Karagin
08/05/21 12:50 PM
70.118.172.64
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One thing that I believe CGL really dropped the ball on is the Free Worlds League.
In the rush to get the Jihad silliness into play, we all recall the next to useless sourcebooks with pages of jibberish that offered nothing of value to anyone, which seemed to take away from giving the Free Worlds League a shinny moment, well really a chaotic moment, in the spotlight.
Let's look at this. First, the entire Free Worlds League is a mess to start with, it's held together by fear or the other powers around them, in reality, they are a bunch of higher-level Periphery nation-states that banded together early on and got special status because of their alliances with each other.
Okay, that right there should have been exploited to death by the writers. It offers tons of events for the players, hey who doesn't want more scenarios and MW adventures? No, will you can go play in traffic then.
So we have this group that is pretty much going to collapse if pushed hard, and do they ever get pushed, the main driving force and normal scapegoat, House Marik just got the kick in the teeth that even the Civil War of theirs didn't do. They find out that ol'e Thomas is not Thomas but an imposter, yet this guy has been doing a better job than the actual Mariks ever did. Guess that had to suck for House Marik as a whole, pretty sure if it was my family finding out that an imposter can run things better.
So we get hints that things fell apart but not a large amount of coverage of this stuff. What would have been a fertile ground of the Word of Blake to make power plays and support buffer regimes along their shared border with the now-former Free Worlds League provinces? Instead, we get only bits and pieces about how there is some fighting and things just end.
Yes, we see the Regulians come along and join up to face the WoB, but what about the rest? What we should have gotten was a full sourcebook covering the break up of the Free Worlds League, which could have been a good way to make the whole silliness of the Jihad storyline better since we the players would have been able to get into the actual fall out from the attacks the WoB launched around the Inner Sphere.
Truly a lost opportunity.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
09/11/21 05:49 PM
68.169.149.5
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Free Worlds League has always been the runt of the litter in matters of player/writing interest. They were never as big a part of the story as the other four Houses until the Jihad, for three significant reasons:
1. The Anton Civil War storyline did not play out to much interest when first introduced. Unless you were really into House Marik or Wolf's Dragoons in the late 80s, it wasn't all that interesting compared to things like the 4th Succession War, or by the early 90s, the Clan Invasion. The only real source for a long time was the Wolf Dragoon's sourcebook, which was obviously Dragoon-oriented, not Marik-oriented so it only glossed over the events not concerning the Dragoons . They flushed out the whole Civil War storyline after these were written (mostly in Historical: Brush Wars), and it still pales in comparison to other short wars like War of 3039.
2. The Capellan-Andurien Succession War of the 3030s was similarly overshadowed by the 4th Succession War events. And the fact it occurred during the 20 year jump from 3030 to 3050, there wasn't any fiction to back it up at the time.
3. House Marik wasn't involved in the Clan Invasion game-wise. Sure they supplied a lot of equipment to others but they weren't fighting any battles. Since the game is entirely centered around battles, no amount of fiction or political intrigue really fixes it.
The Jihad didn't really get flushed out until around 2005 or so, meaning for the first 20 years of Battletech's existence, House Marik had much less to do in the tabletop game than the other four. So by the time they started flushing out Jihad stories, there wasn't as much interest form players on what the FWL nation or duchies did, compared to say, the FedCom, or Draconis Combine. FASA and FanPro never really stoked the fire on the FWL from a tabletop gaming aspect, hoping the political situation would be enough. So when the Jihad erupts, we care little about what happens in FWL space (except maybe on Gibson) and when the League breaks up into duchies, I think everyone had a kind of "meh" moment. (Especially since we'd already seen the breakup of a Successor State a couple of times already.)
They do seem to be a lot more interesting in the late Dark Age though. The fractured states start coming back together (and fighting a war with Regulus over it) and finally face off against the Clans. A book like Combat Manual: Marik would have gone a long way to building up some more intrigue in pre-Jihad era, but of course, the CM series got cancelled.
For a long while I've wished TPTB had a spokesperson for each major faction, to bounce ideas off before publication to ensure their faction got equal treatment (or something in exchange for being shortchanged on something else.) But they don't do this and only a small group of people decide the course of events, which leaves a lot of factions in the dust. A lot could have been done (and perhaps, still could be) with the fractured duchies during Dark Age by presenting stories or campaigns in which the duchies fight with each other or against their larger neighbors in the Lyran Commonwealth and Capellan Confederation, but we didn't see much out of them until Regulans take Atreus and the reconstituted League takes it back, the six-way fighting over Irian, and the Wolf invasion. Hard to argue with your assessment that they've missed opportunities here. (You know the situation is bad when the Marian Hegemony gets more press and has had more fights than the Free Worlds League.)
