Requiem
04/05/20 05:53 PM
1.158.222.248
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How many ships does each clan have, and how many does the collective have? No numbers?
The Clan home Wolds have about 40 worlds total – why would just one clan need 1,750 ships and 5,000 drop-ships if they are so concerned about waste?
Consider the population of the Merchant caste of every Clan?
Yes there are no numbers – but these numbers do seems to be strange especially when you consider the number of ships assigned to each clan’s invasion fleet of the inner sphere?
[qote]So getting from Terra to even Twycross only takes a month?[/quote}
Being too literal – the closest units can be moved! And so on ……
Comprehension, again? As per above “the same here with regards to the Bears population – as it is reduced over 5 years how quickly will it be recognized by the other Clans? And as a consequence they should have attacked …..”
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but how would assassinating Victor be a mercy?
Every time he plays soldier the Fed-Com / Fed Suns Govt. would ggrind to a halt – Govt. requires his presence when it comes to signing a bill into law, when it comes to authorizing the budget etc – these are things that CANNOT be given away only he can ensure the smooth running of the Govt. – Playing Soldier puts the entire Govt. would be paralyzed until he signs many of the documents – when you consider what public expenditure includes you realize the level of problems Victors selfishness is causing his people.
This would have been drummed into him since birth as to his duty to his people – playing soldier and not looking after his people he is hurting all of his people – especially the most disenfranchised and those who require medical attention – plus education ….. and this would also include setting the military budget each year …..
Putting in a full time leader would ensure the efficiency of the government …. Something Katherine could do in her sleep.
If Victor wants to play soldier he should renounce the throne for Katherine …. A point his mother would have yelled at him … his actions by remaining on the front lines are causing more harm than good!
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The FC was running well without him getting involved in all the day to day grind.
Once again fiction …. and yet another pot hole …. How? Considering the scope of his empire and the military this shows a complete lack of understanding as to the level of work required by a government.
Killing Victor would restore order … leaving him alive is anarchy ….
Hohiro is NOT the coordinator he is the heir apparent …. Massive difference!
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Throughout the IS history, most leaders of the nations went to war
and in every case how did that work out especially when their leader did not have a child to take the reigns?
His duty is to run the government …. Create an heir …. It is NOT playing soldier!
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Which can be used against Katherine
Katherine has very good advisers for all things military whilst she is running the state – Nondi Steiner.
Where / who are Victors government advisors whilst he is on campaign? – never included
Massive difference in government accountability to assist the people they govern?
CEO’s – yes they can – it comes down the directors and their staff beneath them – to ensure the flow information.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/06/20 01:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Honestly, having all the warships could be considered wasteful. Fuel, upkeep, supplies among others. Being a warlike race, it makes some sense, but they have limited their combats with the trials. I don't see why they haven't keep most mothballed. Which may well explain why they have so many ships. Simply keeping the workers going, and just mothball them incase of a major emergency. They were concerned the IS would find them first after all.
Leaders being in the field is not that much of a strain on the government. Very few things would be done by him, and most of that can be done by fax or jumpship. Not pony express, as it would be a sure sign he was somewhere. Can't remember the DC's coordinator that ordered the Kentares massacre, but he was with hit troops invading the FS for years in an earlier succession war. A few others were doing the same thing.
You say no one can be given the rights to do things, then what does a regent do? The SLDF would have been completely paralyzed with Richard not being of legal age to do anything. England was running even with King Richard being captive. Yes, criminals were running it. And speaking of corruption, more then a few rulers themselves were corrupt to the core. But the governments still functioned without their top position filled.
Might need to really look at governments today. They can go on tours to other countries, golf, go to parties and meetings and such, and their nations still run. Regents can run the government when the ruler is busy. If they didn't, the clone of Hanse would have been found out long before it did. He would NOT know FS policies and such like the real one would. Even with extracting that information, you still would be stumbling for things.
