Dermenore
06/09/20 02:10 PM
92.169.144.247
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Hello people
I like a lot the fact that some factions have iconic mech, like the Enforcer for The Federated Suns or the Atlas....eh...Commando, at the Lyran Commonwealth main scout. I think that give factions more characteristic and made them more alive.
Unfortunately, that kind of information is dispersed in the Wiki. I wanted to create a new article that references that. But I am a newcomer in the franchise (just play some videogames). So I ask for your help. If you can tell me if a mech is associated with a faction, that would be great. If you have a reference, that would be better (and I could maybe create this new article !).
So, to be precise, the criteria are:
a mech must be associated with a faction. If several factions use this mech (like the Stalker, or Locust, I think), that doesn't count.
we stay in the period of the 3e successions war for start. I think we can include the 4e wars because they are no big technological change yet (I think?).
Here are the emblematic mechs I already know by the wiki(Tell me if I am wrong) :
(Some edits made)
The Federated Suns:
- Javelin
- Valkyrie
- Enforcer
- Centurion
- Rifleman
- Jagermech
- Victor
Draconis Combine:
- Jenner
- Panther
- Dragon
- Charger
Free World League:
- Hermes II
- Wolverine
- Orion
- Awesome
Capellan Confederation:
- Urbanmech
- Vindicator
Lyran Commonwealth:
- Commando
- Zeus
Edited by Dermenore (06/11/20 03:36 PM)
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Frabby
06/09/20 06:17 PM
91.39.164.19
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You might want to check out Xotl's Faction Assignment and Rarity Tables:
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/index.php?title=Faction_Assignment_%26_Rarity_Tables&_Rarity_Tables=
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Dermenore
06/10/20 04:29 PM
92.169.144.247
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Thanks a lot! It's a really impressive document, even if he could use a table of contents. I can use it to find which mechs are more use by the factions and edit my first post.
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ghostrider
06/11/20 02:20 AM
66.74.60.165
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The cataphract was not invented until after the 4th war.
The urbanmech was widely used by the CC.
The Battlemaster seemed to be a Davion mech, though not as much.
The Awesome was a FWL design, which was their main assault mech. The Spider seemed to be another ones used a lot in the FWL, though not sure if it was considered a staple.
The Lyrans used the Zeus.
Though I am sure the post telling you a good source is much better then I am.
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Dermenore
06/11/20 03:57 PM
92.169.144.247
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Thanks for your help Ghostrider!
You are right for the Zeus. I fill idiot to forgot it. Awesome is noted in the wiki as an FWL mech, which surprises me a little because the Random Assignment & Rarity Tables (RAT) give it to a lot of faction. Maybe it is a very common mech but more common in the FWL?
The Urbanmech is also noted as a Capellan mech but it's not precise if it was used in the front line before the 4e Succession Wars. I think we still can say it's associated with the Confederation.
For the Spider, wiki said he was nearly extinct a long time, then the FWL start to produce it again. But it's not precise when. The RAT makes the mech become more popular in the 3039 table so I think the new factory was built after the Successions Wars.
About the Cataphract, I think you made a little mistake. The mech was invented before the 4e succession wars (the wiki said he start production in 3025). But he precise too that the mech didn't see mass production before the 4e succession wars and then the factory was taken by the Suns. So...I can't say it's a representative mech.
For the Battlemaster, it's is said that all the Houses use the mech, with most use by Steiner and Marik.
The RAT helps me find other mechs I forget: Valkyrie, Centurion, Jagermech, Rifleman for The Federated Suns. Dragon and Charger for The Draconis Kuritas. Hermes II, Wolverine, and Orion for the Free World League.
It feels less empty now. Except for the Steiner and Liao. Did someone know if there are some mechs use a lot by then that I forgot? The RAT attributes them (in large use) only mech already used by almost all factions (Wasp, Locust, Phoenix Hawk, Griffin, Crusader...).
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Wick
06/24/20 02:35 PM
173.247.25.195
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"Most used" and "associated with a (single) faction" are not the same thing. As you pointed out Locusts (and Wasp and Stingers) are everywhere, but not overly related to any one faction. (Though the periphery, especially the Outworlds Alliance would be heavily dependent on those three.) I assume you mean much more common in one faction than another. Javelins for example are a late Star League era design, so at least one can be found every few regiments in each of the House armies, but obviously way more common in the AFFS.
Also, don't forget that by the 4th war the AFFS and LCAF were exchanging a few units, so what's common in one and rare in the other is starting to blur a bit (though it doesn't ever become homogenous and not until the War of 3039 are you seeing common designs of both working together frequently.)
AFFS:
Javelin - Very common, but not all that rare to the other four houses, or to the TDF since its a late Star League-era design. TDF picked up many as the Star League fell, and kept them serviceable or replaced through salvage against AFFS.
Valkyrie - Very common. No problem.
Enforcer - Very common. No problem.