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Karagin
09/11/21 06:23 PM
70.118.172.64
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All good points, and I do agree they (TPTB) do need a person or persons to be there to say hey we have 20 things for LC, DC, FS, and CC, so how about 10 for FWL and 10 for Perphiery, etc...that would be going a long way to fixing some of the issues.
There was some info in the 20 Year Update Book, small snips in that. However, that was really it. Marik and the FWL had a HUGE level of push and were mentioned during the 3055-time line aka the new mechs and weapons and then we see Fake Marik and the rest getting some mention in the novels but that's it. No real in-depth sourcebooks or focus as you said and I think that really has hurt the game. The potential across the board for the faction to be a battleground is, and was, always there.
We are seeing some now, with the whole Wolf Empire trying to hold one and the rebuilding thing that Marik is doing but it would be nice to see more. What they could be doing is not just focusing on the Big Players, we don't need constant Fed-Suns Combine Confederation Fronts. We need a larger more rounded look.
They have the ability to go back and offer Turning Points scenario books and Touring the Stars stuff, as well as Historical sourcebooks on things like the Marik Civil War, and then give us how the Jihad fully ripped the FWL apart. All would be welcome.
The CMs likely got canceled when leadership changes happen, but that's an off-hand guess, given that they (CGL) still can't hit a deadline date 8 times out of 10. Yes, I said it, and given their track record is no better than FASAs or FanPro, it's a valid concern. I can get missed deadlines for PRINTED items (though not really) but when it comes to PDFs and Ebooks release dates, yeah no missing those is showing signs of laziness and not really given a damn about meeting deadlines. However, that is a whole discussion in and of itself.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
09/11/21 07:28 PM
68.169.149.5
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Quote:
They have the ability to go back and offer Turning Points scenario books and Touring the Stars stuff, as well as Historical sourcebooks on things like the Marik Civil War, and then give us how the Jihad fully ripped the FWL apart. All would be welcome.
The new Turning Points: Helm is one such previous era book, with a scenario based in 3028. But it doesn't quite do what you suggest in that its a very small Marik force (23 mechs, all light and medium) versus the Gray Death Legion. Even when FWL gets involved in battles, it always seems to be on an extremely limited scope (and often as the bad guy)
Quote:
The CMs likely got canceled when leadership changes happen, but that's an off-hand guess, given that they (CGL) still can't hit a deadline date 8 times out of 10. Yes, I said it, and given their track record is no better than FASAs or FanPro, it's a valid concern. I can get missed deadlines for PRINTED items (though not really) but when it comes to PDFs and Ebooks release dates, yeah no missing those is showing signs of laziness and not really given a damn about meeting deadlines. However, that is a whole discussion in and of itself.
My greater concern is that previous era products like the CMs got cancelled not so much because of a leadership change but so staff could focus on Dark Age material. The fact that its been 6 years since TRO:3150 was published but the fiction hasn't yet passed midyear in 3151 is a grave concern. The story is developing so slowly that an unknown number of other pre-Dark Age material is probably being cancelled, ignored, or passed on so they can stop dragging their feet on getting ilClan started up. In fact, I was astonished to see TP:Helm published at all. I'm hoping this means I'm wrong and more previous era material is forthcoming, but the poor quality of TRO:GC and TRO:SW still has me worried.
I'm not saying its an easy job to craft a universe of events with such a detailed history, but in six years I'm sure I could have spooled off a few of the ideas to be written by dedicated fans rather than in-house. (Which they're finally starting to do with the Shrapnel stories, but could have done with sourcebooks years ago. And still could.) I'm sure that, if I were given the ten years between Historical: Operation Klondike and TRO: Golden Century, I could have come up with more than the writeups for 29 designs and a single page to cover 18 more, without leaving untied threads such as what happens with the EC designs using prototype weapons after the prototypes stop being manufactured in favor of full Clantech versions (i.e., Talon EC.) Ten years is a long time to get something wrong when a fan like me can identify a serious problem within a half hour of ownership.
So let me amend my previous statement to say that we need not just spokespersons for factions, but for the previous eras as well. Totally understand that Dark Age and ilClan should get the vast majority of new product, but as I've pointed out elsewhere, all these retcons being introduced to prop up ilClan Era storylines are messing up established history in previous eras (particularly the Clan Golden Century.) Someone at CGL needs to speak up and say, "if we do X, it creates a problem with Y, so how are we going to fix it?"
