Requiem
07/22/21 10:46 AM
1.158.209.145
|
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Rim_Worlds_Republic
It is arguable if House Amaris had prepared for a coup of the Star League for generations, the Rim Worlds Republic sat poised for just such an endeavour around 2750 (indicating the Rim Worlds maintained a vast Military Industrial Complex scattered throughout the Rim Worlds as well as the adjacent Periphery Worlds).
The Republic also maintained a sizeable army (despite Council Edict of 2650 – limiting the size of military forces that governments and private families could muster) with a gigantic reserve, a well educated / trained population, and a large defence industry.
As the point when Amaris went through with his coup … proclaiming himself First Lord of the Star League … ordering Aleksandr Kerensky to maintain operations (against his allies within the periphery) which Kerensky refused.
(At this stage it is evident that Stefan has eliminated any political allies he once had with the exception of one – Stefan’s regent Mohammed Selim)
It is also clear to everyone that Kerensky will invade the Rim Worlds Republic as a precursor to retaking the Terran Hegemony … (in my opinion – completely off the rails when it comes to tactics / strategies 101 …)
The Rim Worlds Republic invasion commences August, 2767 …
However as Archon Robert Steiner II, ever the pragmatist, was planning to occupy the Rim Worlds one way or another … what should have occurred – rather than occupying post invasion … he should have occupied pre-invasion ….
That is he should have sent in Loki agents to identify a local rim-worlds warlords and co-opt them into becoming a lords /ladies of the Lyran Commonwealths … whist developing a propaganda campaign against both Stefan Amaris and his fluky / regent Mohammed Selim … “ nobly plan to restore hope to a beleaguered people, victimized by a serial human rights abusing, terrorist-loving tyrant.”
(if you have a warped personality suggest reading the following however discretion is advised - https://warontherocks.com/2015/05/how-to-take-over-a-small-country-in-10-easy-steps/ this is where the quote comes from)
Then Stage a coup within the Rim Worlds Republic …. Remove anyone who is pro Stefan Amaris … put in the pro Lyran own puppet government … get the new accords signed amalgamate the entirety of the Rim Worlds into the Lyran Commonwealth … inform Kerensky that his SLDF are no longer required as the issue has been fixed … and if he get’s testy about the issue remind him of his image if and when Amaris has been removed … how will anyone consider him and this SLDF trustworthy to re-establish the Star League if he attacked a society who had surrendered … and how was he going to get any allies to attack Amaris if he attacked one of the States that sits on the Council … does he really want to start a war on two fronts at this stage?
My bet … he will be angry, but he has no real choice but to accept it as is … politicians can be the real enemy of many a military commander!
Thus prior to the First Succession War the Lyran Commonwealth now has a vastly superior military as well as a vastly superior military industrial complex …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Cray
07/22/21 10:17 PM
71.47.193.139
|
Quote:
It is also clear to everyone that Kerensky will invade the Rim Worlds Republic as a precursor to retaking the Terran Hegemony … (in my opinion – completely off the rails when it comes to tactics / strategies 101 …)
Completely off the rails?
As discussed at length in JHS:Terra's "Touring Terra" chapter, the Terran Hegemony took extensive steps to avoid the mistakes of the Terran Alliance when it came to being the metropole of an Empire. One of the key steps that the Hegemony took was to centralize the Star League's military production in itself, particularly on Terra. A related step was to fill the best and most elite units of the Star League Defense Forces (the Royal units) with exclusively Hegemony personnel. Finally, the Hegemony made dang sure that the best military technology did not reach the Houses.
The Amaris Coup took the entire SLDF industry base and logistics structure away from the SLDF.
The other Periphery states were in open revolt and even using nukes on SLDF forces during the pre-Coup Periphery Revolt. Plus, they didn't really have much industry because the Star League had spent 200 years forcing the Periphery to use Inner Sphere factories.
The Houses sat on their hands. They had every Hegemony noble house telling them Amaris was their man, and every Hegemony banker saying they were backing Amaris. Amaris even had a vote from the Hegemony public. The Houses weren't going to jump in on General Kerensky's side - he was arguably in revolt against the new Emperor Amaris. They were nice to Kerensky because he had the biggest military in human space, but they weren't going to jump on his side.
So where the heck is the SLDF going to get its ammo, spare parts, and new 'Mechs?
Answer: the Rim Worlds Republic.
That's not "off the rails," that's "The SLDF gets a supply base or it collapses in a couple of years and the Rim Worlds was the only choice." You made the case that the Rim Worlds had a substantial military-industrial complex.
It's worth remembering that the Rim Worlds Republic had another factor that made it attractive for the SLDF: its enormous expansion from 2590 to 2750 was fueled entirely by settlers from the Terran Hegemony. The Amarises had spent generations convincing the Terran Hegemony that it was the nice, docile part of the Periphery where Hegemony investments and Hegemony settlers were welcome. Stefan Amaris had a dual citizenship with the Hegemony. Most of the Hegemony settlers basically ignored the central Rim Worlds government and considered themselves part of the Hegemony except in name.
At the start of the Star League Civil War, the Rim Worlds had a relationship with the Hegemony akin to pre-WW2 Austria and Germany - they were considered by their people to be virtually one nation. As mentioned in JHS:Terra, to the people of the Hegemony, Amaris's ascent was no different than, say, a certain Austrian becoming Germany's chancellor.
The flip side, though, was that the Rim Worlds Republic was heavily populated with Hegemony immigrants and their first generation descendants. They were ideal recruits to help fill the SLDF's Royal units because a) they considered themselves part of the Hegemony, and b) they were outraged at Amaris's seizure of power.
Quote:
My bet … he will be angry, but he has no real choice but to accept it as is
The Hegemony settlers who make up most of the population of the Rim Worlds and occupy most of its worlds aren't going to back this Lyran coup, so the Lyrans are in a bad position to begin with. The Rim Worlds had few forces left in its territory because they had all moved into the Hegemony, so a Lyran-backed warlord isn't going to be able to muster any more resistance to the SLDF than in canon.
Meanwhile, Kerensky has no other real option. He needs the Rim Worlds' industrial base. For the moment, he has the biggest military in human space. He can't crack the Hegemony's defenses unsupported, but he could certainly tear through the Lyrans like they were tissue paper.
Please, take a while to read "Touring: Terra", Masters & Minions, and definitely Liberation of Terra I & II. Your premise and interpretation about why the SLDF took the Rim Worlds is incorrect.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Requiem
07/23/21 12:38 AM
1.158.209.145
|
Quote:
The Amaris Coup took the entire SLDF industry base and logistics structure away from the SLDF.
Napoleon once said … “yes I know he is a good general but is he lucky?”
What is being discussed here is time when it comes to warfare … knowing when to attack …
You have an enemy with access to a massive industrial and logistical structure the aim MUST be to remove this asap also in addition to this is the Cameron family … who’s situation is unknown … thus a rescue mission must be also be considered of extreme importance within the short term … then there is also the enemies command and control facility … Terra.
The PRIMARY target is NOT the RWR it is Terra and Amaris!!!
The SLDF has over 5000 warships and how many does the RWR have and how quickly can they build a new fleet?
This is the primary question here in a nut shell … how quickly, can you as the SLDF, assemble your fleets then organize a combined assault from all 5 houses simultaneously … overwhelm and destroy … whist at the same time send in an independent force to retake Terra? You do not need each Houses approval you just do it!
Quote:
The other Periphery states were in open revolt and even using nukes on SLDF forces during the pre-Coup Periphery Revolt.
And who used nukes more often than not in the history of warfare with periphery states during the reunification war?
Really all that is needed is an elastic retreat from the Periphery to deal with the PRIMARY Target Terra and Amaris.
Once you disengage from the Periphery will they continue the war or will they cease hostilities …. As shown in cannon once retreat was complete there was no further engagements … thus you are maximising your fighting force to engage the real threat … Amaris within the Terran Hegemony!
Quote:
every Hegemony banker saying they were backing Amaris.
At the end of a gun does not make this credible …
Quote:
Amaris even had a vote from the Hegemony public.
First what was the position for? Second how credible was the vote given that his people were the poll watches and counters of the vote?
So again this is not credible …
Quote:
The Houses weren't going to jump in on General Kerensky's side - he was arguably in revolt against the new Emperor Amaris.
This does not have any bearing on the issue at hand … just as our archon stated there was nothing in it for them … within the Terran Hegemony
Quote:
So where the heck is the SLDF going to get its ammo, spare parts, and new 'Mechs? Answer: the Rim Worlds Republic.
Sorry but can I laugh now? You have a massive war going on within the Periphery states and they do not have a massive quantity of logistics … also considering the massive number of bases spread out over the entire Inner Sphere … and they do not have logistics ?
All the logistics required for a massive initial push into the Terran Hegemony should be on hand … then once within the Hegemony you can retake facilities – hopefully undamaged or you can use orbital bombardment to obliterate the enemies ability to continue to wage war … WW2 Bombing over Germany as well as over Japan! And as a precursor to ‘amphibious’ a land invasion via dropships ….
The probability of taking a facility intact within the Republic is the same as taking a facity intact within the Hegemony ... so which facility is closer to the primary target of Terra and Ammaris and which facility will only delay the inevitable attack upon the Hegemony, and in so doing allow Amaris the time he needs to fortify his position and to build a massive military force to which will be used aganst the SLDF .... however, if the initial target was the Hegemony time is minimised ... his ability to establish a fortified position is minimised and his ability to manufacture a new army to which engage the SLDF is also minimised at the same time ... thus combat loss depetion report by attacking the Hegemony should be far lower than that of attacking the Republic first ...
Also this would have the benefit of maintaining the bulk of the SLDF post war ... he would have been in a better position to deal with the House Lords and to retain the Star League post Amaris War ... plus isn't this wahta a General is supposed to do ? ensure victory with the minimum amount of collateral damage to everyone ... this includes the enemey!!!!
As stated before this is completely off the Rails!!!!
As commander of the SLDF your main enemy is TIME … just ask Gen. John P Lucas, Anzio WW2 … Churchill was angry and furious, bewildered by the slow reaction … “I had hoped we were hurling a wildcat onto the shore, but all we got was a beached whale.”
And this is what Canon gave us a Gen Kerensky a massive beached whale … and in no way a wildcat …
The enemy is TIME … you allow Amaris to gain a foothold … you allow him time to utilize the massive military industrial capabilities of the Terran Hegemony for his own benefit the higher the overall death toll …. And this is exactly what happened … 95% of the entire SLDF was obliterated because Kerensky did not know what he was doing!
The Primary target is Terra and Amaris … the entire strategy should have been five massive initial strikes from each of the Houses SLDF operational Fleets … utilizing existing logistics whist utilizing a Blitzkrieg strategy incorporating massive orbital bombardments and massive fleet engagements as soon as possible to coordinate.
AS for the Rim Worlds ….
How many people would appreciate move up the ranks if you take out the top most rung of society the Amaris family? As for some this is the only way …
FEAR …. Of what Kerensky would do the Republic as to retaliation?
So how do you safeguard your nation from retaliation given the fact that everyone knows the SLDF has been using nukes like candy in the other periphery states and they would rather not be nuked off the map because Kerensky is a vindictive SOB who would order any massacre just to prove he is in command ….
For example the SLDF officer purges he ordered once he took command of the SLDF as well as what his forced did / or didn’t do during the CC / FS war …. As well as what his forces did during the rebellion within the Periphery so far …. And the fact that the highest rank he was in combat was Captain … thus in all reality he has absolutely no idea what he is doing!
So if the Republic became part of the Commonwealth they now have a very strong protector against Kerensky and the SLDF… thus their ability to survive any retaliation is now almost certain.
Also it is NOT the Republic’s population that needs to agree to this Coup … it is their nobility and Military Generals who can read the tea leaves and see that they are in a no win situation with the SLDF … however there is a political out with the Lyrans ….
There is also the point that if the SLDF wanted logistics the newly increased Lyran state would be more than happy to accept Kerensky’s IOU ….
Quote:
Please, take a while to read "Touring: Terra", Masters & Minions, and definitely Liberation of Terra I & II. Your premise and interpretation about why the SLDF took the Rim Worlds is incorrect.
In my opinion, as stated many times, Kerensky really did not know what he was doing … as proven by these books .. the Canon premise and interpretation about the entire tactical and strategy of the war is completely incorrect!
Robert Steiner was an opportunistic politician (Stalin) and if he thought for one second he could take the Rim Worlds whole in one piece with not one shot fired (Poland, etc) he would have done it in a heartbeat considering the massive long term economic and territorial advantage it would have provided … eg. Stalin at the end of WW2 – Yalta Conference and where Roosevelt lost the war to Stalin by trying to destroy Churchill’s UK economic Commonwealth block etc when it came to the Declaration of Liberated Europe … the people had no say in it the puppet government has the only say in the matter and they were in Stalin’s pocket!
