Requiem
07/02/20 10:44 PM
1.158.192.25
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I would also like to make one further point,
If Amaris’ forces of 270 ships and 144 Regiments + those on the RWR worlds could defeat 5,300 to 5,400 SLDF Warships and over 4,000 Regular Army Regiments.
This would place Kerensky on the running with that of Publius Quinctilius Varus (9 AD) when he lost 3 Roman Legions in the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest as the most incompetent General of all time ….
So rather than be lauded as the Greatest General …. in reality it would be more likely Kerensky would be considered to be one of history’s most incompetent ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/03/20 02:36 AM
66.74.60.165
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Have you ever really used strategy and tactics? How do you hurt someone with a huge advantage in numbers? You take small units and spread them out as far as you can, and make as much noise as a diversionary tactic, and hope the enemy spread out enough that a concentrated force can take out chunks before being hunted down. It is how the Allies were able to get onto Normandy. They caused the Germans to think they were hitting elsewhere, and deployed forces to cover those areas.
You really think the SLDF was rounding up the RWR forces for a trail? They were there to wipe them out of existence. Doesn't matter if they were part of the plot or not. They would be hung up besides Amaris. To bypass some, would be opening up your flanks or rear to an attack. SO there would be no trials to forestall the hunt for Amaris. Just enough slow down to make sure you didn't get hit from units that might be left behind.
How did Katherine kill her mother? Oh yeah. Used assassins. Something the entire military couldn't stop. Gee. Maybe this would be a good way to hit Richard and the other Camerons. It would also allow them to deny the whole thing. Sound familiar to the entire history of using them? Or did that stop in the middle ages?
There were security protocols in place to prevent the assassination. Richard ordered them to be suspended. Not much you can do when the boss puts an end to them.
All games have issues with numbers being wrong. Some are just not that bad with them. Trying to say otherwise is showing a lack of real comprehension for things. The developers seemed to not bother keeping writers in line with the rules. Changing them screwed up things as well. Some things needed to be changed, but they took it to far and destroyed some of their own creations.
The house lords removed Kerensky from the regent position, not the head of the military. And in that statement, the SL was dead. So there is no real reason to think Kerensky had the power to do much with that. He could have done a coup, but following the way he was made, he didn't want to take that power.
There should have been more then a few things to avoid the destruction of the SL. It is possible the house lords were undoing that as much as they could before Richard got killed. It may have even been Richard himself the stopped anything from kicking in. He did remove the security protocols for allowing Amaris in, and to have access to the Leagues data base.
Which actually makes Richard a traitor to the TH. He was giving away TH secrets to someone outside the TH.
The forces and the right are two different things. They could well have got involved in the succession war, but they would be in the wrong until the nukes and other war crimes were noticed. Even then, the TH was on it's own, as the SL was no more. So becoming involved was beyond their reach.
Question one with the statement of how many warships each had. How is the RWR able to have more warships then the entire houses combined?
Question two. Why do you think that those numbers are correct, since the issue isn't BEFORE the periphery war, but AFTER taking out Amaris. You know, when they had less the 550 warships?
Question three. Why do you think it would be a short war with the few forces remaining to the SLDF after the Amaris war? Even with 600 ships, you are talking thousands of systems to try and pacify. Your own words about the rebellions against the clans would come up here. Each system would have to be held by force. A few thousand verses billions I believe the argument went.
Question four. Why would the TH citizens feel that losing more soldiers to stop a war between those that destroyed the SL for their own greedy purposes? How much of the forces left would be destroyed in such a war? How many TH worlds would be destroyed when the house sent in their raids to pull the SLDF out of their areas? Just let the houses fight, then walk in afterwards when they don't have anything to resist with. Maybe even use politics and really put the screws to them.
The SL did not dictate to the houses how to act and think. It was political not dictatorship. If it was, the DC would NOT have been able to do what it did. There would have been no house allowed to opt out of the periphery wars. That would also go for not helping remove Amaris.
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ghostrider
07/03/20 02:47 AM
66.74.60.165
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The soldiers from the different nations did not have a shooting war to push them into action. When the shooting starts, it then start changing from the soldier in the U.N. to seeing their homeland with family being destroyed. Then you always have someone talking crap that upsets those around them. Even just cheering on something like the Kentares massacre. Some soldiers would never fall for this, while others would start it as soon as they could. One shot would be what starts it, and it would happen. Bad hair day, and your buddy says something wrong.
Again. Using pre war numbers to try and suggest the second war outcome is incorrect. The reason why the Great General is used, is because he was in charge at the time. It may well be he used blackmail and schemes to get into the top position. I don't know. I do know that reading the printed material, not adding in words, it says Kerensky did not want the power.
If you want to use that line, go ahead. And rewrite is correct in the fact the alt needs a full rewrite from the start. The entire issue that cause the SL to fall would not happen. So go from there.
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Requiem
07/03/20 08:09 AM
1.158.192.25
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make as much noise as a diversionary tactic
Considered and disregarded … as the problem with this tactic is that Amaris will have to remove himself, as well as his complete command and control (C2) apparatus, from the Star League capitol city (The Court of the Star League) located near Puget Sound (North America).
Considering Amaris’ penchants’ for being seen as the ruler of the Star League and his psychopathic tendencies for seeing himself as the ultimate ruler as well as being the smartest person in the room I cannot see this ever happening – as once he leaves Terra his self delusion will be shattered – as he can no longer be seen as First Lord – he will become just another hunted criminal.
He will hold onto this self delusion for as long as he can, and this means holding onto the world of Terra – thus there really is only one real strategy that remains for Amaris and his forces if Amarais will not leave Terra and that is defense in depth….
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You really think the SLDF was rounding up the RWR forces for a trail? They were there to wipe them out of existence.
This is where the morality of the Commanding officer must be considered as to the actions they order their forces to undertake …. What is the ultimate political aim of the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War? What is the ultimate goal? To restore order to the Star League as quickly and as efficiently as possible or Is it just mindless destruction?
A warrior does her / his duty, they do not revel in death …..
If the aim is to end this as quickly as possible there is only one applicable strategy - take the head off the snake …. The remainder of the cronies can be hunted down utilizing a designated team designed for the task.
Though if you want mindless destruction have at it and destroy the RWR – just remember the people you are attacking are innocent and as far as I am concerned you have just now switched sides to that of Amaris’ butchers in the way you have behaved – the guilty yes, the innocent no.
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All games have issues with numbers being wrong.
Eleven to One is not that bad? It changes the entire dynamic of the IS history ….
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The house lords removed Kerensky from the regent position, not the head of the military. And in that statement, the SL was dead.
Legally the House Lords cannot remove the Regent …. The Regent is the acting First Lord and as such has a higher rank than that of the House Lords.
So they are stuck in the same situation .. there is a person in charge of the Star League and as such it continues on …….
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Question one with the statement of how many warships each had. How is the RWR able to have more warships then the entire houses combined?
This is something you will have to ask the game developers, as it does not make in sense.
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Question two. Why do you think that those numbers are correct, since the issue isn't BEFORE the periphery war, but AFTER taking out Amaris. You know, when they had less the 550 warships?
Because it is documented in the canon books / Sarna website. (refer above for the pages I obtained the information from)
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Question three. Why do you think it would be a short war with the few forces remaining to the SLDF after the Amaris war?
The only viable strategy for Amaris is to put all of his forces on Terra and dig in (and move his C2 to a new hidden location) – once the SLDF arrives it will be world war on a massive scale in an attempt to find and take Amaris … however considering the above forces available to Kerensky I cannot see this lasting very long ….
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Question four. Why would the TH citizens feel that losing more soldiers to stop a war between those that destroyed the SL for their own greedy purposes?
First, the SL has not / and can not be destroyed by this attempted Coup;
Second, the war within the TH will be limited to one system only (Terran)
Third, considering Amaris’ track record with regard to government I doubt anyone would consider taking out Amaris and his forces a bad thing.
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…….it says Kerensky did not want the power.
As my hypothesis states ….. Kerensky wanted the House Lords to put him on the throne, he did not want the people to put him there ….. <Highly egotistical> …. Plus saying he does not want it when asked looks good for the PR / history books ….
Still does not change the fact that the canon history has the SL at 5,800 warships and over 1,700 ‘Mech Regiments versus a force of 270 warships and 144 Regiments within the TH …..
The only way Amaris forces are going to kill of 5300 to 5400 warships is with a very big gun …. So where is it?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/03/20 01:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not thinking about the real way diversions happen I can see. The COMMANDER is not the one to lead diversionary troops. They are others in the army that do so. The good ones can do the job and make it out.
