Requiem
03/15/20 06:52 AM
101.185.93.54
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The planet was conquered by Clan Wolf ….. with the assistance of Phelan Kell
However what if the Fed-Com and DC decided to protect this Capitol world (as they would in the future with the DC Capitol)
What if prior to the Wolves arrival the Fed-Com sent in the Kell Hounds plus another elite unit and the DC sent in a couple of elite units.
And during the battle Morgan Kell became aware of Phelan’s presence on the battlefield – and within an enemy ‘Mech
What would happen then what would Morgan / Phelan do next?
Who would win the battle?
Should such a situation have been included within the Canon History?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/15/20 12:19 PM
66.74.60.165
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This would be an interesting concept for an alt.
As you asked if this should be in canon...
Canon wouldn't have happened due to a few reasons. Some would have to be explained as to why the FC/DC would send in troops to help the FRR without the FRR asking for it.
One being the fact the FC/DC were busy trying to hold off the clans in their own territories, and would need them to push the invaders back.
Along with that, they had no idea of how badly the others were being hit.
Third would be politics itself at this time. The FRR would absolutely refuse to allow either nation to send in forces it did not request, as it leads to the issue of if the other houses were going to start carving up the FRR. Payment would be demanded, and worlds would be annexed as such.
Now other things to deal with/explain. Why wasn't the Kell Hounds being deployed to counter the clans before this situation would have even unfolded? That could be asked about all the 'elite' units. Hell, a lot more units in general.
Also distance would be a problem. It isn't like Rasalhague is a single jump into the FRR.
Now the enemy mech statement is a problem. I want to say that Phelan was already using the clan upgrade of his Wolfhound at this time. So that alone would bring it's own issues. I would think some communications would happen, but the big question would be: Was Phelan a part of the Wolf clan enough to tell his father he would not return to the IS way of life?
The battle between the two of them would depend on those combatants in the area. Not sure if the Kell Hounds would just stand there while the clan forces were in the area. The clans would stop fighting for a circle of equals as long as the Hounds didn't start anything. Without a pause in the other fighting, it could go either way. More likely the Hounds would fire at Phelan, as they are used to engaging multiple targets. Any other units in the area that were IS, would probably not stop for the fight, but use it to hit the clanners from the flanks and rear if possible.
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Requiem
03/16/20 05:47 AM
101.185.93.54
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……the FRR asking for it.
Issues why they (Fed-Com and DC) would assist …..
It is clear the FRR can not stop them thus they must ask for assistance or face annihilation – politically and militarily they have no choice but to ask for help.
If the Clans punch through the FRR wouldn’t this mean they now have the ability to flank your forces and attack your forces in the rear thus trapping your forces in pockets surrounded by clan forces (Battle of the Bulge)?
Can you allow such a situation or do you create a unified / flexible defensive force that will contain the Clans?
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Along with that, they had no idea of how badly the others were being hit.
Media reports …. refugee reports … spies – Damage after action reports – even the House lords may come to the conclusion they need the assistance of the rival houses to fend off the Clans – détente may occur ….. (similar to USA and USSR – Regan era)
Sorry but I cannot see a demand for payment – it is a crisis we are all at war with the same enemy – we all hang individually or we hang together.
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Also distance would be a problem. It isn't like Rasalhague is a single jump into the FRR.
and when you compare this to Luthien? It doesn’t look that far now!
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Was Phelan a part of the Wolf clan enough to tell his father he would not return to the IS way of life?
To make the story interesting …. Yes he would say he is now part of the Clans and no longer part of the Kell Hounds.
His father’s response – sad - but accepting – also there would be no quarter given when and if they meet – his first duty is to House Steiner and the Inner Sphere.
Others within the Kell Hounds will now consider him a traitor and they will attempt to kill him on sight!
As for a circle of equals – doubt it would happen – they would talk at a distance without coming to blows.
However in the future he will be declared a traitor – send in the Marauder with dollar signs all over it!
This could have been an epic battle and a very interesting story ….. if only it was considered …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/16/20 01:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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From the sounds of it, the FRR didn't ask for help in the canon version. Even the FC/DC did not know the full extent of their own borders, which comes to needing the question: Just how effective was Comstars covering the clans invasion?
It may welll be that they originally thought it was just pirates hitting a larger chunk then normal, with units they found in a cache.
Media reports wouldn't be consistent, or reliable in any case. The intel department couldn't get alot thru, so the media would be far less likely to get any real information.
Not saying none would get thru, or the 'illegal' broadcasts wouldn't tip them off to something, but in general, the intel services would be the most likely to gain information.
As in the books for the Dragoon meeting, but Hanse and Theodore looked shocked when they found out just how badly the other was hit.
As a side note, would Comstar have been editing the information being sent from agents in all the realms involved?
You can't see a demand for payment? This is the IS we are talking about. Worlds would be changing hands, as what you said with Victor would be true especially with Hanse at the helm. You do not do anything that you don't gain on. Returning a few worlds to the LC/FC would be required in order to help fund the costs of lives and machines, to send forces into the FRR. The DC is a no brainer there. The FC/DC would believe they could retake the lost worlds, and if they waited, the entire FRR would basically beg to be rescued from the clans. This would allow both houses to carve up, and maybe even swallow the FRR again.
