ghostrider
02/11/20 12:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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In 2974, several groups of archaeologists, historians, and anthropologists merged to form Interstellar Expeditions.
IE is almost certain that the Minnesota Tribe is in fact the Not-Named Clan — Clan Wolverine
How is this possible? At this stage, no one knew of any of the clans, so how can they identify it as Clan Wolverine?
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Karagin
02/11/20 01:40 PM
70.118.172.64
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I have someplace on one of the hard drives, what my group tried to do for better infantry weapons. I will see about finding it.
Thing is, the mechs are the selling point for the game, and TPTB won't change that. Thus no DHS for vehicles or EndoSteel, etc...no better IC Engines, yeah I am well aware of the fuel cells, etc...NOT better IC Engines, just different versions of the same thing. So while it would be great to see things change, we won't see that happen unless they rework the entire game from the ground up, and they kind tired that with Click-Tech aka MechWarrior Dark Age and that fell on it's face hard and fast.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/11/20 01:50 PM
1.158.235.15
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Sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology
Shielding and Fusion Engine Types
“Extra-light (XL) engines reduce the mass of the tungsten carbide reactor walls but reinforces them with an oriented crystalline plastic that creates a bulkier but lighter engine. “
Cooling Systems Heat Sinks
“The wonder plastics of the first Star League had a big hand in enhancing radiators. While these semi-crystalline polymers don't quite have graphite's thermal conductivity, they are dramatically lighter, allowing larger radiators for the same mass as standard Heat sinks. This what allows for "double strength" Heat sinks.”
“The Clans never lost this technology and they even improved it by making the material more crystalline, which makes for a more thermally conductive and physically compact but more brittle radiator.”
Sarna.net wiki Heat Sink
“Traditional heat sinks, the so-called single strength heat sinks, typically use radiators made of very thermally conductive oriented graphite.”
“Double heat sinks ….. but take up more space to operate effectively because of their use of a crystalline polymer. This polymer, similar to the engine shielding of XL fusion engines, is not as thermally conductive as graphite but significantly lighter and more durable, allowing it to be formed into a larger radiator for the same mass.”
Engine - crystalline plastic; and
Heat Sink - semi-crystalline polymers;
As stated above they are similar but are not the same materials.
Interstellar Expeditions
The Founding year of IE is 2974 – not the information they are taking about ….. in 2974 all they would have is a theory that the Minnesota tribe had a link to the 331st RCT who disappeared with Kerensky during the Exodus.
Fast forward to 3050 and the Clan’s Invasion of the IS, once it was confirmed that the Clan’s were once Kerensky’s SLDF Exodus units they could then link (consider the possibility) that the Clans are associated with the Minnesota Tribe.
Fast forward a bit more, to when IE obtains a complete history of the Clans they can now link (with a high degree of probability) that Clan Wolverine … the Not-Named Clan …. is that of the Minnesota Tribe.
The page in question is written from the point of view of someone in 3150, wher they continue to postulate that the Not-Named Clan / Clan Wolverine and the Minnesota Tribe are one in the same.
Ie. they connected the dots .... or were able to interview a Clansman on the subject and came to the same conclusion …
As per sarna.net wiki Sarah McEvedy and Minnesota Tribe ….
First – the timing ….. Incident in Clan Space 2824 …. Incident within the IS 2825
“In 2825, a strange but highly skilled unit using SLDF tactics, painted in regular army colors and bearing the insignia of the North American state of Minnesota ….”
Then there is the link between Khan Sarah McEvedy ….and her father ….. James McEvedy ….Lieutenant General James McEvedy, the last Commanding Officer of the 331st Royal BattleMech Division
…. Soldiers from the 331st became the core of the Clan Wolverine Touman;
…. the Brian Cache that contained equipment formerly belonging to the 331st RBD;
Then under sarna.net wiki 331st Royal BattleMech Division Notes:
“The SLDF Division's commander was always from the North American region of Terra, and its symbol changed depending on which socio-political region the commander was from. In the Case of James McEvedy his was Minnesota.”
QED.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/11/20 03:15 PM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem Congrats on posting stats. That doesn't answer or counter anything I posted. All you did was copypaste things. I am going to ask what was the point of the copypaste? Since TPTB aren't changing the rules to allow vehicles to gain advantages making them equals to mechs, we are either stuck with them as is, or home rules are used, which is what my group does, so again not sure why you saw the need to copypaste information ALREADY known to myself and others.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/11/20 03:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
In 2974, several groups of archaeologists, historians, and anthropologists merged to form Interstellar Expeditions.
