Velocity of Space-craft

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Requiem
03/10/21 05:49 AM
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Considering the movement points of LAMS / aerospace fighters / drop-ships / Jump-ships and Warships

Given the distance from a planet in system to the Nadir / Zenith say 150,000,000 Km, and say it takes 9 days, the speed is 694,500 Km/h (rounded up) for a drop-ship / jump-ship / warship;

Then when you consider the speed of a fighter craft would have to be 2 to 3 times this to intercept the drop-ship / jump-ship / warship;

Should fighters have two engines? A normal atmospheric engine (where the speed now for basic fighter is 2,000 km/h) with a massive booster to reach a speed of 30,000 km/h to enable the craft to ascend into space.

Then there should be a second engine whilst in zero-G that allows the fighter to reach 1,400,000 to 2,100,000 km/h in order to catch any fleeing jump-ship / warship travelling at a max speed of 700,000 km/h

Then when converting this to MP velocity becomes a very interesting question?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem
03/10/21 06:22 AM
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Also given the speed warships etc. are travelling at wouldn’t this require 100% energy weapons given the velocity of all normal munitions?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
FrabbyModerator
03/10/21 08:57 AM
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You can't intercept spacecraft in in-system transit. They'd be out of your weapons range again within seconds of being in range.

Remember that they aren't traveling at a set velocity. They are accelerating at 1g (1 meter per second, per second) for days on end until flipover in mid-flight, when they start braking at 1g to arrive at the target world with little or no relative velocity.
In mid-flight the magical BT engines rack up extremely high speeds.
ghostrider
03/10/21 12:46 PM
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Normal standard movement from a world or jump point is burn 1/4 of the way, flip and coast, then burn the other quarter, slowing down. If time is of the essence, then 1/2 to flip, then 1/2 to slow down.
As Frabby pointed out, once they get to a certain speed, engagement isn't very likely, with only a possible single shot coming from head on crossing flight paths, or a faster speed to catch up to the other ship. Lasers might be about the only thing that can be used, as the acceleration of the ships would make time on target beyond the ability of other weapons to compensate. It should be possible to fire ballistic and missile weapons ahead of the target ship, and hope you can time it so the shot hits, but given the fact that a straight on shot in space in the game is so hard to do, this would be near impossible. Not completely but 12s on the best shot concept.
This is why ships are not engaged between those two points.

Fighters can only go as fast as their engines will let them, so suggesting they go 2 to 3 times the speed of their target is inaccurate.
A 4/6 fighter chasing a 4/6 dropship has the same speed, if the dropship decides to go full out. The fighter will run out of fuel long before the dropship will. This is the deciding factor, as a fighter pilot is more likely to be set up to endure the top speeds longer then a dropship, as the crew of the dropship are normally not in a seat designed to help deal with the stress.
To be 2 times faster, the fighter would have to be an 8/12 speed.

A two engine space fighter besides violating the no two engine rule, would be that much heavier, meaning less weapons, armor and ordinance.

If you really want something to perform this feature, a house rule making some sort of booster for the fighter that has the engine/fuel capacity to at least attempt such a trick. The issue is if you survive, you probably won't have the fuel to get back home. It is unlikely to have a carrier or fuel tanker close enough to stop this.
And trying to fight at this speed creates another issue. No turns. To even try would require so much thrust to even move a little away from each other, or even towards each other. Speeding up or slowing down would be an issue as well.
This scenario is where mines might work. Lay it in the general path and hope the incoming ships run into the field. It isn't like they can dodge them, even if they can find them.
Requiem
03/10/21 04:09 PM
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You can't intercept spacecraft in in-system transit. They'd be out of your weapons range again within seconds of being in range.



Physics – The concept of Relative velocity on a position-time graph in relative velocity would say otherwise.

Object A and Object B will be able to establish a position of meeting at a time of meeting – from then on a constant velocity where Va =Vb can ensure the two objects are able to move parallel to one another due to their relative velocity.

In all reality any military naval computer should be able to calculate the trajectory (and if not any officer rating should be able to do so) and thus the physics to enable the ships to convene at a particular point as long as the trailing ship has the capacity to increase their velocity then reduce it once within range the two ships will obtain relative velocity. The only factor then is the distance separating the two ships with respect to the range of their weapons – utilizing any energy weapons (moving at the speed of light) the two vessels WILL BE able to engage one other.

This also applies to all aerospace fighter attacks – if they have the velocity / then they have the capacity to intercept, obtain relative velocity and engage.

Also the idea of flipping mid flight is not required as long as the ship has the ability to have engines fore and aft to make micro adjustments to their velocity in order to obtain relative velocity – alignment with the planet is only required at the end of the journey not mid way given the absence of gravity in space.

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A two engine space fighter besides violating the no two engine rule, would be that much heavier, meaning less weapons, armor and ordinance.



And rewriting the entire construction rules would not be difficult to so that armour and weapons are not sacrificed – this is supposed to be a science fiction game after all!

As for fuel capacity – ditch that – all engines are fusion in the future – the idea that petroleum / chemical engines still exist is a little hard to believe even with a decline in technology – once technology rebounds every major corp will be manufacturing fusion given the profit incentive to do so – and as stated previously when decreasing mass you will also decrease size! (as demonstrated by almost every technological advancement)

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And trying to fight at this speed creates another issue. No turns. To even try would require so much thrust to even move a little away from each other, or even towards each other. Speeding up or slowing down would be an issue as well.



Any onboard computer will be able to make this calculation to obtain relative velocity – once obtained all energy weapons and missiles with the same micronized engine that has a greater velocity than both ship and fighter will be able to strike given its targeting computer is able to lock onto the ship.

As for mines – doubtful unless they have stealth tech and also have an engine / targeting computer to obtain relative velocity to strike at the ship once detected. Otherwise their ability to be not detected and destroyed by the fore battery on the ship or just dodged by a small course correction would be achieved. It all comes down to how powerful the detection (active probe) equipment is relative to their velocity.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
03/10/21 05:20 PM
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Seems like the initial engagement is alluding you, so let me try to make this simple. You chase after a ship that is just as fast as you are, how do you catch up to it, in order to fire on it? For them to strike back, they could simple drop something in your path, unless you are able to dodge it, which means slowing down in order to move away from it?
For scifi, they use side thrusters, but it still affects your speed. In the game, it requires actual turning the ship.
Now this is suggesting that you started out in the same area with the same facing. Trying to angle in on a ship means one shot maybe 2 at the most before your angles takes you out of range, unless you ram the ship.
The only time the ship you are after might slow down is when it needs to in order to flip for their slow down phase.

Not sure what game you are playing, but no ship in the Battletech has engines in the front of the ship to slow it down.
I am going to assume that you would think the ship you are trying to engage did not go full out on the way in, so therefore has some extra thrust to stop it at the destination. Otherwise, you will overshoot your target until you can, and then have to burn back to it.

I believe you are assuming that both sides of this engagement want to stop and fight. Not something a raider is likely to do. They want to get their forces onworld before you can get reinforcements there. This is true for those trying to get out of system as well.

Now 'fixing' it so a ship can hold two engines and not worry about weight counters the entire concept of having a max weight, or that engines require so much of it to operate. There is no zero mass engines in Battletech. No gravity lens to lighten the ship. Might as well use magic to power the ship since reality isn't part of this topic at this point.
Now the statement of forgetting fuel is funny. The fuel is use to propel ships. The engine runs fine without expending any, but to actually move the ship, requires that fuel to be expelled. Again, magic comes to mind. Or may a full rereading of the rules as to WHY things are like they are. Even Ion or nuclear rockets expend mass to move the objects. Or do you believe fans moving air will allow space flight?

