Requiem
08/05/21 02:05 AM
124.184.171.41
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A huge drop, like removing nukes in general will change the course of the river dramatically.
An inundation is far removed from a drop.
Changing events just by removing WMDs does not have to change events – and now conventional warfare determines battles not who utilizes the most WMDs.
The battle goes on.
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To change any of those events will change what happens.
Alt History: Events regarding the Amaris Coup d’état Campaign – proves otherwise.
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And yet you continue to bag on the canon writers as you say their story is wrong?
Limited in their scope, depth and options available – also cheating comes to mind, when you write a rule / cultural aspect / character psychology / previous tactic used then ignored / previous ability to move units / remove whole units altogether etc etc towards your characters and then change them just so the pet clan units can be preserved – when they should have died proves that we are back to the same problem as the war of 3039.
Poor writing.
Thus at this point I use my freedom and express my disappointment – I then write my alternate view so that others can consider options.
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So partisans would never be allowed to fight against the SLDF in anyway they could
What is happening within all Periphery States – also what are some pirate units up to?
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The changes presented will not allow the world to continue on in the original storyline after they happen.
And yet Alt History: Events regarding the Amaris Coup d’état Campaign – proves otherwise.
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So that point doesn't hold up in the logic of the game.
Legal Law of War – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war#:~:text=The%20law%20of%20war%20is,critical%20terms%20of%20international%20law.
Once WMDs are initiated they cannot be stopped – so just remove them from the game – simple no logic problems if there are no WMDs to begin with.
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You think that if Kerensky was replaced the SLDF would still have gone in tooth and nail against Amaris?
If this is the desire of the writer, then yes. It is possible to get the same outcome if so desired.
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BATTLE OF TYWCROSS
So I have no choice but to use exactly what they say I am allowed to use ?
Am I allowed to bring in a custom unit?
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then yeah he's dead and all that we know about him doing all the super cool stuff in the rest of canon is now gone.
So? Write in a new character to take his place.
The depth and scope of the change is up to desire of the writer.
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IF the SLDF doesn't leave the Inner Sphere or does leave but is three times smaller than what it was in canon, that means the Clans won't be the invaders in 3048-3050.
Or the Clans could be the descendants of Amaris … or they could be a complete unknown tribe of humanity that was lost and have now returned ….
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is so hard for you to grasp about this part?
That I am very content on the way I write.
After reading thread, https://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php?Number=53054 , what is the difference than what I am doing as I really cannot see the difference … how many logical issues have I brough up, then backed them with vast amounts of documentary evidence to prove the point, only to be told no and with no explanation as to why other than saying it is wrong.
So this means no to my alternate Amaris Kerensky civil war?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
08/05/21 03:20 AM
124.184.171.41
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Ranks
The Brandenberg Edicts of 2413 established the rank system for the LCAF, issued by Archon Katherine Steiner, they were adapted from those used within the 20th Century (with a few changes).
Mannschaften (Personnel) Military Ranks – Wehrmacht (defense power) – primary branches are:
• Heer (Army) (H)
• Kriegsmarine (Navy) (K)
• Luftwaffe (Aerospace) (L)
Enlisted Ranks
Recruit – H – Soldaten – K – Matrose – L – Flieger
Private / Seaman Apprentice – Gefreiter
Private / Seaman – Obergefreiter
Private / Seaman – Huptgefreiter
Lance Corporal / Petty Officer – Stabsgefreiter
Corporal / Petty Officer – Oberstabsgefreiter
Non-Commissioned Ranks
Sergeant / Petty Officer – H/L – Unteroffizier – K – Maat
Sergeant / Petty Officer – H/L – Stabsunteroffizier – K – Obermaat
Staff Sergeant / Petty Officer – H/L – Feldwebel – K – Bootsmann
Staff Sergeant / Petty Officer – H/L– Oberfeldwebel – K – Oberbootsmann
Master Sergeant / Chief Petty Officer – H/L – Hauptfeldwebel – K – Hauptbootsmann
Master Sergeant / Senior Chief Petty Officer – H/L – Stabsfeldwebel – K – Stabsbootsman
Senior Master Sergeant / Master Chief Petty Officer – H/L – Oberstabsfeldwebel – K – Oberstabsbootsmann
Officer Aspirant / Cadet Ranks
OC – Sergeant / Petty Officer – H/L – Fahnenjunker – K – Seekadett
OC – Staff Sergeant / Petty Officer – H/L – Fahnrich – K – Fahnrich zur See
OC – Master Sergeant / Senior Chief Petty Officer – H/L – Oberfahnrich – K – Oberfahnrich zur See
Offiziere – Junior Officer Ranks
Second Lieutenant / Ensign – H/L – Leutnant – K – Leutnant zur See
First Lieutenant / Lieutenant JG – H/L – Oberleutnant – K – Oberleutnant zur See
Captain / Lieutenant – H/L – Hauptmann – K – Kapitanleutnant
Stabsoffiziere – Senior Officer Ranks
Major / Lieutenant Commander / Squadron Leader – H/L – Kommandant – K – Korvettenkapitan
Lieutenant Colonel / Commander / Wing Commander – H/L – Oberstleutnant – K – Fragattenkapitan
Colonel / Captain / Group Captain – H/L – Oberst – K – Kapitan zur See
General & Flag Officer Ranks
Brigadier / Commodore / Air Commodore – H – Standarten-Fuhrer – K – Flottillenadmiral
– L – Luftkommodore
Lieutenant General / Rear Admiral / Air Vice Marshal – H – Generalleutnant – K – Konteradmiral
– L – Flugdienstleiter
Major General / Vice Admiral / Air Marshal – H – Gruppenfuhrer – K – Vizeadmiral – L – Fluglotse
General / Admiral / Marshal – H – Obergruppenfuhrer – K – Admiral – L – Marschall
Field Marshall / Fleet Admiral / Marshal Air Force – H – Feldmarschall – K – Flottenadmiral
– L – Marschall Luftwaffe
General of the Armies – Archon Reichsmarschall
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/05/21 01:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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Nukes made the history of the storyline the way it was. Without it, there are far more worlds accessible to the game as well as changing the outcome of more then a few battles.
The Sea Skimmer fluff in TRO 3025 had used a tactical nuke to destroy a damn on Skye to prevent the DC from taking the world.
The entire history of the Terra would be changes as removing nukes also means removing power generators, as someone will use that as a bomb.
The concept of the story being a river doesn't apply when you are talking about changing some of the necessary things. You might as well remove mechs. Or nerf them. Or empower the to be real kings of the battlefield. Remove warships as you wanted to. Does the same thing. It destroys the entire game, as the entire space battle scenes for the SL change.
Really?
Alt History: Events regarding the Amaris Coup d’état Campaign – proves otherwise.
Your fiction is being used to prove that events in the Battletech storyline can be altered, yet end up with the same result. I can make up a story where the SLDF nukes the house lords into oblivion, and the people love them for it. It does not change the fact that the entire future afterwards is changed completely.
Get really creative and make new names for leaders, maybe even changing the names of the nations as well as other things. So far, changing a few things to tilt the outcome towards your favorite canon characters and nations is alls that has been put up. You don't want to admit you can't get away from canon, as it means the entire reason for ripping the game disappears.
The entire history of Terra is forever changed without the WMDs. Without the nuclear bomb, nuclear reactors would not have come about. There would not have been a race to make the bomb, so finding out you could use it for normal power generation would have been unlikely. Having Biological and Chemical warfare removed would have prevented a lot of medical breakthrus as well. This is also removing the rage moments of the world, as they would not have been there. Germany concentration camps used those items. Horrible as it is, removing this means Isreal would not have been formed. So already things are changed beyond just a footnote.
So your complaints about the logic holes in the game were fake? Saying logic doesn't support the story lines actions, but yet you just said that logic doesn't matter. You are saying everyone in the SLDF believed the same thing Kerensky did? The lure of becoming the head of the SLDF if Kerensky died, and risking that to attack the defenses you know are there as they were once your own wouldn't cause a change of tactics or even just ignoring it until the houses decided to finally figure out they were next if Amaris stayed?
What is an adventure pack? A recreation of the battle that happened in the game. Bringing in your own custom units, or changing the rules means you are not fighting a battle that happened. It becomes another death match using someone elses design. At this point, why bother with even trying to play an historic battle?
So? Write in a new character to take his place.
So now magic comes out yet again. A main character dies, so you simply spring in a new one. Major logic fail here, as the son of Justin and Candace was there to do specific things, yet now you suggest some new character can just walk in and not change the entire chain of events? Maybe you forgot Kai was part of the force the fought against comstar when it initiated operation Scorpion, as well as gained respect in the Falcons Elementals. Now you suggest someone else will become Victor's friend and just do this. How is the story line consistent?
The war can be changed, but the future beyond it can not run in canon. The events that lead to specific things, like Kerensky taking the SLDF out of the IS, and that also means Nicholas does not have the events that causes him to even make the clans, doesn't come about. Trying to force other events to push it back on course is doing the same thing you accuse the writers of.
In the end, you are doing what you accuse them of. Pushing things so your favored faction/character wins, by changing the past.
Show an Alt. Create a new future. Continuing to say canon bites yet not getting rid of it suggest you are writing a story that bites because it IS based on canon.
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Karagin
08/05/21 01:55 PM
70.118.172.64
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If all he wants to do is tell us that BT canon has issues and problems, then he is talking to the echo chamber, we already know that.
Removing WMDs and warships does nerf the game. Those two things are the bigger stick and while warships in the hands of the players are not the end-all of things, they can be if abused however, so can custom mechs, but allowing players to have the ability to toss a nuke or a hundred around is a bad idea and it was a mistake of CGL to ever give rules for their use.
The issue is Requiem doesn't seem to understand alternate history. He continues to think that he can make his changes and the end is still going to be the same. Not how it works. Even minor changes will cause ripples and the idea that the story or history is a river is the worse analogy I heard to date. We can look back at events and see where a simple pause could have stopped certain events, or if someone had not gotten involved with a certain faction or someone was not saved from slipping in the shower, all of that means the outcome of events going forward will be different. Yes, the war will likely happen but for example, if the arrow had missed Harlod that day then William and his Normans would have been harder pressed in the fight to take England. Would they have eventually done so? Maybe, but it would not have been the victory we know from our current history. It would also mean that the character of England what happens going forward would be different. Just different enough that minor things stand out and that is what makes alternate histories interesting.
The TV show SLIDERS did pretty well at that, not always but most of the time, and that allowed the show to be popular and offer a nice series of what if's. I have listed several authors who do a good job at showing alternate histories and if Requiem would read the books/series he would find that the characters are fleshed out to deal with the events of the times that happen AFTER the POINT OF DEPARTURE, and again Requiem, a POD is where the alternate history makes it turn AWAY from the known historical outcome and then goes forward to show what changed and how that plays out. This is something you need to really grasp and so far all you have done is continues to show that you will not take heed of it or understand the concept.