Centurion - This is questionable. Most common in the AFFS, but only at an uncommon frequency because the factory was destroyed in the 2nd war. FWLM has a fair amount, too, and by the late 3rd war era, the MHAF (Marion Hegemony) will actually have the highest percentage of their forces using it.
Rifleman - Questionable. Very common in the AFFS, but also fairly common amongst merc outfits
Jagermech - Common. No problem.
Victor - This is wrong. It was a Terran Hegemony design so everyone has them. Much more common in the LCAF and CCAF - LC and CC retain the construction capacity though 3rd war. Only when St Ives breaks away does the frequency ramp back up in the AFFS.
Wolverine is classically associated with the AFFS, too, but its become so common throughout the Inner Sphere that its not really tied to them anymore.
Battlemaster is an old design and not really associated with any one house. More common in the AFFS than elsewhere, but not significantly so. Only recognized in late 3rd war as Davion-ish because its what Hanse piloted.
DCMS:
Jenner - Very common. No problem.
Panther - Common. No problem.
Dragon - Common. No problem.
Charger - Questionable. Most common in DCMS but a lot are exported to the CC.
Quickdraw is most common in the DCMS, though the FWLM has about half as many so its tough to say if its overwhelmly a Drac design or not.
FWLM:
Hermes II - Common, no problem.
Wolverine - Strong no. This is more common in the AFFS and DCMS than FWLM.
Orion - Questionable. This was a Terran Hegemony design so everyone's got them. The DCMS has a surprisingly large number of them which puts into question how uniquely-FWL it may be.
Awesome - Questionable. This was widely distributed during the late Star League. FWLM by far has the most by 3rd war, but its not all that rare amongst the LCAF or DCMS either.
Spider is a rare mech - its factory was lost during the Amaris Civil War, and wasn't even that common then. FWLM has more than most, but the DCMS has more then they do. FWLM doesn't catch up until sometime after renewing production in 3051 (and they're still exporting most of them to the DCMS the first few years.) It most certainly is not a FWL-centric design during the 3rd war period, nor common enough. Spider is actually arguably one of the designs closest to extinction prior to the Helm core recovery.
Trebuchet is a FWL design you've overlooked. Everybody's got some, but FWLM easily has most of them (FWL controlled the factory until destroyed in 2nd war)
Flea is historically a FWL design. But rather maligned and not used in large numbers until Wolf's Dragoons brings it into regular use again in 3005, after which its basically considered a Dragoon-specific design, not FWLM.
CCAF
Urbanmech - Sad but true. Everbody's got some because it was a Star League design, but everyone else mostly keeps them in militias and reserves. Factory lost in 2nd war, so by end of 3rd war its not exactly that common in the CCAF, but certainly more present than the other houses.
Vindicator - Very common. No problem. Easily the totem mech of the CCAF. (Though the SIC kind of usurps it during their independence.)
Cyclops is more frequent in the CCAF than others. I think you could name it as "mostly" Capellan by late 3rd war era.
Highlander is a little more common in the CCAF than LCAF by 3rd war. Its still very rare though.
Cataphract not introduced until 3025. Its still pretty rare until the Clan Invasion era (and the FedSuns is making their own model of it by that time, too, so not distinctly Cappie enough in my opinion.)
Blackjack is sometimes associated with CCAF but its about even distribution across the border with AFFS. Going to see a lot of them on both sides of the Capellan March. (Probably most regional-specific 'mech without being House-specific)
LCAF
Commando - Very common. No problem.
Sentinel is missing from your list. Most common medium in the LCAF by 3025 (or roughly tied with Griffin and maybe Phoenix Hawk as a close third.)
Zeus - Common. No problem.
Banshee is sometimes lumped with the Lyrans but the FWLM has a lot of them, too. Its an an ancient Terran Hegemony design though so its spread across the Inner Sphere (and probably well out into the Periphery, too.)
Flashman - Not overwhelmly common, but what are left by 3rd war are almost exclusively Lyran. Exceptionally rare in other armies until the Dracs are gifted a large number by Comstar in 3035.
As far as minor powers go:
TDF
Nothing of consequence. Javelin comes closest in 3rd war era but is obviously more associated with the AFFS.
MAF:
Squat. (More focused on tanks than mechs)
AMC:
Merlin - About the only thing that would qualify. Still fairly rare since it was just introduced in 3010.
MHAF:
Centurion - if you overlook its earlier (1st and 2nd war) AFFS relationship
ComGuard is still (mostly) a secret by end of 3rd war, but in decreasing order of commonality that aren't also frequent in House militaries:
Guillotine
Mongoose
Black Knight
Thorn
Talon
Thug
Obviously more Star League era designs beyond this, Galahad and Lancelot being next, but less frequent. Any secret actions ComGuard undertook during 3rd war (like the Jolly Roger retribution pirate hunt) would probably not reveal any of these units and instead use stuff more common to House and Merc militaries than these, although very possibly using Star League era versions, like LCT-1Vb Locusts and PHX-2 Phoenix Hawks.
