ghostrider
06/02/20 02:14 AM
66.74.60.165
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It seems you don't understand the real way things went down. Katherine was not EXILED to the clans. She WILLINGLY went with Vlad, and even was happy about it.
Other then expanding her power base, what did Katherine really do for the LC? And who benefitted from depriving the LC of Melissa, one of the most loved leaders of the FC? Tore apart the LC and millions if not billions of lives just for her pleasure? Not Victor.
I want to say the DC leaders name and Kinjiri or something like that, who was with his front line almost the entire time he ruled, during the succession wars. He was the one to order the Kentares massacre if I remember right. So it isn't the first time one did so. A few others were in the front lines a lot of the time as well. Doing what they thought was necessary. As you have the entire history of the IS memorized, this should not be a shock to you.
Now there is something that rings true. Most of those that returned to the capital. NOT ALL. A few rulers were better off not returning, as they had no interest in the day to day operations.
To expose Katherine would be exposing the government and how they operate. Katherine paid for the assassination with the LC tax payers money. Worthless land sold to the government for highly inflated prices. What would that do to the peoples trust? Oh yeah. Not a concern.
Where is the people's welfare concerned with Katherine courting not one, but two enemies of the FC in order to destroy her own family? And yet again. The only time Victor was with Omi was during the Dragoon meeting, and I want to say one time that he saved Hohiro. So where did he put his concerns before the state? It isn't like he was plotting the downfall of the FC like Katherine was.
And the actual wiki page says Katherine did not care for anyone but herself. That is the general concensus a majority of the players agree upon. So far, only you have said otherwise.
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ghostrider
06/02/20 02:28 AM
66.74.60.165
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You really need to read the actual history of the game before spouting off anymore. Duke Sandavol of the Draconis march had Katherine start trying to starve out the people as he was not bending his knee to her. The ENTIRE MARCH was starting to have issues with this. So no proof?
Before the Civil war, she also started trying to remove George Hasek. Ordering units to 'garrison' worlds that had units on them already, then tried to remove those very units, even though they were house units, not FC. The entire issue with Kathil and the ship yards is one such example.
You don't like starting at the beginning with a lot of the complaints, as they would not even be written if you did. The FC was destroyed by Katherine, as she was trying to destroy it before Victor even agree to Gemini. The personal gain he would get is getting equipment for his people to continue to resist the clans. You want the alt to have him try to replace Thomas, that is fine. But trying to suggest canon screwed up, or that Victor was this evil leader for canon isn't. So step one. Had Katherine not even started causing issues in the FC, things would not have gotten to the point of the civil war. It started without him. That is a pure fact. Katherine started it. Again. Conspiring with enemies of the FC in order to do so, BEFORE Victor got into the civil war. I am only going by what is actually printed.
So the 4th war, and the surprise invasion of the CC was found out by the other houses? That Katherine went to the clans to find help in destroying the FC, which would hurt Victor? Being watched, and actually gaining intel that is good isn't the same thing. And for most, the spies are hard pressed to get into certain areas, much less get anything from it.
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Requiem
06/02/20 05:12 AM
101.185.79.245
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It seems you don't understand the real way things went down.
I agree, being taken up the ramp to the guillotine is no way against your will! (satire)
Katherine was exiled by victor – this is in no way with her consent – Vlad has effectively removed her form the political board. The only way she can return now is if one of her supporters rescues her and assists with a coup for her to once more take the throne.
What did the Romans ever do for us …. Errr., sorry wrong show (satire once again)
Really, she didn’t become so popular with the Lyran people just because of her good looks and her last name …. Rebuilding the economy, military and nobility of the Lyran people took time … something the Lyran people loved her for … or was this point lost along the way?
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the Kentares massacre
Good example, When Minoru Kurita (DCMS Coordinator) was on the front lines a FS sniper killed, what he believed at the time was a DCMS Colonel, upon being notified of this event his son Jinjiro Kurita ordered the massacre … thus giving the FS the rage to strike back and reverse their gains ….
If Minoru was within the palace none of this would have happened …. The Reversal of fortune of the FS in beating back the DCMS as well as the massacre itself …..
Thus showing a leader has no place on the front lines, especially when his son believes the idea of genocide is a normal military tactic …..
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Katherine paid for the assassination with the LC tax payers money.
Speculation …. Was never proven, Victor was never able to obtain definitive proof on this point ….
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The only time Victor was with Omi was during the Dragoon meeting
Thus how did he get her pregnant before he departed the IS to Huntress? …. As it was on this day that Omika tried to tell him, but he was too preoccupied to pick up on what she was trying to tell him …. Victor’s not the brightest when it comes to this ……
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And the actual wiki page says Katherine did not care for anyone but herself. That is the general concensus a majority of the players agree upon.
Then she must have been a great actress …. You do not make a sizeable political block without being sensitive to the needs of your supporters.
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Duke Sandavol of the Draconis march had Katherine start trying to starve out the people as he was not bending his knee to her. The ENTIRE MARCH was starting to have issues with this.
Book and page number – think about the number of Jumsphips required to do this – there is no way she could keep such an overt move hidden from the people of the IS – so no this is not possible – as she is into covert moves!
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George Hasek and Kathil
She is the leader of the military - unless these units receive a direct order by her to leave – they stay put! Units must obey the chain of command and she is the at the very top.
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The FC was destroyed by Katherine
Sorry this statement is not totally correct …. Victor has to accept his share of the blame for this ….
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Had Katherine not even started causing issues in the FC, things would not have gotten to the point of the civil war.
If Victor was a half-way decent leader it would have been impossible for Katherine to begin plotting for the throne – but as he was locking in intelligence and wisdom it should have been easy to remove him.
As stated many times – Katherine only had to kill Victor to take the throne – so why all this stupidity is beyond anyones understanding – other than t create a story with next to nil validity.
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spies
Yes I agree spies are absolutely useless! (satire)
Snow fire was absolutely useless in assassinating the DC coordinator. (satire)
The son of Quintus Allard – Justin Xiang and Alex Mallory were absolutely useless during the 4th Succession War (satire)
It comes down to access to the right person at the right time ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/02/20 12:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still want to cling to the idea that Katherine was exiled? Fact: there was no order for her to go with Vlad when he showed up. She was a prisoner that was about to be put in her 'jail cell' when he did. She did NOT refuse to go with him, and was even overly willing to go with him. As with anyone joining the enemy wholeheartedly, she would not be allowed to return. Victor screwed up by allowing her to live. But then he was not the murderer Katherine tried to portrait him as, though she would have pulled the trigger on him, even if it was broadcast live. Also, it was a get out of jail free scenario.
The Kentares massacre could very well have still happened. Minoru may still have ordered it, but not been there to watch, which is why they were ordered put to death by sword. The DC government ran fine with him in the field. Pissing off the FS more then the invasion was otherwise wasn't a good choice. And the DC is far stricter on what those put in position to do things can actually do.
They had the proof. Otherwise, how would they know it happened. The issue with it was no court would convict on it, as there is enough ways to make the evidence look manufactured. It was there, just the judicial system would allow it to be distorted. Especially when Katherine was already in power in the LC. She would have shut down the case before it even saw the light of day. She was the ruler of the LC in all but name at his point.
The conception probably happened when he returned Hohiro from his capture. I would have to find my books and reread the time frame here, but can't get to them yet.
Katherine used the tried and true way of preventing supplies from reaching the people that needed it. An issue with the jumpships either mechanical or went to the wrong place. It seemed to happen a lot around this time, and the people didn't question it outside of the areas that had it happen. Again. This is printed in the books.
The FC is set up so March leaders have some leeway to move troops around. The duke had the world secured, and the forces Katherine had there, would have been better served to garrison other worlds. The Duke has the authority to send them off world. Might not be to where he wants, but off world.
Yeah. Victor is to blame. He should have smothered her when she was born, thus preventing her from doing any of this.
I did not say spies were useless. I said they do not have magical powers that let them find out everything. If this was true, there would be no such thing as a secret bunker or manufacturing plant. Every unit in the game would be known as to where each is and the exact count. Also, they would have known things like who was doing what. There could be no such thing as blindsiding anyone, as what happened with the 4th war, or the assassination of Melissa, or even the entire clan invasion. And Katherine would never have gotten into a power position if they could find out everything.
Also social generals would never become generals, and even have to rise thru the ranks the old fashion way. Serve for years, showing they were better then the rest. Oh yeah. Operation Doppelganger would not have happened. So the entire premise of the 4th war would not have happened. Hell, the SL would not have fallen as they would have known Amaris was going to assassinate the first lord.
Wow. The terran alliance would have known the colonies would revolt,.. The entire history of the game would be changed and here would be no such things a diversions in the game.
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Requiem
06/02/20 02:17 PM
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Fact: there was no order for her to go with Vlad when he showed up.
Fact, did anyone ask for Katherine’s consent?
Fact, Victor had her removed physically from her cell, had her marched out and then just handed her over to Vlad (like a piece of meat) when he did not have to – he could have said no – he considered the idea and HE decided to hand her over!
Did anyone ask her if she wanted to become part of Clan Wolf? No, no one asked her! Victor and his cronies just handed her over with no ‘by your leave’.
She never had a choice in the matter!
Question: Where and when is the Trial scheduled for Katherine as to her many crimes? Nil scheduled – why? Victor was never able to obtain any evidence!
By handing over Katherine all he is doing is removing a political enemy!
These are all facts when you look at from the point of view of the average Lyran and Suns citizen.
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The Kentares massacre could very well have still happened.
With the absence of the DC Coordinator there is no justification for the massacre –no snipers bullet – no massacre – as there is no justification for the order - it is as simple as that!
Which proves leaders should remain on their capitol worlds!
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They had the proof. Otherwise, how would they know it happened. The issue with it was no court would convict on it,
Either you have the proof and go to a Court case or you don’ t! No Court case no proof!
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She was the ruler of the LC in all but name at his point.
No – she was in chains at this point and Victor decided to take her all the way from where she surrendered – New Avalon – all the way to the border with Clans. Of which is a very strange idea by Victor when you joint out this is the heartland of Katherine’s political power base and makes no sense what so ever. A closer and more secure prison would have been in the boondocks of the Federated Suns on any border world adjacent to periphery space.
But that is not logical! (satire)
Sarna has Kitsune Kurita – b.3063 – Incorrect
November 3059 – is when the IS forces followed fleeing Clan Smoke Jaguar forces to the Clan’s Homeworld of Huntress.
Omika tried to inform Victor that she was pregnant at this stage – 9 months later – so some time close to July 3060 (at the latest) is when Victor’s and Omika’s child was born.
Conception therefore sometime within September / October 3059 –
However as from 10 August Victor was n Schuyler fighting the Jaguar Regulars
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This is printed in the books.
Then – Book and Page Number.
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The FC is set up so March leaders have some leeway to move troops around.
This is not an absolute – the chain of command via a direct order from the First Princess can veto any request of a Duke.