Again, overestimating what a ship can spot while flying at speeds and thinking you can just blow them out of the sky. To make a world in say 9 days flying from a point about Pluto to earth means going faster then a car doing 60. By the time you detect an item say the size of a desk, then try to target it, you are more then likely going to be past it before you get the chance. The mines don't have to move, but do have to be in your path.
As a suggestion, you might want to look over some physics on changing direction with a multi ton ship in space at speeds. It is not the same thing as trying to change your direction while at a full run.
This is talking a few thousand KMs a second. And as stated before, the thrusters are NOT able to just push the ship on an instant. Even fighters don't dodge that quickly in space, much less even 3000 ton ship.
Requiem
03/10/21 06:27 PM
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You chase after a ship that is just as fast as you are



As shown within the game velocity is relative – so when the chasing ship has a higher velocity this statement becomes …..?

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they could simple drop something in your path, unless you are able to dodge it, which means slowing down in order to move away from it?



First, what happens to anything thrown of a ship moving at extreme velocity? Ans. ripped to pieces so unless you have built this mine with a massive structural integrity as well as heat resistance due to reducing in speed ……. Then there is the question of remaining on course as it is decreasing in velocity …. So good luck on that idea …..second forward batteries …. third even a small change in direction will put a vast distance between whatever was dropped off without even decreasing velocity!!!

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In the game, it requires actual turning the ship.



Unless you actually use engineering to redesign the ship’s super structure. This is again basic engineering where the rules of the game make no sense whatsoever …. If you can envision it you can build it.

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Trying to angle in on a ship means one shot maybe 2 at the most before your angles takes you out of range, unless you ram the ship.



So how do fighters able to strike at another fighter – same principle!!!!!!!

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fuel



The fuel is water – and a mech can run for how many YEARS on a tank of water – so how many years can a fighter / warship run on the same principle? Thus making the entire issue of fuel a waste of time.

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overestimating what a ship can spot while flying at speeds and thinking you can just blow them out of the sky



Question – how advanced will a simple laptop be in 1000 years – so how advanced would a military computer be at the same time? Also how advanced would the sensor equipment be? consider a patriot missle battery if it can work against incomining missles now then in the future it is also able to achieve the same result.

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As a suggestion, you might want to look over some physics on changing direction with a multi ton ship in space at speeds.



Again one super computer + one engineering system that enables the ship to move at speed – so again not a problem.

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the thrusters are NOT able to just push the ship on an instant.



This is a science fiction story so the “thrusters” or whatever do whatever you say they do!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (03/10/21 09:08 PM)
ghostrider
03/10/21 11:38 PM
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You chase after a ship that is just as fast as you are, how do you catch up to it, in order to fire on it?
so when the chasing ship has a higher velocity this statement becomes
So where did the question change from just as fast to faster? This sounds like you didn't bother reading the question in the first place.

Where is the friction in space you are talking about to rip apart anything dropped from a moving ship?
The initial idea was that someone could have placed mines in the main path of ships going from jump point to world or back again. But the leading ship could very well jettison the items behind it, so it moves at a slower speed, and you run into it. It doesn't even have to be explosively fired off the ship, just air pressure or even springs loaded.
With the idea you present, lifeboats would rip apart as soon as they are launched from a ship at speed. They don't.
And it seems you are forgetting we are talking in space. An object dropped should not lose speed, but you are accelerating in order to keep up with the ship you are chasing. You continue to increase speed, while the dropped object stays the speed it was dropped at. You will eventually pass the object dropped unless it has a thrust to keep it accelerating.

The super structure has very little to do with the fact that in order to move off in another direction, you need to turn the ship so the only engines can be used to push you off in a new direction. The stress of when you do so, is where the super structure comes into play. Any change in direction means the ship heading straight forward will move further in that time, as you are now off course, even if ever so slightly.

Dog fighting differs, as they are trying to exchange fire, not simple run past each other. Interception of something that does not slow to turn and fight is very difficult to engage properly. So basically, you make a single pass then turn to try and catch up.

Go read up on fuel used by ships in space. They use it as a means of propulsion. It is not running the engine, but being used as a reactionary force in order to propel the ship forward. That includes flying in space as well as launching and landing on a gravity world.

Game wise, laptops are worse then what they are today. But the battle computers used to fire the ships weapons are horrible. In real life, I would think they are able to process that data as fast as the sensors can give them information on speed and direction of the object verse the ship. But I will say that when you are doing several thousand miles a second, as the ship would be moving towards a world from a jump point after the initial burn from the jump point, seeing such objects is the key. Most ships use energy shields to move micro meteors and such out of their way, or have an object that is sacrificed to avoid damage to the main ship. This is not just at speeds approaching light, but even slower. The U.S. shuttles had cracked windows from hitting debris while orbiting earth. Imagine moving 10 times that speed.

Changing direction in space is not the same as it is with resistance, such as air or dirt. You slide for a ways before you do any real sort of movement off your course. Look at the course correction burns for going to the moon, then realize how slow you are actually going compared to making it to earth from pluto in a little over a week. And if you can detect something while slowing down, which the ship's burn tends to get in the way, it is even more unlikely to avoid the issue.

The speed of the ship moving as well as size and wieght determines how much thrust it requires to turn to move into another hex. Again. You argue with your magic physics when discussing a game that does not support magic. The game says thrusters do NOT do that at any time friendly speed. The slide of a ship is why it requires so much thrust to change direction. It is based on actual real life physics with dealing with space. To gain more ability to move faster in changing direction means increasing the size and power of those very side and front thrusters. That requires more weight as they need to be enlarged as well as powered properly.
Requiem
03/11/21 03:04 AM
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Where is the friction in space you are talking about to rip apart anything dropped from a moving ship?



There is not actually zero friction – trace amounts of dust, hydrogen, and radiation – and this will cause significant drag when you are moving really fast relative to the dust.

Consider the Bussard Ramjet - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet

Hydrogen from the interstellar medium etc.

What happens when you throw anything of a very fast moving object and there is the interstellar medium? Newton’s laws still applies. Or are you going to put an energy shield around it?

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150809-how-fast-could-humans-travel-safely-through-space

And in the final paragraph “The kind of technologies that could enable unforeseeable new transit speeds, if future physics finds out that such technology is possible,” Millis says, “would also give us new, unforeseen possibilities for protecting crews.”

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The stress of when you do so, is where the super structure comes into play.



If the vehicle can survive the stress of moving at this extreme velocity then it can most certainly handle a course correction on an elliptical plan – if the ship was unable to bear these forces it would just rip itself apart due to the drive.

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dog fighting differs, as they are trying to exchange fire, not simple run past each other.



This is why the ships are obtaining relative velocities in order to engage one another – in effect you are matching their speed …

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Game wise, laptops are worse then what they are today.



Subjective at best ….. Star League era or 3025 era or 3150 era ……

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Again. You argue with your magic physics when discussing a game that does not support magic.


Science and magic are the same thing; magic is only science that hasn’t been explained yet – Arthur C. Clarke – and any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic …. And When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

Remember we are 1000 years into the future within an empire of thousand of worlds with millions of ships of one type or another – with how many wars fought to hold onto these empires?

It would be ludicrous to believe that once a ship achieves a certain velocity is is now beyond the reach of any weapon system – if so why not make a weapon that can use this speed to crash into a world killing everyone on it thus ending the need for any other weapon system – you could effectively just send out a fleet and genocide off your enemy in one hit!

