battletech the cartoon

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ghostrider
01/09/21 11:17 PM
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I just re watched the first episode and really forgotten just how much the cartoon doesn't follow battletech.
Aerofighters using a single missile per pass to attack a jumpship and dropship. Adam's Axeman having jumpjets that can catch a mech that was blown into space, catch it, use it's axe to hook it, and then grab a mauler and haul them all back to the jumpship. Lrms being fired off at basically point blank range, as well as lasers that constantly shot, but aren't pulse lasers.
And the axe being able to cut off a body part with each swing.

Having a Wolfhound's engine get hit and go critical and the mech exploding from it. And the head assembly not being deployed but a simple escape pod being shown.
Then add to it an Aeropilot having only a helmet on to protect against maneuvers in space, no pressure suit.
Sadly, a few argued this is canon. After watching it, I remember why I stopped watching it after the few episodes when it first came out.

I cringed when seeing the dropship that had an 'emergency' to board the kuritan jumpship flying around like a balloon that was released and flop around with the G-force that would kill everyone on board.

They really need to remake it with something a little closer to the actual gameplay and rules.
Reiter
01/09/21 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Aerofighters using a single missile per pass


Roll for successful hit, determine missile hits and group into 5 with less like 3 going into a single location.

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Axeman having jumpjets that can catch a mech that was blown into space


Creative writing, few books had so many engine hits it felt like reading out of a rule book during the invasion of Huntress during each challenge between different factions vs clans.

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Lrms being fired off at basically point blank range, as well as lasers that constantly shot, but aren't pulse lasers.


There was a rule that they could be fired under the minimum, but a hire gunnery check was needed. The lasers could of been fired in a time compression of several turns in a few seconds while one side was winning every initiative rolls.

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And the axe being able to cut off a body part with each swing.


Advanced rules, but I am making that up. Maybe they used defective armor, several mechs or vehicles mentioned lousy armor needed to be replaced for entire production lines.

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use it's axe to hook it


3025:TRO, Javelin was top heavy and actually states it required a certain roll in the mech history, pilots, and description. Roll 2D six with a certain number. if they can chop off Yeng-low-Wang's arm and fire an I-beam or Melissa Steiner killed by a bomb hidden a flower pot using water as a timer which is basically a short circut; than anything is possible.

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grab a mauler and haul them all back to the jumpship


only thing stupid about that, is newtons laws. 65 tons able to jump 120 meters on a planet would not have much thrust to turn back with a 90 ton mech; let a lone the fact that it jump jets are pointed down relative in the Axemen but it would be impossible to turn the mech around since it doesn't have multiple direction thrusters; even the power of a shaken 2 littler bottler of soda would turn an Axemen around eventually so the feet pointed in the right direction back to the jumpship.

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Having a Wolfhound's engine get hit and go critical and the mech exploding from it


random rules aside, an exploding engine could cause AoE damage. Look at IS CASE, it was pointless to use aside from text flavor; single hit crippled the mech since it could only go in the body unlike Clan CASE anywhere and no weight cost.

Quote:
Aeropilot having only a helmet on to protect against maneuvers in space, no pressure suit.

Life is cheap, tech was not. So he forgot it at the dry cleaners; guy has to help his brothers in need and didn't have to pick it up.

Somethings are explainable, rest of just creative license. Like trying to explain a storm trooper with terrible hit ability, even with fast firing blasters 300 trooper couldn't hit near as much as 30 guys in staggered firing lines during the days of a musket. 10x the fire rate, 2% hit probability vs a musket line.
ghostrider
01/10/21 01:03 PM
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The fighters fired off a single large missile. Almost like a bomb then a missile, but in space. It isn't that only one hit, but only one fired. The land battles that fired missiles had multiple being shot. I want to say they were Shilone fighters. It has an LRM 20, as well as 4 lasers.

I understand trying to compress the battle down, but one side fires multiple times, then the other? It made it look like you could fire weapons anytime you pulled the trigger. And the fact the Mauler could not walk without firing the shots into the ground was a bit much.

The axe taking out body parts was not against IS mechs, but clan mechs. Granted, the mech that it did so with, looked like a Hunchback IIC. The Hunchback fired off lasers, not the twin ultras, which is the main weapons of the Hunchback IIC.

If I recall right, the Wolfhound in 3050 still did not have ammunition. So an engine destruction would NOT cause the mech to explode. As stated in several threads, destruction of the fusion engine does not blow up the mech. It looks dramatic, but does not follow the games rules.

But this was more to suggest that the cartoon was no where near canon in what things actually did.

