Alt History / Thoughts re Clan Invasion of IS

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ghostrider
08/09/20 12:44 PM
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So when did the DC get ahold of that missile? It isn't like the FC gives away tech to anyone. The rules might suggest that all tech was handed off to each other, and this is one of the times I think the rules didn't follow what would have happened.

The IS has always been known to have people resisting the governments, even their own. The fact that more then a few were set up to do so is where they continue to fight the clans. Why the clans complained is they did not have someone fight on after a victory was declared in a few hundred years.
And this does not change the fact that there is no where printed, that the locals knew, much less had evidence, Comstar was working with the clans. And the house spies did not confirm it. So saying the house spies found out comstar was working with the clans is false.

The idea of some sort of freedom from people that were going to become clan property did not have any real strength behind it to say this is how life will be. Except for the Dark Caste, most only spoke their dislike towards the position in life, but were not about to rise up. The clan civilians would have seen such talk as desperation of people that were losing the war. Anything to avoid having to become 'civilized' by the clans. And no matter how bad it was, the civilians knew the clan ways were better then the IS ways. They were not about to stick out their necks at the time to try and challenge the clan leaders and ways.

Forgotten about? Chandy may well have helped the clans step away from their ways of not wanting personal things, like fiefdoms. It may well have helped accelerate the decline in following the challenges and a more chaotic ways of the clans. Not that I am saying was the intent when started, as the power of plenty does a lot to remove some issues, it does promote the use of violence to obtain things. It was the right thing to do, in order to get change going. It seemed to change the idea from the clan to me thinking.
ghostrider
08/09/20 01:13 PM
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Because the numbers I have do not match yours. The follow the setting of the game closer then yours do. The fact is, the IS does not have the numbers of ships needed to sustain a large scale war at this point. This is probably why the factories and such were left to rot in some areas. Basic resources such as food and water needs to be moved, with some ships set for moving the military as there will be raids and invasions. So basically, the IS is still scrambling to cover things with the few resources they have. I think there is some issues with this, but that is the general implications of what is going on. You said it yourself that the IS has far more resources then it does in canon. So talking from canon, your numbers are wrong. You bag canon with numbers that don't match. This is not suggesting alternate views. This is trying to come up with fantasy concepts to say canon is wrong.

Still not reading what happened. The FS economy was repaired by 3033 according to the printed materials I have seen. Which is how the 3039 war was conceived. So no. It wasn't 20 years. Misleading information from a lack of knowing what is real in the game print. This is a re-occuring issue with a lot of the complaints to the game.

Showing an alternative, and saying canon can not have happened is far from the same thing. You say canon is not believable, yet refuse to just leave it and create the universe anew. You constantly say yours is the only viable way things could happen, yet that isn't true, and it isn't showing an alternative. It is say canon is so wrong, it can't stand. There is plenty of things that aren't right, but saying only yours is the way forward is not showing an alternative. Some how, this is not sinking in.

And yet you suggest that all children need to see their parents, or their parents need to see their children. In the clans, most are not even allowed to know which iron womb they were grown in. So from the clans point of view, removing children from their family for a while is a good thing, not this horrible evil when leads to hostages.

As said before, the DNA of a complete sibko is not from the same people. And knowing you are from house Pryde, does not say your parents were so and so. This is why DNA is not used soon after it is harvested. Only in a few rare cases did the DNA get used before a few generations of sibkos were done. Natasha and Ranna being a fine example of that. Natasha was young when she left the clans. Her DNA was use to create several batches of warriors, but not immediately after she left. Figure 20 years per batch, so if one generation is skipped, then grand daughter fits for Ranna. This is a guess, not an actual fact based on hard numbers.

Comstar gave them the intel for the most part. They could have done some orbital scans as they were descending to attack the world. But there were no boots on the ground before the clan invaded a world. It was all a large drop of forces. Depending on how much the sensor issue was skewered again, it is possible the inbound ships could scan the world from farther out. It isn't like they haven't done crap like this before.

And now you know why the HPG network failed during the RoTS. No one entity ran it, and all that did, had their own agendas. Information from one nation could not be trusted to be correct in another nation. Each would have their own ideas of what could and couldn't be allowed to be sent in or out.

Research what? The fact that nuking a DC world would cause a rabid desire to run out and punish those that did so doesn't work in history, but does work in a time frame you don't like? The Jaguars need to be exterminated, but yet that very reaction would not have happened in the past? You don't see the paradox here? Not surprising as you are trying to say that the clan invasion shouldn't have happened, since it hurt the FS/FC. Logic is not something the works only when you want it to.
And worse, what happens to the warriors honor when the nukes came after the front lines were pushed back? Luthien got nuked, as we have not been able to neutralize the FS. The lose of face would drive most into a frenzy. Make logic stick in ALL situations. Otherwise, you are opening up the same logic issues canon has.
Requiem
08/09/20 08:25 PM
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So when did the DC get a-hold of that missile?



Yes it is like the FC does give away tech !
Benjamin Franklin “We must hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang.”
Concessions must be made in order to form the 2nd SL and the 2nd SLDF under the Command of Morgan Hasek-Davion.

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…. there is no where printed, that the locals knew, much less had evidence, Comstar was working with the clans.



This is perhaps one of the biggest fallacies within the Canon story.
If anyone believes that ComStar could keep hidden their sin, that they were in a secret alliance with the Clans to assist with the administration of any worlds they capture in favor of providing them military information – whilst at the same time initiating an information blackout on the world in question is beyond ludicrous.
One AFFC / DCMS office who arrived at the HPG station and demanded an emergency message be sent and subsequently got off world – there will be questions asked – if this occurs multiple times the House Lords Intelligence Organizations will suspect ComStar …. One ComStar person who decides to become a whistle-blower and it is all over …. Can anyone say with absolute certainty that every ComStar Adepts (100%) who has lived in a community for years and may have a vast number of friends and family would be willing to renounce them for ComStar’s orders ….?
An understanding of basic human psychology says otherwise ……history says otherwise …..
All it takes in one person providing the right information and everything changes ……. How many whistle-blowers have changed political history in recent history ….?
Sorry but to come out with a blanket statement that because of ‘pitiful writing and plot development’ it could not happen is again ludicrous …. Human nature and human experience prove otherwise …. It stands in my Alt. ComStar cannot escape a sin of this size utilizing every HPG upon every one of the Clan OZ worlds …. ComStar doesn’t have Gestapo political officers to keep their members in line by fear …. And even then conscious empathy will win out ….

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Anything to avoid having to become 'civilized' by the clans.



And the clan’s way of life is Civilized ?
Just looking at what happened to freeborn societies who demand their rights (that would have been codified under the SL charter of human rights and ignored by the Clans) – how many times did a Clan ruthlessly destroy civilian populations as the Mongoose warriors did to the Adder colonists on Marshall ?

Open Society (Inner Sphere) Vs. Closed Society (Clans) …. Historical imperative West and East Germany ! Poland ! etc.

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So talking from canon, your numbers are wrong. You bag canon with numbers that don't match. This is not suggesting alternate views. This is trying to come up with fantasy concepts to say canon is wrong.



This is an Alt Universe ? Yes …. And still I am told I cannot do it because your cannon figures are not the same as mine.
I stand by my calculations – my Alt. Universe will have all the forces it needs to continue Attrition Warfare / Gothic Line.

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removing children from their family for a while is a good thing, not this horrible evil when leads to hostages.



Really ?

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As said before, the DNA of a complete sibko is not from the same people. And knowing you are from house Pryde, does not say your parents were so and so.



Go to …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Aidan_Pryde
at the top of the page
… he was from the Ramon Mattlov-Tania Pryde sibko
Then further down a direct quote …
“I am canister-born and sibko-bred, from the Mattlov-Pryde genetic line. My name is not Jorge; it is Aidan. Clan law permits me to compete for the Bloodname of Pryde, which was that of my genemother Tanya Pryde.”
Aidan, making his claim for a Bloodname, form Bloodname, chapter 21
Q.E.D.
ALL know who their gene mother and gene father are !

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But there were no boots on the ground before the clan invaded a world.



Satellites and orbital communication are no longer a part of reconnaissance ? The communication obtained by placing a warship above a world – counting the heat blooms of Mech engines coming on line / listening to units calling in that they are operationally ready is no longer reconnaissance ?

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why the HPG network failed during the RoTS



Operational efficiency is not the point.
What is the point is that ComStar can be over-thrown and new regime put in …..

If ComStar can fall in the future it can also fall in the past ….

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Research what? The fact that nuking a DC world would cause a rabid desire to run out and punish those that did so doesn't work in history, but does work in a time frame you don't like?



Research that this idea of samurai and their desire for vengeance is so far off base it is not funny …… go back and read about the Ronin War …. And the Coordinators response to the First Lord as to Duels ….
A Samurai must obey they Lord ! However if their Lord violates the rules this will cause issues …. Watch Akira Kurosawa films at the minimum.
As stated many times Samurai and their code of Honor is complicated …
ghostrider
08/10/20 11:50 AM
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Blustering does not answer the question. When did the DC get ahold of the Killer Whale missile design? You are harping on canon, and come up with the statement, yet I do not see where the DC got the plans, or even the finished product which to set up on Wolcott.

That is why a shadow organization such as ROM is used to police the ranks. Few are going to go against the company, as they would be killed without warning. Those working in Comstar know this. I also do not know how far Comstar goes to brainwash those that join, so there is a little leeway for how loyal they are.
Now, the low level workers are not going to have access to the super secret missions or decisions the first circuit was have or make. They get the official line. So as much as it sounds like it would happen, the local clan leader is not going to just ask the front desk clerk that they need troop intel on their next invasion. Anyone that can hack into the systems will already know what will happen if they say ANYTHING about seeing such a request.
Another point, if the person demanding an emergency message be sent, it identifies that person for capture or elimination. So them getting off world at a later time is highly unlike. It is unlikely they will even live past a few days of sending the message. They have identified themselves as an issue with keeping things quiet.
And Comstar is not above having a whole message transmission become garbled to prevent such an issue from being found out. An explosion during the transmission time works. And yes. They would do so.

Civilized? Yes. Morally acceptable? Not so much. They do not bang rocks together and sleep under the open sky because they have nothing else. The raise animals and make things that better life, though distribution of the more luxurous items is restricted. They use language and have a government that isn't small tribes scratching out a living. Dictators tend to be civilized, but to things most consider immoral.

Read and comprehend. Something lacking in your understanding. You are going to do what you want with your alt. That in itself isn't the problem. Saying canon is wrong because it doesn't follow your made up numbers is. Something that seems to be really hard to understand. This, as well as saying your view is the only way it can be, is the root of the problem. If the game is that horrible, why bother with it?

With the discovery of the names of those that gave to make his sibko, which isn't all one set of peoples DNA, only the Mothers line is cared about. That determines what blood name they can go after. And yet, most warriors never know who their parents were. Most do not even try to get into the Bloodnamed tournament, as they don't normally have a sponsor. The grand melee is for those desperate and highly egotistical to believe they should be in there, and were unfairly treated, which may well be the case.

Where did they even pause to hack into satelites, or try to count the heat signatures in any printed material before an invasion? They had the estimates on numbers before they got into the system. It was later in the invasion that they set up bidding after issuing the batchall. Given the short invasion time frame, and how many worlds they would have to have forces near to bid on, there is not really time to do this. The Wolves had 2 warships. So how many worlds did they observe with them in the invasion?

We had that discussion about Comstar falling in the past. I guess ending several wars in Europe happened as nukes were dropped in the 1500-1800s. It happened in the future, so it can happen in the past.
The real reason for Comstar being removed was circumstances. It would not be done sooner as there was other things going on that countered doing so. And with doing so, One company did not run the HPG network, so multiple entities were able to bring it down.

So your are saying that if their lord says to forget an incident, then they are not to rush out and try to remove the entity that caused it? The fact with the bombardment is such a case. Takashi and Theodore knew there was nothing to be done at that time to rush out and remove the Saber Cat. Takashi took it upon himself to absorb the dishonor for not destroying his forces to try and do so? That is not saying there would not be plans made up to do so in the future, but at that time, they did NOT have the forces to even attempt it.
The use of nukes is yet another paradox in your whole view. They need to be banned altogether, yet need to be used because of a situation you don't like. And you don't see this as a problem. Must use them as they can't stop a warship otherwise. That is wrong. Wars are fought with one side having something the other doesn't. Germany having the tech and blitz to push Russia back, but in the end the numbers were what put the Russians back into the wars. So since Germany had the tech, that meant the Russians should have that same tech, or use things like WMDs to stop the German advance? They did have chemical warfare, as well as some biological stuff at the time.

Your statements of Samurai honor doesn't stay consistant. You can not run out and suicide one issue, and not do that same for the same type of issue earlier in time. The FS and LC bombed worlds of the DC in all the succession wars. Even during the lulls. The Jaguars were at war with the DC and bombed them. What is the difference between the two? One happened once 300 years into the future of the others. The entire first war would not have allowed any DCMS unit to declare peace under that premise. So maybe you should stop using your logic and comprehensive reading, and ask someone else to show it to you. It seems you don't see more then one side to anything like this.
Wick
08/10/20 05:25 PM
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This is why DNA is not used soon after it is harvested. Only in a few rare cases did the DNA get used before a few generations of sibkos were done. Natasha and Ranna being a fine example of that. Natasha was young when she left the clans. Her DNA was use to create several batches of warriors, but not immediately after she left. Figure 20 years per batch, so if one generation is skipped, then grand daughter fits for Ranna. This is a guess, not an actual fact based on hard numbers.



In an even more extreme example, Katya Kerensky is gene-great-granddaughter of Ulric. When Katya is born in 3025, Ulric was 27 or 28, not even Bloodnamed (though was a ristar). Thus three full generational-cycles pass in 27 or 28 years, or a cycle of just 9 years, not 20.

Though I personally think this is an example of the author taking too much liberty with the process. I agree a 20-30 year turnaround is more reasonable and thus author should have made Katya gene-daughter instead. But given their obsession that each generation is superior to the one before it, perhaps Clans are willing to waste a lot of genetic material on failed lines and, if gene-parents (or gene-grandparents, and perhaps even gene-great-grandparents) don't pan out as worthwhile Warriors or disgrace themselves in some way, are willing to abandon those cadets to lesser castes (or annihilation in some cases.) But in the rare case that the gene-ancestor does well (wins Bloodname, high rank, or high honor) then they know they've got Warriors who are multiple-generations better than that ready for combat.