Sorry but no I do not agree with the canon premises when it comes to these events, In my opinion I find this Alt universe forum to be more highly probability as to the events provided by Cannon.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/23/21 12:59 AM)
|
ghostrider
07/23/21 03:36 AM
45.51.181.83
|
Do you even understand logistics and warfare?
You say they should have attacked as soon as they could, but say they should not secure sources of ammunition and repair parts? The suggestion that they have millions of tons of munitions at their finger tips and can instantly move it all around?
Munition dumps are one of the primary targets for enemies to strike at. Even you stated this by saying to remove the enemies ability to fight, wins wars. What is the best way to cripple an enemy? You love WWII references, how about when the Germans had no fuel for their tanks? Did that make it easier for the Allies to beat them? The above responses would suggest it wouldn't.
And yet again, you would have an enemy in your backside without removing the power base in the RWR. Something that still makes me believe warfare is not something understood by the responses.
The bankers siding with Amaris looks like the same thing you suggested about the LC trying to get the warlords on their side. Amaris would have promised them things like bigger bonuses and such if they support him.
Again, you ignore the facts. The RWR has only a small token force, as most were in the TH. Taking factories in take in the RWR was easier, as most left behind were realizing they were had. As stated, more then a few in the RWR were against Amaris taking Terra. It is likely they would have turned over the factories with minimal resistance. Only sabotage would be the main way the factories would be destroyed. As you love to say, the SLDF had over 5000 ships. Do you think the RWR would withstand that for long? I know they were NOT in one large group as you seem to think.
And with that many ships, how quickly to you think they would run out of supplies without a fresh source? Supplies across the IS do no good when they are on the OTHER side of it. And food only lasts so long. Oh yeah. Soldiers are robots that don't need food and such. I forgot.
Might need to check your facts on the nukes. ALL combatants were using them. The SLDF started using them AFTER they were hit by the enemy with them. For most, they would see Kerensky as trying to stop the use of them, as the SLDF has always been the 'peacekeepers'.
The LC would not be able to withstand the SLDF, if they tried to protect or annex the RWR at this time. Not sure why you got it stuck in your head that they could. If the LC had annexed the RWR, they would NOT be happy to take the IOU of the SLDF. ALL the houses stayed out of the Amaris war. The LC would NOT have change their stance.
One point that is constantly missed is the fact that those in power, don't like to share it with anyone. So sooner or later, those quislings will be removed. For most, it comes down to die now or later. There is no long term survival when dealing with someone like Amaris. In his mind, he traded the RWR for the TH. Once he moved, the RWR only mattered to him as a distraction, while he set up his resistance to what was to come.
The concept of attack as soon as you are able to, would have resulted in the SLDF not only dying, but they would never had removed Amaris. Piece meal responses end up in this state.
|
Requiem
07/23/21 04:49 AM
1.158.209.145
|
Quote:
Do you even understand logistics and warfare? You say they should have attacked as soon as they could, but say they should not secure sources of ammunition and repair parts?
Comprehension –
1st The SLDF is engaged in a war within the Periphery – do you believe the military engages in a Just-in-time stock delivery system to the front lines or do you believe it establishes massive stockpiles of resources within the safety of the rear to ensure adequate resources are maintained to ensure the battle’s progress is not hampered by logistical issues?
2nd Considering the thousands of SLDF basses maintained throughout the Inner Sphere – what would their combined logistics equate to?
Thus it should be clear that the SLDF DOES have available resources …
As for striking at munition dumps etc, where is it written during this period of time all of these massive supply dumps (that are scattered throughout the entirely of the Inner Sphere) have been attacked – or even those close to the periphery AZ simultaneously so as to reduce the SLDF ability to respond by utilizing a massive first strike protocol?
So no this never happened and yet you can say that there is a massive amount of resources contained within the sum total of all these thousands of bases ….
Quote:
And yet again, you would have an enemy in your backside without removing the power base in the RWR.
Really … you do realise that Amaris has virtually gutted the complete Rim Worlds Military in his bid to assume control over the Hegemony …. So in all reality how many units remain within the rim worlds to hold off an invasion? Not that many considering the time it took to take over the Republic as per Canon.
Quote:
Did that make it easier for the Allies to beat them?
In actual fact, yes it did …. air superiority … the number of tanks available at any one time for tank engagements …. being constantly on the retreat … in the end calling up old mem and boys …
Quote:
Amaris would have promised them things like bigger bonuses and such if they support him.
Really? … when facing execution?
Quote:
an enemy in your backside without removing the power base in the RWR
At the RWR no longer exists and has been subsumed into the Lyran Commonwealth there is no enemy in the SLDF’s rear!!!!
Quote:
Again, you ignore the facts. The RWR has only a small token force, as most were in the TH.
From the time the RWR becomes part of the Lyran Commonwealth how many new Mechs, Vehicles, fighters, Warships etc can they manufacture ?
Quote:
I know they were NOT in one large group as you seem to think.
Please stop making erroneous assumptions on my behalf ….
Quote:
And food only lasts so long.
Please do explain Kerensky’s exodus, the Clans traveling to the IS, operation serpent with regards to food as well as the exodus fleets from Terra?
Quote:
The LC would not be able to withstand the SLDF, if they tried to protect or annex the RWR at this time. Not sure why you got it stuck in your head that they could.
Comprehension, again! …. This is a POLITICAL annexation of the RWR it has nothing at all to do with the military … Kerensky cannot attack the newly annexed state due to the fact he will be seen as a warmonger by the entire Inner Sphere … a point that could put Amaris in a positive light and the Star League and the SLDF and the enemy of mankind …
Quote:
One point that is constantly missed is the fact that those in power, don't like to share it with anyone.
One point that is constantly shown throughout history is the fact that the number two guy kills off the number one guy and thereby taking command – and what is the point of becoming the new number one if all you are going to rule is a field of corpses – something the SLDF would be more than willing to create if they attack the RWR!
Thus gaining some power and living in luxury as a saviour in history is far more preferable than dying like a dog in a ditch with no one remember you due to misguided act of loyalty to a doomed house!
Quote:
There is no long term survival when dealing with someone like Amaris.
Really? – he is in the Hegemony with the majority of his troops, only a few remain within the Republic – remove those remining within the Republic, and then hope the SLDF wins – if this is the case then all good you are the new high nobility within the Lyran state!
Quote:
The concept of attack as soon as you are able to, would have resulted in the SLDF not only dying, but they would never had removed Amaris. Piece meal responses end up in this state.
All SLDF military have been divided into areas of control – they have trained together and their fleets have all worked together – good synergy! Together with hopefully good commanders …
Please do explain how the limited forces available to Amaris would be able to survive long term when they have been divided into 5 fleets – if he had 200 ships (as he has no more time to manufacture any additional ships or Caspar systems) thus 40 ships (approx.) per fleet to engage a SLDF fleet that in all certainty could be into the hundreds if not up to the 1,000 warship mark per attack route ….
Even if he concentrated all his firepower at one spot his ability to withstand massive fleet engagements is reduced to nil!
So do please explain how his fleet can withstand the entire SLDF fleet attacking form multiple directions simultaneously – it is not the SLDF who is enacting a Piece Meal response it is Amaris in this case!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Karagin
07/23/21 11:33 AM
70.118.172.64
|
He is trying to put his version of things out as canon, we see this on every topic where he goes off on how things could be different.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
07/23/21 11:53 AM
45.51.181.83
|
Just in time stocks is what happens in war that has been going on for a while. EVERY country today, and even in the future, do not carry enough stock to fight a decade long war in one outing. This very issue is part of the clan invasion issue. They left behind supplies as arrogance. They could well have had enough to take Terra quickly.
Time, location and numbers is an issue with the periphery war. They were fighting all of them on opposite sides of the IS. This is on top of keeping their scattered bases going, as they need supplies as well. Training and guarding has to happen.
Your example of the LC taking over the RWR shows why they had to secure the RWR. Even the DC could have moved in, and set up even more issues. Bandits are another option, which ended up happening anyways. Without the Amaris war, things would have been different.
The fact that the German tanks ran out of fuel is the point on making it easier to beat them. Something you missed in your comprehensive reading of that part. How do you retreat tanks when they have no fuel to move? So that statement of constantly retreating is inaccurate.
Still don't understand that Amaris had a facade of being the good guy verse the Camerons at that point? He removed the little spoiled brat that was quickly becoming the icon of a dictator. Even among the TH. Psy ops at it's finest.
So you think that those states that refused to help you, are trustworthy? You would fall to a coupe within days.
I love this statement: From the time the RWR becomes part of the Lyran Commonwealth how many new Mechs, Vehicles, fighters, Warships etc can they manufacture ?
And you can't figure out why the SLDF took the RWR.
Please stop making erroneous assumptions on my behalf ….
Based on the entire history of your posts, you continue to suggest everything be run in one location, meaning one large group. If the assumption is erroneous, then change the tune.
You can NOT run a world from one base. 120 kilometers is almost 75 miles. Even aircraft can not respond fast enough to the east or west coast of the U.S. if based in Kansas within 2 hours. Only when you get into the upper atmosphere does the scale change. With this, the SLDF can land battalions, if not RCTs in locations to quickly overwhelm defenders.
What needs to be specified about the exodus route and food? The story specifically says they stopped for food and water along the route. Comprehend the actual written story line, and stop adding in things that aren't there. It makes understanding the story much easier.
This is a reality check. The SLDF needs supplies and none of the houses were going to help. Letting the LC take what is needed, would not have worked. It isn't like the LC had much of a choice. They could not work fast enough to secure the RWR before Kerensky took it. And that would also mean fighting their own nobles and rich in the LC. They don't want more competition, they want to own it all.
It is a constant fact that the number two guy gets killed off more often then the number one guy, when the number two guy is suspected of trying to kill off the number one guy. And with dictators, the number three guy is looking to replace the number two and so on. Promotion by assassination does not keep armies together. And this is screwed when the number two guy is utterly loyal to the number one person.
Using the end result to write what happens in the middle comes up. Those in the RWR that were left in power, weren't running on the assumption the SLDF was going to win outright. They believed Amaris would force Kerensky to acknowledge his position, as he was supposed to have help from a few of the states. Full destruction wasn't forseen.
Also, the concept of joining the LC means being completely stupid, as the greedy LC leaders would remove you after a bit as well.
What do you think the SLDF did when they attacked? Hit in one large fleet on each world they retook? Over 600 systems were in the TH with more then a few of them having multiple targets in each system. This goes back to the erroneous assumption of having everything in one large group. But I guess this doesn't show thru on the vision.
So again, the idea of not reading the actual story shows thru. Amaris had access to EVERYTHING in the TH. Only a few things were denied him as 'loyalists' remove the control from him. You say Amaris could build so much in the time it took for Kerensky to reach him on Terra, then say he couldn't build anything in that time. Which is it?
And now the circle comes back around. Do you think the nukes rained down bad during the entire campaign? With the fleet in one massive strike force, the Sol system would have glowed even brighter when Amaris used things like that to make then entire system glow brighter from all the nukes he would have used at once? Life on Terra would probably have ceased to exist in this scenario.
|
ghostrider
07/23/21 11:59 AM
45.51.181.83
|
The issue with the version he puts out is comparing inaccurate to down right false facts, and makes them seem as though everything about canon is completely wrong. Apples and oranges is something he likes to spout.
I do think there are issues with the game and it's history, but don't say my version is the only one that works. It doesn't. I would like to know where some things come from.
The arguments come from not reading the story line properly. Looking to prove points that don't exist or don't have supporting facts is a major issue. Funny how some of the responses change as facts are brought up, or ideas come up. So this isn't something he thought up years ago and is pushing it, but coming up with ideas as the discussions progress.
If they want some ideas, then ask for them.
|
Karagin
07/23/21 01:18 PM
70.118.172.64
|
It is as if he wants us to help him rewrite the BT universe to his way of thinking. Okay, then why doesn't he ask for that?
I have posted my ideas for alternate BT events, and folks have offered opinions, ideas, shot it down, and ran with it. We have seen others offer different takes on the Clans, and things are most of them thought it out first, offered the ideas, refined them as needed, and tried to give us something that flowed close to what we know but with the changes making logical sense.
For example, the SLDF taking the Rim Worlds means Amaris is cut off from an escape route and what would have been an ally is not gone. That is a simple way to explain one of many reasons they took the Rim Worlds. Cray pointed out the best on, they needed a base of operations.
I have pointed out that Empire In Flames offers a setting for alternate events and could be the building block for that but that was ignored or scoffed at when I last offered it up. Frankly, I think it was the only thing Herbert gave us that didn't monkey things up, my opinion of course.
Another good reason to take the Rim Worlds was to get information on Amaris and his plans, once they were in control of the Rim Worlds, they could then spend some time figuring out how he pulled things off and then started plans to bring him down beyond a military stand point. Wheels with in wheels kind of thing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
07/23/21 08:10 PM
1.158.209.145
|
Quote:
He is trying to put his version of things out as canon
Isekai https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isekai
Quote:
Just in time stocks is what happens in war that has been going on for a while.
