ghostrider
02/04/20 07:25 PM
66.74.60.165
|
There is still skimming going on in the military and does in the games future. It is not something that can be stopped, as long as there is some human element in the mix. It isn't all the grunts doing the work either. There are more then a few pieces of equipment in the field that still doesn't work right, and what happened to the manufacturers? They are making billions after the equipment was ordered, trying to fix it. Do you really think that changed in the future?
And again. The black market has to get the items from some where. They don't manufacture most of it themselves.
The fall off the truck would never happen in the way you explain how things would be investigated. Someone would pay for it. So the risk of being caught, doesn't stop it. Hmmm. Sounds like most of it doesn't get caught. Kincaid got greedy. Or stupid. Maybe both.
How many movies have a basis in real facts? People show up to pick up items from shipping, and turn out they were not from the buyer? Or get killed when they do find out? This is not all transactions. This is a minority, but it is the way high end items get on the black market. Full mechs end up there, and that is not something that you can easily hide, like a few ammo crates.
Maritime law. Funny. The idea of not nuking or using other WMD get violated, and you think the Maritime law would prevail?
Do you really think the CC judges would rule that an FS/FC supplier wasn't at fault if say even the MAC said they were shorted? If so, then you need to return to reality.
Investigations only happen when noble lives are injured or a major issue comes about from it. Having a ton or two of bad ammo among 12 regiments isn't likely to be investigated, unless there is someone of a higher station that used it and got hurt. Even defective equipment.
Do you know what hacking is? There are plenty of anti virus software out there, yet they do not stop all of it. Banks get hit, as well as the governments around the world. Not all of them caught. In fact, a lot never get detected. Programs in systems for years, before someone finally comes across an oddity. Hacking isn't all real time like shows like to suggest.
A lot of malware is entered into company systems from people checking the email and advertisements. Some get caught. Some don't.
|
Requiem
02/06/20 06:21 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Issues with the Cannon Clan Invasion
After going back and re-reading saran.net wiki – Clan Jade Falcon / Operation Revival I have issues with the way the war was written -
Possible Alt. History as follows .....
First Wave was March 3050 and it wasn’t until the second (May) / third (June) wave did the need for garrison units eventuate do to the massive increase in partisan activities upon acquired worlds <Second Wave – “Serious issues in the initial plan: Increasingly large numbers of units were held back in order to quell uprisings”> – However the time taken from the Clan Home Worlds to the IS is 6 months + and preparation time of at least one month – thus the earliest they could have arrived in December 3050 / January 3051.
However – PGC’s began entering the IS in wave three – where it states that “these PGCs helped to tap down on the revolting populace” – However, when it comes to PGCs they are still ineffective when it comes to garrisoning worlds – most are Triads – one star each ‘Mech (5), Elementas (25) and Fighters (10) – a complete lack of infantry (As to Garrison / police a world in the Billions you need infantry in the tens of thousands per world is required and even then you do not have total control) is posing a severe problem.
However ilKhan Leo Showers is killed October 31 – So who is third in Command of each Clan to take control and assign the PGCs to their assigned worlds? (Khan and saKhan are required upon the Clan Home Worlds – thus they will be gone for 12 to 15 months in all reality)
Solutions ....
ComStar assists to pacify worlds – Quislings – How many would go along with the Company line and how many will rebel against this policy of assisting the occupation force? (Historical precedents - Norway, Poland, France – WW2 Vietnam etc.)
Or, Gestapo Tactics? The Use of Fear and the firing squad ...
Either way, I cannot see this working given the cultural differences the Clans are attempting to impose upon the IS.
So, does the Clans have the political ability / willpower and foresight to form “Escorpion Imperio Castes – Support and Garrison” from the masses upon the Clan Home Worlds far earlier than first considered and do they have the transport capabilities to transfer these mass infantry into the IS with any alacrity? – You are looking at decades to form and transport to the IS any meaningful numbers to take control of any meaningful number of worlds or to even form units from IS individuals who accept a security position within the new reishimes.
And this would never change – no matter what time period you are in – so with the expansion of the invasion corridors into the new Clan empires (3150) how can they control anything given their limited numbers – sorry but again this does not make any sense whatsoever – example:- Skye – how can the clans garrison this area, the population have a long history of rebellion – with their conquest by the Clans the problem would be magnified hundreds of times over?
There is no security coordination whatsoever- the story needs to be worked on?
In this first Invasion the Clans have the ability to take worlds - but they DO NOT have the ability to hold worlds where the majority of population per world are so against them - where are the books based upon "for example France WW2 or Vietnam" to demonstrate the massive problems the Clans are experiencing?
Plus given the level of losses their warriors should be experiencing during a partisan war due to irregular tactics their Sibko system of reinforcements would be near the breaking point within a very short period of time.
Clearly militarily the first invasion can only be considered a failure due to their lack of understanding IS societies (they are so blinkered they though the IS culture was the same as their-own, which will lead to massive problems in the future - Clearly they did not understand the Dragoons reports regarding the IS) - but given the Clans bullheaded nature they will never admit it!
The only possible solution therefore - rebuild how their army as to how is created (Sibko System) and how their new "auxiliary" forces are built - and establish a new type of dropship to transport these "auxiliary" forces - Whilst holding onto what you can within the IS by placing massive amounts of Mechs / Elementals and Fighters onto a limited number of worlds - and then in ten to twenty years when the new model army is manufactured restart the invasion.
The question is can the Clans even contemplate that their entire military needs to be revamped at this stage otherwise given IS change of tactics to Attrition Warfare (and Possibly Nuclear warfare when it comes to Warship Engagements) otherwise they will be steamrolled out of the IS within 5 years in they continue down this path, due to the massive loss of warrior personnel.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/06/20 06:48 PM)
|
ghostrider
02/06/20 08:57 PM
66.74.60.165
|
A complete lack of infantry, with 25 elementals?
But then there has never been much in the way of garrisoning a hostile world for the entire game. So why is it, that only the clans has this uproar about it?
The invasion of Towne showed that. The entire Terran March showed that. Almost even planet taken by an enemy has shown that.
Or, Gestapo Tactics? The Use of Fear and the firing squad ...
The combine had taken this approach through out the entire succession wars. So why is it an issue now? The Confederation has done some of this as well. So why is it an issue now?
Rewrite? Wait until rules are stable, then go from the expansion from Terra, and keep it consistent. This would destroy a lot of the issues with the 3025 era and beyond. But then the game is supposed to be about stompy mechs fighting each other, with occasional other things like tanks or infantry.
|
Requiem
02/07/20 04:23 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
A complete lack of infantry, with 25 elementals?
Yes, when you compare it to a Brigade – 1,626 to 3,976 troops.