Or do you think Amaris would scrub toilets as well?
The politics were to destroy the forces and the man that killed the first lord as well as started a crime spree in the heart of the SL. I do agree that a lot of people that were just doing a job would be wiped out with this, but there are concerns that have to be addressed. The main one comes with how much information do those people have? Do they have access to the command codes to shut down security systems in the future to run ops? Did they start shipping out the specs for factories and military equipment to make in the future? Black mail material? All governments have secrets that they have to keep. Simple things like removing someone about to start a war, if they can. Others are simply having a spy found or the leader doing something stupid at a meeting, such as an affair.
The actions of Amaris was not new to those serving under him. They knew and at least served him so he could continue to do what he was doing. At the least, they enabled him. I don't see where many had much choice, as dictators tend to be do as I say or I will hurt you and your family. These were probably not the exception.
Again, your time frame is off. Those numbers were before the periphery war. The SL had far less people when Amaris struck. SO the analysis is incorrect with those numbers.
I would think the SL charter had something in it that the house lords could take charge if there were no one left to take the throne. None of them could do so without the unanimous support of the others. Which would show why the SL fell. And regent does not mean full capabilities of the first lord. It may well be a few extra duties over the commander of the SLDF.
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ghostrider
07/03/20 01:37 PM
66.74.60.165
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The numbers of ships suggest either a typo, or possible stealing of SL ships that were left to guard the TH. They did have access to sending out orders, so it is conceivable that they had 'orders from the first lord' to allow RWR forces on them. I want to say it is impossible, but given the fact that had access and even force in the SL network, it becomes possible. I think the writers realized that the small forces the RWR should have had were not enough to do more then make Kerensky take a second breath before destroying them.
Again. Those numbers were before the periphery war. They do not stand after that war.
Again. Only viable solution. One way to stop an superior number army is to spread them out looking for your forces. As they do, you begin to gain some leeway into how many you face at ones. 100 to 1 isn't going to work. If you can drop that down to even 10 to 1, you have a chance. There is no way that a single battle would work for Amaris. He may have been a dictator, but he did know what he was doing.
And using your profile of him, if he was that out of it thinking he was the best, why would he pull forces off other worlds, when his forces could be Kerensky easily? Delay the SLDF and hit them where they are weakest before the battle comes closer to home. I would suspect this is how the periphery was holding the SLDF back for so long. Scour worlds for the enemy, then move on.
The SL did die during the coup. The ruling family was wiped out. The house lords voted to annul the charter that created the SL. 5 of the 6 nations part of it pulled out. Pure simple logic. Those 5 that were part of it left, and the 6th had no one that could do anything to even begin to restore it. Had Kerensky stayed and tried, he would have been branded as the one to make a military coup. The succession guidelines does NOT allow the military to pick who rules. Granted, it has throughout history, but the charter would be set up so the command of the military could not just wipe out the ruling family to take over.
Again, your facts are incorrect. The numbers provided were before the periphery war. They were NOT the numbers used by the SLDF to hit Amaris.
Now, the idea of having the rest of the SLDF fleet in one unit is where you continue to lose in a war. Using multiple tactics, you can thin out how many you have to deal with at any one time. As stated, spreading out their forces to search for yours is a good way. Even without engaging those scouts, it still thins out the other forces. Only a person or two can be enough to cause a few regiments to be sent out looking for you. This may be the idea the writers used to suggest the SLDF needed far more troops then what would be suggested.
Another fact is the SLDF did not have the support of the house lords. So any major damage to warships had to go to their secret locations. So the TH to says Camelot Command sound about right?
Sabotage is another way to sideline warships. Simple bombs on supply craft would work.
Oh. And your idea of no one not wanting Amaris taken out is wrong as well. Both the LC and DC were not wanting that. The LC was actively impeding the destruction of the RWR for their own personal financial gains, while the DC would have to be worried that Amaris would have an instant kill order for the hostage upon his death. Also, any damage done to the SLDF is more pressure on the next ruler to give in to the demands of the house lords.
Given the fact all the house lords wanted the SLDF numbers to be diminished, this was good, as they did not have to suffer the damage to do so. They may not like Amaris, but he was putting them all closer to the first lord position by removing the Cameron line. I would suspect the houses WOULD get involved if Amaris looked like he might win.
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Requiem
07/03/20 07:51 PM
1.158.192.25
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Again. Those numbers were before the periphery war. They do not stand after that war.
If the average House Army is at 100.4 ‘Mech Regiments and 47.4 Warships how large is a Periphery Army?
Again if factoring in a periphery war with just the Taurian Concordat projected losses should not be excessive for the SLDF in the overall scheme of things.
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Again. Only viable solution. One way to stop an superior number army is to spread them out looking for your forces. As they do, you begin to gain some leeway into how many you face at ones. 100 to 1 isn't going to work. If you can drop that down to even 10 to 1, you have a chance. There is no way that a single battle would work for Amaris. He may have been a dictator, but he did know what he was doing.
No! Amaris was a psychopath who was on an ego trip – I doubt you could put him in the same boat as Gnaeus Pompey when he deserted Rome as Caesar had crossed the Rubicon – He’s only desire is to be First Lord – and for him to Leave Terra is the same as giving away this title!
To stay is to be the First Lord…..
To run is to live in shame, ignominious ….. and without the title of being First Lord …… from this point, if he runs, he will not only loose the respect of his Units (as he has admitted that by running he is defeated).
It may seem to be the wisest course of action but to do so would require of Amaris to admit defeat before even the first shot has been fired and it would also require him to admit to himself that he is not he First Lord.
A very highly unlikely proposition, considering his limited intelligence and his over abundance of ego.
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why would he pull forces off other worlds, when his forces could be Kerensky easily?
Dividing your forces in the front of an overwhelmingly superior force is about as stupid as it comes – they will be picked of piecemeal one at a time.
No better to settle the war in one massive engagement on one world.
Amaris’ ego will get the better of him as he believes he can out fight him in a one to one battle.
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The SL did die during the coup.
Only when Kerensky ran away like the whipped dog he is!
However when factoring in all the above information regarding the disparity in military numbers the entire premise of the civil war is now in doubt.
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The succession guidelines does NOT allow the military to pick who rules.
Despite everything Kerensky is still the Regent – and the Court of Law can still be reconvened – if the Lyrans can allow Adam Steiner as their Archon then I can choose any citizen off the street and say tey are the rightful ruler ……
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Again, your facts are incorrect. The numbers provided were before the periphery war. They were NOT the numbers used by the SLDF to hit Amaris.
How many army units are damaged if the TC revolt – part of FS 3 Army groups / The 3 CC Army Groups and 1 Periphery Army Group out of the entire 20 Army Groups – I highly doubt that even 1 Corps worth of men and material are damaged.
Go in to the Star League Forum page and have a look at the size of just one Corp ….. in all reality it would only take no more than One Army Group to pacify the TC,
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Now, the idea of having the rest of the SLDF fleet in one unit is where you continue to lose in a war.
Comprehension of information supplied ….. as stated above I said that all of the fleets will be converging based upon their original location – and that Kerensky would be attempting to coordinate all these fleets to hit a single world at a single point in time as they all will require different attack routes ……
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So any major damage to warships had to go to their secret locations.
How many repair warships did Kerensky have – remember the inside of this ship can fit an entire destroyer to work on ….. In space combat you would bring your own ship yards with you for the repair of the larger capital ships – as having damaged ships attempting to limp all the way to a secret base is counter productive.
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They may not like Amaris, but he was putting them all closer to the first lord position by removing the Cameron line.
Not likely he is a not the kind of person you would want to align with …. Then there is the discrepancy in numerical numbers …. Amaris’ forces should not have lasted a year …..
After the end of the war the rest is politics ….. not war ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/03/20 10:55 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still not reading the responses I see. I said Amaris did NOT have to leave Terra to cause diversions to the advancing SLDF. Just having a few troopers make some noise would pull of units to hunt them down. You say splitting in the face of them would be suicide, as they would overwhelm you, but doesn't that mean they split up to find your units? You have less to deal with as long as those other units are hunting the diversions. Oh yeah. That isn't a legit tactic.
It is not better to settle it in one big fight. The longer you cause the enemy to fail in their victory, the more likely their own forces are to become angry and bitter. This in turn causes moral issues as well as fatigue. They stop working as a team and become the zombies you want. It also allows you to slip units out, to hit their rears or do other things that would cause even more units to have to leave the main unit to stop you.
