Requiem
09/04/21 05:17 AM
1.158.137.81
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During any age where the warship is in numbers, and nuclear weapons are being used in prodigious numbers, I do hereby postulate that in such eras ground forces should be considered less effective and by default their commanders also should be considered of lesser importance to their Military doctrine
That is during this age the warship is the king of the battlefield and Naval ranks must be considered far more prestigious than that of ground forces – thus any head of the SLDF must be, by default, a naval commander rather than a ground army commander.
Thus, for example, if Kerensky was to be commander of the SLDF shouldn’t he be in the black sea navy rather than that of being in the army?
Once a warship assumes the high ground – that militaries forces now possesses ...
• Greater intelligence in the form of real time evaluation as to their enemy’s position and movement.
• The possibility to use – from that point forward - orbital bombardment, nuclear missile strikes via missile or aerospace fighter upon their enemy.
In such a case the only act for the opposition is to retreat into a castle facility that has the ability to withstand multiple orbital bombardments, as well as nuclear – whilst defending against any insurgent strikes by commando or regular forces. It must also possess a communication system such as a HPG / Black Box to immediately call for naval support.
That is unless they have ICBMs that are designated as land-based ship killers – thus is the ship in range? Does it possess fighters to strike the isle down or does it possess an anti-missile system that can strike at these missiles? Or given the velocity a ship can generate whist traversing to the Jump point can it create a micro-burst of velocity and just move beyond the missiles range? Or can the ship detect these silos and direct their ordinance against them?
In all reality any battle whose opposition has naval support has an immediate strategic advantage over those forces that do not.
Thus, during the age of warship production – shouldn’t this have gone hand in hand with that of the production of the castle to defend any forces from that of the Warships main armaments?
Also, any battle in which a warship is involved shouldn’t this be over and done with by during the 10 minute - 1 hour mark if the catch the enemy any distance from a castle facility to protect them?
Also isn’t there a mech missing from this age? If the Enemy has cruise nuclear tipped missiles shouldn’t there be a Mech armed with anti-cruise system – a arrow IV anti-cruise missile system that can also be used to shoot down aerospace forces - similar to a SAM missile system?
So at this stage I would like to ask where are all the castles built during such an age as they must have been manufactured in prodigious numbers by all forces ….
Thus any war during this age – shouldn’t any war have been completed very quickly given that one side has a vast naval superiority to that of its enemy?
Also shouldn’t ComStar / WOB have recognised this and as such rather than having vast ground forces shouldn’t they have manufactured vast naval forces?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/04/21 11:57 AM
45.51.181.83
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Nukes should be the absolute LAST option used. Non nuke bombardment should be second to last. This is the way things were supposed to go. Not sure if the SLDF was the first to use the nukes in the periphery or not. This is only morally important as they could have used the excuse that the enemy used them first.
The issue with Naval personnel being in overall charge of the military being in charge means orbital bombardment would be used far more often then it was. The concept is why waste manpower on a ground fight, when you can just wipe out the enemy from orbit?
As this is a ground game, the entire premise of it changes with the concept of solving everything with space craft.
This is NOT saying that the best defense of worlds is to prevent the enemy from even seeing it, much less landing on it. Far from it. But the game is not about aerospace.
As pointed out before the SDS wiki entry states that ground based anti capital ship weapons WERE not only possible but part of that weapons system. That means there should have been at least the ground batteries on worlds. They would be targeted first when the fight comes, but yet not a single mention in the games fluff, stories, or source books have suggested that even the supporting base structures exist. The SDS retcon was used to avoid Terra from being hit with a nuclear hailstorm by the houses to destroy WOB. Now that all the old rules for jump distances is out the window, it removes the concept of borders beyond what the batteries did.
Why would you store all your supplies in a castle, knowing a single bombardment could destroy it all? Scattering them in little caches across the world would be a better solution. That is if you can't defend the world from having warships parking over them.
The question on if the AMS can shoot down capital missiles needs an answer. If they can, it removes a large part of the threat of missiles in naval combat, meaning sitting back firing missiles isn't an option anymore. Not unless you think you can overwhelm the defenses with massive missile barrages.
Also, the possibility of the Large Pulse Laser being used as such comes to mind. They have some range and the damage done is the best of the pulse lasers. It would also question on if the flak ammunition from LBX and silver bullet weapons would work. The Partisan says there is such an ammunition load back in the TRO:3026. The Laser AMS should be more efficient in this as well.
The time frame is what would determine if Comstar/WOB would start constructing warships. Before the Helm Core and the invasion, they would avoid it, as the houses would KNOW they had SL tech beyond the HPG network. At least until the 4th war, they were pretty much acting neutral. The cost of making and maintaining them kept them from being made. Comstar, though rich, did have limited funds to deal with things. They did have their projects going that cost them. Though it is a bit stupid to think they were looking for the SLDF without having those very vessels in the exploration fleets.
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Requiem
09/04/21 05:58 PM
1.158.137.81
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Nukes should be the absolute LAST option used. Non nuke bombardment should be second to last.
Supposed to be the last option, and yet
And yet at the commencement of hostilities for the Reunification War – The Amaris / Kerensky War – The Succession wars … There were no rules as to the conduct of WMDs, none, the First Lord for the Reunification War publicly removed this law!
War is now winning by any means necessary, or how else are we supposed to explain 95% of the SLDF obliterated by a vastly smaller force – Then there is the massive collateral damage to the IS that resulted in the extinction of advanced technology. How else are we supposed to explain this without the massive proliferation of WMDs?
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As this is a ground game, the entire premise of it changes with the concept of solving everything with space craft.
Jade Falcons – threatening to obliterate a FC unit via orbital bombardment unless they surrender …
Jihad – Death of the Master? ….
And then
Caleb Davion and the Palmyra Disaster
If this is a ‘ground game’ these events would say otherwise.
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But the game is not about aerospace.
Then why are there warships, Jump-ships, Drop-ships, aerospace fighters, conventional fighters, VTOL craft etc in the game at all?
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SDS
Problem is there are Warships in the game – there is no way of getting around this – they have the ability to sterilize vast areas of land with next to no threat from the majority of all planets in the IS (with the exception of those very few worlds that do have an SDS).
Thus the majority of all worlds do not have any form of naval defence.
