ghostrider
04/09/20 11:33 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still not understanding the fact that as long as they are not part of an invasion, garrison, saleha, reinforcements and such can be in the IS. It would be foolish to stand around without being in their armor, or mech, But as long as they are not actually invading others, they are fine to be there. The Jaguars broke their bid with this, but he Wolves didn't.
Defending yourself, and being part of a drop on a new world is totally different. You don't just become part of the bid, unless you are used to replace a dead warrior. To be honest, I would suspect some clans cheated with this by adding a 'new' cluster to the roster.
To be honest, the invasion was done by the few in power. The refusal fight ended that incarnation of it. It is a bit underhanded, but they can call for a new one that does NOT include those that failed. This has been done in the past for possession of properties. For them, it is SOP. For the IS, it is a breach of an implied contract. That is why the challenge wording is so important.
Had task force Serpent got into the clan home worlds and declared it a trail of refusal, all clans but the Wolves would be duty bound to get involved. They voted for it. The implied version or maybe just hitting the Jaguars alone, did not trigger this.
Images sent back to the clan home worlds. This is so important that it needs to be there as soon as the battleroms are pulled out of the unit? This is less important then sending back the failed that still live, and even salvage for the scientists to study. Where they are onupsmen in a fight, they aren't propaganda driven. The most narcisistic ones might need the glorification, but then that would lead to their replacement.
So when you have a command van or the leader of an invasion force, you need to send a message to the capital in order to talk with the person standing on the other side of the wall? That makes no sense. Trying to suggest weaknesses like this is a logical fault, but if you want it in the alt, go for it. It shows that the logic issues isn't just with the developers.
So you didn't get the clue about the other clans having supply issues, so when the Wolves started sooner and took more they were left in the dust? Also the same lack of supplies fed to revolts in taken worlds, as well as scaling back their goals? This is obvious to me. Might be pushing so hard to make it not work you overlook the simple. Maybe everything has to be so complicated that even Sun Tzu doesn't have a saying for it.
Forces pinned in place comes to mind as well as not even knowing about it until it was too late to do anything. What happens behind the lines wasn't current knowledge for the IS, especially with Comstar blocking the truth. Why didn't you say something about Germany starting both WW? It would have saved lives. Oh yeah. You didn't find out about it until after you were born. But that's no excuse according to the way this is phrased.
Your vision of the clans don't match a lot of others. They are the little boogiemice that sneak out and steal the bread at night, so you can't have toast in the morning. And yet the little menaces don't just walk out of their mouse holes so you can kill them. That needs to change right now. Rewrite it.
This is relatively easy to solve. Stop using canon as your base line. That mean all of the failures aren't there. Oh wait. Then it would all be your logic fails that show up... So until you do make the numbers for Defiance, or show us the real numbers you have for the alt, not making sense is screaming that they are wrong, yet nothing in numbers to back it up must really be a trip thru the looking glass.
Two wars? Normal life plus one is how it is. The clans have always been picking at each other for supplies, or just to make fools of the others. That didn't change in the invasion. Weither they wasted forces on doing it much is the key.
With clan challenges, you do not take a full cluster to attack a single star. So defense forces don't need to be RCTs. And those aren't part of the bid, so they don't have to limit them as much. They just did to avoid a lot of extra waste.
A thought came up. How many supplies DID they go thru in say a months battles? Do you really need Behemoth dropships on Monolith jumpships to move those supplies? Would a simple Buccaneer once a month handle it?
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Requiem
04/10/20 07:22 AM
1.158.222.248
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Still not understanding the fact that as long as they are not part of an invasion, garrison, saleha, reinforcements and such can be in the IS.
Sorry but no, I disagree – I cannot find it written anywhere this is a hard and fast rule – it is just an interpretation.
For my Alt universe I have decided that concrete laws need to be put in place:-
So as for my rule(s) – garrison forces are NOT allowed within the IS unless the Khan breaks the bid and reverts to the previous bid – thus a massive loss of face in the eyes of all other Clans (their holdings within Clan space are allowed to undergo Trials of Possession) – thus what they bid is ALL they will be allowed within the Deep Periphery or the IS at any one point in time – Replacements: Bid numbers can be retained whist on Crusade, of if you suffer losses they can be replaced from sibkos or from their Naval Holding yards. (eg. One warship destroyed – can request one replacement from Clan Space to maintain bid numbers)
I would even introduce the concept in that each Invader Clan can go all in – all of their remaining forces within Clan Space can be requested.
However if they fail and the predominant number of their forces fall within the Inner Sphere (say 90% loss depletion plus) – that Clan’s entire remaining Clan holdings etc will suffer a trial of absorption by those remaining clans within Clan Space.
Failure will not be tolerated!
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The Jaguars broke their bid with this, but he Wolves didn't.
And look at how all the clans viewed the Jaguars when they did this – it was NOT accepted as a normal course of action – thus it was NOT legal – they did bend the rules!
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You don't just become part of the bid, unless you are used to replace a dead warrior.
And how is an Inner Sphere attack force to know the difference? For example what happens when a Clan Invasion Fleet of Jump-ships and Drop-ships (that includes hanger on units) comes under attack from a Big Wing attack force?
This is a recipe for problems given your view of the rules.
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Images sent back to the clan home worlds. This is so important that it needs to be there as soon as the battleroms are pulled out of the unit?
Any profession Sports match – how quick are their images sent around the world? – Same principle! The glorification of the Clan is ever ongoing ….
The Khan must discuss with his people within Clan space as to Logistics – Weapons, Non-Warrior People, ships etc. – schedules – budget reports – changes to the amount of Sibko graduates that are required due to the ongoing Loss Depletion Report etc - Records keeping for the Clan History …. Etc. …. This requires real time requests, this is how important Logistics are!
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So you didn't get the clue about the other clans having supply issues, so when the Wolves started sooner and took more they were left in the dust?
Canon has it that they placed hidden supply bases in advance of the invasion fleet so that when they reach them they has supplies ready for that attack.
And yet they did not allow the IS forces the chance of finding them.
And the reverse can be said – what about all the Clans that were experiencing problems – were they included in the game as per the Wolves successes? ….. rigging the game again!
Sun Tzu
“The art of war teaches us to rely on the likelihood of the enemy’s not coming, but on our own readiness to receive him; not on the chance of his not attacking, but rather on the fact that we have made our position unassailable.”
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What happens behind the lines wasn't current knowledge for the IS
1. Black Boxes; and
2. ComStar personnel defying the First Circuit and sending out messages – that do get through and are released on CMM.
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Germany starting both WW?
First Germany did NOT start both WWs.
WW1 – Assassination of an Arch-Duke by a Serbian that touched off many allegiances and like dominos they all fell at one time; and WW2 – Japan kicked it off with invading China – Germany started the European war!
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Your vision of the clans don't match a lot of others.
Being in the majority does not mean it is right. The rules are open to interpretation – so until they are written in a way there can be no debate there will be debate.
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The clans have always been picking at each other for supplies, or just to make fools of the others. That didn't change in the invasion. Whether they wasted forces on doing it much is the key.
Then why wasn’t this shown within the front line forces – their rear was attacked they lost valuable supplies – the next ballet the majority of the force must switch to Lasers only with only a few Mechs (one in 10 for example) that have access to consumables?
If the Clans have these foibles then they must flow through to ALL of the Invasion forces!
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With clan challenges, you do not take a full cluster to attack a single star. So defense forces don't need to be RCTs. And those aren't part of the bid, so they don't have to limit them as much. They just did to avoid a lot of extra waste.
The Clans do NOT get the choice of saying to an IS RCT – I will only fight your Mech units, so put away all your other forces!
They fight everything on that world – vehicles, VTOL, Conventional Fighters/ bombers, Infantry, Commando, Artillery ….. everything!
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A thought came up. How many supplies DID they go thru in say a months battles?
Dependent upon ….
Clan Units fighting style …. use primary weapons laser or consumable driven;
The size of the Clan Force engaged in Battle;
The duration of the Battle (the longer the battle the more resources used);
The enemy they were fighting; and
The terrain they were fighting in.
So they could use next to none, or they could go through vast quantities.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/10/20 01:15 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is one story that suggests warriors from BOTH sides of a conflict have formed a circle of equals for a trial, and not get involved in it.
Think about how a military readies for a massed strike. They have a staging area they use. It is not just warriors that are going on the strike but defense forces and sometimes even pressing the remaining warriors into labor duty, So canon has it right. The alt can have them wait in the home worlds until they are needed.
And with the lack of garrisons for world, you would have bombardments being standard, as they will remove those that resist the holy crusade to reform the SL under their banner. It would also be logical that more clans would be involved, as they would know there is no way to do it with just 4 primary clans.
There is no logic to really support not having the others in the IS, except to nerf them.
There was nothing but pointing out the fact the Jaguars were using them before they should have. Other then that, I have not seen any sort of punishment for it. So if you know of one, point me in that direction. Even with one of them being the ilkhan for the invasion, there still should have been something done.