In the space of a couple of years you could easily kill off every world your enemy holds with such weapons.

So how are any houses going to fight against an enemy using a weapon such as this if they can never get near it once it starts moving – especially if you are not using the nadir / zenith point to launch your weapon – somewhere far from it ?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
03/11/21 12:49 PM
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It is very possible to build a ship that can handle speeds when it travels in a straight line, yet tear itself apart when trying to turn at that speed. That is why Structural Integrity is part of the game. As most ships reinforce the forward/backward style movement, to handle the engines thrust to move the ship, they tends to be weaker on the side to side or up and down movement. Weight savings to allow the ship to haul more, or use less fuel is two reasons why they do so. Economics plays a major part in this, as people plainly cheap out. A simple aluminum can should work for an example. It crushes easily when the sides are pressed, but takes more pressure to smash from top to bottom.

Not comprehending the part of the statement that the lead ship is moving on it's own target and does not want to engage? Dropships engage in dog fighting as well as fighters, but when one side is trying to ignore the other and has the same speed and distance, you don't get the fight you want.

Doesn't matter the era in the game. A lap top is not as powerful as it is today. A game super computer is nerfed as well. They can't figure out most things that deal with combat, yet some how, an AMS can shoot down missiles coming in. I am not suggesting mgs can fire at a klick and do damage to armor with this. But even during WWII normal tanks could hit others at a distance further then the game can.

An old computer game, I think it is called Mantis, does space battles more realistically. Normal games have you turn like you are in the atmosphere. Mantis has you having to counter the direction slide with every little turn you make, so you have to overshoot your desired direction until the ships momentum changes properly. It was a huge pain to do anything, including lining up to dock with something else.

Time to clue you in. Making a weapon that you can use high speeds to destroy worlds is called a mass driver. Asteroids are used for such a purpose. It is also possible to use, I want to say tungsten rods, though that is probably the wrong metal, to drop from orbit and it hits with a huge kinetic energy, like nukes but without the radiation. This is why gauss rifles are so dangerous and the fact better rail guns probably will never be used in the game.
Requiem
03/11/21 05:26 PM
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It is very possible to build a ship that can handle speeds when it travels in a straight line




Question – you are at max speed by the mid-point and at that point you are expected to roll the ship over to enable you to begin slowing down – how incredible would the strain of that one event alone put on the superstructure of the craft? Is you are able to roll a ship at extreme velocities how is it that it is unable to make course corrections.

Then all I need do is to have a faster drop-ship than the one you are fleeing on – plot your straight line course – get in front of your drop-ship and I will be able to not only capture your Jump-ship but also be ready to engage your ship once you come out of accelerated speed.

Then there is also the problem of what happens if there is anything in front of our ship as you are on your straight line path? You can’t evade – your moving too fast to fire your guns, so you just hit whatever is in your path and at these velocities it would be like a mosquito hitting a vehicle …… also due to the limited detection equipment you would not even know you are going to hit something until your ship just explodes around you … yes, this is great way to travel …. Completely unaware of your surroundings until you his something!!!!!!

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Economics plays a major part in this



How? when drop-ships are the main ships moving at these accelerated speeds between their jump-ship and the planet in question.

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but when one side is trying to ignore the other and has the same speed and distance, you don't get the fight you want.



It is not a matter of getting the fight you want – if you can maintain relative velocity with relative distance – which an onboard navi comp should be able to do all the minor course corrections - then you are stuck fighting it out, at relative velocity and relative directionality, until both parties separate from one another ….

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Doesn't matter the era in the game. A lap top is not as powerful as it is today.



Even during the Star League? Sorry but this cannot be considered factual - especially when you factor in Drop-ship navi computing – travelling at vast speeds for exact location egress - Jump-ship computing power to make a single jump / the department of Mega engineering / even getting a Mech to walk utilizing a person interface helmet …. Etc

The ability to compute all of these events is beyond every computer on the planet !

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But even during WWII normal tanks could hit others at a distance further then the game can.



Rule Input to enable the game’s simplicity – if correct distance are utilized then the maps would be massive or the game pieces would be 5mm high – game play would be incredibly slow to work out distance / line of sight – and everyone would reject such a system due to being too complex …. Ranges reduced on purpose in order to keep the game quick and fun ….

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Mantis



How popular is the 1992 game today due to its complexity? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XF5700_Mantis_Experimental_Fighter

Two stars out of five ……

There are other systems

Star Wars X-wing – Warhammer 40K Battle-fleet Gothic armada ii for example

What is required is a set of rules … otherwise given the facts as they stand any house could quite easily kill off another house in a matter of months …

So what’s the point of even having a navy is you are limited to fighting those at the jump point and surrounding a world / naval yard?

You know they are on the way due to energy signal detected from the jump point (or are travelling back to the jump point) so you then have multiple days to prepare ( or you can just get to the jump point first) your navy forces and you can then scan for their presence / single line trajectory so that you know exactly where they will decelerate to a point where your ships can just line up and open fire first – or you can even create a massive mine filed in front of them whist travelling at speed that they will crash into as they have absolutely no means of manoeuvring around the mine field as all they are allowed to do is go in a straight line.

Every fleet within the game is now incredibly useless – including every drop-ship as all you need is half a dozen picket ships with many mines who can effectively lay a mine field in front of any incoming ship as you know exact what straight line trajectory they are coming on (as you have many days warning) and all you need to do is place a few mines in front on them and they are now scrap ….. and they will not be able to move in any direction or even know until they are a fireball in space!

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Making a weapon that you can use high speeds to destroy worlds is called a mass driver.



Using a single drop-ship packed with a massive amount of very nasty nuclear waste / nuclear isotopes that hits the planet at an extreme velocity is called a fire-ship / kamikaze turning the entire atmosphere into ….. without the ability to put a mine field in front of the ship … there is not one weapon that can stop it once it is shot off from the Jump-point …..

In all reality this is the perfect weapon for the 1st Succession War -one drop-ship per world you want dead – very cost effective and gets the point across very quickly ….. that is unless minefields are allowed to stop the incoming ships ….

Either way the entire game has a problem …. Unless you can manoeuvre at high speeds and you can engage at high speeds
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
03/11/21 06:43 PM
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Really don't understand the difference between a turn and a flip over I see.
A turn requires full thrust in order to change the direction of movement from straight forward to a new direction. Flipping a ship does not change the movement of the ship, just the orientation of the ship. Much like being on skates or a skateboard. You do a 180 turn and do not even attempt to deviate from the original movement. Do a turn that is say even 30 degrees, and you are likely to be thrown in the direction you were originally headed. The thrust starts in as perfect as you can get it direction away from the original direction of movement. Hence accelerating in the opposite direction. Not at some angle.
Not sure why you think a jumpship would be moving quickly to avoid a fight, as they are more likely to jump out if they have a charge. Now having a faster ship removes this entire concept. As stated, both ships would be same speed.
Once a ship flipped you would gain on it, but you would need to slow down in order to maintain your optimal distance. Once you do so, you will slowly begin to fall behind again as you don't have reverse power to speed back up to the other ship.

How does economics play a part in ships moving between jump point and worlds? You can't figure that out? A ship can only carry so much weight. In order to move more product or equipment, people tend to remove and go with inferior equipment on their ships, such as some removing some or all the weapons on the ship. They use that weight to carry more cargo. Or by a lesser grade structure or armor and they are not expecting to have to push the ship to it's limit. This is standard economics today, and won't change in the future. Even military ships aren't as well maintained as they should be. Hence saving money.