So, why have warships or SDS in the game if you are not going to use them?
And as for an SDS system they have massive flaws – that unless they are shielded from all forms of detection equipment (which becomes obsolete the moment they open up and fire) and unless they have an energy weapon with greatest range possible they are just a target on a target range to which the naval officers will use as target practice as they will most surely will have a ship with a weapons package that can out range the SDS system – that is they will just stand off and obliterate the SDS system the same as shooting clay targets for target practice.
Theoretically the only way a SDS system works is if they can close the range – fast – whilst inflicting and sustaining massive damage in the process.
As they are drones this therefore requires an AI system that is also shielded form EMP attack, as any attempt to remote control them is a vulnerability that can be exploited (Shut down at the best or hack and take control of at their worst – when it comes to computer warfare).
Also with an AI system – can a ship also have an AI system designed to predict the movement of the Drone AI and respond accordingly? Thus kill of the drones more effectively? ie. are we now down to a situation as whom has the best AI – surveillance equipment and the greatest range possible?
As for ground based naval weapons – wouldn’t their arc of fire be extremely limited to that of a Naval Ship that has the ability to fire at any ground-based facility at a far greater arc than just (virtually) firing straight up from any land-based facility?
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Castle
You would not place all your forces / supplies in a single castle and they must be able to survive multiple strikes otherwise constructing them becomes pointless.
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Naval AMS
Wouldn’t this be standard on every ship as wouldn’t it also be used as an anti-aerospace fighter weapon system as well?
And if not then wouldn’t every Navy be experimenting with one? as it is the basis for defending every warship from such an attack
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The time frame is what would determine if Comstar/WOB would start constructing warships
If the aim is to take over the IS as a Blakean Theocracy wouldn’t they start construction upon their hidden five worlds as soon as possible, as wouldn’t their goal be similar or if not greater than that of the SLDF’s navy – also they did have hundreds of years to begin and maintain a high degree of output as they never lost their technology as the Great Houses did.
The five hidden worlds prove that they have the ability to hide vast resources – so why not hide vast fleet resources at the same time?
As for limited funds – these funds are only for within the IS – why would you need funds at all for a hidden worlds population? As you don’t, hidden worlds, can operate without the need for a economy liked to the IS.
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as the houses would KNOW they had SL tech beyond the HPG network.
And yet the five hidden worlds and all the advanced tech belonging to the WOB remained a mystery until they attacked the IS.
As well as, as per ghostrider’s above post, the very vessels in the exploration fleets remained hidden for all these years.
There is absolutely no way the Great Houses would know - as if they did wouldn’t their first reaction be to demand the return of such knowledge?
Thus does it stand that in any age where there are no restrictions on how a warship can be used in war would they use their weapons on any ground forces from the start?
My hypothesis would be to say yes they would, on any legitimate military target.
Thus placing the Navy in a far more important role than that of the Army.
The Black Sea Fleet would be the senior military unit and by extension is they who would rule and not an army man unless there was some sort of a rotation schedule for the top job.
All IS military strategy therefore must be predicated upon the single premise as to whether there is a naval vessel in orbit or not!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/04/21 08:54 PM)
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ghostrider
09/04/21 08:43 PM
45.51.181.83
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The examples given of the warship and nuke use is what?
It isn't constant. The way the developers use them is to change the game to fit their new desires. They are not used constantly. I do agree they tend to use them when they write themselves into a corner and can't figure out how to make something a bigger threat without resorting to them.
But it is far worse that mechs tend to be the bringers of doom to worlds more then warships and nukes. The battles claim innocent lives as well as destroy cities and such. That is the product of all warfare. Even the limited ones like the trials the clans hold.
They could have started using asteroids to destroy worlds instead of nukes and warships. Worse, they could use bio and chemical weapons as well. Those are far worse, as they don't always kill rather quickly, and there isn't much chance to get away or live with the results.
What is the game without the means to move between worlds and contest that with flying vehicles? And no war game beyond WWI would be complete without some sort of aircraft. The reason jumpships and dropships are needed, as they have to be used to move those forces to other worlds. It is that simple. Fighters are used to attack and defend those very vessels. The very question of why vehicles are in the game comes up with this. They are supposed to be so fragile compared to mechs, that they are a waste of money. We know this isn't true, but the whole concept is the issue.
The SDS section makes me wonder if you thought it thru before saying anything. It is not just stationary ground batteries. They run all the ECM, counter measures and such that everyone else is using. Outranging them is only possible if you use but one of the systems they envelope. They also include suicide dropships, fighters, and such meant to ram and explode ships, as well as dropping things like missiles and mines on the way it. The target ship will have to move forward thru such things as they get close. The game does not really cover this properly with the rules. These are the same vessels that the invading forces use, so if they are susceptible to ECM and EMPs then so are the attackers. Hacking into them should be impossible, as the attack commands should lock out all input into their systems. Nothing on RAM, only ROM. So hard coded that can not be changed without physical contact with the computer.
Yes, some will say they can get people aboard to do it, but this is more fantasy then the game is.
But I will answer the question of why have them. Threat value and the cost to stop them. It is a poor way to go, but effective.
The AMS issue is something that should have been dealt with long before Naval missiles were done. It is a hole in the game logic, as it would be standard on all ships that could carry them. Even if they were naval grade weights, IE 10 tons instead of .5 tons. And depending on the programing, they might well be used against fighters as well as missiles.
Comstar actually STOPPED building warships before the 3025 era. They had them when the rest of the IS didn't, as well as could start making them when ever they wanted to. They didn't need the hidden worlds. This is why it was said depending on the time frame.
The use of warships is one like nukes. No one wanted to use them against worlds as it would cause everyone else to use them. Each faction had to decide when and what could be used. As stated, nukes did not disappear in the game. They could have been used at any time. But they weren't. There is no way, besides the threat of everyone using them, to keep them from being used.
The argument of the IS using nukes against the clans comes down to a simple fact. If you don't have the books telling you everything about the enemy and what they had. a single use might well have caused the enemy to start using them. A lack of knowledge would make sure that you didn't start something you couldn't stop. The succession wars supposedly taught the house this. Without knowing where the enemy is based at, which being thought of as pirates wouldn't have one, what do you target? How do you know if they would have far more ways to hit you. As the IS didn't nor couldn't watch every uninhabited system, there is always a way to sneak into the inner territories to strike. Deep raids have shown this time after time. With the forces available to the IS, they could not guard every location that a ship could get into a system.
