Requiem
02/22/20 05:53 PM
1.158.235.15
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Thinks to consider regarding Camelot Command
Question: How Many SLDF Naval Vessels are within each Squadron?
SLDF Designation of Individual Fleets can be found under
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force#Naval_Command
However no real numbers are includes as per as standard Squadron …. Best guess then?
A Note on SLDF Naval Numbers can be found at
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Essay:_SLDF_Naval_Doctrine
Aegis Class – 100
Sovvetskii Soyuzes – 400
Congress – 400
Quixotes – 250
Volgas – 200
Potemkins - 100
Texas – 70
McKennas – 280
Approximately 1,800 ships
The Number of Naval Commands can be found under
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Star_League_Defense_Force_Commands_-_Naval_Commands
Containing …..
Four Flotillas
Twenty One Fleets
So does this mean individual fleets could be as large as 90 warships and squadrons as large as 30 at any one time?
Camelot Command
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Camelot_Command
“It had been used as the homeport of the Star League's Twelfth Fleet for capital ship repairs, refitting, and supply during actions against the Rim Worlds Republic and rogue elements during the Star League era.”
12th Fleet (SLDF)
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/12th_Fleet_(SLDF)
and is made up of
125th Pursuit Squadron
126th Persuit Squadron
129th Reconnaissance Squadron
Supply action rate at 50% of the fleet at one time – 45 vessels
Repair and Refitting rate at 20% of the fleet at one time – 18 vessels – 18 dry-docks
The size of the station to service such a fleet must have been in magnitude of 20-30 times that given within the source materials – the warehouses alone must have been incredibly vast – and the stockpliles of materials must also have been incredibly vast (and impossible to remove everything). There must have been vast amounts of stored equipment not only for the Navy but also for the Army (‘Mechs, vehicles, infantry equipment etc) - in addition being the 12th Fleets CIC – the amount of information stored within their computer mainframe must have been equally as vast.
I would also conjecture the station’s armament must have been incredibly destructive - equal to that of many Battleships in its own right.
There is no way the F-C would relinquish such a prize one held by them – the forces that they would commit to hold such a prize would be staggering.
Also the forces the Falcons would commit to gain such a prize would be equally staggering.
What we are looking at is the largets Naval Battle in the Clan Invasion ….
The entire Clan Jade Falcon Warship fleet Versus an unknown number of F-C aerospace wings (armed with nuclear warheads) and dropships; Nuclear Mines; Drones and the Camelot Command’s own defenses (increased sensor range to that of the Falcon’s Warships) to be fought within a nebula environment (restricted sensor range of Falcon Warships?).
To be followed by a massive invasion by Mechs and Elementals …..
Here is a book that is missing from all our libraries ….. if only a little more thought had been given this battle would have made a more fitting battle than that of Twycross for Victor Steiner Davion to command - 10th Lyran Guards, the complete Kell Hounds plus others in a desperate battle against the Falcons to hold onto Camelot. (The symbolism of this would not have been lost Arthur Vs Mordred – F-C Vs. The Falcons) – with everyone (F-C) participating in the battle receiving a special medal “Excalibur”.
This battle would have made for a new Trafalgar!
If only …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/23/20 12:24 AM
1.158.235.15
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Setting the scene:-
September 3050 - Camelot Command Rediscovered – First Somerset Strikers;
Adam Steiner and his core Somerset Strikers gain access to the CIC of Camelot Command prior to the arrival of the pursuers under the command of Star Commander Pytor.
Falcon Drop-ship is beaten back by Camelot’s First Line of Defense, their formidable drone complement.
Adam, dispatches Hawk Hawkins to contact F-C CIC – notifying them of their find within the nebula whilst he and his exec remain behind defending the station.
Pytor, notifies the Falcons Khan as to what he has found …. Hawkins, notifies the F-C CIC what the Strikers have found ….
<Background Information: - May - Turtle Bay; September – Zoetermeer – to get rid of Nuclear weapons in this game as a retaliatory weapon against Clan Warships at this stage will be introduced to the IS. As allowing the Clans to have a free-reign on Warships for such a long period of time is wrong in my opinion – Thus I believe the IS Warship program should have commenced approximately 3040 – thus by 3050 IS ships should be star ting to come off the slip-ways and in numbers – Note. F-C now controls all slipways in Lyran, Suns and the former Confederation space – all F-C ships will be sent to Camelot for its defence>
The Race:-
Both sides are now in a race to form a task force of sufficient size to hold / take the facility … However due to the Camelot Commands unique defenses (Naval Capital Weapons and Drones) the decision is made to allow the Navy to bid for the honor as well as a small unit (due to the belief it is being held by only a small unit (1st Somerset Strikers) to take the station.
However due the time in getting the Naval forces in place, this allowed Victor the time he needed to get in place first as he diverted his force from Twycross to that of Camelot Command.
Arriving two weeks before the Clans – Relieving Adam Steiner, Victor took command …..
His plan ….. defense in depth ….
First Line of defense – Drones and HE Mines;
Second Line of dense – Aerospace Assets armed with Ship killer HE missiles;
Third Line of defense – Assault drop-ships;
Fourth Line of defense – Close support aerospace assets; and
Fifth Line of defense – Camelot Command – naval weapons and internal defensive forces.
The First Battle for Camelot: Early to Mid October
Clan Jade Falcon
CJF Janice Hazen Aegis-class (Heavy Cruiser) – 20 Fighters
CJF Frost Falco Aegis-class (Heavy Cruiser) - 20 Fighters
Delta Galaxy
7th Talon Cluster – 4x Trinaries, including 1 elemental star, 1 Omni fighter star
Versus:-
Fed-Com
10th Lyran Guards - ‘Mech 1x Reinf. Regiment (132), Armor 5xRegiments (540), Infantry 6xRegiments (5,964), Aerospace 2xWing (40)
9th FedCom RCT – ‘Mech 1xRegiment (120), Armor 3xRegiments (324), Infantry 5xRegiments (4,970), Aerospace 2xWing (40)
Kell Hounds – ‘Mech 2xRegiments (240)
1st Sommerset Strikers – Lance (4)
Fed-Com Naval Assets (the only complete warship in proximity to assist Victor’s Task Force)
FCW Victory - Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser – 36 Fighters
Outcome -
The Falcons will loose both of their warships due – 7th Talon Cluster will be forced to retreat.
Victor realizes that the Falcons will call for reinforcements and sends out a request - due to the nature of the Station a vast Task Force is placed at his disposal.
Infuriated with their loss the Falcon’s Khan assembles an overwhelming fleet and military force to exterminate the defending force ……
The Clans ….. The Khan assembles Warship Fleet from the 20 warships available ….
CJF Falcon's Nest Texas-class (Battleship) – 40 fighters
CJF Jade Aerie Black Lion-class (Battle Cruiser) – 18 fighters
CJF Hawker Sovetskii Soyuz-class (Heavy Cruiser) – 20 Fighters
CJF Jade Talon Aegis-class (Heavy Cruiser) – 20 fighters
CJF White Talon Aegis-class (Heavy Cruiser) – 20 fighters – Total 118 fighters
Delta Galaxy
1st Falcon Striker Cluster – Command Star, 3x Trinary, 1x Nova, 1x Aerospace Fighter Trinary
7th Talon Cluster – 4x Trinaries, including 1 elemental star, 1 Omni fighter star
8th Talon Cluster – Command Star, 3x Trinaries, including 2x Aerospace Fighter Stars, 1x Elemental Star
4th Falcon – Command Star, 3x Trinary, 1x Star Mech, 3x Star Elemental, 1x Trinary aerospace (attached)
Victor’s Task Force
10th Lyran Guards - ‘Mech 1x Reinf. Regiment (132), Armor 5xRegiments (540), Infantry 6xRegiments (5,964), Aerospace 2xWing (40)
1st Somerset Strikers – ‘Mech 1xLance (4)
9th FedCom RCT – ‘Mech 1xRegiment (120), Armor 3xRegiments (324), Infantry 5xRegiments (4,970), Aerospace 2xWing (40)
Kell Hounds – ‘Mech 2xRegiments (240)
3rd Lyran Guards – ‘Mech 1xRegiment (120), Armor 3xRegiments (324), Infantry 5xRegiments (4,970), Aerospace 2xWing (40)
6th Lyran Guards – ‘Mech 1xRegiment (120), Armor 3xRegiments (324), Infantry 6xRegiments (5,964), Aerospace 2xWing (40)
15th Lyran Guards - Mech 1xRegiment (120), Armor 3xRegiments (324), Infantry 5xRegiments (4,970), Aerospace 2xWing (40)
3rd Davion Guards - Mech 1xRegiment (120), Armor 3xRegiments (324), Infantry 5xRegiments (4,970), Aerospace 2xWing (40)
1st Federated Suns Armored Cavalry – ‘Mech 1x Reinf. Regiment (132), Armor – 2x Battalions (216), Aerospace – 1x Wing (20)
Newly Minted Big Wing Aerospace Forces:-
1st FedCom Furies - Aerospace Regiment (60), 1xSquadron of attack Dropships (6)
3rd FedCom Furies – Aerospace Regiment (60), 1xSquadron of attack Dropships (6)
F-C Naval
FCW Victory - Mjolnir Class Battlecruiser – 36 Fighters
FCW Repulse - Tharkad Class Battlecruiser – 36 Fighters
FCW Illustrious - New Syrtis Carrier – 120 Fighters (Nt. Contains the 1st and 3rd FedCom Furies)
FCW Warspite - Feng Huang Class Cruiser – 26 Fighters
FCW Achilles ¬- Feng Huang Class Cruiser – 26 Fighters
FCW Daphne - Mako Class Corvette
FCW Nymphe - Mako Class Corvette
FCW Medusa - Mako Class Corvette
The scale of this battle should be epic ….