Plenty of folks here on Sarna have shared their ideas for Alternate BT universes or events, and all of them have enough changes that while events are similar they are different enough the entire outcome of the future history of the game would be vastly different from what we know. Which is the point. You want things to be different, okay, yet you always want the same canon events to happen but only by your way of thinking, not how it works. If you add in a new character or event chain to the history of the universe the is Battletech changes will ripple outward. My examples about Allard are good points of departure for someone to run with. Things would have been totally different for Victor and the FedCom military if Allard was out of the picture as a warrior fighting alongside them. That would then affect how the outcome of the invasion corridors go for the Falcons and the Wolves and possible it would mean they don't have a harder time against the FedCom because Victor doesn't have Allard there to be that voice of reason and logic. It also means that the issues between the Allards and the Laios would also play out differently, because now the rising star is a cripple (or dead) and thus the other siblings of Kia's aren't the same caliber, thus no real threat to the Celestial Throne. Thus no assassins in the middle of the night killing Justin, and possibly no real change for House Laio overall. Maybe.
So right there you have a cause and effect chain, one that can be adjusted or modified to make it far worse or slightly better or even over the top, but things will have changed across the board. That is the part you keep ignoring.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/05/21 03:37 PM
45.51.181.83
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The example of this thread shows canon story line can not be maintained when events are changed.
To increase the military size, would mean there would be no reason for the SL to send so many of it's own troops to put down the Periphery rebellion that Amaris would not have gotten his shot. If agreed upon, the houses would have had to send more to deal with the periphery.
Saying the tech level increases in the houses, then there would come a time where they would not need the SL. The fact that all the houses would expand their armies with higher tech would have made the SL war come sooner, as the houses would have ignored any directive to stop such an action. The Periphery Rebellion would have ended the SL before Amaris could do anything. The fact the 1st succession wars would probably have started sooner, and the houses would have found the SL didn't have enough pull to keep the houses from demanding the Cameron line step down as first lord so one of them could take over.
It is also likely the houses would have went after the periphery on their own. Or started annexing worlds as they had the power to do so. If any opposing house said anything, then they would have their own examples brought out. ALL the iS houses would be doing this to the periphery realms. The houses would have struck the SLDF immediately after the Amaris war (if that still happened) with the idea that their military would allow them to remain on the throne.
As the first lord would not allow the tech to be let out, he would have had to really start more unpopular actions, possibly including arresting scientists and such that were working on forbidden tech. There would also be strikes to obtain that tech from the other houses as well, lest they be left being conquered from not having it.
Simple logic comes into play.
Double sinks would allow one house to dominate their neighbors within a few years of it being produced. This is especially true for the navy. Half the sinks means more weapons and armor can be put on those ships. This also allows better space defense weapon platforms.
The idea of the Starwars defense laser system comes to mind. I can strike out, but you can't do anything back mindset comes about.
This also means the SL would have to advance their tech faster to keep ahead. Or worse, one of the houses gain something approaching clan tech before the SL break up. The Blackbox being made by one of the houses over the SL, meaning they could sidestep the SL intel services even more.
Look at what the single raid the LC did against Defiance before they gained control of the assets. They stole the tech to making mechs. This changed the entire future from what it would be without it. As it was plot armor, it was always meant to be, but once out, it changed the balance of power.
But the logic that comes from such a change is ignored, as it removes the advantage for the favored house. Better tech before the 1st war means the outcome in 3025 is different, as the higher level tech isn't likely to have been forgotten. If the SL was the only one that could produce it, that makes it more likely to be lost when the SL worlds were destroyed.
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Karagin
08/05/21 04:26 PM
70.118.172.64
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How is the tech going to increase? The Terrans kept the good stuff for themselves and while we know the Houses were working on their own cool high-tech wonder toys, that means for the most part the high-tech isn't getting to the House militaries or the citizens.
A real-world example, the US Army has tons of high-tech things in its arsenal, it's an open secret that the majority of this stuff NEVER makes to the main body of troops. And by the time it does make it down to all the other units, it's already been replaced by something new. I doubt very much if that will change in the future.
The idea of the high-tech wonder stuff is important is that the Terrans can use the stuff as part of trade agreements and favored nation status, plus it also means the spare parts and such ONLY come from Terran factories, thus a stranglehold on things. So that alone would keep the high-tech OUT of the Houses hands. Money talks.
If the SLDF doesn't go fight FULLY aka en-masse in the Periphery, then there is NO WAY IN HELL Amaris is going to be able to pull off his coup. Not sure what is so hard for him to understand hat.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/05/21 08:10 PM
124.184.171.41
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Nukes
Nukes are just a flashy prop!
Worlds can be come inaccessible through environmental conditions, economics the mines runs out, depopulation due to a gold rush on adjacent world and the major corporations decide to pull up stakes and leave …
Battles do not have to include WMDs – conventional vehicles only – and still get the same result.
Do you miss when Battletech first started and there were no WMDs at all … or do you believe the game has been improved by just Nuking everyone and everything off the table when you want to act like a petulant child?
With dams, if just a modicum of research was undertaken, engineers build into the structure a means of demolishing the structure through conventional explosives if they are placed in the correct locations. Then the force of the water behind the dam will cause it to fracture. Then the dam busters, No. 617 Squadron RAF, Operation Chastise – Fact, this is a true story! … they did attack the Mohne, Eder, and Sorpe dams in Nazi Germany with Barnes Wallis’s bouncing bomb. Conventional Explosives at the back wall with the water at a certain depth .. the water then does all the work!
As for nuclear generators … why does any world need them at all? … the game uses Fusion Engines that lasts for decades, runs on “light” hydrogen – no waste products that need long term storage … they can be used in place of a centuries old energy system that has been proven to be detrimental … and they are made on mass for all shipping so really what is the point of re-creating nuclear when your worlds are engaging in mass and constant warfare – if a Fusion power plant is damaged does it affect the world? – if a nuclear power plant, however, is hit you have a massive clean-up problem … REALLY? Why would anyone knowingly create such a powerplant on any world where they know they are going to be constantly attacked? Then there is the economic issue … Fusion Engines are manufactured en mass for the game … thus costs are low …. How much does a Nuclear reactor cost – and how about the fuel – cost / transport safety etc …Very high cost … so again what is the point of establishing a financial black hole on any world that is also toxic to the environment … then there is also the fact that Fusion Engines can be moved from one world to another (transportability) … can this be said with Nuclear?
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story being a river
Once you allow Warship WMDs into the game the idea of having Mechs in the game at all becomes ridiculous ….
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Palmyra_Disaster
Really? warships raining death and destruction on any world – all military forces can be easily identified using advanced detection equipment and then sterilized from the world; fleet numbers are now way more important than regiment of Mechs numbers or an Ayres convention where they are not allowed anywhere near the world and a return to Mechs it also still allows for space warship battles – please choose?
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ripping the cannon
Creating new individuals is a way to create new dynamics / plot lines within the story line – you can make it as flashy or as benign as you want … freedom of being the author.
You can stick with or move away from canon … freedom of being the author.
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Without the nuclear bomb, nuclear reactors would not have come about
Within the 20th Century yes …. But where are we in the BattleTech universe and what era are we in? They are superfluous, it would be like saying we need horse and carts brought back en mass …
Pharmaceutical research is now involving biological warfare? Really? Again all of this occurred in the past We are discussing the far future .. where in all likelihood they do not exist, that is unless you want every terrorist group within the IS running around with WMDs – nuclear, biological, chemical as it has now become incredibly easy to manufacture in the distant future! Wow, this is going to be such a great game to play now that is has devolved down to whom can kill of the other with WMDs the quickest! (Satire)
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logic
Is it believable … is it credible … is there another way … can engineering / R&D find a way forward (where the game says it cannot) … is there a tactic / strategy that should be considered that wasn’t used …. has Cannon killed off strategies / units that were used previously … did cannon even consider the idea (logistics – tyranny of distance …) … and the list goes on and on
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adventure pack
Staying with the same tired version of events that is.
If you want to go down this track … fine, if this is what you want. It is just not for me.
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character change – how is the story line consistent
Its not he same – as the writer you can use this – so Kai dies, how about bringing in a sanitized or not so sanitized Kali Liao (likes it rough) … again at the discretion of the writer … and would make for an interesting plot twist Kali Vs. Omika for Victor if you wanted to add way more spice to the human side of the game.
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The war can be changed, but the future beyond it cannot run in canon.
This is at the discretion of GM / writer … plot twists …. If they want to go with canon or deviate …. Nicholas does not have to be the sole creator of the Clans … Amaris’s children could have … other exiles from other time-lines could have …. Just create a credible back story …
So, the conversation is now about me, not with me!
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Those two things are the bigger stick
If they are in the game … then the players must have access to them. Or are we going back to Turtle Bay .. the Clans are allowed sole use of all WMDs and the IS are told by canon - NO you are not allowed anything as a counter measure to any Clan Warship scenario other than conventional aerospace fighters?
Great game (satire)
Ever considered there could have been multiple Battle of Hastings spread over years that could have resulted in the same outcome?
Question – If the past is fixed and cannot be changed, and the future is fluid, does this mean the future is not there until we arrive to make it happen; or is it there waiting for us to change it? As defined by trillions of variables all occurring at random time intervals …
Question – when discussing Alternatives to the Clan Invasion war of 3050 I was told that it was too deviant from canon to be considered a reality and every major plot twist taking the story far away from canon was wrong. Now I am told I am too similar … which is it?
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Saying the tech level increases in the houses, then there would come a time where they would not need the SL.
The Star League is supposed to be the Camelot of its day … if it was run by a dysfunctional family who believed in reading the entrails of offering to the gods that is … it was only partially to do with technology, it was supposed to be about morality, human rights, ethics etc …. it also includes treachery ….
Sorry to burst your bubble but the first Lord of the Star League was based upon how many promises regarding trade and economics and where the SLDF was only to be peacekeepers like the UN has now - guards to preserve the borders and to protect humanitarian efforts …. In order to for each house to sign onto the accords how many promises were made with regards to technology and free trade economics?
Treaty of Geneva – combined economics / single currency – allow the export of some advanced technology
New Avalon Accords – Security Peacekeepers
New Avalon Accords – Security Peacekeepers
Treaty of Vega – following many concessions (which were never elaborated upon)
All this would have to be made public with the final document The Star League Accords …
Economics – Single Currency – export of advanced technology
SLDF - Security Peacekeepers
Each House is to supply the SLDF a quota of soldiers and Military Technology to the SLDF each year …
So each house is required to reduce their own military production by assisting with the establishment and the future increasing of the size of the SLDF (where as the 2650 accord restricted their own military size)
And what were each House to get out of this, please do remind me?
Where is the logic in any House joining a Star League where it is clear to see all they are going to get is a good <BLEEEP>.
Technological disparity has been in existence for how long now? And how many use it as a bully pulpit?
Research and Development of military equipment – any house could have easily surpassed the TH – why the TH was superior all the time suggests more of ComStar tactics in reducing technological advancement …
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LC Defiance Raid
Really? Question – how long would it have taken the LC to R&D their own Mech rather than stealing it? 1-2, 5 years more R&D before they were able to establish their own ….