Now, you think the Phelan and Morgan would not face each other in a circle of equals? It would allow the IS to stall for more time, as well as satisfy the needs of both to stop the other from getting in the way. The clans would probably frown from the fact Morgan was a merc, even though he was duke of Arc-Royal. But his reputation would balnce that some.
And imagine the horror when the clanners watching it, found out about the stealth skill he had, as their targeting systems would not lock onto Morgan.
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Requiem
03/16/20 03:44 PM
101.185.93.54
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Even the FC/DC did not know the full extent of their own borders, which comes to needing the question: Just how effective was Comstars covering the clans invasion?
The Clan front is only about one tenth the size of the 4th Succession War – if there was confusion the Successor States would demand an explanation from ComStar. However, there are other sources of communication – from a pony express jumpships - to survivors of a Clan assault ….. media stations providing them with a copy of their footage of the battle / gun camera footage …..
Initial reports are one thing but by the second wave there can be no doubt ….
If the IS can set up partisan forces then communication can get through as to what is occurring upon captured worlds, I have a hard time believing there is an absolute blackout of information coming out of these worlds ….
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As in the books for the Dragoon meeting, but Hanse and Theodore looked shocked when they found out just how badly the other was hit.
Looking at how badly you are being hit it should not have come as a surprise how badly the other is faring at the same time given they have a smaller military and have to contend with an equal number of worlds being attacked at the same time – it should have been anticipated …… casualties should have been quantifiable based upon your own loss depletion reports.
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As a side note, would Comstar have been editing the information being sent from agents in all the realms involved?
If an agent gets off world and is asked to explain their message, and it comes to light that ComStar did edit the message there will be hell to pay when they are called to account.
This is a GM call – but be prepared for the backlash if they are caught doing so.
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You do not do anything that you don't gain on.
Luthien – where is the gain in this?
It is an enemy Capitol world – Rasalhague is a capitol world – it is closer than Luthien – it must not fall as if the Ralahaguian’s fall then the Clans can penetrate beyond either the Fed-Com or DC containment line and if that occurs how will they move forces quickly to contain the Wolves?
No matter how you look at it both the Fed-Com and the DC must assist the FRR in battle to maintain a single containment line against this unknown enemy. It just doesn’t hold water to believe that the Fed-com or the DC would allow the FRR to fall as it would just come back to bite them militarily if they did so.
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This would allow both houses to carve up, and maybe even swallow the FRR again.
Problem: They would have to kick all the Clans out of the IS FIRST before this could be considered a possibility – so wouldn’t a united and combined front be in your best interest in achieving this?
Thus you will need Fed-Com (as CC doesn’t exist they are included in Fed-Com forces), DC, FRR, ComStar, Wolf’s Dragoons should be on the front line by wave2 to wave 3. Only FWL has the possibility of sitting this out initially. However, post year of “peace” renamed year of preparation they should be beginning to send forces to the front.
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Now, you think the Phelan and Morgan would not face each other in a circle of equals?
They would communicate over the radio – if a battle did occur how long would Phelan last when he doesn’t have his father’s ghosting (stealth skill) ability? His father would just end up re-capturing him – the clans would just see him as no longer belonging to them and they would just leave him to his father.
Stealth Skill – how many within the IS should have this ability – should it have been also seen within the Clans at the same time?
One more point that defies logic or was left out of the game because it was considered too problematic – or too similar to the similar to the Gundam phenomena of newtypes.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/16/20 05:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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Luthien was a gain in the aspect Hanse knew the FC could not handle the clans themselves. He almost invaded Luthien to finally be done with them, but decided they need to remain to keep the DC alive to fight back.
With moving the forces off of the FS border, it allowed Hanse to move forces as well.
So there is your advantage, canon style.
Reports from survivors and the pony express? Not possible at least in the first 2 waves. From the sounds of it, all defenders were either killed or captured. Comstar DID shut down out going coms. They faked reports to make the house leaders think all was fine.
As stated before, punishing Comstar would be difficult. The after effects of operation Scorpion shows that. The houses just could not make the coms network work correctly. But to even attempt to do anything while the invasion was going on would have been far worse. ALL coms would be shut down in the accusing nation. Take it by force, but if you can't use it, then what do you do? The black boxes were not set up for what was going on. Stupid, but wasn't set up on worlds in that area. Most thought the HPG network would function as normal.
The worlds closer to Terra were better defended, as they were built up because of the wars. They were high priority, if not top priority to be taken when possible. More pill boxes and traps to take out enemy units. Granted, with Comstar helping them, how much of this data was available to the clans?
All knew the FRR was a lost cause. Both the FC and the DC would have used this in order to take those worlds, as the FRR could not hold. With the war, the mentality of guarding my own, comes up. Sending in forces to defend the FRR while your own worlds are in danger is counter productive for that mind set.
In a simulator battle, Phelan did defeat Morgan in battle. The Wolfhound vs the Archer. Manual targeting and tell the comp where to fire. First time I had ever heard of that, which along with the stealth skill sounds like bs.
Granted the simulator computer said the shot destroyed Morgans mech, I want to say engine, in game terms, it would have had to be the thru armor hit IE a roll of 2 on the dice for location, and then 3 crit (12) for the number of crits.
But again.
The fact that Morgan was the first recorded pilot to have it, suggests no continuity. No one in history up to that point, could do that. Then the combine general figured out how to do so in his time at a monestary. What a bunch of bs.