IE is almost certain that the Minnesota Tribe is in fact the Not-Named Clan — Clan Wolverine
How is this possible? At this stage, no one knew of any of the clans, so how can they identify it as Clan Wolverine?
Checkout Bloodname Scenario Pack for Mechwarrior RPG, it tells you that the Clans do keep looking for the Wolverines and one of the biggest groups to do so are the Bears.
Now for the of the Clans...they might not care anymore, beyond the old boogieman in the closet thing, or as more of an insulting kind of thing to compare them to said, group.
We don't see the Inner Sphere powers actively hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris, so it could become one of those things that time and distance makes it pointless and non-relative to them to worry about.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/11/20 04:18 PM
66.74.60.165
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During the Word of Blake Jihad, Chandrasekhar Kurita would supposedly uncover a series of unconfirmed documents of questionable provenance that apparently revealed the fate of the Wolverines. Indicating the survivors who fled Clan-space—supposedly almost a fifth of the Clan's personnel[22]—indeed reached the Inner Sphere as the so-called "Minnesota Tribe", the document claims that in June 2826 ComStar, rather than losing the trail, met and offered the Wolverines refuge. Upon reaching Terra and settling on Mars, while many of the Wolverines were content to merely rest, scientist and leader of the exiled Clan's civilian population Peter Marillier forged a plan that would transform the Wolverines into a secret faction within ComStar — The so-called Blood — that would first aid then co-opt the organization from within, directing it to ultimate dominion over both the Inner Sphere and Clans.
So when did they suspect it was clan Wolverine?
Before 2900s. 140 so years before the Outbound Light found Huntress.
And with this, it seems it was this point that comstar decided it would try and take over?
And this should also mean that Comstar knew of the clans long before the invaded.
Edited by ghostrider (02/11/20 04:37 PM)
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ghostrider
02/11/20 04:32 PM
66.74.60.165
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Requiem. Explain this. You buy and install a double heat sink version of a fusion engine in a vehicle.
How does it magically make the double sinks not work, especially if it is the ONLY source of sinks on a tank.
Yet pull it out of the tank and put it in a mech and it magically works right.
The idea of it becoming weaker in a tank, then back to full strength in a mech (1 hit to destroy in tank, 3 in mech) makes no sense either.
There is nothing stating that extra materials, which aren't added into the weight, to be installed in a mech. A tank needs 1/2 the weight for Shielding stuff.
And with that, the XL engine is half the weight, but some how the XL transmission and shielding is halved as well, yet you can use the XL transmission with a standard fusion engine.
Something is very wrong with this logic.
The wiki does suggest that the 'Blood' unit in comstar, then WOB is suspected to be from another annihilated clan.
As well as this.
Emerging after the enactment of Fortress Republic, one of the more notable theories as to the origin of the mysterious Fidelis was that they were the remnants of Clan Wolverine fighting for the Republic of the Sphere. Those who believe this theory point to both the elite Clan warrior level skills in combat and ability to maintain Clan-tech shown by the Fidelis', as well as the near fanatical hatred displayed when facing Clans Jade Falcon and Wolf on the battlefield, unaware of the group's origin from an entirely different Annihilated Clan.
Edited by ghostrider (02/11/20 04:35 PM)
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Requiem
02/11/20 05:16 PM
1.158.235.15
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Karagan, have you read Betrayal of Ideals? The last chapter explains why the Bears are still looking ….
As for hunting war criminals ….. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Wiesenthal
Quote:
So when did they suspect it was clan Wolverine? Before 2900s. 140 so years before the Outbound Light found Huntress.
Uncle Chandy manufactured the documents to oppose the Word of Blake – protect the DC?
If I remember correctly no evidence of Clan Wolverine DNA was ever found.
Quote:
And there is no where in that area that states this was from 3150.
President/CEO: Dr. Naomi Wilson (Circa 3130),
Plus the maps are now updated to 3150 …..
Quote:
Explain this. You buy and install a double heat sink version of a fusion engine in a vehicle. How does it magically make the double sinks not work, especially if it is the ONLY source of sinks on a tank. Yet pull it out of the tank and put it in a mech and it magically works right.
Refer sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology
Sub Heading: Collecting Heat
“Fusion engines and weapon systems have cooling jackets hooked up to tubes carrying coolant which are networked into their frames. These tubes connect to the Heat sink network. Myomer bundles have coolant lines laced through them in a manner not unlike a vascular system. All of these coolant lines run into collection systems that connect to the heat pumps and radiators that dump the heat.”
Assumption – it takes the entire system to work correctly? In a ‘tank’ it doesn’t have this so it doesn’t work (less shielding 1 hit) – attach it to a ‘Mech’s system and it does (more shielding 3 hit)?