Logistics plays a major role here. Food is required to be brought into a lot of worlds. Luthien supposedly being polluted, shouldn't be able to grow enough food on their own, so it would have to be shipped in. Taking out that food supply means a slow death. You can sit there with all the forces of the DCMS, and still lose.
But the reply was meant to suggest a few things, not start the standard argument.
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Requiem
09/04/21 09:56 PM
1.158.137.81
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It isn't constant. The way the developers use them is to change the game to fit their new desires. They are not used constantly.
Then how does this explain the Amaris-Kerensky War as well as the damage during the Succession Wars?
The only way is via a black sea fleet and WMDs.
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SDS
What happens if a ship just stands off at extreme range, beyond the range of the SDS, and just uses any target (other than a fighter) as target practice for the main guns – as for the fighter, clan ships have fighters themselves – or the ship should have a batteries built in a hedgehog fashion (with 2 or three independent ranges) to thwart any fighter etc (a pre-version of a AMS that can also take on fighters). Agree – there needs to be an AMS system circa Star League era and beyond …
In my personal opinion – unless the current SDS is upgraded they are a boondoggle – too expensive for any real value – the cost should be transferred to that of a new warship rather than a SDS system.
Their application per world is limited and quite ineffective.
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COMSTAR and the warship
If the aim is to ride out like Valkyries and establish a Blakean Theocracy whist at the same time looking over your shoulder for any sign of the old SLDF … why not create a massive armada that can withstand any challenge and bring forward the great coming of the Blakean age to mankind sooner than expected (satire)?
ComStar has had how many centuries to build this armada – to me it sounds like a wise precaution rather than a Com-Guard unit limited by only ground forces which also limits any future response.
No for me the way forward is once more with a Black Sea fleet.
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The use of warships is one like nukes. No one wanted to use them against worlds as it would cause everyone else to use them.
And yet during the Amaris-Kerensky War and the Succession Wars the only logical conclusion was that all sides were using them in such a manner.
It was not until everyone signed and obeyed a set of rules as to the conduct of war can we say such practices became … obsolete … for a time, and until someone believed the only way forward was once more through more destructive means.
As long as they exist in the game with the ability to inflict such damage there will always be someone willing to use them in such a manner …
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If you don't have the books telling you everything about the enemy and what they had. a single use might well have caused the enemy to start using them.
And where is Wolfs Dragoons during all this uncertainty?
And when you do know everything about the Clans what then? Still willing to do nothing while the Clans use an orbital bombardment on you – or are you, like the 13 days Cuban Missile Crisis, going to find a way to communicate – which at this stage seems to be in a language they understand – violence and the Nuke!
Or do nothing and appear weak to them and invite more acts of barbarity!
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Deep Raids
And yet the Clans move in one direction only striking at those worlds in front of them …
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Logistics plays a major role here.
For the IS - Yes.
For the Clans – No.
During the Clan Invasion there appears to be a disparity between the treatment of logistics between that of the IS and the Clans.
The Clans however appear to never consider understanding logistics as a means of fighting war – their only understanding was the enemy unit on front of them. A point that was missing from the writings of the Clan Invasion – and was never exploited by the IS - a point that detracts from the canon story, in my opinion!
As for the reply, this was just a personal observation – and was not intended to initiate a ‘standard argument’.
As if during an age where WMDs are being utilized en mass – the bunker and the Castle system seem to be the only refuge – so where are they when you consider the duration of the Succession Wars for example, and the damage they wrought?
Also considering the time it takes for a single warship to inflict damage upon an enemy world the question needs to asked as to why the succession wars took so long. Wouldn’t it be more realistic to assume these wars where both short and extremely brutal?
In my opinion in space the only real primary military force is that of the Navy – with the army acting in a secondary role. I understand the original intention of the game to put the Army front and centre when there were no warships – However times change and we need to change with the times, thus with the return of warships there can be little room for debate - either create a mechanism to restrict their use as a WMD platform against planets or shift the focus of the game to that of the black sea Navy and accept the new reality of the situation.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/04/21 10:05 PM)
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ghostrider
09/05/21 12:09 AM
45.51.181.83
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The Amaris war and the first 2 succession wars were supposed to show all that the survival of all means avoiding nuclear strikes. The Warships died out in the 2nd war, so that was a bit forgotten for a while. The statement of all signing something is incorrect in this case. The IS simply decided to stop using nukes, as glowing worlds did nothing for anyone. The Ares Conventions were signed and tossed by the main nation that wrote it, the TH/SL.
The SDS was a poor retcon into the story line. The fact that NO ONE, including Comstar, knew of it until it was used to wipe out the merc forces moving into the Sol system which included SL descendants shows this. It was also done at a time where the clans were part of those forces to strike as well. I would say they did a great job at removing warships in the systems they were operational in, but I think this might be more due to plot armor then actual effectiveness. The desire to remove certain units may well be why it worked so well. Then again, if it worked right, this would explain why the SLDF lost so many units. Warships and dropships all died with all hands on board.
The story line deals with the Dragoons about what was known about the clans. The fact they were at war with the DC should explain why they didn't deal with the DC, and the FC should have been able to handle themselves, but seemed to have Nondi doing things wrong. It was stated she started ignoring the RCT concepts and went back to the LC's old ways. Large plodding mechs that couldn't catch much.
The main units that did decently against the clans were those that were from the FS portion.
Funny thing about the ONE bombardment during the invasion. It never happened again. The ship was removed from the IS. The house leaders didn't know the captain was disciplined for using it, but we know from the books what happened. This was a single city, not like the DC and CC using poison against multiple cities often. If it was the FS that did it, nothing would have been said about it.
Actually, the clans only striking forward is incorrect. The front lines did have to retake worlds behind them, and did hit the flank worlds as well.
It is also stated that the clan front lines started taking supplies from their PGCs in order to keep close to fully operational. So that one is inaccurate as well. Wether you want to believe it or not is the issue.
The castles were not effective against the WMDs as much as you want to believe. Those were among the FIRST things hit with any sort of invasion. If they were effective, then invasions would not have happened. They fell. Once the nukes and bombardments stopped, then the castles started making sense. Mainly HQ's as they were still effective when not being hit by the big guns.