Not thinking about how the game works? Those computers doing the calculations are NOT laptops but MULTI TON systems. If they were simply laptops, then you could install a few extra to gain better targeting on firing solutions. A targeting computer that is extra is 1 ton for every 5 tons of weapons that use it. 1 ton. Not 20 pounds.

The to hit numbers is what slows down the game. The shorter ranges is what causes more issues. That is not saying this isn't forced from the objects on the field, that rarely give you distance with a good line of sight. Realistically, the only time you should get into physical combat is if you are ambushed or out of weapons. Guided weapons can hit targets that you can't see, yet can detect. This is removed from the game to make it more fun, as stumping on each other with physical attacks.
ghostrider
03/11/21 06:54 PM
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What is the point of a navy? You really have to ask that?
The navy is there to try and stop the enemy from landing on your world as best you can. If you don't understand this, then just give up, as the enemy will almost always stomp on you. Plus this also means that you don't get to attack the enemy at their homes, and you can't even get into another system. Why I have to even say this is beyond understanding at this moment.

The example of the game is the real way things would go down in space. It was horrible to even try to play.

The jump detection thing is retconned into the game as they did NOT have such things in the earlier game to prevent worlds from sudden invasions. First off, you would need to be the ONLY target in the system to even begin with the example you have started. Having something at the jump points or even pirate points to make sure the ships are not just moving thru the system to get to another one. Then comes the fun part.
Do you think the enemy is soooo stupid as to not plot a curved course to their destination that will avoid any direct lines to the target? Only one encounter would stop the enemy from doing so again. And it does not have to be of a major speed either. Hell, the idea of mining the direct path would be something an invader would do in order to catch you trying that tactic. This is dangerous, as trying to remove such debris so commercial vessels don't get destroyed is a problem.

Why waste the money on destroying a dropship? You can do so with something far less expensive. There are things you can load up and destroy the world without wasting the dropship. Long range shuttles can be used as well as just dropping normal bombs with the materials from fighters would do the trick. Also, the fighter way would make it so you can limit the destruction, so you can take over anything you want to, providing the enemy doesn't just camp out in the target. Then you might have to destroy it.
Briarthorne
03/11/21 08:26 PM
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Hi Ghostrider, I remember Mantis... A game that painfully introduced us to the concept that actual space combat isn't even close to what we were expecting.

Your debate with Requiem is a bit of asymmetrical warfare.
You remind me of someone from the old Star Destroyer BBS, and as much as I want to participate in this debate you have nailed all the points.
Requiem
03/12/21 12:36 AM
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Your moving at 700,000Km/h and you are going to flip the ship – consider centre of mass to centre of thrust - especially when it is off centre.

Consider newtons 2nd law the net external force to the ship

Also consider harmonics along the hull of the ship

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Not sure why you think a jumpship would be moving quickly to avoid a fight, as they are more likely to jump out if they have a charge.



Dropships !

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Once a ship flipped you would gain on it,



And if you hit a ship attempting to complete roll then the energy forced on hull will send the ship into a massive spin whilst moving at 700,000Km/h

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A ship can only carry so much weight.



How much nuclear isotopes are required to permanently poison an atmosphere upon a drop-ship striking the surface – especially when during the Jihad only a few nukes were used to kill off entire planets !

This is how economy of scale comes into it - with 100 drop-ships all packed to gills can quite littery kill off any House’s main C-in-C world and military …. If you use the same tactic Hanse Davion used you could quite literally do it in a single day if you use non populated jump ponts when travelling between worlds to your destination.

So how much would this cost compared to the cost of an entire army?

Quote:
A targeting computer that is extra is 1 ton for every 5 tons of weapons that use it



And once again this is where the game falls over where most computers are getting smaller with larger computing output – what we have here are massive computers thus their ability to compute would be on par with super computers within governments and large organizations.

So why does a a simple targeting computer need to be this massive – is there a radar unit attached or something else that was never discussed?


Quote:
Do you think the enemy is soooo stupid as to not plot a curved course to their destination



Problem is yesterday – they could only travel in a straight line and today they can complete course corrections at 700,000km/h

Please chose one and stick with it – either they can manoeuvre at high speeds or they can’t which is it?

Quote:
What is the point of a navy? You really have to ask that?
The navy is there to try and stop the enemy from landing on your world as best you can.



Please advise – if I shoot off an unmanned drone drop-ship packed with massive amounts of nuclear material within the hold - it can reach a velocity of 700,000Km/h in transit – it does not slow down or brake or flip it is sent on a one way mission to strike the planet at max velocity and in so poisoning the atmosphere killing everything on-world.

Which naval weapon is able to strike the drop-ship travelling at 700,000Km/h prior to striking the planet when the range of your weapons is only about 1,000km? this gives you how many seconds to come within range, detect and fire – and hit it?

So how good is the navy now?

So can I have energy shields around all my planets now?

Quote:
Long range shuttles can be used as well



Can they reach the same speed as that of a drop-ship – and do they have the same cargo capacity as a drop-ship?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
CrayModerator
03/12/21 01:54 AM
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Quote:
How much nuclear isotopes are required to permanently poison an atmosphere



To permanently poison an atmosphere, you'd need an infinite amount of isotopes. BattleTech follows basic science details like radioactive decay, so any dangerous, short-lived isotopes would decay away in weeks, months, or a few years. Jihad Hotspot was careful to name the isotopes selected for salted weapons used in the Jihad. Terra, for example, had quite a few salted nuclear weapons detonated on it. Per JHS:Terra, this didn't kill everyone but rather inconvenienced agriculture and prompted a clean up program to get the fields clean faster than a few years that natural decay required.

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especially when during the Jihad only a few nukes were used to kill off entire planets !



The only true nuclear exterminations of planets in the Jihad involved thousands of nuclear weapons. I know, I wrote those bits.

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And once again this is where the game falls over where most computers are getting smaller with larger computing output – what we have here are massive computers



Targeting computers in BattleTech canonically include the massive servos required to aim and coordinate weapons. Obviously, the computers themselves are only a small part of that mass.


Quote:
Please advise – if I shoot off an unmanned drone drop-ship packed with massive amounts of nuclear material within the hold - it can reach a velocity of 700,000Km/h in transit – it does not slow down or brake or flip it is sent on a one way mission to strike the planet at max velocity and in so poisoning the atmosphere killing everything on-world.



Contrary to the fevered nightmares of anti-nuclear activists, nuclear waste isn't inclined to stay in the air. The millions of tons of fallout lofted by Cold War aboveground nuclear testing didn't linger inthe atmosphere to exterminate all human life. It quickly settled out of the air and became local problems, not global. And then faded quickly, which is why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were never evacuated, and why Fukushima is a thriving agricultural district today, and why the Trinity test site is now a tourist destination.

Slamming a fast DropShip into a planet's atmosphere with some thousands of tons of nuclear waste is an inconvenience for the survivors at ground zero and a rallying cry for the rest of the planet to repel the invaders.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Requiem
03/12/21 03:10 AM
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Quote:
To permanently poison an atmosphere, you'd need an infinite amount of isotopes.



Infinite is a very strong word …..

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Circinus

To ensure the destruction of The Master and any remaining senior members of the Word of Blake the Regulan flotilla spent several days subjecting Circinus to a systematic nuclear bombardment, using cobalt-laced weapons to ensure the highest possible level of destruction and ultimately the complete sterilization of Circinus.

So, what happens if the ship and its entire cargo bay is one huge cobalt bomb, where upon striking the world causes a massive detonation?