Ask an engineer for an explanation?
Quote:
…. Fidelis…. elite Clan warrior level skills in combat and ability to maintain Clan-tech
Clan not Wolverine ….
How long have the Wolverines been separate from the Clans by this time period? By now Wolverines would have become a separate entity with their own technology / fighting style – yes it may be similar, but similar does not mean identical tech.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/11/20 06:06 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Karagan, have you read Betrayal of Ideals? The last chapter explains why the Bears are still looking ….
As for hunting war criminals ….. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Wiesenthal
Yes and I have also read the Bloodname MW Scenario Pack, so it's NOT new information that they ALLOWED them to escape. So again your copypaste of states and random items is not explained.
And your point about war criminals...again we don't see the IS going after them and so again we only have a one-sided view of the Wolverines even with the recent info via the novels.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (02/11/20 06:07 PM)
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Requiem
02/11/20 07:01 PM
1.158.235.15
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I’m sorry you feel that way.
Quote:
they ALLOWED them to escape.
Then what happened on Continent Number Three, Gamma 1551 AV, Codenamed “Barbados”, Along the Exodus Road, in late 2824 was just the Clans just letting them (Wolverines) go?
Quote:
your point about war criminals...again we don't see the IS going after them
Sarna.net wiki Kali Liao
“She ordered the Black May attacks in 3062, for which she was tried and convicted in a Star League court and sentenced to internal exile on Highspire.”
So what is Kali Liao? .... Soldier, Terrorist, ..........
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/11/20 08:19 PM
70.118.172.64
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Thank you Requiem, I would not know what to do without your keen observation of the facts and your over use of the wike here.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/11/20 10:02 PM
66.74.60.165
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Do you actually read the posts? It doesn't look like it. The statement made above states the Fidelis is NOT the Wolverines, but another annihilated clan.
So there isn't factions in Comstar that would lie about something like this? Considering the Wolverines were supposed to have come out with more then a few inventions before they left, it would stand that the advancements above the League's would prove worthwhile. Oh yeah. Comstar never lies.
They would do anything to disprove they knew of the clans before the invasion.
But then Blake's entire life was dedicated to perverting Comstar to mess with the IS and try to take over. Oh yeah. That wasn't right either.
So having someone come in like this and give them that idea would sound about right.
And I would think the same faction would have killed off anyone related to the Wolverines as soon as they could. No survivors means no witnesses. It isn't like nuking worlds would be their only sin.
Tanks have used fusion engines in them with energy weapons, so it isn't like it is something new to hook up one in a vehicle.
And mechs don't have anything stating there is extra shielding in them for the fusion engine, but vehicles do. It sounds like they run motors to the wheels/tracks/lift fans, as Fuel cells supports this, when using a fusion engine. Now. Using just the sinks that comes with the engine, and no more, there is no reason why a double sink built fusion engine would not allow double heat dissipation in a logical sense. TPTB did this to make sure vehicles stayed nerfed. This is the inconsistencies that need to be fixed.
Karagin. It seems Requiem is not using the whole statement of: We don't see the Inner Sphere powers actively hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris, so it could become one of those things that time and distance makes it pointless and non-relative to them to worry about. to respond to. He left out the hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris.
He wouldn't be able to argue as much if he did have the whole context in mind.
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Karagin
02/11/20 10:54 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Do you actually read the posts? It doesn't look like it. The statement made above states the Fidelis is NOT the Wolverines, but another annihilated clan.
He is mixing up the novels and such and thus getting his "facts" confused.
Quote:
Tanks have used fusion engines in them with energy weapons, so it isn't like it is something new to hook up one in a vehicle.
And mechs don't have anything stating there is extra shielding in them for the fusion engine, but vehicles do. It sounds like they run motors to the wheels/tracks/lift fans, as Fuel cells supports this, when using a fusion engine. Now. Using just the sinks that comes with the engine, and no more, there is no reason why a double sink built fusion engine would not allow double heat dissipation in a logical sense. TPTB did this to make sure vehicles stayed nerfed. This is the inconsistencies that need to be fixed.
I agree they do need to fix things that they nerfed when they did the big tech dump and thought that would go over well. Point is vehicles should be using the ALL of the same technology short of myomers (and given that we see the Clans have their transformer mech/vehicles this might be possible). The idea that somehow they don't has never been explained beyond TPTB claim that if they did vehicles would destroy mechs is far fetched given the To Hit Table makes that NEXT to impossible, 12 areas to hit on a mech (not including the internals) vs 5 on vehicles and every side hit causes some kind of motive damage issue...yeah okay. My group, we give it a shot one day, built four vehicles each, two tracked (25 and 50 tons), one hover (50 tons), one-wheeled (60 tons). Allowed Endosteel and DHS. Followed the normal construction rules beyond allowing those two things. Then we ran a set of four battles, so a lance of similar weight class mechs, picked from a random pile of mech sheets each time. So after the four games, ONE time did the vehicle force win, if you call winning having one vehicle left mobile and still able to fight. But again TPTB want the mechs to be king, (armored combat simulator was a tag line at one point right?)