Mid to late October 3050 – Second Battle of Camelot Command
Clans will find their scanners (Naval assets and aerospace fighters) range severely reduced whilst in the Nebula – However the IS navy, whilst using Camelot’s unique scanners are free to operate with the assistance of CIC Camelot (this also includes their aerospace and drones)
Note: F-C aerospace assets are 504 fighters.
Mass Naval Battle - Hammer and anvil tactics – getting the clans into range, by using the IS Navy as your Hammer, of Camelot command then obliterating them against the anvil of Camelot.
However during the battle the clans will send out their Drop-ship assets using many different trajectories – many will get through and there will be many battles inside Camelot within the loading docks, repair dry-slips and warehouses adjacent.
I would also like a unit to slip through requiring the ready reaction force to scramble in a mad dash to protect Camelot’s CIC – the 10th Lyran Guards.
In the end However, the Flacons will be forced to withdraw – for the second time the Falcons have now lost a battle against the F-C (also Delta Galaxy has been destroyed)– and for the time being Honor demands that Camelot resides with the F-C.
Late October / November - ilKhan Leo Showers is killed at Radstadt – the year of preparation begins …….
What these Battles demonstrates ….
IS Warships for the Second time (First should be the DC warships Vs Jaguar Warships post Turtle Bay) as well as the introduction of big wing aerospace fighters assigned to New Syrtis Carriers.
By the end of the year of peace the IS will have fleets comparable to the Clans ….. thus many may need to call on their reserve units back in the Clan Home worlds …..
Thoughts …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/23/20 12:44 AM)
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ghostrider
02/23/20 12:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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If this is set in the time line of the CC being destroyed in either the 4th war or 3039, the Capellan warships, as in canon, would not exist. It may be needed to redesign and rename those ships.
Or go the easier route and just have FC ships being built in the old CC.
Are you going to change where the Falcons have taken, or have the FC retake some of the worlds to keep a supply line open to the station?
Honestly, with warships in the hands of the IS, it is likely that more then a few battles that were fought, didn't turn out the way that canon has them. I know this is a little off the subject, but it does have a major impact on how this could come about. Diverting resources to deal with this, would definitely change the outcome of more then a few battles.
Would the FC take the sensor tech from Camelot and put in remote sensors out even further from the station to extend the range of the sensor grid? I would also think that having a control dropship or even a fighter with a dual cockpit set up be designed so they can have the drone just sitting in space, and be controlled from this ship. This would be further out then normally allow, like the Teleoperated missiles. A dropship might be better, but that might be detected easier.
One more aspect that needs to be covered. A single year would not really be enough to send warships on near the TC/MoC/OA border to the clan border. A command circuit will NOT help a warship move any faster. So all ships being there sounds like it would be implausible.
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Requiem
02/23/20 04:28 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
If this is set in the time line of the CC being destroyed in either the 4th war or 3039, the Capellan warships, as in canon, would not exist.
Disagree, Providing the former CC people with a symbol of their new prosperity / pride under their new rulers they designed and built a warships. The enemy of yesteryear had now become allies – the modernization of their economy in an effort to join the F-C – have all come together where they take pride in their new culture (hence the name) as they have arisen from the ashes like the phoenix ….I see no reason to change the design just because is was used within the Canon Story.
Should I change every weapon system just because it is set in my Alt Universe?
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Are you going to change where the Falcons have taken, or have the FC retake some of the worlds to keep a supply line open to the station?
From the year of preparation onwards the Clans will begin to experience difficulties militarily …
• The supply lines are just way too long and when they are beginning to be cut this will affect their front line forces in the form of consumables / spares / replacement personnel.
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with warships in the hands of the IS, it is likely that more than a few battles that were fought, didn't turn out the way that canon has them.
This is the point of the Alt – a complete revamp of the entire story to something with a great deal more in it than that of the Canon that will provide the gamer with many new situations to explore and have fun – also being a little more believable makes the alt history setting a more desirable attribute.
Canon – Front Lines and objective raids only
My Alt – Front Lines; Objective raids; Fighting in the Fenrir Forces (Deep Periphery and Hunting for lost RWR facilities); Fighting with the Partisans as commando unit or partisan force; Joining the Former Falcon PGC in a fight to free their people from Tyranny; Joining a deep strike unit within the interior of the Clans Invasion Corridor; Joining a group within the former TH – hunting for SL artifacts / libraries for psy-ops to convince them as to how far they have strayed from the original values of the SL; and now fighting at Camelot, now your home base, or being sent out from Camelot; More Naval Battles with Big Wing support – even undergoing anti Clan Training with Wolf’s Dragoons as your OpFor Unit before being sent to the front lines.
Plus the vast array of forces now engaged against the Clans – F-C (and the former CC), DC, FRR, FWL, Comstar, Wolf’s Dragoons – as from the year of preparedness have once more formed the SL and the SLDF – and can now wear the Cameron Star on their Vehicles as such when they have formerly joined the new SLDF – with the re-formation of the SL earlier more house units can be involved …. And as time goes on how many Periphery states may join the new SL (once they recognize its benefits for their states) and the SLDF in fighting the Clans?
The vast array of settings / units that are now available for a gamer and the settings to explore is way more than that of the Canon!
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Would the FC take the sensor tech from Camelot and put in remote sensors out even further from the station to extend the range of the sensor grid?
Yes, as they increase the number of their new drones they will also increase the size of their sensor net’s range ….
And yes, Drop-ships will be converted into AWACS mobile long range surveillance and control centre for space defense (Big wing fighter groups.(Avenger Class) – yes they can be detected easier and yet they control a big wing so if attacked they can more than hold their own / retreat in good order – or call for reinforcements and attack.
Plus there needs to be a new mine laying Class – for the first time the Clans sensors are inhibited to an extent that mines could pose a threat to their warships.
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So all ships being there sounds like it would be implausible.
Not really, ever since Turtle Bay all IS Houses have been pushing for their warships to be finished and to be sent to the front lines – they have all been on their way shortly after Turtle Bay (First Wave) - Victory was first. The fleet was formed above Arc Royal and was sent from there to the Dark Nebula ….
The IS warship program has been working since 3040 – and how many construction sites does the F-C / DC have now ? four / five? And how many ships per year can they make – larger ships one per year, smaller ships two to three per year at the start …. And as time goes on how many new construction sites are being built so as to increase the number of ships built per year? So in 5-7 years time (3056-8) could they be doubling the IS output per year?
Plus we get rid of the nuclear genie within the game that has horrified so many of us – as this is the only way to bring a little stability to the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/23/20 07:41 PM
66.74.60.165
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WOB supposedly helped the CC with their warships, is why I figured they would not exist at this point. At this point, WOB would have just taken over control of Terra.
Even though production rate of the ships is crucial, the actually moving any on the far border to the fighting was the issue.
With a few of the ships in 2750, a few were suggested that 18 months was considered normal. So if you stick with that, 7 per berth would be about max. Prototypes being even longer with research and testing times added in, making it longer.
One thing that might slow it down is making the factories that produce warships parts, like the engines and thrusters, as well as naval weapons.
If you bring the sensor baffling materials in, or use stealth armor, the detection of the drone CIC's would be much more difficult.
One more question. Does the clans start bringing in more warships as well as fighters to counter the IS having warships and the larger fighter units?
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Requiem
02/23/20 10:27 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
WOB supposedly helped the CC with their warships, is why I figured they would not exist at this point. At this point, WOB would have just taken over control of Terra.