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Karagin
09/11/21 08:34 PM
70.118.172.64
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I am for all eras getting stuff, that way things are there for those who don't want to play current or don't care about the current stuff.
I really think more can be done with the Davion Civil War stuff which they would feed into the FWL needing attention, since that would allow a break from one , etc...
The fact that so much that has been cancelled for things that caught so much flak, should tell them that folks want more than just cool and new, they also want older eras filled in more. I mean look at the KS, it should have told them that the older eras are STILL popular and thus need attention as well as having new stuff.
For example with the FWL, if they did a couple of books on the Mairk Civil War, that could give us a nice tie over from the Third Succession War ending and then look big action and the start of the build-up to the Fourth War, etc...
Even going as far as fleshing things out more so we can see that the FWL does serve a purpose to the game and it is not just there one step up from the Periphery powers.
Really wish we would get real House Sourcebooks again and not these Handbooks, talk about a joke and a half. True Housebooks that gives us everything up to either the ilClan Era or right before say 3145. Which would be right on par with the original Housebooks. The Housebooks really did bring folks into wanting to play factions. My brother really like the FWL because they weren't so tight-knit as the other Houses and he liked the background for the whole thing.
Small things go a long way in a gaming system and I agree it is hard to keep things cool and fresh, especially with a larger universe setting like the game has, but if you don't put out things or use the tools then folks won't support it and we end up with the Ultramarine silliness like GW has, really we already have that in droves in BT, you know certain pet factions that roll through without really being beaten down.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
09/11/21 10:32 PM
68.169.149.5
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Quote:
but if you don't put out things or use the tools then folks won't support it
Or worse, put out poor quality material that turns fans off. TRO: Succession Wars is the example I've been using lately (like Ray's interview). It really should have had three goals:
1. Replace TRO:3025R entirely in the product lineup. Parts of TRO:3039 could be replaced.
2. Cater to new players by sticking to level 1 tech only. Ok to vaguely mention level 2 tech from Star League (as TRO:3025s have always done) but generally only on a superficial level. Do not publish Level 2 designs, except in limited cases that can explain the non-Level 1 stuff at bottom of page, like the presence of CASE on the Shogun SHG-2E.
3. Support existing players by giving new variants of level 1 units that reinterest them in playing this era. The Zeus ZEU-6Y comes to mind. There are a few dozen "Lost Sheep" that I expected to be in the variants sections, and aren't (like the lostech refit for Galahad GLH-2D, the Hetzer with Flamers, and UrbanMech that mounts AC/5 and machine guns, each of which is mentioned in canon but not yet described in TRO or record sheet.)
Instead, we get a book that just lifts pages from TRO:3039 and TRO:3050U. (Not even bothering to correct the typos on them!) Important unseens like the Stinger, Wasp, Phoenix Hawk, Warhammer, Crusader, and Marauder are absent (though present in TRO:Clan Invasion, indicating a lack of desire to mix text from TRO:3039 with art from another book, though this did happen for Ostscout.) Meanwhile mechs that don't survive the first decade of the First Succession War (excluding ComStar's secret cache), like Shootist and Spector, or mechs that are already practically extinct by the Succession War era, like Gladiator, are present. Devastator is included despite canon proof that not one single Devastator participated in any of the four Succession Wars (six DVS-1 prototypes built in late Star League and the ones that survived the Amaris Civil War left with Kerensky, with the first prototype DVS-1D built at NAIS in 3033.) So it fails goal 1. The 25 year old TRO:3025R is still the better TRO for Succession War era: though its missing the unseens which weren't available when published, it at least doesn't include mechs it shouldn't.
Almost all the variants, deployment, and notable mechwarrior text relates to Clan Invasion, Civil War, and Jihad era. Spector is an especially egregious offender here too, with the published SPR-5F being introduced in 3053, making the entire entry worthless to Succession War players. Goal 2 was a spectacular failure.
And with almost all the material lifted from earlier books, there's nothing new to satisfy goal 3, minus one or two paragraphs here or there. I paid real money for it and I don't think it offered me a single thing I didn't already have in TRO:3039 or TRO;3050U, with an entry or two that source from TRO:3058U or TRO:3075 instead. Had I known this, I wouldn't have bought it, or at least dampened my expectations for it. But as a primarily Succession Wars era player, it was presented to me as the new definitive source. Instead, it was money not well spent. Rather, to get new mechs, CGL is asking me to spend $4 here and $6 there for all these little 15 page PDFs, without any clear idea from the cover or page of two of a sample of whether they'll add to my Succession War era experience or not (or for RecGuides, if they'll add to my pre-Reaving Clan experience or not). If I see Touring the Stars: Whatever or Spotlight On: Whomever, how am I to know its worthwhile or not to me? But when I see a book titled "Technical Readout: Succession War", I'm going to damn well think it is - even though in actuality the majority of it is not. So not only is goal 3 also a failure, it pissed a longtime fan like me off by false advertising. 20 years ago I could go into a game store, flip through the pages of a source book and be confident it was a good buy or a pass. Now that its all digital and I only see the first few pages, I have to treat it all as gacha because the one time it should have been absolutely clear from the cover what was inside, it wasn't.