Again. Defense forces defend. They are not part of the bid, and for the most part, the IS didn't know of the bids made to invade the IS. So that step back for logic answers how they could tell those on a ship were bid or not. They couldn't. The big wings don't care, as it is their job to kill as many as they can. Bid or not, they are enemy forces.
Companies making money spread the shows as quickly as they can, otherwise another company will beat them. The khan has the last word in a clan. The SaKhan is the only one that can contradict him when it is necessary, outside of a trial. A lot of that footage would show the crusaders as being wrong about the IS not having courage or skill. That is something they do not want. It is why the IS clans started lying to the others. The losses and lack of advancement over the Wolves would have shamed them.
As for supplies, the requests for them are sent. There is no need to talk to the quartermaster to get it done. The only time it MIGHT be necessary is if the supplies can't be found. If it was an issue, the head supply person would be sent to the IS and someone else would take the position in the home worlds to get it done. If the khan doesn't kill them, they may well be part of the infantry being sent out to delay or harass the enemy.
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ghostrider
04/10/20 01:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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Let's see. If the game progressed as it was completely favored, the clans would have had better intel on the IS, meaning more forces would be sent to sibkos. All clans would have forces in the IS, as doing other wise would be a tactical mistake. Supplies would be stockpiled as well as more warships sent as well. Phelan would get captured or have been killed as he is but a single warrior in the IS. What does it matter?
Now the clans do their brutal attacks, and use the warships to make sure others did not get offworld. That would include overwhelming fighter support as well as dedicated assault dropships. They would have plenty of reserves waiting to fill in open positions.
And the major part of this. They would NOT limit the number of forces used in each battle. 3 to 1 is the standard, or so said. More worlds would fall that much quicker as they would not have a small amount of jumpships. This would be a blitz with real numbers. The IS vehicles would help, but in the end, the better intel would have those forces put into the numbers to attack.
So yeah. They favored the clans and screwed up the storyline. The LC, FRR, and probably DC w
should have fallen to their onslaught, and Comstar would not have initiated operation Scorpion to have them fight the clans. They would turn on them, once they realized the clans would win and not be as bled out as they hoped.
The Wolves would not have had the advantage to race ahead and help stop the clans from winning. Ulric would never become Ilkhan and agree to the truce fight.
So yeah. You hate the clans, and love the FS. Well done logically, there would be no IS, just new clan worlds that would be fought over by the militaristic clan society. Revolts would be put down like Turtle Bay. Complete genocide of the population in a city. More revolts, more executions. And this time, there would be no outside force to come to the rescue.
So who was favored in this?
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ghostrider
04/10/20 02:07 PM
66.74.60.165
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Do you believe all of the broadcasts done on podcasts, or ham radio? Conspiracy theories abound. How many of them are true? Even the large news companies are putting out lies that they KNOW are wrong, but implications destroys the truth.
The black boxes, if used, would be a good one to trust for the initial invasion. After that, you would have to suspect the transmissions. The clans would get ahold of some of them and figure it out.
And that also leads to how fast does it go? A week to go 30 lightyears? It is very possible the clans would get there before anything was done, even if the signal got there before the invaders did. Comstar would get a copy of it, and both Comstar and clan would be looking for a way to locate them as well as block them. If not, logic fails.
There are those that would debate the sun doesn't provide a light and heat source for the world. So someone would debate anything just for the hell of it. And a debate doesn't start off as most of the posts here have. They start off with a tone of this is/seems wrong. I think for theses reasons. Not it has to be my way or it isn't right. But then maybe I have been talking with people that aren't part of that style of conversation.
So patrolling the supply lines with warships doesn't show they had problems with trials and such? The fact they were even guarded should say something. I can understand those within say 3 jumps of the IS having them, but those in or near clanspace? With their views of the IS, it would seem wasteful to have any of them guarded.
The Clans do NOT get the choice of saying to an IS RCT – I will only fight your Mech units, so put away all your other forces!
That statement is kind of funny. For some clans, they did not issue the challenge. If their intel was close to being right, they would already know what was on world. Those that did challenge with the Batchall, they might have thought it would be mech on mech, as vehicles were frowned upon in the home worlds. After the first few battles, where the IS would 'violate' the challenge by bringing in the vehicles, then they would have a higher bid.
The challenge can state the exact nature of the assault. The challenger then was to state what forces they would use to fight with. Most of the planetary governments that responded were saying something like "With everything I have available" or something like that. The clans could request to keep it to mechs to avoid unnecessary damage, and initially didn't think warriors would use cities as cover. So yes. They did get the choice to ask.
The question of what is used is about how many jumpships and dropships each clan would need for supples as well as size. A well prepared commander has more then enough supplies to last a few months of heavy combat. The clans don't deal with months, so they would be unprepared for a campaign lasting even a month. So the amount of ships needed would increase as the battle went on.
The problem with supplies was shown in the game, but more implied, other then the print saying they had issues. Think logically. With the egos of the Jaguars and Falcons, do you really think they wouldn't have gone on a spree to catch up, pace or excel past the wolves? Yet couldn't. Forces and supplies made that impossible. It is a logic that comes about, but one that needs to be thought on. Twycross would be a good example of that. The front line troops should have been gone, but weren't.
Why? They had issues with things and didn't get moved on time. I know it was to set up the story to be exciting and dangerous, but in the complete logical look, they should not have been there. They should have been invading another world.
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Requiem
04/10/20 03:31 PM
1.158.222.248
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There is one story that suggests warriors from BOTH sides of a conflict have formed a circle of equals for a trial, and not get involved in it.
Does this story suggest it is the size and complexity of the Invasion of the Inner Sphere?
The only comparison in Clan History to that of the Invasion of the Inner Sphere is that of Annihilation of Clan Wolverine.
Anything else is a very poor substitute to make a comparison.
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So canon has it right. The alt can have them wait in the home worlds until they are needed.
As long as they are part of the bid, otherwise they are not going anywhere.
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And with the lack of garrisons for world, you would have bombardments being standard, as they will remove those that resist the holy crusade to reform the SL under their banner.
More bombardments equates to first succession war tactics (Nuclear ordinance) not only on their ships but on their units as well ….. so the holy crusade becomes the dark Jihad …. congrats.
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It would also be logical that more clans would be involved, as they would know there is no way to do it with just 4 primary clans.
How? when the canon story has the clans only intelligence being from 3019-20 – 30 years out of date – as well as the blinkered nature of their society, how many Khans ever admit they were wrong?
The only way they could get around their original bid numbers was to cheat!
Plus they still have two alternate clans to bring their numbers up to six.
And what they will find is that even with six they still do not have the numbers – they do not have the support mechanism for extended campaigns and they definitely do not have the infantry (elementals) – and they absolutely do not have the ability to garrison any significant world – they just do not have the ability to garrison any world where that single worlds population is 20 times that of their entire clans population.
The idea that you can force any inner sphere world into a caste system where they have to give up their last name and give up their children (fostering) is the most ridiculous and ludicrous idea I have ever thought that would be considered plausible canon.
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There was nothing but pointing out the fact the Jaguars were using them before they should have.
No the point is they should not have had them at all is the point unless they form part of either the original bid, or they are part of the previous bid – where the Clan must use the previous bid because the original was in error – and as a consequence suffer the consequences of breaking their initial bid numbers.
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Other then that, I have not seen any sort of punishment for it.
Why would anyone put in the canon story anything that says – oh we stuffed up with pushing the release too fast and made a massive mistake when it came it to the bid numbers (as there was no beta testing) as well as the complement(s) of forces involved so here are the revised final bid numbers for every Clan and oh by the way we are going to increase the number of clans involved from 6 to 8 or even 10 because when you factor in the fact that the IS has vehicles, mass infantry with anti elemental weapons (SRMs + Inferno rounds at the minimum) and conventional fighters so the idea that so few Clans can win in a war of attrition becomes a ridiculous!
So yes there will never be a punishment when simple mathematics is used to prove the final bids used were ridiculously in error. –By the fifth wave every clan should have almost run out of forces on the front line to continue the advance and at the same time put even the most minimum of forces as garrison units on their conquered worlds.
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Even with one of them being the ilkhan for the invasion, there still should have been something done.
From a mathematical standpoint – all clans would have had to recognize their hubris and pride as well a complete lack of military information caused them to err . the only way forward is either more clans involved or they all go all in and they realize their way of battle is completely in error and they must adopt an inner sphere way of fighting from a specific point onward – thus ditching the idea of bidding for anything.
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Again. Defense forces defend. They are not part of the bid, and for the most part, the IS didn't know of the bids made to invade the IS.
First, no I completely disagree.
Second, the idea PGCs would assist their garrisons is beyond silly – the Falcons only had two IS Regiments worth of forces – that number is going no where – plus the idea that they know how to stop partisan attacks when they have never even been allowed in combat before because they are PGCs shows how silly the game is getting. They were only used for the worst of jobs and to clean up after a Trial of …….. So they had no idea and they never had any real numbers to get the job done.