Had to check Dustball. The cities were inside domes, which meant that when the story had a fighter break thru it to flee, with a mech on it's tail, it should have depressurized the dome, killing those that were not suited up. As this did not happen, it is yet another oops to the cartoon.


Edited by ghostrider (01/10/21 01:09 PM)
Wick
01/11/21 03:55 PM
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To clarify, a destroyed engine does not explode itself. But a destroyed engine also can not dissipate heat effectively (in same fashion as a damaged engine), so an overheated mech is still at risk for ammunition explosion after the engine is destroyed, thus the niche for coolant trucks in the game. The mech doesn't simply drop to zero heat once its engine is destroyed. On the contrary, if one engine hit adds 5 heat and two adds 10, then a third hit to destroy it should be expected to produce at least 10 heat per turn, and possibly, either 15 or 20: at least in the turn in which it was destroyed even if the destruction ceases the fusion reaction to create further heat buildup in subsequent turns. In boardgame rules, a destroyed engine effectively takes the mech out of the contest, so whether it explodes or not isn't of consequence to the battle outcome (though it may to a campaign). But outside of single game rules, an overheated mech with a destroyed engine can suffer ammunition explosion. This doesn't explain why a standard energy weapon only Wolfhound would explode in such fashion though - that much is a mistake.

Theoretically the axe chopping of limbs is possible with a critical hit roll of 12 to blow limb off. Hunchback IICs have exceptionally thin armor for their size, especially in their arms (6 points) and an Axman can easily blow through them in one chop. The rules might still declare these limbs as merely destroyed, but logically a single strike of an axe would probably severe it completely. (My group many years ago had a house rule that an axe or sword physical attack that destroyed a limb would be treated as blown off without the critical hit 12 roll. We felt it not just made more sense, but helped litter the battlefield with limbs to use for clubbing.) I wouldn't give the TV show too much fault for this though. FASA got the physics wrong in the first place: for handheld axes like those on the Axman and Hatchetman the hand actuators should blow out or the axe deflect sideways as often as armor is punctured or limbs are severed. Only axes firmly affixed to forearms (like the Nightsky) or that completely replace the hand (like the Scarabus) are practical.
Wrangler
01/13/21 09:28 AM
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Wait till they get to the episode when they're at the Forgotten nebula Fortress. You get to see for the first time the introduction of drone fighter craft. This episode is exactly where it comes from.
When it hits the fan, make sure your locked, loaded, and ready to go!
Reiter
01/30/21 05:47 AM
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Haha, just saw something on youtube for the cartoon. Completely forgot how it looked, like watching the Transformers with the artists who did G.I. Joe from 1984 lol
Karagin
01/30/21 12:55 PM
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The thing I really disliked is how the characters could jump from mech to battle armor to fighter and be able to use all of it as if that is all they did. Sorry doesn't work that way at all. I get it it's a cartoon, but come on man, follow some logic.

Also whoever was doing the script and dialog had NO idea about the Clans. It's like they wanted Cobra or VENOM or the Decepticons vs an enemy that didn't have all the extra of bad guy-itist, yes they are the bad guys' NO they aren't THE bad guys of bad storytelling.

The story arcs were bad and didn't fit anything we knew about the game, but it was an attempt to broaden the appeal of the game and computer games.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Requiem
01/30/21 02:48 PM
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Please go back and re-read – the Cannon view was and always will be that the Clans are the enemy they were portrayed to be!

They are evil …. They are the bad guy’s of storytelling ….. their entire history / societal development proves how incompatible they are to working / functional and healthy society

Revisionist writing will not change this fact …. The Clans (yes all of them bar Wolverines) are that evil and yes they should have been expunged from the IS during the 3050 war onwards …. War to death as neither society IS or Clan can exist side by side each other … until each Clan undergoes a massive reformation as to its underlining core philosophy / sociology or the IS gives up everything that makes us who we are now!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
01/30/21 07:10 PM
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All clans outlook, including the Wolverines were changed during the exodus. The issue is how many got changed far more then others. Several million people left in the exodus. You can not lump them all into a single category, as the major shift in SLDF doctrine came as the Clan civil war raged. The outcome was not the end all horror as suggested by some. It was considered necessary by all that were tired of the destruction the Civil war created.
Then it got worse as a few leaders in the warrior caste decided only the 'elite' should rule. Seems to be following normal society progress.
No outside influence to show them otherwise in over 200 years.

The original reason for this post was to show that suggesting this is hard core canon is completely wrong. Except for the general facts that the clans invaded and were great warriors that struck from the shadows is about the only true to canon portion of it. The rest makes the game look completely stupid and foolish.
That does not mean the cartoon wasn't entertaining, but it completely misleads those watching it from the REAL canon rules.