Quote:
Karagin. It seems Requiem is not using the whole statement of: We don't see the Inner Sphere powers actively hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris, so it could become one of those things that time and distance makes it pointless and non-relative to them to worry about. to respond to. He left out the hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris.
He wouldn't be able to argue as much if he did have the whole context in mind.
Yes, I noticed that he left out his whole point by dropping the real-world topic in about war crimes hunters. I could guess he was trying to make a point but the context was not there so I may be wrong. And as I said we don't see the Inner Sphere going after war criminals and over time the Clans would forget about the Wolverines beyond an objective lesson how NOT to step out of line and what lines not to cross.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
02/12/20 01:01 AM
1.158.235.15
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Why quotes: provide evidence to support your point of view.
Quote:
The statement made above states the Fidelis is NOT the Wolverines, but another annihilated clan.
Correct the Fidelis are Smoke Jaguar.
Quote:
But then Blake's entire life was dedicated to perverting Comstar to mess with the IS and try to take over. Oh yeah. That wasn't right either.
Jerome Blake
Born 2739
ComStar Formed 2785 …………………age 46
Died 2819 ………………………………..age 80, so a little under half his life?
Yes we know, pit them against each other until they are back in the stone age, then ride out like the knights of old to restore the SL in one big Blakean Theocracy.
Quote:
And I would think the same faction would have killed off anyone related to the Wolverines as soon as they could. No survivors means no witnesses.
How could they when they are not even in the IS? (No evidence to support the supposition that they are within the IS)
Quote:
Tanks have used fusion engines in them with energy weapons …. This is the inconsistencies that need to be fixed.
Please read: Refer sarna.net wiki Essay: BattleMech Technology - Sub Heading: Collecting Heat
Quote:
….. hunting down anyone who might be remotely related to Amaris …..
I didn’t think I had to say this but ….
Sarna.net wiki Stefan Amaris
“Kerensky's troops slaughtered everyone in the Rim Worlds Republic with the name Amaris …. “
So the IS powers didn’t have to, Kerensky beat them to the punch ….
Quote:
And as I said we don't see the Inner Sphere going after war criminals ….
As stated above what is Kali Liao in regards to the Black May attacks in 3062?
The Master – the “real” Thomas Marik – and his protege Calvin McIntyre – Circinus – dead world. They killed an entire wold just to get him!
Question – how many are still hunting for the lost WoB Units?
Do you think anyone is ever going to forgive the WoB?
How many Simon Wiesenthal’s were created by this era alone?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (02/12/20 01:04 AM)
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ghostrider
02/12/20 01:59 AM
66.74.60.165
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Let's see what the OPINION says.
All fusion reactions generate radiation... they irradiate their interiors, which causes problems when the reactor must be serviced or decommissioned. Because of this radiation shielding is the largest portion of a 'Mech scale fusion engine's mass.
Hmmm. This isn't true.
Engine Cooling Systems[edit]
Fusion engines also have their own integral cooling system in addition to their regenerative cooling systems. These other cooling systems are separate from the rest of the 'Mech's Heat sink network. Liquid nitrogen jackets are used over key components, which allows minimal engine operations without having to activate the external Heat Sink systems. Any more use of the engine requires the larger cooling capacity of the main Heat sink and regenerative systems.
Nothing in here says that the engines don't work in vehicles....
High heat levels can even cause the magnetic fields in the 'Mech's fusion engine to fail, exposing the 'Mech and it's MechWarrior to lethal levels of radiation.
Hmm. Radiation being a problem yet again. So far this non canon essay has shown to be lying on this subject at least.
The collecting heat doesn't say much. And honestly, that would not be the case with a mech that has all the heat dissipation in the engine. A standard Locust for instance. The 10 sinks are the engine only. Why could they run lines all over the mech?
And it still doesn't say why the double sink fusion engine only works in a mech. Normal fusion engines work fine. So why would swapping to a double sink engine not work? This is a logic hole. Not how much advocado toast Omi Kurita ate in a day.