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Requiem
03/17/20 06:44 AM
101.185.93.54
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Luthien was a gain….
The same could be said for Rasalhague – it would also allow him {Hanse} to move forces, and it is an earlier time frame.
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……all defenders were either killed or captured.
Where is this written for ALL the Invading Clans?
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Comstar DID shut down out going coms. They faked reports to make the house leaders think all was fine.
How can an invasion of worlds by an unknown entity …. whilst at the same time these worlds HPG’s go dark …. and at the same time ComStar is stating everything is fine on these worlds.
Sooner or later the IS great houses will know that these worlds have been invaded – so what is going to be the next cover story?
And when asked to if they would provide their ComGuard to get back these worlds what are they going to say?, especially if it is caught on camera and given to CMM.
If ComStar says no they will be seen as heartless to their own people – so will units go rouge just like when Victor needed their assistance – I would say yes – and what about their reputation with the people of the Inner Sphere – their reputation would be totally lost!, especially if a house unit rescued a ComStar HPG station before the Clans over ran it.
Using their own image as well as the existence of the ComGuard can bite them in the _______.
How can they explain their own heartlessness to their own adepts as well as their HPG stations – remember they are a religious order! - wouldn’t they desire to recover them also?
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……how much of this data was available to the clans?
How could they have known as the Dragoons would have cut them off by then.
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All knew the FRR was a lost cause.
It really didn’t have to be – as stated before why would you allow the Clans to punch through to your rear? – by assisting the FRR you can attempt to contain any clan advance. By assisting the FRR you are assisting your own forces as if they retreat the FRR forces could end up on one of your Houses worlds and they could then assist defending this world.
The thought that House would just, look after their own, is a completely illogical idea.
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The fact that Morgan was the first recorded pilot to have it, suggests no continuity. No one in history up to that point, could do that. Then the combine general figured out how to do so in his time at a monastery. What a bunch of bs.
Soon after this the ability was nurfed – so that was that – but if one person could figure it out others should have been allowed to do so. But then arguments would be made as to who has this ability and how they got it – especially when the Clans arrive in the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/17/20 12:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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Moving forces? The ones on the DC border? For the alt, the ones on the FWL border?
Moving the forces needed was difficult to figure out where they can be moved from. In the history of the succession wars, the enemy loved for you to have issues, as that normally meant they could hit a weakened target. In the beginning of the invasion, they did not understand how bad the threat was.
Capture might be a small umbrella for the IS soldiers on worlds hit by the clans. In this case, I was using captured to also cover unable to leave the world or get out a message.
Along this line, Hanse did state in one of the books, the FC figured out comstar was messing with intel, as they had a few worlds start looking like the information coming from there was fake. And since Comstar did negotiate doing so with the clans in the periphery, they could do so with even the first "IS" world they hit.
I can see where interdiction would be mistaken in this form. There was still things coming out of the worlds, just not the truth of what was happening. Too focused on interdiction of the intel messages and such to suggest the worlds were under attack.
Comstar does NOT get worlds back for any house. They would not even start trying as it leads to real issues. They might retake their HPGs and other facilities, but not the world. They are 'neutral' and must remain so, in order to avoid what should have happened before Operation Scorpion. But then they would have had even more problems. Without the black box, and in some cases even with the black box, how to you deal with a nation as large as the CC at it's prime, much less the FC? The boxes work for things that aren't time sensitive, like being raided or attacked? Even a national disaster would require a quick response. Jump ships in the system do help, but those worlds, even those under attack would have to have a ship ready to jump when it starts. Not sit even a few days to recharge.
This is getting into a touchy subject, so I will keep it short if I can. Religion does not always teach good concepts. Cults being one that comes to mind as being a majority for teaching things that are bad to most. Hope this shuts down that conversation.
Most of the clans thought the Dragoons would hit the IS, and never report back again. So most suspected it would happen, but when was a shock. Comstar may well have given out the information they had on worlds, which may be why their intel on what was there, was so good. With the name changes in units, caused issues, as the clans did not have intel on them. I wonder if this point was kept quiet in the canon story. It would explain the omnipotent information the clans had on worlds with units being repositioned and even new fortifications being built.
In the case of the FRR, the enemy would not be punching into your rear. The worlds near Terra were better defended then a lot of those further out. And a lot easier to reinforce from near by units. For canon, this may not have done much more then show the numbers of the invaders was insufficient, or show their hands that they did not really think out the weight of the vehicles other then just suggest 4 vehicles deploy for each clan mech would be an attrition fight.
The idea that if I can defend my people, and let an enemy of my enemy take out the long term enemy, stretching out their resources a bleeding themselves, I can come in as a savoir a liberate these people, they will help me instead of resist me comes to mind. Even having the bulk surrender to me, then go on the offensive is a preferred scenario. Otherwise, every world you take will be a fight even after the world is 'secured'.
Actually, the ability is outlined in the Kell Hounds. It is still a very powerful magic as the story of Morgan fighting from a hill top against the clans and taking down more then a few with them barely touching his archer. But still. They didn't keep it consistent, nor did it look like it was play tested well enough. I guess the belief the ability to gain it was so small, it would not be a problem. In canon, they controlled who did. In peoples games, well one person said their entire company had the skill and could not be beaten in mech to mech combat. This skill is one of the ultimate max uber skills the game even allowed.