Now that the FedCom has assimilated the CC into their realm it is their duty, via NAIS, to provide assistance in building Warships?
The shipyards above Capella and on Capella are rebuilt – becoming Cassiopeia Shipyards – an on the planet below NAIS Capella is built as a division-of NAIS New Avalon (In addition to many other NAIS division universities throughout the Former Federated Suns in order to promote higher education.)
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Even though production rate of the ships is crucial, the actually moving any on the far border to the fighting was the issue.
Turtle Bay – Early May 3050
IS house Lords Notification as to Turtle Bay – Mid May 3050 – Request sent to all Shipyards as to Warship status and possibility of slipping their moorings – shake-down cruse is now cancelled – all available ships are to move at best speed to Arc Royal – From there their individual combat assignments will be provided.
Early to Mid September (4 months) – Victory diverted to route to Dark Nebula - First Battle of Camelot Command; and
Mid to Late October (5 months) – remainder of fleet arrives in time for – Second Battle of Camelot Command.
Problem?
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Construction time - 18 months
Question how many ship-yards were there in the old SL when it came time to replace a whole class of vessel – especially when that Class of Vessel is in the hundreds of ships? How many are still out there – within the old TH - just partially damaged ready to be rebuilt?
In my opinion the 18 moths should be considered the maximum time it took to build the largest Battleship in its time – thus smaller ships have a shorter construction time. Though I would like to say after 300 years there should be improvements in construction time – even if they are recovering from a time of lost technology.
Plus how many Shipyards does the FedCom have in this case?
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One thing that might slow it down is making the factories that produce warships parts, like the engines and thrusters, as well as naval weapons.
By 3050 all plants throughout the IS will be operating at peak performance – in my alt the reliance upon ComStar for engines etc will no longer exist – each House will have the ability to manufacture everything that is required to build a warship.
(Canon’s idea regarding obtaining ComStar’s assistance when building a warship never sat well with me – as did they need ComStar’s assistance when building a Jump-Ship?)
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If you bring the sensor baffling materials in, or use stealth armor, the detection of the drone CIC's would be much more difficult.
Agree, however ….. Second / Third generation tech for something this size – say 3055 to 3065 to work out all the kinks (to the Achileus Suit Level)?
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Does the clans start bringing in more warships as well as fighters to counter the IS having warships and the larger fighter units?
PGCs were allowed into the game with the proviso they were not allowed to be used to attack – they were not allowed to advance the Invasion Corridor as those forces assigned via the bidding process could be used.
So does this mean if you bring in additional warships they to be the equivalent of PGCs ?
For isn’t this is the only reason that they will be allowed into the IS? But isn’t this stretching the idea of “garrison force” a bit far? …. Or are they Provisional “Logistics” Corp – where PGC assist with garrisoning a worlds by doing all the jobs no one else would do – PLC assist with Logistics, the security of their Merchant Navy and as such not being part of the Invasion force are also now allowed within the IS.
Stretching the rules?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/24/20 01:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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For canon, I don't think there is more then maybe a dozen active ship yards in the FC. That does NOT say how many births/bays each has operational. So fixing/reactivating/building more, would be needed in order to have and maintain a large fleet. For some, I don't think they could grow much more, as population and other resources would come into play. Habitats would have to be made as well as more space refineries.
For the dry docks, it should take at least 5 years, maybe more. Size and difficulty in maneuvering the pieces into place, and without robotic help, welding is that much more difficult. But this is more of a side note.
It would also be likely to have to build the engines/thrusters of the larger ships in space. Not sure how Terra would send out the stuff for the largest of ships, as they would be even larger then a Behemoth dropship. At least if you follow the drawings of them. Even shipping them in pieces would not be much more likely.
The 18 months was for the larger ships, so it would or should be faster with the smaller ones.
The thing with relying on Comstar for warship engines was to keep the numbers down as well as keep the FC from just spamming them to the point that even Comstar would have to worry.
Jump ships, even the monolith, did not use engines and thrusters the size that some of the smaller warships do, much less the larger ones. It would not remain in Comstar's hands only for long, but the initial few years maybe decade would be about right logically. Re learning or maybe just building facilities that could make them, to build them would be necessary. Remember. Jump ships barely moved outside of jumps. Warships were meant to keep up with dropships and even fighters to maneuver.
Though the compact core still bothers me some. Why wouldn't the jumpship producers not use them in jumpships to make them smaller, or carry more? Bs logic with the rules..
The idea of more warships not being garrison, but needed to assault the IS, as they would be losing warships during battles. The idea that if you can't reach a landing spot, you can't assault the forces on the ground without orbital bombardments. This is one case where you HAVE to have air superiority. Warships are not something you can shoot down with ground forces.
Though the need for more warships might just provide the civil war aspect a little sooner. The home clans would NOT just let the IS ones just opt to bring in more. That was not part of the batchall. So there would be another aspect that could be exploited.
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Requiem
02/24/20 04:51 PM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
I don't think they could grow much more, as population and other resources would come into play. Habitats would have to be made as well as more space refineries. For the dry docks, it should take at least 5 years, maybe more.
Without a reasonable IS Navy by 3051 the argument of nuclear weapons must be considered once more during the Clan Invasion as a means of destroying the Clan Warships. With that in mind the IS has more than enough time to establish a warship fleet by 3051 …..
Helm Memory Core was found by the Grey Death Legion in April 3028.
NAIS received a copy and began decryption prior to the end of the 4th Succession War.
My Alt
Some-time between then and 3040 it was decrypted – information was transferred via all Relevant Government Departments to their Relevant Corporations (in conjunction with spending Programs).
For all Jumpship Manufacturing / Repair facilities – information provided in addition with a sizeable Government Grant / raise money on the stock exchange / loans to begin an increase to their infrastructure necessary to begin warship production – in space and also on land.
Together with Government Oversight -In all reality this could have begun in early / mid 3030’s and taken to mid 3040’s to complete. More than enough time to ensure the infrastructure / workforce is ready to begin these projects – even if it is only one ship type per ship-yard within the FedCom.
Nt – This time can also be enough to start building warship engines – 10 to 15 years.
At the same time they can use their old SL plans or design new warship plans.
Construction begins mid 3040’s with new ships starting to be produced late 3040’s to early 3050’s – even if each site has made two ships this is 8 to 12 ships by early 3050’s – however after the first is built wouldn’t each site begin Henry Ford’s mass production infrastructure programs to ensure economies of scale?
Thus with Larger ships there is a smaller number produced per year and for the larger ships more are produced per year –
Lyran Space
Alarion - Port Sydney Naval Shipyard – Mjolnir Class – 1,250,000 tons
- Expansion of Port Sydney for a Second / Third Massive shipyard - (To be rebuilt by mid / late 3050’s)
New Kyoto - Bolson-Tamar Shipyards (To be rebuilt by mid / late 3050’s)
Skye – Skye Shipyard (To be rebuilt by mid / late 3050’s)
Hesperus II – Hesperus II Shipyard (To be rebuilt by mid / late 3050’s)
Gibbs – Lockheed Shipyards – Tharkad Class – 900,000 tons
Suns Space
Galax – Port Simon Shipyards - Tharkad Class – 900,000 tons
Kathil – McKenna Shipyards – Mako Class – 200,000 tons
- Expansion of McKenna for a second / Third Massive shipyard - (To be rebuilt by mid / late 3050’s)
New Syrtis – New Syrtis Shipyards - New Syrtis Class – 920,000 tons
Firgrove – Clyde Shipyards – Tharkad Class – 900,000 tons
Former Capellan Space
Necromo – Aris Memorial Yard – Feng Huang Class – 970,000 tons
Keid – Keid Omicron Shipyard (To be rebuilt by mid / late 3050’s)
Capella – Delhi Shipyards / Renamed Cassiopeia (To be rebuilt by mid / late 3050’s)
If we say 18 months for a Mjolnir then for the same time - 3x Tharkad; 5x Mako; 1x New Syrtis; 1 x Feng Huang
And by mid / late 3050’s up to 10 more shipyards can be considered so that they can match the number of Clan fleet has?
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It would also be likely to have to build the engines/thrusters of the larger ships in space. Not sure how Terra would send out the stuff for the largest of ships, ….
Yes I agree the engines will be needed to be built in space in massive manufacturing facilities / within small moons?
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The thing with relying on Comstar for warship engines was to keep the numbers down as well as keep the FC from just spamming them to the point that even Comstar would have to worry.
As for ComStar assisting each Houses Warship program – No, this is completely unbelievable there is no way an IS Great House would be reliant upon another state for the production of their warships. Allowing this – ComStar now has too much influence over each house politically, and this cannot be allowed.