Now it's time for the Amaris issue. Remotely related to, does not mean the have the last name as Amaris. One of the pirate lords was thought to be one of those descendants. Wait. That was in 3025 era, and the clans were extremely violent when they took him out... So 300 years later those with Amaris blood still lived. Hmmm. Guess the SLDF wiped them all out.
Even Comstar doesn't know all those that were in WOB. So who are you hunting for? Their names and faces don't do a lot when they can be changed easily. Are they scouring the periphery or merc units that got someone that doesn't reveal their past or 'forgot' it? Maybe they went to live with the Wolverines.
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ghostrider
02/12/20 02:11 AM
66.74.60.165
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There are, however, other ways the reaction can cool down. If the magnetic fields don't do their job, the plasma ball can actually touch the frigid walls of the core which results in the plasma ball "blinking out." This barely even scuffs the walls of the reactor.
So the extremely high temperature plasma does not do anything to the wall? I guess this is why nukes are nerfed.
This is a spectacular way to decommission a fusion reactor - a rampaging super-hot oxygen flash fire - but it is not a nuclear blast.
Contradiction in their own essay. The flash fire would burn more then just the engine walls.
But then the essay is an opinion. If not, then when did they change the rules about this? Another retcon?
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Requiem
02/12/20 04:17 AM
1.158.235.15
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Quote:
This is a logic hole
A House Rule(s) Requirement for you home game?
Quote:
Not how much avocado toast Omi Kurita ate in a day.
Which is none,
she is definitely an okonomiyaki for breakfast kind of girl, thought when Victor was around strawberries and cream ….
Quote:
the Amaris issue ….
How many generations should the SLDF / Houses go on both sides of the family before is vengeance is satisfied … ?
Guilty by DNA what a novel concept!
Quote:
Even Comstar doesn't know all those that were in WOB.
Records – WoB records + any other physical record;
Professional Media;
Social Media;
WoB Prisoners (Re-education camps) + any Person who had a ‘negative’ interaction with the WoB – must be interviewed + portrait sketch artist;
Obtaining Physical evidence;
Hunting those with WoB implants;
So,all of this information must be collated and lists prepared, together with photographs ….
Plus every House’s spy agency will also be on the lookout;
Plus there are individuals looking for the “Hidden” worlds;
Something similar to …. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
02/12/20 08:55 AM
70.118.172.64
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Requiem, I doubt that Kerensky got every single last branch of the Amaris family. Just as was pointed out, ComStar can't figure out who was in the WoB, so I doubt seriously that the Star League was able to track everyone down who was related to Amaris.
We don't see the whole of the Inner Sphere going after the Combine for the Kentares Massacre, nor did we see Laio wiped out after they used WMDs during the lead up to the Jihad and during it. So no, the Inner Sphere doesn't waste centuries hunting down anything. So no, the Inner Sphere is not going after war criminals.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/12/20 12:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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Hmmm. This is a logic hole is answered by A House Rule(s) Requirement for you home game?
The arguments put forth by you tries to exploit a few of the logic holes in the game, and yet it is constantly said canon doesn't follow logic.
Did actual posting of the opinion show that when everything is read, that story is far different then what is presented? Twisting words to make it look like a person is right.
I will say that the records of WHO was in the Amaris family and part of the military that was hated has been lost from not only time, but by hacking and such. For the IS, it is even more unlikely that the masses are going to bother scouring worlds, as they don't have the information to identify them.
DNA testing would work only if it were a few generations in. After so many, the DNA in the sample would become less and less. It will never disappear as some DNA for all males are the same as well as some DNA for women are all the same.
Hmmm. Given their shadow nature, I am sure WOB posted their peoples files on the network for the general public to see. Not even remotely likely.
More then a few of their operations would have very little to no such information being stored. And when they started to lose, a purge would have happened. Those hidden worlds would become the repository of all written material. And still something that seems to be missed, not everyone in an organization as large as WOB will know everyone else.
Then there is the issue that more then a few did nothing more then work shipping supplies and such, that had no involvement in the attacks that were done. Those that thought of, and ordered those attacks would be the most sought after, but not everyone in the organization. And this is where the moral stigma comes in. Do you kill them all, to avoid another rise up of the organization? Or do you just take out those that ordered and performed the actions?
The opinion essay was interesting in the areas I did read, but has more then a few issues as pointed out as well as others. But it is an opinion, not canon fact. I could come up with something that says the Star League fell because of an outbreak of food poisoning. Or a larger core would allow for a longer jump.
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ghostrider
03/11/20 09:44 PM
66.74.60.165
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Interesting material in the wiki under the Dire Wolf warship.