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Requiem
03/18/20 03:21 AM
101.185.93.54
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Moving forces?
Yes, from throughout the Fed-Com – and as per Canon Clan Invasion era none of the other Succession States participated in any major cross border action.
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Hanse did state in one of the books, the FC figured out comstar was messing with intel
Then why didn’t he obtain proof then call them in their Precentor’s to explain themselves?
If this information is distributed IS wide ComStar’s reputation would be destroyed.
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They are 'neutral' and must remain so, in order to avoid what should have happened before Operation Scorpion.
Disagree – once their HPG stations start to disappear even their own adepts will be expecting the ComGuard to ride forth and put the sword to these invaders – not doing so would cause many to ask questions as to why?
From CMM talk shows to their own people – how many units would move without orders to assist in defending these worlds?
Many would see that it is ComStar’s duty to work with the Successor states to repel these invaders ….
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Most of the clans thought the Dragoons would hit the IS, and never report back again.
Since when did the concept of military intelligence become the absence of any information whatsoever regarding the target?
Why would ComStar provide information to the Clans? – if one person talks this could be the end of ComStar – every House will attempt to nationalize them (success rate unknown)– the remaining ComGuard will do who knows what – at the very least every high ranking ComStar person will have to resign and permanently remove themselves from ComStar – the entire ComGuard would have no choice but to assist in repelling the invaders ….. the entire ComStar organization would have to reformed …..
The consequences would be incredible to the former ComStar Organization and its people.
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It would explain the omnipotent information the clans had on worlds with units being repositioned and even new fortifications being built.
So now the Clan’s require military intelligence?
Why didn’t we see a period on problems with regards to the Clans – then Focht contacting them – then followed by a more stream lined attack pattern that represents their access to increased information?
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In the case of the FRR, the enemy would not be punching into your rear.
How can anyone believe this is true? Standard military doctrine would indicate an envelopment strategy – even with a 1% chance you must take it as a certainty and plan for it in the future – any envelopment would cause mass disruption to the FCAF and DCMS on the front line at this stage.
Question – what would happen to the Clans if every unit that was used in the 4th Succession War was used against them and then the 50 ComGuards Regiments were included?
My bet ….. totally destroyed in no time flat ….
The Idea that one House has sufficient forces to take on all the Clan forces at one time (even if they are partially damaged by fighting with another House) is a stretch – realistically it will take all the Houses + Comstar to effectively eject them from the IS.
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…… the ability is outlined in the Kell Hounds. It is still a very powerful magic as the story of Morgan fighting from a hill top against the clans.
This is a massive missed opportunity …. This story could have even rivaled Wolves on the Border if written correctly … I believe the fans would have appreciated a story around this premise!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/18/20 04:00 AM
66.74.60.165
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So you are saying the beginning to middle of a story needs to change because of information only abtained from the end? This is not a time warp story. As per canon suggests clinging to an 'improbable' story line.
Canon only started moving major amounts of units, when the DC moved theirs from their borders.
Still don't understand that there is nothing the IS, especially Hanse, could do to Comstar at this point, other then try and go around them, like he did in the 4th war. You accuse Comstar and what happens? The entire IS turns on them? Not going to happen. As it looks like it was just clan movements that were being blacked out, he still needed them to get messages across the IS faster then the black boxes could. And for the economy, they needed it as well.
And who would pass judgement on Comstar? They are pretty much the rich breaking the law, but their money and power prevent prosecution. Until they can actually run the coms without Comstar, they are stuck.
The adepts in Comstar were in a religious mind set. They did not break from orders given to them. The books did say more then a few were not happy with helping the clans over the IS. And the stations didn't disappear. They still sent and recieved messages. Most sent were false, when the clans invaded a world. The only crew that would really know what is going on, is the ones on the world that is being invaded. Those outside of a radius would not even know this.
The talk shows only had what ever infornation was available. Even having their own spy network would not allow them to see what was going on. There is no such thing as an illegal radio broadcast being sent out to tell others what was going on. There was not subs to sneak people out of the area. Any that did, had to have it set up before the clans got there.
Proving accusations is required. Even if the religious nuts would talk, the official word would be they did not do anything of the sort. The adept or what ever their rank is, was under a lot of stress and finally snapped. The are halucinating.
Sound like almost every country in the world as well as big businesses?
Also, you are talking about Walterly's tenure running Comstar. Operation Scorpion showed she was not in touch with reality for a while.
What information do you have to say they didn't change their tactics to meet the IS defenses? More troops then originally intended to invade worlds? A longer time to actually take the world? Even which worlds to hit first, then take others? I did not see an invasion plan that said Alpha galaxy will split into 3 parts and hit these three worlds, and 2 weeks later, Beta Galaxy will hit these ones. As for requiring the intel at that point, I think it was more to take worlds easier. They probably would have taken them, but at a higher cost to their own forces.
Enveloping strategy? Isn't that splitting your forces? As stated, the border between the FC and DC still had most of their forces in place. Even once they started moving from the FS border, there were still units guarding that area. Probably more then were fighting the clans directly. So it would not be the rear.
What would happen is the question that will never be answered by canon. If the war was really fought like taking on another house, the vehicles would have been in the fight, not just targets scouting for them. We already know that. So even if the units that fought in the 4th and 3039 wars would still have done better then the canon story says. But then the clans would have been stopped long before Comstar went from being in league with the clans to being the hero.