The concept that an arm mounted weapon can not be fired properly when the mech is walking is but one MAJOR flaw in the cartoon. It suggest you can NOT move whatsoever when firing those type of weapons. Another major flaw is that most warriors did NOT use Advanced imaging tattoos in the beginning of the invasion, where the cartoon seems to suggest every clansman did. And even worse, none of them were even close to being the same.
Making this cartoon canon is revisionist writing.

Best reread world history. The clans did nothing that hasn't been tried in the history of the world. The only real difference is there was no one outside of their little society to show just how bad they stepped away from being considered human. Once someone did, they made sure to try and exterminate them, to avoid their own from learning.
Yes, the clans are the bad guys.
War do the death is NOT something the clans was not their main goal. To become lord of all is, but they did not want to kill anyone opposed to them, but have them serve under the winner. War to the death would mean nukes, bombardments and complete destruction of all that was not them. Full genocide would have been the end result.
Wick
01/30/21 07:35 PM
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Between 2786 and 2822, the Pentagon Civil War and Operation Klondike collectively killed something like one to two million people (mostly due the Pentagon Powers early in the war, and not due to Clan's return in Klondike.)

In the same period of time, the First Succession War killed between one and one a half trillion people.

So let's not call the Clans evil on the basis of their societal structure. The clear disregard for human life displayed by the Successor State militaries paints them as pretty despicable, too.

And even if the Clans are "bad guys" in a literary sense, its sometimes fun to play the bad guys. (Games like GTA and Assassin's Creed take advantage of this.)
Requiem
01/31/21 01:08 AM
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Quote:
You can not lump them all into a single category



Not true – yes you can, lump them all into a single category when the entire clan system is based upon upon a class system – with warriors at the apex and all others are treated no better than indentured servants (slaves in all but name!)

Their entire culture/ society is based upon this premise – So where and when will Spartacus / Abraham Lincoln be reborn?

Quote:
the cartoon wasn't entertaining, but it completely misleads those watching it from the REAL canon rules.



Problem – the cartoon is either Canon or it is not – it cannot be half and half – if two of its major characters becomes Archon / and a scion becomes Coordinator how can the remainder be consider not to be true?

Quote:
Making this cartoon canon is revisionist writing.



Problem - Original release 1994
And if I remember correctly the clans were introduced either 1990-1991
Thus the cartoon was established within the initial years.

Thus everything there after is revisionist writing

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War do the death is NOT something the clans was not their main goal.



Can a Clan ever remain at peace as an Inner Sphere Realm can – remember they prosecuted their own ilKhan for 15 years peace after all? ….. so the answer – Never, they are Mongol after all

And this is also an underlying issue with their society – they can never not be at war so the only way to achieve peace is war to the death / genocide of every Clan Society!

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The clear disregard for human life displayed by the Successor State militaries paints them as pretty despicable, too.



And yet the Successor States still allow people freedoms – freedom to be who and what they want to be, freedom to go where they want to go – can this be said of the civilians within the clans

Also does any Inner Sphere realm remove children from their families the way the Clans do? Do any put them through psychological training the way Clans do to the point where when asked they will even commit suicide en mass because their genetic make up is wrong – as the Bears did when they discovered that many of their children were in fact half wolverine ….

No matter how you look at it Clan society is completely and utterly abhorrent to modern thoughts on freedoms and self identity
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
01/31/21 04:45 AM
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How many movies are made based on a true story, yet was not the actual way the events played out?
Oh yeah.. ALL OF THEM that aren't documentaries.
If the cartoon is canon, then quite a bit of the rules are completely nullified. So anything that was done during this time, until the next set of rules/update came out, and wait... Those rules were wrong then as well. The cartoon counters more then a few of them. So how can the rules be countered and still be canon?

Let's see the timeline. The cartoon came out 2-4 years after the TRO was out as well as the rules dealing with it. The story lines were set, and then the cartoon was made. The cartoon negated a lot of things that was already in print and out. Yeah. That isn't revisiting the entire set up that was already out.

Best learn the difference between eternal war and war to the death. Eternal war is more like what the clans deal with, but they are not out to exterminate their entire population. Some would love to dream it, but reality sets in that those people are needed to keep the leaders in their positions. Without them, the leaders would starve, as they would not even attempt to work the farms and such. And with the trials, it allows them to fight without destroying the support mechanism that allows them to constantly fight.
And what happens when one clan conquers all? Who do they fight then?

Freedom only exists until you step in the way of the powerful. They do not have the freedom to go anywhere they want to. More then a few things are restricted.
You might want to read about the CC with some of their spec ops. They DID take children away from their parents in order to make assassins and such. The DC had some history doing so as well. Even the FS has done it, but that was unusual.