There is a point where the number of bombs utilized to destroy Circinus is equal to the amount within the cargo etc. - and if so which ships or ships - Hercules – just cargo alone – 1,381 tons or will it take two ? massive cobalt bombs?

Either way the planet and everything on it will have a problem ….

Fukushima: 10 years after Nuclear Disaster – US Today Show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdwGshdfBOU

Ghost town - Where only animals live today – still abandoned …..

Also …. How may ships did it take Circinus (as the report only had a few ships as seen by the only witness) and how many nukes and where were they made and by whom and how long did it take to make all of them and where did the technology come from to enable these weapons to be built and were did the raw materials come from and which mining company dug them up and processed them and on which planet?

No matter how you look at it this tactic utilizing the correct payload will cause massive problems – question utilizing an antimatter weapon (theoretically possible) – would it be able to be manufactured en mass …?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
03/12/21 03:19 AM
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As with the Viper issue in BSG, the ship itself can flip in any direction it wants. The stress comes from inertia once you fire the engines to change direction. The lack of friction in space allows even aerodynes to do this.
As for a curved route to a world, no one said it had to be moving at full speed. Not sure why this had to be said. And there are a few stories in the game where the invaders did not head directly in or out. The Black Thorns had this in it as well as one of the fights for Defiance as well. They came in slow to avoid detection.

The rotation may well be done in hours, not the instantaneous flip most think of. I really don't know that part. I just know you can do so, maybe with something of just lessening one side of the thrust for an instant, then reigniting it when you are flipped. It might also be the thrust only on the side that the ship came from.

The issue Cray brought up with the targeting computers is a bit flawed. If the weight contains servos and such to help aim, then the system would have to be where the weapon is at, IE an arm mounted weapon would have to have the TC in that arm. But again, this illogical concept shows flaws in the design. Possible to have it, but not logical in physics.
Also, if it controls multiple weapons such as 5 mls, or 10 mgs, each one has to have their own servos attached to them.

With firing off the unmanned dropship, angle of descent plays a huge part on weither the ship enters the atmosphere or bounces off. Straight in, would probably destroy the ship before it got far. It is possible to burn up the isotopes before they can spread in the atmosphere. To shallow of a descent and you head back into space. Cray has more information about the amount needed to destroy a world, so will refer to his post for that one.

Size is a factor with your example. Finding something the size of a small car verse something the size of even the smallest dropship is a far different affair. Not saying Battletech sensors will be completely reliable, but the dropship is more likely to be found.
Circumstances come into play with this as well. Barring the above concept of the ship blowing up before it gets that far into the atmosphere, it would come down to if anything was in the area before the ship got within range. Capital weapons being the only thing that might stop it before it hits. Normal weapons wouldn't do it.

Without pulling anything, the Leopard dropship has a total of 5 tons of cargo. The shuttle can haul more.

Briarthorne. I have never been on the Star Destroyers BBS. I try to keep things to the facts, but I don't always succeed. I also fail at keeping it civil at times. The only way to bring up facts is by using the game mechanics, but real life situations do have some bearing in this. As stated before, the BMR rule set is the last one I got, so I don't know exactly what was changed or added. It is ironic that something over 20 year old still has an impact now.
ghostrider
03/12/21 03:24 AM
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As I posted about the same time as you did, I have to add in some more.

One bomb does NOT equal multiple bombs spread across a world. Your one impact site could well not spread to all corners of a world. This is not saying you won't do damage, but it would be more localized.

Also the huge explosion may well work against you. If powerful enough, you could end up sending the very isotopes off world. Also, the last post about burning up the isotopes is also possible.
Reiter
03/12/21 03:50 AM
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Quote:
tl;dr - interception in space is not going to happen, some of the better sci-fi I read which uses basic physics on fuel burned like the BT universe, you got 2 shots...one on approach to catch up and a second just as you pass it; only a fraction of a second. Simply put, you can't catch up, maintain speed, or intercept a target dropship which can just futz with its engines to reduce speed which the fighters can't control or counter momentum fast enough.



Strategic Operations offered "high speed closing engagements" for interceptions near a planet. It summarizes how battles that basically occur in milliseconds plays out, giving players a simplified, single chance to stop invaders.

The high speed closing engagement rules address several oddities of BT's aerospace combat:

BattleTech sensors are mostly quite short-ranged. Drive plume sensors only work at tens of millions of kilometers, and radar and infrared are even short-ranged. This means you're NOT going to track enemies through the depths of interplanetary space, such as between a jump point and target planet. Defenders on or near a planet will only see invaders on final approach.

Further, weapons are short ranged. Most capital weapons cannot fire at more than 900 kilometers range.

The flip side to this is that interceptions become somewhat possible because the invaders are going to a small volume of space (a planet) and the defenders are waiting for them. The first steps of High Speed Closing Engagements are for defenders to abstractly maneuver into the path of the approaching invaders, while the invaders may try to dodge. This pits thrust points versus thrust points, and is basically a game of Pong - the defenders try to move their "paddle" into the path of the enemy, who tries to dodge sideways (or not - maybe they want the fight).

If one side succeeds in forcing the engagement, then there's a preliminary firing phase that can happen at very long range (capital missiles), then the "meeting engagement" that plays out in milliseconds, and a possible volley of "chaser" fire (stern weapons) after the two groups pass.

High Speed Closing Engagements does provide a multiplier for ballistic and missile weapon damage based on speed, far short of your example of the iron nugget hitting a ship. It comments, however:

"Realistically, the damage might be increased by a great
deal more than quadrupling (especially if anyone starts citing
kinetic energy equations), but since it would be awkward for
a battleship to be destroyed by a machine gun, a simple linear
increase was selected for playability.

Players who want more realism from Units crossing each
other at substantial percentages of light-speed (as might happen
mid-transit in systems with large stars) are encouraged
to resolve combat by dropping record sheets into cross-cut
shredders simultaneously. The record sheet that is shredded
the slowest wins the engagement though, obviously, it is destroyed
in the process."


But, ultimately, you're unlikely to intercept BattleTech ships in the middle of a star system or transit from a jump point. The ships simply can't be seen, never mind the thrust requirements for interception. Interceptions can occur in smaller, lower velocity situations where maneuvering is constrained: at final approach to a planet, or close to a jump point.



Edited by Cray (03/12/21 10:28 AM)
Requiem
03/12/21 04:58 AM
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Quote:
The lack of friction in space allows even aerodynes to do this.



As stated previously it is a complete misnomer that there is no friction is space.

Travelling at advanced speeds will incur friction (interstellar medium) also rolling a ship, even over hours, will incur some stress and strain and may even cause harmonics along the hull of the ship.

However for argument sake if I agree that within the game the ships are allowed to flip and at the same time reduce their speed – then why can’t aerospace fighters do the same thing?

Also I would also like to ask why everyone says the trailing ship will just over shot the ship it is per-suing ?

Considering that the ship has a massive navi computer – why can’t it make micro adjustments to its velocity - whist reading its advanced detection systems at the same time - as it proceeds and also to its trajectory so that it can achieve relative velocity and relative trajectory? So that it is virtually sitting behind the fleeing craft – also if you use laser weapons (movement at the speed of light – and why you should not have a projectile cannon on a star-ship to begin with) you will inflict damage on the ship you are after if in range – also what happens when you inflict damage to a ships propulsion system (killing a few of the trajectory nozzles for example when travelling at 700,000km/h? you will cause the ship to flip end over end in an uncontrolled medium when you consider Newtons Laws and considering centre of mass and centre of thrust that is until you can slow down and once more get control of the ship.