With the SLDF, they needed to protect the ENTIRE TH. A single unit that starts destroying cities on other worlds, causes more damage to people believing the SLDF can protect them. These tactics have been used in the past and will be again. Hit and run with a few ambushes to reduce the enemy coming after you. But guess that tactic doesn't exist in the only viable solution play book.
The personal hatred of Kerensky does not negate the fact the SL died before Kerensky left. That is a fact for canon. The alt can have the SLDF perform a musical to entertain the RWR forces into surrender for all that matters. I don't know why you stop short of going to the base of all these issues. Might be just wanting to destroy certain people, while raising those that actually did the deed. Or so it would appear.
Apples and oranges with Adam verse the SLDF. But then you don't seem to understand how that is. The rightful ruler gave the title to a family member to avoid WOB from claiming victory over the Steiner archons. The SL did NOT have a rightful ruler to choose anything. The archon was done after 300 years of fighting, while the SLDF didn't have the war history to force a decision like that. They lost the entire ruling family to Amaris. The LC didn't. For the alt, you will do what ever, but it is not the only viable solution, and does open up more logic holes. That shows you aren't concerned about the logic holes as much as ripping on canon.
How many army units were hurt in all of the war? It doesn't really say. But given the fact the SLDF went from over 1500 warships down to what it had before hitting Amaris, that should give you an idea of what happened. And with the numbers provided by what the houses had for forces, the entire balance was not there. As said, Amaris had more units and warships then the IS houses combined is a bunch of bs. Someone didn't really look over the figures, or something else was really messed up.
And with the idea that one corp can deal with the entire TC shows a lack of understanding the need to secure and hold worlds taken. You can not invade a world with all forces, then move on leaving nothing, as the enemy will reoccupy it and rip apart your supply lines. The very thing you said the IS should have done against the clans. I think looking at more then a single angle or two will show you there is no only viable way of doing things. The quick and fast way seems to be favored for that.
I did not say they were partnering up with Amaris. I was saying they did not outright hatred of him as you said they would. Yes, they would use the means he used to whip up their own people, but in the end, they were closer to becoming first lord, without being the main target for the counterstrikes. As Richard pissed off a lot of people with his foolish orders, he may well have turned anyone that would have helped against the SLDF as long as he ruled.
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ghostrider
07/03/20 11:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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As a side note, this whole issue with the SLDF not being able to defeat the periphery without additional forces, makes me wonder just how poor the advanced tech units the SLDF really were.
They were supposed to be better unit for unit over the units outside of the TH area, yet nothing in the wars there even suggested this was true. The SLDF was supposed to be the best trained soldiers in the IS, yet nothing seems to support this either.
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Requiem
07/11/20 09:16 AM
1.158.192.25
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Two other points of interest:-
First, During the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War did Kerensky obtain evidence as to the locations of Rim Worlds Republics Outpost bases within the Deep Periphery and this was his objective all along. When you consider that he exited the Inner Sphere over by the Outworlds Alliance then immediately took a hard left hand turn and traved for two years to end up on a barely hospitable world you must ask yourself - why drive this for two years as what was his ultimate goal?
Were there better worlds to inhabit along the way?
Then when you know anout the RWR Ouposts you must ask yourself was his true ultimate goal one of these worlds - and yet he somehow was not able to find it and so he just gave up in the end?
Second, https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Defender_of_the_First_Lord
"After Sergeant Tanya Kerensky defended Nicholas against a bottle thrown by Draconis Combine Coordinator Leonard Kurita and was stabbed to death in the process, Nicholas awarded the hereditary title Defender of the First Lord to the entire Kerensky family. In addition to the prestige, this gave any member of the Kerensky family the right to attend any university or military academy within the Star League."
So why then did Alexader attend the Nagelring within Lyran Space if he could attend any University or military academy?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/11/20 12:35 PM
66.74.60.165
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The canon story seems to suggest Kerensky didn't think far enough a head to know where he was going. It is possible he was swinging close to the RWR to pick up additional supplies or even forces. It is also possible he was using scout information to head to worlds, only to find out they were inaccurate or wasn't enough resources to deal with the fleet. He settled for the Pentagon worlds as the fleet was about ready to come apart at the seems.
It is possible he was waiting for the house lords to finally end their little tirade and want to sit down to discuss rebuilding the SL. I don't know, as I have not seen anything on this, nor am I part of the creative crew.
It is always possible he was going to make one house pay, but couldn't convince himself which one he needed to do that with. Yes the DC would be the 'obvious' one, but how much of the information we know from the print, did Kerensky know? He could well have been pissed at the LC, since they were not really doing anything in the war, forcing the SLDF to deploy there, leaving Terra open for the assassination. It could well be, the intel figured out the LC was actively helping keep the damage to the RWR down, so they could move in. Again. I don't know.
As for attending the Nagelring, possible answers could include, it was one of the better academies at the time. He like the Lyrans way of doing things. His wife may have wanted to live there for a while. It could have been one of only a few choices that were open to officers of the SLDF. It could be from a personal offer by the Archon to have him there. It may well have been he was part of the intel network before he became a general and was spying on the LC.
Really. Why would the SL allow any of their soldiers to be trained by 'foreign' governments?
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Requiem
07/11/20 06:45 PM
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I agree no one knows why Kerensky’s “exodus road” veered in such a specific direction then continued in that direction for such a prolonged period of time – keeping millions of people and such a vast fleet progressing in such a manner must have placed an inordinate amount of psychological strain on the crew as well as the passengers.
Senior Military Officers do not usually do anything without a plan, if the exodus was ad-hoc then the question of food and water must be considered for the duration.
In the balance of probability I believe he did have a target world in mind and given the Canon maps at the time only the Rim Worlds Republic ships had ventured out as far as they did.
Also given the nature of Gen. not to appear in error I believe all records as to his true goal were destroyed so as to preserve his image.
It is too much of a coincidence in that the Rim Worlds established outpost worlds that far out and that the General was moving his fleet in a similar direction to that of the Rim Worlds Outpost worlds.
Did he fear that one day the Rim World Citizens on these worlds would rise up once more and invade the Inner Sphere – so under the Guise of an exodus he departed the Inner Sphere in order to hunt down those last remaining Rim World Outposts so that he could stop all future Amaris aggression at its infancy?
So are there Rim Words Republic Outposts out there even now waiting patiently to invade the Inner Sphere once More?
The Nagelring – Once a SLDF Academy ….. however under his bio. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Aleksandr_Kerensky
“Aleksandr Kerensky studied at Tharkad University, where his achievements eventually earned him a place in the Nagelring, which he graduated…”
I forgot about this but ….. Why go to the Tharkad University to get a place in the Nagelring if he has an automatic ticket
And yet what of the military academies on Terra? Why not go to the most prestigious –
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sandhurst_Royal_Military_College
“Sandhurst has evolved to become one of the most esteemed and famous military colleges in the Inner Sphere,…”
“Sandhurst came to greater prominence after Michael Cameron graduated from the college, leading it to become considered the best and most prestigious military academy in the Terran Hegemony and later the Star League, the pinnacle of the Star League Defense Forces so-called "War Triad" with the War Academy of Mars and the Military Academy of Aphros.”
There is a discontinuity of history here ….. graduating from the Nagelring would mark him as a provincial … restricting his access to many of the elite fraternities within the military …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/12/20 03:39 AM
66.74.60.165
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One reason to change direction is to throw off anyone that might be following you. It is a valid tactic if you don't want the fleet to be discovered. Much like a malfunctioning plane being tailed from combat. You don't run it straight at your carrier, as the enemy will KNOW where it's at.
One possible reason for having to graduate from Tharkad would be to follow the LC's requirements. Just because the first lord said they could go anywhere, doesn't mean the states don't have a say in if they go to THIER facilities. The wording may well mean those facilities that the SL owns. I don't really know.
It is possible that Kerensky was planning to return home thru the RWR. One possible motive might be to set up to hit the LC and DC for their roles in the RWR issues.
He may have also been using maps that were done ages before hand, and said certain worlds were habitable, and it turns out they weren't when he went there.
I believe he just went hoping to find something. It could well have been intel getting to him to drop all plans and head further away from the IS.
Nicholas might have had the concept right on leaving the combatants to burn it out of their systems.
Who knows. Maybe Kerensky went to Tharkad to follow his future wife. Stupider things have happened.