ALL of the entities in the game are bad in more then a few ways. Sad thing is, it follows human history. Some are just not as bad as the others.
Karagin
01/31/21 11:11 AM
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Yes, they are all bad, but the Cartoon took the approach that the Clans will ALWAYS lose just because they are the bad guys, and that is NOT how the game itself ran things. As I said the writers turned the Clans into Cobra 3.0 as far as the portrayal and how they did things. The only thing missing was the Commander talking like Cobra Commander.

Yes, Clans are the bad guys for the game as a whole, but they are not the typical Space Bad Guys, they are fleshed out, just like the Houses are fleshed out and folks like all five of them and will for some try to play their forces as the books say each House acts etc...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
01/31/21 02:25 PM
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The Banshee fighter.
A development by Wangker Aerospace in an attempt to increase the flight time of Aerospace Fighters, the BSE-X2 Banshee utilized a dual-motive system, using a standard fusion engine for space operations with a second fusion-based turbine for in-atmosphere combat. While the prototype showed incredible longevity and surprisingly good handling, the sheer mass of the two engines made the fighter sluggish, capable of a mere four Gs of thrust. This, coupled with armor protection on par with craft half as heavy, would leave the Banshee a sitting duck for most other fighters.
The BSE-X2 Banshee is subject to the following Design Quirks:[1]
Atmospheric Flyer
Illegal (Dual engine design)
Illegal (Conventional VTOL equipment on aerospace fighter)
Obsolete\3046 (Illegal Design)

Interesting that this illegal design is canon. Two engines in an aerofighter?
Can hinge just behind the cockpit to land on the thrusters in the back while letting the pilot in the cockpit remain level with the ground?

More such garbage to follow in the future.
Reiter
01/31/21 03:44 PM
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Quote:

Problem – the cartoon is either Canon or it is not – it cannot be half and half – if two of its major characters becomes Archon / and a scion becomes Coordinator how can the remainder be consider not to be true?



It is cannon...

Quote:
the Tharkad Broadcast Company released a semi-fictionalized holoseries based on Adam's exploits during the invasion, mixing in the battles on Barcelona into his initial raid and recapture of Somerset. Intended as a morale-boosting exercise, the poorly-reviewed series successfully helped to instill national pride in the Lyran youth, selling trillions of S-Bills of merchandise in the process



So much as it is fictionalized as not being real and just a propaganda series for the FC.

Officially, its a non-cannon backstory set in the real canon universe; so saying its fake in the fake universe of Battletech makes it a real fake in the real universe of Battletech.
Requiem
01/31/21 05:04 PM
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Quote:
The cartoon came out 2-4 years after the TRO was out



First, when considering the production time line to write / create the cartoon it is quickly realised that there is a parity in the time line.

Second, the game rules are flexible in order to create a better game – as for canon is it allowed to be modified at any time for any reason?

Third, how many times have the clans killed off segments of their entire culture in order to achieve their ends – from the Wolverines onwards?

Fourth, can the clans ever stop fighting – and for what reason would they put down their arms - so until they are willing to give up their weapons they and their culture is a threat – and as seen with the Smoke Jaguars only the complete and utter destruction of the warrior caste can there ever be peace.

Fifth, small instances of removing children can in no way equates to a state policy that has been in place for how many centuries – thus the point is?

Quote:
Freedom only exists until you step in the way of the powerful. They do not have the freedom to go anywhere they want to. More then a few things are restricted.



Really????? … human history? …. Then how did we get the Magna Carta how did countries break from the powerful to go their own way??

Quote:
the Cartoon took the approach that the Clans will ALWAYS lose just because they are the bad guys



Really????? ….. and what did Adam actually win in the end an evacuated world that the Federated Commonwealth was unable to hold.

The Clan Warriors did any of them work for the betterment of their entire people to bring them the freedoms seen throughout many of the Inner Sphere States circa 3050? Ans not a one – not even Phelan or Ragnar considered the people to which they were supposed to be governing - both should have known better!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Wick
01/31/21 06:11 PM
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Quote:
And yet the Successor States still allow people freedoms – freedom to be who and what they want to be, freedom to go where they want to go



Really? The Capellan Confederation does not allow much freedom of movement between worlds for most. The Draconis Combine forced the farmers of Luthien to relocate and outlaws religious freedom under penalty of death. The Republic (the Republic of all factions!) implemented a massive forced relocation of much its populace.

