ghostrider
09/12/20 02:46 AM
66.74.60.165
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You really do not understand balance beyond everyone having the same units, numbers and all around equipment. The social generals in the game kept the LC from using their economic might to just roll over the other houses. Removing, or worse, saddling the other house sterilizes the game. Just like removing the WMD, it basically prevents any sort of advantage/disadvantage of each house. Next you will be saying all houses need to have strict adherence to bushido and there is no discord in each realm. And you say that your game wouldn't be full of logic holes.
You really need to reread the clans trials of position. The only way to gain more then three kills is to start a grand melee sort of fight. Read Aidan and Natasha for full details on that one. This should not have to even be suggested, as ANYONE actually reading the books knows this.
Do you understand combat experience? From the response, it seems like you don't have a clue. Experience doesn't rely on reacting to someone, but almost knowing what they will do before they do, and using that to defeat them. You don't have to be able to flick an arm to cover a location, as you already have it moving before the enemy even thinks of dodging that direction. But there is SOME reflexes needed. And after fighting for 60 plus years, Natasha was beyond anything the clans have ever dealt with. You want to say age would prevent her from beating those a quarter of her age? You don't really understand those that keep in shape in their 80s and 90s. The only difference is the clans breed their warriors and take the top ones for becoming a trained warrior. That is the ONLY reason why they would be 'harder' to beat.
Suggest you forget all the crap of history, and focus on what is actually printed and said about the game you are trying to rip apart. The clans are NOT like anything in history. The BS of one unit does not compare to EVERY warrior in all of the clans. Trying to even put them in the same league is part of why you can't even begin to understand the clan warrior.
There is always deaths in combat. Elementals against mech warriors in mechs always results in deaths, as the elementals tend to die with their armor. And with the power of the weapons they have, they do kill each other more often then you want to suggest. But this would be obvious if you read the actual written words, and not day dream of how you want them to be.
You mean each clan did not divide their route into sections in order to adhere to the order of no one ship had the entire route in their jump computers? Might need to reread the highlanders book where they start hitting the Jaguars and have to raid the Nova Cats in order to break out of the Jaguar's world. They each had their own route to bring supplies into the IS. The split in each clan having a single piece of the route is garbage beyond bs. And remember this when you suggest the Dragoons have it all again.
And by the way. Look at the map of the exodus road, and the invasion route. It is NOT the same thing.
Another thing you don't comprehend is the fact that the Outbound light would have had their flight routes set up in advance, so if anything happened to them, Comstar would know where to look. So once they jumped to Huntress, they would pretty much know WHERE the Outbound was lost at. It would be limited to a few systems. OOOOPPPPSSS.
What? The game doesn't have the watch spying on the other clans in order to find their supplies? You mean they aren't the despicable IS counterparts? That each clan did not really think they needed to do such things, until after three of them started getting their butts stopped from being the jagernaut they thought they were? You say they were totally inept, but yet they did far more then you think they did.
The merchant caste is only partially part of each clan. The overall control of the ships is the grand council. Each clan has a limited amount of ships they 'own', and anything beyond that is hired. Another thing spelled out in the books that seems to have been missed.
As stated before, when you asked about the FS economy, it is stated in the NAIS review of the 4th war. It was shown a while back in one of the threads, and you said you didn't have access to them. Which is yet another reason why you don't understand things. You have not READ all the books. And the information in the Galtor campaign says directly the DC removed people from worlds they captured in order to ensure the locals don't give them grief. As done in history of the entire feudal society, so is it done in the IS.
Now saying the Piranha effect doesn't exist means you have no clue on the IS. But then you think removing all troops to form a major strike group is possible without opening up holes in your entire realm. The Piranha effect runs directly opposite of this concept, so you choose to ignore it.
Who said they had a detailed account of the IS military? They would have had some details and a lot of general information. The fact that any houses having warships would be recorded in the computer files as well as known by the crews. They would have military information, and such events as the FC becoming a reality. Really showing you haven't even thought of the most common issues thru, so the more complex leaves others wondering.
The entire premise of the alt is taking the end information and changing it so the canon version can't happen, then you say canon is wrong because the alt did this or that. Not my opinion, but the way it is written. I have been the vocal one calling this out, but not the only one that has seen it.
Oh, I don't know. Having the HPG network up and running would allow the IS invasion to keep in contact with the home worlds, as the Ilclan would need to do so, as they could not be in the IS and clan worlds at the same time. So they would need the HPG network up and running. The clan civilians were not seen until they started arriving in the FRR as the Ghost Bears were coming to stay. So your Psy ops wouldn't happen until AFTER the first few waves. Not as soon as they invaded, nor would it show any effects for a while. And what do you know, canon DID have those very things affect the clans. Again, it was just not the way you wanted.
Still not understanding the fuel isn't the issue with fusion engines. The materials needed to make them is. With the change from radioactives, it pretty much destroys the entire history of the IS. The skills required to make them was considered an issue as well. The fact the Defiance opened up their own Fusion engine manufacturing plant allowed them to increase the numbers of units they made.
Wick. Requiem has always changed to the alt when his 'facts' about canon are proven wrong. He has been using alt 'facts' to say canon is wrong. Not sure how long you have been following this conversation over several threads. I keep calling him out when the terms like 'only viable solution', 'can't possibly happen that way', 'I don't accept it', and others keep showing up, which keeps the discussion of canon can't be wrong as it uses the developers ideas and numbers, that don't match the alt.
I can tell you why the alt can't do those things. It means the alt is full of holes, and they could still hurt the FS. He is trying to rewrite the story so that can't happen.
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Requiem
09/12/20 08:32 AM
1.158.133.26
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I've scoured the source books for this information.
And when you do a thorough investigation ….and if you use an Xcel sheet …… Just for Independent Regiments you get the following …..Then consider the rules for each where you have stated a “probably a mix of mech and armor” it gets far more complicated …..
15 Royal CAAN Marine
9 Royal Light Horse - light-to-medium weight 'Mechs and vehicles, at least two companies used dedicated information-gathering units like Ostscouts.
40 Light Horse - light-to-medium weight 'Mechs and vehicles, at least two companies used dedicated information-gathering units like Ostscouts.
7 Royal Hussar - composed of medium-to-heavy 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft.
42 Hussar Regiment - composed of medium-to-heavy 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft.
8 Royal Dragoon - consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs, with each battalion having a fourth company of artillery
63 Dragoon - consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs, with each battalion having a fourth company of artillery
1 Dracon
3 Royal Striker - Composed of light-to-medium weight 'Mechs a Recon company of Land Air 'Mechs and usually pairs of ASF.
20 Striker - Composed of light-to-medium weight 'Mechs a Recon company of Land Air 'Mechs and usually pairs of ASF.
3 Royal Heavy Assault - consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs, with each battalion having a fourth company of artillery
15 Heavy Assault - consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs, with each battalion having a fourth company of artillery
18 Battle - consisting of medium-to-heavy weight 'Mechs.
4 Heavy Tank
1 Medium Tank
1 Light Tank
1 Royal Hover Armor
2 Hover Armor
1 wheeled Armor
2 Artillery Regiment
3 Mechanized Infantry
1 Jump Infantry
2 Marine Infantry
1 Royal French Demi
3 French Infantry
2 French Cavalry
1 Grunt Infantry
2 Royal Independent Aero Wing
13 Independent Aero Wing
When added to all the information for all 20 Army groups you get vastly different figures ….
So go to https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force and use a excell sheet …..
Then go through all the years and actually read about the units that the RWR sent to each of Periphery states as well as invading the Terran Hegemony …..
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So your claim of DCMS+Periphery taking on the SLDF doesn't work.
Did you ever consider that I realized this from the get go ….. why don’t you read the forum page entitled – Issues with regards to the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War.
This is why I completed re-wrote everything …..stating my conspiracy to build all the forces necessary to defeat the SLDF shortly after the Reunification war and taking all this time to build a hidden army large enough ….. also during this the RWR brought the DC into the scheme to over throw the SLDF …… thus I completely ditched the Canon figures and came up with ones more conducive to upcoming war ……
Why anyone would assume I would use the Canon figures for a war of this scope is beyond me …..
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So 20 Year Update is both right and wrong?
The 20 year update is correct for its time - however for me I have killed off the CC and added in additional forces to compensate for the FC and St Ives
However all Canon books going forward from this time forward are not to be considered accurate …..
Go through every Battle and investigate the status of every FC unit that fought the Clans – keep a running tally as to their fate ….
Then subtract this from the 20 year update
Then see what you get ……
Also on a side note you will note that the FC only used about 8% of its available forces to engage against the Clans for the entire invasion – can anyone explain why?
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I said Smoke Jaguar may have made up a sufficiently high number (more than Wolf's Dragoons had estimated) to fool the rest of the Clan Council into immediate action.
The problem with using the Dragoons figures is that it is now nearing 30 years since it was received in 3019-20. Thus cannot be considered to be reliable – as for the outbound light, it is a civilian ship – wouldn’t every clan want to conduct an inquiry themselves – wouldn’t the grand council want to interrogate the CO and the XO within the chamber to authenticate the information the Jaguars are presenting within the chamber?
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we're arguing what's possible in the canon universe.
Fine …. You want to go there then lets go there ….
As noted above you do recognize that the 20 year update on page 19 states mech strength is 268 regiments and 1 battalion in 3050.
Thus being only 32 regiments short or the 300 ….
Battlefield damage as to the FC forces should be taken into consideration …. also
In killing off the CC – battle salvage alone I should be able to cobble together a minimum of 4-6 Regiments worth – In addition to this I also offered amnesty to any CC merc unit who would be willing to stand down during this war and allow their contract to be picked up by the FC – my bet I at least got 5-6 units who did not fight for the CC and decided to switch sides (at the minimum) …
this also gives me complete access to the CC military industrial complexes – ie. their BattleMech Manufacturing facilities for 10 years.
During this time I also get complete access to the CC economy …..
In all that time all I need to do is create is approximately 2.5 regiments per year utilizing the complete FC military industrial complex – and give the fact that no one can argue with numbers as there are no definitive numbers I made the unilateral decision that 750 Mechs per year was a reasonable out-put for the entire new FC to manufacture for an entire year to go towards increasing the military …. (why – we will need at least a 3 to 1 ratio before be kill off the DC – as I have cut a deal with the FWL – Victor and Isis have been betrothed as babies thus cementing a non aggression alliance with the FWL and an agreement to recognize Victor and Isis as the next First Lord of the IS with the re-establishment of the SL once the DC have been dealt with by the FC – so with a political alliance I amay even be able to purchase Mechs from the FWL at the same time –but even if I don’t include this it is still achievable to create the 300 with just the FC on its own)
As in all reality all we are doing is increasing the military budget a slight amount for BattleMechs when the real expense is going to Naval procurement and the establishment of new hidden dockyards ….
And before you say this is impossible may I remind you of the canon difference in CC military between the 20 year update and their next House Book that came out – which clearly shows that if the CC is managed correctly you can get this amount out of them ….. with just the CC military industrial complex on their own!
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but the Clans can't reciprocate to meet their needs?
Again you are putting words in my mouth as I did not say that – they are constrained by their Bids for military hardware.
For Civilian hardware they are constrained by their populations –one planet in one House can have a greater population than all the clans and the imbalance in workforce becomes evident …. 3062 Total Clan Population 1,151,525,500 – so only 1.15 Billion – and remember Rasalhague on its own has a population of 5 Billion – that’s close to 5 times the entire population of all the Clans …..so you can see why I state the idea of just one the Clans Garrisoning Rasalhague is a myth ….
There is a clear and evident disparity in production capabilities between the two – then the fact that the IS can reverse engineer clan tech and at the same time and they have also used their psy-opts teams to convince who knows how many techs to defect to the IS ….
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Are the Clans just simply not smart enough to perform a buildup to suit their needs?
Problem is there is no evidence to suggest they did …. So again lets guess …. But the fact remains they are constrained by their Bids and their society norms when it comes to war within the IS …..
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As I pointed out, the IS can't kill off the Clan pilots fast enough because they don't have the war material to do it.