Quote:
But then there has never been much in the way of garrisoning a hostile world for the entire game. So why is it, that only the clans has this uproar about it?
With regards to the Inner Sphere – many border worlds had accepted the change in government as what it came down to was a change in currency and holidays and to whom you sent your exports to …. as for the most part many Great Houses did not interfere with the running of newly captured worlds, this in turn provided for a more peaceful transition from one House to another.
However, the Clans with to actively change IS society into their way of life – A Caste System, Fostering (removing of children from their family home when they reach 13 so they can work in a factory), Removing social and family identity through removing a person’s last name, limiting education, treating them as indentured servants (Totalitarian System) rather than human beings (harsh penalties for minor infractions), the destruction of the weekend culture and important holidays, religion etc …..So, wouldn’t anyone fight against such a system when you come from a liberal society (F-C) and for even the DC this would be viewed as social vandalism?
As far as the IS considers the Clans are beyond evil – they are not Mongols they are Vandals …. With no regard whatsoever as to what they destroy.
Ghostrider, can you please elucidate regarding Towne as I do not understand this point.
Quote:
The combine had taken this approach throughout the entire succession wars. So why is it an issue now?
When was the last time you read this occurred within the IS …. 1st / 2nd Succession War even for the DC? But since then not at all.
So we have had a massive period of time where this has not occurred en mass within the IS.
Yet for some of the Clans (Jag’s) they take the view that this is normal SOP – just look at Turtle Bay and Edo for how they view how expendable human life is - Kentares Massacre all over again! The horror this image evokes is beyond the pale.
Quote:
Rewrite?
If not now when? …. If we were to bring in a more logical history Kerensky would never have left …. Killed by his own troops or put out to pasture … the exodus would never have been considered …. Kerensky’s sons would die in ignobility ….The Clans would never have existed … so No Wolf’s Dragoons etc …. No Wolverines ….. in all reality the Terran Hegemony would have returned ….
The idea that Kerensky would cut and run doesn’t hold water …. This is not in his “true” character!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
02/07/20 05:11 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The invasion of the world Towne by the DC, had the leaders of the invasion force being the type that was harsh with his trying to pacify Towne. One such instance is when the leader caught Cabellaros Comanches personnel and executed them on live TV.
But it does say that they were having issues patrolling the populace, as they hunted for the Comanches. Spreading out the little forces they had.
Using a warship, as bad as it is, it is not the same and genocide of a world. Now suggesting that was SOP for the clans, even for the Jaguars is a complete lie.
The warship captain was frowned upon and ordered to leave the IS by the Jaguars leadership. If this was standard operations, then why is Turtle Bay the only instance of orbital bombardment by the clans?
Using fear and a firing squad is pretty much how the DC tended to pacify worlds. The CC was only slightly better, as they did not run it as SOP, especially with FWL troops.
I guess the idea of someone changing because of trauma doesn't have any place in the idea that Kerensky decided that he had enough of his soldiers dying for the spoiled nobles that made up the council at that time. So instead of having more die because a war was brewing, and he knew the house lords would not do anything other then fight for the First Lord position, he took what he could and left. They had fought the periphery, and then Amaris. And yet, the lords stripped him of his position, in order to declare themselves lord of the SLDF. There would be no end to the war in Kerensky's lifetime. With that in mind, it is very logical that he would not cut and run as you suggest, but leave as being fed up with the political garbage going on, that would end up in the deaths of all his soldiers in war. No one would die of old age if the stayed.
|
Requiem
02/07/20 06:07 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
The invasion of the world Towne by the DC, had the leaders of the invasion force being the type that was harsh with his trying to pacify Towne. One such instance is when the leader caught Cabellaros Comanches personnel and executed them on live TV.
Refer sarna.net Cassie Suthorn – Events on Towne
“On April 18th, the 17th Recon's Camp Mariposa in Gunderland Province was attacked. The Towne Air Rangers attempted to hold off the full scale raid, but during the course of the battle, the Regiment's dependants were captured, including Colonel Camacho's lover, Diana Vasquez. The Regiment's Intelligence Officer, Gordon Baird had betrayed the regiment's base to spare their lives. However, Planetary Chairman Blaylock arranged for a firing squad and Diana was shot as a warning to Cassie and the Regiment to surrender or have other hostages killed.”
Then compare it with sarna.net Battle of Turtle Bay
“…. It would later become infamous as an example of the extreme brutality with which the Smoke Jaguars treated their conquered foes …. Perez ordered Beta Galaxy's WarShip, the Sabre Cat, into low orbit above the city and commanded it to open fire. Repeated strikes from the ship's autocannons and laser weapons bombarded the city until there was nothing left but smoking debris …. The orbital attack of the Jaguars leveled the city, killing several millions.”
How can a comparison be made?
Quote:
Now suggesting that was SOP for the clans, even for the Jaguars is a complete lie.
Technical Readout 3050 – who does this sound like? – Page 6 – “The use their captives as slaves…”
Turtle Bay – how quick was the elemental to take the head of the old man?
Sarna.net Clan Smoke Jaguar – Operation Revival - …. What stung more was their apparent inability to deal with Kurita partisans, as the people rose up to fight their new oppressive overlords …. Smoke Jaguar warriors proved incapable of managing the masses, instead resorting to wholesale butchery in response to any resistance.
And under Culture …”the Smoke Jaguars quickly established themselves as the most brutal and aggressive of the Clans …..the warrior caste's view that they were the epitome of Clan society and all others were beneath them …. Smoke Jaguars took it to the extreme, valuing them less and less as the years went on until they scorned their very existence. The harsh discipline maintained by the warrior caste meant that any transgression by the lower castes would be dealt with severely, as would infamously happen during the Londerholm Revolt during the Golden Century …. was easily the most violent and aggressive of all the Clans.”
Sounds like SOP for the Jaguars ….
Quote:
then why is Turtle Bay the only instance of orbital bombardment by the clans?
And yet what about the Jade Falcons threat upon - Zoetermeer - Clan Jade Falcon’s Nightlord Class Battleship, Emerald Talon?
Twice is twice too many – it shows the IS leaders they have propensity to use warships.
Quote:
Using fear and a firing squad is pretty much how the DC tended to pacify worlds.
4th SW – War of 3039 – where?
Quote:
… Kerensky ….
Duty … Honor ….. Your Oath ….
Cut and run … the TH had 600 plus settlements within a 80 -120 Light year radius … how many were there post 1st SW? How many Billions of people and Hundreds of worlds were gone forever ….