I believe you are confusing wars with battles. Wars take a lot longer to fight, as most fight over the same territories several times before one side is able to move the goal posts. Part of this goes to the old reasons of why land battles were pretty stagnant. The lack of carried ammo meant you could take the enemy position yet have to return to your own supply depots to reload. This is still true with mechs for the most part. Yes, energy only units are there, but you have to replace the armor as well. And since we know how slow they actually move, trying to hit Phoenix from Los Angeles means over a day with driving a unit, sometimes more. Even 60 kph is not that fast. The big movers don't fly much faster with some ground units being able to outrun them. The aircrafts advantage is being able to go over the mountains without slowing.
As stated before, and seems to have to be continually repeated, this is not a space war game. It would be much easier and less frustrating to just play something else, as making Battletech into one is going to be a major failure.
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Requiem
09/05/21 05:31 AM
1.158.137.81
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The fact that NO ONE, including Comstar, knew of it until it was used to wipe out the merc forces moving into the Sol system which included SL descendants shows this.
Problem – the SDS system was established pre Amaris-Kerensky War, and all of this illicit technology was still available within their vaults (which begs the question as to what else is in there) – so why not re-create it if you are as paranoid as the master / WOB when it comes to Comstar attempting retaking Terra … so where was the reconnaissance prior to invasion? Why engage in an ad-hoc invasion unless you are an irredeemable commanding officer … ?
As for working … would it have worked so efficiently if the attacking force had known and then fired at extreme range rather than closing in and forcing an engagement at almost point-blank range?
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The story line deals with the Dragoons about what was known about the clans.
Problem – their Khan ordered them to assist the IS – so where is this assistance. Why didn’t they let the IS know prior to the invasion? Why take 10 months into the invasion for them to covey this information …
Being at war with the DC still does not adequately explain why they couldn’t explain the FRR or the FC.
As for Nondi – she is NOT the commanding officer ….
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marshal_of_the_Armies
Marshal of the Armies is Morgan Hasek-Davion (3049-3060) – “In the absence of both the First Price and Archon the Marshal of the Armies served as supreme commander of the Federated Commonwealth’s military … in a crisis, assuming direct command over a military operation …”
Nondi’s rank, therefore, was below that of Morgan during the Clan Invasion! So the idea she decide to use the old ways against the Clans goes right out the window as Morgan has direct control over her!
I would also like to point out that Morgan’s command acumen that we see during the 4th Succession was totally missing during the initial Clan Invasion … can I ask if the TPTB had a set of special rooms set aside for all the greatest Generals of the IS at this time, so that they would not interfere with all the B and C rank Generals who were just winging it (satire)?
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Funny thing about the ONE bombardment during the invasion. It never happened again.
Funny thing about that ONE bombardment – the Falcons threatened the FC with a second bombardment and I still have not received an answer to the simple question as to how the IS House Lords came to know that the Clans would never engage in such a bombardment again, as both the hunting dog and the Ouija boards were inconclusive with an answer (satire).
So what we are saying here is all the Great Lords were willing to take it right up ……………. and do nothing afterwards? Really? Sorry but I really find this very hard to believe as from this point onwards their credibility as warrior houses (as far as the Clans are concerned) is shot to pieces – they have no credibility, so can I start handing out the white feathers now?
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Actually, the clans only striking forward is incorrect. The front lines did have to retake worlds behind them, and did hit the flank worlds as well.
And then we look at a map and ….
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It is also stated that the clan front lines started taking supplies from their PGCs in order to keep close to fully operational.
At this point can anyone explain why there wasn’t a dedicated campaign against the PGCs?
I would like to point out how few in numbers the PGCs were – so taking supplies from them would have absolutely no real impact when it comes the number of front-line invasion units who require logistical support.
Also, if this was the case then this indicates that the Clan(s) in question’s logistical issues are hitting rock bottom – thus why do we never see this in any of the novels etc … when it comes to their continued invasion / fight with the Com Guards?
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The castles were not effective against the WMDs as much as you want to believe.
And yet many were able to survive multiple nuclear hits … and then there are those facilities built underground that never fell …. Hesperus, for example … So I guess it comes down to where and how they were constructed.
The fact is that all sides should have manufactured vast numbers, and yet for some reason they do not exist.
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I believe you are confusing wars with battles.
Sorry no – if worlds can be depleted of their military in very quick order by mass warships how long should it take to kill of a Houses military if they incorrectly use their warship assets?
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this is not a space war game.
Then all warships and all warship incidents throughout time should be erased and replaced with something else!
TPTB put them in the game and made them Canon - so how is anyone going to remove them from the game now?
Limiting their numbers does not remove them …
And putting them in a box and trying to ignore them like they are in Coventry is also pointless …
Since they are in the game how will we deal with this fact?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/05/21 12:26 PM
45.51.181.83
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I believe you missed the point. Comstar knew of the system. It is possible the Dragoons didn't, but the other clans should have known about it. There were parts of the system still in place after the wars. As there were spies in ROM for both sides, it is not likely this was missed. Also, any traffic going thru Sol should have spotted some of it. A few war manufacturers were on Terra themselves, building and selling to the houses, as I have not heard of Aldis being shut down when WOB took over.
Incase you don't know, Aldis makes Demolishers and Behemoth tanks on Terra and ships them out.
The disclosure of once being a part of the invaders would not have enticed the house leaders to actually listen to them before the threat was known. The return of the SLDF had to be shown as very important, otherwise, the houses would have fallen on the Wolves to destroy them. This also does NOT tell how the Dragoons would be helping the houses. It is possible especially with the Black Widows TRINARY showing the clan tactics to the IS. Yes. That was active before the clan invasion.
Showing each house where they were weak would have been going on. The fact Wolfnet was capable of gaining intel that the other houses couldn't should have gotten more attention and didn't.
So the threat of a bombardment is the same thing as an actual bombardment? Then all war is one continual bombardment. Threats are always used to keep people in line. Or to surrender without a fight. The use of nukes stopped as all knew everyone would start using them again. So if you didn't want to be nuked, you stockpiled them, but didn't use them until someone else did. And the fact that if the CO had called the bluff, the threat wouldn't have worked. SO technically, the CO of the world's forces disobeyed orders to protect the world from invaders. This did not mean surrendering in order to avoid damage.