To allow this within the game we are back to the Huntress Military Technology Scandal – if ComStar is so worried why don’t they expand their own shipyards – and what about all the former TH shipyards? After the fall of the original SL / 1st SW why haven’t they salvaged some of these – and then built ships in secret?
Also during this period all the IS states should be increasing the number of shipyards they have in an attempt to keep pace with FedCom – and then later to build up warships to fight the Invading Clans.
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The idea that if you can't reach a landing spot, you can't assault the forces on the ground without orbital bombardments. This is one case where you HAVE to have air superiority. Warships are not something you can shoot down with ground forces.
Yes I agree warships should be used to harass / protect a Drop-ship fleet attempting to invade a planet.
However, attempting a low orbit to conduct an orbital bombardment should be considered a risk for a warship as ….
• Ground garrison forces could have scattered over the planet ICBM Capital missiles within silos / on vehicles;
• They could also have the WoB Naval Lasers on tracked vehicles or within fortresses;
• Pocket Warships (Drop-ship with smaller sub Naval laser) – like the fortress drop-ship with artillery – why can’t a grounded Pocket Warship take a shot at a Warship in low orbit?
• Then there is the question of how many aerospace fighters are on the planet with some kind of HE ship killer missiles (similar to Arrow IV?).
Thus warships can be shot down with ground forces …. It will just take time for the IS to build these …. And as for the Clans, will they adapt to the changing face of war?
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Though the need for more warships might just provide the civil war aspect a little sooner.
No, if Katherine wanted to take the FedCom throne all she needs to do is kill Victor (dead or politically)!
If he does survive will he attempt to retake the throne via a civil war when it is only him she is trying to kill?
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The home clans would NOT just let the IS ones just opt to bring in more. That was not part of the batchall. So there would be another aspect that could be exploited.
If this is accurate then why allow PGCs into the IS – they were not part of batchall?
The ruling must be the same if PGCs are allowed for “garrison duty only” then warships can be allowed in for “logistics security only”.
I cannot see how one can be allowed and the other cannot.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/24/20 06:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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Wasn't talking about orbital bombardments with how valuable warships could be. Just denying the enemy of ANY space born assets would result in much easier victories. Done right, there could be no outside reinforcements to defenders on the world.
The need for more warships was not about the FC civil war, but starting one in the clans. They would have to break the bid in order to move more into the IS to counter the newly built ones. As the rest of that paragraph states, The home clans would NOT just let the IS ones just opt to bring in more. That was not part of the batchall.
Not trying to get into the argument again, but with canon, PGCs were NOT part of a batchall, but used to garrison things that were taken. So they are not part of the bid, but essential to holding things, and forming a basis of defenders on the next challenge.
The thing with warships is they are NOT normal garrison forces. They were meant for attacks on other warships and such. Much like the Omni pilots. They can be part of a defending force, but are reserved for attacks. Classification might be considered here, as the clans would boast about their attacking forces, so having them on guard duty would be embarrassing. Also, the focus of the clans in one on one ground combat for the most part. Their fighter pilots are not seen with such esteem.
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Requiem
02/24/20 10:34 PM
1.158.235.15
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Done right, there could be no outside reinforcements to defenders on the world.
Military Intelligence …. done right this is where you exploit the gaps in their defense perimeter …. or, you assign an overwhelming force to punch your way through.
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The need for more warships was not about the FC civil war, but starting one in the clans.
Yes, I have considered how to start a civil war within the Clans – their Warden Vs Crusader philosophy is all I need to get my Psy-Ops team working on it.
So as for my Civil War – Ghost Bears, Nova Cats and half of the wolves will defect to the new SL and the SLDF – the remaining IS clans will ‘implode’ before retreating, and yet not before they strike back at their “deserters”. In addition all of the non-warrior caste members within their Leviathans will be hunted down (just like the Wolverines) – thus these Clans will need to send a fleet to protect them – there will also be a small contingent of IS SLDF ships going with them to a pre-arranged rendezvous point and escort them from there.
This could then lead to a war within the Kerensky Cluster – Wardens Vs Crusaders – and after a long period of time (15-20 years) there will come a new batchall … a new Clan Invasion – and with it a new invasion force, and a new way to fight etc ….
However the clans need a complete paradigm shift, a complete rethink on how to conduct war – the IS plan is simple to kill enough clan warriors so they cannot continue with the war, and given the predominance of their reinforcements as to the clans, from a sibko, this is highly achievable.
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The thing with warships is they are NOT normal garrison forces.
Semantics
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Their fighter pilots are not seen with such esteem.
And how many khans were aerospace pilots?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/24/20 11:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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Without outside resources, overwhelming forces from planetside would be dropships and fighters. Something most worlds don't have a large quantity of in canon. Naval ground batteries not really being allowed in canon, though really doesn't make sense, it would fall on outside forces to deal with the blockade.
Also, I just realized there might be something missing in this as well. The warships dropship compliment would be needed into the figures. They may include fighter carriers and such.
And for outside sources, that wouldn't help right now, as the enemy is pounding your ground forces with some of their own.
Semantics? That a warship is not considered a garrison force like PGCs are? How is that? ALL clans have agreed to PGCs being use, but none seem to think warships are a garrison force. So selling that idea to them wouldn't happen. If the IS clans tried, it would start a whole new round of challenges, including the removal or adding to the invasion forces. This is one point that the home clans would not just sit by and let happen.
There have been a couple of Khans outside the Snow Ravens, but not many. Most are mech warriors with elementals being the next step. But then the bias the developers have, mechs are the only real thing that makes the game.
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Requiem
02/25/20 05:34 AM
1.158.235.15
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Without outside resources, overwhelming forces from planetside would be dropships and fighters.
True, however I would also like to add the cunning of the people on the planet …. And the HPG (Black Box) Transmitter to keep in touch.
There is one other possibility …. What is the mannerisms of the Warship Captain? – if this person has some negative attributes that can be uses against himself and his crew, all the better.
For example egotistical and overconfident can become a detriment …..
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Semantics?
Semantics, yes I do believe this is correct.
Just saying the clans “agreed” to these units being used is using semantics.
That said, why not use the same logic to bring in Warships?
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Khans
I agree, the developers need to be more creative when it comes to Khans.
That said …. Warship Captains should have been considered … having a bird’s eye view of the battlefield should give them a unique understanding of the overall battlefield required to win.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/25/20 01:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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There are some issues with sending for help.
The first being no help will be sent. Other more important areas, or even people like dukes and such on tour near by might 'prevent' it.
Second is just how much force do you need? The IS has been limited in resources (canon) and sending help might be in small packages. These probably won't do more then just distract warship(s). Even with saying there are x amount and types of warships, there may yet be some you do not see.
Third is if you are the main part of an invasion and there are plenty of raids and diversions going on.
Fourth is a big one. How much time to you have? It may well be, by the time they arrive, you are already dead.
As for captains quirks. First off knowing any. They may not be the ranking officer on the ship(s).
The issue with captains being ignored for khans comes down to the actual fight for leadership. Most ship captains can not defeat an elemental in unaugmented combat. Usually only another elemental can. But it isn't as likely, but a ship captain will probably not be able to defeat a MechWarrior either.
But I do agree that some captains are worth their weight, as they do know airborne combat. Weither or not that is a big thing in the trials, I really don't know.
Warships are part of the invasion bid. That means they are NOT garrison units. Front line mechs are in the bid. Might be why they don't use them as garrison units. Before Ulric bid away his warships, they were traditionally part of invasion bids. So with that, their traditions would be that warships are not garrison troops. If you want to change that for the alt, that is your choice. In canon, they would not be snuck in as garrison units.
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Requiem
02/25/20 04:00 PM
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There are some issues with sending for help. The first being no help will be sent…..Second is just how much force do you need?........ Third is if you are the main part of an invasion and there are plenty of raids and diversions going on……..How much time to you have? ……..
Embargoing a world does have a problem.
Is the world completely self sufficient?
How long can they live given their available resources?
How long can this vessel remain above this world? As they are not self sufficient ….
Question – if they are tied to a wider army ….can an attack on another local world force them to shift?
If the local duke is preventing a relief force …. Does your realm have a strong media like the Lyran CMM?
Did your world also send a person appeal to your House Lord and CC in a copy to CMM?
They may have warships you don’t see, but you may have warships they don’t see ….
All anyone can do is ask of their GM …. or look at a map and make a case for local available forces etc ……
And remember …. None of those negative waves ……..
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The issue with captains being ignored for khans comes down to the actual fight for leadership. Most ship captains can-not defeat an elemental in un-augmented combat.
