Karagin
12/06/20 06:19 PM
70.118.172.64
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So I am re-reading Stackpole's "Warrior" novel and on page 223 of the epub format book, he mentions that the AC20 Justin has on his Centurion uses CASELESS ammo. Now here is the question, does that mean that the Caseless AC20 in the book is similar to the Caseless Autocannons found in the Tactical Handbook, or did something change between Stockpoles' dramatic description and the actual write up for the autocannon class weapons?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
12/10/20 11:18 AM
173.247.25.195
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It was my understanding that Caseless ACs were introduced to the rules primarily to address the unique weapon Justin's mech had in the novel. He is obviously using some kind of prototype though since production models didn't come about until after Tukayyid. So I just can't buy the idea that Stackpole's description exactly matches the Tactical Handbook version thirty years later in game time, but would be similar. I'd expect an early prototype like this to not have as much benefit and more penalty. Say 6 or 7 shots rather than 8 per ton (note that the wiki page incorrectly says 15 - this must have copied from the Caseless AC/10), it takes 10 critical slots like normal AC/20s instead of the 9 of caseless, and explodes on a 2 or 3, but keeps the non-explosive ammo bin bonus. The ammo would have to be custom manufactured though and so very expensive: instead of 10000 c-bills for a ton of AC/20 ammo its got to be at least 10K for a single shot of caseless. But for lack of prototype specs and a record sheet for Justin's mech, its all guesswork and apocryphal/non-canon.
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ghostrider
12/10/20 01:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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The idea that the ammo doesn't have a shell should mean it is smaller then the normal ammo.
Now with him using caseless, the question comes down to where he is getting reloads for it. If it was experimental, then the ammo would have to come from a specific source, not just any store that sells ammo for cannons.
So this would mean the prototype, or the test weapons were out in the public view, which is pretty much against normal protocol. And when the CC recruited him, that would mean it fell into the Capellans hands. And the FS didn't seize the mech before he got it? Really?
Yes, Solaris tends to be an area to have some being tested, but considering he was exiled from the FS at the time, something is really off here.
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Frabby
12/10/20 03:21 PM
79.212.145.104
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It was the eighties when this was written. Caseless ammo was en vogue in the real world at the time. Germany was going to equip its army with the cutting edge G11 (caseless ammo assault rifle). And the nuts and bolts of the BT universe weren't well defined. Authors got to make stuff up however they felt would fit the setting. Only natural to assume Autocannons would use caseless ammo in the future.
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Karagin
12/10/20 05:02 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
It was the eighties when this was written. Caseless ammo was en vogue in the real world at the time. Germany was going to equip its army with the cutting edge G11 (caseless ammo assault rifle). And the nuts and bolts of the BT universe weren't well defined. Authors got to make stuff up however they felt would fit the setting. Only natural to assume Autocannons would use caseless ammo in the future.
Nice...you give him an out, very well played. Still, the question is there, is this an attempt to get a caseless system in the game as a first attempt at the idea? Caseless ammo is still something they are going for and to some degree have reached with how the 120mm main gun rounds are for NATO tanks all that is left is an aft-cap which is far better than a huge shell casing as older rounds had.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
12/10/20 08:04 PM
71.47.193.139
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When "Warrior" was written there was no particular guidance on how autocannons worked and the Tactical Handbook wasn't out yet. The Centurion's AC was standard, not the Tactical Handbook caseless.
I think Frabby hit the issue on the head: caseless was cool in the 1980s.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
12/10/20 09:13 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
When "Warrior" was written there was no particular guidance on how autocannons worked and the Tactical Handbook wasn't out yet. The Centurion's AC was standard, not the Tactical Handbook caseless.
I think Frabby hit the issue on the head: caseless was cool in the 1980s.
Still is cool, they are still working towards it, the point being again that it's written as such and would make sense for something like it on Solaris, now in UNBOUND didn't they test many new weapons in the Arenas? So why would one of prototypes not be there? And what better place to test it than there in a setting that would be perfect for such testing...doesn't mean it works well enough to go anyplace, but it could have been the start of the push for the team dealing with what we see in the THB.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
12/11/20 07:22 PM
173.247.25.195
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Certainly a number of weapons are prototyped at Solaris. Claws, Maces, Coolant Tanks, Fluid Guns, and Mech Tasers all come to mind as being introduced at Solaris first, though some of those just work better at short distances and aren't as useful on a battlefield.
The big questions are, does Justin's mech carry a prototype, and if so, why is it 30 years before its productionalized? If the book actually used the term 'caseless' (or describes the ammo sufficiently) then answer to first question should be yes. Only answer I can give to second is that this was pre-Clan Invasion, and it can be argued that the houses didn't bother much with new weapon technology. But binary lasers in the 2900s and the Hatchet and TSM in the 3020s kind of dampen that argument; these all go from prototype to production in just a few years, as do most new weapons introduced post-Clan Invasion. Personally I think THB has made a bit of an error here by not making the production date sometime in the 3030s and then writing it off as a "failed" pre-Level 2 technology, like listen-kill missiles and corrosive coolant double heat sinks. By 3055 there are better autocannon alternatives (Ultra and LB-X) and CASE to protect against ammo explosion, making the Caseless AC only of mild interest.
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Karagin
12/11/20 08:41 PM
70.118.172.64
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It does describe caseless ammo down to the issue with the residue and venting. So sure we can dismiss this as author fiat and leeway, but the point is it's there in print in an official publication. 30 years from prototype to the finished product without a need of rush or high demand is not uncommon. The idea though that folks are so quick to dismiss stuff as well it's before X or Y so Z can't apply is part of the issue we have with the back story and current plotlines/story of this game.
Your other points are good ones as well on the THB.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Briarthorne
03/04/21 05:48 PM
209.129.119.10
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It could have just come down to economics, not the technology.
The company could have attempted to sell the technology to battlemech manufacturers and been rebuffed. The ammunition is scarce and expensive as no one is manufacturing it and the armories of the Great Houses aren't going to have any quantity of it, this is going to make ammunition a serious problem. Also there is dual issue of it being prone to jamming, and its tendency to favor heavier autocannons which commonly serve as primary weapons for battlemechs. Consumers might have a tendency to not want to buy that new Hunchback that you can't find ammo for and when you can, the cannon has a tendency to jam when you really need it.
These problems could be solved through mass production of the ammunition (to reduce unit cost) and refinement of the ammunition through further development. But since no one is buying the autocannons in the first place, then who are you going to convince to manufacture the ammunition and who is going to buy it? Chicken/Egg issue.
By the Clan invasion battlemech manufacturers were looking for something, anything, to give them an edge and they ran across this technology. Sadly, with Ultra/LB autocannon technology knocking at the door, this technology just never gained a foothold.
At least...that is my headcannon.
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