His duty was to the people of the IS … if he could no longer fulfill that duty he should have stepped down and given it to someone who could …
He, is a shell of his former self, and during the exodus he became a vindictive old mad and a Tyrant …
Both he and his son destroyed the once valiant SLDF and converted it into something Amaris would consider theirs!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/07/20 06:09 PM)
|
ghostrider
02/07/20 10:15 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Yet for some of the Clans (Jag’s) they take the view that this is normal SOP – just look at Turtle Bay and Edo for how they view how expendable human life is
This very much sounds like orbital bombardments were the SOP you were talking about. Not how they treated their captive populations.
As for the old man in Turtle Bay. How many other people did they kill? How quickly was the elementals to leave. Had they suspected the old man lied, they would have went after far more.
One man's freedom fighter, is another man's terrorist. Not saying the execution was right, but growing up in the clans, the warriors have the right to end the life of a non warrior if they do something so hideous, like bomb a cafe with their own people in it. In clan society, dezgra people, like the bomber, have no right to live.
Question. If you played Halo, have you written the company that makes it that they should change the fact the brute torture and eat people?
How about Star Craft?
Even Robotech has the invid destroy most of humanity.
How can you say an orbital bombardment was done twice, and suggest the Falcon one, was the second. There was not a single shot from the Falcons. Counting a threat as the actual action opens up a major can of worms that should never be opened. So you threaten someone, and you should be charged with attempted murder? This is what it sounds like you are saying.
How much information was given on the worlds taken by the DC? Most of the stories that deal with DC occupation has them being more violent then normal.
How many lives were lost when Katherine started killing people that caused the civil war? Oh wait. You are trying to suggest she didn't, so you can use her as a good person.
Out of all the settlements that the SLDF started with before Amaris killed Cameron, then see how many existed after Kerensky finally retook Terra. Kerensky used nukes as well as Amaris. And once the First Lord was dead, and the others dismissed him from protector of the SLDF, who was the one that he had an oath to? The people? Most of them went along with removing Kerensky. Those that wanted him to stay probably went with him into exile.
Interesting, as the description for an old mad tyrant, is what Katherine had become. As well as others. So what is the difference here, beside you want to turn Alexander Kerensky into a villain?
|
Requiem
02/07/20 11:11 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Original question:-
Quote:
Now suggesting that was SOP for the clans, even for the Jaguars is a complete lie.
Above response:
Quote:
Yet for some of the Clans (Jag’s) they take the view that this is normal SOP – just look at Turtle Bay and Edo for how they view how expendable human life is
What is the correct answer?
Ethics Theory – A Bystander’s Crime question “If someone is (for example) a witness to a murder he could have prevented without harming himself, is he as guilty as the perpetrator?”
Source - https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/magazine/a-bystanders-crime.html
Let us then apply this to the clans whist in the invasion corridor ….
If a Clan is witness to another Clans war-crimes to mass murder they could have helped prevent, are they as guilty as the perpetrator Clan?
Sarna.net Clan Smoke Jaguar – Operation Revival – Culture … Londerholm Revolt during the Golden Century …. 2912 … Precedence
Sarna.net Clan Smoke Jaguar – Operation Revival …. resorting to wholesale butchery in response to any resistance …..
All Clans are guilty by just doing nothing! …. And now Amaris’ Clans!
Quote:
How can you say an orbital bombardment was done twice, and suggest the Falcon one, was the second.
The threat was there! – within the Canon Story the 10th Donegal Guards’ C.O. Marshal Sarah Steiner believed the Clans would follow through with their threat as they did on Turtle Bay – so how are the Leaders of the IS supposed to take this? (a question that has yet to be answered)
They have no direct communication with the Clans except interpreting the actions of the warriors – go back to the Cuban Missile crisis ….
Question – if your unit was the second unit threatened with nuclear attack during earliest days of the Jihad by the WoB, would you take it as a bluff or reality? In this case, however, the Clans have used a WMD and they are threatening a second strike - can you take the risk they are bluffing?
Quote:
How much information was given on the worlds taken by the DC? Most of the stories that deal with DC occupation has them being more violent then normal.
Book page no please.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
02/08/20 12:20 AM
66.74.60.165
|
And which clan was at the bombardment of Turtle Bay? And with the clans, they do not police each other, as you suggest. Even the Jaguars thought it was wrong. But they don't punish someone for something like that. For some, it was a righteous thing. I don't agree with it, but that is how the Crusaders think.
I like how you leave out the sentence before the quote, that asks how warship bombardment is SOP? The answer is simple. There is no SOP for bombardment, even in the Jaguars. But that reduces the effect of the complaint. And again. The threat of use is not the same as the actual use of an action. By the way you talk, the governor should have called the bluff, as it was their job to resist the Falcons to the last man. The whole argument of partisans and such leads to this conclusion.
Yet with all the evil the Jaguars represent, you think that taking them out would not happen. The FC should have demanded the Falcons and Wolves be hit. Conflicting view points here.
So one nation uses chemical weapons, while another allied with it hasn't do so yet. Would you believe the allied nation would use the same weapons?
The question for the second unit nuked by WOB is poorly thought out. Time between the two incidences, as well as communications would need to happen. So hitting one city, even a minute before another, there would not be any real news about it. And different systems having it happen? Even less likely the second unit would know.
Maybe rereading the entire history of the game is in order. It seems you miss so much of the canon history, that I wonder if you just aren't trying to get into an argument or just say that the people who made the game are wrong. Yes. The same old answer to the same old argument.
Or is it just a few pages folded up to try and convince others the game needs to change to someone elses point of view?
|
Requiem
02/08/20 02:50 AM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
…. they do not police each other, as you suggest.
Then they are all complicit with regards to war crimes.
Quote:
I like how you leave out the sentence before the quote, that asks how warship bombardment is SOP? The answer is simple. There is no SOP for bombardment, even in the Jaguars.
Sarna.net Wiki Orbital Bombardment
“In the Wars of Reaving, Orbital Bombardments would become commonplace among Clan Space. “
If the Clans are willing to go to such extremes in the future then can it be said they had the willpower within the Clan Invasion Era?
Especially if DC and F-C destroy their warships with nuclear weapons?
Quote:
…. it was their job to resist the Falcons to the last man ….
Was it? … their duties include guarding and protecting people and properties under threat …. Not the wanton death of civilians to prolong an unwinnable battle ….
And partisans relates to resistance …..
Quote:
So one nation uses chemical weapons, while another allied with it hasn't do so yet. Would you believe the allied nation would use the same weapons?
The F-C didn’t when the CC used chemical weapons.
Quote:
The question for the second unit nuked by WOB is poorly thought out. Time between the two incidences, as well as communications would need to happen.
I however believe it is on target … what if you add the caveat that the second knew of the existence of the first use?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
02/08/20 12:56 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Ok. So if one nation in the NATO organization does something despicable, does that mean the rest are guilt of it?