Example – Nuclear proliferation – how many countries had access to Trinity and how many didn’t and yet now they have the bomb.
LC may not have needed to steal the blueprints whatsoever – they could have had their own ready to go and it was merely just an information fact finding mission ….
The same with all other houses, how long until their R&D should be able to create their own version of the Mech?
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How is the tech going to increase?
And yet how many times within the game have House units made a side deal for tech and how many times should reverse engineering of new equipment on the Terran market assisted House markets …. Copyright law is a major problem now … now so in the far future when you can smuggle out tech so that it can be reverse engineered?
Why have advanced military tech if you are not going deploy it … train with it and get it ready for combat operations? … yes this makes absolute sense (satire)
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thus a stranglehold on things.
And yet if you change one thing in the machine it is no longer covered by copyright the House can make their own via reverse engineering and they can mass produce within their own factories thus profits and kept internal (rather than paying a licensing fee) … yes money and internal security procedures does talk.
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Coup
And how many exercises are conducted outside the TH? And how many coups involved officers within the chain of command and not external to it? If Amaris had a daughter, he could have even married her to Richard …
There is more than one way to start a Coup than starting a war within the periphery.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/05/21 09:41 PM
45.51.181.83
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Do you miss when Battletech first started and there were no WMDs at all
Actually, there were WMD, just not something the player had access to. The idea that planets were nuked, and even some scenarios suggesting areas of worlds were still radioactive where there. When the first rules came out, radioactive materials were needed to build reactors, which got pulled out after a while, making the whole need for the reactors shielding to be unnecessary for dealing with a leaking radioactive reactor.
There were other instances that had bio and chemical weapons referenced as well. The entire back story of the SLDF being hit by and using them was there.
Yes, you can destroy dams without nukes. The fluff was using nukes to stop the DC from taking Skye without using them against the DC troops directly.
With saying you can't stop using WMDs if you start using them, then you would have to remove them from ALL of history. Meaning the time frame of WWII. So which is it? Remove them, or just don't use them?
I had a lot more done up, but timed out, and don't really have time to re address the rest at the moment.
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Karagin
08/05/21 10:16 PM
70.118.172.64
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Having WMDs in the story is fine, but not for players to use. They should be completely in the hands of the PTB.
Every power in the Inner Sphere has used WMD. Be it nukes or bio or chemical weapons, they have all used them and if pushed too far, will use them again.
There is a point where they stop using them, when they run out of targets for them.
The use of that tactical nuke was I believe after a conventional attack had failed to blow the dam up.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/05/21 10:53 PM
124.184.171.41
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Quote:
just not something the player had access to
And therefore, a prop, that was never really thought through - and as the player now does have access?
Reactors that in all reality were never required … therefore no radioactive materials … therefore no bombs.
The entire WMD being included into the game was a mistake that we are paying for now
The Jihad era and beyond – the game is devolving – it’s canon history has become less agreeable to the point I must create my own to restore some sanity …
YES! Remove them all from a point in history say here and no further! There should be a point where humanity becomes so revolted by them that the concept can no longer be tolerated by anyone.
The use of any of them within the game is removed once and for all!
If you want to extend logical thought through to its end then what do you get if you allow WMDs into the game? M.A.D. is the end-by-product – all inhabited worlds will be destroyed by armadas of ships who’s one solitary purpose is to eliminate all life from an enemy world – Palmyra is the fist step towards this reality!
Fleets of ships are now king of he Battlefield – BattleMechs are no longer required at all as we have the orbital bombardment to keep worlds in line – this is what would be said about Palmyra … it is the World War I of it day, as not only did it cause an immediate successor, WWII, but it has directly or indirectly served as a background for everything since ….the only issue is that the canon writers stopped … where is Palmyra II and III each increasing in the intensity of world destruction via fleets to a single ship?
Losses in each of these tragedies will be unprecedented in all of BattleTech’s canon history, and will not stop the wars to come … they will go on and on …
This is why you have your Battle of Marne! And as a consequence locked into an endless morass of WMD wars ….
The choice, therefore, should have been made prior to Jihad -from the ashes of Turtle Bay – A new Clan / IS Ayres treaty the total and utter extinction of WMDs within the game. But that time now is lost and now we have to contend with the Jihad and Palmyra.
So the choice is, for me at least, create an Inner Spere where all WMDs are no more – where I can change history to create more and more dynamic scenarios – where I can create wars / adventures that allow your team to venture far beyond the stand game as is?
This is my choice – revealing the story as conflict and politics and the common woman / man tells us create spice and transformation …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/21 03:19 AM
45.51.181.83
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It is human nature that some will always turn towards WMD to at least extort others into doing their bidding, while others have the idea of destroying them all. Players should NEVER get these weapons, though technically, any sort of military vehicle could become such a thing.
The radiation issue was that the fusion engine was originally said to have radioactive materials in them, which is why they needed shielding not only in the reactor area, but also in vehicles. This part was removed rather quickly. Nuclear reactors are always radioactive in nature. It is part of how they produce power. To be honest, nuclear energy is far more efficient then coal and gas power. Given the future does have ships they can reach outer space easily, with some ships actually going to a star to scoop up fuel, it would be very easy to dump off the waste materials in those stars.
The Jihad era looks to be very lazy writing, as there wasn't a boogie man they could come up with to challenge the houses. The clans were their last real shot of something other then each house going after each other. Now the clans are part of the IS, which kind of allows conflict there, but the whole thing falls apart with the lack of building clan equipment.
But the RoTS and Jihad would not exist if something was altered in the past. But oh well.
Fleets of ships were never a problem. Naval weapons on ships that could use them is. And the lack of naval weapons used in ground batteries to destroy those very ships, except as part of the SDS shows retcons do not work most of the time. Had they had such things, New Avalon would not have been taken by the DC in the later story lines.
But again, the cycle goes back to if no one can land forces on worlds, then the game dies. As stated before, warships should have remained dead.
Again, nukes were a deterrent for war. They are not bad in their own way, but the fact there will always be someone willing to use them. For the most part, no one uses them as they know they will not get away scott free if they use them. And there is also the reason why resources have to be rather scarce. No one wants to nuke them, as they need them as much as the enemy does. If they can get them elsewhere, well nukes will fall like rain. Stupid, but then humanity was never good about greedy people trying to extort and threaten everyone. Power corrupts sentiment.
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ghostrider
08/06/21 03:33 AM
45.51.181.83
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The issue with sticking with canon after trying to alter events shows the complaint that canon is built on faulty logic doesn't work. A simple change this part doesn't fix the issue, and most of the time creates more issues. Something that seems to not register. I have not seen anything that fixes the issue like you think.
Is it believable … is it credible
The answer comes out to be no for the most part. This is not about some galaxy far away. It is set in the future of humans from Terra. Having something like the Star League not falling means the events of 3025 are not credible if they follow anything close to canon. So much would have changed, and this fact is completely being ignored with the story line. There is no real way to spin this and be believable or credible.
Adventure packs are set up so you can fight the 'historic' battles of the game. It is highly unlikely it will play out as the storyline has going. But it does give you the chance to do so. Having the rules in place helps keep the scenario close to the 'actual' battle as described. There will always be flukes that come about, such as the head shots killing the person that is supposed to survive. Even just a bad die roll, like falling down and landing on the head killing someone has happened. But changing the rules means you change the potential outcome. The concept of say not being able to travel along a side of the map for one group would suggest that they would not even try, as they were trying to do their job, and avoid being stuck behind enemy lines.
Pilots don't want to die most of the time. So standing in the middle of the enemy column isn't a bright idea.
The idea of RWR forces becoming the clans is possible, but they would not come out the same as Kerensky's clans. The entire basis of them would be far different then Nicholas. It is doubtful the clans would put a restriction on the number of warriors in each force, as well as doubtful they would have waited so long. They would be more likely to try and conquer the IS just as the 2nd war started to end. There would be no guardian aspect in their mindset. They would be out for payback.
This is why logic says there is no way to use canon by changing things like this.
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ghostrider
08/06/21 03:43 AM
45.51.181.83
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The difference between companies today and something like the SL is how things would be handled. The SL would not stop and wait years for a trial for someone stealing their tech. They would go and kill all involved in such an action, while today would have the affair tied up in the courts for years. There is only one nation that produces certain items. You coming out with something like it means it is probably stolen, and they will investigate it. If true, then people will die. But until then, any production of the item will be found as a guilty verdict and stopped with force.
You keep showing the very facts of humanity, yet want to suggest that corporations and people in power won't do nasty things to stay there. There will always be someone using their power to prevent others from gaining on them. Leaving politics out of it, there are so many greedy people in corporations that do just that. Generic drugs are prevented from being made for 5 years after the name brand comes out. Yet the corporations make sure that they tie the generic versions up in court so they can extend the lack of competition to 12 and even 20 years. Something like a weapon would definitely be keep in the hands of the specific few for as long as they could.
As mechs came about due to the myomer breakthru, it is very possible the houses would never have gotten mechs if not stolen from the SL. That is not saying it would be impossible for them to research it. But the thing comstar did with HPG research would be done by the SL and other houses, though the other houses would try and steal the research while trying to deny it to another house.
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Requiem
08/06/21 06:04 AM
124.184.171.41
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Quote:
It is human nature that some will always turn towards WMD to at least extort others into doing their bidding
Completely and utterly disagree!
Though it is your Inner Sphere not mine … if this is the track you want to take and your group is happy with it, enjoy.
Question – what happens if your next assignment is to run a clan / IS warship blockade and your side doesn’t have any warships to protect them? Or your era is early clan invasion – what then?
Just going to ignore the fact that your side’s only hope is Nukes or a Kamikaze run on the bridge of the ship by one of your aerospace fighters?
Or just create scenarios where this type of event can never occur to your unit? And in so doing sensitize the games dynamics because of nukes …..
There really is no good answer … the game devolves all because of the need to have a limited game by limiting the response of one side versus the other – and makes a complete mockery out the idea that combat engineers / civilian engineers can make a short-term gap … ie the PT attack dropship!
Question – what happens if your group rebels and states that they want nukes etc – even if it means replacing the GM?
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it would be very easy to dump off the waste materials in those stars
If there are no nuclear powerplants there are no problems …
Problems –
Transport to the power plant
Storage in the power-plant
Nuclear melt down
Waste product storage
Waste product transport – especially within dropship – explosion in atmosphere!
Transport in space – pirates stealing the cargo – dirty bomb!
Then there is the issue of cost for all of this versus a fusion power plant where it can run on water!
Really, having a nuclear power plant it is not wort the hassle.
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jihad era
Massive error … as stated previously … kick out all the clans from the IS (that do not defect), then Rave round 2 with the Clans within the Deep periphery (as can anyone explain how you are expected to live next door to a Mongol warrior in peace?)… new house could emerge, new challenges etc
As for the IS low level wars for the time being and after a couple hundred years the SL Mk 2 can fall over in another spectacular war or the reformed Clans from their own Star League with the new Houses and it is war between the two variants of star leagues … there are many concepts other than the Jihad era (Flop of a history!)