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So that step back for logic answers how they could tell those on a ship were bid or not. They couldn't. The big wings don't care, as it is their job to kill as many as they can. Bid or not, they are enemy forces.
The point is how are the Clans going to take to the idea the IS attacked units that were not part of the bid?
The way you have it is that the Clans put them in Harm’s way, but when attacked, will again loose all reason and do who knows what in retaliation for what is clearly their fault.
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Companies making money spread the shows as quickly as they can, otherwise another company will beat them.
Speed leads to errors and dissatisfied customers – reduced repeat purchases – you have one shot at getting a decent product out there, time must be taken to get it right from the get go!
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The khan has the last word in a clan.
They are a Totalitarian society so that is a given. (something their SLDF forbears would fight against with all their might).
And no the Sa-Khan cannot contradict the Khan – they can only initiate a trial of position to kick them out!
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A lot of that footage would show the crusaders as being wrong about the IS not having courage or skill. That is something they do not want. It is why the IS clans started lying to the others. The losses and lack of advancement over the Wolves would have shamed them.
There is no shame in fighting a competent enemy – quite the reverse defeating a competent enemy just proves your worth as a true warrior.
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As for supplies, the requests for them are sent. There is no need to talk to the quartermaster to get it done.
Really? – Logistics is more than sending in a form stating I want this much of that and I want them by this date.
As for the idea “they may well be part of the infantry being sent out to delay or harass the enemy.’, only if they were a warrior to begin with.
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If the game progressed as it was completely favored, the clans would have had better intel on the IS, meaning more forces would be sent to sibkos.
First Succession War Jihad – nuclear MAD
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The clans would get ahold of some of them and figure it out.
Encrypted messages?
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Comstar and clan would be looking for a way to locate them as well as block them. If not, logic fails
Quisling once again?
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Those that did challenge with the Batchall, they might have thought it would be mech on mech, as vehicles were frowned upon in the home worlds. After the first few battles, where the IS would 'violate' the challenge by bringing in the vehicles, then they would have a higher bid.
Really? Did they learn nothing form the Dragoon missive of 3019-20 as to the fighting style of the IS forces.
Plus even if the IS commander did reply to the Batchall (which I doubt) they would say either nuts! Or everything I have – and everything is everything – so the Clans cannot cry fow when the IS did use everything against them.
If the Clans did ask for Mech on Mech why would any IS commander give them that advantage?
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The problem with supplies was shown in the game, but more implied,
Favoritism once again – keeping it implies and not actual shows there are issues.
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Twycross
Really? Even Clan units need down time or additional garrison units
They were there and in all reality they should have been squashed far worse than that given by canon – where were the Full RCT vehicles, infantry etc within the story?
Once again a story that lacks all credibility give the full TO&E of all units involved …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/10/20 07:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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The alt can do whatever. Canon has it that the clans can have reserves in the IS. The may not be that many, but they can take those from aboard ships or where ever they have the staging area for the next wave. Not sure why the huge logic hole of not having reserves with you is coming up. The Sharks have military units in the IS, and were not part of the bid. They were part of one of the initial invasions. So that should answer your complaint.
First off, the clans are not stupid enough to bombard a city with their troops in it. They would pull back and be spotters to make sure they hit where they need to. The IS population is lower then the Bandit caste is in the eyes of the trueborns. They tolerate the IS people as they have little choice.
I guess you didn't read all of it before saying they didn't have intel. Done the way an invasion would be done, they would have intel on the IS and have the larger force hit.
So far all of the argument is about canon, not the alt. So don't try to bring up the alt while doing so.
Now to answer your caste issue. The CC has it, as well as the DC. Both require their people to obey without question. The CC has it so you are not even a citizen unless you do a great service to the state. So you are a civilian, with less freedom then a simple civilian.
So you are saying the logically, and according to your trying to avoid the harm coming to the FC, that the great military minds of the clans would leave all of their forces they will garrison worlds on, at least 4 months out on the home worlds? And you call the canon full of holes? The clans KNEW they did not have the numbers to take out the entire IS. So they limited the invasion to punch thru to Terra. Done the way you suggest and do it right, they would not send 4 clans, but all would send forces. Then the clans would be part of the IS eternal struggle for supremacy. They would leave the batchalls and home and just destroy anything military.
And before you start with the whole world uprising, understand that police officers tend to be 1 to even thousand or so people in the city. Laws change when a new nation takes over.
They broke with clan traditions. And nothing happened. That is because the Falcons were doing close to the same thing. NO batchalls issues as customary to the clans. This is showing the clans were falling out with their own traditions. The used of garrison units to free up front line units, was violating the agreement of not using them. THEY ARE NOT PART OF A BID TO INVADE. They are there to hold what is taken. If they really wanted to, they could stock up a full galaxy on each world as a garrison. And it will all be legal according to their traditions.
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ghostrider
04/10/20 07:42 PM
66.74.60.165
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Are you really asking that it was a screw up that the developers put in the conditions that the clans did not have the numbers to take the entire IS? And it was poor beta testing? Superior weapons and warships, and no way to really stop them? The numbers was the way to halt their advance, as each world they took required more and more forces to pacify, and allow the greater numbers to hit them? Where is this a poor idea? Execution of this could have been better, but this is standard story plots for almost all invasion forces against human in almost all sci fi. Starship Troopers is about the only one that had masses of enemy swarming the higher tech, but lesser number humans.
Numbers. Read the real invasion post again and see what would happen to the IS. No chance to hold the clans back before they consumed most of the LC and DC. Maybe even parts of the FS and FWL. The first succession war would have paled compared to the death toll the clans would have inflicted as populations tried to rise up against them. Unlike the DCMS, they would not tire of removing the IS populations. As they would control almost all of the coms, you would not know the worlds where they came in at, was now being wiped out.
How does numbers go with the Jaguars should have been punished for using the garrisons before the time set? This is all clan justice, nothing else.
Why not actually learn about the clans before saying anything? You would know the PGCs were made of failed warriors, such as those that did not have sponsorship to blood names, those that were hurt and could not serve in the front lines, as well as those that were poor soldiers. A lot, if not most, had combat experience.
As for combatting the partisan strikes your own response comes to mind, when I said something about the clans should have no experience with spying. Something about Goliath Scorpion had information there.
And what do you know, the Dark Caste would be using those tactics to gain mechs and parts. Hmmm. Yeah. They don't have ANY experience with this.
How would a violence based warrior caste take to non bid units being hit? Really? They would do the same thing they always do. Laugh at those that can't hold them off, and kill those who dare struck as their clan. Or do you want a Sun Tzu response to this? Maybe Patton had some as well.
The only thing that is in question is if they would wait until they were done with their defensive forces, or hit them while engaged with them. Being on the same ship, it wouldn't matter. THEIR butts are in the fire.
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ghostrider
04/10/20 08:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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Speed leads to errors and dissatisfied customers – reduced repeat purchases – you have one shot at getting a decent product out there, time must be taken to get it right from the get go!
By this sentence no sports could be shown live. You were screaming they needed to get the vids to the home worlds, so a delay of a few weeks to have jumpships moving to cover coms gap was too much, now you are saying they need to wait to get those vids?
Which one is it?
The SaKhan is the only one that can contradict him when it is necessary, outside of a trial. The fact that there is conflicts of visions for the future of the clan happens all the time. Contradict, and countermand are not the same thing. The order stands even though they don't agree.
Video of the enemy not being the weak foolish babies playing warrior would destroy the crusaders views, as well as most trueborns views. The IS was not the easy barbarians promised. Showing skill against them would still happen, but they would edit it, so it looked like one star took on the whole world full of inferior mechs. They had already started down this path. It would only excellarate it from their.
The clan commanders didn't care HOW they got the supplies to them, just that they got them. Not sure why you responded with only if they were warriors to begin with, when it was stated that they might be infantry being tasked to deal with moving supplies.
Comstar would know if information from behind the lines were being broadcast in the nations. They were doing coms on both sides. So they could figure out pretty much where the footage was shot, and if they have anything like we do today, cameras watching almost every were. They would find those that shot to footage.
Guess you didn't read all of the books and side notes in the rules as well. They did learn from the last message and decided the IS nations would not honor agreements, so tossed the batchall out. And there were more then a few that did agree to mech on mech. Some even honored it by doing so. Most did it to save lives.
Maybe the fact that it DID say they were being hindered and could not even attempt to keep up with the wolves. Maybe they should have shown the schedule for the invasion. Oh wait. They did. Only the wolves met those quotas and surpassed them. It was all in print that the other clans had issues. Must not be reading the books that cover this. Which is about any that deal with the war at that time.
Ok. The FC deployed in a huge tornado. They have sealed cockpits and did not run ICE. They can step over things like boulders and not get stuck in ravine that require a bridge to get across in a vehicle. And you can't think of why they only had the mechs?