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I did not say spies were useless.
It all comes down to each individual spy and the access they have. Remember it was a FWL spy that broke the news of Victors swap of Janos Marik for the fake Janos Marik.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/03/20 12:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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Katherine was more then eager to go with Vlad, as well as shot up a fist in victory, as it meant she would not be a prisoner in the LA. She did not say ANYTHING about not wanting to go, and you know she would have, if she didn't want to go. But I don't have my books on me, so can't say where it is at.
And Katherine had a choice. She chose to go to the clans, and manipulate Vlad, trying to do anything to destroy Victor.
Let's see. The response to the assassination of his father caused Minoru to order the massacre. Do you think he wouldn't have ordered it from Luthien? This would be breaking with what we knew of the character. It would not have been so bad, had he been in Luthien, as he watched as many be put to the sword as he could. It may also have not been the turning point for the FS in that invasion.
Still not reading the paragraph the statements are in. Katherine was already ruling the LC at the time of the evidence of her killing her mother was finally found. How was she in chains at this point? Using this information would have opened up a can of worms the government did NOT want opened. It would expose the inner workings of things like land grants and such, which would show all how the rich continue to make money illegally, thru politics.
Why don't you take your comprehensive reading and actually read the books, not just skim them. And while doing so, read the actual words printed, not the faerie tale of the accusations that just aren't true for canon.
Like this one.
An agent from the Capellan Confederation discovered the ruse and Chancellor Sun-Tzu Liao soon brought the news to Captain-General Thomas Marik.
It wasn't someone from the FWL that found it out, but a spy from the CC. This is yet another statement under the Katherine wiki entry. If I remember right, the FWL checked the results with their own agent.
And I am going to assume the naming of Janos was a typo. It was Joshua that was replaced.
And yet another gem.
I don't want him neutral, I want him dead. I want you to destroy my brother and everyone that follows him. Then I want you to round up everyone that supports him and make an example of them, too!
”
— Archon Katherine Steiner-Davion, giving orders to Field Marshal Simon Gallagher and intelligence advisor Richard Dehaver, September 7, 3063
Edited by ghostrider (06/03/20 12:19 PM)
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Requiem
06/03/20 03:08 PM
101.185.79.245
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Katherine was more then eager to go with Vlad,
Sorry but NO this Statement is incorrect – Katherine did not want to go with Vlad. There is no future for Katherine unless she can escape and return!
Vlad threatened war.
And Victor just gave her to Vlad
EndGame – Page 272 – 273 – There is not one piece of dialog by Katherine in this entire setting - only Victor believing he saw a flicker of triumph in her eyes at Vlad’s request.
But it is quite clear Victor realized that Katherine would suffer through a Clan Warrior training program – and from then on she was forgotten about until Alaric came on the scene at Victor’s funeral.
Let me ask this – As an average citizen (who knows nothing other than that which was on the news vids) from either the LA or the FS all you know about the Civil War is Victor wins on New Avalon and then transports her all the way back to Arc Royal and from there he just gives his sister to the enemy of the IS for the past 17 years – whom you have been told is the greatest enemy the IS has – and you remember the Star League was formed with the sole purpose of dealing with these Clans.
Rather than put his sister on trial and put his case of Katherine’s perfidy before the people he just hands her over with not one shot fired. Then you remember that Arc Royal is Morgan Kell and his son is the Wolf Khan in Exile – What are you supposed to make of this? Of all the places Victor could have taken Katherine he took her directly to Arc Royal and from there she was immediately given to the Khan of the Wolves. Then you realize that this means that there will be no Trail whatsoever victor has effectively gotten rid of his sister by throwing her to the wolves (the enemy of the IS).
Time to realize this little drama Victor has played out on Arc Royal can but have one interpretation – Victor has made sure that by handing over Katherine to the Wolves there will be no trial, he will never provide the evidence of his sister’s guilt – it will all be covered over – so how are you an average citizen supposed to take this? This is cover up – victor used his connections with Arc Royal and the Wolves in Exile to be rid of his political enemy rather than sully his hands and kill her outright!
All that is really known is that Victor has created the greatest legal cover up of all time in regards to his sister!
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The response to the assassination of his father caused Minoru to order the massacre.
If Minoru was still on Luthien there was no snipers bullet – so there is no massacre!
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Francesca Jenkins
Is the name of the spy who broke the news as to Joshua’s death.
Bred for War – Page 377 – “This further suggests that the Word of Blake sent the message to Sun-Tzu’s agents to create an incident to set off a war.” … and on Page 378 ….”Which means Thomas Marik isn’t Thomas Marik”.
So to be absolutely accurate yes she was Capellan – however the activation code came from the Word of Blake …. And at the same time Victor was able to prove Thomas was not Thomas.
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I don't want him neutral, I want him dead. I want you to destroy my brother and everyone that follows him. Then I want you to round up everyone that supports him and make an example of them, too!” — Archon Katherine Steiner-Davion, giving orders to Field Marshal Simon Gallagher and intelligence advisor Richard Dehaver, September 7, 3063
All this proves is that Katherine is purging her enemies – quite normal in the scheme of things.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/03/20 06:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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You claim Katherine never ordered the death of anyone. So the statement of not wanting him neutral or dead proves that statement wrong. And there are witnesses to this as she ordered Gallagher and Dehaver in the same office at the same time. And this was an order to kill Victor, her brother and ruler of the FC she was trying to usurp.
Might need to look at the actual military. Minoru was not there to fight, but to survey the area they had just taken. Also, it is a moral booster for the troops to have their leader show up. Something that does happen in the military, though in todays world, it tends to be a safe area, but not always. It also depends on the leader.
And still not going to see the fact the government runs on it's own, when you give people the authorization to do things. Otherwise the LA wouldn't have run when she went to the clans for help. So in this case, all or nothing. You can't say Victor couldn't, but Katherine could. No apples and oranges here. Either it runs without them, or both were the 'bad' guy.
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Requiem
06/03/20 08:06 PM
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You claim Katherine never ordered the death of anyone.
No, the original question related to whether Katherine used dropships as a means of bring her Dukes to heel – by causing internal supply issues she could keep them on a short leash.
However in this case this is not the point. Check the above date – September 3063 – in regards to this statement – then put it in its true historical context in that by September 3063 the FedCom Civil War is in full flight where dozens of battles on dozens of worlds are occurring. Therefore it is quite normal for the leader of one side to order the purge of all dissident forces on the other side of the civil war.
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Minoru Kurita
He accompanied the 6th Sword of Light to Kentares IV – with his Battlemaster.
He was shot and killed in August of 2796
(Sarna Wiki Page – 2796 needs to be fixed as it has Minoru being killed on the 14th September and the massacre starting on the 11th September)
The Kentares massacre begins mid September 2796
Still does not change the point if Minoru had remained within his command bunker on the Capitol World, rather than accompanying the 6th to Kentares – he never would have been shot by a sniper – the massacre would never have occurred!
If his going with the 6th was a moral boost with the troops then their guard goes with them to secure the area for the Coordinator. So where are the personal Guard?
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And still not going to see the fact the government runs on it's own, when you give people the authorization to do things.
Really? - when there is a system that does not require a ruler then why have a supreme dictator? Better to just get rid of them and allow the government to run in a more efficient manner if this is the case.
When working within a government there is always one person in control who has the ultimate say in how things are going to occur. Sorry but this statement cannot be considered plausible.
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Otherwise the LA wouldn't have run when she went to the clans for help.
Victor to Huntress and back?
Assigning a deputy ….. Nondi Steiner (just as victor used Yvonne) … or how about the Head of the Estates General whilst she is incommunicado?
No comment on Katherine going with Vlad?
No comment with regards to Francesca and her spy mission?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/04/20 03:06 AM
66.74.60.165
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More then a few posts back, you said Katherine never ordered the assassination of anyone. Trying to change it to the use of supplies to starve out the dukes isn't going to work. And according to the wiki, Skye did try to revolt during the civil war. This means the concept of them loving Katherine is false. The Grey Death Legion is the ONLY thing that kept the rebellion from going anywhere, as they tried to secure the Defiance factories.
Guess your comprehensive reading skills did not read that he ordered his guards to hang back while he went to see a place to relax, and admire the terrains beauty. They were there, just not close enough to him. Thought a sniper shot tends to negate that anyways.
One person does not run the government, unless a reagent. The ruler doesn't have absolute power like you want to believe. They have to follow the laws as well, though some get away with not doing so for a while. And you answered your own complaint. Victor handed over running the government to Yvonne. If not for Katherine's manipulation of the media, there wouldn't have been the issues their was. Also, if the general estates can run the LC without the archon, why isn't it possible for them to do so with Victor in the field? Biased or favoritism to Katherine maybe?
I don't have my books available to comment further on the Vlad issue. The printed word is necessary to keep to the print.
As for the spy, what other comment is there? It wasn't SAFE from the FWL that found the truth, it was the CC. So the basis of that subject is just one of a long line of things said that weren't accurate. If you based your judgement of faulty information, then this is why understanding the story line is difficult.
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Requiem
06/04/20 06:35 AM
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More then a few posts back, you said Katherine never ordered the assassination of anyone.
More accurately - that no one could prove.
The Free Skye Movement is a fringe group (similar to that of the Black Dragon Society) – they do not represent the whole of the population.
This means that the concept of them (a percentage of the population that cannot be determined by the limited information provided) still loves Katherine - and this is only within the Skye region.
RIP – Grey Death Legion.
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Guess your comprehensive….
Look at how a security detail operates – there are even a few good movies that a relatively accurate on this point – they can give him his space whilst at the same time secure the area – though if you keep reading you will note that he was wearing the rank of a senior officer and the sniper had no idea that he was the coordinator until he found out at a later date.
Still doesn’t change the argument that if he was where he was supposed to be (on the Capitol world) this whole fiasco would have never occurred.
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One person does not run the government, unless a reagent.
Every government, especially a regency requires a massive number of departments, each with their own specialty with a vast degree of managerial levels is required to produce the documents necessary for the executive ministerial Ministers to make their decisions and then to report that to the PM’s / Presidents executive council of her / his ministers.
A vast bureaucracy is required – then when you factor in the number of worlds most Houses Govern the size of the bureaucracy increases to an exponential amount – in all reality I do not see why there isn’t one world in each Houses realm that is totally devoted to running the remaining worlds …..
What happens when Victor is with 10th does he always have someone else running the government for him?
That would mean that for quite time before the break up f the FedCom his mother and his sister were running the government and for much of the time there-after Yvonne was in charge – which means the entire story is now open to criticism on multiple levels ….
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The general estates can run the LC without the archon, why isn't it possible for them to do so with Victor in the field? Biased or favoritism to Katherine maybe?
The cannot operate the government ….. Nondi Steiner?
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It wasn't SAFE from the FWL that found the truth, it was the CC.
Comprehension again?