Other then the loss of morale, Victor dying in the fields would not shut down the government. There were 3 other children beside him and Katherine that could be trained to do to. Hanse himself wasn't trained to run the FS when his brother died. So no. The princes and such for the 5 houses are not needed to run it. There were still advisors left over from Hanse and Melissa, as well as those that were helping him while he was still learning as well as being trained. Justin Allard being the first one that comes to mind. Morgan Hasek-Davion is another.
So you have supported the fact that CEOs don't do much work. They have groups of staff to do all the hard work, and alls the CEO does is say do it, or forget it.
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Requiem
04/06/20 06:57 PM
1.158.222.248
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keep most mothballed. Which may well explain why they have so many ships.
Since the Wolverines used Mothballed Warships to escape you would assume that there would be more advanced locks on the reserve fleet.
However this is 1,313 ships and 3,750 dropships
If one clan can take this number wouldn’t it be noticed and reported?
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Leaders being in the field is not that much of a strain on the government.
When the government is the size of the Fed-Com?
Completely unbelievable – he would need a massive communication system as well as a couple regiments worth of bureaucrats just to keep the government running – has anyone even considered having their government run from tents this close to the battlefront?
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Kentares massacre
Yes, very good point ….and what happened next …. the massive reversal in fortune of the DC – the FS pushed back and how many worlds did the FS get back?
Military problems … logistics problems …. Government problems …. All because the Coordinator was off the Capitol interfering ….
Did no one read Sun Tzu when it comes to Govt. interfering with the military?
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You say no one can be given the rights to do things, then what does a regent do?
Pardon?
The regent has the authority to act in the best interest of the First Lord – that is they do everything the First Lord does – the wheels of Govt. keep turning over!
King Richard being captive – his brother John was in charge – However, Richard was only ever in England for a hand full of days just to get the taxes he needed – he couldn’t even speak English as he was Norman French ……
But the governments still functioned without their top position filled. – there is always someone filling in for the top job.
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Might need to really look at governments today. They can go on tours to other countries, golf, go to parties and meetings and such, and their nations still run.
For short periods of time – not a problem the bureaucrats can accommodate – telecommunications available – they are only a couple of hours away by aircraft if they are needed.
However, when Victor engaged in an Operation to fight the Clans and then ticks off to Huntress this demonstrates his complete lack of understanding …. Yes he did put a Regent in power but he did not give her the support mechanism to assist Yvonne.
What did he think would happen given Yvonne’s lack of experience and Katherine’s cunning?
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There were 3 other children beside him and Katherine that could be trained to do to.
Law – The Rule of Succession would say otherwise ….. and
Peter is in a monastery;
Yvonne is a basket case;
Arthur would have preferred to have been an Sandoval of Robinson than a Steiner-Davion;
So that would have gone down like a lead balloon.
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Hanse himself wasn't trained to run the FS when his brother died.
Correct … the Govt needs a successor …. Where was Victors? In becoming First Price his duty was to sire a an heir not running around the battlefield!
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Justin Allard being the first one that comes to mind. Morgan Hasek-Davion is another.
Justin? Son of Quintus – his Government is with Cassandra?
Morgan – Capellan March – Task Force Serpent – prior to the birth of Victor he was the heir afterwards his position become more remote.
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So you have supported the fact that CEOs don't do much work. They have groups of staff to do all the hard work, and alls the CEO does is say do it, or forget it.
This is something the media would have you believe – it is NOT the case!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/06/20 06:58 PM)
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ghostrider
04/07/20 12:41 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is a difference between take and rent. I not sure which jumpships and dropships you used for the calculations, but I do admit, it does seem a bit more then what they should have available.
Also a thought. How many extra ships went with the invasion force? The numbers show combat units and such, but how many were sent that were fuel carriers as well as cargo ships for setting up the bases along the route? No matter how bad they thought the IS would roll over, they would not store HPGs and food on their combat vessels. Even with building some of this before they left, they still would not have given up their combat ships.