So given this mindset and the canon example of Katya I don't think its as "rare" as you think. Ranna being gene-granddaughter of Natasha after a 55 year gap doesn't sound all that extreme, as its quite possible Natasha has several more generations of progeny than that.
ghostrider
08/10/20 08:57 PM
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The reason for thinking 20 years or so, comes from making sure the genes are superior, which it is possible one person in the line was better then the rest. Grand daughter would imply Natasha probably had a gene joining between Ranna and her.
The information here is based on Aidan Pryde, as it states in the novels, he genes were being used in the very next batch of sibkos.
It is also possible they skip one sibko, to avoid people knowing who their children actually are. Even though it seems more then a few know the genetic line, especially WHO gave their donations, it is supposed to be unknown to all, as it helps remove the family bonds that may cause issues.

The pause may well be just 9 years. I suggested 20 as it seems to be a decent time for children to grow and prove themselves. I want to say 16 is about the time a lot of sibkos go to their trial of position. I haven't really been up to date on this, so it is a guess.

Now for a question. Why was Cyril Ward still part of the military, as she was just as old as Natasha? They served together before Natasha went to the iS. It was suggested Natasha was a complete oddity, yet this would make it sound like she isn't. This is the person in the Ward family to commit suicide so Phelan could compete for her blood name. I can understand keeping the name until you die, but staying a warrior is much harder.
Requiem
08/11/20 09:40 AM
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Blustering does not answer the question. When did the DC get a-hold of the Killer Whale missile design?



Comprehension of the above statements, in regards to an Alternate Non-Canon Universe, will provide the answer to this question.

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That is why a shadow organization such as ROM is used to police the ranks.



Yes I agree that ROM exists.
However, currently there are also many security organizations within many countries – have they been able curtail 100% of all espionage / whistle-blower activity in their respective countries ? The Answer is NO.
As stated previously there can never be a complete estoppel to carte-blanche …. All I need is one ….

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It is unlikely they will even live past a few days of sending the message.



And if the “message” is the person themselves and a copy of all the documents they have amassed? …. LOKI or ISF could have smuggled them off world during a routine resupply mission.
ComStar is not above having their Adepts going rogue … just as all security agencies cannot keep 100% of their agents from going rogue …

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Civilized? Yes. Morally acceptable? Not so much.



Consider the definition of Civilization, this can include all ancient civilizations ….
Consider the morality of the Star League to that of the Clan’s.
The humanist perspective of Confucius and Aristotle have been set aside to that of a society that promotes victimization by the one minority class upon the majority in the absence of any freedoms ….
How many cultures have promoted this belief and where are they all now ….their societies have fallen …. and in the majority of cases from within … Clan Society is operating on borrowed time!
Rather than an independent movement by the scientists against warriors a more plausible action would have been the scientists and others would send a delegation to the inner sphere requesting assistance in overthrowing their warrior overlords …. that, or Spartacus arises once more from the Dark Caste backed up with a military that even all the Clans would have difficulty in putting down …

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The real reason for Comstar being removed was circumstances.



And what I am proposing is so difficult ? So what will happen occur when multiple Houses discover that ComStar has betrayed them by supplying military information to the Clans in exchange for gaining administrative rights over these worlds?

a. Nothing – as they are too afraid of ComStar;
b. Have a quite word with ComStar and ask them nicely not to do it again;
c. Privatize the entire HPG Grid;
d. Enter into yet another shadow war with ROM;
e. Put ComStar on trial and demand restitution;
f. Other .

Just remember in answering as a House Lord their actions have caused the deaths and destruction of how many of your units and the subjugation of how many of your worlds and the citizens who live on them.

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So your are saying that if their lord says to forget an incident, then they are not to rush out and try to remove the entity that caused it?



In order to understand Takashi and Theodore decision to order the DCMS to retaliate or not to you must understand the issues
• Hohiro was captured by the Clans and placed in Kurushiiyama;
• Yakuza Oyabun assisted his escape;
• In response, the warship Sabre Cat raxed the city of Edo utilizing an orbital bombardment.

In so doing both Takashi and Theodore are now honor bound to retaliate – the dictums of Samurai Boshido, the principles of Face and the House Honor would demand swift and violent retribution ….

To do nothing would be seen not only as a loss of face, by both Takashi and Theordore, before the Warlords, Generals, soldiers and of the people themselves it would be seen as slap in the face by the Jaguars to the Draconis Combine as whole!

The retaliation of which would be multiple assassination attempts by Subhash Indrahar and the ISF, The DCMS Senior Officer Corps and in all likelihood the Black Dragon Society as they have now disgraced their Family and their position as Coordinator of the Draconis Combine due to the loss of Face by not ordering a retribution strike to preserve the Honor of the Draconis Combine.

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they did NOT have the forces to even attempt it.



And what are Kamikaze and Nuclear warheads ?

They are not a paradox … they are the only weapons allowed by TPTB at this stage in the game …. If my PT Dropships were allowed I would suggest utilizing these together with a big wing attack of aerospace fighters … if DC warships were allowed into the game at this stage I suggest these …. And yet TPTB have backed the DC into a corner … this is all that they have to regain their lost honor …

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Your statements of Samurai honor doesn't stay consistent.



Comprehension of what is written and interpretation of what is written ….

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…. but in the end the numbers were what put the Russians back into the war ….



Winter !

Also compare factory locations and bombing raids ….

Also compare the inside of a tiger as well as the availability of replacement parts to that of a T-34 as this explains a great deal as to why the Russians had numbers and the German’s didn’t.

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as it helps remove the family bonds that may cause issues.



The Clans Warriors of Kerensky No. 1709 Pg. 12 – Please explain ….

- the use of “The Coursing” and “Thamzing”

Definition of Coursing – the sport of hunting game animals such as hares (in this case people) with greyhounds using sight rather than scent;

Defintion of Thamzing – public humiliation and torture;

- “Nicholas Kerensky would do anything to ensure his new society’s survival. Brutal situations called for brutal measures. The individual – at least, the non-military individual – would be far less important than the clan”.
- “The sheer brutality of the postliberation months prompted some within the Clans to revise their opinions of Nicholas. While they agreed that the warlord should be punished, torture and degradation went against everything they stood for. They feared Nicholas would become another Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse-tung or Stefan Amaris ….”
- “Nicholas feared (probably correctly) that his grip on the Clans was slipping, and flexed his muscles as ilkhan against the main opposition to his authority: Clan Wolverine.”

And Pg. 9-10-11

- “… remodel society by removing cultural bias … based on merit and ability rather than parentage. It is ironic that his descendants revised his intentions, espousing the superiority of select bloodlines”.
- “Nicholas created the ultimate meritocracy … declaring … If there is no unity, nothing can be achieved”
- “Nicholas Kerensky’s most brutal act … destruction of family units … encouraging fostering …”
- (Though in my opinion the most brutal act was to strip every-one of their ancestral history …. An understanding of where they came from except for the warriors …. That of their family name … think about this .. we have now entered 1984, Brazil, Clockwork Orange, Faring-height 451 and now the Hand Maids Tale – a real dystopian society)
- All of this for … “in the hope that trueborn and freeborn would form a harmonious society with no divisions”.
What eventuated though with the emergence of the Clan eugenics program 2819 and then on …
Book 1st Somerset Strikers Pg. 43 note this was written August 13, 3050 “…. What I have seen of the Clans … proves that their entire society is inimical to all the values and traditions that we hold dear. They have no concept of freedom, individuality, or self-determination. They classify people …..with the most stratified and class-bound societies. The Clans divide people into five castes: warrior, scientist, merchant, technician, and labourer. Each caste is ranked according to its value to society, as the Clans understand value, placing the warrior caste at the top of the ladder and descending in order to the labourer caste. Though this system appears to have the virtue of assigning everyone a definite niche in life, in practice it devalues everyone outside the warrior caste. ….. the value of each caste is measured solely by the worth of its function to the warriors. The labourers, who attend to the day-to-day running of society, are regarded as little better than livestock …. The Jade Falcons believe that anyone born or placed into a given caste is by nature suited only to that caste and cannot possibly function anywhere else. ….. Such rigid thinking, with no concessions to individual wants and needs make a mockery of the ideal of freedom held up by the ancient Star League ….”

This is the Clans ….gene-supremacy; better living through superior gene manipulation – and to all else who are not gene forged, iron born …. What of them ? This is not the Star League Defense Force ….

Compare these Clansman to a true SLDF officer …. Commanding General Ikolor Fredasa ….. what is best for the League rather than what they believed the desires of their First Lord (or Khan) were …. And remember Kerensy was a Captain in the SLDF at this stage

It is quite evident that the Clansman of the future are in no way a resemblance of the SLDF of the past, the are more akin to that of Amaris and his ilk …. Though they are so blinkered they would never be able to admit it !
Wick
08/11/20 10:51 AM
173.247.25.195

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I'm onboard with waiting to use DNA until at least the Trial of Position as well. But clearly at least one author did not so its established in canon. Though it does wreck any statements made that cadets test out of the sibko into lower castes - it seems far more common that their gene-ancestors fail, and they are excluded as a consequence regardless of their own ability. Developers really need to clarify the process, as you can't have cadets borne solely of DNA from two Warriors, when its clear that non-Warriors (at least not-yet-Warriors) are being used in at least one example.

Regarding keeping name and Warrior rank until you die, its my understanding that Bloodnamed Warriors are effectively immune to being demoted to a lower caste. The reason for this is that the Clan Council is open to all the Bloodnamed. I don't think they'd allow members of lower castes to vote, so in practice (if not by law), any Bloodnamed Warrior remains so for the rest of their lives. This would include bondsmen from other Clans. They could be placed into abtahka or dezgra units though, or remain bondsmen and unassigned to a unit despite officially remaining a member of the Warrior caste. I can't cite any examples - it just seems like the natural thing to do. Perhaps Khans or ilKhans can enforce a demotion though, but it would likely be very rare (and frankly a Trial of Annihiliation followed by a Trial of Reaving may be a better option in most of these cases)
ghostrider
08/11/20 12:18 PM
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There is the added issue of Comstar being quasi-religious, which makes it less likely anyone is going to work against the company. Also, those that might talk, would be restricted to what they could send across the HPG. It is perfect? Not in the least. But going from say someone in a crime sydicate, they are highly unlikely to reveal anything. The nature of advancement in the organization known as Comstar, would have their own co workers keeping an eye out for disloyal workers. It would be one of a very few ways they could advance within the company. Once you get to a certain level, politics is necessary to go further.

The lords of the DC are honor bound to do what they much to safeguard the realm. Sending out forces without any plans against something they still aren't sure how the can take it down, and would leave more then a few other worlds open to attack has to be considered over the suicidal charges that you are suggesting. And using nukes opens the door no one wants at this point. As the IS does not know if the clans will retaliate with nukes, or forget the batchall entirely and just bombard worlds, they had to avoid starting it. They did get revenge on the Jaguars, but it took years. The instant gratification is where problems really start.
Also, what you suggest would destroy any chance of gathering intel on the clans in general. As they also knew from other incidences on worlds, the clans would start wiping out communities if the assassinations came like you want them to.
And again. This concept should have happened during the first succession war. It didn't. So consistency is not there.

I will state it again. Get away from canon. You complain it will not let you have things that you want.

Given the fact that Sibkos start at 100 children and you are lucky if even 3 pass, there is a lot of failure from blood lines. I think an extremely lucky sibko was like 5 graduated. If the novels do any justice to what they go thru, it is amazing that any blood lines are still allowed.
The issue with keeping a military rank is having to go thru trials of position to maintain your rank. You would still keep the blood name from the stories told. Pershaw (not sure of spelling) was actually part of a solhema infantry unit when he was tapped to head the watch for the Falcons. So they are not as immune from punishment as it would seem. Unless the writer violated that taboo to write that part of the story.
Now here is something to ponder. The clans think suicide is cowardly, so Cyril killing herself might well be seen as her blood name being tarnished for doing so. The only real suicide the clans find honorable it dieing in combat, Yet even that needs to be seen as going down fighting, not just standing their to die.
Requiem
08/11/20 08:11 PM
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The Clans espouse human superiority of select bloodlines that have been iron born …. All other humans are inferior and as such must be subservient their lot in life is being their slaves …. Clans view them not as people but objects !

This is why Clan society inimical to all the Great Houses, those who fight for freedom and the true values of the Star League.

There is but one recourse; genocide of the entire Clan way of life – and especially that of their belief in genetic superiority through select bloodlines.

Quote:
Regarding keeping name and Warrior rank until you die



Demotion is not the issue here. Clans are not only based on race superiority they are also ageist (something that every author within the Battletech universe conveniently forgets.) As soon as any warrior is viewed as obsolete to the Clan they serve – named or otherwise – they will ensure an ‘honorable’ death in combat so that their legacy is not tainted by remaining on the stage for an inappropriate time, reducing the fighting spirit of their Clan and dilute their genes reputation – and as a consequence decrease its use in future sibkos.

If a warrior cannot take the hint Clan society is predicated on the belief of youth – if viewed as too old and weak there will be a circle of equals to the death !

Quote:
Comstar being quasi-religious, which makes it less likely anyone is going to work against the order ….



Quasi is a far cry from a true religious order …
And yet how many, even in true religious orders, have broken from the order due to their unethical nature and breaking from the central tenants of their creed !

Remember Blake’s creed is based upon the premise of neutrality - “Our goals are peaceful. We seek the unity and prosperity of mankind.” Blake’s transmission, 28 June 2788.

How can any Acolyte believe that siding with the Clans, and their sociology of viewing people as objects, (Book 1st Somerset Strikers Pg. 43 note written August 13, 3050) is in any way respecting the creed of Blake ?

There will be a whistle-blower, it is inevitable …. ComStar will be required to answer for their actions ….

Quote:
The nature of advancement in the organization known as Comstar, would have their own co workers keeping an eye out for disloyal workers. It would be one of a very few ways they could advance within the company.



This may sound plausible, however, Human Resource Management Practices based upon the predicate of informing in order to obtain advancement is counter-productive to an efficient and effective workforce. Unfortunately it has the side affect of individuals actively working towards politicizing the workforce, conducting active scams to destroy those they do not like in order to achieve advancement, rather than doing their job …
Anyone who has studied Human Resource Management will tell you this doesn’t work in a large organization whose primary role is efficiency and effectiveness in the workforce.
Workforce politics is based upon nepotism and the value you derive for the organization you work for – what do you bring to the organization that will derive sales …. Profit maximization ….

Quote:
Sending out forces without any plans against something they still aren't sure how the can take it down, and would leave more then a few other worlds open to attack has to be considered over the suicidal charges that you are suggesting.