The RATs for all the houses (official or Xotls) are going to show a lot of the same units because they're widely distributed Star League era designs. The ones that become associated with a specific House are usually introduced just prior to (Panther) or after (Hermes II) the Star league fell, or one house controlled the sole factory making them and they became rare or extinct in the other houses (Sentinel)
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ghostrider
06/24/20 03:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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The random table seems to forget a few units. One of the designs produced by Davion but not really on the list is the Dervish. Not really a great mech in my opinion but they do have the supposedly only working factory for them. As I doubt they would just ignore the output, as the implied issue with a lack of units, would have them in their ranks.
One minor point with some of the mechs is they were not made in the 3 or 4th war. The Highlander, Flashman and a lot of Comstar units, which only saw deployment in the 4th war fit this issue.
And honestly, this is really not a extensive list. Looking at the few TO&E's of units, there is a lot that tend to use the same mechs, though variants are very common.
it was pointed out years back that the Concordat units seem to be copies of the LC. Which really sounds odd, since they are on the opposite side of the FS from them. The oddity comes when you see the Hatchetman in their inventory.
MoC doesn't really have any mech facilities, except for the light mechs, according to the Objective Raids book. It is old, so grain of salt here. They produce Leopard dropships, so again, some issues.
And you are partially right. Some mechs are commonly used by one house or another, but aren't 'exclusive'. The Awesome is on such mech. For the FWL supposedly lacking PPCs, the 8Q version seems to be the most sold to other nations.
Another oddity is the lack of factories that produce the Javelin. Maybe I missed it in the books, but I can't seem to find any producers.
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Wick
06/24/20 04:41 PM
173.247.25.195
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Dervish is originally a Lyran unit, not FedSuns. AFFS doesn't approach LCAF frequency on Dervish until end of the 1st war or so, with FedSuns still able to make them while Lyrans lost their factory. And the Combine has a large enough number of them to make it a three way contest.
I mentioned Flashman because seeing it on the battlefield almost certainly means the LCAF. Highlander I pointed out is a misrepresentation - especially in video games as TC said they were most familiar with. Games like BATTLETECH (video game) can give false impression about some mechs. Highlander being one of them as its not distinctly Capellan, nor anywhere near as common as it is in the game. I gave Comguard mechs mostly as a what-if.
Certainly a lot of variants are house-specific. Most -D variants for Davion, -M for Free Worlds League, etc. Not always consistent though (especially for mechs in the 3025 or 2750 TROs.) There's way too many of these to list though. I think that if we're discussing mechs associated with a house, we're talking any variant, not specific ones. Otherwise you've have Catapult on the list twice: the -C1 variant for Capellans and -K2 for Dracs.
I've got the Objective Raids book. Except for goofing on the absence of Tikonov (and maybe Chesterton, too?) its mostly pretty accurate. Its a shame its post-Clan invasion and doesn't always describe the pre-invasion status, because it leaves out a lot of factories assumed to have existed in the Clan corridor. The Hatchetman in TC is weird. It was retconned out as a mistake in the book, then retconned back in as a design the TC apparently stole and copied and built fresh with WoB technical help or something. Kind of messy to go back and forth but last I saw the word is that the TC can indeed make it starting 3054 (despite Objective Raids being dated to 3052 I think)
Mostly though the periphery states seem limited to producing the big four: Wasp, Stinger, Locust, and Phoenix Hawk. Three of these look like Robotech mecha so aren't in the BATTLETECH video game, which ruins the frequency of mechs in Aurigan Coalition space. By my RAT data, those four mechs, and all their variants should've made up 32.8% of the Aurigan Coalition Militia just prior to the Directorate takeover. Locust is only one in the game and its maybe 2%? Meanwhile, I've got Commando and Zeus both under .0025% (effectively non-existent) in that area of space, as it would demand a change in salvage ownership a couple times over to move them to backwater periphery worlds on the opposite side of known space, yet both mechs are in the game and not all that rare. Completely different views on 'mech frequency in video game world vs boardgame world.
Stormvanger's Javelin factory was destroyed in 2774. Presumably the Jalastar plant has a new line no later than 3062, but there isn't one during the Succession Wars. Its one of those mechs that canon says is made for a very short period of time (23 years) but is extremely common in a particular military. Worse examples likely exist, but its odd that 23 years makes Javelin more common than the continuous 200+ years of the Valkyrie. For the purposes of frequency, its almost certain that there's another Javelin factory (or more than one) somewhere in FedSuns space that's been cranking them out for 200+ years, but its never been described in canon. Objective Raids even points out that its not a full, comprehensive list of all factories, but it shouldn't have missed such important factories if they do exist.
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Dermenore
06/25/20 12:07 PM
92.169.144.247
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Thanks to signal me for the Banshee, Flashman, and Trebuchet, Wick. I would like to add them in my first post but I can't edit it anymore. At least, I add them in the short sections I made in the wiki, for each military of the Successors States.
About the rest... To be honest, it's hard for me to debate this. I don't feel legitimate because I just play two video games and never read any sourcebook.