Sorry we're getting off topic here, but the general idea is the same: TPTB could do a a lot more for earlier eras, and by taking the easy way out, they aren't help anyone, new players or old.
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Karagin
09/11/21 10:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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I agree, it was and is the same with the Handbooks for the Houses, they lifted just enough of the original content from the Housebooks that it looks good but then give you a ton of needless information that could have been simply added as an appendix to the end of a NEW Housebook or given us unit books for the main House specific units and a formula for fingering out the rest. But instead, they squandered things to give us copypaste-style books.
One of the cool things about the Housebooks was you got surprises, like the Cap-Con Housebook, you got TWO new mechs (well new for the time) and their stats PLUS stats on new equipment aka the ECM unit on the Raven.
There is a ton of stuff they could have run with from the original House Marik Housebook that could have even been used to explain some of the silliness of the Jihad storyline, in the FWL Housebook there is mention of robotic factories that are rumored to be somewhere in Marik space that even to the date of publication of the book were still making Mechs and vehicles. That would have been an excellent loose end tied up and a bit of hey we gave the FWL another nudge and spotlight moment. Instead, it's just a forgotten footnote.
Another area would have been to give us more about the Periphery wars along the Marik border with their neighbors and showing out that could have been a major proving grounds for new tech from the FWL and an area to expand into making things open up for a new front, etc...agian more squdander oppurtunities.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
09/12/21 06:49 PM
68.169.149.5
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Quote:
Another area would have been to give us more about the Periphery wars along the Marik border with their neighbors and showing out that could have been a major proving grounds for new tech from the FWL and an area to expand into making things open up for a new front, etc...agian more squdander oppurtunities.
I'm onboard for that. Reunification War has some great opportunities to learn more about the nascent SLDF and the state of the FWLM at the time. We know about the Ostwar, but not much else - and it's still a little confusing that the Ostwar is primitive tech, but apparently present in the SLDF forces subduing the Magistracy when few, if any, other primitives are.
Also, we heard a lot about pirates like Hendrik Grimm, Redjack Ryan, and Paula Trevaline, but not much about the thorn in Marik's side, Marius O'Reilly. The Marian Hegemony was treated as one of the named bandit kingdoms in early BattleTech material. (In fact, before the Tortuga Dominions if I recall correctly.) Marius was apparently fond of raiding the Marik outlying worlds (as were pirates operating out of Astrokazsy), and its not until Sean that the focus changes to conquering neighbors like the Lothian League and Illyrian Palatinate. But I know of no scenario book or campaign that deals with FWL vs pirate concerns, while there's a few that deal with the Lyran, Draconis, and FedSuns attempts to quell piracy along their borders.
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Requiem
09/12/21 07:30 PM
1.158.137.81
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With regards to the FWL
If you are going to use Sarna as a reference, may I suggest
First, get a map of the FWL as to the era in question -such as the Star League for example (have an excel sheet open) then slowly go through every world in question - this will provide a vast quantity of information about the FWL and the SLDF.
Helm – SLDF Base – Nagayan Mountain Complex – Largest munitions dump constructed. – and what became of this underground complex thereafter?
Cerignola – possible pirate base – extensive network of natural caves and catacombs.
Campoleone – The Voidjumpers’ memorial home for ex-spacers and one of the most important worlds for information brokers.
Gatchina – SLDF Outpost base XXXiX-416 – which is near a vital Starlane and is used to hunt pirates in this area.
Augustine (Gethsemane) – a Jesuit Seminary
Kyeinnisan – Casino World
Restitution – Media Industry world – experts in communications, data delivery and image and video manipulation (say story regarding falsified images could lead back here)
Second You need to identify every character at that time and read about their backstory – especially in regards to their family and associates.
Eg. How the Star League was formed due to the FWL / CC war … The Third Andurien War etc this a massive information that can be used to produce an interesting backstory especially when you realize the daughter betrayed the father at the time …
Suggest having a look at my forum pieces re the FWL – there are some interesting points contained there in from canon
Third, tie it all together with the history … and you can find some interesting points … but it will require some work ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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