First, there is a plan;
Second, how are you leaving worlds open when you are just using older more experienced pilots who volunteer, aerospace fighters and nukes?
Third, the demonstration of the will of the DCMS against the Clans through the use of Nuclear ordinance WILL cause all the Clans to pause and require a Grand Kurultai (Council) of all invading Khans and sa-Khans ….as to their response …

Lastly, there is clearly a lack of understanding Samurai, Bushido, The concept of Face …

Quote:
the clans would start wiping out communities if the assassinations came like you want them to.



How did this work for the Germans in any of the countries they invaded ? Didn’t work then wouldn’t work in the future …. Especially if they Clans decide to take children as per their misguided idea of fostering !

Quote:
And again. This concept should have happened during the first succession war. It didn't. So consistency is not there.



And yet any ultra Japanese society based upon their ancient values should have also followed these tenants – again a lack of understanding / research – if Samurai are brought into the game then these should also be a vast document as to what it means to be, their code of conduct, to be a Samurai, a Daimyo, a Retainer, even Shogun ….. even suggesting viewing multiple Akira Kurosawa films should have been considered ….

Quote:
Given the fact that Sibkos start at 100 children and you are lucky if even 3 pass, there is a lot of failure from blood lines. I think an extremely lucky sibko was like 5 graduated.



Thus the writers violated their own rules, how can the Clans survive in the IS given such a minimal replacement personnel – assassination / attrition warfare?

Quote:
the watch



Inability to blend into your environment leads to but one end ……

Quote:
The clans think suicide is cowardly



Research required on the title of Bondsref…… https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bondsman

A warrior whose personal honor would not allow them to serve as a bondsman could avoid this fate through ritual suicide known as a bondsref. Prior to being claimed by the victor and given a bondcord, a warrior could take their own life or have an accomplice kill them and so "refuse the bond."

And yes as part of a Solhama unit ….. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Solahma

….. aging warriors can serve their Clan to the bitter end, dying in combat - a death considered far more appropriate and honorable than dying in bed.
ghostrider
08/11/20 10:01 PM
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Genocide is a good concept? And you say WMD are horrible and need to pulled out of the game?

Part of the reason the Wolves started siding with the Crusaders is the fact that more blood named were getting up in age. Not necessarily because of pulled strings, but because they were able to keep passing the trial of position, unlike one of the Jade Falcon leaders that Vlad wiped out. To my knowledge Natasha's bloodname was never filled while she was in the IS, nor when she returned to the clans. So age does not affect holding a blood name. Military rank is more likely to be affected by age, but as long as you can keep beating those that suggest you are weak, then you continue in the military.

Get real. Blake had no intent of Comstar being neutral as he pushed to have all the houses destroyed so his vision was the only thing that survived. He only put on a false fact to keep from being wiped out during the opening of the succession wars. He sought unity like the clans do. One ruler, and all others follow the dictator. For a while, the clans were better in that concept, as it wasn't politics that gave you that position nor would you be safe because combat was always used for advancement and position.
Do you understand that the regular workers in Comstar was under the belief that they were only working with the clans to keep populations safe? They were not part of the group that was working with the clans to destroy the IS. Much like government and businesses today. They say one thing and work against it in private.

Hmmm. Older equipment tended to be use by the militia, which guarded more worlds combined then the DCMS regular line units? The equipment to get them into battle was more valuable moving around the best tech and skilled pilots to counter the other advances? Oh yeah. That requires more comprehensive understanding of tactics then just grouping everything in one large unit and going from there. You may not believe this, but even then, you can lose, and lose big time.
And there was a plan? You said they needed to head out and hit the Jaguars as soon as possible, since honor was at stake. That generally means no real plan, just reaction in waves.

What happened with Germany isn't the same thing. Germany didn't have something that would wipe out any of your transports without much threatening them back. Also, the IS did not KNOW what reserves that clans actually had with them. The Dragoon meeting would only tell them how the clans operated before they stopped reporting to them. They were NOT part of the planning to actually launching the invasion. For all the Dragoon's knew, all the clans were involved.

Go back and read where the DCMS was based on the Samurai. Based on. Not the exact model of it. That means they could change it as they wanted to. So until they say it is the exact same thing, the complaint that the DC does not follow your concepts is invalid. This is not suggesting the alt, but ripping on canon. No way to spin this so it isn't.

Another showing that you have no idea on how the game actually is set up. The clans do not constantly war with each other so they replace half their warriors a year. They do NOT make one sibko a year. But for some reason, you think they do. How about making 100 sibkos a year, and that would mean an average of 300 trueborns becoming warriors a year. And claiming bondsmen helps keep the numbers up for the winning clan. I do think they had a limit on how many sibkos can be done, as attrition is why a few clans were destroyed, normally absorbsion. And this is only for the clans that don't accept freeborns into their military.

Dying in a fight, verses just bleeding your self out in the tube is far from each other. But this is part of why understanding the game is soo difficult. Not much in the game is that rigid, where it is one way or the opposite. There are many shades of grey that are in there.
Requiem
08/12/20 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Genocide is a good concept?



Comprehension or a too advanced topic ? Sorry, will attempt to make writing concise ….

Original Quote:
“… genocide of the entire Clan way of life – and especially that of their belief in genetic superiority through select bloodlines.”

This is eluding to “cultural genocide” – which involves the eradication and destruction of all Clan Cultural artifacts (books, symbols, statues, artworks, structures etc.), and the suppression of cultural activities that do not conform to the destroyer’s notion of what is appropriate ….
Thus …
The eradication of their identity as a Clan as a distinct peoples, their cultural values and ethnic identities; and
Ensure their assimilation and integration back into the Star League culture and way of life – imposed by legislative, administrative or other measures such as propaganda directed towards them….
This does not include …
Dispossessing them of their lands or resources; or
Violating their human rights;

Example – Germany – post surrender to Allied forces by removing everything that related to the previous administration and ensuring an education system that takes responsibility for their past crimes and ensuring that certain irregularities, such as the idea of the super human through gene manipulation, is eradicated for all time.

Quote:
….. but as long as you can keep beating those that suggest you are weak, then you continue in the military.



Natasha Kerensky https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Natasha_Kerensky
Born 2973
Returned to Clans 3050 at the age of 77 years.

Can anyone explain how a 77 year old can defeat a 20 something when taking into account her decline in the metabolism and nervous systems … this includes issues with ….
• Heart rate;
• Bones becoming thinner and less strong;
• Joints becoming stiffer and less flexible;
• Cartilage and bone joints start to weaken;
• Muscle tissue reduces – strength reduces;
• The number of nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord decreases;
• Eyes become less clear and eardrums get thicker; and
• Sweat glands produce less sweat – problem when you push the heat of your Mech as blackout would occur.

So unless Natasha has access to the fountain of youth this appears to be somewhat difficult to believe.

Quote:
Blake had no intent of Comstar being neutral as he pushed to have all the houses destroyed so his vision was the only thing that survived.



Question: Who was to destroy all the Great Houses?
Answer: The Great Houses themselves.
Question: What was Comstar’s remit whilst the Great Houses destroyed themselves?
Answer: Absolutely nothing – they were to retain in a position of neutrality until the day the Great Houses had beaten each other back into the stone age.
Question: Why and what next?
Answer: Once all the houses had beaten themselves silly Comstar could ride out like the knights of old and restore the Star League under a Blakean Theocracy – people would see them as liberators and saviors – the idea of minimal backlash from a defending army is also noted,
Thus the overall plan was always based upon a long term stand of neutrality; until such a time as there was no opposition.

So, how is helping a technologically superior military going to achieve the overall result of establishing the master plan of a Blakean Theocracy ? Especially when it is quite evident that from their initial contact that the Clans sociology is based upon genetic superiority and all others are to be treated as little better than slaves ? That is they will try to make slaves of ComStar ! At this stage the idea that Comstar is in a winning position by assisting the Clans is beyond ludicrous !
The only way ComStar can come out of this invasion is if they assist the Great Houses to Defeat the Clans and the only way this can occur is if the Great Houses and the ComStar re-establish the Star League and the SLDF ?
This is clearly a positive-sum game – each participant’s gain through the destruction of the Clans ….
This is why the current administration should be removed by those who have a more rational perspective of what is going on …

Quote:
Do you understand that the regular workers in Comstar was under the belief that they were only working with the clans to keep populations safe?



Question: Please explain why a society based upon Military and Genetic superiority, such as the Clans, who believe that due to their genetic superiority they are the only people who are allowed to rule would allow ComStar to administer their worlds unless they too are recognized as slaves of the Clan Overlords ?

This is again Rome and Roman Legions and the indigenous people they have conquered.

Thus there is a disparity / disconnect in their actions and reality – why ? If asked why - what would the average Clan Warrior say ?
They would have no reason to lie – they would say that ComStar and the Clans have come to an understanding …
They (those within the Clan OZ) would also have received a message from Terra explain the situation as to why they are administering these worlds on behalf of the Clans … it is clear this is not a Humanitarian venture …. ComStar has become a Vichy Government upon these worlds within the Clan OZ – so how did that work out ?

Quote:
And there was a plan? You said they needed to head out and hit the Jaguars as soon as possible, since honor was at stake. That generally means no real plan, just reaction in waves.



There is another Forum in regards to this topic as well as basic Military Contingency Theory would say otherwise.

Quote:
What happened with Germany isn't the same thing. Germany didn't have something that would wipe out any of your transports without much threatening them back.



So, let me get this, clan warriors are the only ones to ever leave their base of operations and they never ever get out of their Mechs and Elemental Suits to issue directives etc ?
They never utilize on world transport under any circumstances
And they never wander around their base out in the open for anyone to see them – they remained confined to their buildings at all time.
The similarity is accurate,

Quote:
the IS did not KNOW what reserves that clans actually had with them …



So most people in the Inner Sphere are illiterate and they cannot observe and count the forces on their own world ?

Quote:
The Dragoon meeting would only tell them how the clans operated before they stopped reporting to them. They were NOT part of the planning to actually launching the invasion. For all the Dragoon's knew, all the clans were involved.



So the Dragoons never watched CMM and all other news agencies that discussed the invasion for the past how many months, and they were quite incapable of identifying the number of invading Clans even when the news readers identified them by name ?

Quote:
Go back and read where the DCMS was based on the Samurai. Based on. Not the exact model of it.



https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bushido

No. even canon has writings on the subject ….
They just need to be way more comprehensive to understand the finer points ….
There are seven virtues for the code: as provided by the Sarna are ….
• Rectitude (morally correct behavior or thinking; righteousness)
• Courage
• Benevolence
• Respect
• Honesty
• Honor
• Loyalty

However, if we go to the Naso Satomi’s Hakkenden we have the virtues that all samurai should possess.
• Loyalty – Dosetsu *
• Filial Devotion & Piety– Shino
• Duty & Obligation – Sosuke *
• Faith – Genpachi
• Brotherly Affection –Kobungo
• Sympathy & Benevolence – Dihatche
• Proper Form & Courtesy – Daikaku
• Wisdom – Keno
Just note * indicates that they switched their positions during the story ….

Quote:
Thus the writers violated their own rules, how can the Clans survive in the IS given such a minimal replacement personnel – assassination / attrition warfare?



Question: how did you get “The clans do not constantly war with each other so they replace half their warriors a year.” From the above quote ?

Question: If the Clans can create 300 new warriors from sibkos each year how many can Inner sphere assassins and front line forces kill in a year of fighting ? and how often do these replacements arrive within the Inner Sphere to fill the gaps from those that have been killed in battle – especially when it takes six months to travel time ?

Also remember to increase the number of sibkos each clan has at any one period of time will take anywhere between 18 -20 years depending on when each clan holds their graduation to become a warrior so the number of replacement personnel must be fairly constant unless corners are cut and an order is given to allow more through the program than would normally have been allowed – thus diluting their warrior pool with substandard warriors.

Or they allow more freeborn personnel into the warrior program to make up for all the trueborn that have been killed off in the Inner Sphere.
ghostrider
08/12/20 02:21 PM
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There is a huge flaw in your analysis of Natasha. Where the physical decline would work had she gotten into a fist fight with them, piloting a mech is not as limiting. Experience does make up a huge part of being a better pilot, as you can anticipate to a degree, what the enemy will do. The clans are a bit easier to anticipate then an IS warrior, as the clans tend to stick to one general method of fighting. They tend to ignore jump jets before the invasion is one such thing. A lot of mech sensors can be tuned to cover things like eyesight decline as well as hearing. Some one from Snord's Irregulars (Shakes I believe) put that theory forward.
And with this, the decline for everyone is not the same. There are more then a few in their 70's that are in better shape then most in their 20's. It isn't anywhere near normal, but it does happen. GIven Natasha kept up her fighting form, this is likely the case.
Also, you are dealing with genetic manipulation within the clans. It is very possible they hit a good combination within her.

Comstar was trying to get the houses to destroy themselves. The fact the only way that could be accomplished is if they destroyed each other in war. With this, it is possible the succession wars were encouraged to rage to allow this to happen, verses the possibility of the house lord to sit down and agree to end it peacefully. So chew on that conspiracy for a while.
And with the idea of neutrality, how many times did they favor one house or another? Almost consistently during the time they were around.
You really haven't got a clue on what Comstar actually knew about the clans. Waterly was not really based as much in reality as you would think. She had absolutely no clue on just how many forces the clans had, as the only forces they would probably admit to is what was in the IS. She also believe the clans to be easy for her to manipulate and constantly cause all sides to grind down each other, until her 'superior' forces could take them all out. Until she learned they were after Terra alone, she was going to spread them out all across the IS in order to weaken them while destroyed the others. Anyone that has actually read the print can see this.
Now this is a bit funny and sad. The workers of Comstar believed their organization was the guiding light of the universe, and when the clans allowed them to continue their jobs and increase their influence to the oppressed on the worlds the clans took, only made them think this was a divine right. It may also have gave them the idea that they could 'civilize' the clans, by showing them the divine light of Blake. Most of those on clan occupied worlds were probably scared that they too were going to join the masses in becoming the servants of the clans for a while. Comstar did run into the Clans in the periphery, where they do have some HPGs. Yet that fact never was made public.

Do you think the average clanner knew Comstar and their leadership had a tight agreement? Most would only know their leaders said don't mess with Comstar. They were not going to be let into the loop as they didn't need to know the full details. Just follow orders. Things like this make me wonder just how much you understand politics and the double talk game of getting a head by lying to all.

It didn't say otherwise. It said that they were to pull resources out of thin air, start off nukes being used, as you did not like the fact the IS didn't have warships, and projected more non existing things into the 'only viable solution' to the problem. Then the argument turned around when suggested if the DC followed this, then they would never have made it into the 3050s as an entity, as they woudl have fallen in the succession wars. That was something that meant the continuity was against rendered asunder, as it removes the entire equation from the game.