Really? … the problem is BattleTech logistics is whatever you want them to be – there is no hard and fast rule within the BattleTech Universe except for that which the players want them to be … you just make it up based upon your own judgement!
This area of the game is a Massive Black Hole that has never been addressed correctly … otherwise where is the single massive book of rules devoted to just the economic development of every business and every world and every house at any one point of time … then there will also require updates on a yearly basis within the game world … it would also require a very exact figure as to each houses jump-ship / drop-ship complement as well as an in-depth understanding of all trade between every world …
It would also require to be incredibly amendable – every world must have a switch whereby their House Status must be able to be changed from one to another in order to understand the ramifications of planetary conquest …
In other words, you will need a degree in business as well as a massive computer program just to comprehend each militaries Logistics ability at any point in time …
And as we do not have this information it is up to the individual to make this call based upon their own interpretation of logic as to what is available at any point in time …
Case in point …. It has been suggested that there is not enough munitions to invade … however https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Helm
“In 2743, the SLDF 42nd Engineering Brigade began construction on the Nagayan Mountain Complex which would become the largest munitions dump ever constructed. In addition to the largest stockpile of tactical nuclear weapons the SLDF ever assembled in one place”
Question - can anyone say how many other such facilities were established throughout the IS and what were contained within them?
My opinion there could be hundreds given the sheer size and scope of the SLDF as well as considering the massive time frame available to manufacture such sites …
Then there is the issue of stockpiles that each house seized at the end of the Star League as well as the amount of hidden bases found … all indicate to one logic stream … the SLDF were incredibly well stockpiled … I am not at all convinced with the revisionist canon work which attempts to explain certain facts ….
For example Kerensky … after reading everything I can on the individual the facts for me are clear … he was not some great military leader … rather he was opportunistic, political appointee, incompetent, lacking experience for a person who had the top job, willing to purge dissenters of his rule and it goes on and on …
In all reality I am surprised he was not removed from the top job at the start of the Amaris campaign … one way or another … I am also surprised as to why the SLDF would allow him to desert their post and go on the exodus … for even suggesting such this I would have had him arrested and shot!
In my game world, however, I will have such an individual removed and find a new CIC …
Quote:
Your example of the LC taking over the RWR shows why they had to secure the RWR. Even the DC could have moved in, and set up even more issues.
Not so this is a political move … remember the Coordinator promised his dying father he would make no move against Amaris (and by extension the RWR) due to Amaris holing his relatives as hostages …
Thus once the coup is completed within the RWR and a formal treaty signed by the new administration you can then allow the LCAF into the RWR …
Just as America has done since WW2 onwards throughout the entire world …
Quote:
Without the Amaris war, things would have been different.
And yet Amaris is in the TH and he has staged a coup … and yes in my Universe things will be vastly different …
Quote:
How do you retreat tanks when they have no fuel to move? So that statement of constantly retreating is inaccurate.
Fuel – WW2 – consider the Battle of the Bulge – how many vehicles were left on the battlefield at the end and how many ended up walking back to Germany without their vehicles?
Battletech – Fuel – Star League Era – what is the most predominant engine available? Fusion – and how long until a re-fuel? So non-issue!
Quote:
So you think that those states that refused to help you, are trustworthy? You would fall to a coupe within days.
If this involves the SLDF … then might makes right as long as the SLDF can maintain a force greater than all the other Houses combined they will remain obedient … the problem is if your forces fall below this threshold they will attack.
As demonstrated throughout history ….
This is just how the great game of power works … Machiavellianism at its finest!
Quote:
And you can't figure out why the SLDF took the RWR.
And you can’t figure out why the Lyran Archon beat the SLDF to the punch … stole it all right out from under them then offered them a Line of Credit (House Store Credit that every Mercenary Unit must be wary of) … all in order to lay a trap for them … if you can’t win by military force why not just purchase the title “First Lord” by debt!
A very Lyran thing to do!
And it is all neatly rapped up in a bow of protecting human life .. even RWR lives … thus putting the Archon firmly as the frontrunner to becoming the new First Lord …. Thinking this far ahead and executing them so as to achieve the future is how a true Lord operates!
Quote:
The story specifically says they stopped for food and water along the route.
Really? … psychologically what happens to a crew when they are locked away for long periods of time and the food stores begin to run out and you don’t know when and where your next meal is coming from?
In all reality mass mutiny …. On a far larger scale than was given within the Canon … and as for purging the guilty, this clearly demonstrates that Kerensky is little better than revisionist view of Bligh on the Bounty …or how many other pirate captains?
Quote:
The SLDF needs supplies and none of the houses were going to help.
This is why you have contingency planning – stockpiles / warehouses etc
This is also why you have contracts in place that state quite clearly corporations are to supply certain amount of material to the SLDF - something a House Lord cannot stop unless they veto the contracts and in so doing create a massive PR problem with the citizens in their own Houses for undermining the Star League – that has ben put on a pedestal for how many generations as the saviour of mankind!
Sorry but no – House Lords would be committing political issues if they got involved in contract law with the SLDF.
Quote:
It is a constant fact that the number two guy gets killed off more often then the number one guy
Erroneous statement … depends upon how many factors? … also if this was the case then Amaris should be dead prior to even starting the Coup!
Quote:
Promotion by assassination does not keep armies together.
Erroneous statement … depends on how many factors? This is a Coup … so depends upon the officers and the soldiers involved … it can be framed as necessary to protect their loved ones from a SLDF reprisal they cannot win then yes the army may switch sides to the Coup plotters.
As for the number two guy … how far do I need to go down the chain of command as well as within political circles to find plotters?
Quote:
Those in the RWR that were left in power, weren't running on the assumption the SLDF was going to win outright. They believed Amaris would force Kerensky to acknowledge his position, as he was supposed to have help from a few of the states. Full destruction wasn't foreseen.
What happens when you wake up one morning and realise that all your assumptions about what was supposed to happen no longer exist and that the only way to survive is to kill off the leader …. Operation Valkyrie!!!!!
Quote:
the greedy LC leaders would remove you after a bit as well.
First the LC and the RWR leadership is not that stupid … it would be written into the accords … also it makes for an easer transference of power and long term the RWR people appreciate stability … Politically it would make more sense to keep them in power and integrate them into the LC long term!
Quote:
What do you think the SLDF did when they attacked?
This is why you have reconnaissance fleets to find the enemy … then use the on ship HPG transmitter to contact the Flag Ship who would then send in the required fleet to engage them …. Whist the bulk of the fleet continues on towards Terra ….
Quote:
Amaris had access to EVERYTHING in the TH.
So what? … if you attack asap that everything will amount to just a few added extras and the planetary defence grid and that’s it!
Cannon has Kerensky sitting outside the TH for how many YEARS all the while he is manufacturing a vast armada and army …
My strategy minimises this as far as possible …
Quote:
Do you think the nukes rained down bad during the entire campaign? With the fleet in one massive strike force, the Sol system would have glowed even brighter
This is where the GM has the ability to step in and put their foot down hard!
The Cannon system loves the idea of nukes and all WMDs no matter how barbaric it gets …
This is where individuals can choose – Yes to WMDs or No to WMDs
Me I am in the latter – no to WMDs - ban then from the game!
So if you want a game full of WMDs this is your prerogative go for it … just remember, however, the logical extension of this is the world killer ship … every military should create a ship that is designed to kill off entire worlds … so the game should devolve into MAD by a set time … so great game!
Quote:
Another good reason to take the Rim Worlds was to get information on Amaris and his plans, once they were in control of the Rim Worlds, they could then spend some time figuring out how he pulled things off and then started plans to bring him down beyond a military stand point. Wheels with in wheels kind of thing.
Problem is this was never truly explored within Canon ….
Please remember as stated above This is an ALTERNATE to Canon … people should be allowed to express their version of history as well as ideas to promote new ideas for new game settings … if you do not like the idea OK …. And if you do like the ide then that is also OK … individuals should be allowed to express their own ideas …
For me I am going to re-write the entire BattleTech History into my game setting … I am going to add in many new ideas into my game universe …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
07/24/21 01:46 AM
1.158.209.145
|
Point of interest …
If the Rim Worlds Republic is supposed to assist the SLDF in providing a military industrial complex facility from which to engage Amaris’ forces within the Hegemony … please explain …
2767 – 2772 the invasion by the SLDF in mid-2767 where 50 assorted regiments of Rim Worlds Army forces faced 2,500 regiments ….
And can some one please explain why these could not have been used in an initial attack against the TH?
That said,
First, … this invasion of the RWR worlds – how many facilities were destroyed and how many workers within these plants were killed at the same time - thereby reducing their intended workforce?
So rather than issuing orders to refrain form excessive damage to the RWR military industrial capabilities + the populace … what we see is how much wanton destruction that serves who in the long-run?
Thus how can a virtually destroyed military industrial complex serve the long term military goals of the SLDF at this point in time?
Second, … Technology … what is level of technology found within the RWR compared to the TH …. At this stage Amaris has access to the most advanced TH technology that is used to create Royal Units …. Whereas Kerensky has access to only those within the RWR + whatever he can purchase - that would be on par with those found within the House forces only … thus from a technological standpoint placing him and the SLDF at a substantial disadvantage when compared to the new Amaris forces he was able to establish in the years prior to the Kerensky’s invasion of the TH.
Third … if the majority of arms, spare parts etc is being sourced from RWR we once again return to the issue of tyranny of distance to the front lines … then there is the pesky issue of the DC and the FWL – haven’t both of these states stated that the SLDF are NOT allowed to conduct war from their territory – if this extends to Logistics then Kerensky now has a real problem as to the geographic location of the other forces beyond the DC and the FWL – there is also the issue that both the DC and the FWL may confiscate the illegal transport of war materials within their state …
Thus Kerensky will need back channel doors to get his product from the LC space to that of the other sider of the TH ….
Fourth, The Lyran Commonwealth began their mass invasion of the Rim Worlds Republic in 2773 – thus what’s the problem – take it before or after either way the Rim Worlds do end up with the LC.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
07/24/21 02:24 AM
45.51.181.83
|
Anyone that actually plays with economics in the game has to purchase supplies, and unless they pick them up and not have them delivered, has to wait until the supplies come. This is part of WHY the game uses time to target calculations. If you don't use economics, then your right. Supplies instantly teleport to where they are needed. It isn't like the GM to actually threaten them, so you have to defend them on the way in, or guard the bases where they are stored at. Oh wait. That is the impression I get when you describe how things work.
A fast make up of supplies was in the mercenaries handbook pg 12 under consumables, it can take up to 5 months to get supplies from contractors. So again, spouting things that you don't have the full facts on. Granted, it isn't exact, as figuring how many jumps to the destination from the source, but it is a basis to use. Also don't forget the dice rolls to determine IF that contractor even has the parts. For someone that loves their spreadsheets on units and such, it seems odd that you don't have one for moving supplies. You did say that the SLDF had them scattered when going after Amaris, but yet no time table on when they would get there. Hmmmm...
can anyone say how many other such facilities were established throughout the IS and what were contained within them?
Funny that you said that all those facilities were forgotten when the war happened, as ALL the people that knew of them died. Also, we know retcon material is inaccurate at best. It was also asked why the SLDF had to rebuild if all of these stockpiles were laying around.
The characterization of Kerensky that you present seems to be only your view. Arguing that the game is wrong because you think this way is yet again showing a lack of understanding the game story. He was the one to remove Amaris, and tried to keep the SL together and alive. No matter the way you want to portrait him, he walked away from seizing the power to become the next first lord. Something no one else even attempted.
Again, timing is being missed. The DC could have moved in once the SLDF had destroyed the RWR. But again, this runs counter to the vision, though is a possible outcome. And it isn't like promises to dead leaders haven't been rescinded when opportunities came up. Taking the industrial facilities and adding it to the DC military would be far greater for the DC then a simple promise. And it might help remove evidence the DC was helping Amaris in the first place, no matter the hostage situation.
And with this, the LC would not be a political grab, but a land grab. Spin it all you want, this is the end truth to that.
|
ghostrider
07/24/21 02:58 AM
45.51.181.83
|
Fuel – WW2 – consider the Battle of the Bulge – how many vehicles were left on the battlefield at the end and how many ended up walking back to Germany without their vehicles?
You missed the point entirely. The fact they ran out of fuel made it easier for the Allies to defeat them. You seem to gloss over things like this when they go against your argument.
The fuel is only part of this. Food, and drinking water are a big part as well as needing munitions and repair parts. ALL of this transportation needs guarding, as raids on supply lines will happen. With the SLDF not securing the supplies, they would falter from a lack of necessities. Oh yeah. The Wolf pack idea against the SLDF. Hmmm... Missing something?
Nothing to guard them as you would have every military ship as part of the advancing army. Which shows how quickly you would be defeated.