…. then how can aerospace pilots become Khan? …… also, isn’t this system discriminating against certain military warrior segments to the point they would become very ticked off over time due to the inherent unfairness of the internal political system within the Clans?
Ship captains should know the combat of all the other elements – as they must understand where they need to go to get their invasion fleet on target as well as how to protect their fleet with their available aerospace forces …..etc.
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Warships are part of the invasion bid. That means they are NOT garrison units.
The Clans see themselves the inheritors of the Star League? …. Correct?
What happens when, during the next Grand Council Meeting a resolution is put forward with regards to Warships and it contains the following information from the past …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Garrison_Fleet_(SLDF)
“Star League facilities often required naval protection, this generally took the form of flotillas of destroyers, sometimes supported by cruisers. These vessels were outside of the regular fleet structure, but were instead considered part of the Garrison Fleet for administration purposes. Sometimes vessels from garrison postings would be seconded temporarily to SLDF Fleets, but it was not unheard of for garrison ships to form ad-hoc fleets for singular actions.”
They then requested a vote to allow the Clans, the inheritors and protectors of the Star League, the same ability to form Garrison Fleets within the Invasion Corridor as they do with PGCs ……. Semantics yet again?
How will the vote go?, as this decision could allow for many unforeseen consequences in the future.
Even in the Canon history this should be considered as isn’t it something a political person would consider? For example the Diamond Sharks …. With regards to their merchants they can now send warships to “garrison” them?
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Ulric bid away his warships, they were traditionally part of invasion bids.
Yes he did ….. in an age when the IS didn’t have warships.
And yet what would he do in an age when the IS did have warships? and they were actively using them against the Clan Fleets …. What next?
As if you are putting the question before the Grand Council how can this be considered sneaking in warships as garrison units?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/25/20 09:26 PM
66.74.60.165
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The embargo is not to starve out the world, but to weaken the military. Quick strikes and retreats being the most likely combat. It is not guaranteed to do anything but cause a large fuel bill and wasting time.
You do know the difference between someone commanding a force in a large ship, and someone that can fight ground targets without bombardments? This is personal glory fighting, not using large amounts of people to do it for you.
I would also think that warships are one of a few things that aren't used in trials of position. Even with the clans the waste would be too much.
There is a large difference between the clans and the SLDF. The clans promote personal prowess over all else. The fact they do not use SLDF unit designations and even designs should show this.
Now the question is, WHO would even try to introduce that to the grand council? The Falcons? Not really. They might try to increase the amount of warships to counter the IS, but never for garrison duty. They would more likely race towards none SL ship yards and obliterate them. The SL shipyards would be targets for capture. Which could be used against them.
As for the other clans, they would probably not allow for breaking traditions to allow more then the last bid before the winning one. To ask for this, would be laughed at and cause multiple trails of refusal or others, against the asking clan. If you can't do the job with what you bid, get out of the way so someone else can. One upmanship comes to mind.
Depending on how early the IS warships came in the idea of the Jaguars asking for them comes to mind. But even with that, I don't think they would. The whole death before dishonor thing the clans love so much.
I doubt he would have done so if the IS had warships, but it was a ploy to put the Bears off balance for Rasslehague. Even if the IS had warships, the lack of any around Rasslehauge would probably go with removing the warships. But future bids would probably be based on what is there at the time. The Wolves would sorely be undergunned, as they only had 2 warships in their fleet when they invaded.
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Requiem
02/25/20 10:27 PM
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The embargo is not to starve out the world, but to weaken the military.
Consider … you cannot do one without inflicting the hardship on the other.
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WHO would even try to introduce that to the grand council?
How about …. Ulric? Plus wouldn’t the Jaguars support him – especially if he uses their martial vanity against them? They could even consider this as0 Ulric showing his warrior nature for such a request …. And unbeknown to them he is just using them as his cat’s paw ….
Plus, such a proposition would throw the entire Grand Council into Chaos, something I believe he would enjoy greatly ….
<Nt. What I am doing here is setting up the Crusader Clans for Ulric’s next move – The Homecoming Exodus – in my alt history with the re-establishment of the Star League the amount of Clans that defect back to the Star League will not just be the Bears, the Cats and the half the Wolves – it will be ALL the wardens who will defect and as such he will place these fleets as a screening force to protect the great many Leviathan Carriers transporting all they can back into the Inner Sphere – and with this the start of their Civil War>
<Question: How so many Leviathans? Answer: Not all were as blind to Nicholas’ treachery regarding the Wolverines – just in case the decision was made by a few of the Khans at that time to establish a way back if the time ever came – throughout the ages only a few have been allowed to know of their existence – Hidden outside the Kerensky Cluster known to but a few is the true Dark Caste – and their role to save as many as they can>
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The SL shipyards would be targets for capture.
Yes, I agree … But if we have learnt anything from the First Succession War it is to hide our Shipyards lest they be attacked in the future …. So good luck hunting them down.
<Why? Why would you establish your warship shipyards out in the open like they were pre 1st Succession War – if you do then you just invite the same type of attack that destroyed them in the first place – a point only the king of all fools would repeat – No, in the future they will be hidden and they will be protected against most threats.>
In addition consider how such a move would affect their frontline – logistics is going to be reduced considerably for a considerable amount of time – so your front lines will have problems with replacement personnel, space parts, consumables, medical etc ……
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As for the other clans, they would probably not allow for breaking traditions to allow more then the last bid before the winning one.
Question – How far has the rot of politics spread within the Clans?
As for the trials of refusal – Ulric would be glad to accept all incomers to such a trial …. He may even get the Jaguars to be on his side in such a venture …. Oh what irony this will be in the future!
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But future bids would probably be based on what is there at the time.
The Clans would have to adapt – IS Naval forces could pop in at any time and from many a pirate point – their bids had best be quick or they will soon find themselves in a world of hurt.
Especially when you consider that the FedCom Alone can create a new fleet of 11 warships every 18 months – and this will just increase as the new warship shipyards come on line.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/26/20 12:41 AM
66.74.60.165
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Would you explain how you can hide SL shipyards? The clans would know were they were all built, with a few exceptions of those that were not common knowledge when the SLDF made the exodus. Part of the Dragoons mission was checking out League caches, which would be less well known then ship yards.
Given Ulric's disdain for the invasion, he might well resist more warships being sent to the IS. I would think he would be more then happy to have his clan return home, instead of being in the IS. It would embarrass the crusaders beyond measure, and possibly change a few of the moderate crusader clans into taking down the hard core ones. Maybe even having more crusader clans fight to become part of the invasion, weakening the hold they have over the home worlds.
In one fell swoop, the Wardens could very well take the facilities needed by the IS clans and prevent ANY sort of reinforcements or supply parts from being sent out.
If the crusaders stay, they will have far more damage then in Canon, and that would show they were 'lucky' in their winning the invasion bids. It would also make them that much weaker trying to return home to take back they place. It may well cripple them, as they are expecting something to come in to repair their units. They would have to decide weither to use IS resources for ammo resupplies. Oh how they were burn in shame and rage for that one.
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Requiem
02/26/20 01:53 AM
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Would you explain how you can hide SL shipyards?
Question: How vast is space? And how many systems are there even just one jump away? In all probability they are in thousands’ of systems, so how many places can I hide a shipyard in just one jump or less – and then within system could there be areas where you can hide them even further?
Then it is just a question of converting the local pirate Jump point to a dedicated jump point to service your new hidden shipyard. Just remember to include security protocols as to its location / access to this information upon each Jumpship’s Navi Comp etc.
And over time you establish new manufacturing facilities – ore processing facilities etc so that the entire shipyard becomes self sufficient (over the next 10-20 years since its inception).
So no, no they do not know where they are being built exactly.
There will remain a dependence period from their former location for a period of time should the Clan forces attack – but to do so they will have to divert considerable resources from the front line to attack – and how well guarded are these facilities?
So yes they can attack – there could be some damage – but who knows for how long they might be off line for if they can use another shipyard and just transfer over the parts needed?
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Given Ulric's disdain for the invasion, he might well resist more warships being sent to the IS.
…. And if it is part of his trap to save the Warden Clans from the machinations of the Crusader Clans?
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I would think he would be more then happy to have his clan return home, instead of being in the IS.
Expect a Trial of absorption or annihilation by one of the major Crusader Clans! He and his Clan would be seen as weak for deserting the field of battle.
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Maybe even having more crusader clans fight to become part of the invasion
If you pull all of the Wardens over to the IS’s SL then the next invasion (after ? years of preparing / bickering over whose fault it is / and who allowed them to get away etc.) so all the remaining Crusader Clans will be part of the Second Invasion!
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In one fell swoop, the Wardens could very well take the facilities needed by the IS clans and prevent ANY sort of reinforcements or supply parts from being sent out.