Look at the map. Is that not accurate in keeping with the clan goals? They were striking for Terra. They were NOT trying to take the entire IS during the invasion. This is called sticking to the objective. And what do you know? When they were stopped, they spread out some. I guess the strike at Coventry didn't happen, as it wasn't in a straight line to Terra.
It was stated why there was no concentrated campaign against the PGCs. The fact that the IS had no real solid intel on where the front lines where, they could not risk losing a huge chunk of forces being caught by the Omnis and the PGC. It was also told of the lack of ships to move troops around in order to do so. Some how this continues to be forgotten and re asked.
Again. The clans rarely used their entire unit. So when one unit took losses or had shortages, then they would pull from other units in the parent group. Alpha Galaxy has 3-5 clusters. Each cluster had 3-5 trinary/binary. Only in fights like the retaknig of Twycross did they use more then a cluster or two. So taking supplies from those that are not bid into a fight happened. The IS tended to avoid this, as discipline problems would arise. The clans did what they were told to do by their superiors. If bid for a fight, you fought. If bid to sit on the side lines, you complained, waiting for the next battle. Some did challenge and were shut down, as all knew, you could lose a fight with a foe if everyone that wasn't part of that fight, challenged everyone else. CGL is very prevalent here.
As they did have the pods they could change out, they could shift to more energy weapons when ammo was low. Armor was something that would be difficult to deal with.
Building castles that can survive an invasion doesn't happen. They can all be taken, but the question is at what cost? The recurring theme with this line of thought is the fact that all involved had other things to use their money on such as building cities. Keeping the flow of necessities, then luxuries flowing to all their people. Upgrading and maintaining roads, water supplies, and other infrastructure. There is no unlimited supply of money for the leaders. And for some, embezzling the money for their own fortunes was done.
The game does not deal with bunker buster missiles. Which we know can penetrate some of the best bunker set ups. So there is a section that is missing from the game. One that would change the entire story line.
How long did it take to fight any of the World wars? One side had overwhelming forces when it started, then got bogged down allowing the enemy to start doing a better job of killing them. For a single world to be invaded with using warships is not the same as taking out an entire house. The battle for a world could end quickly but the war is not over with that. Well that is IF the enemy didn't send their forces to take your leader while you were attacking the one world. But that is the exception, not the rule.
For your own Alt, you simple don't use them. As for dealing with canon, I don't see them being used often to affect your gameplay. I have yet to see any canon scenario where you have to fight with the threat of an orbital bombardment.
You have stated that in the alt, you do as you want. You want to remove things entirely, which for warships, I can agree. Leave them as dead entities. Removing nukes means destroying humanities nature. You do not have to use them. Now if trying to continue the canon line, which you have said you were getting away from, there is no way you can do so.
It is that simple.
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Requiem
09/05/21 06:39 PM
1.158.137.81
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It is possible the Dragoons didn't, but the other clans should have known about it.
Military Academy Education includes historical battles of note, in order to understand combat tactics and strategies.
I would, therefore, assert that during Sibko training this also is true – given the reverence / Cult standing the original Kerensky’s hold it would be illogical to assume that all of his battles would not be considered when it comes to the curriculum – none more so than that of the final campaign to retake Terra given their reverence for the world – which would also include a detailed discussion of the SDS system used by Amaris.
Thus the idea that ComStar / WOB also have access to this information should not have been a surprise to anyone – as their ComGuard are also former SLDF who fought and died to retake Terra – they have the same origin story! Thus they too should know about the SDS.
Also when a new House (in this case WOB) take command of a world from its previous owners – they also take command over all their industries … thus it would not be wise to discuss the affairs of their new masters … Also it may be that they did not know as they were not privy to this knowledge … as all they did know was the regarding the placement of massive new satellites, their exact purpose was unknown.
That said, prior to any major invasion shouldn’t it be standard doctrine to send in a reconnaissance / spy unit of one form or another?
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The return of the SLDF had to be shown as very important, otherwise, the houses would have fallen on the Wolves
Really? This is what is believed? Sorry but I will come down very hard on a proposition such as this if this was considered.
Just because Natasha Kerensky starts using a Trinary formation … and the Clans also use such a formation should have tipped all intelligence agencies off …
Though the main questions are never truly asked and answered as to why it took so long, and when is the right time to provide the IS with such information?
As the correct answer should be prior to the Clan’s arrival if they had decided to remain and fight for the Inner Spheres right to remain separate from the Clans and retain their own autonomy. Anything other than this can only be considered that the Dragoons are guilty of a coverup and only confessed as they are now about to be caught with their hand in cookie jar so to speak … (due to their use of the Trinary as well).
Also why are the Dragoons acting so half-hearted at this point in time? Why just show a fraction of the information? If they are in they should have been in ALL THE WAY!
Thus FULL DISCLOSURE prior to the invasion should have been the only way forward to demonstrate their allegiance to the Inner Sphere and not to the Clans.
Remember this is a political as well as a military decision – Waco Rangers are correct here, by not coming forward prior to Day 1 of the invasion their allegiance to the Inner Sphere can be brought into question.
The entire Dragoon incident of not communicating for 10 months all they knew is a crime that was just whitewashed by TPTB and demonstrates a complete lack of understanding at the seriousness of the issues at hand. I really am very disappointed that no one considered the political fall out such a late reveal would have by the Heads of all the Great Houses.
For in truth if just one true born was taken prisoner of war during this 10-months this Houses’ intelligence arm should have exactly the same information as that supplied by Wolf’s Dragoons when it comes to their ‘ceremonies of battle’ and history … (as proven within the Battletech Anime …)
So, this topic of information supplied by Jaime should not have been a great revelation …
In all reality Wolf’s Dragoons MUST be heavily sanctioned by all the Great Houses for such betrayal in the time taken to come forward and yet were just let off the hook – not even to be used on the front lines or as an oppfor unit at this point in time.
Sorry to say but I am not impressed – this really was not thought through from the many angles or was never truly understood / explored as to the ramifications of such a betrayal would entail!
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So the threat of a bombardment is the same thing as an actual bombardment?
YES!