Clan leaders only used clan transports, and had clan guards around them. One of only a few times the leaders got into a situation that their guards might not be able to handle, was when Ulric visited the one sight that Phelan took down Evantha and the mech warrior beating on the old man that approached. And that does not negate the fact that the clans could shut down worlds by destroyed any ships coming in or out of the world. Something Germany never had the ability to do. And all worlds were importing and exporting things. Remove that from their abilities and you stop a lot of things. Some of it was needed, such as food and water.

Count the number of units on their world? You do realize how dumb that statement becomes when you put real life logic to it? Say you live in New Zealand. How many forces are spread across Europe? Africa? The Americas? How many can you count from New Zealand? IF, and this is a big IF, you had others on those continents that could count them all, not just a few cities, then you MIGHT get an idea. But even during the height of the SL, locals did not have an accurate account of how many forces are on world. This is a big part of why raids failed. The enemy occupies worlds of yours, and locals say how many units they see, only to find out they missed even battalions of units. But then you are under the belief that everyone has full access to private transport, as well as radios that can't be monitored or found, except when it is the enemy doing so.
And then you have to ignore the fact that normal people would turn in those even attempting to do so, without realizing the clans would NOT reward them, like a normal enemy would. The IS did not know how the clans operated.
How small is the world? 5 miles? 10?

What did CMM say about the VIpers and Nova Cats? Oh yeah. They found out about them when the Cats hit Lutien with the Jaguars. And that is not saying that other clans were not poised to hit in other locations around the IS. Nor does that have any information on them being readied for another wave. And lastly, that information, if it could be sent to worlds outside of clan influence, was for the intel and leaders. It would not be openly broadcast to everyone in the march, as it would destroy morale to find out that nothing your government has done, has done more then caused the invaders to blink. So yet another hole opens up in the perfect counter to canon.
The only thing the Dragoons had going for them over some other units was Wolfnet. And even that was probably not enough to bypass clan protocols.

You mean canon defined their version of Bushido and you say it doesn't work? The vision canon uses doesn't work because someone else says it is different? So who's version for the game is right? The ones the developers said was being followed? Or someone else's version that doesn't have anything to do with the game?

You watch too many assassination movies. You do not just walk up to an enemy and slit their throats in front of crowds. It just doesn't happen. And using explosives isn't a good way either. You tend to get your own people that was as well, and they normally suffer when the enemy retaliates. They will only put up with so much before their own survival comes first. And how many assassins are even around? Oh yeah. The non existant streams of them in every city. Just killing someone isn't assassination. Making it look like it was an accident takes real talent. Murder is where you just stab someone. Most of what the IS has done against the clans were terrorists. Open violence that may or may not have killed some enemies.

The example of how many warriors the clans replace in a year was to show that the clans did NOT understand just how many replacements were going to be needed. They were set up for normal clan attrition. Nothing in there said that they would not run low on warriors had the IS actually caused the attrition they should have. The numbers they could replace is not the issue, but how many reserves they had until that showed up is. And that was a specific weakness built into the 'favored' clans. The war would not have lasted until all the IS was taken. The clans did not have the warriors to do so. Now had the clans done the 1st succession war tactics and destroyed the jumpship production, then they could have taken their time. So their honor system was designed to 'favor' them yet again. NOT! The clans had the ability to make jumpships and warships. That was not necessary for them to avoid wiping out the IS production. It would have sped up the IS falling had they done so. Even without destroying the facilities, they could have damaged them so they were useless, especially if they could keep them from being fixed. So yeah. The clans were favored.
Requiem
08/12/20 09:12 PM
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Quote:
There is a huge flaw in your analysis of Natasha. Where the physical decline would work had she gotten into a fist fight with them, piloting a mech is not as limiting. Experience does make up a huge part of being a better pilot ….



For this to be accurate there should be a World Series Video Game Tournament winner who is over a senior citizen – Pong ’72; Pacman ’80 …. All experience to win today’s computer games …..
As anticipated with the ravages of time the human body …
• Lower reaction time due to both muscle tissue, cartilage and decreased nerve receptors;
• Lower strength in moving the control panel;
• Lower eye sight, less hearing perception;
• Body tolerance to heat has been reduced
• Heat rate will take longer to return to normal if placed under stress;

Quote:
There are more then a few in their 70's that are in better shape then most in their 20's



Please indicate the sport’s woman / man who can compete with a twenty something.
Genetic modification cannot slow the ravages of time – cellular degradation and viability.

Quote:
And with the idea of neutrality, how many times did they favor one house or another? Almost consistently during the time they were around.



https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Myndo_Waterly
Please do explain, at that time, Precenter of Dieron Myndo Waterly’s ….
Reaction to the signing of the Federated-Commonwealth Alliance Document; and
“Despite breaching THE FIRST CIRCUIT'S STRICT NON-INTERVENTION POLICY, Waterly was exonerated in the excommunication trial held to decide her fate. “

Quote:
You really haven't got a clue on what Comstar actually knew about the clans.



Can I laugh now ?
• Reports from Adepts on the Ground from any world conquered by the Clans;
• Anastasius Focht’s personal interaction as envoy to the Clans where he recognized the threat of the Clans;
• Focht’s retinue that went with him as his staff;
As for maintaining a leader who is out of touch with reality, in such a dangerous situation this is where the First Circuit would remove and replace Waterly ….
ComStar is not the same as that of a Great House the ComStar Civil War 2901 – 2902 in removing Primus Dwight Kurstin …. Proves the point that in a time emergency the First Circuit is more than willing to remove the Primus for the security of ComStar …. The organization is more important than the person in the top job …
Again this is a positive sum game ! ComStar cannot manipulate or control any of the Clans. Their society has demonstrated that they are zealots to their cause, their treatment of those they have conquered demonstrates that they view people as objects ….
There is but one rational choice …. Re-establish the Star League and the Star League Defense Force and war to the death of one or the other’s complete way of life ….

Quote:
Do you think the average clanner knew Comstar and their leadership had a tight agreement?



How else could they enforce the il-Khans agreement to allow ComStar to administer worlds if they did not understand the agreement ? and just following orders produces limited results … when a soldier understands the overall objectives you obtain better results.

Quote:
And that does not negate the fact that the clans could shut down worlds by destroyed any ships coming in or out of the world.



Number of worlds conquered versus the number of warships available would say otherwise ….
Then there is the issue of Big wing strike groups ….
Then there is the issue of PT drop-ship strike craft ….
As for Germany …. Look at the number of bombers that were shot down

Quote:
How many forces are spread across Europe? Africa? The Americas?



So no one lives in Europe, Africa or the Americas who could watch the Clans and count the number of Mechs / Elementals and Fighters they have ?

Quote:
This is a big part of why raids failed. The enemy occupies worlds of yours, and locals say how many units they see, only to find out they missed even battalions of units.



Operation Market Garden – A Bridge too far – the reverse is also true …. Partisan units told the regular units and the information was dismissed because of hubris pride.

Quote:
But then you are under the belief that everyone has full access to private transport, as well as radios that can't be monitored or found, except when it is the enemy doing so.



First, how many people in today’s society do not have access to any form of transport;
Second, how many super computers did the clans bring with them that are contacted to the communication grid and are geared to word search engines that can then copy and sent to massive amounts of logs to call centre operations (with massive amount of people) who can then individually listen to and interpret conversations for acts of illegal behavior ?
Consider the number of text messages alone that are sent in a single day ?
Sorry but this suggestion has just become too impractical to enforce
And then there are also old school methods of cells and dead letter drops to contend with …
The watch doesn’t have the numbers to contend with the numbers ….
Again the Clans do not have the populations to enforce any serious garrison policy on any world with a reasonable sized population.
As for quislings – how long do they usually last in war zone – especially if you have been brought up on a border world ? And how many of them will actually sell out their neighbor ? This depends upon the socioeconomic status of the world and the morality of the people on that world as well as the enforcement agencies on that world willing to obey their new Clan overlords.

Quote:
What did CMM say about the VIpers and Nova Cats? Oh yeah. They found out about them when the Cats hit Lutien with the Jaguars.



https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Steel_Viper
Clan Steel Vipers - including garrisoning worlds conquered by the Ghost Bears during the third wave of the invasion (June-July 3050);

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Nova_Cat
Clan Nova Cat - the observers were allowed to participate in minor actions during this phase of the invasion;
Clan Nova Cat was chosen to be the escort to the ComStar ambassador Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht, transporting him to the Clan flagship Dire Wolf via the True Vision;

Thus they knew of their existence …. And wouldn’t the Dragoons also explain the level of their forces would be comparable with that of the other Clans involved in the Invasion ….. and they would also explain the total number of Clans within the Clan Home worlds and this is only one third of the total ?
And as such wouldn’t a normal leader upon hearing this information wouldn’t you be preparing for the introduction of two more Clans – and even the possibility of even more Clans - by introducing conscription, moving your economy to a total war footing – increasing production output at every military industrial complex etc. ? Remember at this stage any true leader must prepare for the worst, so do explain how any of the leaders of the Inner Sphere at that point in time when they are told the true strength of ALL the clans doesn’t institute a Total War Economic and Social Shift as did all countries during WW2.
Sorry but it just cannot be done ! At this point in time this is the only logical cause for the Leaders of the Inner Sphere to take – by taking the approach that we will deal with the problem right in front of our face whilst ignoring the fact that there is an even larger force out there is beyond ludicrous once more ….

At this point in time the entire Inner Sphere would shift to a Total war footing – best example – Roughnecks fighting the bugs and their society shift …
As for wolfnet how vast could it have been in comparison to any House Internal Security Force …

Quote:
You mean canon defined their version of Bushido and you say it doesn't work?



It does not work in the game because there is virtually no understanding as to many of the subtle nuances and I have yet to see an example of understanding as to the concept of Face in the game …

Quote:
You watch too many assassination movies.



Research ….
the number of assassination’s attempted and carried out during the 20th Century ….
recent IED activity in modern warfare and Vietnam
terrorism within the latter half of the 20th Century ….

And as stated before look at the statistics of partisan activity per unit capita during WW2 – your non-existent people just became a vast resistance army at approximately 8% of the population (if I remember correctly).
As for making it look like an accident, in war such niceties are not observed …

Quote:
The example of how many warriors the clans replace in a year was to show that the clans did NOT understand just how many replacements were going to be needed.



When it takes 20 years to rectify this problem without diluting the warrior gene pool or introducing more freeborn warriors the clans WILL find themselves in a dire situation quickly as to replacement personnel – this is a FACT it is not something that can be ignored unless the game is rigged ….

Normal Clan attrition is a very far cry from Inner Sphere Attrition when the war shifts to attrition based warfare ….

Quote:
Now had the clans done the 1st succession war tactics and destroyed the jumpship production, then they could have taken their time



Remember the Clans must adhere to their societal values the same way that the Draconis Combine Samurai must adhere to their values .. this is why the back story as well as sociology is so important when it comes to understanding characters from different societies ….. in order to explain why they do what they do to underpin the games core character beliefs …
ghostrider
08/12/20 10:41 PM
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Laugh all you want. Just explain how Comstar found out Terra was their ultimate target? How other clans were activated and allowed into the IS to help with the invasion. How many ships the clans actually had and used in the entire operation, including those along the invasion route from the home worlds to and in the IS. How many warriors a year they could produce. How many machines they could replace in a given month. So no. Comstar didn't know as much about the clans as they believed. The fact that if Ulric had not become and retained the Ilkhan position, Comstar would have been removed from having any influence what so ever. Especially after operation Scorpion.
Now with the second part, do you know what sort of hold Walterly had over the others in the first circuit? Blackmail or promises that kept the others in line? The sheer fact they went along with her when dealing with the clans like they did, would keep a few from trying to expose any of that information.
This does not even go into how much control or how fanatical ROM was to Walterly. It is very probably they knew she would remove them if they provided any reason to believe they would betray her. In the end, her fanatical belief that she was the ultimate saviour of the IS and Comstar that she turned her back on Focht that provided the chance from him to execute her.

How else would a military entity that pushes for obeying superiors would allow the soldiers to follow simple orders to allow comstar to operate? Is that really the question to the response of the clan warriors not knowing how deep the clan leaders were cooperating with Comstar? And with this, would the leaders even want the rank and file to know how much they relied on comstar data for the invasions and to keep it from being known to the rest of the IS?
No thought what so ever seems to have gone into the answer. So keep believing you are not opening up massive logic holes. It makes it easy to point out flaws in the perfect solution.

How many warships did the IS know the clans had? Or where they were at? Or even each clan. Alls it would take is just one warship to destroy a world by keeping out ships. It might not be quick, but it would be devastating.
Oh yeah. The IS knew of every last detail of the clans from the moment they invaded, until Task Force Serpent fought the refusal battle on Strana Mechty. I forgot. You argue canon is wrong, yet throw in alt to show how wrong it is.

How many people have popped out in order to accurate count units spread across a world? And still remain in contact? Magic is not part of Battletech. Telepathy is not part of Battletech. You suggest that a single burst could be found instantly, yet this suggests they would never be found to show where agents trying to talk to others on opposite sides of the planet. News flash. About a third of the way around the world, lasers do not work. The horizon blocks the straight line communications so you need relays. Who owns them? The enemy. And this is even saying that there are that many people trying to contact each other with intel. The same people may well be enemy counteragents, which the clans would not have, but comstar would. So yeah. Everyone knew exactly what units were where and where they stood on Omi eating advocado toast.
ghostrider
08/12/20 11:15 PM
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So that means even with the exact numbers, the enemy's units are not really accounted for? Wow. So that makes it even more unlikely to get an accurate count on what units are where. The intel department doesn't believe those reports.

Having a bicycle to go across the U.S. is not going to work in a timely manor. And with this, do you think the clans would continue to allow the internet on worlds to run without major restrictions? They would shut them down, as that sort of luxury is not allowed to any outside of the warrior class, except the clan support castes, like scientist and merchants?

Underestimating what fear does to people again. Selling out, and just obeying out of fear is not necessarily the same thing. Law enforcement would keep enforcing the laws, even with an enemy ruler in place. They may not enforce everything, but in order to keep the population from being purged for the hell of it, they do keep things going as well as they can. And a war zone isn't the same thing as a full occupation where you have NO outside help you can rely on. Another flaw in the perfect concept. There is only so much you can do without outside help in most situations like this. Something that all the history of humanity on Terra has never dealt with. The fact that on earth, you can reach everywhere with some sort of transportation. Space and light years difference removes most of that.