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Requiem
04/10/20 09:33 PM
1.158.222.248
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Canon has it that the clans can have reserves in the IS.
And here we go again ….cheating the system to get around the issue that the initial bid was a complete a farce.
There is only interpretation.
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The Sharks have military units in the IS
Where? A Trinary of observers led by a Khan and the sakhan who were only allowed to accompany another Clan – this is a far cry from additional reserve units.
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the clans are not stupid enough to bombard a city with their troops in it.
But they are stupid enough to bomb a city full of civilians.
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The IS population is lower then the Bandit caste is in the eyes of the trueborns. They tolerate the IS people as they have little choice.
and this makes what they do alright? ….. this is Germany in Russia all over again, or how about Amaris’ on Terra …..
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they would have intel on the IS and have the larger force hit.
And yet Canon has the only bit of information if from the Dragoons 3019-20 run …… and then from Comstar’s Outbound Light …. (No other info.)
The CC – North Korea civilians.
The DC – were no way near as bad as the Clans civilians – they are an extension of the samurai of old way of light brought to life in far future.
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The clans KNEW they did not have the numbers to take out the entire IS. So they limited the invasion to punch thru to Terra.
And here I thought they wanted to determine who was the il-Clan ….. by invading the IS with a limited amount of forces and seeing who could make it to terra – and take it
The entire premise has a lot to be desired considering the limited forces they entered into the Inner Sphere with.
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Laws change when a new nation takes over.
True – but who would follow the Clans idea of what is legal – what about the idea of morality?
The idea that the Clans could force a police department of an entire world to come to their way of thinking is naïve.
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They broke with clan traditions. And nothing happened.
TPTB? Rather than following the rules of the society they created ….. how many times were the Clans give a pass when they should have been attacked …. Wolf Vs Falcon War, wolf reaping warriors from the jaguars, falcons and wolves reaping warriors from the home clans rather than engaging in a Trial of absorption at the minimum …. How many battles within the IS read like a one sided soap opera rather than taking into consideration the IS units total TO&E …. Where was the backup moving IS forces to gang up on clan forces …. Where was the anti elemental rifle … where was the IS pocket warships with dropships …..
The entire canon Clan invasion is a joke.
THEY ARE NOT PART OF A BID TO INVADE. – therefore they are not allowed within the IS ….. where is the concrete rule (not a subjective assumption) that they are allowed to do this?
TPTB created the rules for their Clans – and when they suddenly became inconvenient they ditched them …. How many times have this occurred within the canon history?
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No chance to hold the clans back before they consumed most of the LC and DC.
And how about going back and reading the battles ….. they are a joke of what should have happened.
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You would know the PGCs were made of failed warriors
Wrong ….. they are freeborn who are given the honour of cleaning up after the True borns have finished fighting.
Dark caste - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dark_Caste
They a minor nuisance to the Clans – is a far cry from being a partisan. If the clans used whole sale slaughter of civilians to get at the partisans – then they truly are Amaris’ Greenburg Gestapo.
And we are right back at the Jihad once again as the IS use nukes to kill of the Clans in response to their perfidy.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
04/10/20 09:50 PM
71.47.193.139
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TPTB? Rather than following the rules of the society they created …
We followed the rules of the societies we created. They were a bit less rigid than you're trying to portray.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
04/11/20 01:12 AM
1.158.222.248
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Can I then please ask,
How flexible are the rules before you are considered to have broken them?
We have the rules and we have the history – how far is too far?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/11/20 04:18 AM
66.74.60.165
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Reserves have always been a part of the clans way of doing things. That is part of what the bid is about. They can even sit and watch the battle, as long as they don't get involved. The inclusion of the forces from the last bid can enter, but only when called. And any military that keeps their reserves hundreds of light years away, which is over half a year according to you, would be completely stupid logic fail.
So the clans that bid to enter the IS can't have extra units, but a clan that wasn't even part of the fighting invasion can? Even a single unit would be violating the rules. But I don't think like that, as all cargo needs some guards.
Other then trying to say canon should not allow the clans to hurt the FC, there is really no point to trying to make it sound like the clans should have rolled over and died at Katherine's command.
Stupid to bombard a city full of civilians? We already have it down some of them would do it in a heart beat and do it over and over again. I am sure some would have done it to their own population, much less the barbarians that are too stupid to see the greatest warriors in history, to enlighten the pops uneducated butts out of the mud.
The abuse the clans do is not alright by moral standards. But it wasn't just the clans that performed it. Comstar was the ones running the camps. And the initial invasion, before the talked to comstar, they didn't have that much info. With comstars help, they had more then enough to blitz thru as far as they did.
As said before, but it seems to be ignored, ALL the clans would come in, as not a single clansman would agree to stay behind and allow another the title of ilkhan for life as well as the clans getting the Ilclan title. So limiting forces would not have happened. They ALL WOULD HAVE SENT FORCES.
Those that can't fight back would bend down to avoid more pain, would follow the laws. And it is interesting that you think the entire police force would follow such commands. They would be replaced with those that will, or bring in even more clanners which would be even more brutal. But some how this concept alludes you.
Understanding the fact that only the front line bid would be available for assaulting worlds. Those that garrison it, aren't. They are always their to 'clean' up after the front lines. This means the dirty work of keeping the populace from getting riled up as well as guarding the gains. Why this isn't sinking in, is suggesting you don't understand the way the clans work at all.
So it is ok for Katherine to kill her own family in the pursuit of power, which is highly illegal and morally corrupt, but a warrior society that is following traditions you don't know or understand isn't ok? All or nothing. This is really going into the black hole of no logic.
The actions from some are bad. Not all are. And Comstar, people born in the IS, were just as bad. So comstar should have been destroyed completely with those involved in the camps executed for crimes against humanity. That would also include Katherine and others that assisted her with the assassination of her mother. Saying Katherine could make everyone think the evidence if false, yet Comstar couldn't really says logic isn't involved here. Just desires.
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Requiem
04/11/20 06:49 AM
1.158.222.248
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Reserves have always been a part of the clans way of doing things.
Historically the Clans have never had reserve units in the traditional sense of the word as the Inner Sphere would consider a reserve unit.
For the inner sphere it means if the battle becomes a protracted quagmire additional forces are dispatched in the hope it will tip the battle in your forces favor – and this can occur many times with some critical battles.
For the clans this goes against the rules except if it relates to the previous bid only. Otherwise a whole new bid would be required.
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And any military that keeps their reserves hundreds of light years away, which is over half a year according to you, would be completely stupid logic fail.
Please re-think this through.
Example only:
Your final bid was “X” Galaxies to invade the Inner Sphere, however your previous bid before that was “X + Y” Galaxies – As Khan you decide to take with you to the Inner Sphere the entire “X + Y” Galaxies – “X” to fight and “Y” as your ‘observer / reserve / PGCs’ Units. Correct?
What this also means is that your Home Guard units used to Garrison your Clan Space Holdings is now “Home Guard – Y” Correct? So now you have made it easier for any belligerent Clan (who are at full strength and have their full complement of front line fighters) to issue trials of possessions upon some of your key infrastructure because you have not only taken your key Front line fighters to the inner Sphere but you have also taken a percentage of your second tier fighters as well – thus opening you Holdings to a hostile take-over all because you wanted warriors with you who couldn’t fight and could only sit there and do nothing.
What a wonderful strategy.
You have to keep a reasonable amount of your units within Clan space to keep the other non-invasion Clans at arms length.
The amount you take into the Inner Sphere cannot weaken your Home Guard to the point that you lose everything within Clan Space because you wanted Glory within the Inner Sphere. Remember the Clans are Mongols – you show weakness and you will invite an invasion by a rival Clan.
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all cargo needs some guards.
This is the responsibility of the Navy! – They can also swap Guards at a point within the Periphery before they enter into the Inner Sphere.
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……there is really no point to trying to make it sound like the clans should have rolled over and died at Katherine's command.
Where did I say this?
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Stupid to bombard a city full of civilians? We already have it down some of them would do it in a heart beat and do it over and over again.
Back to Jihad, 1st Succession War, Nuclear MAD tactics once more!
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I am sure some would have done it to their own population,
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Widowmaker
“In the summer of 2834, the Widowmakers massacred their own merchants during a caste dispute. Though the Widowmakers blamed the Wolves for stirring up the merchants, the Grand Council agreed with Khan Jerome Winson of Clan Wolf to question their right to rule and gave the Wolves the right to absorb them.”
Yes that’s a great strategy!
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Comstar was the ones running the camps.
In addition to the charge of Treason (With ComStars help, they had more then enough to blitz thru as far as they did.) add all charges as per the Nuremberg Trials.
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So limiting forces would not have happened. They ALL WOULD HAVE SENT FORCES.
So, the rules as laid down by Nicholas no longer exist – so why attack Clan Wolverine if they can just set aside their own rules so quickly?