Problem with your calculations …. And the Loss Depletion Report …
The is a number of Clan forces faced at any one time …
The fact that figures are based upon battles only ….
They do not take into consideration losses due to partisan assassinations / IEDs … remember that once you crunch the numbers most garrisons would have to be at trinary level otherwise your forces on the front lines will deplete too fast to actually reach terra as your Clan forces numbers are constrained by your original bid!
They do not take into consideration the losses sustained when IS forces attack clans transport ships carrying replacement personnel
They also do not take in consideration losses due to psy-ops teams convincing freeborn techs etc and PGCs to defect to the IS.
Also it does not take into consideration what happens when the IS is able to reverse engineer Clan Tech and mass produce it for their own forces …
It also does not take into consideration the shift in the infantry – 100% sneak suits + Jump + SRM (Hellfire) and what happens when a gum manufacture builds a sniper rifle and uranium depleted round for the rifle and it is built en mass for all infantry forces within the IS ….. barbeque Toad all round!
It also does not take into consideration what happens when tactics change from the duels to that of the attrition warfare …
It also does not take into consideration what happens if one of the clans goes too far and kills off a massive population similar to Kentares (and the Jags could do it! – their culture is just too alien to consider the Ares Convention Treaties)
What happens if any of the Houses gets so enraged by the clans that they switch to First Succession War Tactics and the being whole scale nuclear war …..
Time to face facts the Loss depletion report will be way higher than anything your espousing
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When the Truce of Tukayyid expired, the Clans would resume devastating the Inner Sphere and the IS really wouldn't have been ready to stop them.
Which demonstrates how badly written the story is (again in my opinion)
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they don't have the machines to turn the tide
Then where did all the new IS Mechs come from in regards to the all the TROs past 3050 …..
Sorry to say but there appears to be a massive misunderastaning as to production numbers – but this is the point – when there are no production numbers given you can just make up whatever you want and say that because I said so you have to agree with it!
Anyone can say anything and as long as it is half way plausible it can be considered to be viable ….
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The Inner Sphere's unlimited personnel resource is hampered by a limited production capacity.
This is why I stated that all houses should shift to Total War production or something close to it – as seen in WW2 with Rosie the Riveter – posters making a come back! Which is exactly what stage 1 is! Or and as for small arms – no this is why you have Infantry armed with sneak suits and jump jets and SPMs (Hellfire) and sniper rifles to go Toad hunting!
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And I've no idea how IS soldiers would be able to kill any pilots of the home clans with snipers and IEDs.
This is why you have a 100 year war! With multiple wars on multiple fronts throughout the Deep Periphery between the two realms!
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just to make Mr Requiem right. Truly astounding powers these Spheroids in your home campaigns must have.
Levity and sophistry and opinions based upon ……?
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Now pirates don't have money either?
It is not about having money - it is about what you do with that money!
Merchant Class Jump-Ship – Cost 384,711,675 C-bills
Why bother spending the money on a Jump-ship when you can emigrate to anywhere in the IS and live the good life?
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canon is rife with refugees moving to other plants (such as FRR citizens fleeing to the Illyrian Palatinate) - if refugee groups can afford to transport half way across the Inner Sphere (dozens of jumps), why can't a pirate group afford to make two jumps (there and back)?
If this is so then can you explain to ghostrider why I can produce a massive armada to strike at the clans to being my war of attrition?
Can someone please make up their mind – does the IS either have an adequate supply of Jumpships to allow all the menial things get done + all the military – or is the an absence of them making them rare thus restricting the IS’s movement of people and military at any one point in time …. As there is no information on the subject as to the number of ships available who is right? …..
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The presence of garrison troops on backwater worlds indicates pirates are at least common enough to warrant their necessity.
And it also could be political – showing the flag – keeping the local populations in order / rule of law – in order to maintain tax and good order / make sure the local governor / lord is not up to something they shouldn’t be …..
It is not only about what is beyond the border it is also what is within the border that you need your military out there ….
As for pirates …. When you have decided on the availability of Jumpships let me know as this will determine the scale of damage they can inflict …..
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Let's do some more math here.
• The Pirate force has only one working Merchant Jumpship and that one is in need of an over haul for the past 50 years – that means they can only attach two dropships – however their dropships are also in need of repair
• How much damage can this one pirate ship do if the FC are hunting for it and know the approximate location of its next target – or better yet in 3007 (approx) the FC re-contract the Dragoons to wipe Tortuga clean once more?
Numbers Tonto! ….. how many ships (Jump and Drop) and in what quality …. And who are they owned by?
You want raider groups then work it out!
The problem is there are no figures there is only conjecture – even in the Cannon Universe does anyone know how many pirate groups are operational at any one point in time?
So again – work it out – how many and who and where?
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Pirates need only wait an average of twelves weeks in this scenario for a jumpship to come along
Only on well established routes – and then there is the pesky problem of where they jumped into the jump point as they could be 100 km away or 10,000 Km away from you when they arrive – as we must remember that space is a vast area – thus turning your idea of waiting for a jump-ship to come along into a crap shoot as to how far away it is and the time it would take to get out to it as well as how good (range) their radar is thus turning your surprise raid into a hot charge of the engine to jump out and escape your pirate group as they do not have surprise and location on their side.
Thus turning your possibility of pirates hitching a ride / capturing a ride into a massive crap game due to the tyranny of distance once more! (ie plausible story into an implausible story – roll a D10,000 and chose 1 number to see how far away they are.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
09/12/20 09:06 AM
1.158.133.26
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You really do not understand balance beyond everyone having the same units, numbers and all around equipment. The social generals in the game kept the LC from using their economic might to just roll over the other houses.
Is this seen anywhere in the real world?
What about the Clans and their weapons / speed / armor / piloting / gunnery – how fair was that?
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The only way to gain more then three kills is to start a grand melee sort of fight.
And if you are really lucky you could do it without starting one – if you are very lucky and you roll back to back head shots then what? Statistically speaking it is possible ….
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Do you understand combat experience?
You do know what happens to a person’s body as they get older and how the neron pathways begin to degrade thus the persons reaction time begins to slow dramatically when they get to Natasha’s age – thus a 20 something pilot with faster reaction skills will just walk over her – question in which army do you see fighter pilots who are in their late 60’s early 70’s?
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The clans are NOT like anything in history.
Yes they are … the more things change the more things stay the same!
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You mean each clan did not divide their route into sections in order to adhere to the order of no one ship had the entire route in their jump computers?
May routes at either end – one route along the centre ….
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Another thing you don't comprehend is the fact that the Outbound light would have had their flight routes set up in advance
Sorry but no …. This is why you have scientists on board and large computers are on board to assist with jump calculations – each ship must have a degree of autonomy as the computers / observatories within the Inner Sphere cannot see behind the Nebula protecting the Clan home worlds so it is up to each ship to determine their own course.
Also if they did have a route provided by ComStar this would point to the fact that the Dragoons gave it to them!
So no Comstar doesn’t have a clue as to the exact location of the Outbound light ….
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The game doesn't have the watch spying on the other clans in order to find their supplies?
Thus showing how limited the game is
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The merchant caste is only partially part of each clan. The overall control of the ships is the grand council.
Where does it say this? – they are pare to their own Clan
Is this all you want to do - drag everything back to Canon and never alow anyone to express any freedom of thought?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/12/20 01:57 PM
66.74.60.165
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So part one of the logic failure comes from not wanting the SL to fall to Amaris now becomes the DC and Amaris destroying the SL. Granted, the idea that Kerensky must die, and not take the SLDF out into the periphery means no clans can be formed.
Then the succession wars would not have been done as they did, or were far worse as the only time nukes would stop falling is when all sides were out of the materials needed to make them. But then someone puts in a ban on those sorts of weapons and all sides stick to it. Failure on a grand scale with this one.
So with the three houses against the FS and LC, he wants the FC to form and take over the IS, but in this scenario, those hosues would be more like the CC or a minor periphery realm, as they would not face the haphazard attacks, and a full on combined and coordinated attack from the three, and worse, no conflict between the CC and FWL. So even more of those nations forces pouring into the FS/LC borders. With the Periphery on the side of the RWR, there is no real way the FS/LC could survive this, as things like Defiance would fall to the others. There would be no way to reinforce it, as the first goal of the others would be cut off both realms from Terra and each other, while taking worlds around Defiance to remove any sort of help to prevent it from falling. And yet the same characters that are alive in the story in 3025 would still be born and have a chance to do anything.
Another example of the canon is wrong because the alt says it is. The 20 year update is wrong because I took out the CC in the 4th war, or finished it in the 3039 war. Given the DC/RWR/CC/FWL scenario, this wouldn't even be possible. This is just another in a long line of issues that continue and open up more logic issues in the 'perfect' game.
Yet another false statement given from the fact you don't know how the clans actually work. The clans can build up 20 more clans worth of men and machines, just as long as they are not added into the invasion forces without a new bid, or going to the bid before hand. You hate the fact that security things like PGCs are not part of the bid, and can be of ANY size. Forces positioned in the periphery outside of the 'invasion point' are also not part of the bid, and can be used to defend any sort of push towards the home worlds.
Now another big logic failure. There is no evidence in canon that the clans did some sort of build up of forces, yet the alt completely changes the fact that the clans were not even remotely successful in invading the IS, so their adding new units would not happen. And he doesn't see the failure here. Then again, without the truce battle, the invasion route would not have been found out from Trent, as his comstar contact was his bondsman taken during that conflict, would not have happened.
Wow. Now pirates have to buy the jumpships they have. No wonder his idea of how they work is screwed up. The only thing pirates would have to pay for is upkeep to jumpships as they would steal them. Which is why some groups do not have their own. Try explaining why you have a stolen jumpship in for repairs right after they had a run in with some defense forces in another system. And yet they can't be like anyone else and use a slew of ways to gain jump transport to another world. Pirates are black marketeers. They provide the items for sale. Hmmm... Wonder where they get their money to do things like purchase transport and such. Some are poor. That is not questioned. But classifying them as woodsman that sneak into the cities to steal some beer isn't true. The better ones are run like a merc unit. Not all are set up for just stealing what isn't nailed down, and bringing crowbars to take that as well. Some do it just to pay back the others for insults and bad treatment.
As you don't seem to really comprehend the entire concept of merchants using jumpships to keep worlds in supplies needed to survive, and that by doing as the FS did for the 4th war, and conscripting them, destroys the ability for any sort of supplies being moved, the idea of making a huge fleet of them is beyond stupid. It is the merchants that keep the IS going in necessary supplies, not the government and the military. The governement does HIRE those merchants to bring in supplies to some that are desperate, but you just seized all of them, and sent them out against the enemy. So your worlds will die, as they are moved, and for some, if not most facing an enemy that is known to destroy jumpships, they will not be returning. But some how, this does not register on why you can't do this. The misconcepts that the leader can just wipe out worlds in order to fulfill their whims doesn't work. This would be doing the enemy a favor, as they don't need supply line raiders in order to stop you from doing anything.
And yet another misconception shows up. The IS does not have enough ships to satisfy the merchants and the military. This is why having to conscript merchant ships for war is needed. There is some freelance merchants that ply something other then dedicated routes, but the military always has less then desired. If you had even used any sort of comprehension reading the books this would be glowing in bright lights with warning sirens going off. But then this requires having to read what is there, and not what you want to have there.
3025 the wiki and the book jumpships and dropships says 2-3k jumpships are average for the IS. It says that most jumpship production barely puts out more then is lost in each year. This was already shown in the past, which is why I question you bothering to read anything but what you want in the books.
As stated when discussing this, the number sounds more like each house, not the entire IS, as there could not be worlds that require dedicated runs with this low of a number. And it say that in the wiki that the number seems low.
Oh yeah. Only a fool would consider ships that pirates possess should be considered towards the numbers needed to run the nations needs. Much like suggesting the numbers the CC or DC have would cover the FS needs.
Again, the extremist views say ALL pirates are the same. Just like all people are the same. Some have the very things of machines on the verge of breaking down from a simple fist into the side, while others have machines in better shape then some house troops. So the answer is there is no standard set.