But in the end, my purpose was to make some edits in this wiki. And to do that, I need sources. Lucky me, a lot of articles about battlemech said if it was most use by a faction. And each battlemech article uses sources to tell that.
Maybe your sources are more recent than sources use by people who make articles about battemechs. But even if it is the case, I can't use them to make edit because I don't know them.
In the end, I only mark a mech as "emblematic" if the wiki said it is. And, unfortunately, article in the wiki disagrees with you for some mech. I quote the article about mechs in questions (and add the sources used by the article) to justify my choice:
Centurion: "Born on the battlefields of the First Succession War, the Centurion performed admirably and it quickly became associated with the Armed Forces of the Federated Suns as its unofficial 'Mech. Best known for making slow, steady advances, the Centurion was also a capable raider and the formidable appearance of the Luxor autocannon gave its pilot a psychological boost." (Technical Readout: 3039, p. 133) (Technical Readout: 3025 Revised, p. 54)
Rifleman: "With the collapse of the Star League and start of the Succession Wars, the Rifleman was scattered amongst the militaries of the Successor States. House Davion fielded the largest concentration of Riflemen and used them to good effect in their battles with House Kurita. [...]" (Technical Readout: 3039, p. 293-294, "RFL-3N Rifleman") (Technical Readout: 3025, p. 82)
Victor: "Only Independence Weaponry retained the ability to build new Victors, and with their capture by the Federated Suns during the Second Succession War it became the AFFS' primary assault 'Mech and a favorite command model for battalion and regimental commanders. Though the Draconis Combine would eventually retake the company following the War of 3039, most Kurita samurai were too proud to adopt a 'Mech now associated with their enemy, while the Davions made do with purchasing new models from the rebuilt HildCo factory in the St. Ives Compact and funding the construction of Styk's Tao MechWorks." (Technical Readout: 3039, p. 159) (Technical Readout: 3025 Revised, p. 104)
Wolverine: Besides being produced by Kallon's factories on Nanking and Thermopolis, Free Worlds Defense Industries and Victory Industries later acquired the right to build Wolverines from their plants on Gibson and Marduk respectively. The Free Worlds League was thus the largest user of Wolverines followed thereafter by the Federated Sun-turned-Federated Commonwealth. (Technical Readout: 3039, p. 290-291, "WVR-6R Wolverine")
Charger: By 3025 nearly five hundred of the original thousand Chargers were still in use, largely with the Combine but also in the other Great Houses too. This was mainly due to battlefield salvage and black-market trading, the latter of which Wells itself took part in due to export restrictions placed on it by the Combine. The company was eventually bought out by its license-holder Luthien Armor Works in 3027 after the discovery of this underhanded dealing, and production of the original Charger ceased altogether in 3030. (Technical Readout: 3039, p. 157) (Technical Readout: 3025 Revised, p. 100)
Orion: After the fall of the Star League Kali Yama Weapons Industries took over production of the Orion, building new models from their factories on Kalidasa. This left the Free Worlds League as the only producer of new Orions during the Succession Wars, although the other Successor States were capable of building spare parts to repair their 'Mechs, and meant the Free Worlds League Military was the largest Orion user. [...] (Technical Readout: 3039, pp. 152-153) (Technical Readout: 3025 Revised, pp. 100-101)
Awesome: "Originally built for the Star League out of Technicron's factory on Savannah, the Awesome soon became a common sight in the armies of all the House Lords. At the start of the Succession Wars, the Free Worlds League was able to maintain control of the Savannah factory, making them the only Successor State capable of building new Awesomes and thus the largest user of them." (Technical Readout: 3025, p. 104 "Assault 'Mechs - AWS-8Q Awesome") ("Technical Readout: 3039, p. 154-155") ("Technical Readout: 3050 Upgrade, p. 84-85")
In the same idea, I checked the page about Quickdraw and Cyclops but nothing is told about them use more by one faction. For the Highlander, it's just "These HGN-733 Highlanders were used in small numbers by the Capellan Confederation and Lyran Commonwealth [...]". Sentinel and Flea are indicated as specific for LC and FWL but both quickly extinct at the start of the Successions Wars.
Otherwise, I have the same opinion about Spider, Cataphract, and Blackjack.
Again, maybe you are right and have better sources. But if it's the case, I can't use them.
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Wick
06/25/20 04:57 PM
173.247.25.195
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I'm not trying to say that certain mechs are more common in a nation than canon says. Only that a lot of these are prominent enough in another military to put the matter of association into doubt.