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They would be replaced with those that will, or bring in even more clanners which would be even more brutal.
How does that work when one Inner Sphere world has a population of twenty times that of their entire Clan’s population?
The Clans do not have the numbers! Even when Clan Ghost Bear transported their entire population into the Inner Sphere they are just one city when compared to population within the Inner Sphere.
Metropolitan population of Tokyo – 38.14 million (2016) – Clan Ghost Bear just under 25 million.
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This means the dirty work of keeping the populace from getting riled up as well as guarding the gains.
Jade Falcon circa 3050 has just a little over 200 PGC Mechs – their ability to Garrison? – especially when they have had no training with regards to Partisan war – you need boots on the ground – you need police investigators – you need a high electronics surveillance team – where are these forces?
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So it is ok for Katherine to kill her own family in the pursuit of power
This is supposed to be a modern medieval society – Fratricide is supposed to be SOP
Just look at the Clans how many warriors kill their fellow warriors within a circle of equals at any point in time?
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That would also include Katherine.
Where is the proof? Innocent until PROVEN guilty. There is also the point she is Archon.
And as per any logical thought she NEVER had to kill her mother to take the throne - only Victor had to die – this was just a bit of sensationalism writing that made no sense whatsoever.
As stated before the proof of ComStar’s guilt is readily available if you are able to get commando / spy forces into the Clans rear and then get them off again or they send an encrypted message via Black Box.
As for Katherine – good luck with that – she would have had anyone with knowledge of it killed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/11/20 02:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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Reserves can be but a single unit. But I can see why this isn't really thought of as being a reserve. You bid 2 clusters to take a world, while each battle would not require that many. They may well have only a trinary or two in a battle with others just sitting around as they did bid for the right to hit different units. This comes from the 13th wolf guard that took badges instead of bidding for assaults.
So no one in the clans is smart enough when making their bids, didn't think about having units guarding their home territories? It is known thru the Shark incidence that they were going to be attacked by one of the clans to punish them for their actions. The sharks found out about it and took out the attackers.
Now where is the list of the ENTIRE clan roster? Not just what went to invade.
The Navy needs to supply guards for cargo. And those very guards can be moved to combat in the front line with but a single order. They are warriors. Maybe even elementals in armor. Hmmm. Guess this shouldn't be considered warriors..
And funny that you suggest not weakening your assault forces, yet you want to have some change out the navy ones guarding the cargo coming in...
The entire set up for the alt has the tone that the clans should heed Katherine's orders. Nerf the clans and keep them from actually attacking or staying in the IS, and Katherine's rise to power has to happen. Both are full of holes far larger then canon. Changing anything negates the rest. But some how, this isn't being seen. It may just be me that has seen this.
This is a war game. I said using nukes to hit the clans with, even just the warships would start off this process. But other then trying to keep the game from de-evolving, why wouldn't a war to the death start heading that way? Both sides have used them in the past, so why not now? Not the way I want the game to go, which is why the Jihad is so much crap to me. This would be more preferable to the torture going on as it's results are much quicker. Ulric's walk thru a battlefield that had a MechWarrior start beating a citizen of that city. Do you think this was the harshest any of them did? This is no worse then the houses after they take a world either with a raid or full assault.
There were other clans that did similar things, like the Falcons and Jaguars. And yet they were not put up for absorbsion or annihilation. Hmmm.
The rules Nicholas laid down was to keep losses as low as possible. With your complaint the whole thing wasn't done logically, and with keeping losses in mind, the main way to do the invasion would be to send in more troops. Keep your forces from being diminished, while avoiding the sort of damage a small unit will inflict with a very drawn out battle. Also, you said the clans already moved away from Nicoholas's teachings with the crusader concepts. They knew that with the forces they were going to send, they could not take the IS. Done logically, they would have more intel as said in previous posts and would have sent a lot more troops, as they would know the houses would not care if Terra falls. It is not the center of the IS for each house. And as Ulric said about the clans taking Terra. There would be a constant war as the clans pushed outwards.
You suggested that the invading clans should be recalled as they failed to take the prize. I said other clans would not even allow them to be left out from becoming the ruler of all the clans, and would push to be included when the fight bogged down. New bids and fights would slow down the invasion even more, give the IS time to prepare or do the unthinkable. Hit the clans at home. Best take them out now, then risk it. And this is not saying to send every possible force to the IS. It is say ALL the clans would participate.
How does any dictatorship work? The populace ALWAYS outnumber the soldiers. The Roman empire would be a good example as well as the Mongol hordes. They faced even greater challenges with distance and time to get things there.
The inclusion of Comstar into the mix changes the facts of controlling worlds. They had more resources as well as major control of the news and such, that they could use that to remove a lot of threats. As the IS has had worlds change in the past, being told the rulers ceded the world to the enemy. That stops a lot of the hopes that they will be rescued any time soon. So they bunker down and try to keep out of sight until such time as their previous rulers decide to come back. For some, the change is better.
Fratricide is NOT supposed to be SOP. It is illegal and immoral. The issue came about that no one could prosecute those doing so, unless it was a minor house that pissed of the dukes and higher. That does not make it any more right then nuking a city or wiping out the entire family line.
Proof? They had proof she killed her mother. And Melissa would have had to die as well, since she would have taken the entire FC, and found out who had him killed. Oh wait. A mother would look to see what happened to her first born that was supposed to take the job she now had, but asked for her to stay on while he learned how to be the best ruler he could be?
This fact alone was why she had to move, and her mother was the target that needed to be gone. Her popularity would make untouchable, as she was more powerful then Katherine was. Victor didn't use the information they got, to avoid the civil war that happened anyways, since Katherine wanted a dictatorship, not a monarchy. Complete control, not the head of a feudal system.
And Katherine didn't kill all knowledge of it when she had her mother killed, What would have changed?
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Requiem
04/11/20 07:33 PM
1.158.222.248
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If a clan bids a certain amount – that is what is used in the battle
The difference between this final amount and the second to last bid can be assigned to the battle – however at the loss of the commander and unit’s honor.
This additional amount is NOT a reserve force in the traditional definition.
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Now where is the list of the ENTIRE clan roster? Not just what went to invade.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Touman
“A touman is the sum total of a Clans martial assets”
So HERE is the entire Clan Roster.
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Navy
You bid a certain amount in the Inner Sphere that is all that is allowed in the Inner Sphere at any one point in time – thus a change is required before the merchantmen enter into the Inner Sphere.
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The entire set up for the alt has the tone that the clans should heed Katherine's orders.
Really?
Katherines rise to power will bring sanity back to the Fed-Com Military that could never have been achieved under Victor (as he was always with the his unit rather than actively being in the CIC where he should have been.)
Catherine WOULD have attacked both the Falcons and Wolves at the end of their civil war – thus actively destroying both of there is forces in combat (turning those that were captured into her bondsmen). As for those that escaped – their fate – trial of absorption by another more worthy clan (they were weak and the weak are put down!) – this is after all the Clan’s way of life.
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This is a war game.
Correct ….. not having nukes is the way the game should go ….. but having an enemy abuse the citizens it captures IS the way it should go?
This is just as equally as disturbing, if not more, I do not want nukes and I do not want the SS / Gestapo in the game I find many of the underling concepts as to the Clans abhorrent – they are not former SLDF they are Amaris.
If the game wanted a former SLDF unit they should have created a society accordingly.
Not warrior based Caste based single Totalitarian Government – Democratic Council were each Caste within the Clan has an equal say and the Khan can be from any Caste not just Warror.
The idea of Fostering gets Nerfed.
Warriors can come from any birth True or Free.
The idea of Sibkos gets Nerfed.
True born is similar to that as IVF – used by families to have children.
The idea of losing your last name and Blood names is Nerfed.
A true egalitarian and free democratic society – where the artist has the same value as the Warriror.
Why are they invading? They are horrified with what they see is happening within the Inner Sphere – their invasion is not about conquest it is about liberation – when they arrive they bring freedom form the constraints of money, they bring heathcare, they bring agriculture and art to free the people from the depraved societies that the Inner Sphere has devolved into.
This is the true inheritors of the SLDF not the rubbish the Clans have become.
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There were other clans that did similar things, like the Falcons and Jaguars.
And they too should have been put up for absorption and annihilation!
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The rules Nicholas laid down was to keep losses as low as possible.
And how does that work out when the Inner Sphere’s idea of war is maximize the losses as high as possible? Especially when they have a sibko system? They should have run out of warriors within a very quick period of time as every means known to man would have been sed against the Clans Warriors both within and without the cockpit.
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Also, you said the clans already moved away from Nicoholas's teachings with the crusader concepts.
Not what I am intimating!
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You suggested that the invading clans should be recalled as they failed to take the prize.
If they failed they are kicked out or absorbed … this is the Mongol Way.
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and would push to be included when the fight bogged down.
Against the clan’s own rules.