As said, those numbers change as well. Some pirate hunting expeditions remove some, while lack of pay or being stranded behind enemy lines being a main reason why more become pirates. Asteroid fields becomes a haven for pirates, and I have yet to see many systems that don't have some. So not all need to go out of system to do their raiding. And for show of the flag, that tends to be when nobles demand protection of an RCT where there is already a pair guarding their palace. And remember. These are the very units you are suggesting being stripped and sent out, as they aren't needed to protect worlds.
Another false statement. Even if you are on one edge of the jump area, and the ship jumps in on the other, the dropships the pirates are using will catch any ship that doesn't have an emergency charge, as even the slowest dropshisp can catch a jumpship using thrusters. Hell, most can travel from worlds in the system to the jump area and catch the jumpship. So your math major is failing here. Not many commercial jumpships got batteries for the second jump. And that is even AFTER they were reintroduced into the IS.
Hot charges requires more then a few minutes. Even a few days would give the pirates time to catch you.
Let's see. Surprise, coms black outs helped prevent the wave of units catching them, and there are a few real world examples of inept generals keeping rich countries from just rolling over their neighbors. History is has more then a few, otherwise, we would all be speaking one language. General Custer of the U.S remind you of something?
And normally it isn't so much the generals, but the actual leaders that cause the issue.
But this was done BEFORE the clans arrived. But this was discussed a while back. Each house had some flaws and some strong points. It was balanced somewhat to keep the game from being a cakewalk for any one house.
I am wondering if you call every game bs as they all have the same sort of concept going. Even your loved gundam wing has this issue. Otherwise, why would the gundams be needed?
The clans better weapons and warriors are balanced by the lack of fast numbers of replacement warriors, as well as distance to their supplies, and the entire way they are used to fighting. But only the numbers count in your mind. The CC was the weakest in military. Yet some how they had other things to keep them from being steamrollered. Oh yeah. In order to attack them, their neighbors had to remove forces protecting other areas of their nations opening that up to attacks from other enemies. This is the Piranha effect you say doesn't exist.
This is a war game. Fair is not part of wars going on.
The moment you fire on the other persons assigned targets, you start the grand melee effect. Marthe removed Aidan from becoming a warrior because it allowed her to shoot him. Clan warriors do not take to having you steal their kills at all. You could well become a star colonel, only to be killed by the person you took their kills from. Had Phelan not agreed to let Natasha take some of his, he would have died, and she would not have been a star colonel on her return.
Active line combat pilots are different, then just having old pilots in an army. Most of the older ones are colonels and training pilots. This is done not because of degregation of body, but the fact that once you get to a certain rank, you tend to be removed from the combat roster. There are some that are that good that then can still fight better then those 30 or so years younger then they are. Reactions are only part of it. Knowing the tricks and where the opponent can go makes up a large portion of combat experience. You know how to target them without needing to do a 9 g turn.
Never in history has their been a military that was light years separated from others, which were genetically grown in basically test tubes, and put under such harsh conditions to learn how to fight. So no. Never has there been anything like the clans.
So they all used the same route in the middle, which means they could raid each others supplies without really needing to do anything but sit there? Why does this sound like a bunch of bs?
Really? The Dragoons would have to have given them the location of the home worlds, as Comstar was searching the deep periphery for any signs of the SLDF? And that during exploration making a grid where multiple ships do not continue to go over areas another ship has gone would not be implemented?
Now the really questionable part of the Dragoon statement. Why would you be SEARCHING for the home worlds if you had a map showing where they were. Huntress was not built in the time the Dragoons were away from the home worlds. Good logic uses here.
Freedom of thought? The alt is nothing more then a way to say canon is wrong. The presentation of how it is done is the whole issue with the alt. Canon is wrong because the alt says it is. That is the message from day one. It hasn't changed. You want to show an alternative, remove phrases like only viable solutions and there is no way they could have done this or that. It is presented in the way to say canon developers have no right to even suggest their game go this way. So the motto of the alt is that the freedom of the developers to say this is what happened in their game is being told it is wrong. Not getting the irony of this?
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Wick
09/13/20 02:55 AM
173.247.25.195
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Did you ever consider that I realized this from the get go ….. why don’t you read the forum page entitled – Issues with regards to the Kerensky-Amaris Civil War.
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1 Armored Division Remained
32 BattleMech Divisions Remained
76 Infantry Divisions Remained
63 Independent Regiments Remained
Total 172 Regiments remained …..
This is my point. You've based your entire assessment on this error.
Each division is nine regiments, not one. Three brigades of three regiments each. 1 x 9 + 32 x 9 + 76 x 9 + 63 = 1044 regiments
And if you mean Battlemech regiments only, then Star League page 133 specifically states that there's a Battlemech brigade in each of the infantry divisions (so 3 regiments per Infantry division) and two brigades in the Battlemech divisions (6 regiments per Battlemech division). 32 x 6 + 76 + 3 = 420 mech regiments, not even counting the armored division or independents.
So when I said
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SLDF alone is approximately 480 regiments of mechs, based on what was left in 2785 at time of Exodus
I was in the ballpark, assuming the majority of the independents are Battlemech. You were way short because you did the math wrong.
Still, even with 420, they dwarf any House army. You said so yourself (and I agree with at least the House numbers) you provided:
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House Army BattleMech Units as at 2765
RWR ………………….144 Regiments in the TH – considered to be half of their total forces
AFFS………………….110 Regiments.
DCMS………………….115 Regiments
FWLM…………………95 Regiments
CCAF………………….92 Regiments
LCAF…………………. 90 Regiments Total House Numbers is at 502 Regiments (Compared to the SLDF’s 1,708 Regiments at the beginning of the war and the 215 Regiments at its end)
The logic says you can't decrease the SLDF from 1708 to 420-480 fighting nobody - they got reduced this far because they had to fight the TDF, MAF, AMC, and RWA. So you can't give the RWR either 144 or 288 regiments in 2785 and also take away the 1200+ from the SLDF. Either they both have what they had before the war, or they both don't.
If the SLDF is 1708 mech regiments in in 2765, then DCMS and all four periphery states combined only add up to the low 700s. If the SLDF is 420-480 in 2785, then DCMS and the remaining three periphery states combine to only about 168. In either case, the SLDF dwarfs the DCMS and periphery alliance.
So don't be an **** and tell other people that they are wrong and need to use Excel spreadsheets, or say that the original author group got it wrong, when you make such a foolish error in your own arithmetic. Shame on you for not double checking your work before proclaiming yourself as smarter than everyone else.
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This is why you have a 100 year war!
I'm not even going to debate having a 100 year war when the canon framework gives them less than 30.
As I said, the AFFC, DCMS, and RKA lost 110 regiments in two years of fighting. Thus, they have to build 55 regiments a year to maintain parity. If you want to claim this as possible, I don't have any way to thoroughly disprove it. But the Inner Sphere NEVER had this production capacity in the past - not during the Reunification War, not during the Amaris Civil War, and not during the First Succession War. If they had the capability to ramp up to 55 regiments a year, why didn't they during these three major crises? You can make excuses that the Inner Sphere will gain technical equivalency (which they still hadn't done 100 years later in canon) or be able to assassinate huge numbers of the Clan pilots without the Clans developing a counterstrategy, but these are huge assumptions. I'm basing my position only on the canon history, not Rosie the Riveter, superhuman assassins, and what-ifs.
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And I've no idea how IS soldiers would be able to kill any pilots of the home clans with snipers and IEDs. They can't get their soldiers within 1000 light years of homeworld Clanners in the 3050s, let alone close enough to pick them off with a rifle or plant a bomb. Yet, they find a way to do just that so the Clan pilot count can be reduced by something like half (i.e., tens of thousands of assassinations) just to make Mr Requiem right. Truly astounding powers these Spheroids in your home campaigns must have.
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Levity and sophistry and opinions based upon ……?
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What happens when they do conquer a world with a population of 5 Billion – they know they cannot affect the population so what do they do – remain penned up in their garrison whist the surrounding civilians pick them off with sniper rifles and IEDs.
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problem is if the IS can kill off the Clans Pilots faster than their sibkos can graduate them the Clans are going to find themselves with a stockpile of mechs with no one to pilot them!
Your opinion apparently. You proposed assassinations as the way to reduce the Clan pilot population enough so that the IS doesn't have to build 55 regiments a year to maintain attrition. Yet you provided absolutely no insight as to how IS soldiers assassinate pilots on the Clan homeworlds (let alone berthed in their dropships or transport vessels and safely out of reach.) Thus, they must have some kind of superpowers to assassinate at will across thousands of light years distance. Its not sophistry to say this is absolutely impossible for mere mortals.
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Can someone please make up their mind – does the IS either have an adequate supply of Jumpships to allow all the menial things get done + all the military – or is the an absence of them making them rare thus restricting the IS’s movement of people and military at any one point in time …. As there is no information on the subject as to the number of ships available who is right? …..
There are obviously enough to do commerce and move military assets around in normal situations or else the nations would collapse into independent planets. But if a significant portion of jumpships are pulled off their trade routes, then commerce suffers. Federated Suns saw this happen when many commercial jumpships were requisitioned by the military during the Fourth Succession War.
If 3000 total jumpships is the right number, and Mercenary's Handbook says 46% of total and 51% of military are Invaders as of 3055, that puts the number of military-owned ships at 2705 and non-military at just 295.
But people have done analysis on this (I remember an old post at BT forum) and indicated this isn't anywhere close enough to even feed certain worlds, let alone do meaningful commerce. Even if the military-owned jumpships serviced commercial traffic when not needed for military assets (most units stay on station for many months or even years during peacetime, so perhaps 2-3% of jumpship traffic is for military purposes), it may still not be enough. It would indicate exceptional rarity outside of the Houses and major Periphery realms though and so you may have a case here for rarity. (See, I can throw you a bone when the canon data actually supports your case.) But it also makes the existence of small periphery realms or independent plants like Astrokazy and Randis very hard to explain. There has to be enough traffic to justify not just their existence, but relative success. With only 295 available, the vast majority operating in House space and most of the remainder operating in the major Periphery realms, they've left only maybe 10 to service the entire remainder of the Periphery. Stories about trading missions, convoys, and societies like the Jarnfolk make such a low number contradictory.
Even the Sarna article ( https://www.sarna.net/wiki/JumpShip#Manufacturing ) has a note on how the number is inadequately too low. So no ones going to be able to give you a straight answer without it being contradicted by another source, and the line developers have never really answered it clearly. This is rightfully one of the things for which you can accuse the authors and developers of wrecklessness.
So given that there's no certain way to answer the rarity question, I'm going to back out of this part of the argument. I'm not conceding that you are correct and I still personally believe that part of the job of garrison troops is to defend against pirates. But If you want to argue that most garrison troops are only for show, not to fight pirates, and could be reassigned to front-line, then its hard to dispute that at least Mercenary Handbook gives you some right to do so with minimal consequences. Its thin ice, however.
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Only on well established routes – and then there is the pesky problem of where they jumped into the jump point as they could be 100 km away or 10,000 Km away from you when they arrive – as we must remember that space is a vast area – thus turning your idea of waiting for a jump-ship to come along into a crap shoot as to how far away it is and the time it would take to get out to it as well as how good (range) their radar is thus turning your surprise raid into a hot charge of the engine to jump out and escape your pirate group as they do not have surprise and location on their side.
Thus turning your possibility of pirates hitching a ride / capturing a ride into a massive crap game due to the tyranny of distance once more! (ie plausible story into an implausible story – roll a D10,000 and chose 1 number to see how far away they are.
If it takes roughly 190 hours at minimum between jumps, a distance of 10000 km is only averaging 53 kilometers per hour. Yawn. Dropships are well known to go exceptionally faster than this. That jumpship could appear millions of kilometers away and the pirates have still got plenty of time.
In fact, if a habitable world like Terra is available as a base, at around a similar 9.12 days transit time to a jump point, they could push their engines at a little more than 1G and still intercept it before it escaped, regardless of whether the jumpship had popped in at zenith or nadir. Its not like the pirates have to sit around and wait or roll the dice on which jump point it would appear at. Typical pirate group could be doing whatever they do most days, get notice from deep space radar that a large EM pulse was detected at either jump point, then hop in their dropship, push to 1.25G and rendezvous with it before it jumped away. Just about 100% of the time the rendezvous could be made. If you want to play craps with these odds, I'm game.