Bred for War – Page 377 – “This further suggests that the Word of Blake sent the message to Sun-Tzu’s agents to create an incident to set off a war.” … and on Page 378 ….”Which means Thomas Marik isn’t Thomas Marik”.
What this intimates is that when Comstar was in charge they broke the CC cipher for their deep agents activation.
Then when Comstar broke in two and the WoB was established this knowledge was taken with them into the FWL.
The Master (aka The Real Thomas Marik) realizing what Victor had done sent the CC go code from the FWL to the FS thereby activating Francesca Jenkins – when she obtained the proof she then sent the information to the CC who then gave it to Sun-Tzu who (unbeknown to him was now the cas’s paw of the Fake Thomas Marik – and who believed his agent acted on her own) then gave the information of the death of his son and his replacement to the Fake Thomas Marik – and then we had the War, that the Fake Thomas wanted for his own ends … to move the FWL closer to the CC and more distant from the LA and the FS ….
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this is why understanding the story line is difficult.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/04/20 12:00 PM
66.74.60.165
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With Gallagher and Dehaver still alive, they can very much confirm her orders.
Which leads to why there was no trial. Katherine was able to make people believe the sky was green, and their hearts only pumped when she wanted it to. And what do you know? The proof was slowly given out to the public. Hmmm. Guess you missed that part, like more then a few facts that remove the complaint before it is written.
And with this, how would having his security detail with him would have stopped the shot? Simple questions like this need to be answered, as they shut down the whole concept of how it could happen. Also, taking trips helps keep the enemy from knowing where the leader is, reducing the chance of assassins getting to him in one specific location.
The question of if Victor has someone running the government when he is gone is showing not a single thought went into it. There is always people in charge of doing things when the leader is out of contact. It would be completely stupid not to. And as you said. There is vast legions of people running the government on a day to day routine. At the very least, they gather information that is then screened by the higher ups, until it is deemed worthy of the leaders review. There is a limit to their power, as someone in the military branch is not able to make decisions for civilian transportation, or services to everyone such as power and water. The Leader is the main one that does this, and going back to the discussion of the feudal dukes and their lord, the leader puts trust in the dukes to do things right, and not try to steal the throne.
Still not getting the point. You say Victor could not run the government while in the field, but Katherine can. The concept of both doing the same thing to have it run while they are unavailable is not sinking in. Katherine can NOT leave to do things and be out of touch if Victor can't. The reverse is true as well. If Victor can leave, so can Katherine. Some how this is not being comprehended.
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Requiem
06/04/20 03:31 PM
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With Gallagher and Dehaver still alive, they can very much confirm her orders.
Simon Gallagher - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Simon_Gallagher - 20 April 3067 – Simon shot himself in the Fox’s Den.
Richard Dehaver – EndGame Page 166 – Curaitis promised Dehaver that he would be taken to a black site and the only person he would ever talk to again for the rest of his life was Curaitis – Why, because he Dehaver promised “I can be very convincing in front of the right people.”
Thus he will never see the light of day again – and will never be seen within a court room.
Any testimony Dehaver would supply is now highly questionable as the opposition will show that any information he supplied was under duress or torture – making any testimony he supplies as illegal / suspect within a court of law or within the court of public opinion if they decide to trot him out for the media (coercion of facts!).
Thus as far as the people of the FedCom are concerned, Victors cover-up of the truth holds, as there is still no proof available to the public as to Katherine’s Guilt, when he exiled his sister by “giving her” to Clan Wolf – an enemy of the realm to which he has been fighting against for the past 17 years. (Of which has massive political blowback on its own – Victor will have to explain his decision of just handing over his sister to the enemy and the idea of using her as a sacrificial pawn to save them from a war will not be considered a viable reason – as it will definitely portray him as the person Katherine said he is!
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how would having his security detail with him would have stopped the shot?
Security detail creates an exclusion zone – utilizing technology to ensure there is no unauthorized presence within a reasonable area around the Coordinator.
Still the fact remains if the Coordinator was on the capitol world this would not have happened. Thus the fact still remains that Victor’s presence within the 10th was detrimental to the ongoing smooth working of the Government – acting as a wannabe Napoleon just creates massive issues for his realm’s vast bureaucracy.
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There is always people in charge of doing things when the leader is out of contact. It would be completely stupid not to.
Thus between 17 June 3052 (the death of their father – Hanse) and 19 June 3055 (the death of their mother – Melissa) Katherine must have been a part of the executive Government for the Federated Commonwealth.
Then between 19 June 3055 to 18 September 3057 (When Katherine uses the Emergency War Powers to secede the Lyran half of the FedCom) she must have been the ONLY person acting as regent whilst victor was in charge of the 10th.
Thus putting the whole idea of not sending an assassin to kill Victor during this stage as completely ludicrous – she did not have to use the Emergency Powers Act, all she had to do was ensure there was a second assassin to kill Victor at or around the same time as her mother’s demise and she would have been First Princess of the Federated Commonwealth. Or better yet, if she has the powers of Regent whilst victor is being Napoleon with the 10th why would she ever give it up? It would just make more sense to ensure Victor had an accident or there was suitable evidence for Katherine to find to ensure he was blamed for their mother’s assassination – thus he is automatically removed as the head of the Federated Commonwealth.
As any other scenario where she is regent of the whole of the FedComm only to just become Archon of half of the Fed Comm becomes a ludicrous idea. There is no way she would give up the power of Regent over all of the FedCom just so she could take half – thus diminishing her power in half, …. It in not within her character to accept half when she could have it all!
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…..and going back to the discussion of the feudal dukes and their lord, the leader puts trust in the dukes to do things right, and not try to steal the throne.
Yes the Dukes do have a great deal of power … and yet there a certain aspects of the Government that only its titular head can make decisions.
Consider the Powers of the following as an example of what Victor is supposed to be in control of whilst he is with the 10th ….
USA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_of_the_president_of_the_United_States
England
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmpolcon/writev/842/m2.htm
The idea that he can just remain with the 10th whist at the same time be acting as the Head of the FedCom Government is beyond ludicrous!
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Still not getting the point. You say Victor could not run the government while in the field, but Katherine can.
When and where was Katherine ever in the field?
When Kathine was absent she transferred executive powers to Nondi Steiner so I really do understand this statement.
Whereas when Victor is in the Field he too must have someone to whom he has transferred many of his powers – thus opening up a massive issue with regards to why Katherine would give up ultimate power for just half of it – it would also suggest that if Katherine took half the realm wither her that Victor would have had to call upon Yvonne way earlier than anyone ever considered – and given that she was such a basket case you have to wonder how anything in the Government was ever achieved. And if she was not such a basket case and she had been acting as Victor’s regent for a reasonable amount of time Katherine’s plan to seize control over the Fed Suns half of the FedCom now becomes a ludicrous idea as Yvonne would have just stood up to Katherine and told her to “ “ in no un-certain terms.
Thus the whole writings as provided by canon are now considered extremely questionable as the behind the scenes operations within the Government would have been of equally as important as those on the battlefield as to whom is truly running the Government – and how they took command and how they kept their power!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/05/20 11:50 AM
66.74.60.165
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What truth did Victor cover up? Katherine ordered the death of her mother and many others. Not sure how many people heard Katherine tell the two to kill VIctor, but I doubt it was just the two of them. An outburst like that was probably done outside of a secured room.
Just a simple statement in writing would work for a witness statement. Then followed by the news he committed suicide in his jail cell would function. There are other things that were found, as the statement of slowly releasing the evidence to the public suggest more.
Katherine probably did have a lot of power when Victor was in the field. But there are others that have power to make decisions in their departments. This is why there is such a thing as regulations in government. Rules that guide what to do if things happen, like the leader being out of touch. Given the war-torn IS, it is very likely some deal with the death of the leader. What happens when a CEO of a major company goes on vacation? Their second in command deals with things. And for the most part, nothing but talk let's everyone know they are gone. Unless working with them, you may not even be aware of their being gone. It is how some schemes of holding the leaders in prison while running their company.
And you left out the part where Tormano Liao was the other person she left to run the LA with Nondi. Which shows that people that aren't blood related do get put into positions of great power. Why did this happen? Katherine was in the field, not sitting at the Palace, as you suggests be the only place a leader should be, to consort with the enemy of the FC for help in killing her sibling. And yet, you don't see the ironic contradiction to saying Victor was horrible, and suggested Katherine didn't do the same or worse.
Katherine thought Victor would die in combat. I want to say she did start trying to set him up for death in combat, but don't know where or when that happened. The order she gave would have had some agents try.
Well let's see. Giving up a temporary position that you KNOW will return to the rightful ruler, in order to gain PERMANENT power in half the realm. She knew her support on the FS side was weak to begin with, and the LC side was in her favor. The law of rule was on Victor's side for this. If not for Gemini being found out, she would not have been able to rule even the LC side. And like Curaitis, some people work without the rulers input. They work for the government, not so much the butt on the throne. So Katherine did not have the ultimate power you think she did. She was bound by a lot of things, that she could not just wave her hand and change. So leaving the restricted power of the entire FC, she took full control of the LC. Or as full as any leader can.
And yet you don't understand this?
Have you ever played chess? Where you sacrifice pieces in order to gain the advantage and win?
This is pretty much what power plays are. And having to keep the peaceful façade meant not using force to do so, in Katherine's part.
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Requiem
06/05/20 03:23 PM
101.185.79.245
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What truth did Victor cover up? Katherine ordered the death of her mother and many others
Consider the perspective in which this situation is being viewed.
You can say she is guilty, considering that information you are basing your decision upon is coming from what is written within all the novels. However, if you take it from the point of view of an ordinary FedCom soldier / citizen who does not have access to this knowledge then the entire story, as written, falls apart very quickly.
He (Victor) cannot prove this in a court of law – If a soldier/civilian made this absolute statement without proof this is just hearsay / slander - If anyone says they know absolutely that she is guilty, then can I ask if that soldier / civilian’s knowledge of Katherine’s guilt is taken from the point of view that they are a part of Victor’s “Inner Circle” and that they are going along with the “Company Line” that Katherine is guilty.
Katherine is “innocent until proven guilty” in a court of law as a matter of law! – not a court of Victors personal opinion based upon his gut feeling of the situation.
Prove it in a court of law - or she is innocent! Where is the proof beyond a reasonable doubt?
By handing Katherine over to Victor’s and the entire people of the Inner Sphere enemy of 17 years without absolute proof as to Katherine’s guilt that he can bring before the people of the former FedCom all this proves is that he is attempting a cover up as to the truth!
Especially when the place where she is handed over to the Clans takes place on Arc Royal – Duke Kell has just assisted one Steiner-Davion to ascend to the Archonship –And together with his son Clan Wolf’s (in Exile) Khan, Victor and Duke kell are there when Katherine is handed to their most hated enemy – the other Clan Wolf Khan (who resides within the Occupation Zone). The optics of this situation is incredibly murky – It can be considered a cover up by Victor, Duke Kell and his son for their own personal ambition!