Doubtful – many battles required …… uncertain outcome!
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if the crusaders stay, they will have far more damage than in Canon
Once all the wardens go rogue – the IS Crusader Clans will all find themselves in the same boat as that of the Canon setting during operation Bulldog. Ejected from the IS - however it will be a couple of months before they arrive at a working HPG ship along the exodus route to find out about what is occurring on the clan home worlds.
<as the IS Warden Clans will cut the lines prior to their defection>
As to what happens to them when they return home – I haven’t go that far yet along this new history.
As for the Jade Falcons and the Crusader Wolfs – I am considering re-establishing the Jade Wolfs – prior to their ejection they blame the wolves and get their revenge in absorbing what remains within their Invasion Corridor.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/26/20 01:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still didn't answer, how do you hide SL ship yards from the ex-SLDF? Not house ship yards, but the ones used to build the ships the SLDF used in the exodus?
I doubt the other clans would put forth those trials. The Wolves nearly won the trial of refusal just before the start of the invasion. I forget the actually numbers of the fight, but they showed just how skillful they were in that. They nearly destroyed the Falcons in a fight they were required to use lesser forces with. That may not happen in the future with the alt, but without nerfing them, I don't see many wanting to even challenge them. And for annihilation all the other clans would have to vote for it. Not gonna happen with the warden clans. Only one has to vote against it. Absorbtion is possible, but the first few that try would be hurt and disgraced for the effort. Granted attrition would be the way they would finally fall.
Actually, I was thinking the Wardens would take the home systems, not join the IS. This would force what even forces that could be pulled from the IS to head back home in order to retake anything they could. They would be extremely weakened, as they would not receive reinforcements or supplies as this attack was going on. The idea. Guarding the IS from the crusaders. This in combination of the bids to invade the IS would make it that much easier to accomplish. Not that it would be a cake walk, but just remove the front line units. Granted, the destruction of the crusaders would reduce the fights in the game, so this may well be opposite of what is wanted. Though this may also start a complete civil war within the clans. Enough to allow the IS to rebuild/build and possibly help assist in the removal of the crusaders, or at least a long term war to try.
This may well give more logical reasons for actual colonizing the way to the clans. Nothing that would explode with population, but give it more bite.
Though anything like this will basically remove the refusal war between the Wolves and Falcons. Or remove the batchall way of fighting it.
You think the original clan civil war was bad. Now they have better weapons in which to destroy their society.
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Requiem
02/26/20 04:14 PM
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…..how do you hide SL ship yards from the ex-SLDF? Not house ship yards, but the ones used to build the ships the SLDF used in the exodus?
Mobility …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Yardship
“Yardship refers to jump-capable spacecraft that incorporate docks, workshop, and shipyard facilities which allow them to repair stranded vessels (typically WarShips or JumpShips) or even serve as mobile shipyards…..uestions also remain as to the fate of those Newgrange ships that accompanied the exiled SLDF to the Pentagon Worlds.”
Star League era ….
Faslane Class – 550,000 tons
Newgrange Class – 2,300,000 tons - the pinnacle of Star League Defense Force's mobile repair and refit support vessels …. the vessel could not jump or maneuver while a ship was repaired in its dry-dock. (SLDF had over 200 of these ships – at the time of the exodus over 40 …. The WoB had 2)
Leviathan Heavy Transport – 2,400,000 tons
Clan Invasion era ….
In the future the next generation of this vessel is bigger and CAN jump with the ship it is constructing in its dry dock.
They will also have many support vessels who can attach / detach from the yardship as required, and who’s role is to provide the manufacturing / material support required whist manufacturing a new warships.
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I doubt the other clans would put forth those trials.
What is the political aim of this invasion?
….restoring the Star League on their terms.
What was going on in the past that required a Trial of Refusal?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Wolf#Delaying_the_Inevitable
“In 3048 Clan Smoke Jaguar dropped a bombshell: they had captured the ComStar exploration ship Outbound Light in orbit of their homeworld Huntress. Using information he purported to have gleaned from the captured vessel, Khan Leo Showers presented evidence that was the Federated Commonwealth was well on it's way to conquering the rest of the Inner Sphere and declaring itself the reborn Star League, and that furthermore ComStar was close to revealing the location of the Clan homeworlds and opening them up to attack from the Inner Sphere. The very thought of a reverse-invasion by the Inner Sphere was anathema to the Clans, and on 21 November the Grand Council voted almost unanimously for invasion.”
“Only Clan Wolf stood opposed to the invasion and Khan Ulric Kerensky demanded a Trial of Refusal.”
What is going on now ….
An expansion of the war as the IS have begun manufacturing Warships en mass …. Their logistics supply lines are now at risk of being cut by Fenrir forces (and their DC Counterparts) as well as their warships that are now operating within the IS, the periphery and the deep periphery. If these SL forces are able to starve their forces within their invasion corridor….then they will have lost their chief aim of restoring the Star League on their terms. Can any clansman allow there IS forces to be cut off from the Kerensky Cluster? Politically those that are in the IS Vs. the some of the Home Clans that want to see them fail? Worst case 6 IS Vs.10 Home?
This is why I believe all the Wardens would defect, what happens when their chief aim no longer exists …. The IS has restored the SL - Their new SL charter is virtually identical to that of the old charter just the removal of the First Lord’s position. As a copy of the signed document is sent to all of the Clans.
What would they do when their political reason for starting the war no longer exists? Something that was never really explored to its fullest within the canon story (glossed over).
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I was thinking the Wardens would take the home systems, not join the IS.
The damage of such a war would be incredible if they move away from the bidding process and non-restrictive war starts. Something similar to the Succession Wars?
Their entire culture is built on the premise of ensuring this never happens and to do so leaves but one option – Exodus.
The Wardens become a part of the SL and are able to guide (not enforce by might) and protect the Great Houses as they establish a new SL – one they will (they hope) last for all time.
Second, by becoming part of the new SLDF they can request to leave the Crusader Clans and the Kerensky Cluster alone – there will be no reverse invasion – a point they will make clear with their former brethren - they could even ask to keep the HPG relay along the exodus road open so that the two could keep in contact.
The Crusader Clans however will return to the Kerensky Cluster – battered, bruised and weakened from their experiences – demanding a war against the defectors. So now the Home Crusader Clans and the former IS Crusader Clans will now have a reason for an expanded second invasion war … they will however need time to rebuild their forces, and the way they fight if they hope to build a force that can take on both the IS and the former Warden Clans.
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Though anything like this will basically remove the refusal war between the Wolves and Falcons. Or remove the batchall way of fighting it.
With the defection of the Warden Clans the Falcons will need someone to blame … the remaining Crusader Wolves can thus be that vengeance in that moment …. Jade Wolves anyone?
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You think the original clan civil war was bad. Now they have better weapons in which to destroy their society.
And the SLDF (IS Warden Clans and Great Houses) can be there to stop it.
So we start a new story arc …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/26/20 05:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans will always have a reason to go to war. It isn't enough that the SL has been reborn, but it wasn't made by them. So this would be an insult to the power houses in the crusader clans.
The idea of a mobile shipyard is a little much. I can see a repair yard being able to do so, as they can latch on to specific regions as well as do some of the heavy work a ships repair crew can't.
Building one from scratch is far different.
I haven't even heard of a single one that was found in the IS.
This is another retconned idea that is over powered.
For the alt, the home clans defection is possible. I doubt they would, as they would not deal with the houses properly. Most would try and remove them as they are still barbaric entities occupying the garden worlds of the SL. And once they see what the houses did to them, would cause them to turn on them, or at least demand they fix those worlds.
And the idea that the wardens will ask to leave the crusaders alone wouldn't happen. Without wardens preventing them from another invasion, it would only be a matter of time before they did it again, and again, and again. You would have to neuter the entire warrior philosophy of the crusaders. And trying to leave an IS leader there to control them would be the ultimate insult.
The idea of leaving the crusaders to rebuild is a logic hole forming. Much like the BS of the CC rebuilding.
Also, the home crusaders would fall upon the IS clans coming home, as they failed to take the IS, and has now put them all in danger of invasion.
But this is just my opinion of things. Others will vary.
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Requiem
02/27/20 12:36 AM
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The clans will always have a reason to go to war. It isn't enough that the SL has been reborn, but it wasn't made by them. So this would be an insult to the power houses in the crusader clans.
Hubris, vanity, self-delusion, and an over abundance in the belief that might makes right …… yes these are some of the Clans values. An yes they are incredibly dogmatic in their views as to what is right and wrong and can be and can’t be a truth – that said you are correct, the Crusaders would never accept anything less than a Star League created in their image - even if undeniable proof was presented as to their folly.