The DC governing is different from the FS/FC. There is a very strict limit to what regents can do while a coordinator is still alive. The FC runs a bit different. They are less worried about someone trying to make a coup. Doesn't mean there isn't any that would try. The regent would have the authority to do almost anything, with very few exceptions, legally. Proclamation of becoming the ruler is one of those illegal acts.
The statement of king Richard should solve the issue of the ruler not really being needed, other then a figure head. Only a hand full of days, and someone was filling in for the rest. Sounds like it can be done. And with the size of the FC, I would figure they have more then a dozen RCTs worth of people running just a march, much less the entire FC, Just to keep supplies moving. Might well be an RCTs worth for each world, depending on their size and what they actually do. Simple agriculture world would have less then say Hesperus or other heavy demand worlds. This isn't even going into intel, transportation or anything off world. So yeah. There would be millions involved in the government.
First off, did anyone really know Katherine was gunning for the top spot? It isn't like Hanse or Melissa really had to deal with a sibling trying to take the throne from them. When did she show signs she was going rogue? As for Yvonne, she would have seemed to be a figure head. Keep the seat warm sort of concept.
You mean not everyone in a royal house can do the job? Wow. That isn't a new concept. It still could get done. Yvonne lost it after Katherines campaign. Had it not been for that, she may well have become a good ruler. Time would have been the factor.
Victor would have been needed on the throne if the FC was in bad to dire straits. This was not the case. In fact, the FC was in a good place as the truce with the other nations in effect as well as the SL being formed. So the war front would move from raids and such, to just building defenses. Taxes were pretty much set for the entire nation. Katherine and Yvonne were in fact heads of the LC/FS, with Victor being a side show.
There are a few CEOs that did more then have their staff collect data for them to review. Lee Iacoca, the CEO that saved Crysler is one of them. But running 10 or as some reported as many as 500, this puts the idea of being extremely difficult to do, to shame. From the looks of it, more then a few seem to be good at absorbing money that could be used more efficiently. Like paying their workers, upgrading the facilities, and even paying their taxes. So with this, I can see why the IS has issues with money. A large chunk of industries and such would be late on paying their share.
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Requiem
04/07/20 04:17 PM
1.158.222.248
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How many extra ships went with the invasion force? The numbers show combat units and such, but how many were sent that were fuel carriers as well as cargo ships for setting up the bases along the route? No matter how bad they thought the IS would roll over, they would not store HPGs and food on their combat vessels
For me – as at 3000 when the first call came for the invasion by the Bear Khan – I had the Clans Building HPG stations to be strategically placed along the exodus route.
Ships – the largest ones available plus construction if it was found they needed more.
This Merchantman fleet is to come from all the Clans and is to be commanded by the Hall of Khans and the ilKhan. Security warships can be assigned on a round robin schedule from all the Clans.
It’s only function is to keep the flow of supplies to the Clans who are involved in the invasion – so depending on the Class of Jump-ships you could have an extensive fleet of Merchantmen moving between the Deep Periphery and Clan Space.
Though again giving the fleet 1300 ships will again seem excessive.
Though there is another option, for those that want to take it up, building the Leviathan fleet by all the Clans at the same time as the call for the invasion (3000) and the HPG stations. The Clans realized that they would need to re colonize the IS (post successful invasion) thus they created Colony worlds within the Deep Periphery (one for each Clan), and as such each Clan has been using this fleet to transfer a portion of their population to build their own Colony world.
Clan Ghost Bear rented the majority of it (payment the majority of their Clan worlds Holdings) to transfer their entire population into the IS over the five year period. Where it was then returned back to the Clan fleet.
So having 20 Leviathans, at one point in time, can make a little more sense to the game world as well as the future plans of the Clans – a follow up invasion to take command of the entire IS post current invasions’ success.