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warships
Too late just like all WMDs Warships have returned - thus another option has to be created, or the point of having Mechs at all flies out the window – then there is the point of armed merchantmen where are they in the game if you can still make Naval weapons?
So there really is only one solution – Ayres rules of war! Or change the game to Naval as Mechs have been completely superseded!
And New Avalon has been taken! And just like before all clergy were executed!
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There is no real way to spin this and be believable or credible
Then please provide reasons why.
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Having something like the Star League not falling means the events of 3025 are not credible …
Comes down to semantics – the Terran Hegemony and ‘others’ may have survived retaining a smaller Star League – whilst others are off on their own (attempting to take over the remining Star League so as to become the new First Lord … thus the Lyran Commonwealth and Federated Suns Team up to take over the remaining Terran Hegemony … and become the Federated Commonwealth in the process …
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Adventure games
To fight warts and all …
Not my idea of fun using another person’s Mechs and People
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they would not come out the same as Kerensky’s clans
Lets hope not! Deranged is not a good idea …
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how they would handle it
Mercenaries is always a good idea …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/21 11:52 AM
45.51.181.83
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The tactic of hit and run in order to draw out a defender with large groups of smaller units has been effective in the past. Most clan warships did not have fighter escorts built in, and normally didn't have that much when carrying fighter carriers.
This is much like a raid. This is not saying there will not be losses, or that the entire group won't get wiped out. Given the higher to hit numbers, it is very possible for smaller ships to do some major damage to a warship and survive, This does tend to have issues with the game suggesting dropships are not as numerous as you would want to even try this.
Actually there is no NEED for nukes or Kamikaze runs. Simply focusing attacks on sections would work. As stated in one of the novels, ships focus their attacks on the engines to slow a warship down, then hit the nose/bridge area. Without a fighter escort, clan warships were weak to fighter attacks. The naval grade weapons don't target them. The game does not seem to have any rules for special targeting of things, like a shut down mech can have against it. It also doesn't seem to allow a fighter to basically hover or even just grapple with a warship to focus it's shots on a single location. The only issue with warships is when they were first brought back, no one in the IS would know where the bridge is. After that, it would be the main focus even before the engines, as it doesn't seem the bridge is well protected. Non nuclear bombs and large missiles, such as Arrow IV, should be used to target such locations. This is even before naval missiles were used.
Most of the examples explain why the canon line can not be maintained with most of the changes. The FC would not come about with a large hostile nation sitting in between the two states. In fact the LC would be hurting in the economics department, as the SL would prevent regular trade between the LC and the FS/CC. They would be limited to the DC/FWL/TH for the most part. During times of peace, they could trade better, but in order for the FC to work, they would have to destroy the TH. Since the TH would not become part of it, that is not going to happen.
The treaty between the DC/FWL/CC during the 4th war only happened because Comstar made it happen.
Which also brings up the question on if Comstar would have even come about if the SL lived? There is a whole slew of issues with that one.
Not my idea of fun using another person’s Mechs and People
The fun in the game is playing. Not having munchy units and over powered characters means you actually have to use tactics and think to win.
But beyond this, the statement shows why you believe you can change important chunks of the story and still return to canon afterwards. It would be like saying Katrina was captured by her uncle and put to death, but the FC was still formed. You just added in a new Steiner to take the LC from the uncle to make it? Doesn't have believability to it, nor is it credible. But these concepts still don't seem to sink in.
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Karagin
08/06/21 05:41 PM
70.118.172.64
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The big issue here, besides Requiem's not wanting to listen to advice, is that IF we go with his idea that the Terran Hegemony stays, aka the SLDF pull into its borders and defends it against the now hostile House Lords, then EVERYTHING changes from that point forward.
Nothing would be remotely like the canon we know, tech would not fall, worlds would not be in any better shape, but some may not see the horrors of the WMD use but others will. The Houses will be fighting on multiple fronts as would the Terrans, and really who is going to gang up on who? The whole concept means only one group would be the logical target and that's the Terrans...
So there is no logical need for a Lyran-Federated Alliance. Now a Mairk-Lyran Alliance that could be logical in this Requiemesquest universe. Or a Capellan-Mairk Alliance or a Capellan-Suns Alliance or maybe a Terran-Combine Alliance.
If it's not fun to use someone else's mechs and people to play then how do you play Battletech?
The cool thing about player-made mechs, rules state folks have to agree to use them in a game. Cool, so I guess that's one way to play, no homemade mechs. Or the player-made mechs are allowed for all players to use since the design would eventually spread all over the Inner Sphere.
As for another person's people...if you are talking about characters and such aka NPC, who said you had to use them? I don't like half the characters we have in the canon universe, I find many to be shallow and badly written, but then again I don't play canon-based settings. My group has pretty much run its own twist on things, and since normally we are not dealing with world-changing events the canon characters aren't an issue. IF we need to bump up against a canon event or setting, then we adjust things to allow our staff to work for us.
I am really starting to believe that many of you think folks play canon as if every battle has to be fought on a world that is being attacked by X or Y group and your forces are part of those canon units, while that might appeal to you, that's not how the majority play.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/06/21 07:19 PM
124.184.171.41
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Quote:
Warships
After fighting warship engagements for how many centuries no one has come up with a way of protecting the engines from aerospace fighter attack?
And after the first attack run no one learns from how the Inner Sphere wages war and decides to implement counter measures?
Also considering when the first Arrow IV Anti-ship missile was introduced – 3071 – Really?
Bring in Clan Warships and don’t ever provide the IS with an effective counter measure – What the ? Not even Nukes!!!!
Treating the players of the IS as the enemy is a great way to lose people to other games!!!!
As for damage between capital and standard – isn’t this very low when considering the sheer size and armour of a warship?
This is why everyone, in my opinion, needs to bring in house rules and dump the canon rules as to what is and what is not allowed in …
Quote:
Most Clan Warships did not have fighter escorts built in
Conqueror – 100 Fighters
McKenna – 50 Fighters
York – 50 Fighters
Texas – 40 Fighters
Liberator – 30 Fighters
Aegis – 20 Fighters
Cameron – 20 Fighters
Corone – 20 Fighters
Fredasa – 20 Fighters
Molniya – 20 Fighters
Nightlord – 20 Fighters
Sovetskii Soyuz – 20 Fighters
Black Lion – 18 Fighters
Peregrine – 10 Fighters
Whirlwind – 10 Fighters
Vincent – 10 or 6 Fighters
Congress – 6 Fighters
Essex – 6 Fighters
Lola III – 6 Fighters
Volga – 2 Fighters
Carrack - Nil
Potemkin – Nil
As for the bridge – haven’t many of the ships pictured have a large span on glass on the upper hull that would be illuminated by the light within? Also, Airlocks and Bay Doors – would they have markings on them to identify their locations?
Also, wouldn’t every House have records of warships (including schematics) from the time of the Star League or even pictures of them from tours on board – people serving on them – etc etc?
So the idea there is no information on them is a complete and utter improbability – just the same as the loss of all information on all specialist topics is sooooo ever believable !!!!!!
Quote:
The FC would not come about with a large hostile nation sitting in between the two states
Conjecture only.
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the LC would be hurting in the economics department, as the SL would prevent regular trade between the LC and the FS/CC.
No, as proven above with the signing of all treaties the original star league was primarily there for economic (free trade) and UN border security details only! It only morphed into the despot Overlord with a massive army / navy later.
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but in order for the FC to work, they would have to destroy the TH.
Unless they go around the TH – through the DC or CC and FWL.
Or the TH provides a treaty and allows the FC to transport their military with no consequences.
Quote:
the DC/FWL/CC during the 4th war only happened because Comstar made it happen.
Really? – The biggest Army and the Biggest economy have just stated their intention to become one state and no one says hey, maybe we should form our own group to protect ourselves from the next succession war?
Quote:
the question on if Comstar would have even come about if the SL lived
Yes but as a corporation(s) not as a quasi religious group.
Quote:
The fun in the game is playing. Not having munchy units and over powered characters means you actually have to use tactics and think to win.
And I don’t use tactics in my games?
Quote:
why you believe you can change important chunks of the story and still return to canon afterwards
Quote:
then EVERYTHING changes from that point forward.
What is important is the machine not the hand on the crank
Topics – Star League era – Amaris Coup – succession wars – FC birth - 4th succession war – 3039 war – clan invasion can all be recreated as main topics as desired – new names can very easily be inserted with new plot twists thrown in – it is a very simple exercise in logic and can still be very credible.
Also, all technology can be retained and expanded upon if this is the way the writer wants to go …. Very easy!
Sorry but no - everything does not have to change ! I change certain settings but still the underlying play does not change.
Quote:
then how do you play Battletech?
My own unit, with the characters I have created - running long term scenarios ….
Edited by Requiem (08/06/21 07:23 PM)
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ghostrider
08/06/21 08:53 PM
45.51.181.83
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First off, the reintroduction of warships were mainly based on SL versions. The clans used fighters, but it seems they were not normally used in space, but in atmospheres. This makes sense as the clans disliked vehicles for fighting. So instead of normal Vtols and fixed wings, they used Aerofighters.
Second off, where, other then the clans, did centuries of figthing warships come from after the SL fell?
The argument of effective counters to warships is only valid AFTER the IS got up to speed with naval weapons. But then the concept of no advanced weapons until the helm core would be a better argument. Even with Comstar trying to keep normal SL tech out of the hands of the IS, there had to be plenty of examples that should have been retroengineered, but wasn't.
The clans did not use fighters like the IS did, so replacing their bays with other things, like additional weapons or space for mechs would be normal.
Funny that the Bring in Clan Warships and don’t ever provide the IS with an effective counter measure statement is false. The IS DID get effective counter measures, though the use of them was not against the clans so much as other houses. The IS did get to build warships. Timing is the key.
One point about the location of the bridges. The IS finally got blueprints of old SLDF ships from the helm core. Otherwise they would not be in the books. This subject was brought up in other threads about having the bridge on the outside with all that glass. They should be close to the jump core to prevent such a strike from wiping out control of a warship.
No, as proven above with the signing of all treaties the original star league was primarily there for economic (free trade) and UN border security details only! It only morphed into the despot Overlord with a massive army / navy later.
Did you not say the SL would become a hostile state as the only thing left would be the TH portion of it? Once this happens war would start wiping out or capturing trade ships going thru the TH. Or did war change?
The TH/SL would not allow trade ships to move thru their areas if they were connected to hostile nations. Again, I have to question weither you understand warfare. The FC would not happen if the TH was still a state, especially if they were attacked by either the FS or the LC.
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ghostrider
08/06/21 09:08 PM
45.51.181.83
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Think before responding.
Really? – The biggest Army and the Biggest economy have just stated their intention to become one state and no one says hey, maybe we should form our own group to protect ourselves from the next succession war?