The Republican forces on the ground had also seized three ground based space defense weapons, and as the SLDF engaged in a sixteen hour battle that saw every Republican ship in orbit destroyed, the ground defenses added their fire to that of the Republican navy. The Enterprise was destroyed during this battle, having taken significant damage from the ground-based defenses
This suggests that ground batteries were used in the Star League, yet some how, is impossible to have set up naval weapons to fire at ships in orbit.
So is the fluff for the warship wrong, and therefore needs to be listed as such?
Or should the rules for making ground based naval weapons have been made?
If they were in space, and controlled from the ground, those weapons would have been destroyed when they opened fire on the SL ships. As this is not the case, nor was there any overrides mentioned to shut them down, it would mean they were manually fired from the ground.
Edited by ghostrider (03/11/20 09:45 PM)
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ghostrider
04/08/20 12:40 PM
66.74.60.165
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Playing the HBS video game, BattleTech, I realized something that I would like explained.
The spinners of the Jumpship in the game are never retracted, but remain spread out during the jump.
Is this the way it is supposed to be? Or did they just ignore that little detail.
And yes, they show a recharge and jump in 2 game days, but do it to move the game forward, as the running costs are horrible when you first start playing.
But the spinner problem comes out as the discussion of the K-F boom issue with dropships having to be contained in them.
It looks like they are spread out much further then even the largest dropships would be, The idea of making some ships that can be stacked on really comes to the forefront with seeing this. The Argo isn't what I am talking about, but it does show it can be done.
Given the age, ever 3025, they should have been able to upgrade jump computers to be able to calculate the extra weight and mass that would come from this. It is far less weight and mass to have even 5 Leopards stacked on each other, then a single Behemoth dropship, filled with supplies.
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ghostrider
08/01/20 02:59 AM
66.74.60.165
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Another question has come up, and I could use some answers.
From all the factories around the IS and periphery, did the SL have thousands of factories that produced a single mech type, and limited to say 20 or so a year? I honestly don't see them making more, as the sheer amount should replenish the entire SLDF in a year otherwise. I can understand some research facilities being thought as just a mech producer, but I just can't seem to get a solution with this.
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Requiem
08/01/20 05:21 AM
1.158.133.26
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From a mathematical perspective …..
The SLDF consists of 1,062 Regiments of BattleMechs (including VTOL) thus there is 197,532 Operational Line Mechs in the SLDF – then when you factor in Academies / special forces that are off book this equates to over 200,000 BattleMechs all requiring spare parts etc
Assume 50 BattleMech designs (including LAMs) in operation at any one time – that equates to 4,000 BattleMechs to be serviced / replaced etc per design – and if there are only 25 designs at one time = 8,000 per design
Then there is replacing old designs with new models …. Even with a service life of 25 years per design … this still equates to a vast amount of spare parts etc.
Then there is the issue of service life of individual combat vehicle, assume 5 years and then scrapped for a new one? …. At 4,000 per design that’s 800 new Mechs per year minimum that may require to be exchanged new for old
Then there is the issue of war – mass replacement to retain the military numbers – depends upon loss depletion report numbers as to the expected numbers …..
During the Amaris / Kerensky War over 90% were destroyed and were never able to be recovered …..
Thus the number of factories available per design depend s upon quantity number that can be produced per year
1 factory = 800 per year
2 factories = 400 per year each
4 factories = 200 per year each
Then there will have to be lines that just produce spare parts so there could be 2 additional factories that just manufacture these .
Thus for the Light mechs there could be just 2 factories – however as the tonnage increase so too will the time required to manufacture – so that Assault ‘Mechs could have 8 factories to maintain the quota of 800 per year – thus the total number of factories would equate to be around the 350 Mark – for just BattleMechs
Then there are all the other services
Armor
Aerospace
Conventional Fighters
Dropships
JumpShips
Warships - parts alone there could be hundreds of suppliers
Infantry – this is were the number really starts to increase quickly when you consider everything an infantryman requires to keep operational;
Food / water
Munitions etc.
Thus yes, to keep the SLDF operational with everything that is required you will be looking at thousands of factories each with their own supply requirements and logistics requirements …..
This is why the Accounting / logistics requirements of the military are so very important …. Something that is always overlooked !
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Wick
08/03/20 10:28 AM
173.247.25.195
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Do you mean service life or construction timeframe? Because most SL-era mechs were both built and used for way more than 25 years.
Just looking at the Mechs active in regular army in 2767 (90 designs), the average length of construction (limited to 2571-2767period) was 101 years per the data I collected for my RAT. Some built prior to 2571 that would lengthen this period. And the Royal units would add many more designs (though most at a shorter period.) I'm not saying my numbers are canon, but are based on canon so they're a reasonable estimate. 50 designs at 25 years of use per design is way underestimated though. More designs helps your argument for more factories, but the length of construction time hurts - and the average service time must be longer than construction timeframe (very few units are retired the last year of construction.)