Now if you want to bicker over the success rate of hijacks, that's certainly less than 100%. But not rendezvous - that's the easy part.
And the hot-charging bit to get away wouldn't work. It takes 2-3 hours to roll up the jump sail and if the pirate dropship runs radio-silent, the jumpship won't see them coming until about the last hour, when the fusion engines become bright enough to be detectable in infrared (and later visually) over the background starfield. You can hot-charge to get away if you know danger is coming in an day or two, but an hour or two just isn't enough time to prepare an emergency jump. Unless you want to abandon your jump sail and be stranded in the next system.
Edited by Wick (09/13/20 02:59 AM)
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Requiem
09/13/20 05:20 AM
1.158.133.26
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You have finally proven what I have long surmised, rather than considering a point of view – make something up, attack the author or just rant and rave about how you are destroying the game by attacking the TPTB ….
the logic failure comes from not wanting the SL to fall to Amaris …. the idea that Kerensky must die …. – Clearly your opinions Ghostrider as they are ot mine, as I have never posted my story on this subject ….
Failure on a grand scale with this one. – your opinion again?
And the next - your opinion as I have never stated how far the changes have been made.
Another example of the canon is wrong because the alt says it is. – unwillingness to even investigate?
Yet another false statement given from the fact you don't know how the clans actually work.- attack me rater than the subject even after this has been discussed and re-discussed how many times now based upon the interpretation of what was written and no clear explanation as to the meaning behind it?
Wow. Now pirates have to buy the jumpships they have. – Comprehension of what was written is taken out f context so as to discredit what is attempted to be discussed.
As you don't seem to really comprehend the entire concept of merchants using jumpships to keep worlds in supplies needed to survive, and that by doing as the FS did for the 4th war, and conscripting them, destroys the ability for any sort of supplies being moved, - unwillingness to even comprehend the legitimacy that if it occurred in the past that it can be used in the future to same or if not greater effect …..
And yet another misconception shows up. The IS does not have enough ships to satisfy the merchants and the military. – please read what wick wrote below on this …
But then this requires having to read what is there, and not what you want to have there.
Oh yeah. Only a fool would consider ships that pirates possess should be considered towards the numbers needed to run the nations needs.
These are the very units you are suggesting being stripped and sent out, as they aren't needed to protect worlds.
Another false statement.
And normally it isn't so much the generals, but the actual leaders that cause the issue.
The clans better weapons and warriors are balanced by the lack of fast numbers of replacement warriors, as well as distance to their supplies, and the entire way they are used to fighting. But only the numbers count in your mind. – and yet there is no evidence of tis within the invasion so where is the balance now?
In order to attack them, their neighbors had to remove forces protecting other areas of their nations opening that up to attacks from other enemies. – unwillingness to even listen to my response no matter how mant times I attempted
The moment you fire on the other persons assigned targets, you start the grand melee effect. – Comprehension of what was written --- fire head shot mech down -- next one enters second duel starts and also ends with a head shot - thid one enters and it too ends with a head shot …. No grand melee …. Just a normal Trial of position …..
Statistically speaking it is possible, though unlikely ….
Most of the older ones are colonels – unwilling to understand or concede a point that is obvious – the clans are youth orientated with the degradation of the human body due to age would any young Clansman sit by and allow an older warrior to maintain a senior post or a blood name when they can just kill him in a circle of equals and take it ? …… remember these are Mongols we are discussing. (seen any 80 year old fighter pilots yet?)
which means they could raid each others supplies without really needing to do anything but sit there – safecon until they arrive in the IS did you ever consider this?
Really? The Dragoons would have to have given them the location of the home worlds, as Comstar was searching the deep periphery for any signs of the SLDF? – again did you even bother to comprehend what was written before jumping into a tangent
Freedom of thought? The alt is nothing more then a way to say canon is wrong. – unwillingness to listen to what another has to say ….
Yes I will concede I made an error mathematically … going too fast can cause problems – but wick when you point out errors in such a way be careful for the day to come when others will point out yours – for there are many ….. even in this post ….
Either they both have what they had before the war, or they both don't. – or you totally rewrite everything ….
I'm not even going to debate having a 100 year war when the canon framework gives them less than 30. - as stated how many times and how many forums this is Alt history not a homage to all things Canon.
Yet you provided absolutely no insight as to how IS soldiers assassinate pilots on the Clan homeworlds – because there is a 100 year war raging throughout the deep periphery, thus during the intial invasion how can they as it is clearly stated they never make de it to the Clan Home Worlds – as this is an Alt Universe …..
But If you want to argue that most garrison troops are only for show, not to fight pirates, and could be reassigned to front-line - Politics.
then its hard to dispute that at least Mercenary Handbook gives you some right to do so with minimal consequences. Its thin ice, however. – gee thanks!
If it takes roughly 190 hours at minimum between jumps, a distance of 10000 km is only averaging 53 kilometers per hour.- pardon?
That jumpship could appear millions of kilometers away and the pirates have still got plenty of time. - problem is you have to find it with the liited radar available – that said what is the radar range on a commercial Jumpship and even at full velocity how long will it take for a dropship to arrive even if it could find a needle in a haystack when said haystack is 10,000 KM wide and they could be moving under their own thrust ….. and not sitting idly by so can you explain how pirates have a radar that has a range of 10,000 Km so that they can go straight for the prize from whence they began?
Still how does a hijack occur if Jump-ships’ Captain Knows that he is entering a known pirate area and begins hot-charging from the get go or has a battery that enables two jumps?
And what happens if this Jumpship is carrying a military unit and they decide to send out the fighters?
So again there are multiple reasons why this does not work …..
What this proves to me is an unwillingness to consider another point of view even when it is clearly stated that this is an alt forum …. I went into the local game store and have found a new game, you have proven to me that Battletech will never be what it was ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/13/20 01:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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The IS not having clan tech is a sore point for me. The excuse given to why they don't is poor at best. I have said it before that some tech would have been absolutely done, even if all of it wasn't. The half weight launchers, double sinks, and probably the Endosteel/Ferrous armor being some of the main ones that would have been made. The xl engines would probably be yet another. I believe since tanks don't build heat with the launchers, the developers had to leave that out, as it would absolutely destroy the mechs king of the battlefield position. Imagine an SRM carrier with twice the launchers.
The cost of it is NOT holding up, especially with more pricier equipment that was made, such as the xxxl engine.
He believes that the Clans will not just start wiping out populations as assassins start taking a toll on their troops. And that everyone has some sort of heavy weapons system tucked under their pillows. Where assassins being snuck onto a world a few times would have some advantages, once it happened a few times, the clans would stop all travel between worlds, and make sure ALL personnel that had to, was watched closely. Any sort of sign of a weapon would result in their deaths as well as anyone else that was part of the ships compliment.
And yet he wants to ban all bombardments, which was the end result of Turtle Bay becoming so unruly. Logic fail.
make something up, attack the author or just rant and rave. This part of the sentence is what you have done with the entire alt thread. Still not getting the fact that when you say canon can't possibly be right, and push the alt as the only way it could be, is why the entire alt concept has been said to be nothing more then a developer thrashfest.
the logic failure comes from not wanting the SL to fall to Amaris …. the idea that Kerensky must die ….
Never posted this? The whole idea of the DC with the periphery attacking the SL suggests that the SL will fall to Amaris and the others, as well as Kerensky must stay and fight suggests he must die. Simple logic seems to fail in the comprehensive reading, or maybe you don't really read anything that is printed, including your own posts. Somehow the major conspiracies and such are said to be within the lines of the canon print, like the Political century being about social generals in the clans, yet nothing is even close to that 'fact'. Then suggesting that the alt does not have the flaws of canon, yet does not completely move away from canon is another flaw in itself.
I disagree with the way the alt is presented, as it suggests nothing more then canon is wrong and the alt proves it. There are more then a few valid questions on what happened, but it isn't presented like that.
And the next - your opinion as I have never stated how far the changes have been made.
You have indeed stated how far things changed, and still the events of the future didn't. The entire fact the clans could not have come into existence, but yet continue to suggest canon is wrong, is yet another logic failure. Yet again. You seem to think this is not the case.
Yet another false statement given from the fact you don't know how the clans actually work.- attack me rater than the subject even after this has been discussed and re-discussed how many times now based upon the interpretation of what was written and no clear explanation as to the meaning behind it?
One of the first statements made by you, was you didn't understand the clans. Then when using the canon print, you said it wasn't possible and only the alt was. Again, had you not added in things like can't possibly be the way it is, makes the whole thread about the alt showing canon is wrong. Canon can not be wrong for the game presented by the developers of that game. Lots of issues with consistency, for sure.
Besides renting and stealing jumpships, what other option is there to use one? Saying the pirates can't rent them, and stealing them doesn't work for long, there is another option besides buy them?
So not learning that you would destroy your economy, which is needed to keep funding your military to remove an enemy, means you would destroy it on a more permanent scale. And with this, make it that much easier for your enemies to move in and take it all. And with all the jumpships being in the clans area, there would be no way to even attempt to deal with the enemy incursions on other borders or even deep in your nation.
Pirates will explode when there is no way to really stop them from stealing things. Once you remove the law in the area, anarchy will reign, even if the other nations don't move in. But then the piranha effect doesn't exist, so this can't possibly happen. Still not seeing the logic here?
The entire game of the IS and periphery has a shortage of ships to keep all moving. The idea of pushing jumps is why there is a problem with maintainance. Instead of taking their time to do things like deploy and retract the sails, they push to get it done, so they can try to make an extra jump a year to try and satisfy the needs to get things moved. If there were the correct amount of jumpships, then no world would have to worry about getting the supplies needed. The entire ban on destroying them would never have had to be agreed upon, nor kept in force.
Something that might really show up, had you even attempted to do the Defiance equipment concept, as to prove you had done more then just put in numbers so suggest this is wrong. But then having numbers down would allow others to do as you do. Say they are wrong, and only their numbers are correct. For canon, this is very much true. The developers numbers are correct.
You have said multiple times that all forces should be in one location. How can you possibly defend all your lands when everything is in the on location? You need time to get anywhere, and to even suggest the local defense forces would slow them down negates having all your forces in one location. But some how this logic fail isn't registering.
This is a failure of the writer, not what is written. Yet the entire alt is completely fixing all issues with canon.
And once you take down something after the third target assigned to you, you start the melee. And that will mean the other warrior looking for a position will be allowed to take you down. Even the simple first shot on the others targets frees up the rest to hunt you together. And head shot scenario is possible, but that is the rare exception. You are suggesting all the warriors can just shoot more then their 3 targets. Most can't even take out one, much less 3. Going for more is even less likely.
You do know that safecon is not guaranteed? And that a clan looking to resupply before they get slammed would not allow it? The books say they made their own routes to avoid such an issue. But again, anything in the books is absolutely wrong in your mind as it was made by the developers. The entire pattern has show this. And given the Mongol way, you should protect your supplies as it is a sign of weakness to rely on the charity of others not to follow their nature and just take it. So do the clans follow their Mongol ways, and just take what they want? Or ignore the enemy gaining what is needed to continue the fight, while your forces flounder?
Did you really suggest someone watch out how quick they are to point out another mistakes? The alt is based on you doing this to the developers, and then saying the same thing when proof is presented that you don't like. Most of the argument is a rehash of things in the past, and the statement of everything but the alt being wrong. NO one knows anything about anything but you has come up a few times. Military would never/always would do this or that. Philosophy, human nature, distance issues, resources and all that have been said that only what you think is correct. Nothing else is possible.
Interesting. So far, the alt threads have been canon is wrong, and only the alt is right. Trying to hide behind the title and say this is about presenting an alternative way, but nothing happens but canon is wrong comes from it. A duck is a duck comes to mind...