Ok. So the news networks had telepaths that could read the minds of the clans now? When were they asked to be there when anything the clans did was performed?

Given the clans nature to resist each other, the concept of more clans working within the area of another clan would be seen as meer mercs, as the IS did not really understand the concept of mercs were hated by the clans. And without the Dragoons intel, there is no real way of knowing they were not simply another galaxy of troops from the clan. Much like RCTs scattered across one of the nations.
And that still doesn't answer when the news would have found out there were more clans coming in. Also, it was the Falcons that had the Vipers tied to them. Having something happen in the FRR would not be taken as honest fact in the FC or DC.
And this is even IF comstar was not actively stiffling those reports. Which we knew they were. ANY intel was being filtered.

The game defines the use of concepts, but it doesn't work? What is wrong with that logic? The game says it does this, yet you are saying it doesn't? You are missing facts here, and this explains why there is no understanding how it operates. Adding in your own definition does NOT change the way the game sees it. They spell out their vision of it. Not sure why this fact is hard to understand.

Funny about the reference to Starship Troopers. Comstar was much like the Sky Marshal in the fact they were actively fighting for the enemy. They allowed the enemy to advance thru their own interference.

Wolfnet does not have the be larger then house intel, but better equipped. Automated surviellance can be done with the right program. Not completely catching it all, but moreso then having a live body being required at each instance.

As you said it yourself. There is no data on what or how many units the clans lost during the invasion. So the statement of not having enough reserves is inaccurate. How many deaths or maimings happened to need to replace a warrior? Your putting in numbers that don't exist again, and saying it is fact. Sheer numbers would say there had to be some deaths, yet just how many? How many spent a few months in a medbay, then returned to duty? Supposition here is not helping your cause.

Must adhere? Really? The clans must adhere to the Ares Convention, which they were not part of, and can not use their own tactics to reduce the IS's numbers advantage? These are the same traditions that suggest you do not strike out of the darkness and keep your assaults a secret from all? You rely on a foreign agency to get you intel on an enemy so you can attack them without getting a response back from the traditional batchall?
And yet this is saying that every warrior actually goes along with the concepts of the majority of the nation. Which we know isn't true. The clans can very much destroy the IS ship yards and still adhere to their own traditions. They can rebuild them. It does fly in the face of hating waste, but that hasn't stopped them before. Once the IS started the 'dishonorable' tactics they use, it would cause the clans to see they do not deserve respect, like some of the Falcons had already said about them.
Requiem
08/13/20 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Just explain how Comstar found out Terra was their ultimate target?



Take one Star League Map and draw a line indicating the direction of each subsequent wave.
As the projection of their invasion route is linear extrapolate the invasion route out as far as possible.
Then identify all important worlds along their invasion route ….

And what world do find when extrapolating their invasion route …… Terra

How difficult is it to understand when the Clans are invading in a straight line from one wave to the next and believe their heritage was once that of the SLDF …

Quote:
So no. Comstar didn't know as much about the clans as they believed.



When Focht was accepted as an ambassador of ComStar by the Clans il-Khan what small talk did they discuss whilst attempting to form a rapprochement ?

Quote:
operation Scorpion.



Only becomes an eventuality if Walterly is still in charge of ComStar.

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you know what sort of hold Walterly had over the others in the first circuit? Blackmail or promises that kept the others in line?



You know that for anyone in the first circuit to get a promotion Walterly has to go …. Lady Macbeth goads her husband into?

Quote:
How else would a military entity that pushes for obeying superiors would allow the soldiers to follow simple orders to allow ComStar to operate?



Understanding the mission objectives by implementing full disclosure – otherwise you will have cultural dissonance – that is when two people of different cultures attempt to communicate but due to a lack of understanding this subsequently results in a cultural problem …. And given that one of the parties is a Clan Warrior the result probably would be the death of the ComStar Acolyte …. Not a good situation to be in if you are attempting form a harmonious relationship!

Suggest reading International Business articles on the subject.

Quote:
How many warships did the IS know the clans had? Or where they were at? Or even each clan. Alls it would take is just one warship to destroy a world by keeping out ships. It might not be quick, but it would be devastating.



Versus an aerospace fighter with a nuke? ….. warships are just ‘that’ dangerous ….. despite what the canon rules clam for their jumped up firecrackers, a near miss will still convert the majority of the ship to gaseous particles when considering the thermal temperature of a nuke ….

Then there is the second issue of Clan tradition that negates the entire idea of Warships becoming a danger to the Inner Sphere. So unless the Clans abandon all their traditions the idea of warships becoming an issue is next to nil.

Then there is the Inner Spheres ability to manufacture pocket warships – considering the imbalance of technological resources due to population the Clans will have a problem given enough time …

Quote:
Oh yeah. The IS knew of every last detail of the clans from the moment they invaded, until Task Force Serpent fought the refusal battle on Strana Mechty



Isn’t this why you have an intelligence operations unit as well as a dedicated reconnaissance unit ?

Quote:
How many people have popped out in order to accurate count units spread across a world? And still remain in contact?



How many bases are established in the middle of no-where? And How many bases are established next to major population settlements in order to keep “the natives in line”?
Second how many people are upon the majority of all Inner Sphere Worlds ? Thus making the idea of vast empty areas of land quite difficult to believe …
Third how efficient would a communication system in 3050 be when compared to the level of technology that we have today?
Fourth considering the number of secret wars every House have been in against Comstar wouldn’t it be prudent to mass produce Black Box technology in the event ComStar once again flicked the switch and turned off the HPG grid? Or doesn’t your universe believe in contingency theory?

And it’s not avocado toast it is Miso soup, rice and salmon …. I thought that was basic intelligence?

So that means the intelligence department has a high degree of accuracy when it comes to Clan Intelligence as more and more garrisons are raided and taken and more information is collected from a variety of sources that culminate in a fairly accurate picture of the Clans TO&E and replacement schedule ….

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Having a bicycle to go across the U.S. is not going to work in a timely manor.



Ask Nancy Wake, the White Mouse …. WW2 French Resistance and later SOE …

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And with this, do you think the clans would continue to allow the internet on worlds to run without major restrictions?



Then what’s the point of having a dark web and on top of that were is the Clans military electronics counter measure corps?, last I looked they never formed this dedicated military unit, as well as a psy-ops unit, counter terrorism unit etc etc
Where as within the IS this would have become Standard Operating Procedure ….

By forming the Clans as is their entire Military specialist sub units no longer exist – whereas within the Inner Sphere they remain as is ….

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Underestimating what fear does to people again. Selling out, and just obeying out of fear is not necessarily the same thing. Law enforcement would keep enforcing the laws, even with an enemy ruler in place.



How did that work out throughout all of history?

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And a war zone isn't the same thing as a full occupation where you have NO outside help you can rely on.



Isn’t this why the SOE was formed in the past and still exists today via arms merchants / agency spies?
And in the far future they would still have a unit funneling arms to resistance groups for the express purpose of tying down units assigned to hunting them down.

Yes there is only so much you can do without outside help – this is why there is a dedicated team attached to intelligence agencies for the express purpose of assisting these terrorist units.

Quote:
Ok. So the news networks had telepaths that could read the minds of the clans now?



Embedded reporters – remember those people in the Jihad Era attached to military units ….
Military reports by the Archon to a gaggle of reports as to the state of the war …

Quote:
Comstar was much like the Sky Marshal in the fact they were actively fighting for the enemy.



Where did this occur – Book, Film or Anime and which episode ?

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Wolfnet does not have the be larger then house intel, but better equipped.



Really …. Remember the population difference between the two and how you are going to use a small number of individuals upon an incredibly vast number of worlds is going to limit wolfnets operational efficiency.

Also how great is automated surveillance in steeling a paper document from within a filing cabinet as air-gapped intelligence files are all the rage ?

And also who is in control of the surveillance drones and how do they communicate ?

Quote:
Supposition here is not helping your cause.



How else can you move forward then ? TPTB decided to create an invasion story where virtually no clansman ever dies fighting the Inner Sphere …. Wich is in itself a very difficult concept ….
Then there is the issue of Clan Vs Clan wars were virtually everyone dies and again post reaving they a magically returned to 100% combat efficiency …. So it is no up to the individual writing the Alt to bring sanity back to the story …

Quote:
The clans must adhere to the Ares Convention



Question – How did you go from my quote “the Clans must adhere to their societal values the same way that the Draconis Combine Samurai must adhere to their values” to the Ares Conventions?

Quote:
The clans can very much destroy the IS ship yards and still adhere to their own traditions. They can rebuild them. It does fly in the face of hating waste, but that hasn't stopped them before.



Then why didn’t they adopt this strategy from the start what was stopping them – could it be their social values and the Rules that bind the Clans together ?

And since when is attrition based warfare “dishonorable” – pitiful bidding led to the fools loss ….

Quote:
Once the IS started the 'dishonorable' tactics they use, it would cause the clans to see they do not deserve respect, like some of the Falcons had already said about them.



Problem is the Khan of the Falcons never went down this path – and the warriors must obey their Khan or issue a challenge – so when was the last time someone challenged their Khan based upon their decision?
ghostrider
08/13/20 12:14 PM
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I tell you what. Actually read the story line word for word, and not put in your comprehensive reading garbage, as it seems to prevent the real story from being known. Comstar found out Terra was the clans ultimate goal when Ulric said so when Walterly tried to divert the clans to hit other worlds. The lie saying it was figured out from drawing a line on the map and seeing Terra as the guiding point is enough of that garbage. It makes it sound like the entire complaint is because you don't know the actual story.

The talks did not change the fact that Comstar did not know as much about the clans as they thought they did. Even with Ulric trying to teach them, it still fell short.

Actually, given Comstar trying to destroy the IS, I am surprised Scorpion didn't happen sooner. But under the concept provided, it would have happened in any case if the SL fell. So saying it was just because of Walterly doesn't really cut it. WOB was working in the system since it's inception, and once they though they could get away with it, would have launched their own version, which they did. It is called the Jihad.

And yet, the others were not as ruthless as Walterly, so had to keep from going to certain lengths in order to remove her. They were not just fighting against her, but each other. Almost sounds like a mirror image of the SL and the First Lord. Hmmm.

Do you understand military discipline? Where the CO orders something and the soldiers follow it? You violate orders and get punished for it? The average clan warrior was not sitting around in the lobby talking with the comstar workers. As the clans don't send unimportant messages, only the aides would be there and they would NOT violate orders when the CO says don't mess with them. They do not need to know why, as it is MILTARY ORDERS, and in a military society, they will be followed. Interesting concept. The fact there was no civilian government in the clans means it is nothing like anything we have today. Understanding of what the leaders wants basically comes down to follow orders and kill the enemy in combat. Maybe that helps the comprehensive learning on this.
And as a side note, harmonious relations has nothing to do with the clans. They go out of their way to start conflicts, if it isn't specifically ordered to avoid it.

Still not getting the fact that your ideas do not work in the game where the rules are specific? If the game said nukes don't work at all, then they don't work at all. I hate some of this, as they do not keep things consistent, but you are arguing the game rules can not be followed in the game as you don't like them.
And as said before. The 'only' way to deal with overwhelming force is to resort to nukes. so a small dictator would use them as any invasion that is double or more of his units would be an overwhelming force, and need to be wiped out. But you don't want consistency, as it stops any argument as it turns the idea into a logic hole. All or nothing.

And with all that, including the best personnel, you still never know the whole story. But with this, the intel gathered in 3150 does not good when you are in 3050. It just confirms or denies what you thought was right. Intel is more about timing then not. You can know everything possible, but it needs to be at the time you need it, not years to decades in the future. Even with HPG's knowledge is not instantaneously known to all.
ghostrider
08/13/20 12:37 PM
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Use our world as a guide. We have how many billion people in the world, and yet have large tracts of land that no one bothers with? Simple wiping out satellites until your facility is made, then hidden, allows you to do a few things and keep it quiet. As said before. Building an addition to another base, and do it all underground can keep it quiet, possibly until long after it is abandonded.
But having someone constantly sitting around making notes to how many people are on a base, will cause the base to realize they are being watched. That is why there are large areas of land that the base doesn't use between the core and where the fences are. To help prevent this. To be honest, and it will give you more crap to talk, it would be far easier to use incoming, or company dropships and such to observe hard to reach spots from space as you approach and leave a world, then it is to slog out to one and hope you are not spotted. Simple optical telescopes don't normally have electronics being sent out to be detected.
You are talking about Battletech. Coms are just like targeting systems. They bite the big one. You can normally detect them unless the game needs it to remain quiet. Systems can find out they are being targeted, yet can't find that 30 meter tall unit that is sending out the scanner. The ability to hit somethig over half a kilometer isn't possible in an atmosphere. So it would go along that theory that your coms can't connect at any great distances with any sort of stealth.

I thought it was established that logic doesn't have a part in the game? The fact that only the DC seems to be immune to Comstar working against them, is about the only reason there would not be back up plans. The black boxes were not meant to last part the 4th war, as it destroys the ability of comstar to stop messages they don't want known. Had they actually been used like they should have, the entire clan invasion would not have evolved like it did. Coms black outs would have been found out far sooner, and with proven effects had they been used. There isn't any argument there. That was dropped to allow the story to unfold as the developers wanted.

And no. Omi liked Advocado toast. It had to be kept a secret due to the DC traditions. The loss of face would have destroyed the DCMS.

This leads to something the game dropped after the MAC adventure pack was put out. The sensor baffling materials could well be how a lot of secret facilities stayed a secret. You couldn't detect them normally. Seeing things moving, well that wasn't changed.

The dark web uses the same communications lines as the web does. You basically stop that, and you stop it all. Not much for understanding some simple things like having a HAM radio that uses normal power from the electric grid, being stopped by shutting off the grid, and no back up power is available I see.

Much like the supposed war on drugs, you can not even attempt to beat the dark web when the rich and powerful use it themselves. It is all an illusion to make people think something is being done. It is much easier to catch those that upset the rich and powerful when they think you are not watching the 'way' around the lawful systems. Much like a trap.

Police contiuing to enforce the law worked out pretty well in history. You do not see massive amounts of cities being sterilized due to the population becoming that unruly. There were examples, but for the most part, they were not that common.
ghostrider
08/13/20 01:10 PM
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You did not see Starship Troopers III? The whole movie is about the Sky Marshal being influenced by the Brainbug, and selling out the Earth. If not for the intel, the fleet HQ would have been destroyed. Funny. That movie has been out for a while now.
Some of the other movies that came out for Starship Troopers had one that another Sky Marshal allowed Mars to be invaded, so they could destroy the planet.