Ok I did actually say that about Wolverine, and looking at that TRO statement its clear I need to adjust WVR-6M rarity up a notch in my RAT data. But its still invented by the FedSuns in 2471, was their primary medium through Age of War, and didn't really spread much to other nations until it was rolled into the SLDF. (And even then likely remained pretty rare outside of the divisions operating in FedSuns, Concordat, and Outworlds space during the periphery war.) The -6R model is a Star League design (2575) so it would be fairly common throughout known space, but its also the design the FedSuns built for themselves and didn't stop until the -7D came along in 3050. Dracs start building the 6K model in 2598 but lost factory in 1st Succession War. FWL doesn't start building the -6M until 2816. I'm not sure 200 years of work on the FWL model makes Wolverines more associated with them than the 550 years the FedSuns have been making them. Even if they have more, the long history of being built in FedSuns space (and for a time, in Combine space, too.) works against making the association.
Victor: Objective Raids p 149 suggests that HildCo may have been making Victors prior to the St Ives Compact breaking away from the Confederation. Its unclear when this factory rebuild occurs. Fluff says all three Hildco factories were lost in the First War, so it could be interpreted as having been rebuilt at any point between 2820 and 3028. It was my understanding that the FedSuns/FedCom would get the entire output of Victors form the plant in exchange for providing defense o the St Ives Compact in the event of Liao aggression, but when the Clans invade the FedCom can no longer keep that guarantee (and the St Ives Military really wants more than just Vindicators and Blackjacks filling their ranks.) Having reread these bits of fluff, I'm going to assume the plant is inoperaable until a short time before the St Ives Compact breaks away, which would deny the Cappies as many as I've got them holding as buildup during the 2nd and 3rd wars. In any case, it was introduced as a Terran Hegemony design in 2508. Marauder is nearly similar weight and I find it more related to the FedSuns than the Victor.
Charger: Looking at this in more detail, yes you could call this a Combine mech. CC doesn't start buying Combine Chargers to refit to their -1L variant until 3022. The Confederation will have a sizable number by the War of 3039, but by mid-3025 (when TRO:3025 is dated) then sure, the Combine has such an overwhelming majority of them that the association is clear.
I don't dispute what the other fluff says about being largest user or fielding the most. But in my mind, you've got to own two thirds or maybe even three quarters of them to be the house its associated with. Mechs like the Wolverine, Rifleman, Orion and Awesome don't fit this bill because they were too widely distributed during the Star League days. Nobody has a clear majority on them. Being largest user of five sometimes means only controlling 25 or 30% of them. These four might well be in the 50-60% range, which is no doubt significant, but not slamdunks like Jenner, Panther, Valkyrie, Enforcer, Hermes II, etc. for which their parent state's military probably owns at least 90% of them.
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Dermenore
06/25/20 06:05 PM
92.169.144.247
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I see. The problem is more about the definition of "emblematic" or "most used".
About the Wolverine, I understand your point. It was created by FedSun mech who uses them a lot longer than FWL. After, I have limited my research at the Successions Wars, exactly to simplify in comparison to this kind of case.
After... I don't know. I understand now the difference between mech like Vindicator and Enforcer, who are really "totem mech" and mech like Rifleman or Awesome who are just "slightly more used". My purpose was also to indicate that kind of mech because I wanted that people (or more precisely, newcomers like me who explore the wiki) can imagine an "typical lance" for each Successor State during the Successions Wars.
But the term "emblematic mech" is probably too strong and "most use" would be false (the "most use" are Locust, Flea, and Wasp). Maybe "associated mechs"? It's less strong than "emblematic" and can be used for mech than a faction possessed at 50-60% as you said.
It's a little out of subject but the Phoenix Hawk is now in the Battletech video game. It was added to the last DLC.
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Wick
06/26/20 03:46 PM
173.247.25.195
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The RAT tables would give a fairly representative lance for many players. But they have two problems:
1. Only 11 choices per weight class (sometimes more if broken up into equipment rating) and certainly from 3050 forward it puts too much emphasis on brand new mechs, as if militaries had full turnover of equipment on the order of months, instead of the decades it might take.
2. You get only a few options on when to base your RAT. For Succession Wars, you're pretty much stuck with 3025 as your only basis. That's fine for campaigns set 3010-3028 timeframe. Not so great if you want to play 2850.
Xotl had a pretty good idea to go to 1d1000 to fix the first problem. I've solved the second (mostly) by using the construction at and fluff to help model a variable frequency dependent on factors like time since first construction (brand new mechs should be very rare, more common as they age), factory size (Defiance for example makes more), unit weight (lighters can be produced faster), and any fluff factors. So I can roughly provide a RAT for any major military for any point in time. My numbers might not match official RAT or Xotl's for 3025/2750, but I can make pretty good guesses about what things looked like throughout the succession wars. And during Age of War and Star League era as well (my models end at the Clan invasion, as the influx of Clan mechs, especially Omnis, is an extra challenge)
I started this project because I wanted a decades long mercenary campaign that started about 2970, and I kept rolling units from a 3025 RAT that didn't exist yet. Its still beta but I could use to answer some of your questions by looking over the top frequency of 'mechs (generally 3% frequency or greater.) See attachment of example of AFFS as of 3025. I collapsed a couple of nodes so I could get Victor onto same screen. Phoenix Hawk, Wasp, Stinger, and Locust generally show up in the top 10 of everyone. Others like Firestarter, Hunchback, and Warhammer are frequent top 12 or so as well. The rest are associated or emblematic though: Javelin, Rifleman, Valkyrie, Enforcer, Marauder, Jagermech. Centurion's down the list a little further (Hunchback 2.42%, Stalker 2.42%, Battlemaster 2.12%, Atlas 2.05%, Centurion 1.82%) 1.82% isn't bad for a mech out of production for 180 years though. (Battlemaster is in the same boat but was produced for almost 200 years compared to Centurion's 44, which explains its higher rarity in my model. All the others are still being produced somewhere.)