According to your list of regiments and such constantly, you are now suggesting that the DC alone, couldn't take out the clans? And even more funny is the FC not being able to?
They could not do it fighting all of them at once, and this would include the home clans. But hitting them one at a time, there should be no real issues, except countering the warships, for canon.
The alt can have planets fart enough to explode incoming dropships. It is limited to someones imagination. But again. Get away from canon completely. Taking out the CC changes the entire 'history' before the clans invade. Coming up with things like this is just arguments. This would not occur with changing the past..
The stealth skill should never have been included in the game. The skill is more effective then ECM and such combined. The Kell hounds must have been one of the leads unit, as I can't figure out any other reason why magic is used to save them
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Requiem
03/18/20 07:15 AM
101.185.93.54
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ComStar
What happens when you are caught helping the enemy – what will your own people do? – what will the ComGuard do?
Doubt the people involved will be alive shortly thereafter.
If the entire IS turns on them they could quite easily nationalize their entire HPG stations per house – Refer Castro.
As for their money and power – their money would now go to each House’s coffers – don’t see any objections
As for the ComGuard they are controlled by Focht – a former Steiner Lord – do you relly think he would shed a tear for those that betrayed the IS?
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The adepts in Comstar were in a religious mind set. They did not break from orders given to them.
And this has been seen in how many religious orders throughout history?
Sorry but no I really cant see this working …..
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The talk shows only had what ever infornation was available.
How many large media organizations have reporters in or near every country in the world so that they can be the first with the news?
Same here in the IS – a station the size of CMM (House Steiner) would have agents scattered on all important worlds – if they require the underground to get their message out my bet is they will be able to do it – same here in large population worlds they should be able to hide – get great pictures and report on what the clans are doing – the IS spy’s / military intelligence would use them as a means to gather information and then send it out with the next scheduled run.
Soon thereafter it will be on CMM and reported around the IS via CMM and it’s affiliate stations.
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What information do you have to say they didn't change their tactics to meet the IS defenses?
How many battles were fought using blitzkrieg tactics – how many were not fought with these tactics?
On the balance of probability the former rather than the latter.
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Enveloping strategy?
Yes it is – another Battle of the Bulge all over again …..
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you are now suggesting that the DC alone, couldn't take out the clans?
The DC can not take on all the Invading Clans on their own, not even the Fed-Com could do this – it takes multiple houses to win
Just like it would take at a minimum of three Clans working together to reach Terra – or increase the invading Clans by a factor of three …. It just doesn’t work with the limited numbers given - all the Clans would run out of available forces by the mid point.
You cannot deal with the Clans one at a time – they must all be dealt with at the same time!
The idea that this can be done as per canon just shows how childish the story got at that time frame.
Either the game stays with a child’s view or it progresses onward- after 35 years there needs to be a change so that it can grow and earn more profit and survive as is ?
The stealth skill – not fully thought through? A response to Gundam’s Next pilots?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/18/20 10:47 AM
66.74.60.165
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In the alt, you can shoot every Comstar worker and get away with it. In real life, they are much like the Vatican. No matter what you want to do or think, you are just not going to be able to do much to punish them. Comstar has a lot of people across the IS that aren't workers for them, but support them over their own governments. Operation Scorpion was enough to keep those people from rebelling when the IS did finally punish them. And those in the FWL were given refugee(WOB),
And with this, Comstar seems to be a cult like religion. The workers basically get a basic brainwashing.
Again, the lack of scale on how to get to another planet. If the underworld had access to getting on and off the planet as the clans hit, then they would have done it, and never gone back. So the only news you might get is the world has been hit. And with Comstar hiding facts, they tell you nothing is wrong. So who do you believe? A dropship full of people or the coms network? Until the facts finally came out, any refugees were spreading a hoax. Broadcasting to other worlds relies on the HPG network. Hard copies can be sent, but require time, and for people to believe it. Comstar is after all, the master of lies.
And to blitz the enemy, you have to have a good idea where their forces are. How many units would go to ground as soon as they realize they were not going to win a stand up fight? Most would do the hit and runs as is normal for such an invasion. As the clans tried to avoid overkill, they did have their cut off forces at a set level. The longer battles tended to be from the inability to take down the defenders easily, or they had better plans for dealing with invaders. In the end, it seems the clans found almost
I was going to say we don't have any information to say they did or didn't, but that isn't true. Walterly herself was giving the clans intel on worlds to hit after they failed at Luthien. She was trying to get them to bleed out the FC at least, maybe the DC as well. That is when they were informed Terra was their goal. So with that, Comstar did in fact give intel to the clans.
Referring to Gundam Wing isn't going to work. I don't watch it. The little I seen was beyond believable, and down right a case of the next person having a bigger gun. It would be like saying a hand blaster on a land speeder can kill the death star from the surface of a planet. Entertaining, but unbelievable in any sense.
If you think Battletech is not an adult game, then stop dealing with it. Make a full set of your own rules and do all the design work, as well as story lines and leave the rest of us out of it. Most may not like some of the plots and stories, but it is not going to make them all turn against the game and get the developers to do as they want. If the developers did and get caught, the game is as good as dead. Check out the official board if you can get on it. The rabid yesmen are what the developers tend to listen to. Since they support all of what the developers do. And in some aspect, that is how it should be.