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Requiem
07/12/20 05:00 AM
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One reason to change direction is to throw off anyone that might be following you. It is a valid tactic if you don't want the fleet to be discovered.
Yes I agree it is a valid tactic – the problem is he only did it once and at the start of the Exodus. If he was attempting not to be discovered why didn’t he do it perform more kinks like that of a ship sailing in an area known to have enemy submarines?
Sorry but this does not add up performing a left hand turn once can in no way be considered a valid tactic.
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One possible reason for having to graduate from Tharkad would be to follow the LC's requirements.
And yet all he had to do was say I want to go to Sandhurst and he is automatically enrolled …. The same as if you win the Congressional Medal of Honor and your child says they want to go to West Point, they are in by just asking ….
Remember the SL can override or impose laws upon the Great Houses and as such the Great Houses Laws can in no way stop him if he asks.
As for his wife he met her at the Citadel – located in South Carolina USA.
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It is possible that Kerensky was planning to return home thru the RWR.
The are now colonists – there is no way Alexander is going to return to the Inner Sphere like a whipped dog – if he went out into deep space with no plan whatsoever and only a prayer you have got to wonder why?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/12/20 12:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not sure if they actually have a list or map of the exodus road, But it was said that he did zigzag the route to help throw off any pursuers. And how wide was the turn?
Did it run out a few jumps in a slow arc, or was it a complete 90plus turn? I haven't seen any of this, as I ran out of funds just as the 3rd edition of mechwarrior rpg came out. With the issue of them saying in that book the next rpg should be out soon, I kind of stopped getting new books.
If the first lord can just make up laws like allowing people to just go into a limited options endeavor, then there was no real diplomacy in the SL. It was a dictatorship plain and simple.
Also, the statement of no way they can stop is is incorrect. They did repeal a few laws that helped cause the downfall of the SL. The edict to reduce the house troops is the main one that comes to mind. So being a political entity, the TH part of the SL would have to work with the houses. Otherwise the picture you paint suggests the first lord could remove the houses by just making the law of him being archon/prince/chancellor/coordinator.
Why would you think they would return like whipped dogs? They made their point that the IS would fall apart without them, but more to the point, the return would likely have been a conquest of the DC/LC. Or possibly setting up the commanding officers of the SLDF as nobles and rulers of the realm in that area. With this, it is possible some of the officers were making headway to get Kerensky to return to reform the SL. There are other possibilities.
It is possible the anger of his treatment, as well as the events that lead up to it, disgusted Kerensky off enough to just want out. I don't think he expected as many to come with him as he got, So it is possible his initial plans were to settle an area that could handle say 3 million people, but not 20 million.
Other things like the place he was initially going to was colonized after the last survey was done, and scouts just reported back that is was no longer uninhabited. The houses dumping toxic/radioactive wastes on the world is another possibility. Then again, the fact that someone else might have been on the world lead him to avoid it, as it was known to the houses. That is if he wanted to be 'hidden' from the houses.
It may well be his knowledge of space wasn't that great, and he hoped to find something on the way out, but didn't. We do know he stopped at the pentagon worlds as the fleet was about to have major issues.
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Requiem
07/12/20 05:49 PM
1.158.192.25
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The military does NOT make the diesel for ships. They buy it from someone that does. So the fusion fuel would probably be made and bought from a local source.
And if it is tainted or sabotaged … ?
How does the military ensure quality control?
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Shuttles as a means of re-supply
Plausible deniability – if seen can anyone explain what shuttles are doing within an area of land? …. Perhaps a cover story is required ?
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The nobles have been able to hide things from their own house as well.
Still believe if the idea that if you are going down the rabbit hole during the Star League Age the first / second….etc item on you list would be Naval Yards, followed by Military industrial facilities followed by your secret army / navy ….. ending with nuclear warhead bunkers. The Star League Law was too restrictive not only upon the Great Houses but also upon the Periphery States. The only way for any of the States to properly defend themselves was with a hidden army / navy in the event of an all out war – especially if the war was against an increasingly despotic Star League.
I contend that the Star League and the First Lord were doomed from the start – forcing participation and then humiliating the state in question will only lead to a false peace … and a false peace leads to a false war …. WW1 … Treaty of Versailles between Germany and the Allied Powers (especially France) ….. and then WW2 …..
The same is true here War of Restoration …. Administers running the Periphery …. Rather than providing full membership only allowing the periphery states Territorial Status … placing foreign troops with multiple garrisons throughout your realm ….. forcing foreign laws upon the States …. Disrespecting local customs …. Etc etc …. It is a wonder the Star League existed as long as it did the First Lords were little more than dictators with a big stick, sooner or later one or more of the Great Houses would have manufactured an Army / Navy in Secret and taken the SL and the SLDF on in battle it was inevitable …. And in all likely-hood given the animosity between the DC and the SL (First Hidden War) the DC would have attempted a war against them in the event they were able to manufacture a sizeable army / navy to fight the SL.
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Stefan Amaris
When Looking at the Amaris War there are in fact two Amaris – one prior to the war in which a massive amount of logistics and technological development that is required to manufacture a minimum of 500 Regiments and have them transported throughout the IS in a means of starting a war on multiple fronts. High degree of intelligence / organizational capabilities … and who’s opening moves demonstrate a high degree or military acumen …..
And yet we are still expected to believe that he would go to war with the SLDF who is four times the size in Land forces and 16 times the size in Naval forces?
Then there is the second Stefan, portrayed during the War – The person who leaved whole worlds to die of starvation, uses nuclear weapons for a scorched earth policy, decides to executes his generals and their family when they disobey him …. The complete megalomaniac, psychotic despot who has no real understanding of war and has never served in the military ….
Sorry to say but I am not convinced here …. I have come to the conclusion that both Stefan as well as Kerensky were placed through the PR machine …. One to magnify the white the other to magnify the dark in order to explain the damage inflicted during the Civil war as well as the inept tactics … given the size difference in the military bypassing everything is always an option killing the head of the shark is very easy
Sorry to say but upon reading the civil war I have more questions that cannot be answered and make little sense as to what is occurring …. In my opinion ego and a lack of tactical imagination is real the reason as to why the war devolved into such a slugging mach …. And at the same time it would also require a parity in the number of forces, both on the land and in space ….. or the use of a technological edge by Stefan over Alexander …. And not nuclear, starvation or mass murder …. As this will only alienate all the Great Houses when attempting a take-over of the SL.
Plus I finally stumbled over an interesting page - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tanis
Tanis system contained four planets: Alexandra, Stacha, Tanis, and Talbot. Tanis was located in the Deep Periphery, near the Pentagon Worlds.
First Colonized in 2600 and the second in 2670 - Exodus 2784 – a viable colony that could have assisted Kerensky and the SLDF was so very close and would not be found until 2965 by Clan Cloud Cobra …. And what did they do …. Set out to conquer even destroying a city of five hundred thousand as an object lesson to force these people to become their “forced labor” …. And yet the Clans still remain within the game ….. ???
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/13/20 04:00 AM
66.74.60.165
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The military always has an eye out for issues with supplies. Sometimes that eye is sleeping, like most bored out of their minds people do from time to time. But just like buying the ships in the first place, the military themselves do not make them. The are bought for the military. Now it is possible that the first lord may own the company that makes the ships, but it is not the military doing so.
The light you see is a reflection of the moon off swamp gas I believe the excuse goes. But if you are concerned, the military can own the lands for miles around the property, like they do in the U.S at area 51. Not talking 5 or so, but a lot more. They are in a valley and the hills around them are off limits to all, and shoot to kill is very likely.
I don't doubt the SLDF was set up. I suggested that a few responses ago. The big thing is most house units had a poor showing, which really showed how poorly the house troops were. The fact that the huge army needed to drain the TH of troops to remove the periphery, which should have been far easier then any of the houses, shows that. The lack of help from the houses on the borders of those periphery states shows this as well.
It could well be that the houses thought to weaken and bleed the SLDF with the war. It is very possible the houses really didn't know how many troops the SLDF has. It would be smart of them to move the troops around once in a while. Keep the houses guessing.
Now there is something that needs to be looked into. Just how much of a tyrant was Richard's father? It may well be that the houses were not treated like whipping dogs, but were shown respect. Then again, it might have been only Kerensky that talked to them on the level.