An entirely new bid would have to be called for – with many battles to determine whom the next set of Clans could include.
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New bids and fights would slow down the invasion even more, give the IS time to prepare or do the unthinkable.
Then what is the year of peace?
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It is say ALL the clans would participate.
No, the clans society is built upon the premise of superiority – winners and losers – the winners move forward and losers can sit in the corner. The ide that all can participate goes against Nicholas’ schoolyard rules of superiority.
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How does any dictatorship work?
Apple meet Orange ….Orange meet Apple
Comparing the Roman empire’s military and government does not apply – the two societies cannot be placed side by side and be expected to be the same. They are men and armies of their time, saying you can transplant the morality of the past into the future just does not work.
Comparisons can be made to provide a guide, but to consider that everything will be the same?
The Roman army was better led, more highly trained, had an understanding of engineering that no other military could even hope to come close to understanding and included people from all over the empire – and was about 10 times as large as any single countries military.
This is not the Clans.
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The inclusion of Comstar into the mix changes the facts of controlling worlds.
For a time this could be considered a possibility, however if it comes out that they did do this …. Fall of the ComStar Empire!
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Fratricide is NOT supposed to be SOP. It is illegal and immoral.
How many times has it been written into the Game? And within every House and even within ComStar ….. Regicide is the central tenant of the game (Amaris Vs. Kerensky)
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Proof? They had proof she killed her mother.
Where? ….. the evidence they did get would have NEVER held up in a court of law it is circumstantial at best.
If it was taken to court Katherines Lawyers would have turned it into a joke!
Katherine did not have kill her mother only Victor – with the death of Victor how long would she have remained as Ruler in her Grief? Her mother would have gone into isolation at this news – besides Katherine could have wheeled her out whenever she wanted to get something done.
Sorry no, Victor is the only one who had to die for Katherine to get the top job – it is just a matter of time.
Katherine did not want a Dictatorship she didn’t need such a system – being Archon gave her all the power to rule.
What happened to all the people who knew? In the end there was only one remaining – and what happened to him?
Then they had to use the illusion he was alive with the bloody handed princess series of art …..
So yes everything changed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/12/20 08:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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Gonna retry this again. Timed out the last time.
The full roster would include the combat dropships that are used by their forces. So it isn't complete.
The clans can have as many warriors as they can ship in the IS. Only those bid can invade worlds. Not sure why this needs to be repeated. You want the alt to do that, then fine. Make the largest logic flaw in the universe. It would counter your favorite quoting subject Sun Tzu's advice. In canon, they were there to replace warriors or just act as guards. And more then a few times, both in the IS and at the clans home worlds, the khan/sakhan or leader of a military group, included themselves in a fight, that was bid by someone other then their personal unit. So it isn't like it wasn't already being done before they even decided to invade.
Katherine would bring sanity back to the FC?
She would lose in both strikes as well as have the other houses actively fighting the FC before the end of the truce. Her ego would demand it, and even Nondi would be fired or have an accident if she ever disagreed with Katherine.
And as you lover reality, the idea of PTSD doesn't happen to the soldiers of the FC. Having them on 24 hour guard duty as suggested previously, as well as constantly on dropships to head toward another battle, if they survived the first ones, doesn't have any consequences in your alt. Katherine has a power complex and would never share it with anyone. She would do purges every so often, maybe every month when a unit didn't perform as she wanted them to. They would have to be traitors in not being able to take down a clan cluster with a single lance. And it would come to that.
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ghostrider
04/12/20 08:31 PM
66.74.60.165
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No nukes, but assassinations, terrorist attacks, poison and such are to be used? Explain how this is any different, except the nukes kill faster and more quicker.
I don't like the use of nukes myself, and should have been left out. But the need to have the 'hated' enemy to fight against needs a villain to absolutely hate. It isn't like the IS hasn't done that. Players love a certain house, so those opposed to it are that evil. There would be no real threat from WOB if they didn't use the nukes, so that whole thing would have been a wash. But poisoning an entire city to strike back at an enemy and those that are working with them?
The clans were almost all military, and would never be able to run as a democracy. The SL wasn't even one. So the basis of it was not even there to start with. Then comes the neutering of the soldiers. Even military discipline would not hold against those that were forced into the civilian jobs.
And as pointed out, the clans didn't follow Nicholas's teaching. They moved away from it after he died.
As said before all governing forms become corrupt after a time.
To put a fine edge on it, the clans were liberating the IS, in their minds. They needed to be shown the true light of being better then what they were. And in more then a few cases it was true. More then a few crime families were destroyed from the invasion as well as other corrupt entities. The pirate hordes being one. Not all of them, be enough to remove them from being a threat for a while.
If the clans stuck with the SLDF ideas, they would never have invaded or had done so long before they did. The entire physical for duty is the basis for genetic purity. As the positions dry up, the requirements go up.
Unless you need fodder, then you take anyone and hand them what might be a working rifle. Why waste a real good one, if they are not expected to live past opening the door?
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ghostrider
04/12/20 08:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans would be right in their desire to remove the taint from the IS if the only thing they could do is assassinate, bomb and cause collateral damage against something they don't like. For someone that thinks this style of 'warfare', which it isn't, needs to be removed, then they would have done so.
As said before, and will be repeated. The clans would NOT have been told to sit out. You can NOT tell them, they have no chance to become leader of all the clans for all time. That would be completely against the superior warrior concept, as those that would stand idly by would become dead or forced into being bondsmen or civilians. That is the end result if you do not become the ilclan. The 4 would not have been the only clans by any means. It may well be those that come in last in the invasion scheme might come thru the CC area, but they would all have forces in the IS. Well except the Wolves in this case. The whole idea is that you give up the dream of being the top dog. Not something ANY clan would allow. Even the wolves might have a break in ranks from this. So by your definition, this had to be all or none. No exceptions.
As you seem to have forgotten, the year of peace was for all bloodnamed to return to the home worlds to elect a new ilkhan. They were over confident the IS was pacified enough to allow them to be away from the front lines. This had nothing to do with getting new bids to invade. They did activate more clans to come in, and it was more to hold back the Falcons and Jaguars. There is nothing to suggest there was ANY new bids to enter the conflict.
As said already. The idea of not being allowed to fight for the right of being the best is against all clan fiber. Nicholas did NOT come up with the one target makes one person leader for life. All would never give up the chance to become the top dog.
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ghostrider
04/12/20 08:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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As it seems the concept of what a dictatorship is and does has fled the conversation, let's review it.
A dictatorship has the ruler (ilkhan) send what will be done to the senate (Grand council) that then send out orders to the military to make sure it is done and done right. The military then pressures the workers to do it and do it now.
What is the difference between the Roman empire and the clans?
The clans went after someone that was already 'organized' and could fight back. The lack of numbers as well as the hordes of enemies was the issue. They are still one and the same. Dictatorships. Apples and oranges only to those that want to change definitions to fit their view, not what others know it as.
And each nation would be considered each world in this case.
The trick you love to brag about with Katherine is the very trick Comstar would use to avoid being blamed for the conditions on the clan held worlds.
Lies like they were protecting as many as they could, but a few would not stop hassling the clans, on to, they were only doing their job, as well as a few overstepped their authority. Even having captured workers would not change this. Simple person was forced to confess under torture comes to mind. The first circuit could even claim they could not get orders thru because of the coms issues. The clans did have their own network, so should know how to operate as well as jam the IS HPGs.
What Sci Fi game doesn't have assassinations being what brings about the fall of the empires? It is about the standard way to set up the major conflict that happens in the game. So what is the difference between someone being assassinated or having a nuke dropped on a world? It all starts the war. It is less damaging to assassinate someone, but then that is about the only way some people would ever get to lead anything. It doesn't make it right. But it does start the story.
Forget the assassin that killed Melissa was used to kill Omi? Or that Melissa would not step down if Victor did die? She didn't step back after Hanse died, so why now?
Katherine could do nothing that her mother could not counter with the exception of assassins, and with those in the government, that would have been far harder once Victor was killed.
Melissa would find the evidence and have Katherine removed. Katherine was a shadow of Melissa and she knew it. There would be no stopping Melissa if Victor went first. And with this, Katherine looked to be trying to show up her brother. The implications that Victor killed their mother is how she got into position to attempt the take over. It would not have happened if their mother was not killed first.
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Requiem
04/13/20 04:14 AM
1.158.222.248
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The clans can have as many warriors as they can ship in the IS. Only those bid can invade worlds. Not sure why this needs to be repeated.
Where is the hard and fast printed rule? …. Otherwise it is just an assumption based upon various stories cobbled together.
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Her ego would demand it
She has her father’s cunning …. Did any of the other houses commit forces against her in the Canon story? …. Look at the way she dealt with Sun Tzu ….. look at her media presence …..
Her purges related to units who sided with Victor!
Sorry but I disagree completely with this assessment.
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No nukes, but assassinations, terrorist attacks, poison and such are to be used?
How far is too far in the game?