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Requiem
03/18/20 05:12 PM
101.185.93.54
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Quote:
Comstar
Religion / Cult ?
Issue what happens if every adept knows that your very distant places of worship has been attacked and no one can make contact with them (they have gone dark). At the same time your religion / cult has a vast army and yet the leader decides to do nothing - and as time goes on more and more of your places of worship disappear behind an attacking force and yet still the leader does nothing ….
Basically this would to the adepts and to their community as a whole would view this as a puzzling …..
Plus every adept within the system would know that their Stations are being captured, their people lost ….. even CMM is reporting about the war, so …….
Why would religion or a cult, who has a vast military, allow any of their places of worship to be attacked and their people effectively taken prisoner by an unknown force ….
And why wouldn’t they also at the same time put in place contingency plans for those places of worship who are in the path of these unknown attackers – why haven’t they arranged for their safety, to be brought to safety in the event they are attacked – wouldn’t their adepts and the community at large believe that they send their military units could be sent in advance to protect these adepts and take them to safety in the event their world is attacked?
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Again, the lack of scale on how to get to another planet.
Again?
Question with the entire ComGuard scattered throughout the IS – agreement with every successor state to put their forces on their HPG stations scattered around the IS - how was it able to be reconstituted on Tukayyid so quickly if ComStar didn’t have a vast fleet of Jumpships?
Then when we look at the scale of the 4th Succession War and the massive movements that occurred during this war…
Then when we come it to the size of the Clan Invasion …. one fifth to one tenth the size?
Sorry But it looks as though there would more than enough able transport available …..
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And to blitz the enemy, you have to have a good idea where their forces are.
And how many battles were written this way by TPTB rather than conducting a war that anyone else would consider normal?
When you read about the invasion battles it is the same battle over and over again ….. with very few changes …..
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Comstar did in fact give intel to the clans
How ? …. Focht? As he is their only ambassador …… <which raises questions as to his character and why this was never picked up in the future>
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Story
Put a Battletech Novel side by side with a Warhammer 40K book
Look at the size difference
Look at the language difference
Look at the difference in their stores complexity / as well as the number of products being produced …….
What does this say?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
03/18/20 06:51 PM
71.47.151.234
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Quote:
Plus every adept within the system would know that their Stations are being captured, their people lost ….. even CMM is reporting about the war, so …….
Why would religion or a cult, who has a vast military, allow any of their places of worship to be attacked and their people effectively taken prisoner by an unknown force ….
If you're talking about the Clan invasion, the Clans generally left ComStar in place in the Invasion corridor until after Operation Scorpion.
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When you read about the invasion battles it is the same battle over and over again ….. with very few changes …..
Every one was scripted differently on different maps, different forces, and with different tactics. If the summaries in, say, the Wolf Clan sourcebook read a little generically, that's because they're shortened summaries.
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Comstar did in fact give intel to the clans
How ? …. Focht? As he is their only ambassador
Focht was not the only ComStar rep to talk with the Clans. Virtually every Precentor in the invasion corridor got marching orders to work with the Clans early in the invasion. Old, pre-Schism ComStar's leadership was overjoyed to see the return of Kerensky's children since they offered a clear path to destroying the FedCom titan. (This changed, of course, when ComStar found out the Clans wanted Terra.)
Since ComStar worked hard to keep captive populaces under control for the Clans, supplied lots of local information, and happily worked with the Clan HPG network, the Clans left ComStar in place until Operation Scorpion.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
03/18/20 08:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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The workers at Comstar did what they were told to, and when you didn't ROM was there to make sure it wasn't repeated. They were probably told by the bosses a semi truth about those stations. They were not hostile take overs, and no one was killed or even hurt. They would not tell them that an agreement was made before the clans came into the IS itself. And with the stations still broadcasting, the didn't go dark. They just did not send out the truth to the rest of the IS.
Being able to move from one world to another, would prevent a majority of the news getting out thru the underworld. I guess the rest of that paragraph didn't sink in. Once the clans landed, anyone that could would have gotten out and not gone back. So updated news is not going to be happening any time soon. Unless the news stations have their own HPG network and haven't shared with anyone else.
Read the part where I said WALTERLY gave intel to the clan command. She was trying to get them to hit specific worlds outside of the invasion corridor. In the book, she said they had the forces to take out several worlds. It was a this point they told her Terra was their goal. They said something to the effect that they were not going to waste forces on those assaults Walterly wanted.
Focht wouldn't be trusted if he did just hand out intel on the IS. I am sure he passed on what he was told to, or requested by some. It seems the battles Comstar didn't know much about where the ones that successfully were defended.
Put what ever you want side by side. They are two different systems. Trying to make them both the same is just asking for lawsuits. Also, if I wanted to play Warhammer, I would play Warhammer. I don't agree with everything done, or being done, but if I want to play Battletech, and be able to play with several groups, then I have to deal with what is decided to be done. Consistency is lacking in a few things. I don't expect that to be changed because I said so.