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The regent would have the authority to do almost anything, with very few exceptions, legally. Proclamation of becoming the ruler is one of those illegal acts.
It is the only thing a Regent cannot do – otherwise the Regent has the complete legal authority as the ruler of that realm.
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The statement of king Richard should solve the issue of the ruler not really being needed, other then a figure head. Only a hand full of days, and someone was filling in for the rest. Sounds like it can be done
Sorry no, there must be a King per say, the bureaucracy requires leadership.
It cannot take command – unless you want to change a Houses Government to that of a democracy and put an elected President in.
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did anyone really know Katherine was gunning for the top spot?
No, this was just added in with no warning whatsoever in an effort to increase the hype.
As for Yvonne, she is a basket case, it should have been obvious to everyone that she was ill suited for any senior position – marriage was her only real option.
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You mean not everyone in a royal house can do the job?
The Law of Succession is clear – In the absence of a legitimate child of the current monarch the position will go to the next person in line – Victor to Katherine to ….. from eldest to youngest, despite their mental and social issues.
(Something they forgot about when it came to Adam Steiner! – thus you got a Coup in all but name)
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Victor would have been needed on the throne if the FC was in bad to dire straits.
As soon as he took the Throne his days as being a Mech Warrior were over! A concept which was totally lost o him – and may have been a driving force behind Katherine’s decision to take the Throne from him – he was doing more harm than good ‘swanning around’ being a warrior than being the Monarch of a vast interstellar realm.
Victor would be adopting the image of the playboy – self indulgent hedonist (and given his stature and his desire to remain within the military – a Bonaparte-ist) if he pawned his position off on his two sisters rather than doing it himself.
A rulers position can be one, it is to be on the throne!
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Tax
Tax minimization schemes have been around for as long as Taxes have existed – depending upon individual Countries rules / together with international law there have always been ways to get around not paying your taxes.
Have a look at the top individuals / countries – have a look at their wealth then compare it to how much they pay in tax. Don’t be surprised if it usually end up being less than that of the poorest people in their country pay their taxes.
Today, many of these schemes involve transfer payments from one country to another (depending upon rates and legislation) and it easy to do when you place the company’s primary intangible asset (and Head office) in a different country to its operations and you then funnel the payments from operations through other countries and collecting tax concessions – as all money is to be sent as a payment to use the Logo to the Head office etc.
And that is just one of many different schemes that is currently out there.
Though I did like some of the older ones that have subsequently been closed – go to a 3rd world country purchase art and artifacts on the cheap – return home, obtain an outrageous valuation, donate it to the local Museum / Art Gallery and get a tax break for the full amount of the inflated valuation.
So don’t be surprised if this too still exists within the Battletech Universe.
Now thinking about it would the IRS / Tax Auditors have their own Battlemech Security force? In the event of a seizure of assets it may be necessary to obtain the assets by force ….. or SWAT team …..
Anyone want to run the IRS Tactical BattleMech Asset Recovery Unit or SWAT BattleMech Team?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/07/20 06:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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Honestly, I don't think the clans would have started building stations that long before the real invasion. They were concerned about the IS getting their tech when they were fighting, leaving stations out there would make it so much more likely.
The Comstar exploration units never found any in canon, but should have in the alt. They did after all, find the clans home worlds.
The HPG links that weren't in space would provided the IS with coms back home, so that wouldn't be done to far in advance.
It is funny that discussing a regent being able to run a government, yet having to have a butt on the actual throne sounds contradictory and circular in logic.
And almost all male leaders have served in the military. Not sure the length of time, but the round trip to the clan home worlds would be a bit excessive. Not impossible. And they did have some lines of communications back to the IS, as they were getting updates pretty regularly.
With Peter stepping down, so WOB did not have 'control' over the Archon, Who would really be next? To my knowledge none of Hanse's children had children of their own at this time, that was public? Nondi would be next in line, and she probably refused. So her child would come up next. I don't think anyone on the Davion side would come closer then that. Not sure how long they had Peter thinking about WHO to choose.