How did the FC Commander know they would not follow through – more importantly how did the FC Military Commanders at HQ also not realize this was a bluff (Nondi Steiner and her Commander Morgan Hasek-Davion)?
The Clans have demonstrated a continued propensity as to their willingness to use orbital bombardment as a tool to victory – so how would any rational Military Commander respond?
At this stage there is only one rational answer – take out their warships by any means necessary – and as TPTB have removed all other options from the table this leaves the only weapon available - the tactical nuclear warhead!
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you stockpiled them, but didn't use them until someone else did.
This is the point … some else (the Clans) DID use a WMD first!
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And the fact that if the CO had called the bluff, the threat wouldn't have worked.
What is a military commanders primary duty?
Is it not to safeguard the people under her/his charge – the soldiers and the civilians – can she/he take this risk? As they have demonstrated a willingness to use them.
How many times must I continue to reiterate what should be a very obvious response to the use of WMDs on the battlefield?
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When they were stopped, they spread out some
This is looking at two distinct timelines – one during the invasion (when they are moving in a straight line) and one post invasion (when they got bored and decided to have some fun)
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The fact that the IS had no real solid intel on where the front lines where,
Can I laugh now?
Yes they knew all the worlds that had been taken and they knew exactly where the front lines were!
Also Partisan Forces should have provided info that these PGCs did not have OMNI Tech – they only had 2nd Line BattlMechs thus indicating they were not front line forces – they were something else (due to their available equipment). Thus the risk in taking them out is substantially lessened, especially if your aim is to capture Clan personnel and Technology.
As stated and reiterated many times the canon version of the invasion is an incredibly poorly written and executed that I have absolutely no belief in … this is why I recreated my own version!
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Again. The clans rarely used their entire unit.
And again we see pitiful writing ….
Post year of peace they should have had no option but to use their entire units as the war should have shifted to that of industrialized warfare …
I bid for a fight – I got squashed by a massive Corp of Inner Sphere forces (no longer just one RCT!) – I sent in the reserves, and they too were squashed …. As they now found themselves fighting against fixed and highly defensible positions as their Omnis and elementals lay exterminated all over the battlefield
So what next?
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Building castles that can survive an invasion doesn't happen.
So when someone parks a Warship over your planet you would find it better to hide under a table?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDjYx6y_KB4
For the past how many hundreds of years warships have been in existence and yet people still cling to the surface of a planet?
Time to get real – when the SLDF are building such fortifications en mass don’t you think it would be prudent to emulate this at the same time?
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you simple don't use them
So we are now back to – look at this new TRO and all this new equipment – ow and by the way you are not allowed to ever have this equipment for you game it is just there for you to look at scenario …
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I have yet to see any canon scenario where you have to fight with the threat of an orbital bombardment.
Isn’t this dependent upon the era in which your game is located?
So if you are in the Amaris-Kerensky war or 1st Succession War – this would be a given ….
3025 however becomes an impossibility unless someone has strapped a naval laser onto a Jump-ship.
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Now if trying to continue the canon line, which you have said you were getting away from, there is no way you can do so.
It is that simple.
Two options …
1. Re-integrate the Ares Conventions back into the game and rigidly enforce them … so that all WMDs and illegal use of Warships becomes impossible.
2. Introduce Energy shields to the game that make all WMDs and Orbital Bombardment a thing of the past …. And turns the game completely on its head …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/05/21 07:15 PM)
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ghostrider
09/05/21 07:42 PM
45.51.181.83
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The IS was not one entity. The CC was against sending anything to deal with the clans, while the FRR, FC, and DC had no choice. The FWL was sitting back, letting the others deal with the clans before the meeting. It was only after the meeting that the FWL started supplying the three with field refit kits. The CC still refused to help.
The Dragoons would have known this before the invasion. There isn't anything real about being a traitor to the IS, as were not born into the IS nations. The fact that each house would judge the Dragoons differently should cover any such concept like this.
This is not the first time this has been gone over. If anyone was a traitor to the IS, it was Comstar/WOB. But even their actions were not that far given the fact they could use protecting their own as an excuse. Good or bad, it is something most would concede to.
Full disclosure that you have warships, advanced tech and knowledge of what is to come, and you think they would not be strung up as soon as possible? And this is before the clans invaded. Remember that the Dragoons were not sure when the invasion would happen. They found out about the same time as the rest of the IS did. Natasha told Jamie they didn't know when it would happen, so use the time wisely.
Technically, the Dragoons were traitors to the clans, as they turned their backs on the clans even though Khan Ward told them to. The disobeyed the grand council.
How did the FC Commander know they would not follow through –
This is the very thing people have been telling you about why the IS didn't blitz the clans, nor why they could not take back worlds from them. Even if the action was not a threat but would have happened, the FC commander was under orders to protect the world from invaders. In some ways, they did. In most, he would have been tried as a coward.
When did a bombardment become labeled as a WMD? It should be, but it isn't. There is no complaint when other types were used in the 4th war and 3039 war. All houses had issues with occupation troops committing war crimes, yet nothing said. So again, the focus is just the clan invasion, not the use of those weapons.
The entire IS should be nothing but little tribes on worlds that can't contact each other with the idea that every action needs a full scale retaliation of the same thing. The succession wars should have ended with no one being left alive on most worlds. But the story is supposed to be set in the recovery phase after the great destruction of society.
Reiterate all you want. Most of the facts are against your concepts.
Both timelines show your statement of them only moving forward and not spreading out was misleading if not inaccurate. Their mission was to take Terra. With the exception of hitting the flanks to keep the IS from hitting the main driving force, it would make sense to go straight in. Until the IS learned of that, they could only guess as to what the clans were doing. They could well have been going after Defiance and were trying to throw off the IS by moving off slightly. This would prevent the IS from fortifying it so the clans would have to break with tradition and hit all at once. They could have been going a few other places as well. Terra would seem the target, yet Comstar didn't figure that out until told. The strike on Luthien was an offshoot of the main drive. So they DID spread out some.
So every war, everyone knew exactly where the enemy troops were at? This is not something as simple as someone driving a few hundred miles to get that intel out. Again, Comstar blocked all coms that would suggest where the clans forces were. They did not know how many or what types of forces the clans had. A very famous trap would be to have their 'frontline' forces causing diversionary strikes, while waiting with a large force to wipe out any counter attack. But this is something that does not rely on all forces being in the same location at once.