However, for the Wardens there are some that are more open mined though few and far between. And even less is the number that can see the truth behind their culture and the blight that it has become.
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The idea of a mobile shipyard is a little much.
Sorry you think so, to me they pose a unique idea for the future – what I was contemplating is the idea that that two / three of these ships could even be joined together by massive docking arms in which massive ships could be manufactured – when needing to jump they have the ability to synchronize their individual bubble into one massive bubble in which to jump as a single ship.
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I haven't even heard of a single one that was found in the IS.
Read the above post – apparently ComStar had two wrecks and then the WoB had two of them ….
Other than that their plans have been lost to time …. or hidden away somewhere within the former TH.
All things considered – between 3050 and 3150 each Great House should have begun rebuilding these classes as they allow for greater repair and refit closer to the front lines to keep them in the fight longer – as well as fixing any captured enemy ships.
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For the alt, the home clans defection is possible. I doubt they would, as they would not deal with the houses properly.
If your duty is protect a piece of land far away, isn’t it better to go to that piece of land and protect it?
As for dealing with the Houses – this were you need a very good ambassador to work it all out.
Sorry to say but once the clans have been beaten in battle by the IS on multiple occasions – these barbarians have proven themselves the equal of Clan warriors – thus they must be given due respect – However for some no matter how good they are in battle they will never be able to gain respect due to where they were born and how they were born.
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And the idea that the wardens will ask to leave the crusaders alone wouldn't happen.
Agree they would threaten them.
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Without wardens preventing them from another invasion, it would only be a matter of time before they did it again, and again, and again.
It is more likely they will become Aggressors (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Aggressors) at an earlier stage and yes there will be many wars one after the next after the next.
What will happen, however, in the far future there will be a war to kill off the entire Agressor Clans Warriors once and for all as they did with the Jaguars – this time, they will have to be more thorough though.
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The idea of leaving the crusaders to rebuild is a logic hole forming.
When trying to get out of dodge as quickly as possible are you going to hang around and cause mass genocide as you leave? …. They are Wardens not mass murderers …. It is not like they will just drop some cobalt tipped nukes on every world within the Kerensky Cluster as they leave to depopulate every world – rendering them all dead worlds.
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the home crusaders would fall upon the IS clans coming home, as they failed to take the IS, and has now put them all in danger of invasion.
Depends upon how strong they are – and how ruthless they are willing to be to ensure their future – the quote “don’t tread on me” comes to mind here.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/27/20 12:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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As I said. I can see a mobile repair set up, but not a full construction yard. At least in the game. Granted, this does give rise to more warships being produced by unknown factions, means more bombardments of worlds, so technically more combat. But this is nothing more then a repeat of the WOB attacks, without the nukes (hopefully).
Well maybe not for warships, but some dropships might be buildable. If the shipyard is larger then the largest warship, which it would have to be in order to work on one, I can see it being able to house even the Behemoth. Jumpships are a bit of a stretch, as the size starts getting in the way of why having a mobile shipyard is good. The ability to move out rather quickly.
So how many survived the clans civil war? Did they have some being moved to the IS or close enough to serve as fixing warships that would get damaged in the fights? The clans didn't seem to know the IS didn't have warships but knew about a few smaller forces. Hmmm.
Actually, the clan philosophy would allow them to eliminate an entire clan, so why not a political group? At the least, a complete removal of the crusader/warden faction, though absorbing some of it would be likely. The crusaders would not be able to leave the wardens 'treachery' go unpunished, and the wardens would know they would continue. The one clan to rule them all ideology comes into effect here. Maybe after a few normal generations, that might fade being in the IS, but initially, I don't think it would.
With the idea that the clans returning home were cut off from supplies, and the home worlds they own captured, the IS ones would not be in any real shape to be strong enough to hold off multiple trials. Unless they resort to bombardments, assuming they win any space combats, I just don't see them holding off the other 14 clans. This would be before the Vipers/Cats were active invaders, so they would still be home clans.
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Requiem
02/27/20 04:05 PM
1.158.235.15
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As I said. I can see a mobile repair set up, but not a full construction yard. At least in the game
Newgrange – Production Year 2600 - After 400 years there has been no new development with regards to the yardship?
No matter how the game want’s it to be, the BattleMech cannot remain the king of the Battlefield long term, as all of the players (Houses and Clans) within the game must be a black sea faring nations – to trade – to get their military to the battlefield – to protect their realm etc.
If there is to be a large and modern merchant navy then there must also be a large and modern Naval component at the same time, so unless you want to keep technology at a low level to make nothing change there must be warships.
And given the IS / Clan (via the SLDF) history as to the survivability of fixed place shipyards within space wouldn’t everyone be looking for a permanent solution?
Thus there is only two options – hide the shipyard and provide it with a massive security (with the longest range Naval gun possible – as if they don’t have this the warship that does have the longest range gun will just stand off and blow it to pieces before any aerospace fighters can reach it) or make it mobile and provide a fleet to protect it, thus making the jump its best possible defense.
Sorry but I must agree to disagree on this point, I can understand that this technology may be stretching the rules, but I cannot see any other way.
No matter which weapon system you give the players there will always be an opportunity to miss use it within the game.
If the problem is the possibility of orbital bombardments – either make them illegal in the game or change the rules and provide every planet with a anti warship weapons system – yes small dropships may be able to dodge but a warship is easy prey.
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So how many survived the clans civil war?
Canon has Kerensky’s Exodus fleet with over 40 Yarships - after this there is no record.
However, considering the food requirements of the Exodus fleet and the size of these ships my bet is that the majority were converted into food ships – mass hydroponics bays etc – and once reaching the Kerensky Cluster they became orbiting food ships – then over time as the number of conflicts increased most were destroyed during the battles prior to Nicholas taking over.
However many may have been taken out into the void during this time – as a means of escape back to the IS – and over time this evolved into a conspiracy to escape back to the IS. (Buyer’s remorse)
So by the time of the exodus back to the IS there would be many of these ships and a massive number of Leviathan Transports – that will end up within the IS – and again hidden from the Great Houses.
As for the Naval engagements during this exodus as the Crusader Clans pursue them – how long is a piece of string? - how many battles do you want and how many get captured / destroyed?
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Did they have some being moved to the IS or close enough to serve as fixing warships that would get damaged in the fights?
You would assume each clan would have at a minimum one yard ship each so that they can effect repairs - however given the small size of the Kerensky Cluster there is not that much need for them until they begin their plans to travel to the IS and begin an invasion – this is when they will need them. As given the massive distance between the IS and Clan Space if anything goes wrong, and you don’t have a yardship, you will have to abandon the ship – wasteful.
So either there are yarships that are owned by one clan (Diamond Sharks?) and they charge for all repairs to all the Clans Naval Fleets, as and when required, or every Clan has their own – or there are massive trials of possessions going on for the small number of ships still in existence.
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The clans didn't seem to know the IS didn't have warships but knew about a few smaller forces. Hmmm.
Blame Wolf’s Dragoons.
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the clan philosophy would allow them to eliminate an entire clan, so why not a political group?
Yes a political group can be eliminated –each clan can just kill them off with impunity – as seen by the Bears / Jaguar / scientist / clan canon civil war purges etc.
This is why they must remain secret at all times.
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The crusaders would not be able to leave the wardens 'treachery' go unpunished, and the wardens would know they would continue. The one clan to rule them all ideology comes into effect here.
Yes there will be many wars in the future between these two groups – the hate will never vanish it will be passed from one generation to the next - until one side or the other is completely destroyed or subjugated by the other.
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With the idea that the clans returning home were cut off from supplies, and the home worlds they own captured, the IS ones would not be in any real shape to be strong enough to hold off multiple trials.
Warden Clan leave their holdings and travel to the IS – result massive empty holdings and cities and factories etc within the Kerensky Cluster. All are to be fought over by the remaining Crusader Clans – Trials of possession.
Those Crusader Clans who escape the IS – they will raid their logistics outposts and travel home to the Kerensky Cluster – battered and bruised and full of hate – who knows what response they will get when they arrive?
Options are either - Peaceful to rebuild all the remaining Crusader Clans so that all of them can seek revenge in the next invasion of the IS or Hostile – massive Trials of absorption / extermination – massive destruction to whatever Crusader Clans remain (an even longer time to rebuild) until they can seek their revenge.
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Unless they resort to bombardments, assuming they win any space combats, I just don't see them holding off the other 14 clans. This would be before the Vipers/Cats were active invaders, so they would still be home clans.