It is possible that Amaris thought Kerensky would fall in line once the Cameron house was destroyed. Technically, he stole the first lord position, and since the houses didn't do squat, he would be able to push this. Or just take a few of the troops with him to hit the TH, leaving a majority in the periphery to finish that war. It is obvious he knew a lot when he set this up. Not sure how long he had to do so, as the timing of the periphery war was not something he could have reliably predicted. It could well be that he had someone whisper into the ears of the house lords to force the issue.
He ego may be what really caused his downfall. Once he was on the throne, he thought he was the only one in the SL that could do anything. Order anyone's death for the fun of it. And that is where he lost it all.
The idea of the developers making one the good guy and the other the bad guy is what every story does. This is set up so people lolthe Amaris for destroying the SL. I think he was the last straw. The idea Richard thought he could wave his hand and make things happen, could very well have been the point where the house lords were done.
Understand that the background of the clans, as well as others, were put in after the release of that force into the game. There was very little on the invading clans when they were put into the public, and for those that stayed home, were even less known. But that does highlight the clans issues with society that isn't their own.
The clans were the bad guy for that era, and still are. They have to do something to make them hated, otherwise, people would root for them instead of the IS.
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ghostrider
07/13/20 04:17 AM
66.74.60.165
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You may want to read the Stephen Amaris entry in the wiki. It would explain HOW Amaris was able to get the huge numbers of machines for his troops.
It may explain more of what and why things happened.
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Requiem
07/13/20 10:18 AM
1.158.192.25
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issues with supplies
Logistics is one of the key elements to any military – there is never going to be a time when the military will drop the ball on this !
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buying the ships in the first place
Highly specialized – requiring experts – and a massive amount of stages to go through prior to the plans being approved and construction starting.
Suggest google this topic.
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the military can own the lands for miles around the property,
And this point becomes pointless post Exodus with regards to SLDF bases ….they are known by the civilians of the area to exist and the SLDF are gone …. Time to get a ground penetrating radar and go hunting!
The only way they can be kept safe is if no civilian knows of their existence to start with.
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The big thing is most house units had a poor showing, which really showed how poorly the house troops were.
Have a look at the Hidden Wars – especially with House Kurita – and then look as some of the engagements between the SLDF and House Units – Majority of the time it is only numbers that sway the battle ….
So House units were in no way the SLDF’s inferiors.
And yes that Houses knew exactly the number of units the SLDF had – each army was assigned a dedicated area and each House was able to gain an very accurate picture of their SLDF garrison forces.
The SLDF did not move them as they didn’t have to their sheer size alone limits the adventurism of any House.
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Just how much of a tyrant was Richard's father?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Third_Hidden_War
“the First Lord put aside diplomacy and ordered the SLDF to shoot on sight any unmarked and unresponsive soldier, vehicle or ship.”
“With the Council Lords refusing to put aside their differences and barely acknowledging his authority…”
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It is possible that Amaris thought Kerensky would fall in line once the Cameron house was destroyed.
Where is Kerensky’s psychological report as to what he would do next ….?
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Once he was on the throne, he thought he was the only one in the SL that could do anything. Order anyone's death for the fun of it. And that is where he lost it all.
This is exactly how the canon version of Stefan is written ……
And this is where it also cannot be considered viable. Upon analysis as written the entire preamble as to how the Amaris – Kerensky Civil war kicked off cannot be considered to be accurate.
Take for example the information contained in House Amaris ….. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/House_Amaris
Yet all Amaris lords (on record) between approximately 2550 and 2780, both enlightened and treacherous, tended towards the traits listed below (traits are listed most common to least common.
• paranoia
• pragmatism
• arrogance
• jealousy
• resentment
• two-faced behavior
• cunning
• ambition
Though rarer, very villainous members of House Amaris also featured these traits:
• sadism
• Machiavellian intrigue
If this were true then Kerensky (as regent) would never have allowed Sefan (8 years old and onwards) to be within 100Km of Richard let alone in his presence!
And then under – Ability to wage war ….
he average subject of House Amaris had:
• moderate education
• moderate standard of living (if you work, you are taken care of)
• few possessions
• little freedom
This statement does not work on multiple levels –Economics / Military Production Requirements – the necessary funds / education required to build the shadow army is astronomical as it was well over 500 Regiments; The ships to transport them; as well as over 300 Warships (and just one Battleship ???????) – this can only be achieved with a very highly educated workforce with a very highly technological state.
Sorry to say but many of the underlying canon assumptions in regards to the Rim Worlds Territorial State do not work – for the size and complexity of the military in question required for the Amaris – Kerensky Civil War these assumption must be completely re-written …. As is it little more than a farce …. The preamble does not provide the proof that enables the first chapter to be considered accurate in any shape or form.
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Understand that the background of the clans, as well as others, were put in after the release of that force into the game.
Once again no editor in chief? …. When compared to Warhammer 40K? …. Not good.
As for the Clans being the Bad Guy …. How will they be seen by future players?
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You may want to read the Stephen Amaris entry in the wiki. It would explain HOW Amaris was able to get the huge numbers of machines for his troops.
Still cannot find this information, where is it exactly?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/13/20 01:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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A big point about the military owning land and having unknown shuttles being used. Post exodus, the shuttles would not be flying in the area anymore, so locating where it was landing might be an issue. It could well have been a grounded dropship that was set up to allow them to land on a platform.
Kerensky was a career soldier. Even though Richard was killed, who was the next in line to command the SLDF? Kerensky was the general of the SLDF, but not the only that handed down what was to be done. There were more in the chain of command, as they were the ones to give out what needed to be done, then handed it to Kerensky to provide details on HOW it should be done. So destroy the enemy would be handed to him, and he would work out ways to do so. He did not just decide that today the DC needed to be destroyed. Reaction to issues like a base being attacked is different then deciding to punish the coordinator for threatening to do it.
He persuaded Richard to remove all SLDF forces from the Rim Worlds Republic and to hand their local bases and fortresses over to the Rim Worlds Republic Military.
This statement would be part of how he got some units. Not sure how quickly they left the bases, but it is almost guaranteed there were supplies left behind. Damaged combat units, as well as new orders that were not set up.
As a part of his efforts to legitimize his position, Amaris called for a free election to be held within the Terran Hegemony to elect the Hegemony's new Director-General. The President of the Terran Congress, Count Frederick Oldenhof, served as Director-General Pro Tem in the interval between the death of Richard Cameron and the elections, which were to be held on 28 January 2767.
Person that Kerensky was taking orders from? Sounds like things kept running without the first lord. And it does suggest that the voting was under duress and rigged. It tells why it was questionable.
In January 2767, Amaris proclaimed himself emperor. News of the coup did not reach general Aleksandr Kerensky until May of 2767 when Amaris re-established communications and tried to gain the general's support, offering him power second only to his own if he would "become [his] sword arm and help [him] impress [his] word and wisdom upon the other realms."[7]
So around 4 months before Kerensky learned of the take over. And it would appear that Amaris did think Kerensky might actually take the offer.
A cornered Amaris realized that an understanding between him and Kerensky was impossible. He fulfilled his threat and entrenched his forces upon the planets of the Terran Hegemony.
And this is where he finally started entrenching into the TH worlds.
So yes. Amaris did think Kerensky could be convinced to side with him.
The information is under Stefan Amaris entry in the wiki.
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Requiem
07/13/20 06:19 PM
1.158.192.25
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Post exodus, the shuttles would not be flying in the area anymore, so locating where it was landing might be an issue.
Simple understanding of its glide path, geometry, understanding of the ground typography and a good ground penetrating radar as well as patience would say otherwise.
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Kerensky was a career soldier.
His actions during the Amaris-Kerensky Civil War would say otherwise.
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There were more in the chain of command
Who? The High Council? As discussed in https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League - During a crisis an emergency meeting could be called, and for a matter of great importance a Council Directive, or Council Order, would be drafted and put to a vote, with a majority required for passage.
Aleksandr Kerensky - Titles
Commanding General of the Star League Defense Force
Regent of the Star League
Protector of the Star League
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He persuaded Richard to remove all SLDF forces from the Rim Worlds Republic and to hand their local bases and fortresses over to the Rim Worlds Republic Military. This statement would be part of how he got some units.
These are bases, the manufacturing of BattleMechs requires a Military Industrial Complex that actually manufactures the component parts and puts them together …..
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it is almost guaranteed there were supplies left behind.
Supplies are ONLY left behind if the evacuation is rushed – in the event the unit has time to evacuate there will not be so much as a screw left behind …. As for military weapon supplies, damaged combat units as well as new orders – sorry but this wound never happen (not even in a rushed evacuation – all lame ducks are destroyed beyond the ability to ever repair / obtain spare parts from).