Everyone seems to believe that only the worst can occur 100% of the time - that there is no way for the ships to come into relative proximity – however all this is a massive mathematical problem for the navi to work out whist making micro adjustments to its own ship – it is after all just an AI logic problem to be solved by the computer after all. Thus the whole exercise revolves around which navi computer is superior and who does have the highest velocity in space ….

Also there is an energy field on the front of the craft - https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20150809-how-fast-could-humans-travel-safely-through-space (as noted above) otherwise travelling at these speeds would be impossible due to the interstellar medium.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
CrayModerator
03/12/21 10:06 AM
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Quote:
However for argument sake if I agree that within the game the ships are allowed to flip and at the same time reduce their speed – then why can’t aerospace fighters do the same thing?



??? That is exactly how aerospace movement works using AT2R and Strategic Operations' vector-based movement. Flip-and-brake is standard for any ship, including aerospace fighters.

Requiem, you're doing that thing again where you make up unsupported accusations against the game and then treat them as facts in your discussion.

Quote:
Travelling at advanced speeds will incur friction (interstellar medium) also rolling a ship, even over hours, will incur some stress and strain and may even cause harmonics along the hull of the ship.



The stress of rolling a ship depends on how many Gs you put on it. Remember the game rules and stats: you only make structural integrity checks if you exceed the SI of the vessel, and 2 thrust points equals 1G. For example, a DropShip with SI 20 isn't significantly stressed until it accelerates or flips at more than 10Gs. Most DropShips and WarShips are incapable of maneuvering hard enough to stress their frames.

Quote:
Quote:
The lack of friction in space allows even aerodynes to do this.



As stated previously it is a complete misnomer that there is no friction is space.



Yes, but the only friction/heating you encounter is at significant fractions of light speed. The wattages per square meter from colliding with gas and dust during high velocity flight can be found here. For comparison, sunlight is 1400 watts per square meter at Earth orbit. This is outside the velocity of most BattleTech sublight flights.
https://www.orionsarm.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4803&pid=60484#pid60484

Hence BT aerodynes often use a belly-mounted transit drive to fly dorsal-side up (outside of combat) and provide simulated gravity without two deck orientations. There are numerous BT publications that describe this, starting with "DropShips & JumpShips" and continuing through the current Strategic Operations. There's no significant drag in interplanetary space at BattleTech's transit speeds, so orientations don't need to be aerodynamic.


Edited by Cray (03/12/21 10:09 AM)
Requiem
03/12/21 01:28 PM
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question - how am I supposed to understand if I do not have AT2R and Strategic Operations?

Thus unsupported accusations are just enquires by myself to understand issue at hand - as all the information presented so far suggests otherwise and I just do not understand.

Is there a site on sara that I can read where your rules?

also from my point of view - am I allowed to discuss my thoughts as to the creation of new house rules?

as I have given this situtaion a lot of thought and I have come to the conclusion that by allowing the navi comp - together with a mssive detection equipment with a vast range - to take over a drop-ship / war-ship in order to run down another would manke for an interesting scenario if you can work out how long it takes for a ship to achieve max velocity (0- 100,000km/h in 2.1 sec or 2.1 days) - you could also have battles at max thust out in the depths of space - use fighters at max thrust and this situtaion could also be used to describe how pirates could hunt down commercial dropships by engaging them in system, at max thrust - causing their prey to go out of control they then swoop in - blow the air locks and board the ship ...

also why do ships only have short ranged sensors when, as discussed previously, one small rock at 700,000km/h would put a hole completely through your ship if it does not have some kind of shield or an I to assume for game scenario that they do not exist (where in reality they do)? any space ship given the vast distaces required must by their very nature alone have vast detection equipment - especially if you are prospecting for new planets and new resources - otherwise every ship will need a geologist to go down to the planet to investigate rock formations - sorry but from a science fiction standpoint I cannot wrap my head around this.

I guess this is why I need to create my own rule(s) so that it just makes sense (from my point of view).

This is why I have been toying with the concept of Mp-l (land and VTOL craft); Mp-a (aerospace fighters) and Mp-s (space craft) - then having multiple maps - one for divisional location (scale into the hundreds of km) - one for close quarter combat (normal hex sheet) - one for aerospace fighters in atmosphere ( however this limits the idea of altitude) and one for space battles (that enable ships to engae at high velocity anywhere in system) - then using a plastic circle to work out specific ranges of radar / Ecm - Missle batteries that have ranges in the hundreds of km etc etc - as is most fighters today have a radar range fron over 120km and at least half that to the rear and the concept of supersonic flight .... etc

The idea that ships (dropships) can move at such extreme velocities and can be used as weapons platforms - as fire ships - is a reality. The questin then is can it be used for mass planetary devistation or even just local - removing an entire city? can the ship include an ejection pod that could contain who knows what or a person for spy work - very clandestine operations manner of getting on planet ..... the use of which could be interesting form any game play idea.

also the site posted above for me to look at ......

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Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem
03/12/21 01:42 PM
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from a science fiction standpoint I cannot wrap my head around this.

There are wonders created by the Department of Mega Engineering - and yet I cant get a decent radar system for my Mech, fighter or ship?

sorry but I cant understand this shouldnt there be a massively scientific universe with massive number of gadgets ets even during the Star League era?

for the most part 21st Century tech is far more advanced than that of even the Star League from many points of view - so why not create a universe that is exactly this - massive technology - massive ranges - massive damage - massive army on every side - also massive ships as stated previously a mass migration to the stars using the ships as is would require millions of them -and in a very short period of time - so where were they all buit and where did the resources come from to build them?

I love the idea of the Mechs etc but sorry I need to tinker with everything else to make it somewhere I would like to call a science fiction home for mass technology - even if it was only during the star league era - but I cannot wrap my mind aound a universe wide perge of information - it cannot be done!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
03/12/21 03:56 PM
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Without a gravity field, objects in space don't slow down. Friction would cause them to. Objects in space is not the same thing.
I don't remember seeing anyone say fighters could not flip in space. I did say that they can flip facing any direction, but they can no stop quickly while facing the direction they are flying. No reverse thrust of any great power.
And changing directions means stress on the ships structure. Stress is not necessarily the end of the ship. It is turning that provides the main stress on a ship outside of combat.

I said you would overshoot a ship. The fact that you have to flip the ship back over to provide thrust in the opposite direction to slow down is why you would. No retro thrusters powerful enough to slow the ship down quick enough. Maneuvering thrusters don't provide much thrust, so time is the issue.

Define micro adjustments. Is that 10 meters? .000001 meters? Changing speeds from say 20,000 kph to 3,000 kph? Ratio changes what is considered micro adjustments, where the ships thrusters are a set amount. I don't know the exact amount, but they are not there to shove the ship to one side like you can do in a race car. Docking procedures is a large reason why the maneuvering thrusters exists. Altering the facing of the ship so the main engines can be used is another.

The parameter set is the limit of closing the gap was two ships of same speed. If you have a faster ship, you can close more easily, though you will have to do a lot of flipping to keep the distance you want. Focus on what is written, not what you think is there. Comprehensive reading requires knowing what is said.

So the person that has stated time and again, doesn't have the AT2 or Ops understand a lot of reality, but the researcher doesn't? Most of the game does have some basis in reality. The game messes with things to make it playable and keep it moving most of the time. I don't agree with it at times, but that isn't something that will stop me from playing it.