Ok. So the LA/LC had some during the Jihad era. What does this have to due with the clan invasion? New conferences are nothing new, but they are not going to tell the news that the clans took 15 worlds and no one knew about it. They are not going to tell the news outlets that they have 5 teams on Barcelona that are trying to keep the resistance going. The news outlets will have someone watching them so certain news never sees the light of day.

Intel is as much as finding out WHERE the intel is at, as gathering it. Undetected remote surveillance does wonders for finding out where it is at. Most stories seem to always have intel hooked up to something that isn't air gapped. But just knowing what is guarding that area helps in getting it as well. Wolfnet is likely to have an advantage over the house intel, as they would have access to SL tech. Which may well include override codes to SL security measures.

The fact that saying canon is wrong, using supposition is why you have to get away from canon. You are trying to change their story using something only you have any clue to the numbers and such. Canon has a lot of large holes in the logic. That is not being argued. It is being argued that your view of what needs to happen is not using the numbers they did to create it. Keeping within their numbers is where you show they should have done something different. Otherwise, do like D&D and make your own reality of it, and drop canon completely.

Suggesting that the clans must adhere to their traditions, then complain that they did is where things are going south. The DCMS did adhere to the canon printed version of Bushido. The clans being unfeeling towards freeborns happens and you say it can't happen that way.
The sound of they must adhere sounds very much like they need to adhere to things they had no part in. The clans do not care so much about civilians. When they follow that, you say they are not being used as they were described to. The DCMS adhere to the games definition of Bushido, yet you say they are not. The idea of the Ares Convention came up as the irony of the entire statement. They are not adhering to YOUR vision of what they should be. They are adhering to the games definition of what they should be. But I don't think you will ever see that one.

Attrition warfare not being dishonorable? For the clans, the fast conclusion is where you show who is superior. To fight beyond the ability to win, just to bleed an enemy is not honorable. It is spiteful, and wasteful. It is why the clans think the IS as barbaric.
The developers did NOT want the clans to overrun the IS as you try to make it sound. They wanted a threat and the ability to stop it. Hence the trial rules. It could have been done much better, but then I don't think that even the writers they had, were up for something better. They are for doing more war then backfilling stories. And that is where they seem to screw up the most. Trying to make stories out of the game, but continuity with rules prevents it from being without major issues.

Vlad was one of the last ones I knew of. But then it was about that time that I stopped getting the books. The issue with challenging the khans is the khans can choose a champion to fight for them, and some would negate the warriors challenge by ignoring it.
Which Khans demanded the Falcons issue the Batchall? The two that were part of the initial invasion did NOT order the Falcons that won the bids to issue any challenge. They chose to sidestep it by saying it was the commanders right to ignore customs at that point. I would have to look it up, but I believe the khans actually supported not issuing the batchall, but could not say that with the other khans as it would be against the clan traditions.
Requiem
08/13/20 08:50 PM
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Quote:
The lie saying it was figured out from drawing a line on the map and seeing Terra as the guiding point is enough of that garbage. It makes it sound like the entire complaint is because you don't know the actual story.



And yet this is an Alt. Universe that attempts to comprehend every situation, from every point of view, and not to accept information on nebulous blanket statement basis. That is underlying story will be similar to the canon story, however the majority individuals within the story will divert widely from the norm as I want my characters to actually stick with their characters.
Case in point, Hanse Davion, the Napoleon of his day and yet for the entire Clan invasion he goes MIA when it comes to strategic advancement – at the bare minimum he would have initiated a n elastic defense in depth theory for his units on multiple worlds.

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Even with Ulric trying to teach them, it still fell short.



Where the direct method produces limited results there is always “tradecraft” – advanced espionage tactics either on Clan held OZ worlds such as support personnel through to Focht’s Diplomatic Team would have included a couple of spys.

Just remember this – Prelude to the Clan Invasion –
The Clans “Chatterweb” emphasizes the dissemination of knowledge– media shows include news and those focusing on news as well as their “great” leaders; and
This would have also have included information regarding the determination of which of the Clan would participate for the invasion.
Both Clan Wolf and Ghost Bear’s more liberal attitude towards their freeborn would have allowed them access to such information – information when properly harvested and sifted through could produce quality information in regards to what the Clans real objective is as well as their society norms, social conduct, history, religion etc. As to how many within the freeborn support elements would have brought with them media / entertainment files to pass the time and how many Black Markets would exist between the freeborn elements to exchange such disks for others – 6 months into the inner sphere and who knows how many years before you are rotated back to the Clan Home Worlds – The Diamond Sharks would have made a killing on new entertainment / news shows from home – that could have been copied by IS spys and then sifted through for important information ……also how many trueborn would tempted to exchange clan shows for IS shows creating a new black market on their new assigned worlds ?
Just as Gallipoli Campaign was an open subject at the officers mess prior to invasion; so too was Operation Revival on the Clan home worlds … in all reality the aims of the invasion was very open once a little more thought is applied to the subject.
Also the Clans freeborn are wide open for infiltration by an IS spy.

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Do you understand military discipline? Where the CO orders something and the soldiers follow it? You violate orders and get punished for it?



You do understand military human resource theory of management? How do you get the best out of your all the different units within your military? Just making dogmatic orders is not the way to go – you have to get your unit to see the big picture as to why their cog is so important …. If ordered to not get in the way of ComStar Adepts as they assist in their Vichy Government will they still go out of their way to pick a fight?

Quote:
Still not getting the fact that your ideas do not work in the game where the rules are specific?



As this is an Alt Universe that, if the idea of Nukes are introduced, then they should conform to the rules of physics.
However, in reality I would prefer to ditch nukes and all WMDs altogether – and introduce mass IS warships earlier and initiate a Naval war.

Quote:
Use our world as a guide. We have how many billion people in the world, and yet have large tracts of land that no one bothers with? Simple wiping out satellites until your facility is made, then hidden, allows you to do a few things and keep it quiet.



And yet one person in the next town over knows exactly where the base is …. Area 51?; how many other secret bases became known?
Creating a blanket statement is not an absolute – information will get out …

Quote:
But having someone constantly sitting around making notes to how many people are on a base, will cause the base to realize they are being watched.



High Altitude weather balloon;
High powered telescope;
Advanced electronic eavesdropping equipment;
Spy obtaining access;
Also remember during the Clan War an observatory built upon the lunar surface assisted DCMS units against the Clans – so even a drop-ship on the Lunar surface with a built in advanced telescope could be used to obtain very in-depth pictures that could then be analyzed for irregularities …
etc. etc.

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So it would go along that theory that your coms can't connect at any great distances with any sort of stealth.



Black Knight ‘Mech https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Knight
SLDF - Its advanced communications gear allowed the Black Knight to effortlessly coordinate an entire company of 'Mechs simultaneously, could easily link together the command frequencies of an entire parent regiment and connect with orbital support satellites.

Bug-eye https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bug-Eye

Naval Comm-Scanner Suite https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Naval_Comm-Scanner_Suite
t was primarily used to monitor communications and detect spacecraft emissions with much greater accuracy than that provided by standard sensor suites.

High-Rez Imager Camera https://www.sarna.net/wiki/High-Rez_Imager_Camera
is a piece of satellite imaging equipment. This sophisticated holographic/photographic array is capable of distinguishing objects as small as a meter from orbit

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The black boxes were not meant to last part the 4th war



Then why is there K-0 series (2580 version) to K-6 series (3061 version) – and in all reality there should be far more versions than this all the way to 3150 ….
Their ability to assist with military / government operations are just too important ….

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Had they actually been used like they should have, the entire clan invasion would not have evolved like it did.



Correct.

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sensor baffling materials



Chameleon Light Polarization Shield https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Chameleon_Light_Polarization_Shield
First on my list to bring back when fighting the Clans – and they thought the IS couldn’t drop lower in their opinion!

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The dark web uses the same communications lines as the web does. You basically stop that, and you stop it all.



and the concept of secret servers? …. The concept of advanced hackers?

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You do not see massive amounts of cities being sterilized due to the population becoming that unruly.



Consider the States department information for each county – eg Mexico no go areas – Colima, Guerrero, Michoacan, Sinaloa, and Tamaulipas
Chicago in the ‘30s
Then there are also shady areas in most large cities that can be considered avoid at all cost.
So wouldn’t each House have a similar information as to worlds / ciies on those worlds you should avoid at all cost as ell as states – MoC comes to mind ….

Never seen StarShip Troopers 3

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Ok. So the LA/LC had some during the Jihad era. What does this have to due with the clan invasion?



Even today – reporters are embedded in the military – same could be assumed with the distant future …. Enquiring minds want to know …. And then there is the trick of embedding a spy with the reporters.

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intel is as much as finding out WHERE the intel is at, as gathering it.



Holistic approach to intelligence gathering is required.

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Suggesting that the clans must adhere to their traditions, then complain that they did is where things are going south



And where did these traditions go south?

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Attrition warfare not being dishonorable? For the clans, the fast conclusion is where you show who is superior. To fight beyond the ability to win, just to bleed an enemy is not honorable. It is spiteful, and wasteful. It is why the clans think the IS as barbaric.



For the fist part of the invasion the IS has played to the Clan’s rules of war …. However post year of peace they will now have to play to the IS’s rules of war …. If they bid incorrectly then they are gone …. If the declare it Dezgra then that too is acceptable as the game is moving from surgical strike to all out total destruction of one side or the other.

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The developers did NOT want the clans to overrun the IS as you try to make it sound.



That’s not what 3250 states – ilkhan of the Star League ? not impressed / and hate the idea ….
ghostrider
08/14/20 12:09 AM
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How much of Hanse's orders were modified or completely disobeyed by the LC command? How much of it came to late, or was 'lost' by comstar, such as having to be rerouted which made the orders too late to do anything? Same thing could be said of Skye. That area may well have been a major cause of units not getting to the front as they needed to stop issues with the entire march.
And no matter how you spin it, this is all about ripping on canon. The statement of canon is wrong because I did this is the end all of that falsehood.

For over 250 years, there has been no case of being able to sell secrets from one clan to another. If they could even attempt it, both clans would kill the person as it is dishonorable. So where the idea would come from leaves me wondering just how many straws are being grasped at.
Even with the poor treatment by their clans, the freeborns would still side with the clans over the IS. Once they got in deeper this would have changed, but by that time, it was too late to so anything like sell clan information.
It would be more likely to get things out of selling clantech to the manufacturers then it would be to sell troop data to the main governments. At least the clantech wouldn't be out of date in a day or so. And that is IF you believe the information is accurate. The IS did not trust the clans to be forth coming with things, as their succession wars were built on lying thru the backside. Part of why they did not respond better in the beginning, on top of Comstar helping keep it quiet.

Real life bs does not apply to the clans as there is NOTHING that compares to them. The clans have dealt with orders being given and you follow them, even if you don't know what is going on with it. The clans know fighting, and when to obey the orders. They don't need to know anything more about things that concern others, because that doesn't exist in their trials. You are NOT relying on reinforcements to take or hold an objective. The enemy is NOT going to drop another galaxy on you in a day. Between waves, you got time to reload and rearm. What concerns would you have? Have you even thought of that before suggesting they are exactly like today's units? Even trouncing them, would not result in warship bombardment, as they do stick with the trial rules. Just a hint that you violated that, would cause a major rush to destroy those dezgra units.

As stated so many times in the past, what the alt does is what it does. Saying canon has to follow suit is the big issue.
Saying there is no logic, yet doing the same thing, only a different way does not mean the logic magically comes in. It just creates more issues.
ghostrider
08/14/20 12:38 AM
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Funny. Area 51 was unknown for a long while. And it has become the open secret to keep people from looking for others in the area. Even having offshoots connected to it, you wouldn't know as you don't have access inside. Hanger 18 is Roswell New Mexico was another secret base for a while. It kept people's focus on them while research was being done elsewhere. Yet what is actually there or was there? No one outside of specific areas of the government or private companies know. So in effect, it is still carrying out secret research.

Funny that you suggest weather balloons over an area that would be a no fly zone. It would be shot down before it got to see anything, and the people that put it up would be arrested. There is no leeway on this. Everyone knows there is nothing allowed. Small drones today pose a threat more then weather balloons. But the military shoots down things waiting for someone stupid enough to complain their drone was downed.

The command module in Marauders, and the coms in Phoenix Hawks could do the same thing. The command module Cyclops is yet another. So there is far more then just that which could do the same thing. The dual seated Battlemaster was the same way. Yet what happened to them? The same thing with all the high tech bs in the game that allows the enemy to defeat your units thru combined arms. It was dropped to avoid it being a problem with your advances.
I agree, this is stupidly frustrating.
Now a counter question. Did the CC stealth armor ever get used against the clans? How did it perform? Yeah. That is why the CC had to remain out of it. This would open up another can of worms.

As said before. Having the black boxes in use, allows the FC/FS/LC/LA to get around using the HPG network. And the DC got ahold of it. SO how to you explain the lack of responses to the Jihad and such if they are still in use? You can't really. It needs to disappear as it stops the whole coms issue. Yes. It is stupid, but seems to be the only way to allow things like the Jihad to actually do as much damage as it did.

Funny that the clans came out with the better ecm as well as basically a cloaking device, yet they are supposed to announce their intentions. So yeah. This does screw with the entire premise of things.

Been down the road of advanced hackers. It doesn't end well for any case. As for secret servers? How long can they last using WIFI when every wifi circuit has been shut down? Phone lines being shut down as well. Laser coms? Yet you need to have a reciever to send to. Eventually, that is found. How quickly is the same question as the burst coms, which could be used. Vary frequencies to avoid detection for a while longer.

The concept of no go areas is bs if you really think about it. The houses would remove those spots if they were really that bad. But they have to remain, otherwise heroes could not get answers when they are on the run.

And those reporters are not going to put out news the government doesn't want, or they get removed from their posts. Even jailed or 'lost' in battles. The general public is not going to know the enemy is about to land on their back porch. And to give information to the enemy, such as letting the FC know that the DC lost 15 regiments would be even more likely to get an execution going. Same on the FC side.

The clans backstory is harsh treatment of anyone that isn't as good as the person dishing out the garbage. Get that same person in an area that NO one is even close, as the complaint comes up that it shouldn't happen. Not getting where the argument goes south?

Given how many 'heroic' units came from militia, especially along the periphery border, the entire premise of them falling that quickly is funny in a way. It does explain why the developers had the Falcons do surprise attacks, as if there was any advanced warning, the Falcons would still be on wave one while the rest were on wave 3. The DC still had issues with vehicles and mechs working together, but not as bad as the clans. The FC on the other hand, had them working together much better, even with the social generals still in the LC portion. There is no getting around some issues, as tanks normally can not jump gaps, so they tend to die when caught like that, but they would have done more damage then the story implies. And with that, the clans brought more supplies with them, then implied as well, as there was no lack of replacements when it came time to continue on.
Requiem
08/14/20 08:30 AM
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Quote:
How much of Hanse's orders were ….