When all this is added together there is but one rational conclusion most would come to – Victor is covering up the truth in the absence of absolute proof and in the absence of a court case – thus is Katherine as guilty as he says she is?
There was never any evidence related to Katherine that was released to the media that could condemn her and even if there was any, given that she was never given the opportunity to refute any evidence provided you have to consider any “evidence” with a skeptical mind.
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Katherine probably did have a lot of power when Victor was in the field. But there are others that have power to make decisions in their departments.
And yet given her birth her status would be far above any head of any department! – thus given the “rules” as regent she can make orders with impunity – only Victor could countermand her orders, an only when he has returned for the battlefield.
So whilst Victor is on campaign she would have absolute power of the FedCom either with her mother or on her own depending on the year in question – so why would she ever give this up for just half the power of the Lyran state?
It is against her personality for her to ever accept this situation – she is an all or nothing kind of girl.
Thus the entire idea that she would break the FedCom into two is a complete and utter fabrication – and as such the canon situation, as given, is now highly questionable as to its accuracy.
Given Katherine’s personality and the level of power that she wields (Regent) whist Victor is on campaign against the Clans there can be but one logical conclusion – she would eliminate Victor one way or another. Katherine would ensure his removal (at this point of time) either in the court of public opinion (as his mother’s murderer) or via assassination!
This is the only logical situation at this point in time that can be considered to make sense – thus all I can say is rooky mistake that is in no way presets a story progression given the situation that they have established!
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What happens when a CEO of a major company goes on vacation?
This is why you have a board of directors and a clear line of succession – the CFO will just take over for all the day to day requirements – however given the communication system we currently have access to and that we are all on the same planet it would be very easy to return the CEO to the board room if necessary.
This is not the case when considering the scope of the Inner Sphere – the communication system is open for manipulation / spying (ComStar) – and the distances involved to return the First Price to the Capitol World is not an easy process must be taken into consideration (and even if you create a chain of Jump-ships, the time taken to get from one point to another is considerable). Thus given the inherent situational limitations of the Inner Sphere, in this situation the second (Katherine) must have absolute power to ensure the continual / efficient running of Government if Victor wants to play soldier with the 10th on the front line.
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It is how some schemes of holding the leaders in prison while running their company.
Errrr…..No, all documents must be signed off – plus it is very easy to keep tabs on the majority of the important CEOs given the level of social media currently available.
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And you left out the part where Tormano Liao was the other person she left to run the LA with Nondi.
This is why you have rules – what direct authority did Katherine give to Tormano? You can be absolutely sure of the fact that his power would be severely limited in scope and power to that of an adviser only - so his ability to influence the government is next to nil – that is unless Katherine wants to act on the advice he provides her.
Nondi on the other hand is family and Katherine zealot supporter so leaving her in charge whilst Katherine is incommunicado is a no brainer.
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you don't see the ironic contradiction to saying Victor was horrible, and suggested Katherine didn't do the same or worse.
As stated previously – Katherine has Nondi as her regent when she is incommunicado – which is a logical decision – otherwise she is on the Capitol world and in control of the government.
As for Victor – choose a point in time during his rule and work out who his second should be given that the regency is usually given to his immediate successor – that is in the absence of Victor having a child who is of mature age – this would then be transferred to his siblings – 1st Katherine …… as per their age. This is again adhering to the rules of succession – if Victor dies in combat the government can immediately pivot to the new ruler – and again, in this case this would be Katherine.
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Katherine thought Victor would die in combat.
Again, given Katherine’s personality she would never hope for an outcome she would make sure that outcome would come to pass – one way or another Katherine would have ensured that Victor would fall and she would have a back up plan if the first did not succeed. Given that she is the media’s darling – it would not be hard to believe that she would leak evidence that Victor killed his mother and allow his fall to come from a trail by media – a battlefield of Katherine’s choosing where Victor is completely inept.
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Well let's see. Giving up a temporary position that you KNOW will return to the rightful ruler, in order to gain PERMANENT power in half the realm.
Rewrite – Giving up a temporary position that will return to the rightful ruler … but if they never return ….in order to gain permanent power over the entire realm …….
With the removal of Victor she obtains it all! There is no way she would let this chance slip her by …..
Gemini has nothing to do with it.
If you are moving on the top job then you go straight for the neck
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The law of rule was on Victor's side for this.
The law will favor the survivor ….
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And like Curaitis, some people work without the rulers input.
i.e. Katherine.
No ruler of any realm can lay claim to 100% of their people’s support - there will always be dissidents / the Curaitis’ of every realm – this is why every ruler has a security detail so that they can identify any legitimate threat and remove them.
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She was bound by a lot of things, that she could not just wave her hand and change. So leaving the restricted power of the entire FC, she took full control of the LC. Or as full as any leader can.
Sorry to say but this statement cannot be considered plausible – as regent she does not have restricted power – she has absolute power – especially when Victor is removed from the equation one way or another.
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Have you ever played chess? Where you sacrifice pieces in order to gain the advantage and win? This is pretty much what power plays are. And having to keep the peaceful façade meant not using force to do so, in Katherine's part.
This is not chess …. This is the game of thrones …. And as stated she can easily take the throne and keep the peace at the same time by destroying Victor in the court of public opinion (i.e. the media!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/05/20 03:43 PM)
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ghostrider
06/05/20 11:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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Wow. The entire part of Katherine is starting to get far out there. I will say I am guilty of doing what you do a lot, and see the end of it all, with all the facts, yet missing the point in time it happened. Again, the assumption that he does not have the proof is the issue here. Putting it up in court, and having her make a mockery of the courts, then manufacturing 'evidence' to the contrary would be a start. And Katherine is a master at manipulation, he was right to avoid her court time.
Now according to you, the ruler has the ability to do what ever they want, and damned the laws. Yet now there is something wrong with that statement? As you said with Katherine taking the throne, the Victor chooses what course of action is right. But this isn't how the history plays out with this choice.
You miss the biggest part of all or nothing. Patience. She had it all with holding back on trying to take it all at once. That would have stopped her schemes before she got the LA going. The long game is where this happens, not the short game. She played on lies and misinformation for years in the LC to make Victor look bad. She did NOT try and take the power at that time, as you would suggest. She loves power, but it seems she likes the thrill of being the Fox's daughter doing it. Push boundries and see what you can get away with. But in the end, an open grasp for power ends badly for all.
Before she killed her mother, she had no real power. Melissa ran it all, and was doing so until her death. So that part is incorrect that Katherine was regent. Which is why she had to kill her mother. The FC would side with Melissa over Katherine any day. Only a small few that would gain power would side with Katherine. And they did when Melissa died.
Now this is funny. The Duke of Arc Royal assisted in Victor to become Archon. The fact that Morgan was helping Katrina run from her uncle before she took over says your argument is dead. And Victor WAS the archon before Katherine usurped it. So he only helped in returning the throne to the rightful heir. Sounds like a loyalist to me.
And still you leave out all the issues she caused to not bring to heel those that opposed her, but to destroy them. She was borderline psycho with her actions. The only thing that keeps it from being seen by all is her manipulation of the facts. So that means she is a great liar.
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ghostrider
06/05/20 11:38 PM
66.74.60.165
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You might need to actually look at feudalism. The king really isn't needed for more then getting the dukes to play nice with each other, for a common goal. It really turns out the king is a big expense that the kingdom really didn't need. Worse is when the children come, and have the I can do what I want, and you will die to make it happen. Kingdoms, like the IS houses, are set up to run without their leaders, but the leaders make it look like they are the ones running the whole thing. There isn't something they do, that can't be done by others.
The CEO is still out of contact, but said I can sign off on what is needed to run the company. Sounds familiar with things like taking over a company?
A lot of those left in charge after Melissa was killed, where those that took over when Hanse was in the field. THE SAME PEOPLE. I don't see you saying he never had a good set of people running the FS while he was out. He did have to travel a lot and be out of contact while negotiating with Katrina for the FC alliance. And what do you know. Katherine used those same people with a few exceptions when she got into power. Hmmm...
Gemini had nothing to do with Katherine pulling the LC out of the FC and basically cementing her position of power there? What books are you reading? What game are you playing? It obviously isn't the one the rest of us are playing. That was the KEY to give her the excuse to set things in motion.
Had nothing to do with it? Sheesh.
Oddly enough, the statement of Katherine not working for the government is true. She worked to destroy as much of it as needed to remove Victor, then ran her own version. Her own actions is what causes the destruction of the LC. The civil war made it possible for Vlad to even threaten the LC and live.
She had a lot of things she could not do. Even with being in charge of the entire FC, she could not do some things. This is why the civil war happened. She tried to and failed. But this is something that you will never see. Victor is not perfect, and never will be, but he did not start the civil war. Katherine did by her unbridled lust for power. As said, the civil war was going to happen with or without him. With him, there was more then just defending regions. He had the right to contradict her in all ways.
Had she really had the power to do what she wanted to, nuking Victor and claiming it was an accident while fighting the clans, or worse, suggesting Victor was about to use a nuke, and it went off would be the most likely announcement. But yet nothing happened.
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Requiem
06/06/20 07:33 AM
101.185.79.245
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Putting it up in court, and having her make a mockery of the courts, then manufacturing 'evidence' to the contrary would be a start. And Katherine is a master at manipulation, he was right to avoid her court time.
With the absence of any accountability on the part of Victor as to what he promised (Evidence as to Katherine’s Perfidy) there will forever be those who believe in Katherine’s innocence and Victor’s petulance in ridding himself of his political rival.
He has no choice but to state his case before the FedCom people
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Patience
Why? …. Is she now to be compared to a fox playing with her wounded prey? To which I have never seen in her personality
The simplicity of removing victor at this early stage enables her take in all now – which is in line with her personality and her goals. Whilst Victor is on campaign with the 10th and as regent she can politically isolate him – forcing him to abdicate, there is absolutely no point in dragging this out ….
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Before she killed her mother, she had no real power.
Not so …. Katherine is the heir-designate (that is if Victor dies without an heir (child) Katherine will be appointed ruler of the FedCom. As such this gives her a tremendous amount of political power within the FedCom.
Plus whilst Katherine stands next to Melissa it is very good optics for her to be compared to her mother and grand-mother.
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The FC would side with Melissa over Katherine any day.
If Victor is killed in combat this would be a non event!
It would only become an issue if Katherine attempted to politically isolate her bother and their mother came to Victor’s aid within the political / media environment. However the level of their mother’s assistance would depend on the charge being leveled against Victor and the quality of the ‘proof’ being used against Victor.
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Now this is funny.
When Duke Kell wen to Morgan in 3066 whom did re return with after he bent the knee and swore allegiance to as his new Archon ?
April 5th: Forces under the command of Morgan Kell and Peter Steiner-Davion secure Tharkad for the Allies.