If Comstar had remained neutral like it was supposed to, the communications would have been denied setting this up, of force the FC to shut down the HPG between the DC and FWL/CC, they would have had to do it the old fashion way, and use jumpships to send communications. Simple facts.
No secured instant coms. Jumpships being seized as they would have to jump thru war zones in order to get to one another. Or did stopping the enemies from communicating with each other get dropped from wars?
Comstar was formed to keep the HPG network alive. If the SLDF didn't leave, why would this be necessary? It would remain as part of the SL, not become their own company. And Blake would not be in charge at any rate. IF and that is a big IF, they were spun off into a 'neutral' company, someone loyal to the person in charge would be appointed, not Blake.
And I don’t use tactics in my games?
From a lot of the responses in the forums, it is questionable about how much, other then dropping your full forces on everything, that is done in tactics. Always hear how everything comes from one base, and you send everything you have. SO brute force seems to be the main, if not only, option you use. The posts are what we have to go by.
The TH being in existence, even in a shrunken state, would have prevented a lot of worlds from falling into the hands of the houses. Some of those worlds do have mech factories on them that the houses used to create their armies. Not just defiance but others. As stated before, Dieron was part of the TH. That would mean the DC would not have the DIeron district.
As the SLDF had the major facilites to product warships, how long do you think the houses could withstand them or even try to attack TH worlds?
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Requiem
08/07/21 05:50 AM
124.184.171.41
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How many times did the IS ascertained themselves to be a threat to a warship?
Battle of Radstadt
The Flying Drakons, Tyra Miraborg, and the Dire Wolf is about the only one I can remember and that involved 24 IS aerospace fighters and 5 combat dropships Vs. the Dire Wolf (Sovetskii Soyuz Class Warship) – 4 Overlord class Drop-ships and 10 aerospace fighters.
Which again shows how the IS were hobbled against when fighting the Clans!
The Drakons should have been an 108 aerospace strong force; No aerospace ship killer missiles; Nothing resembling that they should have been prepared in advance for contact against warships, after all it was common knowledge that the Clans possesses them and they were escorting the Norseman and Haakon Magnusson. So where were any real defences against a clan warship - why were they not prepared for the unexpected? In my opinion they should have at least a couple of nukes on board when you consider the number of nukes that were flung around during the Jihad era! (Did no one raid the nuclear vault!)
During the age of war and the Star League Era how many warship battles occurred?
The argument of effective counters to warships is therefore valid – where are the documents regarding tactics? Didn’t anyone ever decide to look in the library and dig them out once reports came in that they had identified Star League Era Warships on the Battlefield? What were the records department of the military as well as civilians who researched them as a hobby doing (just like those today like to research fleet ships / historical military information / or even information held within the audio-visual vaults doing? Taking a nap?
The idea that all knowledge has been expunged and included this as well now shows how absurd the hypothesis is as to Comstars ability to expunge information from all Houses!
So where is any preparation by any house as to how to engage a warship? where and when are IS aerospace fighters conducting mock attack drills – the Mechwarriors have simulators don’t they? So where are the aerospace versions and how hard would it be to create training programs based upon historical information?
Really the Clan invasion is a mass of problems that were never though through at all!!!!!
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Timing is the key
Really???????? - The first Arrow IV Anti-ship missile was introduced – 3071 – 21 years AFTER the Clans invaded. So, Yes the timing is perfect (Satire!!!!)
Quote:
The IS finally got blueprints of old SLDF ships from the helm core.
And again, what were the department of records etc doing?? Taking another nap or tea with bickies this time?
Quote:
threads about having the bridge on the outside with all that glass
Problem with this is what did Tyra Miraborg do when she rammed her ship into the Dire Wolf? And whom did she kill? And why were they standing there? Etc….
Quote:
Did you not say the SL would become a hostile state as the only thing left would be the TH portion of it? Once this happens war would start wiping out or capturing trade ships going thru the TH. Or did war change?
You do realize that you are discussing two completely different times here?
At the start of the Star League – economic (free trade ) + UN security Force
Some-time later on in the middle and at the end of the Star League – very hostile the First Lord begins to use the SLDF as her/his “personal” attack dogs against the Great Houses as a political weapon.
None of the Great Houses are in a position militarily to fight the SLDF – as all of the houses have contributed together to create a Vast military force for the First Lord – and he has decided that all of the Great Houses must also be limited in their scope – so really what are they going to do? Fight a war they have absolutely no chance of winning – OR – build a second army in secret for the day when they can take on the First Lord and the SLDF?
Quote:
The FC would not happen if the TH was still a state, especially if they were attacked by either the FS or the LC.
Conjecture – Not facts!
Quote:
If Comstar had remained neutral like it was supposed to, the communications would have been denied setting this up
Question – what is the diplomatic corps for? Such as relaying messages from one house leader to another.
Comstar is not the only means of communication.
Quote:
Comstar was formed to keep the HPG network alive
And every house didn’t have the same desire to keep the HPG network alive – and they too realized the necessity of such - military, civilian etc?
Start killing them off and everyone will be left blind and dumb to attacks and it is back to the pony express which really does not serve anyone – it is in the best interest of every house to establish a non-attack clause when it comes to a HPG.
Quote:
And I don’t use tactics in my games?
How many times have I discussed a complex military attack / defence strategy or battle for that matter? Eg. From the Roman Empire Second Punic Cannae all the way through to WW1 / WW2 and beyond … then using them as examples …
For example – why did I suggest utilizing psychological warfare upon true born – why did I suggest attacking the Clans Logistics chain within the periphery and the effect this would have to their front line forces – especially when it comes to reinforcement via a sibko system – why did I suggest creating hunter killer teams on clan held worlds with one purpose to kill off the garrison then escape with everything and everyone else – then there are so many other strategies that were incorporated ….
Quote:
That would mean the DC would not have the Dieron district.
So? Ever considered that the Great Houses would have other facilities in hiding or they could even manufacture new facilities on other worlds to compensate?
Quote:
As the SLDF had the major facilities to product warships, how long do you think the houses could withstand them or even try to attack TH worlds?
Question – how many of these facilities survived the Amaris / Kerensky War? So how long is it going to take to rebuild them then start rebuilding ships.
Also again how many hidden shipyards should each of the Great Houses have if they have all implemented a plan to create hidden army / navy to one day fight against the SLDF? The Taurians and the Rim World were able to pull it off so why not the Great Houses?
Also consider –
The Seven Samurai – The Magnificent Seven – Battle Beyond the Stars – and even an anime version ….
The medium (or era or the cast of the story) is not what is important
What is important is the underlying story that provides the narrative from A to B …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/07/21 11:35 AM
45.51.181.83
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The IS was hobbled against the clans?
Have you not heard the entire thing of the IS not having vast amounts of resources like ships?
The group the encountered the Dire Wolf was running from another battle, doing the uninhabited system jumps to get away from their earlier fight. Oh yeah. Fleets don't scatter, nor does a single ship flee when they have the leader of a realm aboard when they are losing a fight.
The encounter is pretty normal with the exception of the clans having the warship. I don't hear you saying the CC was hobbled during the 4th war. Nor did you say anything of the Periphery being hobbled fighting the SL
Another point is the large ship missiles did not exist through out the game until 2750 came out. Had they existed, then planetary invasions would have been far harder to do, as dropships would be wiped out far faster then they were. The 4th war, hell, almost every war that the anti ship missiles would have been in would have not had a ground battle.
So they put out the missiles to help fight against the warships. Hmmm...
(Did no one raid the nuclear vault!)
Counter question. Did no one know of the hidden worlds to even attempt to raid the vaults?
The entire game has issues with the history. The biggest issue seems to be a lack of continuity and play testing where the testers try to cheat with things, such as the pulse/TC issue. The RIfleman IIC being a prime example.
Oh? The first warship was after 3071? I thought they started coming on line in 3055. And that would have been earlier if not for Comstar delaying engine part delivery to the FS. Capital ship weapons were coming on line before then as well, otherwise the FOX would not have been armed.
The issue of having the blueprints and being able to accurately hit the area in aerospace is a problem with the rules. There is no specific targeting of a spot in aerotech. At least in the books I have. That might have come out in Battlespace and beyond.
Tyra ramming the ship, penetrating the armor at just the right time when all the people where there is no fluke or accident. It was plot armor. As the Dire Wolf was about to hold a meeting, it was the most likely place to have it with the Ilkhan. Clans are not known to have ballrooms on their warships. And go read the thread about the placement of bridges when on a starship. The only reason to do so is because someone wants to look outside of a window to see. Everything else is capable of running from inside the core of the ship.
You do realize that you are discussing two completely different times here?
I love this one. You obviously lost comprehending this. The FC started forming in 3019 or so, with the end result coming in 3030 or so. The SL was supposed to have fallen over 200 years in the past. With the alt, it did not die, but moved back to being just the TH. During this time, it would have been at war with the other houses. So explain how this would be different times when it comes to stopping the enemy houses from contact? Or taking out trading vessels, diplomatic ships and the like? Preventing enemy ships from just using their territory to go thru? They would not be just Terra, and it would be very likely the DC/FWL/CC would not allow ships thru their area either.
Another fact that seems to have slipped your mind is the SL suffered from the Amaris war, but instead of leaving the SLDF stayed. It is funny that at 95% losses, they were still larger then any house fleet, but yet were having issues dealing with the Perihpery before Amaris struck. But when the 1st war breaks out, do you think the houses would not combine to hit the SL worlds? Even without cooperating, they would do so. The LC HAS to take Defiance. Otherwise, they would have lost far more then they did. Hell, they might be like the CC in terms of territory they have if they don't take Defiance.
Conjecture – Not facts!
Based on facts, the FC would not have come about if the SL survived. The conjecture is saying the FC would form. Having a hostile TH between them, would prevent most of any efforts to even talk, much less organize. The TH would retain control of the HPG, which means transmissions will always be suspect.
From the looks of the map of the TH from 2764, a large chunk of the FS was part of the SL. More then a quick double jump. So even keeping half of that would mean the diplomats would have to be in TH space for a few weeks to months. No command routes as this is hostile territory. And that is just to set it up.
Look up the TH map. It shows that the houses would not have gained the mech factories that they relied upon in order to fight the succession wars. The situation in 3025 would be no where close to what is was in canon if the SL survived.
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Karagin
08/07/21 11:50 AM
70.118.172.64
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Clearly, Requiem is not listening to anything said, he has made his mind up that even with major changes to past events the future of BT (aka what we know happened as canon) will still happen as written just because he thinks it will.
Every point we have countered with, from showing him how Alternate History actually works when writing it to logical points about how the still existing Terran Hegemony would be in the way of and would be against the FC forming is not going to be seen by him, because as he said, he doesn't want to play with other people's mechs and characters.
So seeing that we are getting nowhere with him, I believe it might be time to stop interacting with on these Alts and move on to other things.
