jackyjoy123
01/30/21 10:05 AM
45.249.73.212
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Hello,
I know that I brought this up a long time ago, but I have finally been vindicated! "Storms of Fate" repeatedly refers to the AC on Victor's Direwolf as a "Twelve Centimeter Autocannon"
thanks
jackyjoy
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Cray
01/30/21 12:25 PM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
Hello,
I know that I brought this up a long time ago, but I have finally been vindicated! "Storms of Fate" repeatedly refers to the AC on Victor's Direwolf as a "Twelve Centimeter Autocannon"
Different ACs by different manufacturers have different calibers. Canonically, AC/20s have been quoted as 120mm, 150mm, 185mm, and 203mm. Other classes of ACs cover a range, too.
All that matters is the total mass fired per shot. An AC/20 fires 200kg of shells per turn - it could be a lot of 20mm shells or a few 203mm shells.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
01/30/21 12:49 PM
70.118.172.64
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12cm = 120mm
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
01/30/21 02:30 PM
1.158.229.22
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Question: Ammunition – non standardisation has a problem in that with the acquisition of this hypothesis of A/C calibres being provided – then every time you acquire new ammunition you must be provided with correct type otherwise t is now useless.
Also calibres will have an effect upon range of the projectile due to mass and gravity etc …..
Thus will we now be required to be provided with new and updated list per mech for construction for every House and clan plus this will also have a massive impact upon logistics during every war and must now be taken into consideration?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/30/21 06:54 PM
66.74.60.165
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What do you know? The concept of generic listings for AC ammo does not follow logic.
So trying to use ammo from an enemy dump is highly unlikely, as the enemy is sure to use their own caliburs.
Now add this to the clans ammo for weapons and it becomes even more confusing.
But this is overlooked, so you don't have to play accountant and record how much of which size ammo you have, beyond weither it is AC: 2, 5, 10, 20.
You raid x ac 2 ammo, and it fits all, so you don't have to continue to import the real ammo you need.
If you did have to import it all, then more then a few invasions would never have been possible, as well as some counterstrikes, since ammo supplies would be destroyed.
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Wick
01/30/21 07:15 PM
173.247.25.195
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Most ammunition is assumed to be readily available, so whatever caliber is required is generally available. Except for special or customized munitions, or stuff that became LosTech (Arrow IV missiles for example), its all made just about everywhere in the Inner Sphere and Clan homeworlds. Ammunition factories are numerous to the point of being ubiquitous.
The larger militaries and larger merc units tend to use the same caliber for many units to simplify logistics. The Clans probably took it a step further and standardized to one or two calibers per class very early in their history.
Range only changes if all calibers are fired with the same amount of force. The large calibers obviously fire with a greater force, generating more initial velocity such that the ranges are identical to smaller caliber weapons of the same class. Since force is mass times acceleration, it doesn't matter whether you fire one big shot or many smaller shots - the amount of propellant needed is the same.
The same questions and same answers also apply to missile based weaponry, except the number of missiles are constant. Just based on mech art, its clear that some missiles are short and high caliber while others are longer with a smaller caliber.
Because the ammunition for whatever calibers are needed is considered plentiful, I don't think there's any need for it to be detailed on TROs. It only matters if you're playing an extended campaign, which is more of a story element or RPG factor than normal game rules. In most cases an attacking force brings enough ammunition or can scrounge up enough from nearby cities to get the job done. Exceptions would be long drawn out guerilla campaigns or the Clan's general lack of foresight at Tukayyid to prepare for days-long battles.
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ghostrider
01/30/21 11:20 PM
66.74.60.165
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The issue I can see with different models of ac being named as AC 20, means that one manufacturer uses a size that is different from another. So the AC 20 in a regular Atlas, should not be able to use the Munitions for the AC 20 in a Hunchback, which is different then the AC 20 in a Demolisher.
The invasion into the FS during the succession wars would be very good for showing the problems with this. When they invaded, the DC was relying on taking ammo dumps from the FS to move forward. The idea that they can just slap in ammo found is a bit much. The invaders should have to wait until more ammo arrives, and on the counter offensive, the FS would not have the supplies it needed right away.
But as stated, it is not pushed as having to keep track of all the different sizes, means you could not get reliable amounts from raiding the enemy. So to make things easier, they just lump them all into one category ie AC 20, not 185 mm or 200 mm.
But the fact that AC ammo that can be used in all class cannons, is not kept that way when it comes to the clans vs IS weapons. You can use both in either weapon, yet the clans cannons fire further. It is an issue, but not one that stops the game dead. You play the game as the rules say to, and aren't worried about the issues unless you want more realism. It is just a point that should be at least noted.
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Wick
01/31/21 06:43 PM
173.247.25.195
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Quote:
The idea that they can just slap in ammo found is a bit much. The invaders should have to wait until more ammo arrives, and on the counter offensive, the FS would not have the supplies it needed right away.
But books like Objective Raids lead players to believe that ammunition is plentiful, regardless of weapon manufacturer. The fact that no ammunition factories or major deposits are identified as raid targets indicates they are so numerous as to be unworthy targets: destroying one doesn't really stop anything. On a small scale they obviously are worthy targets, either to resupply your own forces or deny the enemy use of them, but from a larger level, ammunition of almost all types and calibers is assumed available, even for the calibers used by your enemy, as salvage is a significant matter in BattleTech. You might think its 'a bit much', but in-universe its not an issue. Ammo is considered a technology readily available, like hovercars and trivid sets. Practically every militia base or outpost on every inhabited planet likely has an ammo depository and ammo factories are probably found in every village of reasonable size.
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ghostrider
01/31/21 07:37 PM
66.74.60.165
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Most stories make it sound like dropships have no limit to what they can carry. For a raiding ship, the Leopard has only 5 tons for storage total.
And more then a few stories tell of a unit being out of munitions, and have to raid an enemy munitions depot.
And this does not even cover destroying such depots.
As stated, I understand the reasons that the game does not deal with having to split up munitions according to actual size of the rounds.
What I don't agree with is that one cannons can launch the same sized round further then another of the same rating, ie the clantech being able to hit targets furthering the IS, yet use the same munitions. But again. This is done to avoid a lot of accounting on what rounds they got from where.
Part of military doctrine for some countries is using rounds that others don't. The 7.62 verse the 9 mm is a good example. Others use the the 50 calibur, yet the shape of the bullet can be different, as to not allow an enemy to use your munitions against you. This issue is why land assaults were such a pain. You had limited ammo with you, and had to go back to YOUR depot for more, then return to the battle grounds. From what I have been told, this was to prevent a break thru where your troops ran far ahead of others, and left you with no support. Makes sense, if true.
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Karagin
01/31/21 08:34 PM
70.118.172.64
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Keep in mind that having a common ammo pool does cut down on major issues of logistical nature. Even in today's world many heavy weapons can fire other nations' ammo, granted not the best choice but hey it can be done.
Also given that it makes sense to sell the same ammo with the same mech that ALL the powers are buying thus you don't have any extra cost or snags.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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