Wow. That looking glass is getting murky. Nations automatically attack when forces drop below a specific point? There is a lot of context missing here.
and as for purging the guilty, this clearly demonstrates that Kerensky is little better than revisionist view of Bligh on the Bounty …or how many other pirate captains?
This shows you have no clue on military protocols to keep moral up. This is very much standard military tradition to punishing mutiny. Funny how purges are bad when it is needed to deny reality of fact, yet great when the leader of a coupe does it to gain loyalty of others.
Something is wrong with your numbering system. Amaris was number one in the chain when the coupe happens. The second in command would probably be purged at the first sign of trouble. Most dictators seem to do this a lot.
You honestly think the established nobles will honor some paper to allow the leaders of a realm that basically surrendered to retain power? Or that they would even write one up? The RWR leaders would be dead within a few years of agreeing to anything like that. They were the force driving the archon to do things the way he did. And he was THEIR leader.
This statement: This is why you have reconnaissance fleets to find the enemy; runs completely counter to all of your tactics and statements. According to everything you have written, you will never have any units outside of the main force. Everything is one large attack force. And why bother according to your plan of attack? You simple hit Terra with everything, bypassing all else in order to hit fast and use the entire force you have. Contradictory statements here.
Cannon has Kerensky sitting outside the TH for how many YEARS all the while he is manufacturing a vast armada and army …
From the time the RWR becomes part of the Lyran Commonwealth how many new Mechs, Vehicles, fighters, Warships etc can they manufacture ?
Please do explain how the limited forces available to Amaris would be able to survive long term when they have been divided into 5 fleets – if he had 200 ships (as he has no more time to manufacture any additional ships or Caspar systems) thus 40 ships (approx.) per fleet to engage a SLDF fleet that in all certainty could be into the hundreds if not up to the 1,000 warship mark per attack route ….
So did Amaris had time to build more ships or not? Your own responses contradict each other on this question.
Also the fact that Amaris took the TH quickly, there wasn't so much of a need to destroy the forts and such that were already in place. So the need to build or rebuild them wasn't a huge factor. There wasn't a need to build new SDS systems as they were already in place. So again, your facts keep changing on a moments notice.
Me I am in the latter – no to WMDs - ban then from the game!
Why are you bothering to even make up the entire concept of the SLDF and the Amaris coupe and beyond then? The entire game story will NEVER follow the canon line in your view, so why even deal with the future using the canon characters and story lines? Simple logic here. They won't exist, so why even bother? Make your entire game completely different.
Then why are you arguing with people that bring up the canon history and facts? Why is there even an Amaris or Kerensky in the game? Or a Cameron line? The entire history would be changed just as humanity was colonizing the stars. You said it yourself, that the Terran Alliance would NEVER have let the colonies go. So the black hole of logic failure starts there.
|
Requiem
07/24/21 06:24 AM
1.158.209.145
|
Question – how is it possible to compare the delivery time of an item for a military unit to that of the economic development of an entire House or even that of the entire SLDF?
Quote:
You did say that the SLDF had them scattered when going after Amaris, but yet no time table on when they would get there. Hmmmm...
To calculate this you would need to know …
The location of every SLDF Facility.
The Exact Inventory contained therein at any point of time. Thus you are able to source the part from the closest warehouse or even manufacturer.
Then the exact location of all SLDF ships at any point in time as well as their destination and create a timetable …
And then it must also be adaptable if you add in any unexpected event that could affect any of these ….
So when Canon puts out such a massive interactive computer program let me know.
Other than this it is up to the GM to make the call …
Quote:
Funny that you said that all those facilities were forgotten when the war happened,
Problem is … at this point of time and within this discussion it is before any battle within the TH has even commenced. Therefore, everyone is quite alive and well and all locations are known. Kerensky therefore does have the ability to order the complete logistics transfer of every major warehouse and a proportion of bases to be transferred to multiple staging worlds prior to any invasion.
In all reality there should be a contingency plan for this very situation, and it should have been gamed out in advance y the war strategists and their computers. Each fleet operating within each SLDF sector should be able to amalgamate all resources required from all bases and warehouses as they move towards the primary target of Terra.
Quote:
The characterization of Kerensky that you present seems to be only your view.
Then can I suggest you demonstrate your point of view as to him based upon the available information … I have created a forum on this very topic.
Setting up a Star League in Exile? Really … when he had the chance of setting up the real thing within the Inner Sphere … time to face the truth as for him walking away … he was tired incompetent old man, who was a coward when it came to destiny. Who was running away from the prophecy he was shown prior to taking the top job when he was but an aide to the former Commanding General.
Who realized that if he did take the top job, in all reality he, and his family, would have only a few years to live, as all the other houses would target the remnants of the Star League and the SLDF in a bid to take the top job for themselves in a very short period of time. Him running away was an exercise in self-preservation – it had absolutely nothing to do with preserving the Star League!
Quote:
Again, timing is being missed. The DC could have moved in once the SLDF had destroyed the RWR.
And yet in the Canon it was only the Lyrans who walked in and took over the RWR.
The DC decided to sit this out completely.
Quote:
And it might help remove evidence the DC was helping Amaris in the first place, no matter the hostage situation.
At this stage the only issue is that Amaris and the DC have had discussions as to the situation – this is quite normal as Amaris would have sent messages to every House Ruler, and including Kerensky on the issue … so what is the point … there is no conspiracy at this moment in time … all Houses including the DC rejected his offer and decided to sit it out so there is absolutely no issue at this point in time concerning the DC and Amaris.
Remember this is at the start of the war prior to any invasion – Kerensky has just executed an elastic defence retreat his forces are on the way to Terra … Amaris is madly attempting to consolidate his position within the TH … Kerensky is madly issuing orders to all fleet commands throughout the IS … his strategic command officers are madly preparing multiple strategies from which to decide an appropriate strategy … Kerensky has issued an order to assemble all fleets at prearranged positions from which they will execute their plan – at the same time all logistics as well as unit readiness reports will be coming in, which will include requests for Logistics etc ….
At this very point in time when Kerensky and the SLDF are pre-disposed to working out what to do next is very time that the Archon will send in his people (who are already within the RWR) to initiate talks with high-ranking individuals who have been pre-identified as possible targets for LOKI operatives – blackmail, extortion etc
They will give them the idea and see if it bears fruit …
Timing and position is favour of the Lyrans … any SLDF response will take time to formulate … giving LOKI and the Archon the time he needs to execute the Coup … it really is quite neatly tied up in a bow at this stage and makes for a far more enjoyable read than another invasion – blow it up, kill everyone type of story that the some entertainment industries are famous for and can never seem to consider anything else …
Political grab – land grab – same objective to provide the Rim Worlds a means of escape from Amaris and the SLDF whist seeking refuge with the Lyran Commonwealth – the Rim worlds comes out of it with safety, and a new set of lords who are also now very wealthy and with Titles – the people are safe from the SLDF and the Lyran Commonwealth with a single document signed grabs a vast economic and technological block away from Amaris and the SLDF.
Quote:
Nations automatically attack when forces drop below a specific point? There is a lot of context missing here.
No, the political reality has been the same for hundreds of years within the Inner Sphere and follows the tenants laid down by Machiavelli
Quote:
This is very much standard military tradition to punishing mutiny.
Please do explain where the mutiny is when Kerensky took the top job and he immediately initiated a purge against his fellow officers.
Quote:
Something is wrong with your numbering system. Amaris was number one in the chain when the coupe happens.
Problem is that Amaris is on Terra with the majority of his military forces and his flunkies.
Stefan's regent, the patriotic, Mohammed Selim and the remaining flunkies are on Apollo it is these individuals to whom the Coup is against …
Quote:
You honestly think the established nobles will honour some paper to allow the leaders of a realm that basically surrendered to retain power?
You have a choice … 1. Surrender to the Lyran state who will offer the Rim Worlds a degree of safety, pus those that sign on now will get a free title, power and money …
Or 2. You can fight it out with the SLDF … you have 50 Regiments of mixed forces, including reserves et al against what is projected to be 2,500 SLDF Regiments … if your lucky you may find glory in death on the battlefield or hung as a traitor to the Star League …
Yes there will be a period of time where the old guard will attempt to kill you for signing the transfer, However this is what your security force is for. Over time if you can provide stability and economic prosperity these disillusioned former Amaris supporters will be weeded out … this is normal when you become a politician within the Inner Sphere – if you want power and wealth you will need to defend this against those who will desire to take it away!
Quote:
Everything is one large attack force. And why bother according to your plan of attack? You simple hit Terra with everything, bypassing all else in order to hit fast and use the entire force you have. Contradictory statements here.
Really? … Comprehension – how does a normal space war fleet operate?
Quote:
So did Amaris had time to build more ships or not?
If you go by Canon he would have how many years to manufacture new ships et al ….
If you go by my first strike theory – how many months will it take to assemble these fleets outside the TH and then send them in utilising a standard attack pattern?
In this period of time if he is lucky any ship that was mostly completed on the slips could have been pressed into service plus any damaged ship from the coup could have been fixed prior to the invasion ….
Quote:
there wasn't so much of a need to destroy the forts and such that were already in place
This is dependent upon the world in question …. Some of the worlds never allowed Amaris forces near them – thus they needed to use multiple nukes on them.
Thus the need to rebuild was required. Eg. Https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nusakan
Also of note – Nusakan – “The Terran Hegemony and Lyran Commonwealth split administrative duties for the world”
Note Nusakan is a very important world … Heavily industrialized electronics world - this is why it had three castles Brian and 7 other Fortresses over the world and yet was still allowed to be attacked by Amaris.
Then when we compare this to Mizar “Prior to the Amaris Civil War Mizar was jointly administered by the Lyran Commonwealth and Terran Hegemony. After the fighting started, Rim Worlds Republic troops didn't attack the world because the LCAF had a presence there. Antagonizing another Successor State while fighting off the SLDF was a strategic mistake that Amaris' supporters didn't make. “
Plus there are other jointly administered worlds …
Galatea … agriculture
Syrma … agriculture
What the ….??????
Quote:
Why are you bothering to even make up the entire concept of the SLDF and the Amaris coupe and beyond then?
Provides an ability to explore an alternative universe … freedom to explore … break rules try new styles … can create new characters or existing ones and change their destiny … it is a means of creating my dramatic and beautiful Universe …
Quote:
You said it yourself, that the Terran Alliance would NEVER have let the colonies go. So the black hole of logic failure starts there.
Sorry but this is not me I didn’t say this ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
07/24/21 01:03 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The SLDF did NOT have pony expresses all over the IS. And jumpships only jump so far, so fast. Ion-Lithium batteries were NOT installed on every ship. So no matter what you want to think, in game terms, it required so much time to move items from one system to another. Even if you pick them up from a station, it is going to require time to move them from Terra to even the house capitals. Some ammunition is NOT going to be built on every world, such as streak srm, naval ammo and missiles, Gauss (though not as necessary as the high tech ones), and a few others. This will also apply to endosteel and ferrous armor, as the tech is very limited, though the houses did finally get it later. That is unless the houses took the factories after the SLDF fell.
How do you know the contingency plan wasn't there, and Amaris found out thru his complete access to SLDF computers? This could well have allowed him to swell his forces, with high tech and deny it to the SLDF. This may well be part of why he waited, as he needed to find out what was still there and what was raided, before making his plans to invade the TH. Getting supplies to the army is part of waiting. Had he attacked and lost it all, you would say he was foolish for not gathering what he needed.
And yet in the Canon it was only the Lyrans who walked in and took over the RWR.
The DC decided to sit this out completely.
Gotta love the irony of this. The story says so much, and you are trying to rewrite it, yet sticking to canon because it doesn't destroy your concepts. No imagination or concepts of how things would change on even one story change. And while complaining about militaries not sacrificing their soldiers to stupid mistakes, make sure you read the history of the LC and their military.
You harp on the loss of face yet put this up?
At this stage the only issue is that Amaris and the DC have had discussions as to the situation – this is quite normal as Amaris would have sent messages to every House Ruler, and including Kerensky on the issue
Your argument of Turtle Bay would be the same here. The DC would go into a full war with the RWR, as the idea that the DC can be cowered by hostages taken, meaning the DCMS and such couldn't protect them, and not lose so much face and still continue? Those hostages would be on Terra, otherwise, the DC would have sided with the SLDF in taking down Amaris at this point. Honor would demand this (Turtle Bay example).
Gotta love this one. Destroys the argument of why Kerensky sat for a while before invading the TH.
Remember this is at the start of the war prior to any invasion – Kerensky has just executed an elastic defence retreat his forces are on the way to Terra … Amaris is madly attempting to consolidate his position within the TH … Kerensky is madly issuing orders to all fleet commands throughout the IS … his strategic command officers are madly preparing multiple strategies from which to decide an appropriate strategy … Kerensky has issued an order to assemble all fleets at prearranged positions from which they will execute their plan – at the same time all logistics as well as unit readiness reports will be coming in, which will include requests for Logistics etc ….