The issue is you continue to argue canon is wrong because your view is the only thing that can exist. That has been mentioned time and time again.
As I stated before, I do not disagree with some of the concepts. I do bring up in game issues and that seems to be considered a personal attack on things. Then comes the unsupported concepts. I am not saying I am correct on everything. If I was better at getting a point across, it might not be so bad.
You want to argue canon is wrong, then keep to canon facts.
If you want a ship to be able to reverse main thrust, then build a ship that has some thrusters facing forward. I don't know if the game can handle something like this, but logically applying some weight to set it up shouldn't be that difficult.
ghostrider
03/12/21 04:20 PM
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Humans have intuition, while comps can cover things that are programmed into it. You want to exceed safety limits then overriding the computers programming is required. The comp is more likely to be able to do a few things most human pilots can't. The issue is the game does not have any sort of ability to override such safety features outside of the mechs override for fusion core shut down.
Is flank speed max for a unit? I wouldn't think so. Otherwise, you would be riding the engines at max operations for long periods of time. The game doesn't have this concept so it isn't addressed. Much like redlining a normal car engine. You stop when it is at maximum safety. You can push it beyond, but it is almost certain to fail with bad results.

The thrust accelerates a ship at a specific speed per second. Use that to figure out 'max' speed. In BT, the game does not have an absolute maximum speed. Fuel reserves is about it, as you can keep accelerating as max power. This defies normal physics, but it is how the game sets it up.
In the game, you can go from 0 speed on up to 12 in a single turn with an achilles. Then the next round, 12 to 24 using 12 thrust. Then 36 with another 12 added. Not sure the distances of each thrust point, as they changed it from the book I have. But remember. Each space round is a minute, unless they changed that. So 6 ground rounds is 1 space round. Unless they changed that as well.

Ships do run into things every so often. That is part of maintenance. Not sure where you got 700,000 kph from, but I am going to assume that is normal speed as you approach the flip over point, but you are correct in assuming the game does not really deal with possible debris on a standard run thru a system. Special scenarios can be done, such as flying thru an asteroid field, but for the most part, ships don't deal with debris often. Even combat doesn't suggest that the chunk of armor blown off another ship can hurt you as you fly into it. Slows down the game.

And now you are stating what is known. The game is not as futuristic as it could be. ICBMs existed before the game started. ABMs existed before the game started. But in order to get your physical stomping mechs into range, this had to be discarded. A simple ICBM non nuke, should be able to take out a dropship with ease. So say 10mil c-bills taking out an Overlord with full crew being over 200 mil c-bills. And stops the ground fight from happening. So logic is left out of the game.

The view of a farmer using oxen to pull a plow in a field while a Battlemech strolls by shows the reality of the game. A lot is left out to make it a ground game. Reality would be that fleets of star craft would be required to prevent landings, and allow invasions of the enemy's worlds. As said, this is a ground game. Star Wars is more of the fleet attack/defense game but even they have ground units, as ships can not really hold a world unless the rely on off world items.
Destroying a world is easier then invading and holding it. The nuke concept will always come up with talking about wiping out worlds. But that does you no good if you need the resources.

Again. You want to argue canon is wrong, then use canon facts.
Sensors that work, destroys the ability to sneak attack a world. Raids becomes a thing of the past.
Space defenses that work, destroys the ability to invade a world without large amounts of attackers to overwhelm the defenses. Which comes down to how much are you willing to commit to holding the line? Worlds would be using their own family to pull the plow if you really had the space defenses to stop invasions. Almost everything to everything made in the world would be going to such a defense. The game has it's own physics and reasons. If you want to understand it, you need to remove all other games physics that counter BT.

Maybe this might help. D&D has it's own mechanics. You ignore most reality to play it. You do not say that someone can pull items out of thin air in a normal city building game. Yet spells and items allow you to do so. BT has to be thought in the same way. Not ideal, but it is made that way.


Edited by ghostrider (03/12/21 04:23 PM)
CrayModerator
03/12/21 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Ships do run into things every so often. That is part of maintenance. Not sure where you got 700,000 kph from, but I am going to assume that is normal speed as you approach the flip over point,




A typical 1-week transit from jump point to planet will see a flip over velocity of 3 million meters per second after 3.5 days at 1G acceleration, or about 1% of light-speed. That's 10.7 million kilometers per hour.

Quote:
but you are correct in assuming the game does not really deal with possible debris on a standard run thru a system.



Strategic Operations mentions anti-debris systems.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
03/12/21 10:54 PM
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The Invader jumpship from the old dropship and jump ship book talks about the lasers being used for anti asteroid duty. As for Strategic Operations, I don't have that book, so never read thru it. How deep does it get into dealing with things in flight paths or just normal debris?
Does it give damage and effects if you hit something and at what speed?
Or is it just to deal with things someone put in the path of your invasion fleet, and leave it at that point?

It is good to know the speed is something that isn't just pulled out of thin air. Never did the math, so was ignorant of it.
I am going to assume that is just 1g thrust. It would make sense as that is the most common thrust used in the game.
Requiem
03/13/21 01:20 AM
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Quote:
No reverse thrust of any great power.



Engineering - Thermodynamics – and the Harrier jet.

Why would any engineer create a space vessel whereby they need to ‘flip’ in order to change direction?

Quote:
I said you would overshoot a ship.



Again why? An advanced navi computer and an advanced active probe whereby ships have thrusters over the hull and with thermodynamics you can direct thrust to any set of thrusters over the hull of the ship - which will enable any space vessel to move in any direction and with the principle of relative velocity any ship (Jump / Drop / War ship) built with this principle in mind will be far more deadly than anything created – as they will not need to flip to change direction they can change direction and utilize their batteries as a ship should.

Micro adjustments are any time frame the navi computer says they are in order to move the ship in any direction required.

So from now on all my “Home Rule Ships” will be built with this in mind thus giving them the ability to move in any set of three dimensional movements. As I disagree completely with this principle of flipping and not being able to strike whist at hyper velocity –

Question what happens when you take the engine from a bug-eye put it in a massive nuclear weapon - give it an A.I. so that it can use an advanced navi computer / active probe to find its target? Thus turning the weapon into a massive cruise missile – what you now have is weapon that can-not be stopped and will obliterate any target – be it warship, space station or city.
Given pre-Star League era Technology this missile should be able to be constructed as it is just utilizing existing tech by ships used in the exodus to expand mankind to the stars.

Quote:
The issue is you continue to argue canon is wrong because your view is the only thing that can exist. That has been mentioned time and time again.



The problem is am I allowed to even make a query? Or is any query seen as heresy against canon law? – thus am I free to be allowed freedom of speech or freedom of thought? Or am I only allowed to do is accept the will of others imposing the rule that only Canon history and Canon rules are allowed?

Quote:
The view of a farmer using oxen to pull a plough in a field while a Battlemech strolls by shows the reality of the game.



When and where and for how long? – if you are in the Star League era - highly unlikely - and even by 3025 this concept is incredibly difficult to consider and as technology increases how long until this is removed for good on all planets …

Quote:
As said, this is a ground game.



Then find a way to remove all aerospace / VTOL and all navy …. Then create a game where only Mechs and power armour exist ….

Problem is the game this is not just a ground game – it is a science fiction war involving ALL aspects of the military and as such ALL weapons systems must be included – and they must also include all velocities all active probes all weapons of normal ranges missiles in hundreds of km radar in the hundreds of km

So logic is left out of the game …..?

Or can it be brought back into the game? Can individuals create their own home rules to bring everything back into the game and bring into the game advanced science fiction ? set it in the most advanced era (Star League) and let it run?