The alt can do whatever. But it seems the lack of understanding canon is a major problem. Saying it is wrong, because you don't like it, doesn't cut it with me. I agree with a lot of points that come out, but there is no real way to fix them and run anything close to canon. Hanse should probably have died when the 'death commandos' hit New Avalon. The RPG skill natural aptitude had to be nerfed when it came to gunnery skills. The idea of the DC letting Melissa escape from the Silver Eagle affair wouldn't really have happened. But to keep their idea of the story line going on, that is just what happens. Imagine if the real concept of Ian Davion sitting on New Avalon and sending Hanse to deal with Harrow's Sun was done. Hanse would be dead. No further story line with him. The FC wouldn't have come about. Even the 4th war would not have happened. So you want alts, them make them alts. Not some sideshow for your 'logic defying writing of canon'.
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Requiem
03/19/20 04:45 PM
1.158.222.248
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Quote:
The workers at Comstar did what they were told to, and when you didn't ROM was there to make sure it wasn't repeated.
This is not assisting one house or another …. This is assisting an invader ….. please re-read first few pages from 1st Somerset Strikers from a ComStar Adept …..
No, they will not sit by and just meekly obey as do they not see themselves as the Guardians of the Star League?
If others wish them to do nothing that is their right but If the higher ups will do nothing then many can help will help and they will break from ComStar – behold the new Word of Blake who are Templar Militant in their desire to protect the IS and their Adept breather-in from these invaders.
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Being able to move from one world to another, would prevent a majority of the news getting out thru the underworld.
Been through this before …. It may not be an immediate message even if it if one to three months out of date it will get out …… commando missions into the clans rear / black box technology message it WILL ensure that their message is seen by the people of the IS.
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Read the part where I said WALTERLY gave intel to the clan command.
Who was doing this on her behalf? As she was on Terra, was she not?
So why would Focht put up with this given he was once a Steiner Lord?
Sorry but this does not mesh with who his personality is supposed to be (again) when writing a personality for a character you cannot just change it on a whim and then put it back like nothing happened. If he was told to betray the IS, just like Scorpion, he would shoot Walterly! And if he caught anyone else attempting this he would throw them out the airlock! – thus he should be the First Grand Master of the WoB Templar Militant if Walterly went down this line …..
When making a comparison between Warhammer and Battletech
In the beginning Warhammer was very similar to that of Battletech in the size of their novels etc – however with correct management they have evolved into a massive company – what happened to Battletech’s Management and thus the game – they have massive retail shops and massive products per moth - B’tech has just the internet and very few products per year?
logic defying writing of canon'
death commandos' hit New Avalon. – every Dropship coming near to the Capitol should have a massive security wing watching it – so as soon as they began their mech drop they should have come under attack – plus where were the security mechs patrolling the Capitol – in truth he would not have been the first one there more likely somewhere in the 20’s …
Melissa …. Comes down to intelligence and the speed of your forces Vs that of the enemy …. Many hijacked aircraft have been taken back by commando forces so why not here in the future?
How many other Logic Holes are within the game that make no sense
Thomas Marik surviving a blast within a closed room – shock wave should have killed him
Turlte Bay – this should have started a nuclear war against the clans
Huntress – this should have give the IS a complete shift in their technology to that of being on par with the Clans within 10 -20 years at the most.
What about Omni Mechs – every Mech produced after the clans invasion should be recreated with Omni Tech the idea that the IS would still stick with mono weapon mechs / fighters is laughable
Do I need to go on?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/19/20 10:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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Invader is not a term to use in this case. A rival house attacking a planet it an invader. To be honest, the fact that the clans were the return of the SLDF would give them a good reason on why to accept them back into the IS. The problem is both organizations wanted the same thing for themselves. Control of the IS.
I think it was bad for the story to have them work together for a while, but I can understand some of the logic.
Workers, especially ones that have good jobs, are not going to riot if things don't go their way. The talk of such in all threads suggests you expect them to rise up on a moments notice for any reason what so ever. A .00001 percent raise in taxes, and the world burns down everything sort of concept evolves from this.
Also, this runs counter to being loyal to your leaders. Why revolt to go back to them, if conditions for your aren't that bad? Some would have issues, but then some would love those same ones. Remove the noisy children from an area, and now you can relax. I don't really think it is right, but there is the other side to that.
Going thru things a few times and still it seems the logic isn't getting thru. The alt may have every world with black boxes and enough jumpships to move everyone in the IS one person at a time, but canon did not. As you are saying canon is wrong and you are right is causing issues with this. We were discussing canon, then boom. The alt shows up to support your argument that canon is wrong, or the statements made are wrong.
Canon is illogical and not self supporting seems to be what is said. Yet not getting away from it is the case. So basing logic arguments on an illogical basis, and think it is logical does not work. Rewrite all you want. Your foundation is quicksand in a rain storm.
If I remember right, Walterly was talking face to face with Ulric. I would have to go thru the boxes to find the book again to verify this.
Don't really know human psycology I see. Focht is a convert, which seems move of a zealot then those that have been in the order since being teens. He may not like Waterly, but he does work with the first circuit. They probably supported the idea of using the clans against the houses, including against Kurita. More then a few didn't like them.
Now where in the history of a commercial company does the underling kill the boss because they didn't like the way things were going? The only time I hear of anything like this is when the person gets fired. Focht is also a Steiner lord that was found guilty of plotting against the ruling governor at that time and kicked out. He was supposed to die, not get saved. So why wouldn't he want to see some in the LC burn for that? And for the DC, well that is icing on the cake. Even the FS and FWL would be likely targets for his anger.
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ghostrider
03/19/20 11:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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Now I love this next part.