Kerensky already has forces in the RWR. The periphery war was still going on when Amaris took Terra. Not sure how fast the LC could counter this fact, with only the time it takes to get HPG messages to those forces to seize the factories they are currently sitting on, or in. More forces could be sent from bases in the LC that are close by to support such an order.
This also ignores the fact that a lot of citizens in the RWR are TH sympathizers. They would assist in taking and running the economy there for the SL.
The CC would never have been formed if the FS and FWL had attacked because they were weak. The CC was the last great state to be formed. Only the DC has a history of military conquest against their neighbors. The other houses came together outside of military fights. So no. The history of the IS does not rely on attacking other states when they are weak before the 1st war. And then, they attacked no matter how strong the enemy was.
What time frame are you asking?
Kerensky took the top position when given it before the war. That purge was not killing those that were sent out, unless they were specifically found guilty of crimes. Most were retired or went to work elsewhere. This is the VERY purge you say ALL leaders do when they take over from another.
When the war was over and the houses stripped Kerensky of his leading the SL, but left him in charge of the SLDF? No purge that I know of took place.
When he packed up and left? The SL did not exist at this point. He was consolidating his forces and only left after the DC invaded the FS for the title of first lord. Again, where is the mutiny. I did not see anything saying there were orders for Kerensky to stay in any spot. He was in charge until the council destroyed the SL with their bickering.
Stefan's regent, the patriotic, Mohammed Selim and the remaining flunkies are on Apollo it is these individuals to whom the Coup is against …
So your math is off, as Selim is second or third or so in command. As Amaris had looked over Kerensky refusing his offer, he basically left Selim there to die.
Comprehension is that fact that following standard doctrine is against the tactics shown in the threads. You said it yourself that you don't have guards or any units outside of the main base. Why would this be any different? You said it was a change to your vision. And this violates the very tenant of having all forces together, going straight for Terra. You said hitting the other systems as you went to Terra was stupid, yet now you want to send forces out to see where the enemy is at? Scouts are the correct thing to do, but it is against your own tactics posted here time after time.
Going with the first strike concept, to reread your own response where the SLDF was trying to figure out where everything was and start rerouting it so they could have the supplies needed to hit the TH. Supply transports would be scattered around the IS as they were fighting the entire periphery at this point. Hoping that all orders actually got thru to their transports, you still need time to get them going where they need to and pick up the items needed, and get it to where you want them. All this while having to secure the location and jump lanes to get them there.
The entire war in the periphery was NOT normal attack patterns. Running a basic guerilla war, there would be nothing standard to Amaris's plans. He had something no one else had in the history of the game outside of the TH. The SDS was a game changer to begin with. Then he had all those factories the SLDF were using to pump out units to support the war in the periphery. Which were on wartime footing due to the war in the periphery. Manning the machines would be the weak point here, not building them.
Up to 18 months to build the biggest warships. That is not saying they can't be rushed, or that the multiple building slips didn't have various states of ships being built in them. The SLDF had to know they needed more ships to deal with the periphery entirely at once. And replace those they were losing. So yes. Taking them down earlier is better then letting them build, but you risk finding out the hard way, that your rush tactics were the worse thing you could do. And this is only thinking of the Titan shipyards, not others scattered around the TH, and IS.
How many forts were transferred over without a fight? And with Amaris hitting the dual administered fort, you think the nobles would not use that as an excuse to just invade the RWR? You negotiations would fail as the 'patriots' in the LC would just outright attack the RWR warlords.
In the past, you said the Terran Alliance would have forced all colonies to accept a military garrison. They would have to have a military transport with them and rely on the TA armies to guard them. This means the TA would not have allowed any to be anything but a colony of the TA. Logic and comprehension. Twist is as you will, the fact is, you can not say they will be free if they are required to be part of the TA.
|
Requiem
07/24/21 07:01 PM
1.158.209.145
|
The Year 2767 – as the Amaris-Kerensky War commences ….
HPG’s - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hyperpulse_Generator
Mobile HPGs – “The most common form of mobile HPG is the 50-ton model, introduced in 2655, is installed upon large spacecraft, such as JumpShips and WarShips; an even smaller 12-ton ground-mobile model, designed for transport by ground vehicles or BattleMechs, was developed in 2751. While these mobile generators were relied upon heavily by the SLDF”
The Jumpship / Warship HPH has been in existence for 11-12 years.
The first HPG planetary communication occurred New Year’s Day 2630 and … as per above sarna link within History section … and
“By the time of Stefan Amaris’ coup, the Star League Communication Network (SLCOMNET) was at its peak, linking every single inhabited world throughout the Inner Sphere and Periphery, backed up by mobile transmitters aboard many official Terran Hegemony civil-service and military JumpShips and WarShips.”
Wouldn’t it be SOP that the Fleet Admiral’s Flag Ship be one of the first to be equipped with such a Mobile HPG within every sector the SLDF operates within? – Therefore as indicated by available information NO pony express at all – communication is not an issue …
The invasion can commence on schedule …
Ammunition …
As stated above this is a non-issue also … as proven there are multiple warehouses established throughout the IS for this very purpose … plus there exists who knows how many contracts with who knows how many manufacturers with the SLDF to provide such materials ….
Quote:
How do you know the contingency plan wasn't there, and Amaris found out thru his complete access to SLDF computers?
We don’t …
However how simple would it be to modify any existing file? The number still do not change as to flee sizes and military units available for any invasion, its timetable – objectives etc … Any plans to invade will include logistics current as well as schedules for replacement parts, personnel etc … as well as a loss depletion report …
As stated above there is no logistical table for entire multiple armadas circa 2767.
As for Amaris swelling his forces with high tech – he only has a limited time to complete the update of his forces with advanced tech – as he can only start this once the Coup has commenced not before - if you adopt a TH invasion first strategy … as for denying the SLDF, how? They already have been issued with the advanced tech and has been used to upgrade all Royal Units … also these units would have a logistical stockpile of replacement parts on hand … so again not an issue …
Quote:
No imagination or concepts of how things would change on even one story change.
Au contraire mon ami, switching the RWR’s fate from invasion – destruction and only partial absorption into the Lyran Commonwealth to that of a complete takeover prior to any invasion – no destruction whatsoever – brings a new vitality to the story that it was completely lacking … too many times within the Canon story the concept of military might must be used to solve the issue …. And this is the problem the story has a boring predictability about any situation, it lacks a certain ‘umph’ to improve the underlining canon story that does not involve the military constantly … political subterfuge can improve the story … plus it would not kill the writers to add in a bit more human emotions now and again … though the size of each novel is lacking when compared to other games novels … but this comes down to costs ….
Quote:
You harp on the loss of face yet put this up?
To understand this nuances of this issue please consult Hakkenden and the eight virtues of the Samurai honour (bushido) – the core virtues of Confucianism –
Filial piety / devotion
Duty / Righteousness
Faith / Integrity
Brotherly / Fraternal Bonds
Wisdom
Loyalty
Etiquette
Benevolence
Suggest googling Filial piety and then applying this to obligation of the child that can be seen in the promise of a son to a dying father …
Quote:
Kerensky already has forces in the RWR.
No, Kerensky had forces outside the RWR … located within Lyran Space …and in no way did they have the numbers to invade ‘at this point in time’ … why, the New Vandenberg Uprising has commenced …. Involving only Taurian Concordat, Magistracy of Canopus and Outworlds Alliance …remember at this point in time, Amaris is viewed as an ally to the Cameron family … this is why his forces were given access to many of the SLDF bases etc within the TH whist they were away fighting in these three periphery realms.
Thus the LC does have the time necessary to commit a coup and steel the Rim Worlds right under Kerensky … as any invasion of the RWR will take time to organize fleets from the DC would have to be dispatched – and this would mean giving up on any initial plan of invading the TH first – thus providing Amaris with the time he needs …. So, the Canon choice is retribution upon the RWR at the expense of providing the Amaris the time he needs to fortify and build an army that can take on the SLDF ….
Quote:
This also ignores the fact that a lot of citizens in the RWR are TH sympathizers. They would assist in taking and running the economy there for the SL.
Really? … the only way possible is if you have people in the Ministry of Finance / Taxation etc … and this can only occur post Coup!
Capellan Confederation - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/History_of_the_Capellan_Confederation
suggest re-reading the Foundation section …
Aleksandr Kerensky named Commander in Chief of the SLDF April 21st 2738 …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Aleksandr_Kerensky “Kerensky quickly eliminated inept officers” ie a purge!
Quote:
Again, where is the mutiny.
14 February 2784 – the secret meeting on Terra – Operation Exodus - What is the duty of the SLDF and in abandoning their post and running away is MUTINY! They rejected their orders to defend the Star League!
Quote:
Mohammed Selim
Semantics aside, this still does not change the fact that with Selim and his flunkies gone the road is open for the LC to assume control over the RWR and absorb it into their realm.
Quote:
Comprehension
Really? That is not the impression I get.
Quote:
rerouting it so they could have the supplies needed to hit the TH. Supply transports would be scattered around the IS as they were fighting the entire periphery at this point.
Please realize that Logistics and Naval Command and Control would have a plot room on which ALL fleets and ships (both warship and transport) is maintained with the most up-to date information available based upon projected timetables as well as communications via HPG.
Also as there is only three theatres of war within the Periphery shouldn’t the Admiral of that area know when and where their ships are at all times so as to ensure operational efficiency. Also when travelling back to Terra ships can be send on the exact course transports are taking in order to intercept and provide new orders if necessary?
Also all existing lanes have been secured for how long? And how and why would Amaris dilute his home fleet in a bid to intercept a transport fleet who should be protected by an escort fleet in times of war – the Periphery War!
So, again, there is no real issue here …
Quote:
The SDS was a game changer to begin with
And when this was developed … prior to Amaris taking control of it … no one within the SLDF ran war games with the system to determine its operational effectiveness, identify weak points and determine strategies on how to neutralize it if it was ever captured by the enemy? … any SAS in the future would have gamed this out in advance, just in case terrorists took control of it - as well as Naval units ….
It was considered effective, however, what happens when you use your longest range naval energy weapons, firing at extreme range, whist using hundreds of ships all concentrating their fire upon these targets at the same time … given the fact that the SLDF has over 5,000 warships and even if you are considering one sixth of this as a Terran strike force this really shouldn’t be a problem …
Quote:
… but you risk finding out the hard way, that your rush tactics were the worse thing you could do. And this is only thinking of the Titan shipyards, not others scattered around the TH
When the SLDF has approximately 5,000 warships to how many hundred Amaris had isn’t this a forgone conclusion … just a matter of time?
Also as for the shipyards, wouldn’t each admiral within one of the attacking fleets designate them as a primary target for re-capture?
Quote:
How many forts were transferred over without a fight?
Within the TH a majority of them, outside none at all …
Quote:
with Amaris hitting the dual administered fort, you think the nobles would not use that as an excuse to just invade the RWR?
Really?
First, they do not have the authority … only the Archon has the authority.
Second, as stated on Mizar Amaris’ forces didn’t engage dual administered WORLDS … these attacks demonstrate that someone forgot this point whist writing the world’s history … it is quite clear these worlds are Lyran and it is also clear Amaris’ forces were forbidden from attacking House worlds as he did not want to escalate the war …
Third if the attack did take place it was upon the TH / LC border whereas a retaliation would have to take place over the RWR / LC border – how many nobles have jurisdiction over forces over this distance?
Sorry but no - these ‘patriots’ would not have the power or the authority over regular forces – so this just leaves Mercenary and this can be dealt with when the Noble who ordered this is brought to trial. That is if this even gets that far … as wouldn’t Loki keep a very close eye on all Mercs?
Quote:
you can not say they will be free if they are required to be part of the TA.
Why is this even an issue? The TA is no longer an entity … they pulled back their control …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
07/24/21 07:51 PM
45.51.181.83
|
What does having a full HPG system have to do with the fact that moving items between stars takes time? The issue isn't sending a message saying to move it, it is the fact that you physically have to move it onto a ship, then the ship has to travel to the jump point, if not on a station at the jump point, then dock with a jumpship and jump to the next system. Then either find another jumpship going where they need to or waiting for the one they are attached to, charge back up. Hot loading is possible but not likely for commercial ships. It will still take time to get to where they need to be. And that is IF all the loads going are ready to move.
Until the HPG network was able to send out information that the Cameron line was dead, the SL's own computer network could order anything moved, opened, closed and such. As Amaris had all those codes, why would you think he did not have supplies moved either towards Terra, or elsewhere? This very thing would be step two or so when securing the TH. Making sure the no one else could move against him.
So with all the items stockpiled in the TH, you think Amaris would need to produce things in order to equip his units with them? Really? It is simple to give his units the advanced tech machines that are in storage, ready to go. No need to build new atlas's, highlanders and such, when they are already warehouses stocked with such things. This is also not saying Amaris was not able to begin manufacturing things while playing the buddy with Cameron. He had already been getting the SLDF to begin removing troops from the RWR.