April 24th: Peter Steiner-Davion is declared the Archon of the Lyran Alliance.
August 26th: Katherine is handed over to Vlad on Arc-Royal.
Thus, comprehension of reading once more, as was referring to Peter not Victor as at this stage Victor had abdicated in favor of both Peter and Yvonne.
Thanks for pointing this out …. Thus Victor – who does not hold any political / military / judicial power (as he has abdicated many months previously) within both the Lyran Alliance and the Federated Suns (as at August 26th) committed an illegal act as he no longer holds any legal authority when it comes to Katherine. Thus he can now be charged with committing a crime when he assist the Khan of Clan Wolf in kidnapping a citizen of the Lyran Alliance (Katherine) and taking her to the Clan Occupation Zone.
Legally Victor would have had to request Peter’s consent, as he is the Archon of the LA, prior to handing her over as he no longer has any legal authority to do so – and everyone who stood around and did nothing can be charged with abetting his criminal act.
So can we now charge Victor with aiding and abetting the Khan of Clan Wolf with kidnapping?
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I don't see you saying he never had a good set of people running the FS while he was out. He did have to travel a lot and be out of contact while negotiating with Katrina for the FC alliance. And what do you know. Katherine used those same people with a few exceptions when she got into power.
Where was this information published – Book and Pages?
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Gemini had nothing to do with Katherine pulling the LC out of the FC and basically cementing her position of power there?
Comprehension of reading once more?
As Katherine is Regent – all she needs to do is to remove victor and she in now the First Princess of the FedCom – thus Gemini no longer has any real significance!
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Oddly enough, the statement of Katherine not working for the government is true. She worked to destroy as much of it as needed to remove Victor, then ran her own version.
Unsubstantiated – proof required.
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Her own actions is what causes the destruction of the LC.
Sorry no, it was Victor who declared the start of the Civil War not Katherine.
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He had the right to contradict her in all ways.
Sorry no … he was a member of ComStar’s ComGuard at the Start of the Civil War and as such he had no righ whatsoever to contradict her as she is no the legal First Princess of the FedCom!
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Had she really had the power to do what she wanted to, nuking Victor and claiming it was an accident while fighting the clans, or worse, suggesting Victor was about to use a nuke, and it went off would be the most likely announcement.
Really? …. Sorry to say but this is not Katherine’s style at all.
She would just kill off the entire planet with a mass orbital bombardment ensuring everyone on the planet is killed off to ensure that Victor does not make if off the planet.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/06/20 12:38 PM
66.74.60.165
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Maybe the reason why he gave up the spot after the civil war was to remove that taint. Since he is not on the throne, the accusation of removing a political rival isn't there. This is a better choice then allowing Katherine to destroy the judicial system with her antics and lies. She would perjure herself in court without a doubt. And would not be punished for that.
You don't think she wasn't making him look bad before the take over? Might need to reread the fact she was doing so for years before Gemini gave her the chance to take the LC. Oh yeah. That was years of doing it. Not in her nature.
Still not getting it that with Melissa alive, Katherine was completely neutered in how much power she had. If Victor had died before his mother, Melissa would have taken back over, and countering her daughters moves. Maybe to the point of assigning her to embassadore to one of the other houses, then setting up one of the other children to take over. And with Melissa not being killed, operation Gemini would not have happened. The power play would have shifted to Katherine verse Melissa, and she would have lost.
Do you really believe that Kell's oath to Victor didn't supersede the oath to Katherine? That in a feudal society, this sort of issue happened so often, it was expected when the ruler started to show dictatorship and being a tyrant? As he had the proof she had her mother killed, that same bomb killed his wife as well. The lip service was to prevent the people under his command from being singled out.
And you are forgetting a major fact in your little analysis on the legal power Victor had. He wasn't just Archon, but the Archon-Prince. The archon is like a king, while the Archon-Prince was emperor. As in all civil wars, the victor gets to choose the losers punishment.
And this is where Victor screwed up. He allowed his caring for family to avoid executing her on the spot. It would have been his right. She usurped his power, and caused so much damage. Try thinking the entire steps thru before complaining about how things didn't go your way in the game.
Read the wiki: One of her first actions as ruler was to dismiss Ardan Sortek as Prince's Champion and Director of the Crucis March Command and replace him with the malleable Simon Gallagher. What? That meant Ardan was still in power just as she took over? Wow! So Victor did have the people in power that Hanse had to run the FS, possible the FC. And since his mother had good people in the LC government, why would he change them out, unless they stated they would not work for and with him?
The difference in the Commonwealth was that Katherine had not spent years eroding Victor's support, so she had to deal with a much stronger and more entrenched set of Victor supporters, including Duke George Hasek, though he declined to openly challenge her. Wow. She did spend years undercutting Victor in the LC portion. Hmmm.
Do you understand that if Katherine had done anything against Victor while Melissa was alive, she would have been stripped of all power by Melissa and removed from inheriting the throne? Gemini gave her the opportunity to seize the archonship in the LC. Without it, she could do nothing but wait for an opening, and that would not happen anytime soon. So her 'legal and noble' excuse to destroy the FC would not have been there.
Still not getting it with the fact that Katherine stealing the throne and the damage she did before hand, is what caused the entire mess? I could go back further and say the signing of the FC alliance did that. Without that document, none of this would have happened. The future is the odd thing. Had she waited, it was very possible that Victor would have abdicated to her, so he could play the war hero, though more likely he would have learned to run it properly.
Ah. So the deposed ruler of the FC had no right to try and reclaim the throne lost to political movements, and prevent the subjugation of those that did not agree with her taking power? The fact he was the figure head to unite all those Katherine was destroying in her attempt to keep the title for herself? Oh yeah. Anyone that isn't the ruler should not try to gain power? Then Katherine would be faulted for undercutting Victor.
Do you think it would take a full orbital nuking of a world to take out Victor? You love the backstabbing tyrannical style of Katherine, yet don't think a simple tactical nuke would be enough to take out Victor without taking out a world? Something even less radioactive like engine failure, or jump drive failure could do so. Even a simple bomb placed where he was going could have done that. Blame it on the Free Skye movement. Imagination seems to have left, but then this would negate the 'only viable' solution you came up with.
Not Katherine's style at all? Using lies to cover up the fact that she was making sure her power was secured, and removing her greatest rival at the same time? Might need to re-evaluate your concept of Katherine. This is EXACTLY the sort of thing she would do.
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Requiem
06/06/20 06:13 PM
101.185.79.245
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The facts remain …. Victor believed that his sister Katherine had Arthur assassinated in order to prevent him from becoming popular enough to be a threat to her rule. He (Victor) used this as justification for joining the gathering civil war, so Arthur’s apparent assassination is often cited as the spark that ignited the FedCom Civil War (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Arthur_Steiner-Davion)
Victor therefore turned to the only alternative he believed was left to him: to forcibly ensure Katherine’s abdication, a political decision that led directly to war. i.e. her abuses of power had become so endemic that she left him no choice but to act.
However, with the end of the Civil War his moral rants as to Katherine’s abuses of power are now completely hollow. There is not one shred of proof Victor can provide the FedCom people as to the righteousness of his cause other than the idea that his might makes right.
Victor’s agenda is atypical to the rule of law that is expected in a ruler.
Victor has clearly crossed a line and can be rightfully called a DICTATOR when he refuses to allow the judicial system and the right of law to prove that he was correct in his decision.
Fear in the judicial process / fear in even allowing the Lyran news cast facility, CMM, to interview himself and Katherine where each put their case before the people strengthens my case – Victor is now a DICTATOR.
Then to put his brother Arthur on the throne Victor abdicated – HE IS NO LONGER A PART OF THE GOVERNMENT – thus when requested by Vlad to hand over Katherine HE DOES NOT HAVE THE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO DO SO as Arthur is Archon and as such only he has the legal authority over Katherine now. Victor has therefore committed a crime in handing her over – as he is once more a member of ComGuard, he is no longer even a Lyran citizen!
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Still not getting it that with Melissa alive, Katherine was completely neutered in how much power she had.
Still not getting it that Katherine is First Princess-designate and as such she has massive power!
If Victor had fallen by the rights of succession the crown goes to Katherine not Melissa!
ONLY Victor ever needed to be assassinated / forced to abdicate to ensure Katherine’s ascendency to the throne!
Thus Operation Gemini never needed to occur.
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Do you really believe that Kell's oath to Victor didn't supersede the oath to Katherine?
An Oath is given to his current liege lord – thus during the Civil War Victor did not have his Oath – at war’s end it was given to Arthur.
Also remember that the Kells are a part of Heimdall – the loyal opposition ……
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As he had the proof she had her mother killed, that same bomb killed his wife as well.
Prove it! …. There is no proof whatsoever within the Canon story that Kell can draw upon – there is only the circumstantial evidence supplied by Victor!
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And you are forgetting a major fact in your little analysis on the legal power Victor had. He wasn't just Archon, but the Archon-Prince. The archon is like a king, while the Archon-Prince was emperor.
Victor is not the victor – Arthur is the victor as he is now Archon of the Lyran Alliance.
Victor ABDICATED his position – he is now a member of the ComGuard thus any power he did have as Archon-Price is completely meaningless!
Thus HE DOES NOT have the legal authority to determine Katherine’s fate – at this stage the ruler of the Lyran State is Arthur, and as such only he has the legal authority over Katherine.
Thus Victor and every other person in that room has committed a crime in allowing Vlad to kidnap a Lyran citizen (Katherine) by force.
quod erat demonstrandum!!!!!!!!!!
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One of her first actions as ruler was to dismiss Ardan Sortek as Prince's Champion and Director of the Crucis March Command and replace him with the malleable Simon Gallagher.
And how does this apply? – as administrations change so too does their members – some retain their positions others leave or are forced out, this is just politics.
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The difference in the Commonwealth was that Katherine had not spent years eroding Victor's support, so she had to deal with a much stronger and more entrenched set of Victor supporters, including Duke George Hasek, though he declined to openly challenge her. Wow. She did spend years undercutting Victor in the LC portion. Hmmm.
Whereas all she needed to do, circa 3050, was eliminate Victor and none of this becomes an issue.
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Do you understand that if Katherine had done anything against Victor while Melissa was alive, she would have been stripped of all power by Melissa and removed from inheriting the throne?
Again this requires proof – if Victor could never obtain any why do you believe that Melissa could especially when she is grieving the loss of her eldest son?
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Gemini gave her the opportunity to seize the archonship in the LC. Without it, she could do nothing but wait for an opening, and that would not happen anytime soon.
Again Gemini is a non issue …. remove Victor and problem solved …. Katherine is Archon-Princess.
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So her 'legal and noble' excuse to destroy the FC would not have been there.
Why would she do this when her ultimate goal is re-create the Star League with her as its absolute ruler – ie she becomes the ruler over the entire Inner Sphere?