Going backwards in time, the leaders of tribe all over the world went to war, and even hunting with their warriors. They were gone for months at a time, and there wasn't an easy way to just call back if something was the problem. They would be in more need then most of the larger countries. In the U.S. the president seems to get information provided by others to make decisions on it. Congress makes up the laws, then it goes to him. So what else besides public relations do they do? They are not needed as much as they were in the 1500's.
Also, what is to stop one of the higher ups from making a decision until the leader gets back? Most rulers encourage smart choices. Not all were, but most tried.
Not sure if you know who Warren Buffet is, but he outright said he paid less in taxes then his secretary. He is a billionaire, that invests in business. His company owns quite a few big name companies, or has stock in them. He wasn't the only one, but one of the first. They have their games they do, and the non rich go to jail for it.
The government wouldn't allow the IRS to do that. Most of them would have assets being seized left and right. That would be down right embarrassing for them. To ask for more money in taxes and not be paying it themselves.
I want to rip on someone that is doing that, but need to keep out real life politics.
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Requiem
04/07/20 08:32 PM
1.158.222.248
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Honestly, I don't think the clans would have started building stations that long before the real invasion.
Consider the number HPG stations required from The Hall of Clans – into the Deep Periphery and then to each invasion corridor. The only way it could be completed on time is if they started early.
Then there will need to be two large space stations:- one to bulk the goods and put them of large transport Jump-ships and send them to the Deep Periphery where the second space station will bulk-break their logistics request.
On top of that Leviathans may be need to be created as well as Potemkin Class carriers.
On top of that – colonies will be needed to be established – warehouses, armaments / spare parts factories, sibko training venues, Jump-ship / warship / drop-ship repair docks; Medical Hospitals etc etc will all have to be established in the Deep Periphery prior to the invasion ….
So yes, they would need the full 50 years, just to establish the logistics requirements for the invading Clans ……
One way trip from Deep periphery to Clan Space:- 6 months
Factor in the time to re-equip a fleet with new stock per Drop-Ship and Jump-ship as well as re-crew, clean and service the engine etc you are long at lease one extra month (minimum)
Thus a total of 13 months (at least) round trip.
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With Peter stepping down, so WOB did not have 'control' over the Archon, Who would really be next?
Remember there is an entire post on this subject – Peter had a son, thus him, then as both Yvonne and their brother are out of the picture – it goes back through their Grandmothers Sister – Nondi (who is dead at the hands of Peter) – to her eldest child and her children, and their children,
Have a look at the Back of the Original House Steiner book as to the family lineage.
The idea they could Adam on the throne is a complete farcical joke.
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the leaders of tribe all over the world went to war, and even hunting with their warriors. They were gone for months at a time, and there wasn't an easy way to just call back if something was the problem.
Did these leaders have thousands of planets, trillions of people, massive government departments, an economy spanning those same thousands of worlds, special interest groups, military industrial complex as well as the military itself to deal with?
Simpler times you got simpler problems.
As for the President’s duties – go back and watch west wing or google it. Far more involved than just public relations.
Tax reform has always been one of the major problems of Government (and by extension its leader).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/07/20 08:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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I would think from the description of the path, there would be several stations along the route for each clan. The next segment of the path would probably be on such a station.
The idea that all supplies were brought in for all clans at the same time sounds off as well. Doing this would allow the other clans to see how many damage you were taking or if something underhanded was going on. The Sharks ships that went missing for instance. Also, since they had separate routes, they would have to keep each stocked anyways.
That would also explain why the Sharks were there to sell supplies to them.
The number of HPGs isn't really an issue, when you know the clans worker cast had far more people doing the job then was even hoped for. They would have enough to do it all quickly, and still not worry about having to wait long.