First thing is the game is a war game. So it will focus around warfare. But do you think the SL and other lords would allow the LC to keep anything they seized from the RWR? And this is without the general estates and nobles going along with leaving the RWR warlords in place? Amaris attacked LC property in his take over as you pointed out. There is no way the LC government would allow the warlords to remain in power. The DC and FWL would absolutely fight against the LC gaining that much power as well.
Thus the LC does have the time necessary to commit a coup and steel the Rim Worlds right under Kerensky
This says it all. The LC stealing RWR territory before Amaris started the coupe means the SLDF would have to fight the LC, as Amaris would make sure the first lord commanded it. That means yet another conflict to distract Kerensky when the Coupe actually happens. This may well cause the LC to go into a civil war as well as the other houses trying to muscle in on the whole situation. That is unless you are suggesting the LC had prior knowledge of the coupe.
Purging inept soldiers is not the same as punishing a mutiny. Not sure why this has to be stated. Might as well say that Kerensky overthrew the Cameron's as he did not like the way things are running.
The SL was disbanded when Kerensky left. WHO ordered them to protect the now defunct SL? No one had the authority to do so at the time. There was no more SLDF. It went extinct when the SL did.
The TH had no one in power that could even begin to order the SLDF to do anything.
Please realize that Logistics and Naval Command and Control would have a plot room on which ALL fleets and ships (both warship and transport) is maintained with the most up-to date information available based upon projected timetables as well as communications via HPG.
So this organization just vanishes during the Amaris war? Every depot is forgotten in an instant, yet they knew where it all was with the Periphery war and the Amaris war being done?
But besides this, there is still the fact that the whole network has things scattered across the IS. Transports needed to pick up the troops from the TC would still have to go to the TC to get the troops and move them to a staging area for the invasion of the TH. Equipment and such would need the same thing. And with the detour of going to the RWR, it means even more time.
The admiral would NOT know where all ships are at any time. Even with the full staff of the quartermasters, they wouldn't know this. Ships would be sent out, and not be in communications until they get to their destination, and even then, may not report in. There are lots of reasons why this may happen beyond mission protocols. Things like break downs, being destroyed, as well as just being hijacked come to mind. Detours by local military leaders to deal with things that are not big enough to disturb the higher ups, but large enough to authorize the actions. Simple emergency medical situations will do this.
Over 5000 warships, yet how many were actually able to be sent and participate in the attacks? The war in the periphery had them constantly being attacked and destroyed, as well as other issues. Guarding areas required warships be set in place, so that shrinks down the numbers a lot. Now house ships that are part of the SLDF would have to be ignored as the houses were NOT helping the SLDF with the attack. So how many more were removed for this reason?
So you falsified saying the attacks on those worlds were overlooked, yet saying they were not attacked? So which is it? Where they attacked or not? And by WHOM? Your facts continually show up as being wrong.
The archon was not as powerful in the SL era as they were during the succession wars. They were more political and less overall dictator.
It seems you think the LC government was one big happy family that didn't bicker or use dirty tricks on each other. There were and still are, entities in the LC that would attack no matter what the archon says. It would be in their best interest to make sure their people were safe, and the only way to ensure that would be force.
Why is this even an issue? The TA is no longer an entity
Because the entire game evolved from the TA and what happened. The fact that you have said the TA would not allow the colonists to self govern means the entire successor states would not have come about. So the entire concept of the IS as well as what happens during the SL would never have come about. So the point is, there is NOTHING that can be even close to canon with a full rewrite as stated. Saying canon has so many logic holes, this would be the basis for a rewrite, and it would be based on a huge logic hole.
|
Requiem
07/24/21 10:14 PM
1.158.209.145
|
Quote:
What does having a full HPG system have to do with the fact that moving items between stars takes time?
Communication – admirals discussing strategy / tactics – timetable – operational effectiveness – logistics – determining primary targets etc etc
Quote:
Until the HPG network was able to send out information that the Cameron line was dead, the SL's own computer network could order anything moved, opened, closed and such.
Problem with this is that in order to order anything two conditions must be met …
First, you need access to the computer system … which is heavily encrypted and if the Black Watch were able to do so they could have sent an override code and locked EVERYONE out of the system (so no there is no way of actually verifying whether Amaris had the codes at all) … thus you will need to hack back in … and we all know what happens if the system detects a malicious hack ….. also wouldn’t the encryption verification system be purged from the system thus making all further communication with SLDF as rendered useless … without proper authentication it will be handed over to security for analysis …
Second, in order for any orders to go out the HPG system must be operational (turned on) and given the fact Amaris had it shut down no messages are going anywhere except for those within the Terran system itself …
And once Amaris has notified the Universe at large all existing codes and code books become useless.
Quote:
So with all the items stockpiled in the TH, you think Amaris would need to produce things in order to equip his units with them? Really?
So how long goes it take to work out how to retrofit a new piece of equipment into an existing piece of hardware – that is requiring a total retrofit? And then how long will it take to complete this retrofit to every weapon the Amaris forces have on hand?
As for existing weapons … when the OB took over Terra what happened o ComStars existing Mechs and how long were they locked down for …. And how many were actually on hand for appropriation given that the majority of SLDF is out to War?
Quote:
First thing is the game is a war game. So it will focus around warfare.
Sorry to burst the bubble but it is not war …. War is politics by another means … it is about conquest, and this can be achieved either via war or politics …
What is the aim of all House Lords? Expansion of power … this usually goes with economic, military, geography, people etc
Winning a war without firing a shot is the ultimate goal of any military … and in this case it is achievable!
Quote:
But do you think the SL and other lords would allow the LC to keep anything they seized from the RWR?
First the SL is in turmoil
Second this is an internal matter within the LC so all other Houses can make all the protests they want, nothing is going to change the fact that the RWR has been annexed …
Quote:
And this is without the general estates and nobles going along with leaving the RWR warlords in place?
With an increased economy opportunities arise for increased business profits through a new market penetration – also it is more efficient if you leave things as is … suggest reading above document - how to take over a small country in 10 easy steps.
Keeping them in power is just the price of doing good business, something every good Lyran would understand!
Quote:
Amaris attacked LC property in his take over as you pointed out.
Really? That is not what was written “ as stated on Mizar Amaris’ forces didn’t engage dual administered WORLDS … these attacks demonstrate that someone forgot this point whist writing the world’s history … it is quite clear these worlds are Lyran and it is also clear Amaris’ forces were forbidden from attacking House worlds as he did not want to escalate the war …”
They never attacked Lyran Worlds!
Quote:
This says it all. The LC stealing RWR territory before Amaris started the coupe means the SLDF would have to fight the LC
Really? As stated many times above … Amaris commits his coup within the TH …. THEN everyone learns of his perfidy … THEN out Archon sees an opportunity based upon what he expects Kerensky to do next or when Kerensky Calls the Archon requesting aid in the upcoming war … THEN he hatched a plan to steal the RWR given his insider information that Kerensky wants to attack the RWR or he could even just make up the attack as a pretext for assisting the coup along … the LC does not need to have prior knowledge of the Coup within the TH – it only takes advantage of the situation for their benefit!
As for other Houses muscling in … they can’t! it is an internal LC matter if they did under SLDF charter they are now supposed to protect the Lyrans against foreign aggressors ….
And given the new increased military might of the LC/RWR wouldn’t any other realm (DC and FWL) think twice about this -also the FWL is a basket case at this point in time so the only Realm of concern would be the DC …
Quote:
Purging inept soldiers is not the same as punishing a mutiny. Not sure why this has to be stated.
Really? … A purge of the offer corps points to Kerensky’s desire for total power within the SLDF. In short, rivals had to be removed for Kerensky to rest easy about the security of his position within the SLDF … it is a means of consolidating power, especially when you see that his service jacket is lacking in all areas of command … especially when you compare it to others who have been in the service longer than he has been alive!
There is also a second related explanation for the purge that points to Kerensky’s paranoia: Kerensky saw enemies within the SLDF … removal of potential challengers to his power … as he has to be off his tree to consider the prophecy as handed down from the previous first lord, his sister and the previous commander of the SLDF as to the burning of Terra.
In reality, however, the purge should have put his position in danger, once war commences … especially if his loss depletion report indicates a complete fiasco when it comes to the amount dead / destroyed Vs any gains made in the war ….
Have a look at the initial war within Periphery at this time … he lost over half of all his Periphery forces and was for a time forced to retreat out of Taurean space … at this point you have got to be asking why the media were not baying for his head on a pike for the shear incompetence shown!
Quote:
The SL was disbanded when Kerensky left. WHO ordered them to protect the now defunct SL?
Really? Duty and Honour mean nothing! – They swore an oath to serve and protect and when it got difficult, they ran away with their tails between their legs! And what did they do … set up the Star League in Exile … whereas their true duty lied with remaining within the TH and setting up a Star League within the ashes of the TH and from that point on working towards rebuilding the Star League ….
They betrayed everything they fought and died for!
Quote:
So this organization just vanishes during the Amaris war? Every depot is forgotten in an instant, yet they knew where it all was with the Periphery war and the Amaris war being done?
We are discussing the point prior to any battle within the TH!
Quote:
Over 5000 warships, yet how many were actually able to be sent and participate in the attacks?
At even 50% you will still have an overwhelming force available … did you have another figure in mind and if so why?
Quote:
Archon
The Archon within the LC has COMPLETE control over the Military as well as the Government!
So yes he can ensure that no attacks are ordered against the RWR
However, given the fact that These jointly administered Lyran worlds were NEVER attacked by Amaris – The Archon does not have to stop some crazy LC lord from attacking the RWR in an act of stupidity!
Still does not change the fact that the plan to annex the RWR will go ahead!
Quote:
Because the entire game evolved from the TA and what happened.
Really …. Sorry but no …. If you want a single realm empire go for it … but I doubt I ever said this.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
07/25/21 03:10 AM
45.51.181.83
|
You don't think Amaris had access to the entire SLDF computer systems? He was the 'only' friend Richard had. Amaris was given access by Richard.
As more and more bases were placed under Republic control, Stefan Amaris proceeded to Terra and assassinated Richard and all remaining members of the Cameron family, taking power of the Star League, removing any trace of the Star League he could.
So yeah. Amaris had access to the SL computer network.
And now you suggest that Amaris and his people didn't change the codes as they killed Richard? The first thing they would have done is make sure no one on Terra could access the system, then expanded. Well besides having to clean up that mess.
So how long goes it take to work out how to retrofit a new piece of equipment into an existing piece of hardware – that is requiring a total retrofit? And then how long will it take to complete this retrofit to every weapon the Amaris forces have on hand?
How long does it take to reprogram mechs to accept a new pilot? There were assembled mechs and other units that they very much would have transferred into, with keeping the old RWR built ones for any reserve. Part of the supply lines as Terra was the main manufacturing planet for the SLDF. Do you think they shut it down when Kerensky went to fight in the periphery? Really shows a lack of thought for the whole issue if you did.
Sorry to burst the bubble but it is not war …. War is politics by another means.
So Battletech is not a war game? I would suggest you actually read the definition of a war game and avoid using the comprehension skills that put in things that aren't there.
THIS IS A WAR GAME. The focus is going to be on fighting. You can play the game without any knowledge of the houses. You pick mechs and go fight. Politics have nothing to do with that.
Still missing the point. There is no share power. The nobles want a better economy, but only when THEY own it. Otherwise, the lose money and power with the more competition in the markets.
This next statement is from the wiki that deals with the very issue of the RWR.
As discrepancies showed up, with many more Rim Worlds forces seeming to arrive than planned, House Kurita unsuccessfully requested that joint action be taken against the Republic.
So no. The LC could NOT take over the RWR without causing a war. If the DC couldn't gain from it, the other lords would make sure the LC couldn't.
So every leader in history has partaken in purges, meaning they all were power hungry? And yet how many coupes happened in the larger nations? Taking the presidency or prime minister rolls would assure their power. Funny that you suggested every new leader runs purges to remove those that don't seem loyal. If you don't then you will have a civil war because those that lost power when the new leader comes in, will do what ever it takes to gain it back. Even if it means sending innocent soldiers to their deaths to prove the new leader doesn't have a clue.
Still trying to push that BS? The League was dead. There is no duty to perform as they were no longer employed by the SL. Honor went out the window when the houses ended the SL. Even the people in the TH voted to have Amaris represent them. Given the fact that the soldiers went from fighting in the periphery against the realms out there, to hitting the RWR, then having to hit the TH without any help from those that were SUPPOSED to be allies, and when they finally won, they got told that none of it mattered. The house lords killed the SL in their bid for power. There would be yet another war, and this time it would destroy the SL completely. Leaving, it was hoped they could keep the SL alive. The house hatreds made sure that didn't happen.
Leaving was preferred over having the SLDF go into a civil war with itself. And the house hatreds would have torn apart the victors of the Amaris war.