I am all for someone defending their ideas, but even I am willing to listen to the counter idea, might not agree with them but willing to listen, and for every counter point we have given to show why none of this works as he wants, all he keeps doing is restating the same things. Reminds me of those who defended the Jihad storyline and how great it was for the game. Yeah, that didn't end as folks thought it would for sales and status of the game, but that's a different thread and topic and we have beat it to death around here.
If Requiem wants to believe that he can still make canon events happen even after he changes past events in major ways then he is playing with Alien Space Bats and falls into the trap those things bring into play.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/07/21 12:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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Comstar was allowed to take over the HPG network as the SL was the one to maintain it before hand. So basically it went from something like the communications department in SL to a company that was sponsored to run it, with all the people that were working on it staying in their place. The idea that the houses ran the ones in their borders seems to be incorrect, though understandable that one would think this the case. If it was, then transmissions running thru it could not be trusted for say someone trying to contact their home nation while on a mission or even just setting up some trades.
Now with the SL remaining, the neutrality would be shattered. The SL would be an enemy nation. This would lead to fights and expelling the techs that work on the HPG network. To avoid doing so is leaving a huge number of potential spies in charge of your coms. Simple fact.
it is in the best interest of every house to establish a non-attack clause when it comes to a HPG.
It is in the best interest of every house to establish a ban on nukes. What happened to that one? How about attacks on jumpships? WMD? This will always be broken when someone feels the end result is worth the risk. Taking out the power generators for an HPG is a smart idea when you want to isolate the world. Then when you take the world and the enemy can't do anything about it, you rebuild the generator. Unlike some of the video games, you do NOT take out the dish or other parts of the transmission sections. It is also likely that since the SL didn't fall, there was no monopoly on WHO could build an HPG network. Remember all those little things like the Mobile HPG vehicles? They would still be in production.
For example – why did I suggest utilizing psychological warfare upon true born – why did I suggest attacking the Clans Logistics chain within the periphery and the effect this would have to their front line forces – especially when it comes to reinforcement via a sibko system – why did I suggest creating hunter killer teams on clan held worlds with one purpose to kill off the garrison then escape with everything and everyone else – then there are so many other strategies that were incorporated ….
This is strategy, not tactics. Most make a mistake of thinking they are tactics. Tactics is using what you have on the field to best advantage. Also, these concepts you put up are tried and true things done in the past. Something you love to quote. I could say win at all costs. Is that really a tactic? Not really.
Relooked at the TH map with writing the responses. Not sure how this: So? Ever considered that the Great Houses would have other facilities in hiding or they could even manufacture new facilities on other worlds to compensate? Fits with the DC not having their district capital, but there lies an issue with after the Amaris war. In canon, once the SL was disbanded, the DC attacked the FS starting the first war. Unless something major has changed, that would not give the houses time to construct new facilites before the war. Seeing the map, I can understand why the FS was in such a bad position. All the worlds in the TH region they picked up would have spread their forces out pretty thin. The FS would have been hurting if they didn't get some of the factories they did at the start of the 1st war.
Given the resentment towards the DC for helping Amaris, the SLDF may well have hit into the DC to prevent them from becoming a major threat. A lot of this also depends on if Kerensky himself took the throne to run the TH. It is possible some of the house worlds would have defected to the SL. More then a few would see they either defect or become the vassel of an enemy house.
So again the great alt story line needs to be change in order to bring about the increased production to even begin to compete with the SL. It isn't even done and yet needs another rewrite. Hmmm. Sounds like canon and each time they retcon something?
And this might actually drive home the point that the events in the past had to be changed before you could even work on the 'current' timeline, or even 3050. The blackhole of logic is so large, the future is so fragile that it falls apart with a few simple questions.
This is not saying I have thought of everything, as more things come to mind each time I think about it.
Where do I get a copy of Alien Space Bats? Sounds like fun.
Edited by ghostrider (08/07/21 12:11 PM)
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Karagin
08/07/21 12:34 PM
70.118.172.64
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"Alien space bats" ("ASBs") is a neologism for plot devices used in an alternate history to mean an implausible point of divergence. Or Departure.
They aren't fun. Writers often fall into the trap because they want things to pan out only one way and forget the golden rule; one change will cause other changes, etc... Then they write this cool story that is almost believable right up to the point that their hero(es) are doing the most insane stuff, and you are right where things, in reality, ended up with no real reason.
For Reqiuem, it's the idea that he still wants canon history to happen as it does, but with his ideas still, workable historical moments and the thinking that those changes won't affect the timeline is crazy.
He has shown that he confuses, as you pointed out, strategy with tactics. Even though you did a good job of explaining it each time, he still doesn't understand that the two are different.
I can have the strategy that I want to win the next BT game I play, and I can think about how to make it happen, with mech choices and thinking about what maps to use, etc...that is all strategy, but once the first dice are rolled for initiative, then starts the tactical part. Okay, so the other guy moved his Warhammer into those light woods, and his two Jenners are moving to my left flank while the Wardog is moving over to support the Warhammer, all right so I need to stop the Jenners; I will move to cut them off with ALL four of my mechs, let's see a move to the heavy woods anchor there, then move two mechs to the hill on the left flank and fire as I can.
Maybe that will help him...maybe?
Whether Kerensky or one of his Generals being in charge of the TH, the Houses would not be thrilled since they would still be in the same predicament that they faced before the SL was formed. Who is the bigger threat in both the short term and long term?
Could the Suns crush the Capelleans in a similar way as the Fourth SW showed us? Even with the TH still there and both them and the Combine breathing heavily at the border looking for signs of weakness?
Sure, the Suns COULD go all in and try to crush the Capelleans, even doing it, so it wasn't noticed at first in the same manner as the original take on this, BUT the difference would be they would still get NO corridor to the Lyrans, so that FC idea is dead in the water still. They would then exchange a single border shared with just the Capelleans to one now facing not only what's left of the Capelleans, but now they would be facing the Free Worlds and their military, (doubt the MIIO would be string up trouble like they were in the canon line and if they were, it would not be on the same scale) along with still having the Terrans and the Combine to face, not counting the Periphery powers.
Also, who says they will even be as successful as the canon version of this event? Does this invasion happen in, say, 2800 or in 3025? Who is leading it? Who isn't? Are the FedSuns having internal issues? What are their plans to counter a Terran attack or a Combine attack? All of that needs answering, and yet Requiem ignores all of that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/07/21 05:33 PM
45.51.181.83
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You mean heroes having the deathstar as a frigate in a fleet with even more powerful weapons isn't good? I like wiping out entire galaxies that get me upset with a single thought.
I was hoping the Alien Space Bats was a mindless blast them up game, like Galaga or Galaxian. I guess pulling out Rampage and playing that a while might help me pass some time.
As for the changing of history, who is to say that the DC does invade the FS to start the 1st war. Given the fact that they helped the RWR with their plans to take out the Cameron line, as well as provided war materials to the RWR, I would think the SLDF would be very eager to pay them back for the Amaris conflict. Maybe even to the point of invading the DC themselves.
As the FS would also NOT have acquired a huge chunk of space, the concentrated forces may well have been able to stall the invasion. As I said, looking over the TH map, about a fifth of the FS came from the TH as the 1st war started. The down side is a few mech factories were taken after the start of the 1st war.
As stated, I doubt the SL would give up Defiance, so the Lyran stranglehold on assault mechs would not be there. The DC may well have went after them in order to gain territory. Another possible thing is Rasslehauge. That might have risen to cede from the DC, and gotten the backing of the SL. Again, possible, but not as likely as other things.
As stated, to take advantage of a lot of things, the houses would have had to institute a number of things before the Amaris war started. The building of warships would have needed more support facilities pumping out items such as engine drives and even jump cores.
Another aspect that seems to be missed, is the hidden SL bases. Camelot Command for instance. If the SL decided to use that to strike the LC, how fast would the LC crumble? They could well control the old RWR area from here as well. There should be others scattered around the rest of the IS as well.
Also as stated, how many worlds would have joined the SL after the houses attacked it?
More what ifs come up as well. Would the SL have advanced tech to equal or exceed the clans? The idea of the SL shrinking is erroneous as the SL needed resources. That was a big reason why the TH even came up with the idea for the SL. They had to strike out to seize those resources when the SL fell apart.
A chunk of the Skye region, including Summer, was part of the SL. So that would change the future as well. The likelihood of the LC taking the RWR areas like they did would have dropped dramatically. They would have to deal with the SL removing the Skye region if they didn't reinforce it.
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Requiem
08/07/21 08:16 PM
124.184.171.41
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The IS was hobbled against the clans?
Then what happened to many FC units between the 20 year update and the second House Book?
Why were the IS not allowed to create PT Vessels to counter warships?
Why was the DC never allowed to act as samurai and attack the Jaguars for Turtle Bay – ie. Kamikaze with nukes?
Why was Hanse Davion, Morgan Hasek-Davion, Takashi Kurita, Theodore Kurita and Melissa Steiner not allowed to be themselves during the Clan Invasion?
Why were the AFFC not allowed to act as they did during the 4th Succession War?
Why was the AFFFC and the DCMS hobbled by not allowing to attack the Clans Logistics?
Why were the Clans allowed to continually act at peak efficiently when it is clear that the Sibko system is incredibly detrimental?
Why was the AFFC not allowed to kill off both the Wolves and the Falcons post war between the two of them?
Why were the Wolves and the Falcons allowed to undertake reaving within the Clan Home worlds when the correct clan cultural act would have been either their absorption or destruction?
How about creating a mobile infantry anti-elemental weapon – sneak suits etc?
How about Huntress – why was the IS never allowed to remove all Clan Tech and incorporate it on their return to the IS?
How about prior to this when it was possible to reverse engineer most Clan weapon tech – and they said the only thing stopping it was the high cost?
How about introducing Total War economy as per WW2?
How about 15 years of truce and how limiting this was to creating a true army to fight off ALL THE CLANS?
How about the 1 year period of truce – why didn’t the IS prepare their defences as per Italy WW2?
How about the majority of TROs past 3050 – in all reality ALL new IS designs MUST be OMNI not the ridiculous designs provided – in all reality the WOB Angel series should have been what all the IS military forces should have designed and manufactured (a variant there of for each house)?
Why attack the clans with Serpent / Bulldog when they did - it would have been more beneficial to use this time to amass a vast NEW army / navy and attack on the 14th Year.
Where were the Black Boxes not mass produced for partisan activities within the clans rear captured worlds + anti logistics fighting within the deep periphery.
Katherine killing off her mother when it is not necessary at all – Victor is the only person she needs to kill to take the throne! … and in my opinion she would have been correct in trying to kill Victor – playing soldier is no way to rule the FC.
Victor – probably one of the most incompetent rulers within the IS – if he wanted to play soldier he should have given up the throne to begin with!
Then the rest of his family – coming from a line of rulers only Katherine showed a spark of being a true leader – the rest are basket cases!
And this is just the beginning of the list …
So yes Hobbled, massively – the entire war from beginning to end is one massive farce! In my opinion!
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Have you not heard the entire thing of the IS not having vast amounts of resources like ships?