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And it would appear that Amaris did think Kerensky might actually take the offer.
And if he had completed a psychological repot upon Kerensky and balanced this against the question he wanted to ask he would have realized that once the Coup was completed he would be in an automatic shooting match with the entire SLDF.
Thus he should have factored this into his plans and placed an assassin next to him and the complete senior staff ….
If you are going to commit a coup then remember to take out everyone who may be a threat don’t do things half heartedly ….
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He fulfilled his threat and entrenched his forces upon the planets of the Terran Hegemony.
Thus he knew he was in a shooting war ….
However, this statement proves that neither Kerensky nor Amaris knew what they were doing – they are fighting as if they are in a 2D war; where as when in space you are actually fighting in a 3D environment. The idea you have to take out the outer ring first and move forward no longer applies. The entire war can be determined in one battle – concentrate your forces and drop on Terra right on top of Amaris’ C3 – take him and his C3 and the war will be effectively over – then just offer an amnesty / demobilization order – and any hard liners can then be picked off thereafter.
The idea of having a static C3 facility within a space war is perhaps the most laughable concept ever considered.
This is the problem within the majority of the Battletech Universe’s history:- the Wars are fought with a 2D mentality where as in reality armies and supplies can bypass multiple systems to strike and hold interior worlds. Mobility and the ability to counter mobility is key in fighting a space war.
Amaris has only 144 Regiments at the start …. Factoring in losses Kerensky would still have 4,000 Regiments (approx.) from which to attack Stefan – and this includes 1,708 Regiments of Mechs and 1,309 Regiments of armor / Mech Regiments – time to come up with a new story as the mathematics of the game does not lie.
If TPTB want a 2D game then the war of 3039 becomes an irrelevant concept and ships are only allowed to jump between the systems within the canon map to the maximum their jump dives will allow (they are no longer allowed to jump into empty space). However this will then require a new map for the Exodus to be established to identify the systems they jumped from one to the next …. And will have to explain each time why they didn’t colonize this system …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/20 12:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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Depending on where the planet is, in the case of the SLDF, the succession wars probably put a stop to looking for them, then the information was lost/stolen/deleted as well as a few other possibilities. It could well be, someone DID find more then a few of them, and realized they would have it stolen or confiscated form them by the government, so sealed them back up.
And yeah Olendhof was the Director-General Pro Tem. So this is at least one person above Kerensky in control of the military. It does seem the retcon did not match up with the original story put out yet again.
Not sure how the orders were stated to leave the bases. It may have been the long orderly method that would be most likely, but it could also have been a fast pull out that left things behind. Given a specific date to be out, would have pressures on them. Again, without a time line, I can't say if anything was left behind. It is just a possibility. Depending on how good Amaris was in conning the first lord, they may have well left a few things to 'pay rent' so to speak. Richard was the ultimate dictator over the SLDF at the time. Might be part of the reason he thought he could make the orders.
The idea that Kerensky might work with him, would also cover the possibility of the SLDF splitting as some would see the new government was just a changed version of the one that worked for. Loyal to the people, not the person on the throne. Also, Kerensky could possible have denied the working together out of fear his future would label him as a traitor that turned his back on the Cameron line.
Also, at that point, Kerensky was better protected from assassins then Richard was. Distance, and the idea that he might join instead of resist was there. Kind of hard to get someone to join when you try to assassinate them. And with the offer, he would have had security beefed up for the assassin when he said no.
With the 3d war, how many of the systems were destroyed that both sides would use in a war? It is very well that they had at least detection units in uninhabited systems around Terra. And with the 3d fight, the enemy can come at you from every direction. Simple hit and runs to pull ship formations apart, and take them out one by one is a tactic that would work well in this case. Granted, the concept of nukes seemed to change from the Amaris war to the 'current' time frame. Using the current time frame, the amount of nukes required to destroy warships would have left little to no room for anything else for ordinance.
And having a C3 on your home world is not that bad. You do need some localized C3 in the area of the fighting, so that is kind of a wash. But then the mobile C3 might only work with forces within a specific radius, as having the C3 in say the MoC, would be foolishly stupid for dealing with even the TC, much less the OA or RWR. So which would you mean? The main one that controls the entire army/navy? Or something more local? Temporary C3 might be a better term for what you want.
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Requiem
07/14/20 06:10 PM
1.158.211.140
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the succession wars probably put a stop to looking for them
The converse is more likely to be true …. The succession wars intensified the action of finding them …. For the simple fact they are pre-established subterranean facilities with who knows what technology / supplies in a nuclear fight …. All good reasons when it comes to finding these facilities.
If the Government doesn’t know about them the Corporation / civilian just needs to create a fake cover entry way into the facility (same as Snord’s Museum) and its all good.
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the President of the Terran Congress, Count Frederick Oldenhof, served as Director-General Pro Tem
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Frederick_Oldenhof
“This was just one of a number of ways in which Amaris and his supporters rigged the election, and resulted in him being elected to the post of Director-General on 30 January 2767, with Oldenhof having served as Director-General for just over a month.”
…. Fred only served from December 2766 – January 2767
Amaris Civil War commenced December 26th 2766…. When he murdered the previous Director General Richard Cameron II… so no, Fred does NOT have power to order Gen. Kerensky to do anything!
Also the Director-General of the Terran Hegemony has only one vote on the High Council – so first you will need a quorum of the High Lords on Terra to initiate the High Council …. Then you will need a vote by these high Lords, in which majority rules …. So Kerensky can tell the new “Director General Stefan Amaris”, that a state of war exists between them!
Thus the retcon continues ….
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The idea that Kerensky might work with him…
Really? He though Kerensky would work for a Judas? … he believed a career military man would break his Oath to that of the Cameron Family as well as to the Star League?
Delusional comes to mind here …..
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at that point, Kerensky was better protected from assassins then Richard was
…. And how did that work out for Morgan Hasek Davion … Taskforce Serpent!
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With the 3d war, how many of the systems were destroyed that both sides would use in a war?
This is the point in 3D war you do not have to use systems …. Empty space is perfectly acceptable as a jump point to the next empty space jump point until you are close enough to jump into the Terran System and kill the Head of the Shark
Worked with every exploratory mission to find colony worlds;
Worked with Kerensky’s Exodus;
Worked in the War of 3039;
Worked via the Clans returning to the IS; and
Worked with Taskforce Serpent as well as Victor’s support mission … etc. etc.
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And having a C3 on your home world is not that bad.
The C3 I was eluding to here is “Stefan Amaris” himself …. Kill him … Kill the Civil War – one head hunter invasion and the war is over!
So, really? You had best have them (C3 team) way underground as one jump in from a pirate point and an orbital bombardment latter and the entire C3 is now useless (Dead) for directing the war….. same goes for all regional wars ….. the C3 position has always been vulnerable, a point that the Clans have shown all too often …
If you are engaged in a War in the MoC – the C3 will be on the flagship – in all probability a Battleship – until someone wakes up and creates an aerospace fighter carrier that is … and wars start to move away from the stupidity of the dreadnaught / BattleMech as king of the Battlefield era…..
This is the problem with the Amaris-Civil War Kerensky does not have to take back every world within the TH before he can take Terra. He can take Terra first and then double back …. And in all likelihood less damage upon the TH Worlds if he adopted this strategy ….
So there needs to be a military reason as to why he needs to take back every world one at a time before he can take back Terra and Kill Amaris ……
And that is ?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/20 03:21 AM
66.74.60.165
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By empty space, you mean uninhabited, or deep space?
Now the point of Kerensky was once Richard was killed, his forces would make sure no one could get to Kerensky. Taskforce Serpent did not really think they would assassinate someone other then maybe Victor. I don't have the follow up books that tell what was up with that, so best guess is Morgan found out about an attempt, or so the assassin thought.
The reason to take the worlds as they head to Terra was suggested. To make sure no one hits their rear as they move up. The fleet numbers would suggest that couldn't happen, but as with any head hunting expedition, it is possible for a small number of warships to jump in and take down the ship Kerensky is believed to be on.
Now remember your ultimate fortress that had all the troops under one roof, then look at the bombardment statement. That is the very reason why such a system is a bad idea. To be honest, a castle or fortress isn't all the effective against anything that flies, much less orbital capable. The walls help stop land based units, but not much else until they are brought down.