This is another reason why the exodus road name is wrong. They might have retraced a portion of it near the home worlds, but not the section going around the DC by the FS border.
Interestingly enough, they had the jump coordinates for each system going to the IS from the home worlds. A bit of a contradiction to no one knowing this.
The sheer numbers you are giving says there is NO way a single person could do much. So the government would basically run itself. Otherwise, you could not get anything done. West Wing was a fictional show. As with all fiction, the facts are left on the floor for a good story. Some are stretched, and complete lies are added. If it was that difficult, then the current president of the U.S. would not spend more time watching TV or texting then he does in the oval office.
So no. I don't think the government really needs a head so much as just someone saying do this or do that.
How many leaders in the past had their aides making decisions, so they can avoid blame when bad, and accept the praise when good?
That is pretty much what your chambers of congress are for. No one person to decide things.
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Requiem
04/08/20 02:57 AM
1.158.222.248
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The idea that all supplies were brought in for all clans at the same time sounds off as well.
Two theories:-
First, there is a centralized distribution system where all of the largest Jumpships are combined into one / two fleet(s) – thus utilizing efficiency to ensure the transport of Logistics from one station to the next; Thus Freeing up and keeping individual Clan’s (assigned to the invasion) smaller Merchantmen free who will be still be utilized within Clan Space and within the Periphery / Invasion Corridor.
Second, individual Clans look after their own needs – however this would require their complete fleet – thus their numbers within both Clan Space and within the Periphery / Invasion Corridor with a reduced number of ships they could have under the above scenario.
Personally I prefer the First as it would allow each individual Clan a greater flexibility whist within the OZ.
The sharks were there not to sell products to the invading Clans – their real mission was to find IS goods that would generate large profits back within Clan space.
Question how long would it take to complete a build for a small space station (that has storage capacity for food etc for a minimum of 9 months – and then resupplied) and a built in double HPG transmitter array for instantaneous receipt and transfer – for an almost real time conversation between the IS and the Hall of Khans.
There also may be a need to put a Jump recharger into each one to allow for a Jump-ships to be processed quicker.
In addition I would also consider a small aerospace force within each station for security purposes as well as a detachment of elemental marines.
The marines would also ensure the previous Jump coordinates would be wiped befor providing them with the new jump coordinates for the next station …..
So they are not that small – they will require time to build on a per capita basis.
No government runs itself – it is a massive organization.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/08/20 03:39 AM
66.74.60.165
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What is the numbers for their complete fleet?
The ships they brought in with the bid, could not have been all, and we know in the case of the Wolves, it wasn't. Just two warships out of all they had.
Not sure where you get having to store 9 months of food. I would think they had supply ships running a constant route, at least once a month. One large dropship with food from the homeworlds should have enough to deal with it.
Not sure if this was typical of the clans, but the one station fought on, had mechs and elementals on it. No fighters. Another reason why I don't think fighter pilots were numerous in the clans.
And there is a third option for how they did the stations. Besides the take it a part only enough to move it method, it is very possible, even probable, they built some during the invasion. if supplies were moving constantly to the front, even just food and alcohol, they would have the ability to send and receive messages from the home worlds. It wouldn't be recent news. As said before. The Dragons had a station that was a quick build, as it moved with them when they changed employers.
The elementals on the station also suggests they have reserves on or in those stations as well. So they could have had a pretty steady source of replacements as more were moved from the home worlds to replace the ones that got promoted to the front lines.
With numbers we don't know if they had dozens of stations around each world, or if they were only around the pentagon worlds.
Also, you can run the HPG in a smaller space object, like a habitat or factory. The recharge might have been an issue, but then you would need to run a reactor to keep power to the HPG and keeping the crew alive. They were not really that concerned at first about a counter strike.
And I agree. If you have the resources, you would have some fighters around each station. But that would be splitting your forces, which really doesn't count here. The clans bid what they did. Anything behind the lines is not part of it.
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