And with few wars during the Star League era, most units wouldn't need more than routine maintenance. For the two big wars (Reunification at the start and the liberation of Terran Hegemony at the end), the SLDF spent a few years amassing supplies and material before advancing. But between 2597 and 2767 there wouldn't need to be as many spare parts needed.
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ghostrider
08/03/20 12:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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That is why I was asking if the SL used small manufacturing facilies instead of a few like Defiance. So many seem to be found, and the numbers of what the SL had, makes me wonder about the size of each factory.
It just seems there are far to many factories spread around the IS and Periphery to more then cover replacement units as well as making new regiments. Maybe I am just getting my information wrong. This is why I asked about it.
This is not including the ones in the TH area.
Which the Amaris war suggests some can put out a hundred or more a year. I want to say the Jackrabbit mech is one of them.
Just looked up the Jackrabbit and after the Amaris war, over 500 were mothballed by Comstar. The first came off line 2 weeks before the Coup.
Edited by ghostrider (08/03/20 12:19 PM)
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Wick
08/04/20 12:42 PM
173.247.25.195
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I seem to recall reading somewhere that Defiance was gigantic even during the Star League days. Surely there were some large SL factories destroyed, but I suspect many more smaller ones. The majority of factories described post-3025 in canon produce 1 to 4 units, so this is probably typical of Star League era as well. Some produce no units and only export materials to other factories - undoubtedly there were many of these in the Star League as well. I'd suspect even more of this type, as after 250 years of warfare the Houses would have consolidated military production into fewer factories to reduce the garrisoning load. You probably had independent factories producing nothing but simple StarSlab armor in 2750 that just don't exist by 3050.
Production per factory varies wildly in canon. You've got things like the Banshee made for 10 years but 5000 made (500 per year) while things like Marauder II are a mere 24 per year (per Objective Raids, half dozen every 3 months). I realize Age of War and Clan Invasion timeframe are different but this is a huge discrepancy in the numbers of what is basically the most powerful unit in the game made by an Inner Sphere factory at the time. Lighter mechs roll off the line even faster - Jenners at 1350/year from two factories in 2830 for example. Clearly decent sized factories on Terra could produce 100+ Jackrabbits in a year during late Star League era. Probably way more than that since so many were destroyed by the SLDF, first on their way to Apollo, and then again on return to Terra. My guess would be something like 500-1000 Jackrabbits per year.
If the late Star League production capacity astounds you, then it should reveal just how devastating the first two Succession Wars were. I think the number floated is something like 90% of military production capacity destroyed and each House losing over half its military strength. If the Houses had the means to continue producing units as they were during the Star League without either the massive destruction or the SLDF to consume them, then they would have rapidly grown in size and strength but instead went the other direction - they actually did grow from about 2784 to 2788, but all downhill after that until the 3030s. (They grew steadily from early 2750s to the SLDF's departure, but accelerated afterwards for a few years until the War reversed fortunes.)
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ghostrider
08/04/20 01:22 PM
66.74.60.165
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Not astounding, but curious on the actual numbers of factories around the game map.
Defiance was huge in making war machines when it was built. That is not in question. I know Terra was a major site for facilities as well. There are more then 6 still in existence that Comstar has used.
But as stated, it seems like there are so many factories that are found, or were destroyed, the question is, how many units were commonly made by them? Something the size of say a super walmart might only produce say 10 a year, as they are not automated, or just complicated. But yet, some were suggested to make many more.
I do understand that games just love to put in things that don't really exist in the canonverse. SL factories is one such thing, as it is a 'very important' thing to find. But it still makes me wonder the numbers of what they make. There is no real size given for the factories, so is it just a small thing that does the 10 a year, or is it something the rivals Defiance for numbers?
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ghostrider
12/15/20 12:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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Seeing the new ship design with detachable sails, the question of how the sail doesn't get destroyed when the ship jumps if left behind, or that it isn't pushed into space and becomes a giant 'missile' in the jump area comes to mind.
The question of damage done to detachable sails comes from the old fluff in the official books, saying the sails were left by ships, and other ships could use them as well as the original vessel re-use them if they came back into the system.
I would also like to know if the sails blow away in the solar winds as without any force to move it, how the cables would move away from the ship.
The jump might push the cables/sail away from the ship, but then it should not be useable to the next ship.
The jump field verses the distance the actual sail is from the ship is a potential way of avoiding the damage, but I don't have the information on this formula.
