daimyo (feudal lord) Asano Naganori was compelled to perform seppuku (ritual suicide) for assaulting a court official named Kira Yoshinka, whose title was Kozuke no suke. After waiting and planning for a year, the ronin avenged their master's honor by killing Kira. They were then themselves obliged to commit seppuku for the crime of murder. “
In this case “Asano's goods and lands were to be confiscated after his death, his family was to be ruined, and his retainers were to be made ronin (leaderless).”
So there was no transference from old master to new young master …. The act itself created their position as ronin, and allowed for their future vengeance as they were free from any lords orders (They could act in a manner free of any orders – ie. Their view was that they were still bound by their ties to their past lord), as it did not allow them to remain as samurai under Asano’s heir, where they would then be bound by their new masters orders.
So if we apply this to the DC – how will it serve the Coordinator (when one dies and another takes his place) if his Samurai go ronin and seek vengeance for the dead old Lord. As a Samurai they must trust to their new young lord to provide an opportunity to seek revenge in the future …. Usually as quickly as possible, as leaving it too long is not considered an appropriate behavior for a samurai …
Hopefully I have provided a correct answer … if not can someone point out my error, as this is a very interesting topic for the Battletech Universe – especially when understanding the DC way of life.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/29/20 07:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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A few things that might change this would be things like the commanding officers decide they need to punish the enemy for assassinating their beloved leader, and show the new one, they will not allow it to happen again. The leaders own guards failed to protect them.
Another would be the way they were killed. Not by hand to hand combat, but a poisoned blade or some such from the shadows. Rage does stop on from thinking clearly. Now with the IS, time can blunt this as it does take time to get loaded up into dropships and head towards the jumpships. Depending on how far, and if either the dropships or jumpships aren't available, means even more time to calm down.
And the transferring of oaths to a new lord isn't guaranteed. Some of the generals and such may well have decided to strike back, as they swore fealty to one person, not the family. Also, there is no guarantee that the new lord will accept the oaths.
But this is not likely to be the masses response. More like a minority.
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Requiem
01/29/20 08:50 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
…commanding officers decide they need to punish the enemy for assassinating their beloved leader …
Point 19 … To hate injustice and stand on righteousness with perseverance;
Point 21 … Among the maxims on Lord Naoshige’s wall there was this one: “Matters of great concern should be treated lightly.” Master Ittei commented, “Matters of small concern should be treated seriously.”
Point 24 …. At the time of a deliberation concerning criminals, Nakane Kazuma proposed making the punishment one degree lighter than what would be appropriate.
Plus there are others ….
If they are on the Battlefield, then yes this could be considered as taking revenge …. However there cannot be a long delay between the time their lord was struck down and the time when they struck down the enemy … though when the time comes there is no moment for reasoning only action …
However if they are on another world and they want to travel a great distance to achieve revenge this would not be acceptable as they did not receive their Lords permission to do so. Though if given, off they go … and heaven help anyone in their way ….
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The leaders own guards failed to protect them.
Seppuku!
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Another would be the way they were killed. Not by hand to hand combat, but a poisoned blade or some such from the shadows.
Please refer to sarna.net Wiki Snow Fire - I am pleased to say I believe what was written here is accurate …
“On Yoguchi's return in 2850 after his first night back on Luthien, Snow Fire quietly slit his throat with a plasticine knife.
The Combine's official story was that Yoguchi was killed while heroically fighting against a whole team of assassins. The truth was known only to House Kurita's inner circle, which felt great shame at the actual circumstances. Yoguchi's successor, his brother Miyogi, felt honor-bound to avenge this insult which lead to the largest Kurita offensive against the Lyran's center of 'Mech production Hesperus II and the loss of the last active Successor State WarShips until the arrival of the Clans.”
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And the transferring of oaths to a new lord isn't guaranteed.
Correct … if they believe there is a better person to be the next lord this could lead to an internal power play and even civil war, as to whom the rightful leader is.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/06/20 09:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is a major issue with the way of the warrior in the IS. How many people actually follow it?
We know more then a few senior officers in the DCMS don't. Warlord Samsonov was a big one to ignore it.
As said before. Being based isn't a strict model of what it is being based on.
Pure dedication to a warlord, should mean all warriors that followed that warlord, would not rest until they were avenged.
So there is no possible way this could be continued into space. And even the history of the samurai has evolved with the times.
Firearms moved them from the sword to guns. Not all at once, and some did resist them. Normally, those that chose not to use firearms or even bows, which killing an enemy from a distance was frowned upon, would die rather quickly.
This is not saying that the original virtues of the samurai were bad, it just could not continue when the ability to kill multiple people with just holding a trigger become the preferred means of combat.
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Requiem
02/07/20 03:36 PM
1.158.235.15
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Being based isn't a strict model of what it is being based on.
True.
However, the issue in regards to this is the Coordinator – how adherent he / she is to the way of the warrior and what is the Royal Court’s Norms - it is also dependent upon …
* their superiors (top down) as to how adherent they are;
* which unit they are – Big difference between Sword of Light and Vega;
* the individual desire for a promotion - how good is your training with a Katana (to get a promotion you may need to demonstrate your prowess);
* the era in which your character lives in;
* the planet you live on – Luthien vs some back water world;
* your station in life within the DC “arch” – society can be viewed as an arch-way – from the bottom foundation to the central stone holding it all together;
* the education you received – The elite family (high wealth and social standing) – their heir’s schooling, the Academy they went to etc – vs. a yakuza’s schooling on the street (low social standing);
* and the always popular reason – The ISF and ISF informants (Refer Sorenson’s Sabres – Pg. 22 Sharon Burgoz).
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Pure dedication to a warlord, should mean all warriors that followed that warlord, would not rest until they were avenged.
Not accurate, refer above regarding 47 ronin.
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the samurai has evolved with the times.
Possible, but I haven’t read anything that supports this view.
The DC have espoused a quasi WW2 doctrine with the old and new all thrown into a hot pot to simmer – then poured over reasons a person adheres to these values – as noted above .
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Firearms moved them from the sword to guns. Not all at once, and some did resist them. Normally, those that chose not to use firearms or even bows, which killing an enemy from a distance was frowned upon, would die rather quickly.
Can I please ask you read the wiki page regarding Kyudo – sub heading Purpose – it starts off with, “Kyudo is practised in many different schools, some of which descend from military shooting and others that descend from ceremonial or contemplative practice. Therefore, the emphasis is different. Some emphasise aesthetics and others efficiency. Contemplative schools teach the form as a meditation in action. In certain schools, to shoot correctly will result inevitably in hitting the desired target. For this a phrase seisha hitchu, "true shooting, certain hitting", is used.”
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This is not saying that the original virtues of the samurai were bad, it just could not continue when the ability to kill multiple people with just holding a trigger become the preferred means of combat.
Actually, I believe the opposite – samurai virtues allow for a fame of mind that will provide a more balanced Mech Warrior than that of the western approach – their philosophy trains the mind to accept what must be done, as well as obedience and self sacrifice.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/07/20 03:38 PM)
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