Every ship in the area needs an escort. How many troops do you have guarding the world? You want to send everything to the front lines, and not have anything but militia there.
Now the books explains WHY the ship got to where it did, and how the troops landed. The dropship was using an IFF code from a secret ship that the computers say is authorized for landing without security. I think it was Hanses command dropship. If not for him being in the control room, which sounds a lot like favoring the FS, then the raid would have been far deadlier then what it was.
Maybe the forces that normally guard the palace were in the CC or defending against the DC? I want to say the normal forces are listed as doing such.
Well let's see. The Silver Eagle was taken in DC space with only a help call suggesting something was up. The forces that went to rescue her, had no possible way to get from where they were, to her location that quickly. 2 jumps minimum if I recall. So this is before the Ion-Lithium batteries, so 2 weeks minimum. They knew who they were after, and it would not take 2 weeks to find someone on that dropship. Given the nature of the DC, it would be likely the passengers would be killed one by one until they found her. So no. There would be no timely rescue if done logically.
There are a few ways Thomas could have survived, but doubtful any of them would have happened. The bomb was shaped in a way to leave a small location with a weaker blast area, that didn't have the explosion head out that powerfully. Furniture, as well as being behind someone for shrapnel. Even where the bomb was, verse where he was standing at. As it didn't say it took out the building, the explosion may have been to weak. I didn't hear anything of other people being injured by it, that weren't in the room.
A nuke war would not start, as the houses pretty much agree that once it is used, there would be no stopping it. The logic holes forming here is not wanting to have the game rules be the logic of things. Nukes do not work right in the game. Deal with it. They are not the mother of all weapons in the game. The alt is fine.
The IS tech should not have been so bad when the clans came. It was written as such, as the IS having anything close, would have really stopped that whole story arc. Numbers was not enough to get them to increase the clans number, but near equal tech would have.
Realistically, the IS making Omni mechs that were perfect in a year or two would have been completely wrong. Without clan input that is. By the time the IS when to huntress, most, if not all, of the quirks would have been worked out, and the IS have more, and much better omnis. But even at this point, the IS should have already had working clan tech. The cost angle might be believable for the first 5 years. But even then, they would still press forward with it, as it is proven tech that will work. Not the garbage of the XXL engines and such. The extended jump jets were never seen working, and yet money was poured into that.
The game isn't dying so much because of the story line, but because the rules have a lot to be desired. From what I have seen, more then a few don't even know or care about what is happening outside of their little game.
Warhammer started off dealing with rules for massive units for almost any game. A generic set up, that expanded into what it is today. Much like GURPS. I want to say 20k was their first run of it, then got to 40k. Maybe running the numbers in that game will show some issues. You can only replace so many skilled people each year. So many ships each year. Production seems to be larger then it should be. But oh well. People like to play it.
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Requiem
03/20/20 03:13 AM
1.158.222.248
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Invader, Noun, a person or group that invades a country, region, or other place.
Considering the psychology of rebels as it relates to Adepts – from a religious order – yes if they have morality they will rebel.
So yes if Walterly did go through with assisting the Clans by supplying them with information – in my opinion – Focht would have initiated a schism that would have split ComStar in two – one still controlled by Walterly and the other based around the majority of the ComGuards (Knights Templar) can be considered quite plausible.
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it seems the logic isn't getting thru.
I agree – loot at the number of units used in the 4th SW and then consider the number of ships required – as well as the number of ships that would be required to bring together the ComGuard (spread throughout the IS) and how it was reformed on Tukayyid then compare it to the number of units used against the clans – notice that many are already on world – and it is quite evident that yes the ships are there!
The argument made is not there.
As per Canon I would say the ships numbers are there – there is no quicksand.
If Focht is a Zealot then why did he shoot her in the back?
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How many troops do you have guarding the world?
How many conventional fighters would you expect upon a Capitol World and within the Capitol City itself.
Base Minimum one to three RCTs at any one time.
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Now the books explains WHY the ship got to where it did, and how the troops landed.
And this proves how idiotic this statement is – where / when has any Capitol had its entire regular forces depleted to the extent that only the militia remains?
The entire Capitol during war would have a ready reaction force of one battalion of each military (Mech, Armor, Air, Infantry) at all times – to think otherwise is stretching the bounds or reality way too far.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Silver_Eagle_Incident
please re-read……
Thomas Marik
In a brick room the shock wave should have killed everyone within the room ….
Only if the room was made of ply wood and the shockwave was able to punch through could he have survived / or if there was something of considerable size and density between him and the explosion within the room ….
Suggest reading Operation Valkyrie (WW2)
Turtle Bay
We have been through this before – there is an entire argument on the fact – they are Samurai and they have been attacked and suffered a loss of face / there can be one response – the destruction of the warship in question – given that there is only one weapon on hand that can take on a warship at that time (the nuke) – yes they will nuke it out of existence and as such they will go after every Jag warship the same way!
Deal with it – this is the only response to a Samurai society at this point in time!
If nukes are to be removed then the IS powers must have warships at this time!
Pre and post huntress - there are issues when it comes to Tech – as well as getting the maximum bang your buck via an omni mech – their efficiency and cost per unit especially when it comes to repair (mass production reducing a cost per unit basis) should mean that every Mech manufactured by the IS post Clan Invasion was an Omni – by not doing so shows a complete lack of understanding as to economic as well as military weapon requirements.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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