And a stationary c3 does not mean that is the ONLY one you have and use. It is a major point for coordination, but anyone should know to have multiples. Just use one until it is found, then move. Suggesting a mobile one has issues. Anything on land can be hit by air or orbit. Davion using subs is a good idea, as most units don't even have floating ships much less subs. It can still be found and breached, but at a much higher cost to the attacker.
The use of uninhabited systems works well, when it isn't expected. It does give an advantage of most of the time the enemy doesn't know what is coming.
But this is a good example of the lack of jumpships houses have. Those wars should have had a jumpship in those systems ready to jump, or in the case of the SLDF, HPGs, watching for such actions.
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Requiem
07/15/20 06:33 AM
1.158.211.140
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Quote:
By empty space, you mean uninhabited, or deep space?
Both. As even if you had ships in the millions it still would not be enough to protect a single system from every point capable of jumping in if it is from deep space …
Quote:
Morgan
Morgan like Alexander is vulnerable to the unknown crew member. Morgan had poison added to his nightly whisky shot – it took a considerable amount of time and energy to find the assassin (and nearly uncovered the DC Black Cat Ninja they brought with them). Morgan was completely unaware of what happened.
Quote:
ultimate fortress
First, there is no such thing as an ultimate fortress.
The fortress is only there to provide protection until your reinforcements arrive and to sally out from if the enemy does something stupid.
As for aircraft – 1st you can create revetments that allow Riflemen / Partisan to move in and out to engage any aircraft.
As for orbital bombardments – if they can survive nuclear blasts they can survive orbital bombardments – then your aerospace fighters can engage the ship or you can use land based ship killer missiles. Then if allowed you could have a naval laser pointing up to shot at the ship in close orbit.
Quote:
And a stationary c3 does not mean that is the ONLY one you have and use.
It is if the C3 you are attacking contains Amaris himself.
As for other Military Units – if they are venerable – attack!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/20/20 12:30 AM
1.158.211.140
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Consider the change in the SLDF Commanding General Staff ideology ….
Crisis: Second Hidden War – 2725 to 2729 – The Federated Suns and the Draconis Combine are engaged in a full-scale war.
Individual: Commanding General Ikolor Fredasa fron 2707 to 2729 - Fredasa was dedicated to the ideals of the Star League and both a thoughtful and intelligent commander, but his personal loyalty was to the League as a whole, rather than to the First Lord
During the Second Hidden War the then First Lord Jonathan Cameron refused to intervene out of paranoia - plagued by prophetic visions of Terra Burning.
However, his Commanding General was becoming resentful of the way Jonathan's indecision over the Second Hidden War that he had prevented the SLDF from performing its mandate of protecting and maintaining the peace between Star League members. Fredasa began spreading the rumor that his sister, Mother Superior Jocasta Cameron, was planning a coup. Even though he was adamant that his sister would never do something like launching a coup, he became so enraged when he heard this rumour from the Hegemony Central Intelligence Bureau, backed up by troop redeployments ordered by Fredasa that were consistent with a coup attempt. General Fredasa was arrested, along with Bureau of Star League Affairs Commander Gregory Wallace and Revenue Director Brice Hinchcliffe IV; all three were tried and hanged for treason.
Is it me or does this read like the end of Germany WW2 – Operation Valkyrie?
Note at the end of this Crisis Aleksandr Kerensky is 29 years old (Note Aleksandr Kerensky graduates from the Nagelring Military Academy in the class of 2723) thus at this stage he has been in the SLDF for 5 to 6 years and is Junior Officer within the SLDF ie. He is a witness of the times .
Then let us compare Fredasa to Kerensky …. Fast forward 22 years …. Kerensky in now the SLDF Commanding General.
Crisis: 2751 -First Lord Simon Cameron is Killed – Aleksandr Kerensky named Star League Regent
Third Hidden War commenced in 2741 and concludes in 2752 – as each House utilizes Bandits to strike at each other to settle their grudges - as the death of Simon Cameron and the appointment of Kerensky provides the Council Members more free room to push their agenda of amending the Cameron Act of 2650 – thereby doubling the size of all House militaries.
Thus Kerensky must have been a Mid Ranked to Senior and finally the Commanding Officer during the Third Hidden War and one of the final orders of the First Lord to the SLDF to shoot on sight any unmarked and unresponsive soldier, vehicle or ship in regards to these “Bandit” forces.
And as Regent (2751-52) it appears very little was done by him as regent or Commanding Officer of the SLDF to stop the Great Houses “bandit” forces ….. turning a blind eye?
2760 - A nuclear weapon detonated on Demeter sparks a border war between the Capellan Confederation and Federated Suns.
“In 2760 Demeter became the flashpoint for a Border War between the Capellan Confederation and the Federated Suns when a nuclear device was detonated in an industrial complex on the planet; the device demolished the plant and killed hundreds, and as a result conflicts began on numerous border worlds as the AFFS and CCAF threw themselves at each other.”
So, where is the SLDF in protecting AND MAINTAINING THE PEACE BETWEEN STAR LEAGUE MEMBERS and investigating the use of the nuclear device? As Kerensky has now been regent for 8 years and it has only been 31 years since the last War between two Great Houses – that resulted in the execution of the Commanding General when he was told he was not allowed to do his duty!
2761 - House Liao's Sung's Cuirassiers invades and temporarily occupies the Federated Suns world of Lee. - House Liao launches an attack on the Federated Suns world of Demeter. - The Ariana Grenadiers repulse a Federated Suns attack on Halloran V.
Whist at the same time the SLDF - The 108th Jump Infantry Division defeats a pirate force on Albert Falls. - The 103rd Mechanized Infantry Division seizes a weapons manufacturing plant on Tainjin. - The 38th Jump Infantry Division rescues the president of the planetary assembly on Luxen. - A pirate force raids the planet of Joshua. The SLDF responds less than a day later.
2762 - The Federated Suns recaptures Redfield.
Whist the SLDF - An unnannounced training exercise by the Fourth Regulan Hussars on Cameron leads to a skirmish with the SLDF 210th Jump Infantry Division. - The 345th Dragoon Regiment crushed a "suspected bandit enclave" in a system not far from the Apollo system - The 298th Battle Regiment skirmished with an unknown force on an unnamed Periphery world.
As a Junior Officer Kerenky observed an idealistic Commanding Officer of the SLDF go to the Gallows over his belief that the SLDF Officer MUST place his personal loyalty was to the League as a whole, rather than to the First Lord the SLDF from performing its mandate of protecting and maintaining the peace between Star League members.
Then as Commanding Officer Kerensky did nothing to maintain peace between the Star League Members (Capellan Confederation and the Federated Suns) he has the SLDF performing pirate duty and other small scale operations.
2762 – Richard Cameron comes of age and becomes First Lord of the Star League.
In my opinion I now believe that Kerensky was no more than a Social General willing to go along with the whims of the House Lords than an actual General of any standing and with no idealisms or belief in the true mandates of the SLDF that Commanding General Ikolor Fredasa was executed for!
Then consider who Aleksandr Kerensky’s contemporaries, mentor and supporter were within his career ….
As Noted above ….
Commanding General Ikolor Fredasa, the idealistic General of the Star League and both a thoughtful and intelligent commander, but his personal loyalty was to the League as a whole, rather than to the First Lord.
Who was arrested by General Rebecca Fetladral – Fredasa’s deputy (it is a wonder she had no knowledge of the Coup in the off?) – and who personally hanged Fredasa (ignominy) and refused to allow him ris right to be shot by firing squad, as was his right.
It was also she who believed in First Lord Jonathan’s mental illness in predicting the destruction of the League and it was she who pushed for the construction of new fortifications and the completion of the Space Defense System. And it was she who recommended her aide Aleksandr Kerensky who could save the Star League from nightmarish visions.
Is it just me or is it the fact that a Commanding General who believes in apocalyptic visions quite a troubling prospect?
Also remember that she must have shared her beliefs with that of her aide, Aleksandr Kerensky, and he too would have professed his belief in them also in order to maintain his position as her aide.
I would also like to know how long she has been on her staff.
Thus Aleksandr Kerensky is not only a social general who says yes to whatever he is told – even that of nightmarish visions to that of the Great House Lords – does his psychological profile begin to sound as if he is willing to appease people of higher standing to achieve a promotion? – the belief that he is more social general than combat general is becoming a reality (in my opinion).
I now have even less respect for him! His example should have been that of the noble warrior and not the one who executed him!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/20/20 08:11 PM
1.158.211.140
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2729 - Fourteenth Army, VIII Corps - 160th BattleMech Division (Garrisoned within the Draconis Combine)
Second Hidden War – conflict between the Draconis Combine and the Federated Suns – described as an all out war between the two states – and on five worlds (Really five worlds is an all out war? – demonstrates the disparity between the Houses and that of the Star Leagues Military!)