Have you not heard of the entire thing that the IS have the capacity to manufacture PT anti warship dropships (however at the whim of the TPTB they were never allowed to do so) as a stop gap measure to producing pocket battleships and aerospace fighter carriers – as well as Big Wing aerospace fighter attack units – then there is the naval anti-ship missile introduced 3071 - get real more like 3051 …
Someone really does not understand a mother loving Naval War!
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Fleets don't scatter, nor does a single ship flee when they have the leader of a realm aboard when they are losing a fight.
Ever heard of the idea of contingency planning? And when it comes to your leader you really believe they would only provide one quarter of a unit for his safety? They wouldn’t have a nuclear locker on board?
At the minimum they could have sent an infantryman out on a jet pack, from one of the dropships, plant and explode the device – just like the LC Loki agents!
Also, where were the rest of the IS – if the FC were so willing to defend the DC capitol where were they now?
Did the dire wolf open up with its main guns during the battle? What a farce!
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Another point is the large ship missiles did not exist through out the game until 2750 came out.
2750? …. They were producing them in 3071 …
Planetary invasions – what were all the aerospace fighters for if not to eliminate dropships? And as Drop-ships are supposed to rare wouldn’t it be SOP to capture not destroy enemy dropships circa 4th Succession War?
And with the Clans arrival, including warships, they are now the biggest threat on the battlefield – don’t you think the IS would want to come up with a means of dealing within them ASAP? Hence the production of anti-ship killer missiles 3051-3052 at the very latest?
USA was afraid Germany would get the Bomb first – hence Trinity – So what is the difference here? Enemy Threat = response to that threat no matter the cost! Or why establish so many R&D teams on making advanced weapons and counter measures – Radar, asdic, V-I, V-II new tank designs and the list goes on and on …. Enigma computer for example.
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Did no one know of the hidden worlds to even attempt to raid the vaults?
So no IS unit had them on hand - no IS state were manufacturing them in the eventuality they were required – eg military engineering purposes - planetary defence (rogue asteroid) for example?
Sorry but this does not make sense at all – Every RCT within the FC and Every DCMS unit would have multiple nuclear weapons storage units for in the eventuality the enemy popped one off. Otherwise where did the Skye military get one to blow the dam with?
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I thought they started coming on line in 3055. And that would have been earlier if not for Comstar delaying engine part delivery to the FS.
So why place ComStar as a military industrial supplier? 5 years into the Clan war and they are still being obstructionist – time to being manufacturing at home what does the Helm Memory Core Say about it?
In a time of war does anyone believe that ComStar would attempt such a blatant act of stupidity?
In playing one side off the other you have to be friend with both parties and do you best for both parties whist in the open – it is the shadows that need to be considered dangerous!
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warship Blueprints
Another massive black hole for aerospace! – did no one look in every military academy library as the LC have SLDF academies that became LC?
Warship Bridge – still does not change the fact she rammed the bridge! Design flaw or in all reality given how vulnerable ships are what’s the point of putting the bridge down below – one good hit by another warship and the ship and all aboard will explode so there is no real point to hiding it away.
You do understand what diplomats are afforded whist in another country?
Cannon – every IS House has only been allowed a 0.2% rating of the SLDF – so when Keresnky survived with 5% of the fleet intact – this still provides him with a massive superiority in warship numbers - enough to threaten all the houses if so required and to patrol the complete TH!
Or do you want the Great houses to start a war with the SLDF when they are supposed to be working out whom the next First Lord is supposed to be? The SLDF is still the biggest stick on the block!
Sorry but no pillaging of fleets until after the SLDF leaves the stage!
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Having a hostile TH between them, would prevent most of any efforts to even talk, much less organize.
And having secret routes though uninhabited systems were never used in the story as well as going around the TH?
This is space after all – you do not need to use exiting held routes for everything!
The TH would remain control of their piece of the HPG – all other states would nationalize their piece of the HPG under their Houses Logo!
Diplomats have what? Diplomatic Amnesty … so no funny business ….
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It shows that the houses would not have gained the mech factories that they relied upon in order to fight the succession wars.
And no one ever though about building more factories on other worlds? Are only those established during the Star League allowed to exist?
This is again another massive black home in the game – the idea that during the entire history of the Great Houses that massive military industrial facilities would have not been established within the centre of the realm where it is supposed to be safe against enemy attack – so why don’t we put them all on the border with out enemy because that wouldn’t make for a tempting target at all! (satire)
Also considering the massive time line – why haven’t there been more shipyards established – in all reality EVERY system should have a small shipyard and as the would increases in value so too does the size of its shipyard!
Again, taking about me, not too me. What would happen if I also posted in a similar fashion?
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If Requiem wants to believe that he can still make canon events happen even after he changes past events in major ways then he is playing with Alien Space Bats and falls into the trap those things bring into play.
Is it the medium used to covey the message or the message itself that is important?
Changes can be made - the route and the vehicle may change, and yet the destination can still be the same.
The Seven Samurai and the Magnificent Seven.
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This would lead to fights and expelling the techs that work on the HPG network.
Unless every House nationalized their part of the HPG network – techs live on these worlds thus they can be considered citizens, so what is the problem? It is not like they work from a depo in TH – and every time the system would goes down they would say we will be there between 6.00am on 3rd to 12.00pm on the 29th please be home other wise you will need to reschedule with HPG TH.
Nukes Vs HPG – semantics - apples and oranges – weapon systems Vs communication systems.
Yes, The only time a HPG can be considered a target is if everyone knows exactly how to make them – and even then why as there will come a point in time when every ship has one - also Black Boxes how prevalent are these going to get? Remember the idea is to take over the world without hacking off the population that lives on the rock, and taking away their HPG is a sure fire way of doing this.
Question – so we are now discussing how individual units are to react - when lances a and b are going to take on star a? you really want to go this far? Who said a battle plan survives contact with the enemy? Concentrated fire, overlapping fields of fire, how using sneak suits and new anti-toad weapon systems to hunt and kill toads – how using ISF and commando to kill garrisons because they do not have an adequate security force …
And here I thought both of you wanted to only discuss the larger issues at play and not get bogged down – I think the Phoenix Hawk should have jumped out of the light woods, in order to out flank the DC Dragon at the Battle of Cannae.
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that would not give the houses time to construct new facilities before the war.
Really? Once Amaris made his declaration and Kerensky his – War – Wasn’t it very obvious to everyone that sooner or later this war could expand “Domino Effect” and in so doing become an Inner Sphere Wide War – just as it did WW1 and WW2 and WW3 … and the age of war ….
So taking precautions as soon as the balloon went up would have been in the best interests of every Great House.
Also the shadow Wars – The SLDF did not help in FS Vs DC to determine the legitimate ruler and again with CC Vs FS border dispute so really why have any military industrial facility so close to the border when it was becoming obvious the SLDF were not going to do their job!
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Given the resentment towards the DC for helping Amaris, the SLDF may well have hit into the DC to prevent them from becoming a major threat.
Do you have proof of this? Other wise it is just conjecture! The DC sat out the war just the same as every Great House – unless proof can be found!
There is also the point of why when politically it would be far more satisfying to use the proof at the council meeting and in the public to crucify House Kurita.
Quote:
So again, the great alt story line needs to be change in order to bring about the increased production to even begin to compete with the SL.
The 2650 edict is the point where it can be said that increased production commences with massive secret facilities – so there is absolutely no need for a re-write.
Neologism – a newly coined word or expression
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it's the idea that he still wants canon history to happen as it does
Really? Then why did I go to all the trouble of creating so many alternate gaming scenarios where Canon falls off the wayside?
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they would still get NO corridor to the Lyrans
Except if they went through the CC and the FWL around the TH border – and guess what a corridor!
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and yet Requiem ignores all of that.
Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole?
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so the other guy moved his Warhammer into those light woods,
When was the last time you wanted to discuss actual game play down to this level within any of the previous forums? Haven’t you wanted to discuss the larger issues?
So if you want to go down this track may I suggest a new forum within the Game Board Section.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/07/21 09:08 PM
45.51.181.83
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The developers had to do something to keep people from asking how the FC lost to the DC even with Comstar giving the DC help. And why the war didn't last longer or another happen after it. Even the Skye rebellion wouldn't have kept overwhelming forces from hitting the DC. The DC would have lost worlds as well as the FC keeping theirs.
Reread the Overlord variant with the capital missiles again. The IS DID get some dropships that could fire on warships and do some damage. This has been said before and proven you are wrong. Why are you trying to say this yet again?
Looks like most of your why questions have been answered more then a few times. Why don't you actually read the responses and remember them? The answers don't change.
The only new question in that list is about the Wolves and Falcons not being absorbed. The best guess is the only clans that could possibly have done so, were still reeling from Tukkiyud. It is possible some did try and failed, but it was not printed. It may well be one of the stipulations that the other clans can not do so against the clans invading.
So since the IS didn't have warships, they should have surrendered, as it seems to be the point of naval warfare. Or do nations fight with what ever they have to the best of their ability. Overcome. Adapt. The IS was making naval weapon carrying dropships. Just not the instant the clans showed up. OH wow! You mean it takes time to properly fit ships with new weapon systems? Why didn't the IS houses get on Comstar to use their warships to remove the clans? Oh yeah. They were working with the clans at first.
So you would make it easy to find out where the leader is heading to by making a large fleet follow him? Not understand naval tactics? The enemy is most likely to go after the largest concentration of fleeing vessels, as the assumption that someone would be stupid to have the leader on one of those ships. And you believe all ships carry nukes in storage some wheres? This is from the guy that suggests nukes would never be used, and it would be illegal to use them? The only time they would have nukes is when they intend to use them. Otherwise you are wasting storage space as well as just asking to kill the crew if something happened, like their payload being spilled during a fight.
This is basic thoughts and logic. Why does this have to be explained?
2750 refers to the helm core where the IS, outside of Comstar, started gaining access to naval weapons again. This means the capital missiles. Which once decoded, would have been something to start equipping anything that could launch them. But the developers didn't seem to think that was the logical way to go. This one I will agree was stupid on their part. Important worlds like nation capitals should have done like the DC and put up their capital ship defense satilites. Funny how the DC did but not the FC. Think on that one.
The Skye incident happened during the canon succession wars. Having stockpiles of nukes around, and having them aboard ships is different. Ships would not just carry them around, as explained above. stockpiles would need authorization to get into as the use of them would set off more issues. Something you seem to miss.
Did you even read what happened after the truce? Walterly was holding back the FC from gaining warships until the DC/FWL/CC could catch up. As the truce was in effect, Walterly was bidding her time in order to destroy the FC. She was still thinking she could use the clans and the others to remove the FC, and for her to take over. Operation Scorpion was where she was killed. Hmmmm. Obstruction was there why?
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ghostrider
08/07/21 09:40 PM
45.51.181.83
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You do understand what diplomats are afforded whist in another country?
When at war, very little.