I haven't played the video game in a while. Beat it twice when it was new, but kind of put it aside. Good that Phoenix Hawk is added, but I'm sure the frequency is still all wrong (especially if Wasp and Stinger are also still absent.)
Attachment (159 downloads)
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ghostrider
06/26/20 08:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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Are you sure it is the Centurion out of production?
The objective raids book says it is made on New Avalon and Panpour.
So there is a conflict in if the Centurion is out of production or not.
I just remember seeing one of the books say the NAIS restored an automated factory, and believe it was the Centurion line. Maybe it was a Valkyrie line and the added the Centurion. I don't remember.
But then I don't know if you are saying the model you have is out, and the others are still being made, so there is some room for error here.
The game is missing a lot of units. I would say the lawsuit is why, but the Wolverine, Marauder, and Warhammer are still in there. It may well be the Wasp and Stinger would die quicker then most others as their main defense is jumping, and in the game, that doesn't seem to affect much. The Spider in the HBS game is a lot tougher then it should be. But speed seems to be the only real defense for lights, and the Wasp and Stinger don't have that much, nor do they have the armor, as the locust is carrying a ton more in the normal game.
In the board game, wasps were produced before the SL was formed, if I remember right. So there are PLENTY of them around. Granted, they might be in the scrapyards more then the field, so grain of salt with this statement.
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Dermenore
06/26/20 10:10 PM
92.169.144.247
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Well, that nice to have more RAT. 
Warhammer is used by all the great houses, no? And the Maradauder is described as "rare" in this wiki.
I am almost sure that the proportion for Pheonix Hawk is wrong, even if you see quite often. I think this is because of game balance and the same for Wasp and Stinger. Passed a certain cap, you don't see a lot of medium mech. It would be to easy to win when you command a heavy or assault lance. And it's worst with lights who has the other "default" to be almost never used by the player. I think the devs didn't want to add two more models, that have almost the same role as the Locust and that the player will see only at the start of the game and never use himself. It's probably why there are 16 medium mechs, 13 heavy, 13 assault but only 10 light mechs in this video game. In my opinion, the lawsuit was never a problem.
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ghostrider
06/27/20 08:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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Interesting that the Marauder is considered rare, as more then a few units with heavy and assault lances seem to have one in them. The Concordat produces at least 3 different models of it, in multiple factories. So the information and the fluff doesn't seem to line up. But that isn't a shock, for the board game.
The issue with the wasp and stinger seems to stem from the fact the only the srm 2 and mgs are the difference between them. Pulling one would have people that love it, complain. For the HBS game anyways.
Not sure if you got into the black market in the HBS game, but it seems they are the main ones with advanced tech, and the only ones that sell certain mechs. I would think that would not be the case. But give them time with the wasp/stinger. They may yet put them in. What DLC did they put the Phoenix Hawk in? I know it isn't the stock game.
Not sure if you read the older posts, but one issue with normal mechs is why the 2750 versions seem to be the same as the 3025 versions. No advanced tech found in any caches. The game says the 3025 models are low grade tech compared to the SL models, yet I have not seen anything to support this. There are mechs that aren't produced because of the lack of high tech parts, like the Talon and Thorn for light mechs. But the Wasp/Stinger had no real high tech parts in them.
I would think they would have had to change out weapons when they were no longer produced. The SRM in the Wasp's leg is very odd.
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ghostrider
06/28/20 12:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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Another point came up as to mechs being considered 'house' units.
The Hatchetman was supposed to be a newer design in 3025, yet the Concordat makes them as well as other LC mechs. So the Commando would be in large numbers in the Concordat. So would that mean it isn't the staple only in the LC?
There is so many issues with the back stories that some units are not listed, though only produced in certain areas, but that other areas have a major number, but would have to buy or salvage them from others.
But it is nice that someone did make up something that you could come close to being what should be there.
A question does come up. Do the RAT have included in them, mechs that the nation on the other side of a border use, as a representation of such salvage, or even capture of mechs? So the Draconis March is likely to have Jenners and Panthers as part of their forces, from such methods, while the Capellen March is not as likely, unless they salavage any the CC bought from the DC.
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Dermenore
06/28/20 02:47 PM
92.169.144.247
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About the Marauder, I can only quote this wiki, who is my only source except for videogames.
The Phoenix Hawk is introduced in the Heavy Metal DLC, the third and normally last. I don't think there will be other DLC for the HBS games because only 3 where announced.