Sending out fighters is only possible if you have some with you. So circumstantial. But the use of fighters and shuttles works both ways. Simply having some set out in a pattern around the jump point, and even a semi schedule would have the pirates knowing approximately when you come in, would shut down the argument of now knowing where in the area a jumpship comes in. And batteries? Most commercial jumpships do not have them. It is an added cost most can NOT afford. Maybe something owned by Defiance or another large corporation, but for most backwater or periphery worlds, they would not be there.
You found a new game and battletech will never be as it one was, but you continue to say it was wrong all together, and tried to push everyone into trying to say canon is wrong and only your vision is right?
And that statement is a lie anyways. You had Robotech, Warhammer and others. You were trying to suggest the game be more like them, but one of them sued the developers. Where is the logic in this? The perfect logic that only you have been able to come up with?
So before trying to say you are presenting an alt, learn how to present it properly. Starting off with canon is wrong is not how to start.
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Wick
09/14/20 08:30 PM
173.247.25.195
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Yes I will concede I made an error mathematically … going too fast can cause problems – but wick when you point out errors in such a way be careful for the day to come when others will point out yours – for there are many ….. even in this post ….
But I'm not repeatedly insulting others for my mistakes by using snooty comments like 'try again', 'next time do x' and childish phrases like that.
And I'm man enough to accept when I've made a mistake. You continued to dispute yours several times until I had to provide your own quote against you. I didn't need to 'try again' or do anything different 'next time' because I did it right the first time, and you were too stuck up to take your advice to double check your work.
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or you totally rewrite everything ….
And abandon your case for a more reasonable history than what was presented? Like I said, 1700 mech regiments just doesn't disappear without a fight.
Unless the DCMS and Amaris supporters can suddenly eliminate off the SLDF's numerical superiority without any losses of thier own. Since this is the same argument you're making with the Clans, I guess there's no changing your mind on it. But you won't change my mind into beleiving things like magic and superhuman abilities exist in your alt universe to explain rebalancing military power.
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Still how does a hijack occur if Jump-ships’ Captain Knows that he is entering a known pirate area and begins hot-charging from the get go or has a battery that enables two jumps?
Becuase rules indicate that hot-charging is dangerous and costly. (Aerotech 2, p58-59) You can do serious, sometimes irreparable damage the KF drive by hot-charging so it should be done as a last resort, not common practice. If a jumpship did this is in every system it would break down very quickly, needing repair more often or potentially destroyed. Even if you are successfully hot-charging every jump, you're burning drive fuel to do it instead of the free solar power so the jumpship operator's profit margin sinks. It's just not cost-effective to do this on a routine basis.
And it still presents the problem of pirates taking a gamble on which jump point to use and laying in wait until an expected jumpship appears. A jumpship requires a minimum of 16 hours to do an extremely risky hot-charge. In that time, a dropship starting from 0g, burning to 1g, flip over, and reducing to 0g for intercept can travel over 16 million kilometers (over 422 times Earth-Moon distance or .108 of an AU) via physics algorithm d=½at² (0.5 * 9.8m/s² * 57600s * 57600s.) Ten thousand kilometers is nothing. A single dropship anywhere within a tenth of an AU of either jump point makes this a 50% chance of intercept; a dropship at both zenith and nadir makes it virtually assured. The argument that pirate dropships have no chance at all of catching a charging jumpship just isn't reasonable.
Now, an LF battery to jump immediately immediately, sure they couldn't catch one of those. But jumpships with LF batteries are very rare to begin with, even more so after the First Succession War. Sarna's article states "Only very few regular JumpShips, none of them a civilian-owned ship, are known to carry the expensive system" - there's no reference for this particular bit of information, but if its true, then you can't rely on any of those 295 civilian owned jumpships to have one. The few jumpships that have one would almost certainly all be concentrated in the House armies and used as high value messengers between command and front-line, not merchant transport in the Periphery. Could be some if the number of civilian craft is significantly more than 295, but this hurts your argument because it gives pirates more opportunity to attack those that don't.
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If it takes roughly 190 hours at minimum between jumps, a distance of 10000 km is only averaging 53 kilometers per hour.- pardon?
Using same d=½at². 10000km can be crossed in just 1428 seconds (sqrt(1000000m * 2 / 9.8m/ss)), or just shy of 24 minutes, assuming starting and ending at 0g with 1g burn. Since flip-over takes a few minutes at least, lets say its somewhere between half hour and full hour. This is still way less than 190 hours. (Or the 16 for hot-charge if you prefer.)
And we can get the velocity at flip-over via v=at to be 6997m/s (9.8m/ss * 714s), which is 25,189 kph. 53 kph is nothing to a dropship.
Now, these algorithms are a little simplified because they don't take drag into consideration (which is almost negligible in space), the effect of the sun or planet's gravity at an angle to the flight path, or how long it takes to perform maneuvers like flip over or docking, but they give a ballpark to suggest the dropship can traverse such vast distances in the time it takes for a jumpship to recharge that escape is nearly impossible.
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problem is you have to find it with the liited radar available
Don't need radar to find general position. The emergence signature produces an EM pulse powerful enough to be detected billions of kilometers away, and infrared signature within 50,000. So pirate dropship can head to that location.
And to find the exact position, Strategic Operations, p119, under Radar heading answers this: "Any Large Craft with a functioning sensor system (one not destroyed through critical damage) may attempt a Detection Check against objects within 100,000 km... When making a Detection Check, apply a modifier equal to the range/10,000 (for Large Craft)" Since 10,000 km is well within 100,000, and this only gives a +1 modifier to a detection check roll, the jumpship is almost certainly going to be found.
So why do you say things like "limited radar" when the rules have spelled out the radar systems are more than sufficient?
And before you say something silly like how the jumpship could burn away from the emergence point as soon as they arrive in system, their max thrust is only .1g. To travel 100,000 km away requires about 2 hours, 49 minutes of burn time. In the same amount of time, the dropship burning at 1g can travel five times that distance (ten times the acceleration, but needing to flip over half way.) Adding the radar range, that means the pirates could conceivably intercept the jumpship from a distance up to 600,000 km, and almost certainly within 500,000. So this method of evasion could work pretty well for planet-bound pirates, but not those laying in wait near the jump point.
It also assumes the jumpship crew believes themselves to be under credible attack upon arrival. While the dropship knows roughly where the jumpship is from the emergence signature, same is not true of the jumpship knowing a dropship is inbound. 100,000 km distance from an inbound ship decelerating at 1g gives them only about 53 minutes notice, less if the pirates are doing a more sudden deceleration. This is less than a third of the time needed to burn out of the pirate's radar range.
This also burns about 1/4 day of transit fuel (almost 3 hours acceleration and 3 hours deceleration). For an Invader that's about 4.9 tons of fuel, and they only carry 50 tons. Using a tenth of your expensive fuel on the 'maybe' of being attacked is not very cost effective.
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And what happens if this Jumpship is carrying a military unit and they decide to send out the fighters?
This is a risk the pirates take. Not going to be much military traffic in the Periphery as within House or major Periphery realm space, but its a possibility. Even without military protection, the jumpship or its dropships could (and would) launch fighters. The pirates have to have some faith that their dropship (and its fighters, if it has any) could disable or destroy any defending fighters. I never said the hijack was a sure thing - only that rendezvous is high probability.
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He believes that the Clans will not just start wiping out populations as assassins start taking a toll on their troops. And that everyone has some sort of heavy weapons system tucked under their pillows. Where assassins being snuck onto a world a few times would have some advantages, once it happened a few times, the clans would ...
... simply stop putting their pilots in situations that allow them to be assassinated. Like I said, they can berth inside the dropship in orbit, and no sniper rifle is reaching that far.
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... stop all travel between worlds, and make sure ALL personnel that had to, was watched closely. Any sort of sign of a weapon would result in their deaths as well as anyone else that was part of the ships compliment.
Ghostrider, you have a point here, but this method still takes manpower to perform searches and monitoring. I say just put the pilots out of range and the assassinations become impossible. Its a simpler solution and asks nothing of the Clans that they don't already have. I guess it could lock up dropships that would otherwise leave the system, but then we're back to the same "if IS can build thousands of ships, why can't the Clans build hundreds?" (Assuming they didn't just reactivate Star League era dropships from their naval caches and solve their protection problem far faster than the IS solves its ramp up problem.)
I think we're both in agreement that assassinations could be used on small scale - maybe to take out a Star Colonel which ends up making the difference in a key battle. But it couldn't be used all the time without the Clans countering it. To stop the Clan advance once Truce of Tukayyid expires, you'd need thousands and thousands of assassinations to weaken the Clan war machine enough to draw parity with the IS defenders. A handful? Yes. Thousands and thousands? No.
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ghostrider
09/14/20 09:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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There is other factors that go into hotloading a jumpdrive. Namely, why you are in the system to begin with. If you are there to drop off and pick up ships, then you are either stuck waiting for the pick up, or jump out leaving it stranded. That will get you blacklisted if you leave a few ships. No data showing you needed to jump would really get you screwed.
Oh yeah. How do you know the pirates haven't made it into a new system in order to hijack a ship. The smart ones would well hire a legit jump into a new system, just to prevent others from saying we are in the Luthien system, so we need to watch for pirates. But the Capellan system is fine.
Well the idea of having an battery does not mean you are safe either. It is very possible you used the charge to jump from another dangerous system. So the chance of having a charge needs to be figured in as well.
Rewriting everything is fine, but not saying the new storyline is the ultimate, and canon is wrong because the new story says so. Present a read alternative, not something that you continually use to bash the developers. Again. The numbers the developers used were not the same ones you did. They built their story and game a certain way. It can not be wrong in premise. There are flaws, and inconsistencies in it, no doubt.
The one issue with having their pilots in orbit is the fact they do need some show of force on the ground in order to remind people who is in charge. Given the fact that someone is sniping people would have elementals brought in to find this person, and that may well be an entire cluster of them.
The example of taking out a star colonel in a battle works, but there is a good chance you will make matters worse. Someone will take over, and they may well be worse then the colonel you took out when it comes to dealing with the locals. One shot may well be the only one you get without the clans knowing where you are. And as sniper shots are not guaranteed in the game, you may well just miss and have the civilians in the area pay for it, wiether successful or not Something that is missing form the wholesale sniping clansmen seems to be missing. This happened in one of the stories, that had the clans looking for a bomber.
Also, this relies on clan pilots actually needing a lot of time outside of their units in an unsecured location. Clan tech, like sensors, are much better then the IS has. They are more likely to spot your attempts before or sooner then you expect them. Elemental and even solhema units can change that figure as well. Not saying it would be done for a few times, but it would be done sooner or later.
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Wick
09/15/20 09:52 PM
173.247.25.195
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Why couldn't dropship land, mechs and elementals disembark, wave the flag for a few hours, then get back on board and head back to orbit? It makes the same show of force as a typical garrison formation that bunks on the surface, but without ever exposing the pilots to snipers.
Or just strafe targets with some aerospace fighters without ever landing the dropship?
I know SAMs could present a problem for fighters, but so could vibrobombs for a mech or elemental detachment. They're never going to be completely safe from danger, but the point is that they can pretty much eliminate sniper activity if it was a concern.
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ghostrider
09/15/20 10:30 PM
66.74.60.165
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They could stay in orbit and land only once in a while. This does have a tendency of making those doing so look scared and weak. It also does little to slow down any sort of raids, as there is no forces guarding anything, which is a point I tried to make to someone thinking every single soldier on a world could sit inside a mega fortress.
I do know this doesn't stop, and sometimes even forces at a site don't really slow things down, but it does keep the weekend warriors from trying something stupid, like taking out a dam or some such thing. Simply preventing the drag racing from the top of it, might prevent issues.
Another issue that comes about is the timing. If you get a routine going, this is a little more dangerous then having them down all the time.
Done right, you would never really run into this issue, but done right, and keeping the routine times isn't always easy to do.
Since they nerfed strafes from the original games, which they went to far in my opinion, it begs to ask, is it worth a fighter or two for a strafe to happen. A single hit and a bad roll could very well cause the fighter to become an oversized missile, destroying something it was meant to protect. Low altitude control failures tend to cause crashes. Not to mention what happens to a dropship that loses control.