All the major Inner Sphere realms - be them major houses, both minor house realms, or any of the major Periphery realms - operate on a caste system of some sort, even if its just two levels of nobility and everyone else. Somewhere in every realm you can find examples of the nobility interfering with people's rights. I don't see how this is hugely different from the Warrior caste abusing its higher station against the lower castes. To call one evil and the other virtuous is merely the wearing of rose-tinted glasses. Undoubtedly the Clans were presented as the "bad guys" but I don't think they're anymore "bad" or "evil" than some of the other factions treated as "bad guys" in fiction, namely the Draconis Combine and Capellan Confederation. They all do bad things, but for the most part aren't bad or evil in general. Some of the Clans are even now considered "good guys" - particularly Clans Wolf and Ghost Bear.
ghostrider
01/31/21 08:03 PM
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What is canon without following the rules? Or the rules without having canon follow it? It becomes complete fiction, that can not be used to further each other.

The SLDF have killed off parts of itself before the Amaris war even started. This has been done throughout history. It is being done today, as militaries are destroying their own units to avoid scrutiny. Normal purges can be said to follow this concept.

Can humanity ever stop fighting? The clans are only a smaller version of the IS in territory, but bigger in the fact they use violence more. The brush stroke you are trying to use covers far more then what you want it to.

So having one small area do the same thing as the entity you are trying to say is horrible, but yet saying they are the ONLY ones to do this says the meaning is not what was thought. I personally don't agree with everything any country does. This goes with the military as well. I never will, as there are things that have to be done, that are horrible, yet other things that are done, are done because someone with the power decides it needs to be.
The clans seem to have taken the idea of Bushido and advanced it to a conclusion that does not seem that far fetched. Time has done to it what it does to almost everything. Change it from what it was supposed to be, into something else. Greed and power is the basis for such changes.
The fact that some think their name gives them the ultimate reason to inflict what every they feel like on others, is the very reason why the clans did away with last names. And yet that very issue still came out with the bloodnames. Pride should be earned, not demanded because your parents were named Churchill or Patton. Your family should not be demonized because it is Rommel or even Caesar.

The vast majority of humanity was not able to just pick up and leave, and if you really look at who was able to leave europe and asia, you will see most were DRIVEN out for not fitting in with the rich and powerfuls desires. The first explorers were sent out to find new resources, but the leaders tended to decide if that person or group could do so.
As for breaking with their original founders... Maybe that is because there were so many other countries around, that caused things like say the U.S. to be able to leave the Brittish empire. Other countries were greater threats that had to be contained. So England decided to cut it's losses and leave it alone. This is very much the history of mankind.

The concept of brainwashing multiple generations of people doesn't seem to hold any meaning to the argument. Those in power were told and reinforced by a lack of any other examples in the clan culture that freedom only belonged to the leaders. Even the elites of the elites had to follow rules and laws. With military in charge, no one could even think of challenging them properly, and the Dark Caste was not able to do much about it.

Assumption comes up next. Phelan and Ragnar had worked to preventing the integration of their people into the harsher clan ways. They were not completely, or even majorly successful to this, but their people still had more freedom then the clans own people. Simply preventing things like automatic punishment from talking back to a trueborn is a victory, when you can't remove the clans from your worlds. Small victories like this, are sometimes the only ones you can get.
Karagin
01/31/21 08:27 PM
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https://www.sarna.net/wiki/1st_Somerset_Strikers_(sourcebook)

This says's all canon or at least the majority of it...note the answer to that question in the intro of the article and entry.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
01/31/21 08:29 PM
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Yes, the Clans are harsh, yes they limit freedoms, yet none of the House Lords or Inner Sphere powers are true bastions of Freedom either, all have their versions of things and all paint the other side as evil. I seem to recall in the Warriors of Kerensky source book Phelan and his father talking about the Clan kids TV show and how the IS had their own version of those as well.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
01/31/21 08:51 PM
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Unlike the cartoon show, which was semi-canonized as an inaccurate holovid in the BattleTech universe, the sourcebook itself is fully canonical. It was written with the intention of including as much content as possible from the show in proper canon.

I like that statement in the wiki. Semi-canonized. Basic story line, such as based on a true story comes to mind, and with it suggesting the rest is a holovid, really puts the rest into focus.

The cartoon shows something of the situation of the IS during this time, but beyond the back story, a lot of it does not really match the canon version of the time frame.
It would have been better to follow more of the actual game rules, but it was meant to be entertainment for people, not so much as a running ad for it.
So with this information brought out by Karagin, using the cartoon as a basis for canon material is shaky at best, woefully inaccurate to down right against the game at worst.
Karagin
01/31/21 10:43 PM
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The show SHOULD have been an ad for the table-top game, but it seemed to be more of an ad for the MechWarrior Computer games like MechWarrior 2.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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