Villainy is a concept based upon an individual’s birth – and the history they have been indoctrinated into …
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The clans were almost all military
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Caste_System
“Despite their preeminent position the warrior caste is not the largest of the five castes: as of 3062 there were around 115,000 Clan warriors, or just .01% of the Clans' total population. Members of the warrior caste also had the shortest lifespan, with an average life expectancy of 45.2 years.”
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and would never be able to run as a democracy
Disagree – how does the new Clan Smoke Jaguar work without warriors? And how do het a new ilKhan …. By election perhaps?
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The SL wasn't even one.
How many individual worlds have a democratic government? ….. a gret deal when you start reading about them …. Have a look at the back of the fist House book for Steiner, Davion and Marik.
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the clans were liberating the IS, in their minds.
And the same could be said with Japan and Germany in WW2.
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If the clans stuck with the SLDF ideas, they would never have invaded or had done so long before they did.
Twisted ideology is very easy – consider the Wave – a high-school psychology exercise.
If the clans stuck with the SLDF ideas, they would never have invaded or had done so long before they did.
genetic purity - Nationalsozialistische Rassenhygiene
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The clans would NOT have been told to sit out. You can NOT tell them, they have no chance to become leader of all the clans for all time. That would be completely against the superior warrior concept, as those that would stand idly by would become dead or forced into being bondsmen or civilians. That is the end result if you do not become the ilclan.
Then where were there so few Clans to start and remain for the Invasion? If they could not be told why didn’t they (the non invasion clans) just invade also?
Because they believe in their societies rules?
Some were allowed to go to the invasion due to the bidding rules and others had to stay home … Just as Nicholas designed.
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What is the difference between the Roman empire and the clans?
Massive differences …..
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The trick you love to brag about with Katherine is the very trick Comstar would use to avoid being blamed for the conditions on the clan held worlds…..Lies
Except you could not prove Katherine’s and you can with ComStar.
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She didn't step back after Hanse died, so why now?
Her age Vs. Victors age.
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Melissa would find the evidence and have Katherine removed.
Only if she suspected foul play from the get go.
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The implications that Victor killed their mother is how she got into position to attempt the take over.
And here I thought it was Victor trying to put a fake on the Marik Throne (The death of Thomas Marik’s son to Leukemia?)
And taking the Fed Suns – Yvonne was incompetent so she just gave it to Katherine!
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It would not have happened if their mother was not killed first.
In the canon story … you are correct.
In any other true story she would have been First Princess before Thomas Marik’s son died of Leukemia –and she would have made sure he would have made it home before he died (in front of the Media at the same time to demonstrate the compassionate Katherine to the people of the IS).
Thus no war with the FWL ……
All Hail Katherine the Peacemaker!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/13/20 01:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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The cobbled together stories are better then the printed fact they can't have them. Oh wait. There isn't anything printed saying they can't have the warriors in the IS that aren't part of the invasion. So for canon, the complaint that they are is closed.
And when the SLDF formed the clans, most were military. I guess that point should have been clarified. They were formed by the SLDF exodus fleet. So when started that is why they couldn't do a democracy.
So the military made a decision that would affect all the military by voting for the course of action and that makes it a democracy? Something is not right with that thought.
Genetic purity was not one of the ideas of the SLDF, so that concept would not have come about. The entire Iron womb idea would not have gotten main stream like it did.
The limiting of the invasion clans were done so the developers could allow the IS to survive. How bad to you think their blitzkrieg would have been had the clans struck in full force? And how little they would have left for their future plans? Oh wait. They were favoring the IS by not wiping them out even more. The news of the FC should have been enough to send more clans directly at the LC portion. The goal being Terra, but to have the military of the FC on the flank, all would know the Falcons could not hold them back forever.
Dictatorships run on the same principles and ideas. They are so similar that the names seem to be the only difference in them.
Melissa was not as old as more then a few archons of the past. And with that, if she were going to step down, she would have made sure Katherine didn't inherit the throne. And she would have the power to do so. Granted, if the developers would have kept with the others faults, this would be moot after Katherine had her killed. And it would happen, as Melissa would interfer with the way Katherine was doing things.
You say it was to put a fake on the throne, yet the entire story has Victor trying to keep the FWL from hitting the FC during the issues with the clans and such. Printed reason of preventing a war until things settled down, someone saying it was a false leader on the throne. And yet nothing happened to the LC side? Sounds more like a collusion with Katherine and Marik. The FS sent a lot of resources to defend against the clans, yet the LC sent nothing or even tried to talk it out?
Actually, Katherine would more then likely kept the double, so one day, she would control the FWL thru the double. She only released the information to hurt Victor, and get more of the public on her side. Without the masses, she could not do much against Victor. That also swayed even more of the military to back her. The lies making it seem like she was on their side.
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Requiem
04/13/20 06:41 PM
1.158.222.248
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The cobbled together stories are better then the printed fact they can't have them.
i.e. an interpretation of a law – NOT a hard and fast rule!
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And when the SLDF formed the clans, most were military.
Correct …. They are the defenders of tradition and social values – they are supposed to be best of us!
What about the civilians that went with them – what about the majority of the warriors who were no longer part of the military (now civilians) to build a society – what about all the people that Kerensky kidnapped and forces to go on this voyage of the dammed – did they sign up for a pure military society?
Like father like son – they both destroyed what the Star League stood for and in so doing became what they hated the most – Amaris.
The Clans have NOT retained any of the Star League values – They have adopted nearly all of the AMARIS society values.
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How bad to you think their blitzkrieg would have been had the clans struck in full force?
Where is the vaunted game play concept of balance now?
If all attacked then all would reduce the number of clans to approx. 10 – they would not have kept in at the full amount as per canon – they would have changed many of the underlying concepts less they completely turn the Battletech universe into a complete and utter farce.
Uber Fed-Com to Uber Clans? Same problem just more players.
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she would have made sure Katherine didn't inherit the throne.
No evidence that she would have done this! – there is evidence that she offered to step down for Victor, so if Victor had died in combat it could be extrapolated she would have stood down for Katherine Q.E.D.
As stated before TPTB did not have to kill off Melisa to put Katherine in power – Katherine only had to kill Victor to obtain power.
This story development was not very well thought out (in my opinion).
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the entire story has Victor trying to keep the FWL from hitting the FC during the issues
Victor wanted to keep the Status Quo …. Ie for treating Marik’s son in hospital the Fed-Com Received weapons.
He feared that if Mariks’ son died this would stop …. So he replaced the child with a double.
And yet when he was caught out it was viewed he was attempting to put a double on the throne (and yet at the same time it was proved that Marik himself was a fake.)
It had nothing at all to do with the fear that the FWL would be hitting the Fed-Com at this stage.
What victor did here showed what a despicable leader he is – Hedonist – only thinking about what he wants! Did he even stop for one second to think about how Marik would feel at the death of his son that Victor covered up?
At this stage victor is a pitiful leader!
Katherine didn’t even know about the double until knowledge of it was released to the media.
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Katherine would more then likely kept the double, so one day, she would control the FWL thru the double.
If this plan succeeded – this would mean that no one knew about it – thus she never split the Fed-Com in two and Victor was dead – thus placing her on the Throne!
She didn’t release the information – remember the female FWL spy who obtained the DNA evidence – and then sent that evidence to Marik who releases the information – and who was captured by Victors people – who then used that DNA kit to prove that Markik was a fake – and who went on to work with Victor’s team to find the evidence that would prove that Katherine murdered her mother ……
Katherine was a master manipulator via the media - the public loved her.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/13/20 06:59 PM
66.74.60.165
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As stated before. Canon is being questioned so the answers given are for canon. The alt does not exist when answering canon complaints. Running to it when you get the information you want, yet don't like isn't going to be accepted anymore.
The alt can have pigs flying tractors with death rays for all that matters.
Well if the whole concept of the clan invasion was done as logic would suggest, there would be no clan left out of the race. So wanting it to be logical would have been the doom of the IS. Not full conquered nations, but they would not have been stopped. So the balance was to remove the logic of warfare of using all available forces. A case of careful what you wish for.
Victor did not have to die either. It was the quick way to have her take over. She could well have been given the position as Victor would find out he was a military leader only. He could not run the FC the way it needed to be. But this way would have removed the civil war. It would also allow the FC to remove the Falcons from their lands, then the Wolves. After that, the FRR problem. Once those clans were gone the DC would be next, or sending their forces to hit the clans at home. Not something they really wanted, as it removes the deadlock on who would become permanent lord of the SL. And there is always some evidence of a crime. Techs going missing. What ever.
Victor only kept the Gemini program going. He did not create it. And had Katherine been the one to decide, she would have kept it going as well. The ONLY reason she said anything is to hurt Victor. In that regard, she hurt the FC with the FS taking the blunt of the physical damage, but destroying the alliance by removing herself and the LA. Which comes to mind that she would have given up the FC throne as she was the one that removed 'her' lands from the alliance.