Refer to this statement: How did the FC Commander know. The first part of trying to suggest the defender didn't know, yet constantly you say they did. This is the same thing time after time.
Without the books telling you, how many troops did the clans have? How many clans were absorbed in the time the Dragoons were out of contact? How many units were made for the invasion? How many were being borrowed from other clans? How many units were made during the time the Dragoons were out of contact? The book tells you, Without it you don't know.
Again, read the books. Comstar gave up the intel needed to determine how many units were needed to destroy the defenders. It was off a few times, which is when the clans suffered the most. Wolcott was one of them, as Comstar did not know the units there were new or name changed elites. As for multiple RCTs, the main time I know of is when the Twycross liberation was attempted. The fact that a Cluster is more then capable of destroying an IS battalion, which should be, as the cluster is like 45 units verse the IS 36, a Galaxy is more then capable of destroying an RCT. Given the equipment and skill difference, two clusters should take out the RCT.
The underground building is why some SL caches are still intact. No one can find them.
To be honest, the fact that almost every world the clans invaded had warships overhead. And having a world that is tough to crack, you simply do what they did to Wolcott. You seize everything around it and start starving it out. You can continue to send in forces to stir them up, as clanners aren't worried about dying. They are concerned about dying with heaps of glory to their name.
Everyone wants to know how powerful a nuke would be in game terms. The developers provided that. It is the same with any big gun or weapon. It does not mean you should try them out at every opportunity, and then create more reasons to use them.
Name the adventure pack or single scenario that you have a warship hanging over your head. The only thing close is when you are fighting them, such as the Direwolf with Tyra.
So where is it written that you have to use them? If the bombardment concept was true, then no world would have escaped the orbital shots, even if it was nothing more then to remind the resistance their world could be taken out if they continue to resist. The trueborns without honor would think like this. Yet, only once did anyone try. And it wasn't a full world, but a single city. It was bad that it happened, but that is how you make people know you are serious. It has to happen once.
Enforcement is the problem with Battletech. There is no one that can enforce punishment on others. Interdiction means the realm could be destroyed, which moves the idea of a Blakean society away from Comstar. They need the houses to do what they were. Making it so only Comstar could do anything. Yet they stopped that with the 3rd war changes. No more total annihilation.
Energy shields only works as long as they are working. Sabotage will shut them down, allowing the ships to bombard. It is about the same thing as having ground batteries. And with shields, how do you land any craft on the world? Once you let it down for ships to come and go, you open up for bombardments. It also doesn't say weither the Steiner Arena can handle naval weapons. We only know it works with normal weapons. I have not seen them say the EMP doesn't take it out. Then again, it doesn't say it would stop a nuke, which would prompt the wholesale use of them again.
They might stop the initial blast, but what about the radiation or other effects?
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Requiem
09/06/21 12:31 AM
1.158.137.81
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The IS was not one entity.
In a sane universe –
Thank the AFFS for killing off the CC
And Thank the FWL for being materialistic in nature – willing to provide mass retrofit packages, for a price.
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There isn't anything real about being a traitor to the IS, as were not born into the IS nations.
The House Lords have a funny idea about what is and what is not important and who is a traitor … as everyone forgets that their position is on a razors edge when it comes to public opinion and how the military views certain incidents and units …
So for the past 10 months sons and daughters have been dying, en mass, against this “unknown enemy” … and then they are told the Dragoons knew all the time and they could have assisted to prevent unnecessary deaths … so how are the public talk shows and media (who drive public opinion) going to take this information …. Very poorly to outright hatred would be my guess – as for the military they would take a very dim view of the Dragoons at this point also
So in order to keep a lid on powder keg of public opinion - every leader would have to sanction the Dragoons – lest they too could lose their position when the mass riots start or if Waco’s Rangers Start beating the drums to killing off the Dragoons!
This is the reality of the situation once this information gets out – and it will get out as many within the IS military have absolutely no love for the Dragoons.
So prior to this the Dragoons would have to concede to joining the Front line or becoming a training unit at the minimum.
Both the FC and the DC would have no choice in this matter – so unless they want to give up Outreach and flee to the FWL or to the periphery where they will instantly be labelled traitors to the IS they will have no choice but accept the sanctions as stipulated.
Please remember at this stage ComStar’s perfidy is unknown and WOB did not exist.
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Remember that the Dragoons were not sure when the invasion would happen.
Isn’t this why you have contingency plans in place – they knew from their last meeting with their former Khan the invasion was coming so why couldn’t you have a person on every capitol world with a document, with one instruction once the Clans arrive deliver the note to their respective leader together with all the information attached ….
Or better yet they could have asked for this meeting prior to the invasion and let them know in advance what is about to occur … ie. a true preparation for the war to come!
As for using the time wisely – once again (like so many before and after) this never occurred and was squandered by TPTB as they did not understand what they were proposing or how to write it. (in my opinion!)
If the Dragoons took 10 months – they are traitors to the Clans and the IS!
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… the FC commander was under orders to protect the world from invaders
Sorry but I hold this with derision.
When invaded what is the logical response – to drive them out and regain what was lost.
This is the only orders that the Commander was under – by any means necessary!
As for being a coward, hardly, the correct situation is AWOL due to TPTB unwilling to allow them into the invasion – locked in a room in another universe!
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When did a bombardment become labelled as a WMD?
There are very strict rules as to the conduct of War on land and at Sea
circa WW1 – International Humanitarian Law, from there on it has been refined …
Thus since the first time it was proposed to be used on civilian target.
A good example of this is the Ares Conventions …
Article I forbade the use of nuclear weapons against all civilian targets and planets and military targets within 75,000 kilometers of a planet.
Article II forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not anywhere near populated areas.
Given that they are Article I and II you can take from that the severity of the situation.
So yes the focus is on these types of weapons – from all previous wars not just the Clan War.
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they could only guess as to what the clans were doing
Take a pencil ruler and a map of the IS with the Clan holdings so far – draw two lines down from the two extremities of the Clan invasion – then review what worlds are within this area that could be considered important – Then when you take the information that the Clans were once the SLDF there is one undeniable conclusion that the target is Terra!
It is not really a great leap of intelligence.