How about a single state in a multi state nation? The best they can do is basically censor them, to just telling them not to do it again. It is not likely they will kick them out, nor start a war over it. They didn't do this in their history with things like the Falcons killing their own. They didn't do so when others committed their atrocities. So why would they do anything when the enemy is on the end of such an atrocity?
So again. The future has been written, and it is with this knowledge that the past must change to prevent it?
It can't possibly have anything to do with the fact they failed the invasion and looked like morons because of it? The home clans may not have let them live their actions down, and with the destruction of the Smoke Jaguars, shown their guaranteed victory over the rabble in the IS was because the Falcons weren't capable of doing so? Then to guard their own little fiefdoms in the home worlds, they resorted to the very thing you demanded of the FS?
Then a majority of battles shouldn't have been fought if the wanton death of civilians to prolong an unwinnable battle is the case. The story of heroes would never be the case, as all of them deal with unit fighting superior forces and winning. Yet the same enemy unit just destroyed a unit their size.
And you don't understand that your partisan actions are doing just that? Fighting the enemy in an unwinnable battle that does get the civilians hurt and killed. Sometimes by their own attacks. And then suggesting that civilians do that same, as to obey the enemy's directives in order to survive is treason, really shows this entire argument is not based on logic, but on the fact that you just want to argue.
An enemy uses a weapon once. In the case of the Falcons, it is an entirely different organization in a larger alliance, do you think they would do so a second time? Which the Falcons didn't fire a single shot from orbit. Not even a warning shot into an empty field.
WOB was poorly thought out as being the next terror of the IS. They had such a small force compared to the IS, and no real base outside the reach of the houses, the only way to negate some of that was the nukes and warships. It might have been better had they just hit one nation, then after beating it down, got into it with another one. Not most at once. And the BS jumps in tech? Those in Comstar should have known about the research being done, unless they just happened to advance the tech line a few hundred years in a few decades. If so, what does that say about Comstar holding Terra for so long and nothing. But then I don't play the game in that era. The tech can be released in other ways. Simple raids on the 'hidden' worlds for one. Comstar getting ahold of it, and handing it out to the others, or having some units with that tech, lose some units to a clan raid, and the IS finds and reverse engineers it.
Then again, the games we played, did have the IS get and build clan tech. The excuses of not doing so was beyond reason. Especially with the XXL engine costs.
|
Requiem
02/08/20 04:43 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
Ok. So if one nation in the NATO organization does something despicable, does that mean the rest are guilt of it?
In this case, if one SLDF Unit committed a war-crime, and was caught doing it, if the highest Ranked Officer within that sector does not bring them to justice then that Officer will be charged with that war-crime and ethically all SLDF units in that area will be painted with the same brush as the unit that committed the crime …..
It is not a win at any cost belief system …. It is HOW we win that truly matters. (…. and how we govern).….. to the infamy of their name and the ruination of their line, to this day they evoke horror … Nanjing, My Lai, Oradour-sur-Glane …
So why bring these topics into the Invasion of the Inner Sphere is you don’t want to vilify all the Clans with the same brush – Legally if Clan Smoke Jaguar commits a war crime under international law the il-Khan at the time will be held responsible and (if caught) can be brought before a war crimes tribunal as he/she is the Highest Ranked Officer within the entire OZ – Ethically all the Clans are responsible for the actions of the individual Clan.
However more often than not politics gets in the way of legality and ethicality of an issue …… as it did here within the IS invasion corridor.
In which demonstrates how far the former SLDF units have fallen when they became “The Clans”.
Quote:
Then to guard their own little fiefdoms in the home worlds, they resorted to the very thing you demanded of the FS
Please continue…
Quote:
And you don't understand that your partisan actions are doing just that? Fighting the enemy in an unwinnable battle that does get the civilians hurt and killed.
Within the Clan OZ the use of civilians for labor as well as the increasing tempo of partisan activity is clearly described in order to understand please refer to the following.
Please read …. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partisan_(military)
and …. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Wake
and ….. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour_under_German_rule_during_World_War_II
Quote:
An enemy uses a weapon once. In the case of the Falcons, it is an entirely different organization in a larger alliance, do you think they would do so a second time?
The question is NOT whether the Falcons or any other Clan will use an orbital bombardment?
The true question is … COULD they?
As a ruler if there is but 0.00000001% chance that they could / would do so again then they must take this as a certainty - action is therefore required to safeguard the lives and property of their citizens – in this case they have used it once and threatened to use it a second time, (I would also like to point out the fact that no one, within the Great Houses, knows what would would/could have happened if Sarah didn’t surrender her forces), so as a ruler of one of the Great Houses you must assume that they would have gone through with their treat – so you must treat it as two orbital bombardments!
That said as they did not have mobile naval weapons – pocket warships, dropships armed with Naval weapons etc – the only weapon within the armory that could put a dent in one of these monstrosities is the nuclear warhead and the only way of getting it to its target was the aerospace fighter.
Within the canon story of the Clans Invasion it is quite clear that this was never understood.
Quote:
….reverse engineers it ….
If the IS Great Houses can make it – they will make it – costs be damned. Parity of weapons systems (damage and range) / restriction of Clan’s weapons (range) has been identified by every military intelligence organization as one of the keys to winning the war.
So if you can do it, you will do it – why go through the trouble of …..
Wolcott, sarna.net wiki Wolcott – “… The Smoke Jaguars were defeated thanks to the defenders' battle skills as well as the terrain advantage of the planet's wooded marshes”. Ie. restricting the range of their advanced weapons.
Twycross, sarna.net wiki Battle of Twycross – “…it would help neutralize the range advantage the Clan 'Mechs had enjoyed.”
A second point - that was never understood / lost within the canon story of the Clan Invasion.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/08/20 06:47 PM)
|
ghostrider
02/09/20 01:28 AM
66.74.60.165
|
In the clans eyes, the Jaguars didn't do anything illegal. It was a bit harsher then what they thought it should, but not illegal.
The DC and CC have used chemical weapons during wars with the FS. Does that mean the FS is responsible, as they seen it happen?
As you said. the clans no longer uphold the SLDF's views. They have used warships in the past on their own, so why would it not be in the arsenal for dealing with the IS?
I think you are the only one to see it as something other then to anger the players into wanting to take out the Jaguars, and to that extent, the rest of the clans. It is not something that requires a full rewrite, as it is part of the game. Again. If you don't like it, don't play it.
Your beloved Wolverines were an example of the clans doing what ever they could to hold their lands, or take more. With this, they used nukes on their own, so it is possible they will use it in the IS. So they could have threatened all the worlds with it, but didn't. They wanted a ground war to prove themselves. The Snow Ravens being the main clan that is space orientated, and they want fighter battles, not warships pounding worlds. And yes. The Ravens were not part of the invasion.