I have explained why the total ships the SLDF had, would not be all involved in the TH fight. They had to maintain a prescence in all realms including the periphery. Each house would demand the SL honor their agreement and protect their borders, as they were not going to help remove Amaris. They were going to make sure other houses didn't take advantage of the SL being distracted and hit them.
Delusional with just how much power the Archon has during the SL? Is that why the general estates had to confirm everything he wanted? Or force him to change his plans?
|
Requiem
07/25/21 05:46 AM
1.158.209.145
|
Quote:
Amaris was given access by Richard.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Amaris_Civil_War
“Immediately he seized control of the automated security systems with the palace, using the control panel within the Audience Chamber which Richard himself had proudly shown Stefan how to operate. “
So the control panel within the Audience Chamber – yes
The entire SLDF computer system – No
The SLDF computer system would be on an entirely different system and scale - you would need thousands of people to enter and collate data to distribute, collate, analyse and act upon (thus working in tandem with other departments to ensure the vast amount of data is acted upon with efficiency and alacrity) the vast amount of information throughout the entire Inner Sphere … ie. the system would be on the same scale as a Government Department.
Sorry but no he did not have access to SL computer network …
His people have orders from High command providing them access … some of which were ignored by local commanders …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Carlos_Kataga
“ Benboudaoud presented Kataga with orders signed by General Aleksandr Kerensky directing that the Rim Worlds forces should take up station within the Castles Brian on New Dallas. Both Kataga and Clay met this with outright laughter, and indicated that only the most minor corners of the most far-flung bases would be given over to the control of Benboudaoud and her troops”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zebebelgenubi
“Despite the months of training given by the Ulsop Robotics personnel to the first group of operators it still took more than two years for the Republicans to begin bringing SDS networks back online, particularly the most advanced of the systems, the Reagan SDS network in the Terra system.”
Thus if Kerensky had attacked initially, as I suggested, the entire SDS network would have been off line – saving how many ships and people?
This also indicates that NO he did not have access to many parts of the SL computer network.
Quote:
There were assembled mechs and other units that they very much would have transferred into
Problem is there is a war and the majority would have been sent to the front lines as replacement units … thus in all reality only a minimum would be stockpiled on hand … depending on transfer schedules …
That said there is absolutely no way of knowing how many were on hand once Amaris took over … I can say though that if Kerensky and the SLDF attack with immediate effect this will limit the production of new mech numbers to an absolute minimum!
This is not a war game it is a game of conquest … first to grab the title First Lord by any means … or what was Amaris doing, what was the succession wars all about?
Quote:
Politics have nothing to do with that.
Quote:
Still missing the point. There is no share power.
Sorry but this is not how empires expand – as to both two quotes above - Then what was the wedding between Davion and Steiner about? Why create the FC? Why did one House not demand the other Houses nobility step down so that they could have more power when creating the FC? … the two amalgamate … they both have nobility as per the doctrine of the FC …
Quote:
House Kurita unsuccessfully requested that joint action be taken against the Republic.
The word is “unsuccessfully” …
As in this case the DC would be unsuccessful in stopping the amalgamation of the RWR and the LC … the document would be signed and official before they even know what is going on.
Quote:
So every leader in history has partaken in purges
This is a massive leap … Cabinet reshuffle … serving at the pleasure of the president …that is until demanding their resignation
Quote:
Still trying to push that BS? The League was dead. There is no duty to perform
Please explain the American War between the North and the South – USA was dead there was no duty to perform a civil war …
Did any of the damaged countries during ww2 give up or did they rebuild - Germany, Japan, China ... all now powers in their own right!
Sorry but this is absolutely not the case … as long as one SLDF soldier stands and states that the league exists … it exists! This is the Duty of the SLDF to stand in the night and to shout into the void … we still exist! It was their duty to hold the TH at a minimum and to hold to the values of the Star League … it was their duty to reform the Star League no matter how small and to work towards its reformation no longer how long!
We keep working at making it a reality no matter how many times it takes – this is what it is to be human – when we see something valuable to us destroyed, we rebuild it and keep on rebuilding it until it is there forever!
THIS IS THE DUTY OF A SLDF SOLDIER!
Quote:
I have explained why the total ships the SLDF had, would not be all involved in the TH fight. They had to maintain a presence in all realms including the periphery. Each house would demand the SL honour their agreement and protect their borders
Can I laugh now? …. They would have been happy to see the back of the SLDF and all would be hoping the SLDF and Amaris would obliterate each other … thus creating a political / military vacuum from which each House Lord was considering they would best fit as the next First Lord …
At this stage every House has begun a massive production of warships … or how else do you explain the battles in 20 years where most of the Houses have fleets in the 300 plus range during many of the initial First Succession War battles?
Quote:
Delusional with just how much power the Archon has during the SL?
Question – what is the Lyran equivalent of the Magna Carta and what is the powers of a monarch?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/25/21 07:15 AM)
|
Karagin
07/25/21 10:45 AM
70.118.172.64
|
I still say Empire Aflame is the setting he wants. Terran Hegemony reborn, SLDF does a lot of what he is rattling about. House Lords don't quite get what they want. No Clans, No Word of Blake (well kind of).
I like that setting a lot better in some ways than the current overall setup.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
07/25/21 01:03 PM
45.51.181.83
|
So the first lord did not control the entire network from the palace? Think about how this sounds. ALL of the first lords orders could be sent out from here, allowing Amaris to take control of the system. Simple orders like making some name as new head of SL intel, or someothername as the new head of quartermaster. And I would expect Amaris to have computer experts with him when he took the throne. Changing all the codes would well be within the first lords commands and given Richard wasn't happy with anyone including Kerensky, such an order would not seem out of place.
This also goes along with your view that those in charge have absolute power. See the conflict in your own argument?
Yet taking the stored units in the TH meant upgrading his forces to SL standards. A majority going to the front lines would be feasible, up until Amaris took over, or possibly had Richard order them stockpiled before the coup. Also increasing production as well as having his forces start being outfitted as they got there with the order of the first lord is likely as well. How many or even if such an order were obeyed is another story. Still lacking depth in the 'perfect' story.
The formation of the FC was based on the fact that both sides realized there was no winning the war on their own. And what happened to the FC? Katherine went the route that only she should lead. The dual governments lead to a lot of issues, which is always the case with politics. Even the DC had issues with ruling their lands and they didn't use politics in the beginning. For the FC to even begin to come together, existing nobles had to be appeased or it would have failed entirely, which it did anyways. The military prowess combined with the industrial might would have started a new round of nukes flying, or the establishment of a new IS, with the FC leader being in control.
As with all history, anytime a nation got close to being dominant, some other issue came up to prevent it. How about harping on that if you want to rage against the developers. If not for the Skye rebellion, the DC would be hurting very badly when the clans got in. The Comstar deal would not have happened, so that entire outcome of the 3039 war would have been a solid win for the FC.
But as the story plan was, the DC was needed to be strong in order to fight the clans. Also, if the FC had not had the rebellion happen, Comstar would have had to either attack the FC outright, or start figuring out how to subvert it to avoid Comstar losing their power. It would also remove Comstar being able to do their part in the story line.
But in the end, the nobles of the LC would NOT share power with the RWR. That would diminish their power, which is the entire motive for conflict. Win by any means is what you said about the first lord position. That holds true with a lot, but not all, nobles and CEOs.
As in this case the DC would be unsuccessful in stopping the amalgamation of the RWR and the LC
The petition was not to stop the LC from seizing the RWR, but to stop the large amounts of forces from the RWR was bringing into the TH. Again, the comprehension skill is putting in words and meanings into things that just aren't there.
Maybe the definition of purge is where things are getting mixed up. A purge does not mean you take out all your enemies and put them in a firing line. You simple remove them from any sort of power. Execution does make it so they themselves can not come back and cause trouble, but it does not stop others from martyring them or trying to get revenge. Imprisonment is a middle ground, but still fails more often then not.
The U.S. was very much alive in the civil war. The country abolished slavery, and the south rebelled against that. There were other factors in this as well, but this was the major one. The north succeeded in bringing the south in line with the nations decree. Without slaves, the rich people had to actually pay for work done. This cut into their profits. Sound familiar with history and even the future? It wasn't that all the states decided to disband the U.S. Both were vying for the title of the U.S. and fought over the differences. There was still a U.S. to fight over. The SL was dead when the council disbanded it. If the TH had some legal ruler, then it wouldn't have been.
Staying and trying to defend the TH, would have meant Kerensky was seizing control of the TH at least, or the entire concept of the SL. This option would make him no better then Amaris in the eyes of everyone outside of the TH. Even those inside would wonder if the war against Amaris wasn't to do the same.
And you are right. They were soldiers. But who was paying their wages and who would direct them like a civilian government does? No one, because there was no nation that was there.
Funny thing here. The entire SLDF didn't leave. Those that stayed behind did what? Nothing. They stayed to protect the HPG network. The TH fell. So you did have soldiers do the suicide concept you wanted. How did that work?
You are saying the houses would love to see the main protection they have against the other houses leaving them? You are saying the houses wanted the SLDF to leave the periphery to be able to hit their states? All the houses tried to hit the periphery on their own and lost. The fact that the RWR was able to amass such an army scared the house lords, as they didn't know it was just the RWR or if it was all the periphery states. Amaris had more then the houses did in military hardware. And you think they wanted to see the SLDF leave their realms underdefended?
Do you think this concept of trying to protect their own was the public reason for not helping Kerensky? This would be one of a few times the governments statements would be accurate. Not a single state wanted the periphery to start invading their worlds.
And the numbers thing won't work. You might have 40 regiments of troops, but you can't cover all your worlds from attacks. You have to deal with the locals far more then the enemy has to even try and hold a world. And as said, they tried to hit the periphery realms and failed already.
I haven't seen Empire Aflame. The issue as I see it is playing that means the credit and admiration that goes with making something like it, would not be his. It would not be HIS vision. And then it would start a whole new round of needing a rewrite because it doesn't fit.
I think I will go back to just ignoring the conversation.
|
Karagin
07/25/21 01:31 PM
70.118.172.64
|
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Empires_Aflame
It's a free download and I know Merdon over at PRI ( http://www.pryderockindustries.com/creative.php ) has some fan-made add ons to the setting.
I say check it out.
It's a non-canon universe that is left open to the players to use as they want. It also allows for all of his stuff in that things are very similar to what he is aiming at. Plus no Clans to monkey up things.
I am considering getting my group to use it as our default universe setting for our games and mod it as needed. Less baggage to monkey with and we can add in what we want.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (07/25/21 01:32 PM)
|
Requiem
07/25/21 06:12 PM
1.158.209.145
|
Quote:
So the first lord did not control the entire network from the palace? Think about how this sounds.
Really?
Within any military system the issuing of orders and execution of those orders are completely two different aspects …
Just because a leader has absolute power does not mean that they have the ability to control the Administrative mechanisms that ensure the day-to-day running of the SLDF …
https://theforge.defence.gov.au/publications/year-life-staff-officer-and-general
and as clearly demonstrated by the evidence supplied (including the previous post) there is absolutely no way Richard Cameron had access other than the issuing of orders … he is not in an administrative position within a Government Agency to act on a daily basis …
so no, Amaris did not have access to the computer network initially – it took TWO YEARS for his people to regain control of the SDS system!
So, unless proof can be made evident this is an undeniable – Amaris did not have access!
Quote:
Yet taking the stored units in the TH meant upgrading his forces to SL standards.
Yes it does – with the following caveats …
First, as to the number of units stored within warehouses
Second, as to the number of units that can be manufactured prior to an attack by the SLDF
Third, as to the number of Amaris Units that can be retrofitted with advanced Royal Weapon Systems …
And this is the problem, how does anyone determine these figures given the lack of empirical knowledge provided? Thus it is the responsibility of individual GMs to determine this number on a case by case basis based upon the time it takes for the SLDF to initiate a concentrated attack upon the TH.
The only rational thought is a sliding scale – x – time and y – the percent of Amaris’ forces that can be updated – from a point (0,0) onwards – slope will have to be at the discretion of the GM.
Quote:
And what happened to the FC?
Irrelevant as to the issue on hand – apples and oranges – what the FC demonstrates is that two realms CAN merge into one! And this is exactly what will occur here … what happens thereafter is at the discretion of the writer (GM).
Quote:
The military prowess combined with the industrial might would have started a new round of nukes flying
Problem here is the fact that all WMDs have been removed from the equation … they no longer exist in my game … the Ares conventions will remain in full effect!
Quote:
As with all history, anytime a nation got close to being dominant, some other issue came up to prevent it.
Apples and oranges – though for a time the Star League did exist – they were dominant.
The issue of establishing a dominant empire is at the discretion of the writer (GM) – Canon is Canon – their writers are theirs – My alternate universe is another matter.