Really? …..
First, would anyone ever disobey Hanse when you consider his battlefield achievements?
Second, change in orders are too easy to audit at a future date … thus putting ComStar once more in the spotlight …
Also, wouldn’t a message of this import be sent via a Verigraph? (https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Verigraph)

Quote:
And no matter how you spin it, this is all about ripping on canon.



Considering Hanse’s tactical acumen shown throughout his life upon many battlefields – please do show me where Hanse’s genius is when it comes to the Clan invasion as just leaving your forces on worlds and allowing the Clans to invade them with no backup whatsoever doesn’t seem to be the same level of genius he has shown in the past?
And as such how could the truth be considered ripping on Cannon – as in my opinion the entire FC response to the invasion is incredibly sub-par. It is totally lacking in what I would consider a response by Hanse …..

Remember what Takashi Kurita said about him when he was told he had just died …. How great an enemy he was and how he would miss him ….and stating that, either you gave your best on the battlefield or he would rip your through out … where is this Commander in Chief during the Clans Invasion?

Quote:
For over 250 years, there has been no case of being able to sell secrets from one clan to another.



You are not asking a freeborn for military information …. They wound not have clearance …. What they do have is information as to Clan Society, History, Current History, how the True Born treat them etc. What they have been told as to the aim of Operation Revival is …
Thus providing information for military intelligence and Psy-Ops teams ….

First, Clan Freeborn …. Would they even know what a secret is? Given the level of education an average freeborn receives as well as the society they come from what they would know is common knowledge and given the level of information discussed on the chatterweb any serious IS spy could easily get the information from them …. It is not as if the Clans keep their freeborn locked away 24 / 7 – who is going to get the food and drink from the locals and who is going to drive the garrison commander into the city …. etc.
Second, How many freeborn regularly go to the black-market back home to obtain those hard to find items? And if offered IS items how quick would they be to say yes?
Remember ….. Closed Culture (East Berlin) Vs. Open Culture (West Berlin)
How many West Berlin items found their way to the East?

Quote:
Real life bs does not apply to the clans as there is NOTHING that compares to them.



military human resource theory of management – google and have look – also look at the university degree on HRM.

Also, once officers achieve a certain rank may be sent to a university like courses to learn how to become the staff officers required for the more senior positions Chief of Staff etc – One of these courses will be on how to manage their forces under them in order to get the most out of them ie. HRM ….

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The clans have dealt with orders being given and you follow them.



If this is all you teach them the majority of the senior officer corps will not be worth a damn ….

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Area 51 was unknown for a long while.



and Skunk Works and Clarence Leonard “Kelly” Johnson ….. one of the. If not the greatest aeronautical engineer of the 20th Century?
and The Manhattan Project?
How long can these types of facilities be kept secret in an age of advanced sensor and telecommunications?

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Funny that you suggest weather balloons over an area that would be a no fly zone. It would be shot down before it got to see anything,



Max Height Record is 21,290 meters (69,850 ft) – then look at its size – and then consider the how sensitive your radar has to be to pick this up just floating along with a camera ……
This not something most high tech individuals are prepared for, going low tech to gain photographic information ….

Also the funny thing is I didn’t see a drone dropper gun in the list of armaments for any of the forces in the Battletech universe ….

Quote:
SO how to you explain the lack of responses to the Jihad and such if they are still in use?



Let me answer this with a quote from your own writing one paragraph up ….

“It was dropped to avoid it being a problem with your advances. I agree, this is stupidly frustrating.”

Quote:
How long can they last using WIFI when every wifi circuit has been shut down?



How about a piece of paper – a pen – a code book and a dead drop?

Then all information could be collected by the master cell and sent on via a Black Box …

In a highly technological environment going old school can be ow so infuriating to those who are unwilling to adapt!

Also ancient tactics and weapons should be reviewed – they are more dangerous than most give them credit for …

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And those reporters are not going to put out news the government doesn't want



Have a look at CNN archive footage of Iraq war ….. Shock and Awe – footage from the 2003 Invasion of Iraq.

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And with that, the clans brought more supplies with them.



Highly doubtful when you compare what each Clan brought with them in the way of Mechs / Elementals / Fighters and then compare to the total number of Transports available …. It is a wonder they would have had enough supplies until the first re-supply transports arrived – the Tyranny of Distance when it comes to Resupply and Reinforcement numbers is clearly lacking in the plot development stage - if there are no clearly established resupply bases that were established prior to the commencement of the invasion the entire first couple of waves would have had to have been put on hold for a lack of consumables – or a total switch to energy weapons until their resupply ships arrived …. And then there is the issue of reinforcement numbers … sooner rather than latter iw should have been clear to all the invading Clans that their current sibko numbers would not be enough to support the invasion …. Thus each Khan would have had to make a very hard choice … slowly die of attrition, dilute the warrior pool with substandard warriors from their trial of position or allow more freeborn in ……
It makes for a very interesting side story due to the logistics of the game ….
One that should have been addressed and not just left to fester as an unknown ……
ghostrider
08/14/20 01:00 PM
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I know there are a few that would. Nondi Steiner, the commander of the army for one. Most of the troops loyal to Skye for another. Before the 4th war, some of the Capellen March troops would The question being asked shows no real thought into what happens in the game. There are more down the line, but those should shut down that line of thought.

Ripping on canon is not the lack of Hanse not doing much during the invasion, but the lie that the alt is not here to rip canon. From the way it has been presented, it is ALL about ripping canon and the developers. Still getting the only way it can be done, and you don't accept that is wasn't is supporting this.

Missed the point yet again. Most clanners, freeborn and trueborn do not even attempt to discuss clan ways of doing things, except to rip on the barbaric ways of the IS. Those that would, are not going to explain how they limited the number of warriors that are born, nor the training process in any depth. They are not going to give you any details as to what equipment each star has, or even the clans.
Asking how their society works is saying you have no idea, and that alone would cause them to realize it is not something to talk about. And your very example shows they do know what secrets are. They are NOT going to tell the truth if asked about the black market.
The psy ops did get used and worked, it just wasn't instantaneous, nor did it produce the effects you wanted. It broke up the clans, but caused the IS ones to become king makers, not have them surrender or flee.

Again. There is nothing like the clans in history. Sending warriors to school to learn mundane things? On the job training, and using others to get things done. I have yet to see anything that suggests there is officer training programs or logistics or even management in the clans. That may all be part of training before the Trial of Position, if at all. This applies only to the military. Other castes get such training. It is more likely that another caste is on hand to take orders and make them happen.

Funny. I see a lot of weapons that would drop a drone. The basic slug throwing pistol to begin with.
And you don't need super sensative equipment to find weather balloons. Anyone on patrol for the clans would be more observant the most IS patrols are. Even with the day to day nothingness that comes from patrolling clan lands.

So going from a single person gathering information to a full network of people to gather the information is how it will play out? That's fine. I made an assumption of having just one field agent hiding near a base counting and logging any military asset they see, then getting that information back to base as quickly can be done. Then it would be just as likely to have decoys that take off in different directions to distract any one tracking such ploys. Now if time is the issue, dropboxes will not work. If it isn't, then go for it.

And yet the use of the 7 second delay has become popular. The news footage was set to avoid showing what units were where. Did it actually work? I really don't know.

There are a few flaws with some of the things to do with the lack of supplies. Suggesting going all energy weapon. That is very much based on what you brought with you. You may not have enough to swap out a trinary much less the entire invasion force. So unless you buy or send batchalls to the other clans for theirs, this is not likely to happen.
And the game ignores several things that changes how outcomes of battles. A simple head shot with an ac20 or gauss rifle destroys the head of a mech. It is unlikely that the supply depot has a few ready to go. So unless another clan mech has nothing but the head left, you are out of luck. And with that, it is doubtful that the clans brought more then a few fusion engines for what mechs they use. SO a few engine destroyed effects or gyros being wipeout out is yet another thing that doesn't seem to have a place in the battles.
Then let's not forget the ever popular wiping out small mechs quickly. With out reserves, the clan stars would become depleted quickly. Just something as simple as who was able to fire first. The LRM/SRM carrier or the Puma? There is absolutely no way the IS did not get to ambush clan forces. I do retain the right that elementals could be used to remove that threat from a lot of scenarios.
But that leads to inconsistency with their own rules for sensors. They can find unarmored soldiers sneaking up on tanks, but not an elemental? So does each suit have an ECM suit on it?
Requiem
08/14/20 07:25 PM
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Quote:
I know there are a few that would.



In all reality Nondi would be acting as Hanse’s XO - second-in-command – and as for the Skye forces, Nondi would keep them in line.
If you are concerned about regional forces then consider those from the Draconis March and their opposite numbers within the Draconis Combine – How are they going to take orders that they must word alongside those from the Federated Suns / Draconis Combine as Allies.
This is where Careful planning regarding assignment allocation.
<Though it would add to the drama.>

Quote:
Ripping on canon - Still getting the only way it can be done, and you don't accept that is wasn't is supporting this.



I disagree – distorting the narrative in order to achieve a pre-determined result / lack of Beta and Focus Group Testing / Inability to expand the narrative to consider the multiple strategies that are required / Inability to ensure character the continuation of client development and finally producing a story that is lacking in development and results in multiple fundamental errors in understanding the societies they have established through their House / Clan societies descriptions is in no way “ripping on canon”.
Constructive Criticism is required – why Brand Development and the future expansion of the business so that it can prosper in the future. As is it appears as if the franchise is not developing and expanding – there needs to be a aim of returning to the 80’s – there needs to be not only a re-penetration into the market there also needs to be a re-awareness of the Band other than as a computer game.
To achieve this there is but one way <in my opinion> – A new entrepreneurial spirit / white knight who will introduce, First a new space opera to capture the imagination of youth – Second, transforming said Space Opera into a new vibrant anime … whist at the same time use this to reinvigorate the Brand – increase new books and profitability and expand the target market
The Warrior arc is satisfactory as is …. Just kill off the CC and turn them into a government in exile / freedom force with Kali in charge …. As her brand of chaos is a good thing …. And fighting to re-establish an empire by “Mulan” would make for a good side story in order to capture a new demographic target market.
The Clan arc is the perfect choice for a total reinvigoration of the band, however ….
What is it that I find important within a vast space war opera ….
Making a strong multi dimensional story – from all areas of the military;
Important action scenes – ensure the totality of each side’s TO&E is utilized in all battle scenes – make it realistic and believable;
Believable dialogue;
Believable strategies and even some not so believable strategies that extend the realm of possibilities; <didn’t the canon invasion seem a little boring (and dated when attempting to re-read now – changes in target market sophistication?) to you as all it considered was those forces on the front line – and then only from the Mech warriors point of view?>
<How many different and exiting side stories can you introduce? Consider all the different ones I have championed and this in no way all of them that can be considered.>
Drama – multiple love interests wouldn’t hurt;
Do not make the story so one sided;
A story that you want to relive over and over – make you feel like you are there with the characters;
If something like this does not occur very soon can anyone see the Table Top / Novel Brands prosper long term? As competition is aggressively reducing / eroding the Brand awareness / viability in the market.

Quote:
Missed the point yet again. Most clanners, freeborn and trueborn do not even attempt to discuss clan ways of doing things



Anastasius Focht as envoy to the Clans;
1st Sommerset Strikers and the capture of Kristen;
Victor’s Bondswomen – Tiaret Nevversan;
Clan Nova Cat – dialogue with the Draconis Combine;
Clan Ghost Bear – “Tensions between former citizens of the FRR and the Ghost Bears were also eased as those living within the Dominion were granted a great deal of freedom, including in how they were ruled, while the Ghost Bears themselves began to embrace the Inner Sphere's way of life.”

Would say otherwise …

Quote:
Those that would, are not going to explain how they limited the number of warriors that are born, nor the training process in any depth.



Don’t need the Clans to explain. Wolfs Dragoons provided this information, and in depth. As this is where Victor and the other scions were put through a brief training regime and during his trial of position and where he won his BattleMech – that he would go on to name Prometheus.

The idea of sibkos as well as their limited replacement numbers were known to all of the leaders at this point in time.
Though it must have been obvious that there were problems with regards to replacement personnel in the event they are able to track individual units and their ongoing TO&E.

Quote:
Asking how their society works is saying you have no idea, and that alone would cause them to realize it is not something to talk about.



Getting someone to open up about themselves is a basic employment interview strategy. Most people are more than willing to proselytize of their values / beliefs / country of origin – same here. Since when would any Clans’ freeborn be trained not to talk to IS strangers? As this wouldn’t be high on their list of things to do ….
And clearly a lack of understanding as to a Black Market – go to any famers / new-age market and everything is discussed.
As for Psy-ops there is no evidence of it ever been utilized within the game, if it had then the effects would have been vastly different.

Quote:
There is nothing like the clans in history



Spartans
Roman Legionnaires
There are many examples of utilizing this type of training ….. it is common for a warrior society to adopt this system ….

If the clans do not have training programs that include – management – Logistics – etc then their ability to wage war within the IS would be less than stellar as the IS will run rings around them …. Consumables issues, food / water issues, spare parts issues …. etc etc

If the Clan rely on freeborn to undertake their logistics …. What fun psy-ops could have here …..

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I see a lot of weapons that would drop a drone.



Really? …. At what altitude are your drones at ?

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And you don't need super sensitive equipment to find weather balloons.



You can see a balloon 20Km in the air? – as they are not that large …. Sorry but the naked eyes will not be able to see them

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So going from a single person gathering information to a full network of people to gather the information is how it will play out?



A Corps of infantry as well as those from all the other information gathering units would collate the data ……. Would be in overall control …. On the ground it depends on each partisan units cell numbers as well as those that assist them …. Have a look at the film a Bridge too Far …..

Going full energy weapons – cannibalize from those that did not win the Batchall

Logistics – lack of supplies was not even considered in Canon

Elementals sneaking up is a very real possibility and should be included ….
ghostrider
08/14/20 09:10 PM
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In the books Hanse joked that the Draconis March might join the FRR. But the question was who would ignore Hanse's orders? That question came up before, and several suggestions were given. It may well be Nondi is in charge of the LC half, so all decisions are her's, even with Hanse being ruler. It is possible Hanse stepped back to let Victor do more of the planning, though we do know how well that would turn out.
It may well be the lack of information prevented him from getting things done right. And Comstar is yet another possibility. OR all of them combined. But the most likely is that TPTB didn't want to make the clans work for their initial gains.