Yes, this is a bit extreme, but has happened in games I have been in. This is why the super MG carrying mech is so dangerous. The mgs don't do a whole lot of damage, but just one thru armor crit can destroy a mech. 4 to 6 head hits can take out a mech as well, even if the damage doesn't go thru, as this is supposed to knock out the pilot to possibly kill them. The LBX canons became a long range issue.
Though to be honest, I don't know if a vibrobombs rule will allow an elemental suit to set one off. Command control ones are done by someone watching, so isn't an issue.
The big thing is, sniping might work great for a couple of times, but that depends on if the commander of the occupying forces isn't going to start wiping out innocent people just to show anyone who does it, will get their own killed.
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westjensontexas
10/12/20 10:57 AM
49.14.120.151
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It would make sense that destroying things and not removing the debris that would materialize in the ship would be in order, though this counters the whole issue of Kerensky leaving crap in the jump points behind them to discourage pursuit or even following the SLDF at a later time, as Comstar was doing.
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ghostrider
10/12/20 11:44 AM
66.74.60.165
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That is a problem with retconning things into the game without looking to see what was printed. It is possible that the developers just decided to change the concept. They did that with a few things, with some going to the extreme in the other direction.
This also changes the idea of how a jump works as well.
My thought was it just moved the ship from one location to another, all at once. This seems to send it in small pieces, and creates a shock wave. The energy put out by the jump has been there, but it was implied it was only during the jump from, not to, a system. With this, I always thought it was like phasing in, not just a fast movement. So anything in your way became part of what ever was at that point at that time. The idea is that you could jump and have a piece of metal become surrounded by your body. I can see, this is not the case.
And it is very stupid to have left garbage at a jump point to discourage pursuit. Part of a discussion about continuity in the game's history.
But this is a problem in itself. The jump points are so large, just how many garbage could have been dumped to cover it? The fleet did not really have the resources, unless they grabbed things from the systems and set it there. Which causes another issue, as you would have to put the garbage in perfect stationary position, as this is set over 100 years in the future. Even a simple foot movement an hour would send the debris out of position in less then 50 years.
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Requiem
02/02/21 05:11 PM
1.158.229.22
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Issue for Consideration: Warship Fuel
In order to travel the exodus road as well operating within the Inner Sphere the need for Warship Fuel must be considered.
(Note these same questions should be asked when considering the first exodus!!!!)
What is the exact nature of the fuel they require?
Is it the same as BattleMech? Is it the same as a Jumpship? Is the Inner Sphere Jumpship fuel even compatible given their reduced technology circa 3050?
Considering the size of their fuel requirements where are the tankers required within the invasion?
Also if specialist fuel is required then there must be a ship that manufactures fuel – correct?
So why was this ship(s) not hunted down and destroyed – thus reducing the range / military capability of their warship / jump fleets? (ie. providing the Inner Sphere with time to respond to the Clan Invasion)
Was this even considered within the game?
Can we say this is another Opps moment by the writers?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/02/21 06:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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Under the Mammoth in the jumpships and dropships book from old, they do say a few of them were set up for being fuel tankers.
I don't know if they changed the implication, but it sounds like the fuel the warships used, is the same fuel all other star craft use.
I do think that a majority of the game seems to ignore the fact that fuel for starships could very well be the weak point of any invasion. Remove the fuel carriers and make sure there is none that they can get locally, and eventually, they can not bring in more troops. Granted, it does seem to be more important to take out combat ships.
Also, the lack of fuel tends to hurt the defenders as well, which may well be another tactic that invaders should be looking at, but don't.
Imaging how much easier it would be to take a planet if you remove the fuel for all air and space craft in one swoop.
One thing to remember for this topic. The original game did not include warships as a combatant in the 'current' age, which was 3025 era.
But it is a bit funny that ship fuel is abundant.
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Wick
02/02/21 07:42 PM
173.247.25.195
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I'm not sure about warship engines, but dropship engines, which are likely similar but smaller, are explicitly defined as fusion engines, which implies the fuel is some from of liquid hydrogen. Therefore the raw material is vastly abundant in the universe and only needs refining into a more transportable form, namely, liquid.
Offhand I'd expect the fuel might be much more plentiful than the refineries. Every spaceport is going to need large reserves of it and would be wise to keep it in multiple locations around the port rather than one single depot to avoid catastrophe. On the other hand, a given system might have just a few solar orbiting refineries (to collect raw hydrogen expelled in solar wind) or electrolysis distilleries (to convert water into hydrogen and oxygen), depending on its tech level and amount of surface water. Some lightly populated, water-scarce systems may have no refinery capacity at all and need to import all its fuel. Tankers would be needed to supply these worlds, as well as warships which couldn't land themselves to refuel at a spaceport.
Warships and dropships presumably carry enough fuel to satisfy the military objective without refueling mid-mission. This is known from the description of basic operations: lift off from one planet, meet jumpship for transport, burn-in to target system, land or orbit for potentially months at a time, then lift off and burn back to jump point for transit back to friendly system, then burn home. That's four system burns plus orbiting or sitting around planetside without refueling.
The amount of mass for fuel and amount used per day at 1g burn is also known from TROs, such that the number of days of expected operation is known. For a Leopard is 74+ days and an Overlord 166+. That's plenty of operational cycles before needing refueling. (HBS's Battletech goes a bit overboard by assuming the Argo never needs refueling, or at least it doesn't happen with the commander's knowledge.)
For longer campaigns deep into enemy territory fuel would obviously be a concern and either needs to be addressed as a target objective, extra dropships are needed such that exhausted ships can be rotated back to friendly space for refueling, or tankers must accompany the fleet. Deep drives like the Clan Invasion, the Combine's run to New Avalon, or Clan Wolf expansion along the Lyran-FWL border would require significant logistical planning. The fact that these even happen indicates fuel is rather plentiful, and the primary concern is getting it from sources to the ships' tanks.
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Requiem
02/02/21 10:25 PM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
Every spaceport is going to need large reserves
Problem is there are no reserves – no spaceports – no tankers even during the exodus or during the invasion …… what’s more there are no ships designed to act as a refinery / tanker ….
In addition it takes SIX MONTHS from Clan space to the Inner Sphere ……
Thus for this ‘very much’ longer campaign deep into enemy territory the issue of fuel becomes an extreme concern
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The fact that these even happen indicates fuel is rather plentiful
Or it could be argued that the writers decided never to consider this issue within the game and as such was just ignored by everyone ….
Thus we have another issue within the Clan invasion that cannot be explained … thus can we now say all ships have an unlimited range and the idea of fuel should be ignored – and with it the idea of tankers – refineries etc
As whom-ever holds all the major refineries controls the shipping of a House / Clan as they can dictate price etc ….
It is also of note that fuel and the issue of fuel for jump-ships or drop-ships are not even discussed ….. should also be taken into consideration!
As when you bring fuel into the war – all tankers / refineries become an instant primary target for aerospace fighter attacks …..
Also where is it written when everyone agreed that Jump-ships became inviolate from attack within the Inner Sphere that refineries also became inviolate at the same time?
This brings up many unanswered questions …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/03/21 02:49 AM
66.74.60.165
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The Mammoth Dropship carries 40,000 tons of cargo. I would assume that is wet or dry. That sounds like a lot when you figure a small fleet of dropships using it.
With this, it definitely seems like the exodus fleet was lacking fuel ships in their listing. Part of why a lot of numbers don't add up.
This is part of the issue I brought up a while back. Very few people actually figure out the real numbers and types of ships for an invasion, as they tend to (understandably) forget things like bringing in support personnel and vehicles.
Yes, a major target for an invasion would be space ports, but that isn't always something that can be done. Or if you want to be realistic, someone sabotages the tanks and makes sure there is no fuel left for the enemy to use. If you don't have your own dropships or fighters on the defense, and just rely on the HPG to have someone send some, then this is not a tactic to be ignored.
But refineries and such can't be that common. Too many stories suggest that like ammo, isn't all that plentiful. Pirates and normal raids would be so profitable if it was, that there would be no shortage of those items for the pirates and raiders. Yet a good chunk seem to be running on less then half loads for things. Might be to make a scenario that smaller defenders can fight off a large pirate group, as they DO have a shortage.
Also, it questions why the prices are as high as they are. An over abundance would drive prices down. Not something businesses would want.
Now that is not saying there aren't reserves as most jump stations have refueling available. It also says in the books starports have fuel to buy.
I will grant it that this is being a bit picky. The game is supposed to be simple in a few things, to avoid accountants having issues following it all.
This all started as the group I am playing with are mercs, and not really rich at this point. Everything is limited, and the idea of where to get it without stealing it came up. Not all contracts have refueling or even transportation paid for by the employer. We happened to piss off a lord that controlled the region we were in and he decided that no one was to sell to us.
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Wick
02/03/21 05:55 PM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
Quote:
Every spaceport is going to need large reserves
Problem is there are no reserves – no spaceports – no tankers even during the exodus or during the invasion …… what’s more there are no ships designed to act as a refinery / tanker ….
In addition it takes SIX MONTHS from Clan space to the Inner Sphere ……
But the Exodus fleet only made planetfall once, maybe twice during that trip (and not with every dropship either.) Only the in-system transit is burning significant amounts of fuel. Jumps alone don't use as much which is how they could execute the Exodus without needing to refuel on the way. By the time they reached the Pentagon Worlds many ships may have been running low, but its not like they only had enough to last a single month and the remaining months are simply unaccounted for.
Consider a Union (probably the most common dropship in the Exodus fleet.) It has 116.8 days of fuel. Its going to cost 22 to exist the New Samarkand system, and as many as 16.1 days to reach the furthest Pentagon World (Eden). That's 78.7 days (or 67.3%) worth of fuel remaining that is going almost entirely unused during the trip while attached to the jumpship's docking collar. With those amount of reserves they could resupply warships or jumpships if they were running low.
I really just don't see any problem with the fuel for the Exodus fleet. To be honest, I find it more unbelievable that they could feed 7 million people or retain enough oxygen for that number of months.
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Or it could be argued that the writers decided never to consider this issue within the game and as such was just ignored by everyone ….
Thus we have another issue within the Clan invasion that cannot be explained ...
But they did. And it can. They gave us worlds like Nouveaux Paris, Harris, and Bazaar - purpose-built resupply stations along the invasion route. I mean, some of the sites are even called Transfer Station, of which fuel is one of the things that would be transferred. I'm frankly astonished that you say this can't be explained.
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Requiem
02/03/21 08:32 PM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
Its going to cost 22 to exist the New Samarkand system, and as many as 16.1 days to reach the furthest Pentagon World (Eden).
Problem is as per …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_EXODUS
5 November 2784 – the exodus fleet began to leave the New Samarkand System;
August 24 2786 - reaching the Pentagon Cluster Kerensky announced the fleet had come to and end of their journey
Result 658 days (including end date in calculation)
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To be honest, I find it more unbelievable that they could feed 7 million people or retain enough oxygen for that number of months.
Additional problem – loss of muscle mass / bone density due to being in zero gravity – then there is the issue of children born during the exodus as well as all the massive amount of equipment / resources required to commence a viable colony.
The biggest issue is why you would take with you all your military Battlemechs etc as they are virtually useless when starting a colony except for protection (both from without and within) thus for the inevitable coup that was destined to occur? Or if they were hunted down by IS forces?
Sorry to say but the entire idea of the Exodus just does not hold water!
Nouveaux Paris, Harris and Bazaar - problem is there is no definitive date as to when these three were created except for 3059 – thus they were created POST / During operation Revival war – additional evidence that they did not exist during the initial years of the war – when the ComStar / Clan Traitor, Trent, was collecting the exodus road information was there any reference to these? I cannot remember any.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/04/21 02:14 AM
66.74.60.165
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Well the fleet did have ships that headed off to other systems along the route, as they were setting up decoy places to try and fool anyone following them.
As they were worried of pursuit, that would mean combat patrols, and I would think that would include warship and dropships on patrol as well as large fighter patrols.
The food/water/air issues would have been just as bad, even if they used ice asteroids and make hydrogen/oxygen with them. But then this also depends on how good their air filters are. They may have been far better then anything we have today, and we know the future in the game does NOT necessarily mean better (Weapons range cough cough).