Also Victor would never abdicate the throne – he would one day marry and then produce offspring thus putting her further away from the throne – thus she needed to act before any of this could occur.
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Do you think it would take a full orbital nuking of a world to take out Victor?
Do I have to always put the word ‘satire’ in?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/06/20 10:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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Dictator? Because he didn't give a lying pretender to the throne, a chance to send out messages to her followers, or even the state, to enact more violence? Because he KNEW she would make a complete mockery of the judicial system.
And now we are back to saying the Victor is wrong because at the time he joined the ALREADY going civil war, it was Arthur that was the straw to break the camels back.
Even though he had the evidence, why should he show any sort of mercy to someone that stole the thrones and destroyed the FC? And that she did. Her power grab caused the entire civil war, which in turned broke up the FC, and caused so many lives to be lost. She chose that action. There is nothing to suggest she tried to steer him in the right direction. She just destroyed everything she could to get at him. But then you wrote the entire story line, so most everyone else is wrong about this.
Really not looking at your posts? Melissa was not designate but the ACTUAL Archon-Princess. To be honest, she never stepped down, so that entire rant is worthless. Melissa was still in charge. Or did you suddenly forget that?
Loyal opposition to the rulers excess to abuse the people of the state. Sounds like he did the right thing in opposing Katherine. So yes. It was the right thing to do.
Is that why Morgan had determined Victor was innocent before any evidence was presented? Oh yeah. He just wanted to make sure Katherine didn't rule for the hell of it. Gotcha.
Abdicated a position that was taken from him? Saying he wasn't the victor since he doesn't rule the LC, but then he doesn't rule the FS either. That was NEVER his intention. So politics is not the reason he joined the civil war. Which started before he got involved. And that fact will not change in the canon line, no matter how badly you want to change it.
I guess you missed the part where the others with him discussed this before she was going to be locked away. But that seems typical of the complaints. Lacking all the facts, and just reading what you want it to say, not as it is written.
So far, more then a few statements were half truths, or outright fictional compared to what is actually written.
You asked for proof that the rulers used people already in power to run things while they were not present. Ardan was running things with Hanse, and was kept in his position to make decisions after Hanse died. Ardan had a lot of experience in what he did, and Victor used that to keep the FS and FC running while he was out.
She tried to remove Victor and failed. And Melissa would have found more evidence of Katherine's attack, as there is a huge difference in the people around that would know what went down. The military would get to the bottom of it, and her prints would be found.
Katherine originally believed she would become first lord with just the LA behind her. When Victor crushed that, by voting in Sun Tzo, she made it her life's goal to remove him from power. So she did not originally think of becoming archon-princess. That opportunity came up later. The fact Victor KNEW he needed more training to become an effective ruler, is part of why he tapped the others to deal with the FC while he went to war. Had Melissa not been killed, she would very well have taught him what he needed to know. At the time, Melissa was more of a threat then even the clans to her rise in power. THAT is why she had to be removed. Don't like that fact, well then write your own story moving away from canon, as you seem to suggest canon is wrong because you don't like the way it turned out.
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Requiem
06/07/20 08:33 AM
101.185.79.245
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Once again consider the perspective in which this situation is being viewed. Consider here the information you are basing your decision upon is coming from - what is written within all the novels and from the point of view of an ordinary FedCom soldier / citizen who does not have access to this knowledge.
Then consider what was written –
“Victor has clearly crossed a line and can be rightfully called a DICTATOR when he refuses to allow the judicial system and the right of law to prove that he was correct in his decision.
Fear in the judicial process / fear in even allowing the Lyran news cast facility, CMM, to interview himself and Katherine where each put their case before the people strengthens my case – Victor is now a DICTATOR.”
The imposition of his will upon the entire judicial system as well as imposing his belief that he knows what is best for the FedCom people by denying them access to any evidence regarding Katherine’s illegal assassination of both her bother and mother can only be described as DICTITORIAL.
In the absence of proof and in addition to illegal action in allowing Katherine to be kidnapped by Clan Wolf he has proven once and for he is unworthy of his position.
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Even though he had the evidence
Again there is no definitive evidence – on circumstance and conjecture!
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Melissa was not designate but the ACTUAL Archon-Princess. To be honest, she never stepped down, so that entire rant is worthless.
What did she offer Victor and what did he refuse with the entire family’s knowledge – did she or didn’t she offer Victor the throne? And even if she did not step down did not Victor take over his fater’s position as being in control of the entire FedCom Military from that point on?
Worthless? …. Hardly.
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Is that why Morgan had determined Victor was innocent before any evidence was presented? Oh yeah. He just wanted to make sure Katherine didn't rule for the hell of it.
Time to go back and re read the period regarding the post explosion – Katherine nursed the injured kell back to health and it was not unit Victor had a quiet word with him did he swap allegiances to Victor – so from looking outside in how can the Kells know that Victor is not playing them false in an effort to regain the LA and he is using them as his cat’s paw against Katherine?
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Abdicated a position that was taken from him?
Comprehension of reading once more!
Mother dead – Victor ruling – Katherine initiated plan to paint him as the bomber – CMM and all FedCom Media pick up on the story – Victor is now painted as the Balck Prince – Katherine demands his abdication – Victor has no choice but to give her the throne considering the people and the military have turned against him.
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I guess you missed the part where the others with him discussed this before she was going to be locked away.
All this statement proves that everyone within the room were co-conspirators to a crime – The Legal authority resides with Auther not Victor (at this stage post civil war) he has abdicated and he has resumed his position with the ComGuard – Victor does NOT have the legal authority to hand over a Lyran citizen to that of the Khan of Clan Wolf – and by doing so Victor has now committed an Illegal Act.
Ardan Sortek was the Prince’s Champion – this just makes him XO of the FedCom Military so when Hanse dies and Victor takes over this would have been considered to be quite a rational and normal decision for Victor.
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She tried to remove Victor and failed. And Melissa would have found more evidence of Katherine's attack, as there is a huge difference in the people around that would know what went down.
Personal supposition and conjecture!
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The military would get to the bottom of it, and her prints would be found.
Just like the military were able to find out about her mother’s assassination? If they could not do it then, there is little hope they will in this scenario.
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Had Melissa not been killed, she would very well have taught him what he needed to know.
Highly doubtful as this would require Victor leaving his military life with the 10th and being at court for an extremely long period of time. Victor has never shown that he can stay out of a Mech cockpit for any length of time!
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At the time, Melissa was more of a threat then even the clans to her rise in power.
Completely disagree …. Only Victor is a threat, and with his elimination nothing can stop her!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/07/20 01:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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The judicial system didn't appoint Katherine as ruler over the FC. She seized the power in the LC, then destroyed the Regent in the FS. Victor was the ruler. Plain and simple. Katherine was not. So if the judicial system was used, Katherine would have been removed from office long before the civil war. So courts are not on your side.
Rule of law.
Plus, as you said, the victor decides what is right. Katherine lost her power in the FC, so when Vlad came for her, she gladly went with him, as she knew she could manipulate him. This was so much better then jail. Oh yeah. This is a feudal society, so the 'king' does not have to have a trial or court. They can dispense the punishment without any need to let the masses know the exact reasons. just that they were traitors to the crown, even if they were family of the ruler. History does not support your side here.
Where is the proof he didn't have any? Just one persons concept? You are trying to argue that the people that WROTE the story, are wrong in saying he had the proof but didn't use it. Sorry, but this goes to the story righters. The conspiracy theory put forth is not supported by the people writing the story, so have to say in canon, Victor had the proof. For that alt, it could fly, but not canon.
But then the alt should not have even progressed to the FC being made, if following the logic.
Also, facial recognition would have caught the assassin a lot sooner, as the intel department would have had that sent out to ALL ports that are connected to the HPG, and they would in turn send it to the ones that weren't.
What does Victor becoming General of the Armies have to do with the fact Melissa was still in control of the FC? It would be almost required Victor, the heir to the throne, would lead the military. That is part of tradition in the FS, and for the most part, the LC. It does not negate the fact Melissa was the Archon-princess. Katherine had to bow to Melissa on all accounts. So this point is fact. The argument is moot.
Funny. You just answered that Morgan knew Katherine killed her mother and his wife, before the proof was given. He had already found out the truth, which is how he knew Victor was NOT lying to him. He didn't investigate it afterwards. He knew before Victor showed him conformation of what he had found out.
Comprehensive reading has again proven the facts as false. The people and military have not turned on the prince. Some will believe the rumors while others will believe it wasn't him. Nondi would be, and was, blinded by her dislike of Victor. But that would not start a military coup. The massive uprising would not be a much as you want to believe, and in the FS, would be far less then you could think. So no. He would not abdicate just because you want him to. There were more then a few past IS rulers that continued in office while something like this was going on. Most were DC leaders. They were a bit brutal in removing that idea, which I doubt Victor would stoop to using. Katherine might, once the rumors turned to her being the one to order it. Manipulation works in both directions. It just takes Victor to break from trying to be honest about everything. And even then, the people working for him could do it without him being part of it.
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ghostrider
06/07/20 02:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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Katherine was a prisoner of war. She had no more rights to be considered a citizen of the LC/FC. She should have been executed the moment she was taken into captivity, even if Victor ordered her to remain unharmed. She destroyed so many lives in her greed, that more then a few in the rebellion where there because of her orders that destroyed their entire lives, with a lot being their families. With history, it was known that the loser in a family fight was sold to foreign people. So giving her away, isn't unknown in feudal societies. Marrying off relatives is the same thing, only seen as more legal.
Ardan was used as an example. When a new ruler comes in, the career people remain in position, otherwise you destroy the ability to rule. Some retire, but train their replacements. So the entire concept of Victor not having good people in position to run the government while in the field is false. If it was true that he didn't, the entire FC would have rose up against him without Katherine's prodding. Concentrated weakness is a good example of this.
The entire argument of Victor being a horrible ruler is supposition and conjecture. One based on your personal feeling that the people who made the storyline were wrong, and are desperately trying to make it sound like they were wrong. I don't agree with everything canon had or done, but in the end, it is their story. If you don't like it, then don't support it.
OK. Why would the military investigate Melissa's assassination? That would be intel's job. The military would be involved in Victor's death, as it would be done while he was on duty. They have a stricter policy of keeping records on what is going then normal. Security would have all people under surveillance, which include camera's watching all directions. They would know who went in and when they came out. The party Melissa was at, seemed to have failed in that.
Maybe the fact that Hanse was alive, gave him the opportunity to be in the cockpit so much. With his death, he was doing what he could to save the FC, and once the treaty was in place, he would have settled down to learn more. Or at least realize he had to do the rest of the job. And if he couldn't do it, would have relied on his father's, and then mother's advisors on how to proceed with things. Pretty much like he already did while Hanse was alive. But for some reason, you believe that every last thing under the sun requires his attention. If that were true, the leaders would never have time for even sleeping, considering how many worlds each nation has in it. Each one having their own problems and issues. There is just not enough time in the day for the ruler to even read, much less address the concerns.