And the IS has used slave labor before as well. Not for long, but it is there. They even pressed their own citizens to do so at times. But this only shows that your complaint is far later then it should be.
The whole argument of they could describes the entire first succession war, where nukes were being used instead of trying to take the world with ground forces. So by that definition, the FS shouldn't have survived, and the others would have relied on nukes perpetually, as they were the only things to guarantee that ground troops would not land on their worlds. That leads to more extreme interpretations in the future. Only the supply of uranium used for the nukes would determine when it would stop. Then the meer threat of using them would cause worlds to surrender to others.
The ability of the IS to reduce the range of the clans was limited, as they were not able to do as much as you think. The one base was so fortified, that the clans would require a galaxy or more to take. Except the roof of the main CIC. Elementals dropped on that spot and destroyed the CIC. No matter how much you plan and build, the enemy can drop on your side of the traps and such.
Also, it seems to be missed, that the clans had the advantage at short range as well. The right configurations would be worse then the range fights. The Warhawks one configuration was like the Rifleman IIC. Four LPL with TC attached. And the clans loved ammo weapons, as they were used to short combats. Massed SRMs would be one way, as well as heavy ultras and lbx cannons. And that close in, the Gauss Rifle become murderous. Not likely to be missing anything that isn't moving faster then 8 or so hexes at a time.
Another note, the clans ER weapons had another factor with them. They did more damage as well. But at least the IS had the ability to hit the clans with the shorter ranges.
|
Requiem
02/09/20 03:24 AM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
In the clans eyes, the Jaguars didn't do anything illegal.
And this makes it right? So as long as it is acceptable with regards to my culture I can do any horrendous act?
Kali Liao – sarna.net wiki Kali Liao – “She ordered the Black May attacks in 3062, for which she was tried and convicted in a Star League court and sentenced to internal exile on Highspire.”
Quote:
Your beloved Wolverines were an example of the clans doing what ever they could to hold their lands, or take more. With this, they used nukes on their own …
Sarna.net wiki Clan Wolverine
“Unbeknownst to Clan Wolverine, Clan Widowmaker operatives had stolen one of the nuclear devices from the Brian Cache, and prepared it for detonation in their capital city of Great Hope. Khan Jason Karrige then activated the device when he, the ilKhan, and Clan Widowmaker forces approached the city.”
“As Karrige had hoped and planned for, the blame fell on the shoulders of the Wolverines.”
*** SPOILER ALERT ***
Brian Lee Pardoe, Betrayal of Ideals
Setting: Grand Fleet Flagship Rough Rider, Uninhabited System Zulu 11981 TZ, Along the Exodus Road, Several Jumps from Clan Space, 18 December 2823.
Page. 177 – Nicholas talking to McEvedy, ….”…I know what happened on Dehra Dun was not your bidding, but that of Merrell’s people ….”
Quote:
And the IS has used slave labor before as well. Not for long, but it is there.
Sarna.net wiki Rim Worlds Republic
“….taking slaves (especially women)….. When Hector Rowe founded the Rim Worlds Republic, Apollo possessed an extremely small population - only Rowe's militants and slaves taken prisoner during Rowe's flight were present ….. Hector Rowe's granddaughter, Arabella, would later emancipate the Republic's slaves altogether.”
And the Smoke Jaguars within the IS?
Quote:
The ability of the IS to reduce the range of the clans was limited
Pre Huntress yea I would agree. Limited to whatever salvage they could get off the battlefield.
Post Huntress + some time to set up and get all factories working – No, no I wouldn’t agree.
Then there is also the defection of Bears and cats …..
Quote:
Elementals dropped on that spot ….
A completely overused tactic that after being used once becomes pointless ….
To do this first you must gain air superiority;
Second you must hope the IS have not zeroed in on that point with their artillery – or are using their artillery like German WW2 88’s – originally designed for anti-aircraft – however when one bright spark decided to use it as an anti-tank artillery piece is when it really showed its flexibility in battle.
So what would happen to a drop-ship if you dropped the sights and fired for effect – one very large hole in the side of it!
Third, what would happen if you ran land wires to the CIC and allowed all communications to come out of the building … the elementals come, they break in …. then you detonate the entire building and the Dropship above the building collects the entire blast …. Adios Muchachos!
Fourth, what if the entire inside has armor plates so thick that none of their weapons will work on it …. Elemental Prison! ….
Quote:
Also, it seems to be missed, that the clans had the advantage at short range as well.
And yet extra short physical weapons never came into the equation …
Shields … axes …. Hatchets …. Swords ….how good are they when it gets this close and one on one no longer works and the IS are using a 2:1 or 3:1 bias – no rules …. No quarter asked or received ….
Remember what Kai did with a single Hatchetman within the Gash?
Where is the Clans Battlefield dirty tricks book, whereas, the IS dirty tricks book is encyclopedia in size.
I would also like to point out that during the Clan Invasion none of the Clan Invaders used Vehicles, VTOLS, Conventional Fighters / Bombers. If they underbid or divide their forces these forces can pounce on the Clans units and by sheer numbers alone – attrition warfare – turn them to scrap especially when the majority have AC20s.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
02/09/20 01:07 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Have you actually looked at the countries in the real world. There are some hideous things that go on, and those around them do nothing to stop it. Just lip service, as to do anything means war. With Kali doing so, none of the great houses did anything other then try Kali after the war to retake St. Ives was over. They did not step in to stop it at all.
The Wolverines did not use it, but the fact someone did should have been the context of that statement.
The fact that the IS not taking clan tech from Huntress is an established fact that it was completely stupid and illogical. Most agree the IS should have taken and built that tech. The game would have suffered from it, as future wars would not allow a single mech to take down 2 or more others if they were set up with weapons that could take each other down in a hit or two, outside of the floating crit.
First off Tried and True tactics are used as often as they can be. Part of SOP.
Second, air superiority isn't needed to do so. You just need to keep the enemy's air distracted. As they can not be engaged in a dog fight, then just turn and burn to intercept what would be taken as bombs dropped on the roof, until they changed course and even then, that didn't explode on contact.
Third off, it would be stupid for the Artillery inside the building to have sighted a spot directly on top of the housing they are stationed in.
Fourth, the idea of blowing up the CIC would have to be planned out before the attack, and since no one has precognition, that isn't likely. It was the ultimate bunker in the eyes of the commander and LC. Also, given the fact that the story is supposed to follow Battletech rules, the artillery would have to be outside of the building, as well as being able to fire at a moving target. Artillery is designated to hit solid ground hexes. The dropships came in, hovered, and dropped the elementals. So anti air fire should have been going in the first place. Not sure if anti missile systems would have fired on the dropping elementals, as I don't know their targeting program.