Actually, using mechs in a non combat role can be very helpful. They are self contained atmospheric units that can survive a wide range of issues, and can be used to clear areas out for others. It they have hand actuators, they are more useful as well. Hand held items can be used as well, and the movement/aim issues aren't that bad if they are just using chain saws for cutting lumber, or digging trenches and such.
They work even in void situations as well, so it is possible, though difficult for them to be used to work on the outside of the ships for things like emergency repairs.
The Vehicles they took would be more of a waste of time and space then the mechs. The storage of huge stockpiles of weapons would be another waste, unless they honestly thought they were going to be fighting others. The techs and scientists they brought with them, should be able to build those very weapons in workshops on ships in the fleet.
I recall one of the books dealing with the invasion not only saying they were building stations for supply depots while the rest of the fleet headed to the IS, but multiple routes were done as well, so each clan had their own depots.
Now the big question on Task Force Serpent comes with the map to find the clans homeworlds. As the Smoke Jaguars would NOT have had their ships heading out the OA route of the old Exodus, there is NO reason for the task force to have headed out that way, as that route would have not been available. The clans were no where near that area during the invasion and unless the Dragoons had the map, this route could not have been done.
Edited by ghostrider (02/04/21 02:32 AM)
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Requiem
02/04/21 04:27 PM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
they were building stations for supply depots while the rest of the fleet headed to the IS, but multiple routes were done as well, so each clan had their own depots.
Problem –
Not only is it an inefficient use of limited resources for each clan to create their own transport fleet,
It also poses a massive problem for ….
Establishing an efficient refuelling system – that is unless EVERY invading clan decided to create multiple refineries as well as possessing a fleet of tankers and crews that are specially trained for the purpose. When considering the size of clan space as well as their predilection for remaining within Clan space for the past couple of centuries it is difficult to believe they (each Clan) have the massive number of ships / personnel available – then there is the issue of canon information provided to support the hypothesis – is there any available?
Also establishing the HPG relay that was shown to exist during the second vote for il-khan – more efficient if there is only one route with one chain of multiple space stations / refineries / tankers / HPGs etc …..
Quote:
…. unless the Dragoons had the map, this route could not have been done.
Simple orienteering / algebra / cartography – all that is needed is an end point then it is just a question of utilizing existing ComStar Explorer Corp Maps as well as the theory behind space exploratory theory that is used to discover new systems or even jumping through empty space in order to reach an end target world – when considering many of the vast distances between some planets within the IS, this is a achievable by many Jump-ship captains (especially military ones as in reality this should be SOP in order to reach a raid / target of opportunity – otherwise every-time your ship exits is jump your energy wave will give you away, and then it is a simple HPG call to every system close by that an unknown fleet is on its way …. As well as providing time for enemy forces to prepare for the raiding force …..
Quote:
…. using mechs in a non combat role can be very helpful.
Limited space available – when considering the size of the fleet as well as the number of people how many specialist vehicles, buildings, factories are required to ensure a minimum level of technology is available for the colonists thus in all probability military must be sacrificed for civilian ….. then there is the issue of how all this equipment was obtained without generating multiple red flags …. Considering the number of spy agencies this is incredibly unlikely …..
Quote:
…. were setting up decoy places to try and fool anyone following them.
Kerensky Paranoia? – I have come to the conclusion that Kerensky must have been psychologically deranged by the time of the Exodus – and this was the true reason why the House Lords decided to “Retire him” …. They noticed he was unstable …..
Quote:
…. food/water/air issues
Yes I agree …. Too many plot holes that cannot be rectified unless there is a massive rewrite ….
Also I would like to say that with the introduction of IS omni-mechs (eg. Kurita) every House involved in the war should have established multiple versions – in order to rectify this I have taken WOB Jihad era omni-mechs and used these as a blueprint for establishing first generation onmi’s for all three Houses.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/04/21 08:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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As said before, had they all shared the same routes, they would have been fighting at the start of the chain for supplies.
So to avoid such a problem they had their own routes, and were protecting them. I want to say the novel dealing with the Highlanders posing as Smoke Jaguars raiding the Nova Cats said as much. Granted, novels are not as solid for being full blown canon as say a TRO is, but it is more then naught.
SO the fact that the whole route was not straight but curved is overlooked in the statement of calculating from start to end point. If that was done, then going from where the clans invasion of the IS started would be the start point, not an area that none of the clans had taken to invade. All ships would be using that route, not the exodus route near the OA.
How material for the exodus was gathered should have been caught by all the spies in the IS at that time?
Really? The IS had no idea of what they had left behind, much less what they took with them. All the lost SL bases would have been known and raided in the first few months of the 1st war. The material alone, would have been able to allow house forces to field more then a few regiments. Galtor makes a major statement to this. It was found in 3025 or so. It was a major warehouse, yet not known to anyone. Well a little more specific. The houses found a small one, not the huge one. Even Comstar wasn't aware of it, otherwise they would have seized it before the houses found it. And Comstar was the ones that had the records of the SL and still didn't find a chunk of the bases that were left behind. And they were actively looking for such bases to kept the tech out of the hands of the houses.
I see the tactician has come out again. A force fleeing an enemy would never try to decoy someone following them with such tactics. The whole scatter order does nothing like this at all. The fact that some things were retconned and made a few t hings printed a bit obsolete, like dumping garbage in the jump points doesn't change the fact that making decoy areas obsolete. Having some loop back on the followers would be more then enough to at least make them split some forces to make sure their rears are not about to be swamped.
Rectified? The developers should have never tried to fill in the gaps and flesh out the story, They did not seem to account for anything other then the military units on a simple raid. Now it was said that they did have some resources rondevous with the fleet in space, so some of the questions can be lightened with this.
But now put this into the Wolverine's flight from clanspace. They would not have had the resources either. They had far less ships. They lost a lot of big ones before they got clear.
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Requiem
02/04/21 11:12 PM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
had they all shared the same routes, they would have been fighting at the start of the chain for supplies.
As said before, Problems with this assessment in ensuring an efficient logistics chain ….
1. Safcon … safe passage provisions;
2. The idea that Orbital Cargo Transfer Stations were included within the Deep Periphery – otherwise they would be superfluous;
3. The Number of ships / personnel required if each individual clan maintained their own logistics support network from Clan space to the IS and then throughout the Invasion Corridor – thus making it extremely difficult to efficiently maintain logistics within the battlefield – thus making the entire Clan Invasion a complete joke from the point of view of logistics / replacement personnel within the game!;
Thus in order to ensure an efficient logistics – one route – one set of Jump-ships / drop-ships all ending at an orbital cargo transfer system where you have a hub and spoke approach to each individual invasion corridor …
Thus eliminating all issues when it comes to multiple logistics chains …..
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The IS had no idea of what they had left behind, much less what they took with them.
This is why you have spies as well as having a black box HPG ….
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dumping garbage in the jump points
And why is there not a complete recycling system? …. Thus making the need for obsolete sites with garbage irrelevant …
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Wolverine's flight from clanspace. They would not have had the resources either. They had far less ships.
Time to read the novel regarding this issue ….
They could have just stolen any number they wanted as all the ships were in dry dock – so all you needed to do was get on board and activate the computers and they were yours for the taking …..
Thus they only lost those they stole … and yet many still got away …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/05/21 02:49 AM
66.74.60.165
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Given the fact that only clan Wolf seemed to desire some larger form of supply routes, the waste of each one having their own is pretty much mute. Safecon would not be allowed, as it was a combat challenge to see which clan could take terra first. This does not mean that most might rely on the Diamond Sharks to provide what they needed, but the goal itself would negate shared supply lines.
Why bother ordering and paying for your own supplies, when you can just raid your neighbors, and remove their forces as well as taking their supplies? There was NO such agreement for Safecon in the invasion.
Given the Diamond Sharks were part of the forces that went to the IS, it is very likely THIER ships were used to move supplies when the other clans did not have the ships.
Might need to pay attention to the context of the statements before making more comments. The context dealt with the Exodus road and why it could NOT be the start for Operation Serpent. Only the Dragoons might have had the actual Exodus road route, as the invading clans would NOT come close to moving anything near the OA in the invasion of 3049-3051. The statement of spies came up with this when it was said that the houses did not have an idea of what was left behind, much less the route start of the exodus. And with this, the black boxes were not in the hands of the FC during the SLDF Exodus.
Recycling should very well have been on their minds. But garbage could have been more then just metal scraps. Moving asteroids and such could have worked well for this. But retcon removed this from the history of the game.
Logic is failing with the idea that the Wolverines could have stolen any ships they wanted to. First off, drydocked ships tend to be there for a reason, such as comeplete refit of the engines, and for war ships, jump cores. This also would mean that when declared dezgra or even annihilated, the other clans did not bother to announce this to say shipyards and such. If I recall right, they took what they could and fled with as many as they could. Given the clans divided all ships that went on the exodus between 20 clans, and the call that the exodus fleet could not have sustained those leaving, even the civil war devastation would not allow the Wolverines to flee with enough ships to sustain their populations for long. They were hounded for a while, so the GCL would have removed even more. No stopping for major repairs as ALL clan assets would be alerted to the Wolverines flight.
As the entire fleet can not be set in drydock, as there is no way they had enough berths to do so, this also puts a major damper on that idea.
On a side note, drydock ships would probably have most of the fuel and munitions removed so there isn't an explosion to destroy the drydocks if something goes wrong.
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Requiem
02/05/21 05:21 PM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
clan Wolf seemed to desire some larger form of supply routes
Only within the IS engagement corridor.
Within the Deep Periphery and along the exodus road is another thing altogether.
Given the Canon figures as to Jump-ships each Clan assigned to their fleet it is obvious that their logistics MUST have been completely ludicrous!
Though the main problem is that the PTB ignored this concept completely, just as they did for fuel / Sibko replacements; Reverse engineering Omni tech; Creating an anti toad rifle; Response to Turtle Bay; Establishment of the SLDF; or just attacking One Clan … etc etc (as the list goes on and on and on as to the number of issues that can be assigned to this extremely poorly written invasion!)
Quote:
Why bother ordering and paying for your own supplies, when you can just raid your neighbors, and remove their forces as well as taking their supplies?
Where is the loss depletion reports – where is the swapping over to primary energy weapons due to reduced consumables – where is the amalgamation of forces due to a lack of sibko replacement numbers – where is the IS exploiting this problem within the Clans ??????
Quote:
There was NO such agreement for Safecon in the invasion.
And if not then where is the repercussions for not having such a system within the invasion ….. again very poorly written story + very poorly though out as to cause and effect upon the front lines ….. did anyone ever bother to crack open a history book? Patton WW2 due to Operation Market Garden supplies and units were deviated, Patton was unable to push forward …. Similar issue with Rommel in the desert and his issues with supplies … how about the Japanese Army in the latter half of their war within the pacific?
Sorry but this just does not make any sense whatsoever … cause and effect …. No safcon ….. diversion of units / material / ships on the front line …. Increased damage due to fighting another Clan …. increased loss depletion report for men and vehicles …. How does this affect the next wave as to the number of worlds that can be attacked because they are off chasing down supplies? ….. how does this affect clan sibko replacement personnel as what happens if you attack and capture a rival convoy to find that it included a large number of replacement sibko personnel for this rival clan? …. and why didn’t any of this reach the novels????????
Again very poorly written!!!!!
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Safcon
“is an agreement where the defending party guarantees to not fire on the attacker while en route to the site agreed”
“a means of ensuring that only elements bid for the Trial are involved and to protect valuable DropShips and JumpShips from harm”
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as the invading clans would NOT come close to moving anything near the OA in the invasion of 3049-3051.
Ha?
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the houses did not have an idea of what was left behind
Actually this is SOP …. When a rival house assumes control over a new world the looser will ensure their agents will remain behind in order to communicate information back as to the worlds new military garrison etc …….
Black Box tech would also have been SOP given the private war between FC and ComStar that has been raging for how many years?
Again a lack of cause and effect within the story!!!!!
As for the Exodus route – again all you really need is an end point with that it is just a question of utilizing exiting Explorer Corp Maps / utilizing old techniques used during colonization era to enable your forces to reach the end point.