Still not going to so the truth and logic to the fact that Melissa was the biggest threat to Katherine, I see. The fact that Victor knew very little about being sneaky with manipulating others, nor did he seem to care about the people, verses Melissa knowing how to deal with people, and knew how the government works, so back door politics were better known to her. Which is more of a threat to Katherine at the time? Victor will hang himself if what you want to believe is true. And she would make sure that happened. No need for the people to know it, as it leads to... a civil war?
So your hatred for Victor has clouded your entire view of the game.
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Requiem
06/07/20 07:08 PM
101.185.79.245
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Plain and simple.
Sorry but no it is not …. The legal document that created the FedCom and ensured the arranged marriage between Hanse and Melissa …. has an emergency powers clause, in that in the event of an unspecified emergency either the LC or the FS can dissolve the FedCom Union. As the Estates General appoints the Leaders of the Lyran realm – once the Estates General appointed Katherine as Archon she is quite within her legal remit to dissolve the FedCom and take command of the Lyran Half and is completely legal.
Once again look at the dates of Arthur becoming Archon and that of Katherine being given to Vlad – as this occurred after Arthur became Archon – Victor has abdicated! – He is once more a citizen of ComStar as Commander of the ComGuard – he has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY to hand Katherine over and as such by handing her over he and everyone who was within the room when he did so is now guilty of aiding and abetting the Kidnapping of a Lyran citizen (Katherine).
During the Civil War Victor made promises to the people of the FedCom as to proving Katherine’s guilt regarding the death of their Mother and their Brother – by refusing to provide this evidence (as he was unable to ever obtain this evidence) – proves that he is a dictator in his political approach – he is telling the people of the FedCom that he is ruling by might alone!
By handing over Katherine without a trial – all this is doing is demonstrating his will in removing his political enemy, in the absence of any proof whatsoever! Victor is completely in the wrong at this point in time.
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This is a feudal society, so the 'king' does not have to have a trial or court.
The IS society is similar to that of England however the Queen and the Nobility still rule – however the courts and the parliamentary government still exist!
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They can dispense the punishment without any need to let the masses know the exact reasons.
In the DC and the CC – anywhere else no they can-not!
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History does not support your side here.
Prove it!
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Victor had the proof
Prove it!
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facial recognition would have caught the assassin a lot sooner
https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/security/g28719483/trick-surveillance-systems/
… and this is just currently – 1000 years into the future who know what else there should be available.
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What does Victor becoming General of the Armies have to do with the fact Melissa was still in control of the FC?
Understanding the responsibility of those in command.
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Katherine had to bow to Melissa on all accounts.
Only as long as Victor is alive / has the support of the FedCom people – with Victor removed how long will it take before she gives up the throne for Katherine? She has already offered the throne to Victor (who refused) so the premise stands.
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You just answered that Morgan knew Katherine killed her mother and his wife
Problems with comprehension of reading? He believed Katherine was innocent until Victor convinced him otherwise based upon the circumstantial and speculative evidence that he had obtained – ‘evidence’ that would never be able to prove Katherine’s guilt in a court of law!
Again there is no proof that can convict Katherine in a court of Law – there is only circumstantial and speculative evidence that may or may not prove a payment for the sale of land – there is no proof as to what the payment was really for – there is no smoking gun that proves Katherine’s absolute guilt!
Again, consider the perspective in which this situation is being viewed. With all the knowledge of the novels or as an average citizen on the street.
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He would not abdicate just because you want him to.
And yet the people of the Lyran state no longer had any faith in victor – so they accepted Katherine.
And yet Yvonne had no longer any faith in herself – so they accepted Katherine once more – rather than hang on for a couple more months for Victor to return.
In both cases the people of the FedCom allowed Katherine to take power – they had no faith in Victor – he is thus forced to abdicate when the people no longer have faith in him.
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Katherine was a prisoner of war.
And as such she still has rights - https://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/TreatmentOfPrisonersOfWar.aspx
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So the entire concept of Victor not having good people in position to run the government while in the field is false.
Victor may have good people in place – but that does not distract from the fact that the government requires the Head of the Government to make decisions, attend meetings, and sigh documents on a daily basis to keep the government moving forward – This cannot be done whilst being on active duty!
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If it was true that he didn't, the entire FC would have rose up against him without Katherine's prodding.
Where were these ‘good people’ when Yvonne just handed over the realm to Katherine?
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The entire argument of Victor being a horrible ruler is supposition and conjecture.
Sorry but I have proven using facts that he is an incompetent ruler – go back and re-read what was pointed out.
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Why would the military investigate Melissa's assassination? That would be intel's job.
Then why assert this above?
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There is just not enough time in the day for the ruler to even read, much less address the concerns.
The Government must be efficient and accurate – requiring everyone to perform to their best – Hanse understood this – Victor did not.
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Still not going to so the truth and logic to the fact that Melissa was the biggest threat to Katherine
Without Victor Melissa is not a threat.
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So your hatred for Victor has clouded your entire view of the game.
Vice versa?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/07/20 08:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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Since the birth of the children of Melissa and Hanse, which one has the right to pull either the LC or FS out of the FC? Victor was the ruler of both. Katherine took her position of regent and seized the throne for her own purposes. She did not do it for the people of the LC. Which goes back to, did she have the right to remove the LC?
The fact Victor gave up the archonship to Arthur, does not negate the fact that he still had the authority to remove Katherine. I believe he was one of those that voted to just contain Katherine, as the meeting of all at Katherine's prison had already agreed upon that course of action, as the place had to be built. So it wasn't just done right then and there. So no. It was decided when she gave up, not when they were at the prison. Also, Victor would have had to resign Comstar when he got involved in the civil war. To continue his position would have gotten Comstar involved in a domestic dispute. Something they 'agreed' upon not to do in the formation of it. So this theory is debunked.
Exist and can be bypassed is two different things. There are things the courts can not deal with in a feudal society. And ANY court that was to try the case would have had issues of bias for either side. So no. A court trial could not happen, even if it was to go to court. No judges that would not recuse themselves for bias existed. The government does NOT have to deal with telling their people why they tried to assassinate someone. Deny everything is SOP for rulers. Victor screwed up by admitting it.
You're the one that posts about history, so you already know the cases of people being thrown in jail and said to be traitors, and no one had to know the reason why. It happened through out history, and continued into the future. And with this, you said that the victor and ruler did not have to answer to anyone. Oh yeah. That was when you said Katherine didn't.
And again. Prove that Victor didn't have the proof. The print said he did. So go back and read the real words in the books not the fantasy ones you desperately want to have.
Ardan was left as the prince's champion in the FS. Nondi continued for the LC. Given the fact he learned from his parents, he definitely knew the responsibilities of command. Part of why he kept in the field. The thought that he would not send someone else to do something he wouldn't was a motivative point.
Again, supposition that isn't supported. The LC did have issues with Victor, but the majority did not. For most, they would see it as a way to neuter the FWL. Though with Katherine's manipulation, that did not come out like it should have. And again. If it was even a majority of the people, then the civil war would not have had LYRAN'S joining the cause like they did.
And what do the laws say in the 3000's? The fact that Katherine is part of the ruling house, and was deposed in a civil war. Funny how the people on worlds they removed Katherine's troops did not rise up in rebellion as soon as those forces left. That suggests they didn't side with Katherine. And more then a few unit went completely neutral, which Katherine forced to side with Victor when she ordered those units destroyed. To suggest Nondi ordered it would have caused a split between them.
Yet again, you do not seem to see that the government had people to make decisions, and the head ruler really isn't needed beyond appearances. Otherwise, they would falter when the leader died, and the next in line was being moved into position. Which is interesting as you say the General Estates can say Katherine can be archon, but say they can't put Adam in that position.
Yvonne believe Katherine over those advisors. That was her downfall. And even with that, it wasn't so much she was a bad leader, but that the implications that she wasn't doing things right, caused Yvonne's downfall. The FS was still doing great, just the media portraited her as incompetent.
The fact that you will say anything to condemn Victor leads to your views. Victor had issues, but wasn't the horrible ruler you make him out to be. From what I have seen in the books, I agree with most of the outcome. I knew before reading it, Katherine killed Melissa, as she was the main one to gain anything from it. Ryan didn't stand as much to gain and Katherine did. And given her self absorbtion, that made it even more likely. Only after Melissa died, did he have to deal with the entire FC. And when he did, there was no real issues with the FC beyond Katherine's plan to support your views.
The military would have to investigate anything that happened to Victor while on duty. Melissa was not part of that, so they were not obligated to investigate the bombing. Not sure why this has to even be said, as it is very obvious.
Those good people that refused to let Katherine take power over the FC did rise up. And she started the tyrannical process of putting them down, as you said she had the right to do. She resorted to using the military and her position to hurt those that said she was not the ruler, and were going to wait until Victor got back. This is obvious as well.
Victor had enough faith in the people running the government to see he was not needed at HQ. Not sure why this isn't obvious as well. Which goes back to the statement of the ruler really not being needed to run things. They are just the showpiece of it.
The ruling leader was not a threat to the one that wanted to take it? Katherine knew Victor would screw up with something, where she could do nothing to Melissa. It would be foolish to think Katherine did not try to persuade her mother to give her the throne. The fact she would not, should say she is far more of a threat then Katherine was.
My dislike of what Katherine did to the FC does not cloud my view like you want to think. Victor was not a saint in any case, but he was not the monster you say he was. He did less to hurt the FC, then Katherine was.
And if you think Victor would not give up being in the front line, Katherine could very well use that to convince him to abdicate peacefully. But that was not going to happen in the story.
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Requiem
06/08/20 06:44 AM
101.185.79.245
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She did not do it for the people of the LC.
The Lyran people would argue the point, as she was acting as the peacemaker keeping the Lyran state out of an immoral war started by an immoral leader (Victor).
…. and yes she does have the right as the Estates General ratified her position as Archon …
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The fact Victor gave up the archonship to Arthur, does not negate the fact that he still had the authority to remove Katherine.
This is completely in error … once abdicated he has NO POWER whatsoever – what power he did have has been transferred to Arthur. Thus in allowing Vlad to take Katherine he has committed a crime against the Lyran state.
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Victor would have had to resign Comstar when he got involved in the civil war.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Victor_Steiner-Davion
“In order to take the reins of the rebellion, and in light of the geo-political situation, Victor temporarily set aside his role as Precentor Martial in 3063.”
So this theory stands.
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There are things the courts can not deal with in a feudal society
Where is this written when it specifically relates to the FA and the LC courts? Book and Page Number Please.
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The government does NOT have to deal with telling their people why they tried to assassinate someone. Deny everything is SOP for rulers. Victor screwed up by admitting it.
Please once again Book and Page number.
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so you already know the cases of people being thrown in jail and said to be traitors, and no one had to know the reason why.