Statements like this: this still provides him with a massive superiority in warship numbers - enough to threaten all the houses if so required and to patrol the complete TH!: is why your views of everything being in one place at one time keep being shown. You do not have the forces to patrol the entire TH. In order to actually guard it all, they would have to be spread out, meaning a raider can hit them and take out ships in a few systems. You don't have enough to have even one per system. The argument of having superior numbers over all verse local superiority. But then you never have any patrols or guards, as shown yet again.
And as you stated, the SL would not be abandoned. The houses would have to deal with the SL threat. But then you have not stated the SL meant ALL houses were still part of it. If true, then no succession wars, which totally changes the game. But the topic was for the LC to begin pulling out of the SL. They would begin an arms race no matter what the SL said.
Why isn't there ports in every coastal city? Why not a car manufacturer in every city? Unnecessary costs is the first answer. Then having to staff and upkeep after building them. This is part of why you send ships for repairs to specific places. Corporate greed is a big one as well. They want the most amount of cash they can get, and if they have excess facilities, they won't get it. Also staffing one location verse a dozen. Economics 103.
This means economics other then military are needed, just like real life.
Nukes Vs HPG – semantics - apples and oranges – weapon systems Vs communication systems.
Comprehend this. A piece of paper is not going to stop someone from doing something just because the paper exists. Semantics, this is not. If you don't understand why this isn't, then you might need to talk to others, besides on line. Agreements can be violated no matter what they are about. If it benefits someone that is desperate, then they will negate the agreement.
When did the succession wars start after the fleet left? Oh yeah. It started before they got out of the IS. So all those factories you wanted to build before the war, well not possible. They would have had to have been done during the Amaris war, or as Kerensky was trying to keep the SL together. So without the ALREADY built factories, the battles in the succession wars would have been far different. So if the SLDF stayed, then the war would have been going on and no factories from the TH portion would have been taken.
Not sure if you know this, but more then a few strategies had to cut off the locals from com networks. People loyal to who you are attacking will relay information as well as any soldiers in the city. This is true even with planet to planet coms.
So you think the SL intel department is that inept? That they could never find shipping documents or even ID codes on the equipment the RWR had? Even the metals used tend to have some clues to where it is made. Part of criminal investigations. But I guess they all died as no one is working outside of the line units.
Oh but a rewrite is necessary. Plans and equipment would have to be gathered up to even begin this, as they would not wait until the declaration got to the first lord. If it was, then the courts would have a field day delaying such a deal until the subject could be taken care of. Which may well include arresting and execution of the Archon for espienage, and other crimes against the SL. This may well come from inside the LC. And how many years would pass before construction began? Oh yeah, breach of contract if the courts didn't clear it first. Maybe even revoking the LC as part of the SL accords. Well thought out.
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ghostrider
08/07/21 09:56 PM
45.51.181.83
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The lance example was showing when tactics comes into effect, and strategy ends. The comprehension of the example is the issue.
The destination is not the same if you change the events leading up to it are not the same.
Hitting Japan with the nukes verses just invading them. The war ends, but the conditions are far different. No nuke sites and a lot more dead soldiers going with the second. That changes more events down the line, as people don't know what nukes can do. So the war ends, but not the same result. This is the concept that seems to be elusive. That also means that in the future, those extra dead will change things even more, as someone isn't there to perform an event they were meant to. If Kerensky dies in the periphery, the SLDF would not have thought of leaving. Someone else takes over and takes out Amaris, but the end conditions are not that same.
Except if they went through the CC and the FWL around the TH border – and guess what a corridor!
You still believe those nations would allow the FS and LC to discuss things if they can prevent it? Just as the TH, they would do what they could to stop it. Neither nations wants their enemies to team up with another nation. And the FWL/CC 'corridor' is even longer then the TH one. It would be easier to go thru the DC, which we know would put an end to that.
All of that needs answering, and yet Requiem ignores all of that.
You left out the context of the statement, as seems to be normal. Had you dealt with the entire thing, you would have seen the:
Also, who says they will even be as successful as the canon version of this event? Does this invasion happen in, say, 2800 or in 3025? Who is leading it? Who isn't? Are the FedSuns having internal issues? What are their plans to counter a Terran attack or a Combine attack?
There are questions to the outcome that seems to be ignored in order to present a believable, viable outcome to events that is your vision. No answers, just saying they work. Yet the logic holes open up in this.
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Requiem
08/08/21 01:41 AM
124.184.171.41
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Reread the Overlord variant with the capital missiles again. The IS DID get some dropships that could fire on warships and do some damage.
Pocket warship classes - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Pocket_WarShip_classes
Overlord A3 – developed in 3058 – (not available!) thus if I place my order in 3058 how many years will it require until I receive it? And how does this help me in 3050 onwards?
Whereas https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Category:Capital_Missile
Barracuda – year availability 3051
White Shark – year availability 3051
Killer Whale – year availability 3051
So the Capital Missile are there and yet the ships will not be available for another 6 years.
Oh yes this makes absolute sense the answer does not change for the first 8+ years you have the missiles and no ships to use them on (Satire!!!)
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So since the IS didn't have warships, they should have surrendered
All levity aside …
The ONLY IS weapon, capable of attacking a warship circa 3050, is the Aerospace fighter and the Nuke!
That is unless you want to turn a dropship into a Fire Ship.
So the only realistic option is the Big Wing aerospace fighter attack or break rules and build a PT by retro fitting capital missile launchers onto the side of dropships as fast attack craft – torpedo runs.
Also, why do I need to explain this?, The IS did not know about ComStars Fleet they also did not know about Wolfs Dragoons Fleet - so what would happen if they did know about both?
So yes the ONLY overcome – adapt scenario circa 3050 is the fighter and the nuke!
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The best guess is the only clans that could possibly have done so, were still reeling from Tukkiyud.
And what were the home clans doing? Sitting on their hands? Absorb them – absorb their right to enter into the Inner Sphere to become Il Clan! How difficult is this to understand? Both The Wolves and the Falcons have proven themselves to be Weak – The weak die or they are absorbed – This is the way of the MONGOL!
As for stipulations – I demand a Trial to say that is wrong! Really how many would want to keep an idiotic rule when they have a second chance at becoming an invader of the IS and thus the Il Clan!
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So you would make it easy to find out where the leader is heading to by making a large fleet follow him?
And how many dropships do the Flying Drakons have? 5
And how large is space and how small are jump-ships compared to space – thus what is the probability of actually running into another fleet in space unless you jumping to a designated coordinate where there is a habituated world in-system?
Please do let me know which radar system is used to track a ship once it has jumped to its destination?
And you don’t believe all Military Command ships don’t carry nukes in an era when they were used like candy and you have no idea if the enemy is going to re-start using them again?
Contingency planning would say otherwise – or why have subs out there right now with nuclear missiles ready to be used, all it takes is the go code! If we go down your theory all nukes on subs as well as surface vessels – cruise missiles and those for attack fighters etc should all still be back in drydock …
Helm Memory Core - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Helm_Memory_Core discovered in 3028 Then required how may years to decrypt all the information contained there in? As it was still being decrypted during the 4th Succession War when ComStar Attacked New Avalon to destroy it!
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Having stockpiles of nukes around, and having them aboard ships is different.
No – US, Russia, China etc Naval vessels will have them on board NOW – so what is the difference in the future? NIL – all RCTs will have a nuclear bunker abord their ships!
As for authorisation – Highest officer alive on the battlefield would have direct authorisation to implement as and when they are required!
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Walterly was holding back the FC from gaining warships until the DC/FWL/CC could catch up.
And Focht should have shot her earlier!
Considering the number of shadow wars between FS, LC and FC Vs Comstar why anyone would trust an enemy is beyond understanding! Did the 4th SW interdiction teach them anything?
This is why you build them yourself with the knowledge gained from the Helm Memory Core!
Which is another reason why the game has been so violently hobbled against the IS.
And why the story is getting beyond a joke!
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You do understand what diplomats are afforded whist in another country? When at war, very little.
And the Cuban Missile Crisis means absolutely Nothing? You must keep the back doors of communication open this is why even during war diplomats talk with each other – usually in a neutral country.
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You do not have the forces to patrol the entire TH.
Exodus Fleet comprising only 80% of the Remaining SLDF. - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_EXODUS
402 Warships – 1,349 Jumpships – over 5,000+ Dropships
Would say otherwise as how many ships would this equate to for the total 100% of the remaining SLDF?
Then there is the issue of Politics – why would you want to antagonise the only person who is supposed to be the kingmaker – and provide the First Lord title?
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Why isn't there ports in every coastal city? Why not a car manufacturer in every city?
You do realis this statement requires adaptation – Why not a car manufacturer on every world with a population over how many million people?
Every world WILL need to have a minimum level of technological development / infrastructure – schools, hospitals, - energy, food etc – and transportation / vehicles for agriculture / transport etc – where are they going to be made in their thousands and tens of thousands – another planet and shipped in via a dropship that has a very finite space available?
This is why every system once it reaches a minimum level of technological and social development must build their own port – it provides transport security for commerce – and in so doing promotes economic development – ie increases peoples wages, standard of living etc and increases the economic development (and standing) of the world
Question How many sea access countries have at least one port for export / import and as you go up the countries wealth ladder how many ports or how sophisticated do these ports become – ans all of them!
The same goes for worlds in space – all MUST have their own Port – not on the ground but in space – a spaceport with a port to fix any jump-ship / dropship as required!
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Comprehend this. A piece of paper is not going to stop someone from doing something just because the paper exists.
Then why write any laws – why have police - why have the court system at all? The world should be one huge temple dedicated to Anarchy – everyone should do whatever they want and there should be no consequences for their action at all. Laws are in place for a reason and the majority of us obey them.
Why have a UN, why have International Law, why have military law, why have any regulations protecting us against pollution for example?
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When did the succession wars start after the fleet left?
You do realise I stated the factories should be started to be built in secret circa 2650 – thus by the time the fleet left they are all up and operational and hidden who knows where throughout each individual house’s territory.
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a few strategies had to cut off the locals from com networks
Canon – HPG unfortunately ComStar will not allow this - Local Telephone is another matter entirely.
Alt History – who ever controls / has access to a substitute HPG can make the call.
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The destination is not the same if you change the events leading up to it are not the same.
Sorry but no – how many alternative world stories have the protagonist going to another reality to stop whatever destroyed his world from happening on the new world he was sent to?
Different people – same destination …
Also as stated many many times – the nukes DID NOT stop WW2 – it was the Russians declaring war on Japan and invading – the Japanese did not want to end up like Germany so they quickly surrendered to the US. The propaganda about the bomb stopping the war is there to alleviate the guilt in being the only country who actually used it.
So no nukes + Russians invading = still equals Japan Surrendering.
Kerensky dead does not mean the war ends with him – it goes on under a new CinC – and the outcome can still be the same – Amaris put down!
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they would do what they could to stop it.
And during the 4th SW did the CC, FWL and DC stop the new FC form creating the corridor?
As for taking the DC route via Alt History – who knows what their military might is compared to the FC ?
As for everything else – this is up to the Writer to work out.
How easy it is to say there will be holes when it is yet to be written.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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