So again not a real issue.
QUESTION: How can you detect an asteroid has been moved years after it has occurred?
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Logic is failing with the idea that the Wolverines could have stolen any ships
Again read the Novel as this explains everything.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/05/21 06:47 PM
66.74.60.165
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Still forgetting support ships are NOT part of the invasion bid. They could have had none to thousands of ships moving supplies. It is likely that they hired some to move supplies, possibly between certain points, as to keep them out of combat, and used a few spares they brought with them to move it into the IS. As clan wolf DID use ships to make supply depots deeper into the IS WHILE they were still fighting in one of the waves, they did have extras. Taking ships is possible, but that would also mean having the crews available in larger then normal numbers. Jumpships crews are normally not warrior caste.
This does not mean that I don't agree with the numbers being off, as TPTB tend to forget what support units actually need, as thousands of labor caste are needed to set up bases and such. Yet they don't seem to be added to any fleets. I will lean towards the easy way out and say support units don't get numbers.
Again with the raiding the clan supplies when you have no real intel on what or where they are or coming from. The book listing x numbers of warships is fine for you to say they should have done this or that, but looking from an in game perspective, they did NOT know if the clans had warships patrolling their supply routes. Nor did they really have the extra ships to even recon this. The clans gobbled up anything that was caught on it's own. And most IS jumpships did NOT have Lithium batteries on them. So you jump near hostile clan ships, you can not run with a jumpship.
So you answered your own complain with Safecon. That does not stop an enemy from attacking your units, it just says you will allow them to land without being fired on. So your initial use of it, is completely opposite of what you wanted it for.
Go back and reread the posts. The entire discussion about the EXODUS ROAD is about the fact that the houses in 3049 onward, did NOT have the map for the exodus road, unless the Dragoons gave it to them. Trent did NOT follow the route from the SLDF leaving the IS thru the area near the OA. The Dragoons were likely to have when they came in, but the IS did NOT get it from the invading clans. Might I suggest looking on the IS map where the Exodus road left the IS, and where the closest invading clan of the time got to it in the first invasion.
Again, you are confused about the time line. When the SLDF left the IS on the exodus road, the houses had NO CLUE on what the SLDF left behind or where. If they did, hidden SLDF bases would not be lost. Not sure why this is so difficult to understand. The black boxes were NOT in the hands of the houses at this point. They were found in the 3000s. Not 2700s when the SLDF left.
Not being able to detect an asteroid that was moved is the very thing about answering the leaving garbage in the jump points to discourage pursuit. It does not mean using a dropship as target practice and scattering it throughout a jump point. But as stated, they retconned that so it wasn't an issue.
So the Wolverines stole all the ships they could and stopped the other clans from pursuit as they didn't have any to follow them with? Oh. Wait. Every drydock just happened to have fully loaded ships just waiting for someone to steal them. And when the clan was called for destruction, they were not locked down, allowing anyone to just walk up and steal them, along with having a full crew with them. Yeah. And with this, the stole more then enough fully stocked jumpships and such to make it to the IS, so they could raid for more before leaving. Sounds more like BS then the Exodus.
Having set up before the statement would suggest they were planning in robbing the other clans, which may well have been the real reason behind them being called for destruction. Otherwise, there is no sensible way for the Wolverines to get the supplies and ships to get away properly.
And no. The novel doesn't explain everything. It just gives you one persons perception of what they wanted to happen. It was retconned into the story line like most things anymore.
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ghostrider
02/05/21 07:04 PM
66.74.60.165
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Let's address the biggest plothole of the Wovlerines.
If Nicholas and others planned to annihilate them, why was it that none of them made any plans to make sure the Wolverines could not escape?
No code changes to lock them out of any ships.
No override codes to shut them down.
No blocking routes for them to even get loaded up into their ships.
No extra forces to be around when the fighting started.
HPG messages move faster then dropships to a jumpship, so all systems would have the alert out for the renegades.
So before continuing the Wolverines scenario, answer those and other questions. You will find that the entire history is a black hole of logic.
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Wick
02/05/21 08:45 PM
173.247.25.195
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Sorry I've been a way for a few days so I haven't had to address the fuel question.
Quote:
5 November 2784 – the exodus fleet began to leave the New Samarkand System;
August 24 2786 - reaching the Pentagon Cluster Kerensky announced the fleet had come to and end of their journey
Result 658 days (including end date in calculation)
I'm going to use your numbers from https://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/185173/Main/185149 because I'm too lazy to go confirm it from a canon source but they sound right.
Assumption 1: Since we don't know the exact composition of the fleet, I'm going to assume they have 5000 Unions. Some dropships will be heavier, some lighter, but for the purposes of determining if they could carry enough fuel, let's stick with it as its both common and mid-weight.
Assumption 2: Standard jumpships are going to use very little fuel. They may use a little for station keeping, but let's assume that none of them are doing in-system maneuvers until the end of the trip.
Assumption 3: The jumpships will not transfer fuel to Warships or Dropships. They probably could but this assumption now removes jumpships from any fuel calculations.
Assumption 4: All ships are topped off with fuel before leaving New Samarkand, minus the fuel it requires for dropships to burn from surface to jump point. With Unions, this leaves them with at most 67.3% of fuel to expend per above.
Assumption 5: In truth many Warships and Dropships would be short of having the maximum reserve. I had above stated that the Unions would need 67.3% of the fuel after removing any New Samarkand or Eden trips. Let's knock it down to 60% to account that not every ship would be topped off and that no one wants to be running down to 2% of fuel remaining. The Warships will start with enough fuel for a few weeks a well, but let's focus on how much we have to refuel them.
Assumption 6: The Exodus fleet is known to have sent off scouting parties and deception parties. We don't know how many ships were used in this purpose, but let's assume 20 per day fully burning at 1g. The vast majority of warships burn fuel at 39.52 tons per day, regardless of their class. (In truth the deception parties probably used little fuel while the warships probably didn't burn 1g continuously but instead dispatched more efficient dropships for scouting planets.)
With these assumptions, each of the 5000 Unions in the fleet, with 60% of their 215 ton fuel tanks remaining to be used, gives a grand total of 645,000 tons of fuel available be used during the Exodus. 20 warships burning 39.52 tons per day expends 790.4 tons of fuel per day. At this rate, they have 816 days worth of refueling available, way longer than the Exodus actually took. (In truth, they could get just shy of 25 warships with all above assumptions.)
So linearly speaking I think they had enough fuel. In actuality though they would have used deception parties frequently during the early parts of the voyage, then stopped for a bit, and started sending search parties at increasing frequency though the last year to year and a half. So the fuel consumption is going to be parabolic rather than linear. There's just too many factors to know exactly how much fuel they were burning at any particular point of the journey so a linear model is about the best we can do. It shows that's the Exodus could be done with the fuel available though.
Everything else though - food, water, oxygen, living space, gravity-wellness (they did have grav decks but not enough to satisfy 6 million people) and needless mech storage are legitimate concerns though.
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Nouveaux Paris, Harris and Bazaar - problem is there is no definitive date as to when these three were created except for 3059 – thus they were created POST / During operation Revival war – additional evidence that they did not exist during the initial years of the war – when the ComStar / Clan Traitor, Trent, was collecting the exodus road information was there any reference to these? I cannot remember any.
The Clan depots in the near periphery only became known and mapped in 3059. Some of them existed prior to 3050, most likely in late 3049 or early 3050. Canon establishes that the bandit kingdoms were wiped out around August and September 3049 and then a few months pass before the Clans enter House space in March 3050. So what are they doing during this time? Presumably setting up resupply depots and building reserves of key items (such as fuel). One of the things they likely did on these worlds was build barracks and training grounds for warriors that would either replace front-line losses or form the bulk of the PGCs, since its inefficient to wait for such troops to arrive from the homeworlds.
It's likely ComStar had discovered many of these worlds, but did so in the 2900s, found them unpopulated or so sparsely as to not matter and by 3050 were sending Explorer Corps much further afar and did not realize the Clans were rapidly setting up shop on these planets. Apparently they came across ComStar jumpships with HPGs a few times though for the details to get back to Terra. I don't think ComStar really knew which planets were being used for resupply bases until Trent or the Nova Cat defection, otherwise they'd have given out the information in 3052 and the Inner Sphere powers would have launched raids to take out these bases. I find the Nova Cats more likely, as the Clan as a whole would have known where they go to trade materials with other Clans while Trent was one guy who had a path to Huntress, but perhaps not to a lot of other places. Th Exiled WOlves are another candidate, but I find them less likely to betray their Clan brethren.
As far as each Clan having their own depots, this was mostly true, since they had warrior barracks and such. A Clan like Diamond Shark was likely willing to trade fuel for resources. All of the invading Clans were shipping huge amounts of resources back to the homeworlds and while the Diamond Sharks had no worlds in House space, they no less profited greatly by being nearby.
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Requiem
02/06/21 01:26 AM
1.158.229.22
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Quote:
Still forgetting support ships are NOT part of the invasion bid.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Invasion …. each Clan submitting the number of forces it planned to commit, with the goal of using the least resources necessary to achieve the objective and thereby maximize efficiency ….
Sorry but no, I disagree, when considering the forces that they are planning to commit this MUST INCLUDE all support forces (military logistics) necessary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_logistics as well as a detailed loss depletion report which must be compared to the expected number of individuals that will be graduating sibko to become full warriors.
In not understanding the significance (role) of military logistics as well as a loss depletion report this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding modern combat as well as its affect upon the army’s momentum demonstrating a very poor writing / comprehension!
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… they did NOT know if the clans had warships patrolling their supply routes.
This is why your attacking unit contains a big wing with nuclear ordinance – despite what the rules are a 5KT warhead direct strike WILL kill off any warship classification due to release of thermal energy alone – so until someone actually creates adequate rules, as well as specialist weapons / electronic countermeasures etc for naval vessels the naval side of the game will always be lacking ….
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…. Safcon ….
Sorry but I once more disagree … safcon does extend to logistics transport …. Protection of Jumpships / dropships and there is also the issue as to if there are no warriors present then how do you fight for the right to own them - with what forces do you …… ? or are the clans now into outright theft when they believe they can get away with it?
Quote:
…. Exodus road ….
As discussed in the game the Exodus Road was detailing the route the Clans used to return to the Inner Sphere and in no way was the same as the original Kerensky Exodus of 2 years, otherwise their initial invasion point would have been completely different as well as the massive logistics required to re-enter the Inner Sphere as well as the problems associated with resupplying an invasion fleet with a 4 year turn-around from Clan space … if you used the original Exodus Road.
Quote:
…. Wolverines …..
Again please, please read the novel ……
Wick,
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_EXODUS
A total of nearly six million personnel, a third of which were soldiers and the rest civilians, were carried in 1,349 JumpShips, 402 WarShips and over 5,000 DropShips
Considering the number of ships involved it would be reasonable to expect that upon translating from a Jump you will need to move your ship so that those coming behind you do not end up jumping right on top of your ship killing everyone on both ships ….
Then there is the issue of Warship / drop-ship movement during the exodus to find suitable planets to colonize or to acquire water etc for the 6 million people
So yes they most definitely would have had to used their engines
I would also like to point out the problem that if you do not use your engine for 2 years then expect it to work after this period of time just because of the argument that it worked the last time I used it (2 years ago) is a little bit strange ….
So again the issue of fuel must be addressed! As they in no way would have had enough!
The biggest problem with the game is that when you drill everything down to its components nearly everything does not hold water due to a lack of fact checking whilst attempting to work out if it can even be considered viable / or when it comes to the people understanding what is written about them can be considered to be truthful - too many within the game have a back story that cannot even be considered viable once you start researching the finer details !
So until then there will always be arguments as to the validity of many of the statements within the game ….
When space-stations suddenly appear in 3059 with no background whatsoever - there is no documented evidence as to how they were built, by who, and how they were built, (Kit form – on site or transferred from clan space in parts) as well as the time it took to build it then there will always be issues!
From my point of view the majority of the game needs a massive re-write – that’s why I am now onto re-writing history as well as the houses themselves.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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