Funny thing about having the awesome doors. Most of the time the walls that hold the door aren't made as well. Such as bullet proof glass. The frames and walls tend to be more forgiving.
There were not that many units with axes and such. Retrofitting them would require removal of other equipment.
Yeah. The writers gave Kai the ability to blow up a fusion reactor in an explosion that doesn't exist, in order to detonate the charges in the walls. So that whole part and anything afterwards is BS going by the rules.
Now the AC 20s have the issue that only a very few mechs and vehicles use them. And once the clans realize what they are going into, the clan ultras and lbx canons would be used. Massed srms would be completely devastating, and really nasty as the normal srms in the clans is half weight. Then again pulse lasers come into their own here as well. Depending on how close range it really is, the clan medium pulse lasers outrange IS medium range items. So 10 hexes means you can pick off IS mechs, while they need LL and bigger to hit back. But it does give you a chance to at least fire something at the clan mechs.
|
Requiem
02/09/20 04:10 PM
1.158.235.15
|
The absence of assistance / protection does not remove our ethical obligation. As stated previously … politics gets in the way of ethics.
Quote:
…. none of the great houses did anything other then try Kali after the war to retake St. Ives was over. They did not step in to stop it at all.
Politics.
Quote:
The Wolverines did not use it, but the fact someone did should have been the context of that statement.
*** Spoiler Alert ****
Blaine Lee Pardoe, Betrayal of Ideals
Continent Number Three
Gamma 1551 AV, Codenamed “Barbados”
Along the Exodus Road
7 July 2824
Pages. 208-210
Nicholas made sure the truth never reached the light …. That another Clan, Widow makers, believing the Wolverines posed a threat <and because they were the most like the old Star League> to all the other Clans …. And that Nicholas was complicit in the genocide …. Khan Karrige was then executed at the command of Nicholas. And all Khans who were there to hear and watch forgot what they heard and what they saw!
Quote:
The game would have suffered from it
Was the game that bad back in 3025?
Technological development continues – there could have been Clan ER PPC (Mk 2.) then (Mk. 3)
Whereas the IS was still on Clan ER PPC.
Realistic and believable. Vs. annoying, stupid and unbelievable …
Quote:
First off Tried and True tactics are used as often as they can be. Part of SOP.
Once this becomes SOP, you will loose – too predicable!
Air distracted? …. Isn’t this the definition of air superiority over the battlefield?
Artillery ….. who said I would put it in the building? … when a Drop-ship hovers are they not stationary?
Blowing up CIC … above you espouse the value constantly using the same tactic over and over again …. But then when a trap is established you swill suddenly not use the same tactic that has worked over and over …. cant have it both ways.
Quote:
There were not that many units with axes and such.
And yet if you put all the models with them together in one unit?
And is it so bad to retrofit?
Quote:
AC/20
… only a very few mechs and vehicles use them …. And yet how many can make them,( 11-12 Major Corporations) and how many vehicles can be retrofitted with them?
Question how many targets can a Mech warrior aim at at one time? Vs. How many vehicles on the board can aim at one target at one time (especially if they are in your rear)?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
02/09/20 04:50 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The concept of someone watching an action and not doing anything is negated by politics? So that can be used for the others to ignore what happened on Turtle Bay. And you know what. Politics is the basis for the other clans to ignore it. They are not under our command, or dealing with us, so we won't interfer.
Weither Nicholas surpressed who did it, doesn't negate the fact, it was done. That was the point. Not who but was done.
Why not have SL ERPPC mk 1. Then SL ERPPC mk 2? The idea of a heavy and light version of the ppc could have come out sooner with this, as someone might find a way to increase the damage or range while researching it. The capacitor could have come out sooner as well.
But screwing up the game comes down to armor. Where it should improve as well, the game becomes frustrating when a single mistake causes you to die. A single shot taking out all the armor on one location and reducing your mech to scrap.
And the developers screwed up on this, as the SL armor was supposed to be superior to the survivors of the 3rd war. Ferrous Fiber can't be it. It might give more protection per ton, but you are still limited to double the internals for the spot.
Air distraction and air superiority isn't the same thing. A distraction is pulling the defenders attention away from one spot. Superiority means they can't even get anything up to challenge you.
And SOP going to lose? There are so many things that are SOP that you know have to happen, yet not much you can do to counter it. Orbital drops for one thing. Fighters can do something but they might be dealing with enemy fighters.
Here is a very necessary SOP in a fight. Firing your weapons to hit the enemy. Some tactics are SOP like the pincer move or strike and retreat.
So bad to retrofit? Losing ranged weapons, heat sinks, armor and such is a good thing? There is no guarantee you will be able to use the axes and such. And with some units, you have to actually connect it into the skeleton, as they have no hand actuators.
And than you have these units that have to face the enemy in an environment that the axes are useless. So now you have even more issues. Not saying they don't have their uses, it is just not a good idea to have that many.
A paradox just came up. The clans never threatened the civilians, yet the warship did.
The issue with the ac20 is ammo. If you don't have a continuous supply, you are dead in the water. You can do some major damage when you hit, but at 5 shots per ton, and needing to be without 9 hexes to even fire is a problem with most battles.
To my knowledge, a mech warrior can aim at how ever many target as he has weapons. Not a smart idea, but it is possible.
But with the horde idea, it becomes the horde of the VTOLS. The Yellowjacket comes to mind. Gauss rifle on a VTOL. I forget who said this, but it is very true.
This may well be why the writers didn't bring in the hordes of vehicles. It would have stopped the clans cold.
|
Requiem
02/10/20 12:44 AM
1.158.235.15
|
To the Clans … War is an abstract concept …I wonder if they even know what the word means?
So, it is only when they really come toe to toe with a competent leader within the IS do they truly realize the Horror.
Quote:
The concept of someone watching an action and not doing anything is negated by politics? So that can be used for the others to ignore what happened on Turtle Bay.
The problem with this is samurai politics and the idea of ‘Face’ …. In this instance if a leader DOES NOT retaliate they will loose ‘Face’ – and thus the respect of their generals – so at this stage you should expect someone to send an assassin to kill the leader, so that they can be replaced with someone WHO WILL retaliate ….
Ignoring a problem will not make it go away …. Ethics remains constant …. Remember it is not who wins but how you win.
Quote:
Weither Nicholas surpressed who did it, doesn't negate the fact, it was done. That was the point. Not who but was done.
So the Widow-makers get off ‘Scott free” where as the Wolverines face total genocide …. All so Nicholas could stamp his authority on all of the remaining clans …..
SOP – does not mean doing something incredibly stupid!
Retrofits are for those that can best use the changes to their weapons package.
Quote:
A paradox just came up. The clans never threatened the civilians, yet the warship did.