Speed – mass civilian transport dropships – very good coordination on the ground to get everyone to their ships and get going at a moments notice;
Surprise - ensure the Crusaders do not learn of this until it is too late; and
Hiding in the depths of space.
It is possible but there will need to be very good coordination on the ground to get it done very quickly.
Remember the bulk of the Clans Warships are held in massive shipyards (deactivated) in deep space – so it will take time to get them reactivated and set them to pursue the fleeing Wardens.
In addition they will have their own fleet of warships to protect the merchant / cruise vessels. So if any battles do erupt hopefully they can keep them at a distance.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/27/20 04:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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The developers can do what ever to keep mechs as the king of the battle field. Full destruction of warships would come about if they need to be rid of them. Another war like the 1st succession war would be something I believe would happen. But this will have to include the clan home worlds, or it become the next big invasion again.
Weither logical or even wanted is a completely different topic.
I would imagine the mobile docks were basic skeleton structures, not an enclosed thing that you could pressurize with breathable air. So unless you convert a lot of it over to hydroponic farms, a large farming area isn't likely. But that still doesn't answer where the yards went. This could be used to start a new threat. Someone finding one or more left hidden in space some where and have a ship that was left behind as it could not be fixed with the spares the SLDF brought with them on the exodus.
Would make an interesting campaign.
Talking about political groups, I was talking about the Crusader/Warden political groups. They could, or maybe should, destroy either/or, maybe both. If the Wardens went to join the IS, I could see a 'holy' war break out between them.
But it seems that we agree, there will be a war to the death between them. So the Wardens would not ask to leave the Crusaders alone, as suggested in previous responses.
It was being suggested the Wardens finally take the home worlds for their own. If you go with heading to the IS, the trials to take the Wardens stuff is all dependent on when they leave. The home Crusaders could try to stop them, or take the abandoned worlds before the IS crusaders get back. This could well lead to the civil war in the crusaders.
Would those home clans even accept the IS clans back?
The statement of orbital bombardment wasn't stopping or engaging the Wardens, but the returning IS clans trying to get back to business. Their forces would be weaker then when they left, and if the home clans just take over their stuff, the returning clans won't have the fire power to really get reestablished.
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Requiem
02/27/20 06:18 PM
1.158.235.15
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The developers can do what ever to keep mechs as the king of the battle field.
Correct, especially when it makes no sense whatsoever.
Have a look at the new canon era 3150 as to how many each Great Houses can make – the Federated Suns are down to building one warship at a time!
Another reason why I cannot comprehend the canon history …..
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I would imagine the mobile docks were basic skeleton structures, not an enclosed thing that you could pressurize with breathable air.
Consider looking at their image https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Faslane and especially the Newgrange - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Newgrange
How hard would it be to convert an unpressurized area into a pressurized area if all you have to do is just build a wall within the ship to allow a pressurized area to be established?
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But that still doesn't answer where the yards went.
Never written into the story, so completely forgotten about? …… again!
Yes you could make a very interesting story about these ships - what would happen if you pack one of these to the max with WoB Drones and went wandering through the IS …. And legal …..
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I could see a 'holy' war break out between them.
Yes I agree there will be war to death between them …. The Wardens will threaten the Crusaders, the Crusaders will ignore their threat … then they will build up their forces and attack …. The wardens will attack back and it will be on for young and old alike.
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It was being suggested the Wardens finally take the home worlds for their own.
How about 3250? After many hundreds of years of on again off again wars …..
As for what they take with them – whatever was in the ship to begin with and small items only – and then only the people and their small goods they can carry – none of the big factories will be abole to be taken as they just do not have the time to do so.
So the remaining Crusader Clans will be left with many factories and no one to actually run them.
And, yes it could lead to civil war amongst the remaining Crusaders.
As for the Crusaders returning from the IS – when they arrive home they will find all the most important buts that were left by the Wardens taken already by the Home Clans – thus if they want anything they will have to fight for it. And as such may start a war between the Home Crusaders and the IS crusaders due to an equitable division of former Warden Holdings (now abandoned).
IS Clans getting reestablished – yes this will pose a problem – could be solved either politically or militarily depending on how the story goes.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/28/20 07:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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The issue with making a warship sized ship yard pressurized isn't the waste of putting up the walls to make it, but the air that is being used, and any waste that comes from opening the yard up to receive or release a ship. Yes, some will be pulled out, but not all. And breathing the air has it's own effects. Yes. EVA suits will cause air cleaning issues as well as fuel wastes. I would figure the IS should have robots or, what do you know, DRONES that can do some or most of the work. Guided by a operator if necessary. But trying to keep clean air is going to be an issue. The drydock/building area can't be separated so loss is minimal. The smaller ships could, but even then, you are talking a pretty big hatch or door.
It can be done, but is it really worth it?
The history of the canon story has never been much for being realistic or logical. Not with the quick introduction of things, then drop them right after they get into the hands of others. The deathstar is used to frighten them, but once it is taken, the cores burn out and there is no material to fix them. Yes. I know the deathstar isn't in BattleTech, but it is just an example.
The issue with the FC and warship production is the very reason why they should have remained dead. The cat is out of the bag concept here. Now the focus will shift to Aerotech/battlespace gaming. As the conventions to limit things like orbital bombardments and nukes has been ignored some many times it isn't funny, the game will be to stop the ship from being around.
This also works when you have the warship.
This is just another link in issues that can't be solved.
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Requiem
02/28/20 11:24 PM
1.158.235.15
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ship yard pressurized
Permanent conversion - sealing off the entire area previously used for warship repair – multiple floors created + Multiple new Water Tanks + new air recycling - and where each floor is now used for Hydroponics bay / animal husbandry.
Thus for the two year Exodus Kerensky went on he had the ability to create a reasonable amount of food – also when they arrived in the Kerensky Cluster these ships could still be used to generate food for the new colonies.
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It can be done, but is it really worth it?
If Kerensky had 45 of these ships for his exodus – it comes down to mathematics as to the amount of food that can be generated per ship (number of people they can feed to the total number of people on the journey) to the amount of projected work that will be required to fix broken ships whilst upon the exodus voyage.
So your guess is as good as mine?
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The history of the canon story has never been much for being realistic or logical.
Agree!
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Now the focus will shift to Aerotech/battlespace gaming.
Agree – now that warships have been reintroduced the game will change also.
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As the conventions to limit things like orbital bombardments and nukes has been ignored some many times it isn't funny, the game will be to stop the ship from being around.
Ban all WMDs from the Game!
You will know when the idea warships have gone too far, is when many of the larger mercenary units have their own warship. or when building your new unit and you want a warship rather than a Jump-ship to transport your unit around.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/01/20 12:09 AM
66.74.60.165
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The problem with banning all WMDs from the game comes up to logic and the fact they are needed to drive the IS into yet another war.
The only way to challenge the entire IS comes to wars between the houses. And we all know where that leads. Granted with the FS losing their fleets in the one run, it may well cause the FS to become the new CC. But it is just as likely that in the future, something will happen to break up the DC, saving the FS.
Now I would have an issue with morality if the players were using them like WOB. I do admit that is a personal thing with me. I always hated when people played an evil character in D&D. The group was meant to be defenders and avengers, to the tyrants that need to be remove, in my opinion.
Now that you said permanent conversion, I can agree the mobile repair stations would make a great space station. I was thinking you wanted to continue to build warships in it.
If you don't plan on ever jumping it again, you have some materials for jumpcores for other ships.
Granted, some of them might make a great fighter production facility, or things that require zero-g.
But unless weather patterns on the worlds were that bad, it does give question on if it is worth it. I would say one conversion at least. Rare plants and trees being the main reason. Not risking their extinction because of a major storm or drought. But again, this is personal feelings.
Now here is a thought. Can you jump the facilities with dropships inside the parts?
Say using it like a jumpship. This might explain how they moved more families then just what the warships and jumpships could handle.
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ghostrider
03/01/20 12:18 AM
66.74.60.165
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I do have to ask if you read the links you posted on the mobile ship yards.
They do explain what happened to most of them, with only a few being stuck in the IS when the first war broke out. Those were targeted from the get go of the war.
This would have been a focus on the idea of using them. Not just WOB had some.
But the fact the RoTS has a few of them raises some questions. They can't look at the damn things and figure out how to make more?
I can understand that warships would not be economical to make if you couldn't fix them in the field, but this changes everything with that.
Love the fact that the game retconned just how many WOB destroyed as their own numbers didn't match and the developers know that.
But the question remains about the drives. How is it the smaller drives move the larger ships? Obviously the construction rules are screwed up, as only warships can have drives smaller then needed on jumpships, compared to the size.
Edited by ghostrider (03/01/20 12:24 AM)
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