Once more Book and Page number as I have no knowledge of anyone undergoing this situation.
Prove that Victor didn't have the proof
Page 262-263 Endgame
Katherine – “It doesn’t matter what you want to believe, Yvonne, my charities and accomplishments will be made evident at whatever kind of trial you arrange. And I’tt be certain to show that Victor’s important evidence is nothing more than a twisted fabrication constructed to justify his armed aggression …..”
Victor – after informing Katherine that Dehaver was dead …someone smuggled poison to him …. “His (Dehaver) confession only supports the rest of the evidence we gathered, and it’s enough to be shown around, quietly and discreetly, to convice any of your remaining supporters that they really are better off forgetting you”
Problem remains evidence held in secret that cannot be ratified and investigated for its accuract cannot be considered to be evidence by the people!
As stated previously you need to consider this from the point of view of the average citizen and not from the point of view as being a part of Victor’s inner circle.
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Given the fact he learned from his parents, he definitely knew the responsibilities of command. Part of why he kept in the field.
If he understood anything about command he would have removed himself from the 10th and returned to the Capitol World.
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The LC did have issues with Victor, but the majority did not.
Then why did they fight so hard against Victor and his supporters during the Civil War.
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Funny how the people on worlds they removed Katherine's troops did not rise up in rebellion as soon as those forces left.
Funny how Victor had to use Warship to transfer her to Arc Royal and in more than one case had to use force to keep Katherine’s forces at bay. Endgame – Page 267
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Yet again, you do not seem to see that the government had people to make decisions, and the head ruler really isn't needed beyond appearances.
Show me any government where this occurs? And show me any IS leader that sits back and allows their government to do the work for them.
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Which is interesting as you say the General Estates can say Katherine can be archon, but say they can't put Adam in that position.
Please re-read everything written by me regarding how the rules of succession work.
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the media portraited her as incompetent.
And the media were proved correct when she did give up the throne to Katherine.
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And she started the tyrannical process of putting them down, as you said she had the right to do.
So allowing a military to mutiny is now allowable?
And the Legal ruler at that time (Katherine) is not allowed to restore law and order when they no longer obey the chain of command?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/08/20 12:47 PM
66.74.60.165
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Immoral leader? You mean consorting with one of the clans was considered great? Consorting with Sun Tzu is considered proper? You praise Comstar for replacing Thomas, because they didn't get prosecuted, but Victor is the demon because he did? Intel agents replace people for missions, sometimes they kill the person they replace. I hate that fact, but for some people, it is required to remove them from life. People like terrorists comes to mind here.
Katherine took the FS as well. It wasn't just about the LC. Victor had the right of winning, like you said about Katherine taking the FC thru manipulation and lies, to do as he thought was right. You want to say he had no power to join the rebellion, so the winning leader of the rebellion can do things like exile rulers. His biggest thing was he was the heir to the nation she ran. Best look at France with their revolts. I believe the term 'off with their head' was very common when rebels won. So yet again, history does not support your claims.
Where in history does it say the courts can deal with everything? Where are the courts when you want to send in an assassin to take out someone? Where is that information located in the game? How about diverting ship to punish those that peacefully or thru the leader of their region, refuse to follow a usurper? The General Estates backed Katherine not for making the LC better, but to line their pockets and gain more power. That is called an injustice of the courts. So you want lawyer talk, there you go. Intent is very much a part of trials.
Yet again, history of the world is against you. The only time a leader does anything like saying they ordered an assassination is if they get caught. There are a few exceptions with this. The civil war had it's own reasons that everyone knew. And Katherine broke the law by usurping the FS portion is a fact. The LC is a little more muddled, since the clause in the alliance paperwork. Which is why Melissa had to die. She would not have pulled the LC out of the alliance, as it was supposed to help all. And without the FS portion, the LC would have fallen to the clans much faster. The 4th war and 3039 war probably would not have been as large in scope, if they even happened.
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ghostrider
06/08/20 01:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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You mean blackmail is something those that supported Katherine want out in the public? Where their abuse of their position would destroy their lives, would be something those that supported Katherine would love to see? The fact that evidence is tied to them, and they go down, do you think they won't plea bargain, and spill their guts, only supporting and improving the evidence to date? Or them finding out Katherine was about to remove them as a threat to her power? Guess you really don't know how things work. If he did just release the information, it could very well have destroyed any chance of either nation surviving the purge. Again, feudalism's history at work.
Oh yeah. The evidence can be investigated. Part of why releasing it slowly to others happens. They can find out for themselves the truth. And as said before, Katherine would make a complete mockery of the judicial system, if they could even find impartial judges to try the case.
Again. Melissa was running the FC. Why would he need to return as long as she was? Still not answering the base of the question. He didn't have to. When she died, he was on the way to the clan homeworlds. And his decision there? To be like those under his command. They didn't get to go home because of the death of a family member, so he kept with the lead by example motto.
Fight so hard? Only the military really fought Victor. Again. No rebellions on worlds they took. Some joined him without a fight. More then a few units stayed neutral in the fight. So again. Where was the popular support wave that rose up to crush the rebellion?
The General Estates would have to decide things if the entire direct blood line of the rulers was wiped out. Adam was at least related to that. Not changing over to a new blood line. As Peter choose the successor so he could retire, they honored his request. I did not see anything where those closer to the line of succession stood up and demanded they be crowned. So for the canon story, this view is based on information that isn't there.
The media proved correct that Yvonne was incompetent? The FS ran fine with her at the head. The only issues that cropped up were fabrications and spun truths that Katherine sponsored. Again. Katherine attacking her own family in order to gain power for herself. No responsibility for family ties, as you said.
Ordering the full destruction of unit, sometimes without even ordering them to stand down is the right way to handle it? And this was a usurper doing the ordering. Those feeling like they are being loyal to the real leader, or the nation, not the current butt on the throne, had a right to say they would not abandon their posts. I did not see anywhere, that she went thru the chain of command. She just ordered them directly. Which violates the entire chain concept. How would they know it wasn't a ploy by the enemy?
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Requiem
06/08/20 07:48 PM
101.185.79.245
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Immoral leader?
As stated above Victor - In Totality what else could you call a leader who allows a child to die so far removed from his family and then replaces him with a substitute – from the Lyran perspective I believe the description of immoral is getting off light …..
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You praise Comstar for replacing Thomas
Sorry I have never done this …. What I did say was that the idea of Thomas surviving a large explosive within a heavily bricked building (with no windows and one door) as impossible – an explosion of this type, and in a room of this type, should have turned him into pink mist!
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I hate that fact, but for some people, it is required to remove them from life. People like terrorists comes to mind here.
A child who has done no wrong cannot be compared with a terrorist!
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Katherine took the FS as well. It wasn't just about the LC.
FACT – (Remember take this from the point of view of the average citizen not from the point of view of reading the novels)
Yvonne offered the throne to Katherine when she believed she was incompetent for the job – she lost trust of the community – she could not even hold onto the position for a few more months until Victor returned.
Victor however came with a military force at his back.
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the winning leader of the rebellion can do things like exile rulers
Correct – the winning leaders can impose penalties upon the looser – just remember who the winners are FS – Yvonne and LA – Arthur – in both cases Victor has abdicated his right to rule.
Thus Victor DOES NOT have the right to impose any penalty upon Katherine!
As for the French Revolution – 1789 to 1790 – they overthrew the monarchy and took the government – so this cannot be compared with FedCom civil war ….
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Where in history does it say the courts can deal with everything?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States
… all issues that require a final arbiter of the law.
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The General Estates backed Katherine not for making the LC better, but to line their pockets and gain more power.
Supposition …. Prove it – Book and Page Number.
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And Katherine broke the law by usurping the FS portion is a fact.
Supposition again …. Fact is Yvonne gave her the throne therefore it is LEGAL.
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Which is why Melissa had to die.
Logic says otherwise …. Only Victor has to be removed and Katherine as next in line by the rules of succession becomes First Archon – Princess over the FedCom.
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The 4th war and 3039 war probably would not have been as large in scope, if they even happened
How can something that happened in the distant future affect past events – does someone have a time machine? (satire)
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You mean blackmail is something those that supported Katherine want out in the public?
Again …. Prove it – Book and Page Number.
The LA is acting within a Machiavellian / Democratic system - when has graft ever not been part of the system when large monetary projects have been on the offer?
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Which is why Melissa had to die. She would not have pulled the LC out of the alliance, as it was supposed to help all.
Personal opinion?
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The evidence can be investigated.
Yes it can …. The problem is that all of Victors so called evidence is circumstantial – none of t can be tied back to Katherine as per the rules of law …. And by not allowing the all of the FedCom people to vet his evidence proves that he is committing a cover up!
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if they could even find impartial judges to try the case.
This is why they are appointed to these positions.
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Melissa was running the FC. Why would he need to return as long as she was?
Died – 19 June 3055 – so why would Victor purposefully make his throne and the FedCom vulnerable from this point forward by remaining with the 10th?
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Fight so hard? Only the military really fought Victor.
Keep reading … some of those battles were over logistics supplies … thus he had to take what he needed as the civilian CEOs and their corporations were also against him … thus the only way he could keep his rebellion going was to steal them!
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The General Estates would have to decide things if the entire direct blood line of the rulers was wiped out. Adam was at least related to that.
The entire line was not wiped out – Arthur had a son! Thus when Arthur is no longer Archon it is supposed to go to his son!
I have even supplied a link to the family tree and thus the line of succession.
Adam was somewhere in the 100’s to be considered for the position of Archon
This is where TPTB staged a coup on the LA to allow Adam to become the next Archon – it is a completely illegal move!
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The media proved correct that Yvonne was incompetent? The FS ran fine with her at the head.
Then why did Yvonne give the throne to Katherine? Why did her advisers allow her go through with this? Why didn’t her Dukes try to convince her that this was wrong? ….. as a leader she is a basket case!
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Ordering the full destruction of unit, sometimes without even ordering them to stand down is the right way to handle it? And this was a usurper doing the ordering.
1st These units disobeyed the Chain of Command – and in may cases they opened fire first against their fellow units on world (who support Katherine) and who were sent there to replace them.
Thus they are in the wrong – they have mutinied – they did not stand down – they broke the law!
Thus Katherine, as the commanding officer of the FedCom Military, is within her right to demand they stand down by force if necessary!
Again showing a personal view as being a part of the Victor camp and not as an average citizen on the side line?
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Those feeling like they are being loyal to the real leader, or the nation, not the current butt on the throne, had a right to say they would not abandon their posts.
They MUST obey the Chain of Command – they CANNOT make up their own orders just because they believe they are in the right.
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I did not see anywhere, that she went thru the chain of command. She just ordered them directly
As First Archon-Princess she has the highest rank within all the military thus yes she can give orders – and no this does not violate the chain of command it reinforces the chain of command –
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How would they know it wasn't a ploy by the enemy?
Verification codes.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/08/20 07:58 PM)
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