This is why I am creating my own realms – new DC – new Outwolds Alliance and New Canoupus so far – with massive beta testing rules to see what does and does not work (such as the idea of altitude on an aerospace fighter when the map is on on the table).

Quote:
The nuke concept will always come up with talking about wiping out worlds. But that does you no good if you need the resources.



Short lived 100% fatal bio-weapon that is targeted at killing all human life – if it can survive the crash or can be ejected from the craft just prior to the cash you now have a means of winning the war – and is achievable given the technology within the game.

Quote:
Sensors that work, destroys the ability to sneak attack a world.



If sensors work then why don’t ECMs work at the same time? Raids are still available ….

Quote:
Space defences that work, destroys the ability to invade a world without large amounts of attackers to overwhelm the defences.



Problem is – if the sword works then so too does the shield – if you can use a super weapon to attack the world then there too must be a super way to defend the world.

And there will be all business and societies upon every world – universities, hospitals, manufacturing centres –everything we have now will be on every world and more – this is the true reality of space colonization – every world will be near to 100% self sufficient with exception of only those items that you would see on highly industrialized or highly agricultural worlds – this is the reality I see – I cannot rationalize the universe as is – it just does not make any sense – and this is why I am rebuilding the universe one sate at a time and the rules to create a new universe …. Does everything within an economy go to the military now? Same in the future GDP is assigned to each segment ….. just on a grander scale ….

This is the point D&D and BattleTech can have similar mechanics – all it takes is a lot of work to re-write the history, the Houses and the rules to enable individuals to create their own realm …. And this is what I am doing taking the existing Battletech universe and creating my own universe – I am going to continue beta testing everything until I am satisfied with my approximation of a scientific society ….. and from time to time I may place questions up or provide new realms ……

Case in point –

LAM–A2 Invader
(Multirole – Special Mission)
Mass 50,000kg
MP
Mech 86.4km/h … Mp-land 9
Jump (minimum) 90m … Mp 9 (maximum) – flight mode
Fighter 1,440km/h … Mp-land 144 Mp-aerospace 29
Altitude (max) 20km
Radar search range – fighter size target, head-on position – 200Km (4,000hexes)
Radar search range – fighter size target, tail-on position – 100Km (2,000hexes)
Ascent Booster (max.) 36,000km/h Mp-booster 720
Zero-G (max.) 1,440,000km/h Mp-space 29
Armament - ER Lg Laser, Sm Pulse Laser, ECM, SAP, Bomb Bay (Capacity: 2.5 tons max – 12 missile slots max)

Nt. Hex size is vastly different – land – aerospace – space due to velocity.
Nt. SAP – Space Active probe – allows for normal ground radar to be increased by a factor of 4 whist in space only (does not work on land – the system cannot comprehend all the information and crashes requiring a re-boot.)

Missile Ammo:
Air-to-Air Missile – 1 missile slot ¬– (Mass: 200kg – Range: 22 km (- hexes) – Speed MP: 4,940km/h Mp-a 99 – Warhead: High Explosive Penetrating (5))
Air-to-Air Missile – 2 missile slots ¬– (Mass: 400kg – Range: 44 km (- hexes) – Speed MP: 4,940km/h Mp-a 99 – Warhead: High Explosive Penetrating (10))
Anti-Star-Ship Missile – 5 missile slots ¬– (Mass: 1,000kg – Range: 200km (- hexes) – Zero-G (max.): 864,360km/h – Mp-s 17 Warhead: Capital Explosive Penetrating 5 (Capital) 50 (Standard))
Anti-Star-Ship Missile – 10 missile slots ¬– (Mass: 2,000kg – Range: 200km (- hexes) – Zero-G (max.): 864,360km/h – Mp-s 17 Warhead: Capital Explosive Penetrating 10 (Capital) 100 (Standard))

Guidance Systems:
- Active radar homing
- Semi-active radar homing
- Infrared homing

Quote:
Strategic Operations mentions anti-debris systems.



And if you do not have this book?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
03/13/21 03:56 AM
66.74.60.165

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Almost every ship in sci fi should have to turn the ship and use the rear thrusters as they don't have large or enough thrusters to do otherwise. The show the Expanse brings out that point very well. Look at the ship designs for all the big and small space ships. Large engines in the back, nothing in the front, and doesn't look like much on the sides.
Also, what sort of course correction did the lunar lander use? Oh yeah. Turn the ship and use the only engines it had in the rear. So I would think necessity causes this.
The harrier only diverts power to the down position. The main engine points towards the back. And it does so at the cost of a lot of weight.

Again, you do not understand the GAMES principle of movement. You are arguing something that is outside of the game to say the game is wrong. We all know the game has major flaws in it, but keeping to the game mechanics, is why I say you would over shoot. Changing speed is not fast in the game. As the lack of significant thrust in any direction besides forward is why the ship has to rotate to turn or slow. And you can only spend so much thrust to affect the ship. your 700,000 kph is affects by what per turn? 4/6 ship can only slow down as much as the 6 thrust can do.
The game removes a lot of things that work, in order to keep it a ground game. You want to fix that, then BT is not the game for you. I hate the fact that you can't really set up a realistic defense, but if you want to play the game, you have to do just that.

Maybe phrasing the questions as questions, not saying things are wrong and when responses explain what is going on, don't say it is absolutely wrong because it doesn't fit your concept of it.

Tech and availability as well as affordability isn't fairly distributed to all. Why is it that in the U.S, there are cars all over the place, but in some countries only the government has those vehicles? Or the fact that a lot of countries don't even have running water standard? Being part of the SL does NOT automatically mean you have the ability, much less the access to build a mech in your front yard. Some world keep low tech as that is all the can afford.
Why do you think backwater worlds exist? They did so in the SL era as well as 3025.

The changes proposed to the game completely changes it so you are no longer playing BT. Not sure why this is such an issue comprehending. Damn, this sounds like a broken record. This is not a proposal to give an alternative, but to change it from what it really is.

The changes that have happened since the game first came out, has shown logic just doesn't work right. The jump detection was not in the original game. Then when Terra was being attacked by the Dragoons, the CLAN ECM didn't stop the SDS from working perfectly.

Problem is – if the sword works then so too does the shield – if you can use a super weapon to attack the world then there too must be a super way to defend the world.
This concept is false. Must have a way to defeat the super weapon does not happen as much as you would like. For the most part, the death star showing up and destroying a world can't be defended. The weak point was not known to anyone, so using what ever little forces you had to attack it and the fleet that accompanies it, would not stop it. It did destroy the world that the plans were store on in Rogue One. An imperial world to boot. What sort of defense can stop the crap of destroying a sun? Oh yeah. It doesn't exist.

I cannot rationalize the universe as is
That statement is why people say you have it wrong for the game. There are multiple reasons why worlds can not be self sufficient. For an oppressive society, you will NEVER give a colony the chance to be self sufficient. You will force them to rely on you, even if it means the die when you can't get to them. The colony does what it can to negate this, but the fact remains, that you suppress all colonies the best you can. Otherwise you create a rival for your power.
It is the nature of human kind. The Terran Hegemony did just that. But the rich found a way to make money by helping the colonies get out from under the Terran government.

Speed and detection range is the problem with debris. Even if you have a full 10 seconds, it may not be enough to do anything. Flying is space, weapon systems tend to be powered down to avoid issues like a short firing off a weapon. Right now, NASA is having issues with space junk. Paint chips damaging the shuttle to the point where EVA is needed to fix things like the heat shield. They can't get any detection on that. Not everything is made of metal. And not everything can be found on radar.
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