I don't really understand what you said about the difference between 2750 mech and 3025 models. What I understand in the video games is that only mechs with lost-techs are superior to mech without it.
You can gain access to the Black Market. But in general, mechs are easy to gain by salvage. It seems to me that was a source of complaint with some old battlemech fan, that mechs could be gain to easily compare at what universe said about their rarity.
It's true that you start a campaign with only 3 medium mechs and 1 light mech. And then, after 2 or 3 years, you can finish it with 18 assaults mech (most likely a mix of medium/heavy/assault). But there are some justifications in-game (spoiler, you are supported by the Canopian, find SLDF stuff, are in frontline against a Taurian mech regiment that you can salvage many times...).spoilers end
Again, I really think that Wasp and Stinger are absent because they would be redundant with Locust. As a player, you almost never use Light Mech (except with mod of course) and don't fight a lot of 20 tons mech because you quickly gain a lance full of 55 tons mechs.
The Xolt RAT includes a 5% chance that a mech is a salvage for another house. Generally, it's 2,5% for each "hereditary enemies" of the House. For example, for Kurita it's 2,5% chance Davion and 2,5% chance of Steiner. For Davion, it's 2,5% chance Kurita and 2,5% chance Liao. Etc...
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ghostrider
06/29/20 12:47 AM
66.74.60.165
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The books tend to say something, but their own novels, adventure packs and even TO&E of units says something different. The WIki is pretty good about keeping things on the canon line, so not really saying what they have up is bad.
The board game story line has it that the mechs in the 3025 era were down graded from the original Star League units. I understand that when the game first started, it seemed like the League mechs were not really thought up. But as the game progressed, the entire idea that the League units were better didn't pan out. The locust that was made near the end of the SL should have been different from the ones produced in 3025. Even those found in caches that the SL left behind when the exodus happened are no better then those made in the 3025 era.
Now the HBS game, it is easier to salvage mech from the enemy then buy them, but the point I was making is some mechs, like the King Crab, were only on the black market, on easy at least. Other items like the super missile launchers and such with multiple powerful bonuses were black market only.
The issue with the game is that you can perform several missions in a single day, which is impossible in the board game. Damage repair is much slower in the board game. If not for the multiple fast missions, you would not have that many heavy and assault mechs that quickly.
Salvage is much more difficult in the board game as well. You do not just gain a third of a mech with each one you take down. The more damage done, the less parts you are likely to get from it. So the HBS saying that taking out a mechs legs will gain a more intact mech isn't quite right. The removal of the legs tends to mean the legs are destroyed. Machining parts on the spot doesn't really happen in the board game.
But the video game is still fun, though annoying when it doesn't follow the board game on things. A ppc hit should not blow out both side torsos, and not touch the center one. But they do not run the damage and armor like the board game, so it does have some leeway.
As stated about the Locust verse the Wasp/Stinger. The locust is faster, more armor, and no jump jets. Since a locust can't jump, it doesn't have as many places it can get to like on the top of a ridge from the bottom of the cliff.
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Wick
06/29/20 03:12 PM
173.247.25.195
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Centurion: I was remembering factory being destroyed in 2845. Rereading Sarna.net article it says new line started up 3012. So right and wrong at same time. Not as common as you'd think in 3025 due to the 167 year lull, but ramping up again since 3012. But not like the Valkyrie or Enforcer that never went out of production.
See attachment for what I'm talking about with time being a major factor in how common or rare a unit is. If I'm playing a game in 2850, Centurions are going to be twice as common, but Valkyries only half as so, compared to a game set in 3010. After the Centurion factory is destroyed, Centurions start to get rarer until that new factory comes along in 3012, after which new and refurbished units start appearing faster, while Valkyrie just kept climbing until it reaches my artificial limit (In reality it would go higher but capped it to prevent it from dominating random unit selection - it doesn't need to be in every single lance and helps rarer mechs like Hornet and Ostscouts still show up periodically.) A refit like the flamer Valkyrie grows at a slower rate than factory models. My RAT works on a very similar process to the Excel spreadsheet I used to make this graph, letting me choose a more appropriate frequency for any year until 3049 (Though obviously, with a lot more than just 3 designs int he model.)
Warhammer is pre-Star League, so its everywhere by the fall of it. Another Terran Hegemony design that got exported around.
Marauder is Star League (2612) so its spread around too. I've still only got it ranked as "Uncommon" in my data (4th of 7 rankings). meanwhile things like Thug, Lancelot, and Guillotine are Common (5th rank) in 2750. I attribute this to Marauder being easier to supplement with Lostech - so it roughly stays at Uncommon in the House armies as the Succession Wars go on (or ramps up in AFFS after the first war) while those three suffer greatly and become much rarer.