General Rebecca Fetladral …. Upon executing her former Commanding officer …..launched Operation Smother – 160th BattleMech Divion assigned to the world of Royal
Their orders ….” Enter the disputed region, separate combatants and restore order.”
“…… among those from the 160th who received awards for gallantry during the battle of the beachhead was a young Captain Aleksandr Kerensky ….. “.
Thus as a young Captain (Company Commander?) he was well aware of the duty of the SLDF to maintain order.
As being garrisoned in the Draconis Combine for a number of years wouldn’t you think he would have a better knowledge as to how to communicate and understand them?
So in the far future when he was Regent why didn’t he separate the forces of the Capellan Confederation and the Federated Suns?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/21/20 04:12 AM
1.158.211.140
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2751 – April 3rd – Eight year-old Richard Cameron named First Lord of the Star League. Aleksander Kerensky named Star League Regent.
2752 – The Regent (Kerensky) and the High Council (Great Houses Lords) would have both have had to sign off on repealing the Council Edict of 2650 (limiting the size of the military each Great House was allowed to maintain).
That is the High Council (Senate and House of Reps.) are responsible for putting into action government policy and the laws.
The signing of a bill by the First Lord (or in this case his proxy the Regent), which is the final step in transforming a bill into a Law.
Question: As Regent why would you allow the Great Houses additional forces, especially when you have been fighting the Great Houses Proxy Forces since 2741 to 2752 in the Third Hidden War?
As Commanding officer SLDF and Regent of the SL who was involved in Operation Smother, as a Captain, during the Second Hidden War he would understand that the SLDF’s mandate is to protect and maintain the peace between Star League Members.
How does an unrestricted increase in military forces protect and maintain peace? As it is completely contradictory – an increase in military forces will just lead to an increase in combat and an increase in damage / death to the people of the inner sphere.
So what does this say about Kerensky when he signed off on the Bill during the first year of his tenure as Regent?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/21/20 11:05 PM
1.158.133.26
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Aleksandr Kerensky – Extract of Service Jacket
Born 16 December 2700
Moscow on Terra
Hereditary Recipient of the Title Defender of the First Lord
< …. Any member of the Kerensky family has the right to attend ANY University or military academy within the Star League.>
Rather than the more prestigious universities / military collages on Terra, Venus and Mars he chooses....
2723 – Graduated - Alma-mater: Tharkad University (3 years minimum) followed by Nagelring (assume: like west Point a 4 year undergraduate program.) (Age. 22) ….. (Thus did he enter the University at the age of 14 / 15? ... and remember to add in the travel time from Terra to Tharkad in this equasion)
…
Enlisted in the SLDF shortly thereafter …..
…
Assigned to the Fourteenth Army, VIII Corps, 160th BattheMech Division – Located in the Draconis Combine Combat Military Region
…
2729 - As part of Operation Smother – the 160th BattleMech Division was assigned to the world of Royal – the DCMS troops on Royal attempt to overrun the beachhead established by the 160th, but were driven back and then pushed offworld.
Captain Aleksandr Kerensky receives an award for Gallantry ….. (Company Commander at Age 28.)
…
Shortly thereafter he is assigned to the staff of the current Commander-in-Chief of the SLDF Rebecca Fetladral.
…
Rises to the position of Rebecca Fetladral’s Aid – what is his rank at this stage? – then consider that he achieved this rank from Captain in 7 years – Wouldn’t anyone say that this is a very rapid progression by any militaries standard?
…
2738 – April 21st – The Then First Lord Simon Cameron appoints Aleksandr Kerensky Commander-in-Chief of the SLDF….. (Commander-in-Chief of the SLDF at age 37.)
So let’s break this information down …
6 years regular service within a combat group; rises to the rank of Captain.
7 years within the Office of the Commander- in-Chief of the SLDF
And this is supposed to be the prerequisite time and experience to become the Commander- in-Chief of the SLDF?
Sorry but at this stage I find it reprehensible that a person of such limited experience is appointed to the highest rank. (Hence is he a political appointee?)
What would happen if you placed Kerensky’s service record against anyone within the Chief of Staff’s Office? In all reality their length of service would be greater than that of Kerensky being alive and the amount of experience within all the branches of the SLDF would be far greater.
At this stage I would surmise, and again in my opinion, that the entire Senior Officer Corp as well as the Chief of Staff of the SLDF would view this jumped up “Commander-in-Chief” with extreme derision.
…
Then when you factor in the fact that he refused to intervene in a War between two rival Houses – Capellan Confederation and the Federated Suns) – where a predecessor of his went to the gallows over the over his beliefs that THE SLDF SHOULD INTERVENE AND MAINTAIN THE PEACE.
How would the other Officers within the Chief of staff view him at this stage – as couldn’t you also surmise that many of the people within this group knew the then Commanding General Ikolor Fredasa personally and would take Kerensky’s inaction as slap in the face of his memory? Thus proving to them that he was a political appointee and the complete lack of experience is beginning to show through?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/21/20 11:11 PM)
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Requiem
07/22/20 05:52 PM
1.158.133.26
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rebecca_Fetladral
Due to Jonathan’s ‘mental illness’ Jocasta became the de facto ruler of the Star League …
“… Rebecca, who is a close friend Mother Jocasta Cameron (of the Benedictine Order at the Abbey of St. Joan in Scotland) … was provided copies of Jonathan’s “prophetic warning” letters predicting the end of the Star League …. and came to believe them as true (the same as Jocasta)…. and as such based on his sister’s (Jocasta) advice ...she was appointed as the Commander-in-Chief of the SLDF ... by Jonathan Cameron”
Thus not only nepotism ….because one person’s deranged dreams are believed by another to be true they are appointed Commander-in-Chief?
Result: Rebecca pushes for the construction of new fortifications, training of troops, and the completion of the Space Defense System …. despite the cost or the objections of others …..
Whist at the same time Aleksandr Kerensky is appointed as her aide ….. (entered service in 2723 and Commander in Chief in 2738 – Highest Rank in the field - Captain (Commander of a Single Company.) – thus after only 15 years he has the top job ….Why?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/2738
The timeline of events …
March 16 - Rebecca resigned as Commander-in-Chief …. citing fatigue from the constant controversy in pushing through the establishment of new fortifications, training of troops, and the completion of the Space Defense System …. Though in Rebecca’s mind it is to protect the Inner Sphere against Jonathan’s “prophetic visions”….
April 21 – Aleksandr Kerensky named Commander in Chief of the SLDF – by Jonathan Cameron, the same as Rebecca Fetladral ….
…. Did Rebecca offer to stand down in favor of Aleksandr because she convinced Jonathan that Aleksandr also believes in these “prophetic warnings”, predicting the end of the Star League …. and as such that he would continue on with the task of protecting the Star League from these “prophetic” dreams?
August 1 – First Lord Jonathan Cameron Assassinated.
So, once again nepotism (Jocasta and then Rebecca) … and again because of the same person’s “prophetic” dreams are believed by a second person they too are appointed Commander-in-Chief?
So what does this mean? He too was shown the “prophetic warning” letters predicting the end of the Star League …. and because he too demonstrated that he believed in them he received Rebecca’s endorsement for the top job (even though he may not have actually believed)?
So did Aleksandr use Rebecca’s belief in “prophetic” visions to get the top job ……
Or
Did he too actually believe that Jonathan Cameron’s “prophetic” visions were real and as such that it was his sacred duty to protect the Star League?
Thus …. The Exodus had nothing at all to do with protecting the Inner Sphere by removing the SLDF … it had everything to do with completing his sacred duty following the completion of Jonathan Cameron’s “prophetic” visions that became reality?
Either way from a layman’s point of view Aleksandr used two peoples shared delusions of Armageddon to obtain the position of Commander-in-Chief …. The fact that it actually came true is the same as when Caesar was warned as to the Ides of March ….. did it also cause his mind to shatter in the end?
And then if he did believe in the “prophetic” visions did this knowledge affect all of his decisions / actions from the time he was appointed as Commander-in-Chief to the day he died ….
For example is this why he did not intervene between the Capellan Confederation and the Federated Suns border war …. as it started with a nuclear detonation – flames – and he feared these flames would jump to Terra and in so doing fulfill the “prophetic” visions?
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/22/20 05:57 PM)
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