Believable story line seems to be one that few share or even discuss, is a problem with the clan invasion. Most seem to agree the Jihad is garbage, but the clans not anywhere close. Presentation of how things are done is where bagfest from 3025 onwards seems to stem from. But you being a pro writer, it does exactly what is written.

Ulric wanted a way to stop the clans, so giving information to Focht was the way he saw it.
The whole Summerset Strikers story line is garbage no matter how you put it. That was done so the audience that didn't play the game could understand the cartoon's storyline. So that is not valid.
The Nova Cats/Ghost Bears were moving into the IS. But again. This was AFTER the invasion. For the most part, the Dragoons were the main information source of the clans to the IS leaders, and they didn't give up as much as hoped. And it was dated as well. The leaders did NOT go on air and explain the clans to the population, so they were in the dark about it, The intel departments still couldn't get enough to do more then general warnings.
And now let's see. A very few Specific people talked about the clans. Maybe 100 or so, if that?

Still not registering the fact that the Dragoon information was dated. How limited is the beginning of this issue. How many sibkos were started when they were bulding up to the invasion? Did they lessen the requirements to gain more then normal? Given the clans philosophy, I would think they didn't lessen the requirements. Some use freeborns. Now here is a kicker. The Dragoons had NO clue who would be chosen/win the right to invade, so they could not be sure that more clans were simply waiting for their turn to begin their runs. Much like the truce fight was done. And with that, trust was an issue with the leaders and the Dragoons. So grain of salt would be another hinderence.

The clans do not seem to be the social animals you portrait them to be. Granted, the trueborns are the main focus, so the freeborns might be more open. The general attitude towards the IS was disdain. You would speak to them like you would ordering food. Keep it short and to the point. For some, just having them around was more then they could stand. These are unclean barbarians. Maybe a while down the line might have had them talk more, but for the first few waves, I seriously doubt it. And yes. The clan support personnel would remain on base. It was far safer for them.

Actually, there is a very big way Psy-ops was used in the game. If not for Trent taking his bondsman and trusting her, the 'exodus' road would never have been mapped. More then a few warriors found the leaders using politics to promote warriors instead of them showing their skills. The merchants were spreading the disease of plenty to the clans all over the place, including the home worlds. For someone that looks for things to harp on, you miss a lot when it comes time to see what did happen. Again, another thing that leads to the conclusion that this is just one big bagfest.

So the Spartans, Legionares and such had several light years gap between them and anything that could be shown as a different system working besides theirs? Funny. They were all earthbound. And they were completely isolated to prevent any news from getting in to the population about other systems?
Wow. You finally got a clue on why they said the clans were not ready for any sort of long battles. They just did not pay attention to supplies. They deal with supply needs for maybe a month in advanced, max. I don't see anywhere in the clans home worlds that would take that much time to get munitions and such from the depots to the units that ordered it. Only Ulric bothered to learn anything. So yes, they had a place to learn it, but it was not a required course to being promoted.

Exactly. What altitude would you be flying at? Sniper rifles, anti air guns, for the game rules any mech weapon with a range of 4 or more. And the stupid thing is drones only became 'popular' with the SDS systems. As agreed upon, that was one of the biggest issues with the game. Now tie that to no remote controls, and you basically destroy anything that is an automated defense.

What military base does not have radar and such working? Look outs checking for that very thing, as balloons are a way to drop ordinance on the base by surprise. With the clans, elementals as well as mechs would be watching for that.

Again, you show no understanding of the game with the idea of the clans cannibalizing IS weapons. It would not be done. Not ever when it is SL weapons on the downed mechs. First off is the taint that is considered with IS weapons. But more to the point, the clan weapons are superior in every way, and the clan front lines do NOT use standard weapons. They are all er/pulse with less weight/criticals. Which is important as swapping out an ERML for a normal ML would throw off the targeting system, even after you get it fitted into a pod. Coolant lines as well as powerlines and such would be a royal pain, and that is if they would even try. Taking IS ammo is more likely. Which is one of those things I have an issue with in the stories. The IS ammo does the same thing as the clans, yet somehow doesn't perform the same in IS weapons as they do in clan weapons.
And salvaging the omnis that were not part of the bid does not solve the issue with no supplies. It only removes units from service, which are used in other assaults or to put down revolts that the PGC/second line can't. This also leads to move trials as those with the units you want to salvage WILL absolutely refused to give them up. Most would be from different units entirely.

The lack of supplies what used in canon. It did not cripple the clans so they could not advance, but it slowed down how many worlds were attacked in future waves. It is even stated that way in the books. So read the print, not what you want to see in the stories.
And so you know, the elementals DID sneak up on units. A few stories said the tankers didn't even know they were on the field until items started getting destroyed. One had a crew member turn around in a Striker, I believe, only to see the gunner being pulled out of the now destroyed turret by an elemental. This is part of why the developers decided to have tanks do even more poorly against the clans. Elementals were 'able' to counter normal infantry as well as most of the fighting vehicles.
Requiem
08/15/20 09:38 AM
1.158.133.26

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Quote:
Ulric wanted a way to stop the clans, so giving information to Focht was the way he saw it.



Surreptitiously – too many witnesses for anything overt!

Quote:
The whole Summerset Strikers story line is garbage no matter how you put it.



This “garbage” is also canon https://www.sarna.net/wiki/1st_Somerset_Strikers
“….established the 1st Somerset Strikers and their exploits as shown in the show as canonical at least in broad strokes.”
And as far as TPTB are concerned their commanding officer went on to become Archon. (even though it is completely against the laws of succession!)
No matter how you look at it Clan warriors did discuss information when they become bondsman.

Quote:
Still not registering the fact that the Dragoon information was dated.



When did historical information change?
When was the last time anyone changed the traditions and fighting styles of the Clans, I mean the cans are not that hidebound?
When the last time there were resupplied and supplied with Omni Mechs – Case in point Victor’s Omni – could this be used to extrapolate clan technology?
When was the last time anyone ever changed the sibko numbers being produced each year? (at the bare minimum this would provide a starting point when analyzing information.)

However the big question regarding the dragoons was never answered …

When Wolf met his Khan for the last time and was ordered to assist the IS with preparations for the upcoming invasion – why didn’t he obey the order?, as doing nothing until the year of peace seems like did virtually nothing to me.
All he did was allow Natasha to reform a Clan Cluster with stars rather than lances ….
How about providing information to NASIS as to Omni-Mech / Fighter Technology as well as Elemental technology as well as Warship technology?
Half hearted? And why?

So, Replacement personnel…
Didn’t lessen the requirements ….; and
No to the increasing freeborn numbers
They are really in it now …. For the next twenty years all clans will have to reconsider their next steps vary carefully lest attrition of their forces will in all likelihood lead to a. destruction at the hands of the IS or b. destruction at the hands of another Clan when they initiate a trial of absorption ….

Quote:
The general attitude towards the IS was disdain.



How long did that last East / West Germany post Berlin Wall?
Remember Closed Society Vs Open Society – add one freeborn, time, booze and fun and you have a friend for life …. University life ….

Quote:
The clan support personnel would remain on base. It was far safer for them.



Then who is going to do all the shopping, and all the other chores, and who is going to interact with all the IS freeborn day in and day out where a simple message would get things done – the warriors – little beneath them!
Also going to see the planet’s representatives yourself is not how you instill power – you need to send one of your minions out and tell the person in question they need to come before their Clan overlords to discuss something …. Basic power trip psychology 101.

Quote:
If not for Trent taking his bondsman and trusting her, the 'exodus' road would never have been mapped.



And what of all the freeborn within their PGCs and all their support positions – how many could have been converted?

The question that was asked was “There is nothing like the clans in history. Sending warriors to school ….”

Schooling via sibko is virtually the same as that of a Spartan and legionary joining in his youth and leaning everything before being assigned to a Legion …..
So take away all the trappings and the technology and there is a very close comparison …

Quote:
They just did not pay attention to supplies. They deal with supply needs for maybe a month in advanced, max. I don't see anywhere in the clans home worlds that would take that much time to get munitions and such from the depots to the units that ordered it.



Please then extrapolate this to their time in the IS – how would a major military force survive for any period of time with this type of attitude?
Again it is clear if the Clans you are alluding to have this attitude to war they would not have lasted very long …

Quote:
With the clans, elementals as well as mechs would be watching for that.



Since when did Mech sensors get this advanced – even Clan ones when you consider the canon rage of their probes?
Unless there is a home rule is made to fix them as per original doctrine this doesn’t work – eye sight is better than many of the probes ?

Quote:
Going full energy weapons – cannibalize from those that did not win the Batchall



Above my quote –
Now your quote – “Again, you show no understanding of the game with the idea of the clans cannibalizing IS weapons.”
Notice the problem? I stated that the winning clan bid could cannibalize weapons from the failed bid’s mechs post Batchall – doesn’t this imply that the weapons are clan?

Quote:
And salvaging the omnis that were not part of the bid does not solve the issue with no supplies. It only removes units from service, which are used in other assaults or to put down revolts that the PGC/second line can't. This also leads to move trials as those with the units you want to salvage WILL absolutely refused to give them up. Most would be from different units entirely.



No supplies … no to little consumables and a major engagement …. As commander what are you going to do …. Fight amongst yourself … deplete pilots even more or come up with a compromise ? maybe taking that course on HRM wasn’t the worst idea?

Quote:
It did not cripple the clans so they could not advance, but it slowed down how many worlds were attacked in future waves. It is even stated that way in the books. So read the print, not what you want to see in the stories.



Again with sub-par plot development …. Decreasing logistics will cripple the clans …. Tyranny of distance ….
Time to understand the reality of war … logistics are just that important….

Quote:
Elementals were 'able' to counter normal infantry as well as most of the fighting vehicles.



First, compare numbers – the entire number of Toads a Clan Has to just one RCT Infantry
Second compare weapons IS has available to kill Toads with and the ranges to which they can use them
Anti tank weapons are not that new, as well as the idea of envelopment strategies due to overwhelming numbers
High powered sniper rifles 2Km is not beyond the realm of possibility.
Mass Inferno SRM swarm attack by Infantry Companies (one to a person)
Then if they get real close there is a pistol that fires an anti tank round …. And was used in WW2 ….. Sturmpistole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmpistole
So again why are WW2 infantry weapons more effective against the Clans?
Then there are the massive lists of support weapons available for infantry – and yet somehow were never allowed in the game against the clans.
I would also like to point out Clan armor is large and very bulky – going through any forest type area is going to be both difficult and loud when they crash through everything …. Subtlety thy name is not an Elemental ……
Also what ever happened to the IS sneak suits?
ghostrider
08/15/20 11:52 AM
66.74.60.165

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You mean having him watch rituals of bidding, as well as how each clan operates isn't overt? Oh yeah. It is meer bragging how great they are. And allowing him to ask questions of the staff and troops wasn't overt. They didn't invite the other house leaders to witness this, even though clan honor would allow them safecon if bargained for.

Historical information isn't what was the topic. Things like how many sibkos were put into the system to prepare for this? Did the clans historically against freeborns, allow them to be part of the military? What upgrades have been done since they stopped talking to the clans? And a few traditions were ignore by some during the invasion. More after the clans lost. The first printed was when the Falcons hit the Bears water purifier on a world, and never issued a batchall for the raid.
This also does not say if the toumans were expanded, IE binaries becoming trinarires, or even adding in a new galaxy to the mix.

Victor's omni is something that proves the Dragoons did make clan tech. The parts to keep it running could not be salvaged from the battlefield like you would think. The weapons and such were clan, not recovered SL tech. So there would have to be a stack of spares lying around. And this is not covering the machines recovered in the 10ths runs against the clans. But so far, it seems everyone agrees the IS should have been making clan tech, and the expense reason is bs.

Another example of not reading the actual books. Sibko numbers have constantly changed during the history of the clans. They get adjusted for things like heavy losses, or even light losses. Large amounts of bondsmen will get them to lower the numbers. There are only 800 blood names. To prevent internal fighting that would happen if you say double the numbers that can compete for them, they tend to stick to certain numbers of warriors. Except for absorbsion of new names, they kept a relative number on how many warriors were in each clan. Otherwise, things like clans becoming smaller because of a lack of numbers would never have happened. Yes, time to raise the warriors would have an impact on it, but they could recover.

Funny that the little 'broad strokes' seems to have been ignored in that. Much like HBS game, there are only parts of it canon. They only allowed it as it was to promote the game. It was something that showed what was going on during the invasion, but made up things that were NOT canon. The story line for the cartoon was garbage, as it conflicted with the written rules of the time. The actual story itself did the same thing. It was all retconned into the game.
ghostrider
08/15/20 12:06 PM
66.74.60.165

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Comprehension seems to have failed, so time to educate you on things. First off, helping the IS means what? Showing them how to fight the clans? Ok. Composition and tactics covers that.
Weapons? Do you think the IS would not have taken that and destroyed any chance they had of repulsing the clans by not going to war as soon as they had them? And with the issue Jamie had with the FWL and the DC, would he have left them out of the deal? The FWL was not as bad as the DC, and was far enough in the past, that logic would say that Joshua and the others died while they were part of a civil war.
Telling the leaders before hand, that they were spies for the SLDF would have had them laughed at, up to arrested and executed.
Now they could well have increased the concepts that would defeat the clans, like help Hanse realize the RCTs were a good thing, and to expand that. The LC, they left, but I believe part of that is the crappy social generals, as well as needing to scout the DC. It was written that they didn't know WHEN the invasion would happen, just that it WOULD happen, and soon.
Working and training other mercs as another step. Improving skill levels would help all, even if they couldn't match the clans weapons or tactics, it would still take a toll on the clans numbers.

You are once again putting the end results and suggesting the middle would have known those facts. They did not have a resource book that told everything available to them at the time. So they did not know if any changes to increase the numbers had happened. So that is another logic hole forming in the perfect solution. Adding in information that was not available at the time.

Let's see. How long was East Germany out of contact with ANYTHING to do with West Germany and the rest of the world? A huge factor in the way things are different between the clans and everything else. NO examples of life, other then what you got makes you believe that anyone that tells you otherwise is creating a fantasy.
This would also include little things like luxuries thrown over the wall, as well as propaganda units constantly telling the others how their side was so much better, and the other stunk.
And dictatorships love to change history books. So the glowing scene of what happened, gets changed to the barbarians despoiling the paradise. Nothing but word history is left to counter this, and you are taught the dictators truths. Nothing to really show otherwise. And again, NO one else near you to contradict it. Complete isolation
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