My harping on against the current story is due to evidently obvious errors when it comes to the story. How many times have I read something only do complete an in-depth analysis and determine facts do not line up with what is written or vast amounts of information have not even been included – just a brief overview and no explanation as to the underlying facts.
Quote:
If not for the Skye rebellion, the DC would be hurting very badly when the clans got in. The Comstar deal would not have happened, so that entire outcome of the 3039 war would have been a solid win for the FC.
Changes ….
Skye Rebellion … didn’t occur as the duke was executed by his son, a member of Kells Hounds and Heimdall!
The War of 3039 should have been CC – thus by 3050 the CC no longer exist in the game with the exception of the St Ives enclave.
The release of the Free Raslhague Republic can still go ahead and comstar can still provide the DC with mechs in payment – due to the rapidly approaching 5th and in all likelihood final Succession war if comstar cannot tip the scales …
So there is absolutely no problem whatsoever when the ‘so called clans’ arrived …
Though in my opinion, the SLDF should never have left, the TH (or a new Star League variant there of) should still exist; and as for the Clans they should be the remnants of Amaris’ forces expelled from the IS now returned to take their vengeance rather than professing to be a bastardized Nazi SLDF.
Quote:
But as the story plan was, the DC was needed to be strong in order to fight the clans.
And yet how many FC regiments just disappeared
The entire FC / DC culture of fighting was ignored
The clan invasion was so incredibly badly written it can only be considered a bad joke at this stage …
As for comstar – they can still exist just as a corporation rather than as a quasi religious sect … they can be the arbiters and enforcers of the Ares Treaty … stick by the rules of war or we turn of the HPGs ….
As for the destruction of technology due to the succession wars – ditch that also as a bad joke
Retain warships
Create new technologies etc new weapon systems – expand and empower old tech for the current game – eg. The light shield system …
The game and the History of the Game is at the whim of those who play it … you can stick with Canon or create your own … freedom to be whatever you want.
Quote:
But in the end, the nobles of the LC would NOT share power with the RWR.
Just as the FS and LC would not share power with each other ? sorry but no - the two will just have to learn to live with each other just as they did within the FC.
Quote:
The petition was not to stop the LC from seizing the RWR, but to stop the large amounts of forces from the RWR was bringing into the TH.
Comprehension and logic would indicate … when the RWR becomes a part of the LC – all military support from the former RWR to Amaris’ forces within the TH cease – he is on his own in the TH!
Quote:
purge
Can mean either killing them outright or can mean their forced removal from their position – in this case they are kicked out of the SLDF and are therefore now Civilians …. With Amaris takeover the question needs to be asked how many of these individuals will now join with Amaris against their former colleagues …?
All roads are open – it is at the discretion of the writer (GM).
Quote:
It wasn't that all the states decided to disband the U.S. Both were vying for the title of the U.S.
No – the north was attempting to retain the USA – the south wanted their own country separate from the USA North in order preserve what they believed in …
The old USA was dead as far as the south was concerned there is now two where there was one … So as per previous statements – the SLDF are not abandoning their posts just at the south did not abandon their posts – The SLDF are entitled to leave the IS – just as the south are entitles to leave theirs …. Or is the opposite true – the south abandoning the USA just as the SLDF leaving was illegal and morally and ethically wrong?
Quote:
Staying and trying to defend the TH, would have meant Kerensky was seizing control of the TH at least, or the entire concept of the SL.
You do realize that there must have been a civilian TH government post Amaris – thus by abandoning the IS Kerensky also abandoned this legitimate TH government at this stage?
Thus the new TH government paid the wages of the SLDF …
This is exactly the same as Germany / Japan and more recently Iraq … an interim government! How else are the courts, electricity, water, food, shelter, schools, medical facilities, police etc etc going to be re-established?
And by leaving - this is the government and people Kerensky abandoned!
There most definitely was a nation – it was in the throes of being reborn from the ashes to which both Amaris and Kerensky left it following the end of the civil war. People were attempting to rebuild their lives and their country. Kerensky abandoned them, their hopes and their dreams for a more prosperous life – the Star League may be gone but the remnants of the SLDF were still there to protect the civilians as far as they believed. By abandoning these civilians – their hopes and dreams – he abandoned all his morality and the right of being called a noble warrior … if he was not up for the job he should have stepped down and found someone who was!
And by abandoning them he and the SLDF that went with him proved he and them are no better than Amaris! TRAITOR to the core!!!
Those that remained are little better as they hid from all the wanton destruction – however this was all they could do given the size of the remaining forces …
And in this Kerensky also abandoned his former comrades in arms …. May his name forever be linked to traitors and cowards!
Quote:
So you did have soldiers do the suicide concept you wanted. How did that work?
How is it suicide when they lived? … they just morphed from SLDF to ComGuard …
Quote:
You are saying the houses would love to see the main protection they have against the other houses leaving them?
YES!!!
They have over time become the sword of Damocles held over the head of all – case in point The Lyran Capital World and the Massive SLDF Naval Fortress – by removing the SLDF all Houses are now once more free to pursue their own agenda without worrying what the First Lord and the SLDF may demand of them …
The Star League was but a pretty cage to which the House Lords were trapped within …
Quote:
The fact that the RWR was able to amass such an army scared the house lords, as they didn't know it was just the RWR or if it was all the periphery states. Amaris had more then the houses did in military hardware.
Yes, I agree that periphery states have become an unknown entity – however the SLDF have inflicted a vast amount of damage prior to their retreat … what is needed now is quantifiable data … this is where every House will be dispatching spies to the region to find out exactly their state of readiness … then with that information each House can formulate an appropriate response ….
Quote:
And you think they wanted to see the SLDF leave their realms underdefended?
Have you forgotten each houses response to edict limiting House military forces?
All Houses has cheated in some way as to circumvent the limited numbers ban – all Houses have a vast military at their disposal – they can now bring it out of hiding and for the first time in a very long time flex their military might once more.
So no none of the Houses are undefended by the removal of the SLDF – they all can now reassemble their formal Military once more without the interference of the Star League or the SLDF.
Quote:
Not a single state wanted the periphery to start invading their worlds.
How? Every Periphery State has been almost decimated by the SLDF prior to their retreat … they are now in a period of rebuilding … in 20 years time this is when the House Lords should be looking over their shoulder as to what is going on within the Periphery States.
Quote:
You might have 40 regiments of troops, but you can't cover all your worlds from attacks.
As shown in my recent forum regarding the Capellan Confederation – you can only cover important target worlds with Mech units - all others will have to rely upon conventional forces built and trained on their own world – with maybe some assistance from locally industrial powerful worlds who may have assisted with vehicles etc. for their defence.
Quote:
Empire Aflame.
You do realise that Empire Aflame may be considered a nod for everyone to create their own alternate version of the BattleTech universe … taking the multi-universe scenario to its extreme there can be an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of realities … you do not have to constrained with either canon or Empire Aflame as a writer it is at the prerogative of the individual to determine their own universe.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/25/21 06:28 PM)
|
welevelup
07/26/21 06:42 AM
14.181.255.129
|
hello
|
Requiem
07/26/21 07:34 AM
1.158.209.145
|
So let us assume Loki agents discovered a group of high-ranking Officers and Government officials, who rightly so are ‘concerned’ about a SLDF reprisal ….
Stefan has all but abandoned the Rim Worlds when he departed with the majority of the newly formed Military.
All that remains is an assortment of poorly equipped military and civilian force – approximately 50 mixed arms regiments.
Stefan’s regent Mohammed Selim is incompetent, vain, and desperate – willing to do anything it takes to save himself and keep himself in luxury …
When approached as to the limited options available to the Rim Worlds merging the Rim Worlds and Lyran Commonwealth was their only hope to stave off destruction … the idea of becoming peers of the realm also enticed many …
Allies would be needed to be found plans would be rapidly generated as weaknesses are identified as to Selim’s protection detail … whilst lists of individuals who needed ‘removal’ was also drawn up with care ….
The rub, however, …what is required is a simultaneous assault upon all key individuals, upon numerous worlds …and following this an agreement to merge the two realms between a new protective government and the Lyran Commonwealth and all before the SLDF arrive and initiate a massive invasion … (Not an easy task).
Let us say, for the sake of simplicity, the coup proceeded … Selim’s regime has been removed (for the most part) …
The new ‘Provisional Government’ informs the people as to the state of emergency befalling them due to Amaris blatant act of unwarranted provocation … they also inform the people as to SLDF’s intended reprisal, no less than the complete destruction and subjugation of the Rim Worlds …. They also inform the people as to a means of saving the rim worlds whereby the Rim worlds and the Lyran Commonwealth agree to a partnership … the two realms will merge and become one, however the Rim worlds will remain intact as a province … their culture and way of life will be protected … their children will also be protected ….
This will bring about riots from hardliners and even conflict as Lyran ‘Peacekeepers’ are assigned throughout the Rim Worlds …. to bolster their defence … the opposition could be even larger than first believed – a full scale civil war could be on the off …
The SLDF (Kerensky) and the DC will automatically attempt to derail the initiative ….
The Archon will state this is an internal matter and the SLDF can but out of it if they desire any assistance / bases within Lyran space from which to invade the TH …. He will remind them that their ability to acquire Lyran military industrial goods is subject to his goodwill in this matter ….
As for the DC …. Only a show of force along the border will (possibly) stop them form initiating an attack … if generals suggest thinking about the bigger prize the destruction of the SLDF and Amaris and what comes next (may) stay their hand (for now) or a series of incursions by the DCMS …. Upon Apollo (for example) … or if there is a civil war he could do absolutely nothing – stating this was Lyran Karma … loose forces now that would needed shortly if the SLDF (Kerensky?) fails
A document is formed and signed … the Rim Worlds becomes an additional province to the Lyran Commonwealth …. Whist the civil war rages
Over time these Amaris sympathisers are forced into the deep periphery where they undergo an exodus to the Amaris Cluster (formerly known as the Kerensky Cluster) …. There they form the Clans!
The issue is Stefan Amaris within the TH ….What would his response be, other than having a fit and executing the person who delivered the message(s) ….
Given that he is not the most stable of individuals with a penchant for explosive violence and unpredictability and bordering on being psychotic I would not put it pass him to do almost anything ….
Whatever it is it must be spectacular and with a massive Bang!
How about attempting to conquer Skye in retaliation whist at the same time as being attacked by the SLDF?
Its not rational but would it make for an interesting scenario?
Could he attempt to elicit the assistance of the DC against the Lyran state at the same time he is attacking them ? Thus expanding the War’s geometry.
Is there anything else that he could do?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
07/26/21 08:31 AM
1.158.209.145
|
So Lets consider what is going on ….
The Lyran Commonwealth are engaged against
Pro-Amaris forces as well as Draconis Combine Forces within the Rim Worlds Provence – and are allied with pro-Lyran Rim Worlds Forces ….
Along the Lyran / Combine border Lyran and Combine forces are engaged in battle …
Within Skye Lyran Forces are engaged against Amaris forces from the Hegemony …
Amaris is now fighting on two fronts – against the Lyran forces in Skye in addition to the SLDF
What makes this scenario so interesting is what the SLDF will do next …
Will they continue fighting just Amaris OR/-
Will they divide their forces at this stage – to attack Amaris whist simultaneously putting an end to the Lyran / Combine battles along the border (in order to preserve peace within the SL as per their mandate) … and if they do proceed along this route what happens when they reach the new Lyran Rim Worlds Province – will they (i) still attempt to separate the Lyran / Combine forces? (ii) will they recognise the legitimacy of the Rim Worlds / Lyran Pact or (iii) will they declare the pact a sham – forcing the Lyran forces to Protect the Rim Worlds against the SLDF – and at the same time they could still be fighting against Amaris supporters turning the whole situation into a massive quagmire …
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
07/26/21 08:28 PM
1.125.29.223
|
What if at this stage the “remnants” from the periphery invaded there is neighbours ‘in an attempt’ to regain what was taken from them during the Reunification War?
A multi-generation endeavour not only to build a new military, but also vast underground facilities – where people could live for decades if necessary … when confronted by orbital bombardment …
The SLDF believed the Periphery States Military were all but devastated, in reality, hidden systems had been established with vast military industrial complexes and dry docks for warship and jump-ship production …
Note: - at this stage I would also like to state, in my opinion, that for each House to establish their massive fleets that were utilized in the early first succession war there MUST have been multiple hidden military industrial facilities / dry-docks within hidden systems to bypass the SL / SLDF restrictions as to the size of their fleet numbers …. There should be hidden fleet bases / hidden military industrial facilities within all houses and the periphery …. The idea that everyone knew where all their military facilities were located MUST have been an absolute and utter sham!
Not only Periphery, Houses were also conducting clandestine construction of vast hidden military industrial facilities for the day the Star League became too tyrannical eg. First Lord Richard Cameron’s decision to ban weapons no more destructive than a laser rifle / hand grenade ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
|
|
Extra information
|
0 registered and 83 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 5137
|
|
|
|
|
|
|