Regarding 2750 vs 3025; Star League operated on 2 game levels, and roughly three tiers of equipment:
- 1. Super-advanced stuff (level 2 or higher). Only the Royal divisions (and maybe Terran Hegemony home forces) got any of it. Exporting this tech outside the Terran Hegemony was a capital crime. Some of it came into possession of the Houses at the Fall of the Star League, but they didn't understand how to maintain most of it so it was lost quickly in the first and second wars.
- 2. Somewhat advanced stuff (level 2) - These distributed to the SLDF, but at the Fall a lot of it fell to House armies, too (and a little bit to periphery states.) The Houses could replicate/repair/rebuild a lot of it, but it depended on tech. Things like double heat sinks lasted all the way to something like 2950 before the means to create them were lost.
- 3. Not advanced (level 1) - At the fall, most house army units were this base, and practically all periphery units. This stuff was pretty well understood and kept being produced non-stop, so long as its factory wasn't damaged or destroyed (making them the prime targets of the succession wars). Things from the advanced tier were often retrofitted/downgraded to level 1 to keep them serviceable, such as replacing pulse lasers with standards.
So for the purposes of gaming, a level 1 mech in 2750 isn't any different than one from 3025. But roleplaying-wise, you can factor in things like "craftmanship" - in which the Star League era stuff is little more sophisticated, more durable, smaller in size, etc. Mechs made in 3025 might perform the same, but aren't considered as good quality. (Imagine if cell phones regressed to what they were 20-30 years ago. Can still make phone calls with either, but today's model gets better reception, more reliable signal and fits in your pocket better, among many other things.)
Video games tend to lean toward heavier sizes than canon. Books too I guess. They mount more weapons, take more of a beating, etc so you can game more or write more with them than the wimps who might get blown away in a single shot. Canon sources say house armies are something like 30% of all mechs are light, 40% are medium, 20% heavy, and 10% assault. (In the periphery, it leans closer to 50/30/15/5; bigger 'mechs are harder to upkeep and periphery states are more dependent on raiding than full out engagements.) So the HBS game tacking place in the near periphery really should have had a lot more light 'mechs than we see.
Attachment (137 downloads)
Edited by Wick (06/29/20 03:17 PM)
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Wick
06/29/20 03:59 PM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
Again, I really think that Wasp and Stinger are absent because they would be redundant with Locust. As a player, you almost never use Light Mech (except with mod of course) and don't fight a lot of 20 tons mech because you quickly gain a lance full of 55 tons mechs.
The Xolt RAT includes a 5% chance that a mech is a salvage for another house. Generally, it's 2,5% for each "hereditary enemies" of the House. For example, for Kurita it's 2,5% chance Davion and 2,5% chance of Steiner. For Davion, it's 2,5% chance Kurita and 2,5% chance Liao. Etc...
Agreed it would make a lesser video game if Stinger and Wasp filled your ranks. But I wish there were more scouting lances in each campaign mission. Should be easy picking unless they get away and warn the bigger 'mechs you're coming. (And if you clear the scout lances without any of them reporting back, you can catch the main force off guard and gain an advantage later in the mission.) There's a few missions that worked that way, but they could have done it a lot more to help satisfy the 'mech frequencies better. And take out about 3/4 of the assault mechs you run into very late in the game, though I can sort of buy this as bounty hunters seeking to take your precious Atlas II and all its lostech back to their masters. If I'm going after an Atlas II I'd be taking assault mechs, as well.
2.5% salvage rate is a fair estimate. I think I usually go 3% between houses in my model but more friendly borders (FWLM-Confederation by the 4th war scales down a bit and these two are salvaging more from the other border, or when success against one is more prevalent, such as DCMS getting 3% from AFFS but 4% from LCAF, whom they generally got the better of during the first three succession wars.) I also add a .5% or 1% from houses salvaging from neighboring periphery states, but this has little impact as they're mostly using the same mechs. It might have minor impacts like giving the DCMS a small chance at Merlins though. But for the periphery states, their salvage rates from their neighboring houses is much greater than 2.5 or 3%. I've got the Taurian Defense Force at 12% from the AFFS, 2% CCAF, and 2% Magistracy Armed Forces, because they are almost entirely dedicated to fighting the FedSuns. (By similar measure, the MAF gets 8% from the FWLM and AMC gets 8% from DCMS.) This is time-dependent too (AFFS and LCAF gain a boost to CCAF salvage post 4th-war for example) but my modelling of this is less advanced than the raw mech generation. (But since its a smaller percentage of the whole, it doesn't matter as much.) So while I think the 5% rule Xotl uses is fair for the houses, its a bad rate for the periphery states. Periphery states know they're stuff is inferior and they don't have the manufacturing capacity to keep up, so they'll salvage even half-operational mechs from other guys that the house armies might instead strip for spare parts. They need to be at least 10%, if not 15 or 16% like I've got the Taurians.
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kiarajokina
07/04/20 05:20 AM
69.167.44.247
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I think you made a little mistake. The mech was invented before the 4e succession wars (the wiki said he start production in 3025). But he precise too that the mech didn't see mass production before the 4e succession wars and then the factory was taken by the Suns.
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