Now this could have been answered in one of the newer books, but as stated so many times before, I don't have any past BMR at this time.
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Wick
12/15/20 08:10 PM
173.247.25.195
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I think there's three cases, and two are a little different whether a standard or pirate jump point:
Close: As I recall a jumpship can't jump with sail deployed or it damages the sail. If its detached but still close to the jumpship when it jumps, I presume the same backdraft of pressure would effectively destroy it, regardless of a standard or pirate jump point. Like you, I'm not aware of any formula given in the sourcebooks that tells us what exactly is the safe distance to avoid destruction.
Moderate: If the sail was the right distance (and its shape hadn't yet changed much), I suppose it could be propelled instead of destroyed by the jumpship's wake. Its debatable whether it would have a velocity to be a "missile" at a standard jump point, but with the help of nearby planet's gravity a detached sail at a pirate jump point could become fast orbiting space junk.
Far away: At a distance in which a detached solar sail is neither damaged or propelled, then gravity, solar wind, and light pressure are the deciding factors. At a standard jump point, a solar sail would only move away from the star if its kept taut. For a detached sail this won't last long. A few hours or a day or two. Its own gravity and lack of supporting structure will cause it to deform, eventually into a crumpled loose ball or hemispherical cup shape. Once crumpled up, solar wind and light pressure won't affect its velocity away from the star all that much as they're relatively weak (especially at jump point distance.) Its the difference between a sail boat with its sail deployed and sail collapsed. The wind is going to move one, but have barely any effect on the other. However, being non-uniform in shape will allow gravimetric effects and light pressure to cause it to spin in space. It shouldn't move too far away though so its still a hazard to incoming jumpships and transmitting dropships. A spinning object casts light and radar waves in distinguishable patterns though so dropship sensors should conceivably be able to detect and avoid it. And its still quite tiny compared to the total volume of space at the standard jump points though, so the chances of a collision remain very remote. Given enough time I suspect a loose crumped ball would eventually be pulled in by the star's gravity, but this could take centuries, millenniums, or even longer. A sail left at a pirate point would probably either be pulled into the nearest planet or enter a solar orbit and not be much of a long-term hazard but could be an intermittent hazard for a very long time if it were in a semi-stable solar orbit.
Overall I don't see much problem in detaching a sail. It doesn't terribly wreck the world for everyone else, and a jumpship can still recharge without a sail using its fusion engine (it just takes far longer.) The bigger problem I see is trying to reclaim a detached sail. Unless it was just released a short time earlier, it'll be tumbling through space, likely with cables hanging out ready to whip any ship or recovery crew that tried to get close to it. A crumbled ball 100 meters in size with 500 meter cables sticking out, gives a diameter of 1100m and circumference of 3455m; if spinning just once a minute, that gives an arc at the end of the cable of 57.5 meters/second, 189 ft/sec, 129 miles per hour, or 207 kph. That's going to hurt if you get hit by a metal cable at that speed. (Assuming it doesn't lacerate your spacesuit and nearly cut you in half.) And if you weren't using people, any ship near enough would just get tangled up in the long cables. I'd much rather just leave the damn thing alone and get a sail from a safer place. If it proved to be a navigation hazard, using low powered lasers beamed onto the darker side to cancel out the rotation would be my choice of action, but that would take weeks or months to enact, during which a sail is likely to be found from safer alternatives. Trying to harvest a discarded sail just dangling out there in dead space is a lethal pursuit in my opinion, unless you were to grab one just recently detached before a recovery effort became unmanageable.
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ghostrider
12/16/20 12:24 AM
66.74.60.165
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Any sort of speed that could shove the sail into another ship would be the 'missile' effect. No matter how fragile the sail is, smacking into a ship, or worse, a sail that is being deployed or has been, would be enough to cause problems.
I know that leaving the sail, if detachable, doesn't hurt the ship that leaves it. I was wondering about the statement in the older books that said the sail that is left, could be reused by others. This is the main reason for the question of what actually happens to it. But that statement was done BEFORE the new information of the jump pushing things out of the way when a jump occurs. Much like the concept of leaving garbage in jump points to try to prevent pursuit, like the exodus had done.
There is also the issue of if the sail actually does anything like crumple. Except for opening or reeling it in, there really isn't anything to suggest the sail actually moves. I have not seen anything of the jumpship moving while doing so, except for one time that one of the captains had a hoist have issues, and started rolling the jumpship to avoid issues until it could be fixed.
The older fluff had some standard jump points that the ship needed the keeper thrusters to prevent being pushed out by solar winds and such, while others needed to use them to avoid being pulled in to the system. Gravity isn't absolute zero at all the standard jump points.
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