The fact she could manipulate the press makes her a better ruler? Her entire cause was to take as much power as she could, and destroy all that were even just neutral to it. This power madness causes the dictator rule, that is worse for the nation then having the politicians running in, like they do anyways.
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Requiem
04/14/20 07:04 AM
1.158.222.248
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Well if the whole concept of the clan invasion was done as logic would suggest, there would be no clan left out of the race.
As stated previously this goes against the Clans custom of bidding to determine victors – the Canon history did this for a purpose to demonstrate their society.
[quote Victor did not have to die either. It was the quick way to have her take over.
Yes victor could have survived (as stated previously in other Alt History Posts).
However, the inner sphere would have been a more exiting place with Katherine at the helm of the Fed-Com.
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Victor only kept the Gemini program going. He did not create it.
Victor USED the Gemini project – the child died far away from family so that Victor could maintain his political agenda - so that makes it somehow alright?
Katherine – we do not know what she would have done as it was never considered – only an educated guess.
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The fact she could manipulate the press makes her a better ruler?
This is part of the job, and whet she was doing is playing one of the versions of the great game – and no she never showed any form of madness, not like the truly mad rulers within the Battletech universe, she demanded signs of allegiance and she got it – a highly rational way of knowing who would bow to you.
She never once acted as a dictator – do you really believe the Lyran people would have loved her so dearly if she acted the dictator? I for one do not believe she even once demonstrated such a persona.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/14/20 07:04 AM)
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ghostrider
04/14/20 01:27 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans do not bid to determine the victors. They do so to limit damage to their forces. The victors are the ones that win those battles. To be told that you can not even attempt to become leader of all would not be agreed upon by the clans. As each clan would be out to prove they are better then the rest, sitting at home would be counter to that. And by doing so, prove you are not worthy of being anything more then history, because you have no future. That is more feared then almost anything else to the clans. You will not have your legacy pass on, as your clan will be destroyed.
If I remember right, when she found out, she considered the plan to be smart, but knew Victor didn't come up with it. Her father did. So we do know it was considered.
And it would be against her being to not have continued it, but even accelerate or expand it. It would be more to keeping with the peaceful, loving princess persona by not having to use the armed forces to end conflicts. She would still use them, but out of the public eye.
Very much the snake in the grass.
Demanding those that oppose her be removed, even if they do so because of bad choices, or not having a clue on what was going on isn't a dictator? It sure isn't being a fair person to hear all sides of an issue.
Ordering people killed and entire planets punished because they told her they didn't support her idea, isn't a dictator?
Something about a duck comes to mind. Heil was part of that phrase..
She did it so the general public wouldn't figure it out. Now protecting her people would have been different the subjecting them.
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Requiem
04/14/20 06:05 PM
1.158.222.248
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The clans do not bid to determine the victors. They do so to limit damage to their forces. The victors are the ones that win those battles.
And in this case they engaged in a bidding process to see whom would be allowed to become a participant with regards the Invasion of the Inner Sphere – and the right to become the il-Clan.
Each Clan agreed to this process!
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion
Please read the subheading Preparations for War – “The process for who would assume the other three invasion corridors would take place over two full days of bidding - each Clan submitting the number of forces it planned to commit, with the goal of using the least resources necessary to achieve the objective and thereby maximize efficiency - broken up into three stages to allow the participates to study each others' wagers and modify their bids.”
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If I remember right, when she found out, she considered the plan to be smart.
Proof please – Book and Page No.
Canon – she took the opportunity to form the new Lyran state and thereby dissolve the Federated Commonwealth and keep her Lyran half out of the war with the FWL (Operation Guerrero) thus promoting her image as the Princess of Peace.
And in initiating Operation Gemini we get to see Victor’s win at any cost political attitude.
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Demanding those that oppose her be removed
Not removal - correcting bad attitude by slowing / stopping key Jump-ship transports.
Every leader must hold the whip (or have others to do it for them) handle to those who might toe the line –
https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Party_Whips.htm
Show me a leader in the Battletech universe who didn’t end up killing someone – directly or indirectly?
And how many did?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/15/20 12:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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The idea that any clan would agree to the bid, goes against the way the Mongol clans would do. To be told you can't even try to become the lord of the clans would not sit at all with the others. You might as well get absorbed into one of the other clans now, as it would happen in the future. At least then, you could have a chance to be part of the clan that rules them all.
Win at all costs? initiating Gemini was not his choosing, but he did continue it. Win at all costs is Katherine. Victor did it to prevent a war from hitting the FC that would destroy any sort of cohesive defense/offense against the clans. If he was going win at any cost, he would have sent Joshua's body back with assassins to remove Thomas. Oh yeah. That is Katherine's MO.
Have the ship that is carrying the body be attacked, So he can claim Joshua was alive when he was sent. Things like that. Even leak to the CC that Victor is on that ship, and they would gladly hit it to be rid of him. There are plenty of ways the win at all costs would be played out. Even having the ship drop nukes on the FWL government, would be more a sure sign of that. But for the alt, you can have Victor slap Thomas in the face and tell him what ever. Canon is not set up in the way you want it to. That is why you need the alt and twisting everything to fit.
You hate canon, yet for some reason, won't stop using it as a base. Logic holes galore, then compounding them with even more. Saying you want a more logical story, can't be done with canon.
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Requiem
04/15/20 03:22 AM
1.158.222.248
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The idea that any clan would agree to the bid, goes against the way the Mongol clans would do.
And yet the canon story says otherwise!
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initiating Gemini was not his choosing
Then who ordered, First Price Victor Steiner- Davion – to just allow the child to die in a hospital alone, (his father not even there to comfort him), and where he is subsequently replaced by another child?
And yes win at all costs – what else would you call this most despicable action to a father and a son?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions ......
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If he was going win at any cost, he would have sent Joshua's body back with assassins to remove Thomas.
What would this grant Victor other than a war with the FWL?
There is no military or political advantage in killing Thomas – that is unless you want anarchy and war!
And no it is not Katherine’s MO – she never did anything without considering its ramifications to her personally and to that of her Power base the Lyran State.
What could she have gained by going through with such a despicable act? – Katherines’ MO in this case would be to get the child to his father as fast as possible, then use this act as an IOU in the future (ie. Get his vote to become First Lord of the IS)
All these scenarios end up with Victor and the FS at war with someone – great win!
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Saying you want a more logical story, can't be done with canon.
Pick a point in time and then make it more rational from that point forward – easy, logical and fun.
Completing a whole new universe requires a vast amount of time and energy and can also be done – its just not for me.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/15/20 02:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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And yet the person screaming they didn't follow the 'logical' things and continues to use them as a basis is saying that they wouldn't all demand to be included, and the bids would mainly be about where and when, with what units they would enter the attack. Why isn't canon wrong about this, as it is with 'almost everything else'? Because it would destroy the FC. Stopping all future plans for what to do with it.
There are more despicable actions, like having the child/parent assassinated in front of them. Torture as well. The wiki says Victor did it, but in the books it says it was continued under Victor. If it was anyone other then a house leader, it would have been praised as keeping the people safe, or had Katherine been the one to order it. Hate Victor all you want. Trying to make a monster out of things that aren't true doesn't fly. Victor is no saint. But compared to Katherine, he can fly without any mechanical assistance. If not for her take all power at all costs attitude, she may well have been the better choice.
First off, you frame someone else, such as one of the regions in FWL space, or even the CC, in canon. Having Thomas removed, it would send the entire FWL into chaos and civil war. More then a few regions did not like the Marik's at all, and would be happy to take the FWL into their custody. This would not be in the best interests of the FC at this time, but then Katherine confirming the spy's statement caused the war he was trying to avoid.
Katherine would find the spy and capture them. I wanted to say outright kill them, but having them interrogated to find others in the cell/network would be more likely. She can NOT have anyone disclosing her secrets, ever.
So making it logical from that point on, yet the entire basis has so many 'issues' that it is easy to fix? And bagging on the whole universe is not something you want to put time and effort into, says you don't want to fix anything, but just rag on those that did put in the time and effort.
From the little I have seen, more issues come up with it. The precognitive ability of the FC is one of them. You know from the future story line that the clans are coming, so you do what you can to counter it in 3025 or sooner? If the FC had those resources, the DC would be little more then the CC was in 3025, and the FRR would never have seen the light of day as an independent nation. They would have been a political entity in the FC.
Upgrading the periphery border would not have been a priority, but removing the enemy from those areas would have. The 4th war would not have ended like canon, as Hanse would not have had to gut the jumpship and dropships from the economy like he did. That is what got him to stop the war. Not so much the black out, but his economy. And yes, the black out did cause the commercial part of it to fall apart. But with enough ships, they could have had a circuit to bring messages to other worlds to get around the blackout. Or seized the HPG network at that point, suggesting Comstar had allied itself with the CC to avoid them being destroyed. Even hint the DC was helping that.
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