Clans and civilians …. Refer Alt Universe: Operation Revival (Mk 2) – First Invasion
And just from the Jade Falcon history …….
First Wave
IS non-warrior castes required hash penalties to keep them in line – executions were required to shock them from the notion they could utilize partisan activities …..
Third Wave
their ability to resupply units in the field is severely strained and an outbreak or rebellions on previously conquered worlds requires more forces to be held back for garrison duty ….
Quote:
The issue with the ac20 is ammo.
Not really, if you have a good logistics officer, together with a multiple forward ammunition dumps – problem reduced.
Quote:
This may well be why the writers didn't bring in the hordes of vehicles. It would have stopped the clans cold.
Agree.
And this is why the cannon history does not make-sense …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
02/10/20 02:25 AM
66.74.60.165
|
Wasn't talking about DC population with the ignoring Turtle Bay. The rest of the IS learned about it, and did nothing to help repulse the invaders. Not even trying to get passage thru the area around Terra to get troops and supplies to them.
Actually, it does matter who wins. They get to write history, even if it is a lie. Also, the are the ones to survive and now control. How you win has moral issues, but in the end, most are worried about themselves, friends and family. Nature doesn't have quarter given.
Yet the Widowmakers ended up being absorbed by the Wolves. So ironic justice? They killed Nicholas, and was in turn killed. The Wolverines are not the only entity that bore the accusations of others.
In a fight, the Falcons did say come out of your bases or we kill this town. They were ruthless in making sure the freeborns knew who was in charge. This is pretty much how they did things in the home worlds.
Logistics has to have the ability to supply the troops. Dropping the units on a clan held world, means you might only have what you bring. Say 4 Hunchbacks on a Leopard dropship. Only 5 tons are ammo would be available besides what is loaded into the mechs ammo bay. Some worlds don't make the ammo, though they could retool to do so. But moving it is the problem.
|
Requiem
02/10/20 06:40 AM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
The rest of the IS learned about it, and did nothing to help repulse the invaders.
DC – at war;
F-C – at War;
FRR – at War;
ComStar – collaborating;
CC – if you have them in you game, just watching <trying to find anyone who could get them Clan Tech?>
FWL – supplying everyone with refit packages, at a reasonable price!
This is why I believe that during the year of peace (which should have been called the year of preparedness) when all the House Lords are called together by the Dragoons this is where and when the new Star League and the SLDF should have been reformed.
If you had commandos operating within the clan OZ, and they had access to Black Boxes, then ComStar will find themselves at this time in it deep! – This is where all the house lords would ask ComStar as to an explanation as to their acolytes actions <my bet is they would also have found an acolyte willing to testify against the First Circuit>
As for CC and FWL – the ability to obtain advance tech would bring them on board – if all the others have access they could find themselves behind the others quickly due to what they can get off the Clans.
<Isn’t self interest a wonderful motivator?>
Quote:
Actually, it does matter who wins. They get to write history, even if it is a lie
It is not about how it is written … it is about how you won … you win with dignity, honor, treating the conquered with respect you have a chance of integrating them (the conquered people) into your empire …. You win by destroying everything and treating everyone as a slave, the war will never end the resistance will go on from one generation to the next. The death toll and the level of barbarism by both sides will increase year in year out … you will never have peace, you will never be able to integrate these people into your empire … the hate will be passed down from one generation to the next increasing in intensity each year …
Quote:
Nature doesn't have quarter given.
Nature does not have intelligence …nature does not remember (you hope!) … nature does not have the strong emotions humans put into everything!
Quote:
Yet the Widowmakers ended up being absorbed by the Wolves. So ironic justice? They killed Nicholas, and was in turn killed. The Wolverines are not the only entity that bore the accusations of others.
Symmetry? ….. serendipity? ….. kismet? …. Karma?
Quote:
They were ruthless in making sure the freeborns knew who was in charge.
And when reading sarna.net wiki Clan Jade Falcon ….
The first wave
Unfortunately the first wave also exposed one apparent vulnerability in the Jade Falcon war plan: the defenders rarely had the good grace to stop resisting their Clan overlords once the battle concluded.
The second wave
…. serious issues in their initial plan. Increasingly larger numbers of units were held back in order to quell uprisings
the third wave
the problems which had begun cropping up at the start of the invasion had become more pronounced … outbreak of rebellions on previously conquered worlds required more forces to be held back for garrison duty.
the fourth wave
the disastrous Battle of Twycross
"The Culling", all those who had questioned the creation of Clan society or the Jade Falcons' role within it were dealt with harshly. The ringleaders were executed and their bodies put on public display.
The seizure of all Widowmaker assets by the Wolves would make that Clan more powerful, potentially causing other Clans to pay more heed to their dangerously liberal ideas.
Many of these colonists however balked at the caste-based restrictions placed on them, seeking greater freedoms in order to operate more productively. Such blasphemous ideas did not sit well with the Jade Falcon leadership, and disputes between the warrior caste and civilian castes grew among these new colonies. Events threatened to get out of control when a Jade Falcon colony petitioned the Grand Council for permission to join another Clan - preferably Clan Wolf. The Jade Falcon Khans acted swiftly, decisively, and harshly. Military units were deployed to all civilian colonies in the Kerensky Cluster to seize control and kill any civilians who openly rebelled.
And look what that gained them? Isn’t it amazing that those Clans who respected their non-warrior caste members and treated them with more respect have a stronger economy and a stronger military than those who threat them poorly.
Quote:
Logistics has to have the ability to supply the troops.
Dropping units onto Clan held worlds means selecting the correct Mechs – majority energy weapons might be a good first step if you are going to be there for a prolonged period of time.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/10/20 06:41 AM)
|
ghostrider
02/10/20 11:21 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The FWL was NOT supplying the others when Turtle Bay happened. It was during the Dragoon meeting that they finally did.
How you win isn't the big thing. How you treat the enemy after they surrender is. WWII ended with nukes. As the U.S. didn't treat the populace like crap afterwards, there wasn't so much friction. For some, they will never give up the fight. Most of those tend to use others to do the combat portion of it.
Ok. Talking about ac 20 carriers, and the statement of logistics has to have the ability to supply the troops, then the response is selecting the correct mechs- majority energy weapons comes back. The example of the Leopard and 4 Hunchbacks should have made that even more clear.
Not sure how that was missed.
|
Requiem
02/10/20 07:06 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
The FWL was NOT supplying the others when Turtle Bay happened. It was during the Dragoon meeting that they finally did.
Officially or Unofficially – would any corporation give up the chance at vast profit during the Clan’s Invasion when the F-C , DC and FWL would pay (at a premium) for refit packages.
Could the FWL government stop it when they (members in the government) are also would be making a small fortune off the war at the same time?
and whilst the Corporations are making a profit what would the Government’s Taxation Department be?
So, doubtful.
Quote:
How you win isn't the big thing. How you treat the enemy after they surrender is. WWII ended with nukes. As the U.S. didn't treat the populace like crap afterwards, there wasn't so much friction.
People have long memories.
As stated previously, the nukes DID NOT end the war, the introduction of the Russian forces did!
Plus they were ordered to surrender by the Emperor (A living God at that time).
Quote:
AC20 ….Not sure how that was missed.
No, not missed at all …
Vehicles in defense can have ammo resupply bases established prior to the fight with the Clans – in order to continue the fight – ie. attacking the Clans in waves.
‘Mechs on another world (controlled by the Clans) do not / may not have the chance to resupply their consumables as much as they need to – hence the need for an above average number of energy weapons whist on extended behind the lines duty.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
02/10/20 10:27 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Nicholas made sure the truth never reached the light …. That another Clan, Widow makers, believing the Wolverines posed a threat <and because they were the most like the old Star League> to all the other Clans …. And that Nicholas was complicit in the genocide …. Khan Karrige was then executed at the command of Nicholas. And all Khans who were there to hear and watch forgot what they heard and what they saw!
This is a rewrite of history. The Widowmakers had spies that found the nukes in a cache. Then stole them after Nicholas said that no one clan should control that cache.
As Karrige had hoped and planned for, the blame fell on the shoulders of the Wolverines. The ilKhan commanded Clan Snow Raven to take the battle to the Wolverines on Circe as he planned the ultimate punishment: the Trial of Annihilation. Clan Snow Raven's attempt to use a nuclear weapon on the remaining Wolverine forces backfired horribly when the nuclear-equipped aerospace fighter was shot down by the Bismark, a mothballed WarShip reclaimed by Wolverine saKhan Franklin Hallis. The activated nuclear weapon detonated in an airburst over the Snow Raven's capital of Dehra Dun. This too would be blamed on Clan Wolverine.
So another inaccuracy here.
Edited by ghostrider (02/10/20 10:31 PM)
|
Requiem
02/11/20 12:17 AM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
This is a rewrite of history.
Please obtain and read the truth ….Blaine Lee Pardoe’s Betrayal of Ideals – Nicholas made sure to re-write history as he wanted. The truth is a very good story – Blaine should be very proud of this book.
The truth is far more exciting – as there is far more within this book than was ever considered before.
This is a must have book if you want to understand Nicholas, McEvedy and this era ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
02/11/20 11:50 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The book Betrayal of Ideals is a retcon.
The original story was the Snow Ravens were the ones sent to punish the Wolverines. Not the Widowmakers.
It would have been nice to know the type of warship used to take out the fighter, since most of them didn't have anti fighter weapons, and capital weapons can't hit a fighter. Not a fighter, but a warship took it down.
Another hole?
Nothing in the original books suggested anything like this.
And Pardoe seems to be one of those that distorts a lot of the rules to make the story sound better, then has the canon version retcon it into the game.
And he is one of those that still writes that fusion engines explode.
|
Requiem
02/11/20 02:30 PM
1.158.235.15
|
*** Spoiler Alert - Betrayal of Ideals - Pg 147 – 52 ***
Dehra Dun
22October 2823
Clan Wolverine – Texas Class Battleship – Bismark
Clan Snow Raven – Avalanche
Sarna.net wiki Clan Snow Raven Touman – Avalanche – Sovetskii Soyuz Class Heavy Cruiser
Angel Flight - Raven Actual – armed with nuclear weapon
Bismark fired naval lasers at Angel One ….however, payload was dropped and detonated off-target … detonated as an airburst over Dehra Dun. (Rather than that of the Wolverine forces 40Km north-east of Dehra Dun).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
02/13/20 12:00 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Here is a thought for you. The complaint about the clans making kingdoms in the IS may well have started from Katherine.
She would have shown Vlad just how much power was available to those that took it.
When other clans, especially the Falcon leaders seen it, they decided it was for their best interest to do so as well. The Bears looked more like they wanted away from clan politics, but could have added to the allure of having a place away from the other annoying clans and their bickering ways.
|
Requiem
02/13/20 04:35 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
The complaint about the clans making kingdoms in the IS may well have started from Katherine.
Then why have invasion Corridor to start with that are garrisoned by Clan Forces?
If all you needs was a supply corridor all the way to Terra why not limit the Corridor the no more than three worlds wide and then keep on advancing forward as much as possible as quick as possible – rather than have a broad front have a “stiletto” frontal approach?
Sorry no – every Clan was looking for their own Empire, right from the get go!
The biggest unanswered question is again logistics – How are you going to hold such a vast territory of such scope if you do not have the available manpower to hold it?
It is clear the Clans believed that the IS society was the same as theirs – that the worker serfs would just rollover when conquered and do whatever their new lords demanded of them with no trouble whatsoever.
What they got was something altogether different.
As for the majority of IS people converting to Clan way of life – highly unrealistic – there will always be some but the majority would fight on for generations.
What is also clear is the Clan 3150 maps make no real sense whatsoever – again! <suspending belief yet again>
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
02/13/20 06:57 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Maybe having the invasion corridor had something to do with guarding your back as well as supply lines? Something any smart military would do.
Well if the clans had been successful, the other home clans may well have been ready to move in. Then again, having a large swath does allow you to change supply routes with a greater success of being unfound.
What is the response to the question that Katherine may have been responsible for the clans kingdoms?
|
Requiem
02/13/20 10:04 PM
1.158.235.15
|
Quote:
Maybe having the invasion corridor had something to do with guarding your back as well as supply lines? Something any smart military would do.
Well we will never know as logistics were never written into the game! And if they were, given all available information, it would be incredibly one sided towards the Clans.
So you will have to make your own logistics fleet schedule / inventory per fleet as well as route taken for the entire war.
Then add in a force (like my Fenrir Units) to hunt them down and then see what happens next.
Quote:
Well if the clans had been successful, the other home clans may well have been ready to move in.
If approved by the ilKhan ….?
However, wouldn’t it be more like the Clans to Bid / undergo trials for their position on the second Invasion of the Inner Sphere, just as they did for the First Invasion?
Followed by even a third and Fourth invasion?
Quote:
having a large swath does allow you to change supply routes with a greater success of being unfound.
Small or large the chance of detection is the same.
Quote:
What is the response to the question that Katherine may have been responsible for the clans kingdoms?
As stated above – not believable – the Clans wanted their empire from the get go.
Question – what makes fighting for a Totalitarian Force like the Clans so desirable, given who and what they truly are, and what they believe in, and what they force upon others to believe in?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
|
|
Extra information
|
1 registered and 57 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 142653
|
|
|
|
|
|
|