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Again, Comstar blocked all coms that would suggest where the clans forces were.
Good luck with that – once the invasion had been identified every world with a military presence would be required to send an update.
Then there are Black Boxes
Then there are units escaping from the Clans – and if they have human POWs even better!
Then there are escaping Jump-ships
Sorry but this is quite impossible especially when you realise that there was period of time between when the invasion started and when the Clans sent representatives to the Clans – during which time they were still sending messages out. Thus anything different than this norm for this time would be seen immediately as a red flag incident.
The Dragoons may not have known exact figures – but they could have supplied them with their best guess ….
Then as more time and more information is obtained the IS can gain a better picture of what is going on
Intelligence takes time!
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Comstar gave up the intel needed to determine how many units were needed to destroy the defenders
They knew what was where at the start of the invasion.
However as the invasion progresses and HQ for all House forces starts to move pieces on the board that knowledge evaporates rather quickly.
It is not like the canon version of events where we see units just sitting there waiting to be hit – demonstrating an altogether pitiful excuse for a story.
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The fact that a Cluster is more then capable of destroying an IS battalion,
A Galaxy is more then capable of destroying an RCT.
Cluster … on average three to five Trinaries.
Galaxy … two to six Clusters.
In such a situation isn’t it logical for any House commander to consider reforming
Corps … three RCTs
Army … three to five Corps
And take on the Clans head-to-head in massive battels of industrialized slaughter.
As can the Clans keep fighting with rising level of killed Warriors given that they use a Sibko system as the primary means of replacement personnel?
Ans – no they can not – they do not have the logistical support and they most definitely do not have the replacement personnel when it comes to a sibko system.
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They are concerned about dying with heaps of glory to their name.
What glory is there in an atomic flash?
Either they come to the table to devise a set of war accords or M.A.D. – there is no other way once they start using Orbital Bombardments.
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Everyone wants to know how powerful a nuke would be in game terms. The developers provided that. It is the same with any big gun or weapon.
How about actually looking up the temperature of an atomic blast as well as its radius ?
The rules as per the TPTB are one thing – reality is another.
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Name the adventure pack or single scenario that you have a warship hanging over your head.
Which Era?
Reunification War
Amaris – Kerensky War
Succession wars (until they became extinct)
Clan Wars
How about Turtle Bay …
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It was bad that it happened, but that is how you make people know you are serious. It has to happen once.
And in any sane universe a proportional strike should have been used to kill off that ship – problem is the only ordinance available is a nuke.
It has to happen once to demonstrate to the Clans – keep off the grass!
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There is no one that can enforce punishment on others.
1. ComStar
2. Those security agencies within the house whose allegiance is to the state not the idiot who sits on the throne.
3. Family members of the ruler who decide enough is enough and either have the idiot killed off quietly or start a civil war.
4. The lone gunman
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Energy shields only works as long as they are working. Sabotage will shut them down
1st. What happens if they have multiple.
2nd What happens when the delay in trying to get through is what they were after – time to call in their navy
Steiner stadium – 1st Version – what happens to when you reach the 5th or 10th Version of this technology ? something TPTB were never interested in exploring …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/06/21 02:56 AM
45.51.181.83
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The example given to what the IS would do to the Dragoons is pretty much what would have happened if they had said earlier that they were part of the SLDF forces that left. With the invasion, the hatred turns to hope as the Dragoons did start helping to hold back the clans, as well as inform the leaders of what to expect. No matter how things go, you will always have someone that wants blood. That is a constant.
Also, the Dragoons did NOT know when the clans would come, so saying anything before hand is pretty much someone crying wolf, no pun intended.
WOB did exist. They just didn't show themselves yet. What they did was not something that happens over night, but takes years of planning.
So you want thousands of documents ready to go, with any single one set being stolen would destroy the entire IS. In the hands of say Ryan Steiner, this would have given him the chance to pull Skye out of the LC/FC, and even seen him try to side with the clans when they came in. Comstar would have done far more, with them actively sending warships out with the explorer fleets in order to find their home worlds, probably causing the invasion long before it came, with all clans being part of it, as they would NOT have bid on the invasion but to participate in the destruction of the IS before they got to the clan home worlds. WOB is harder to figure out. They would have used the materials to do the same as Comstar or used it to frame Comstar, suggesting they were in contact with the clans since they left, and WOB was kept from those coms.
When were they supposed to even try to get the documents going? When they first got into the IS? Simply bringing in the warships and exclusive units would have done that. Showing the Minnesota Tribe was a fallen clan would have created havoc or worse. Start a movement to welcome the SLDF back into the IS, causing the 5 nations to split up? This news before the FC was create, may well have prevented it entirely.
One more side effect. If those documents got into the public, there would have been a massive drive to steal jumpships in order to head to the clan home worlds, further making them think THEY were being invaded.
The fact that having the clans landing meant they were not invading elsewhere until they took the world should be more then enough reason to refuse to surrender. Otherwise, the rest of the worlds would just surrender, as it meant their worlds would not suffer the damage. The entire defense would fall.
Still don't see an answer of when bombardments become WMDs. Every treaties dealing with such events has always been violated by power mad leaders. Sometimes the populations demand it as someone struck their lands with it. Bombardment causes heavy damage, but it supposed to be limited to a smaller area then say a single nuke. Chemical and biological weapons are unpredictable at best. A wind storm can blow it for hundreds of miles in the wrong direction, if airborne.
Also, the military operations in the city would have given the green light for an bombardment. I don't like that idea, but it is very much the thinking of more then a few leaders.
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ghostrider
09/06/21 03:32 AM
45.51.181.83
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Besides reading a book with all the information, how do you know they were not going to stop with taking out the FRR? Or if they intended to split the IS in half? Go so far, then punch out to the sides taking the top sections of the IS for themselves? Given the fear the DC had with the SLDF before they left, this could well have been something to remove the DC, with the strike against the LC to stall any help that might have been given to the DC. Without the books, I could say a second force was moving towards the OA and getting set up to punch thru that way. Taking Twycross and Hesperus would mean removing a large chunk of reinforcements for the LC. So your straight line theory for taking out Amaris could well be used to removing those manufacturers for the LC, and giving it to the invaders.
The messages going out to the IS were faked messages. Basically repeats of the all clear. Unless there were spies in Comstar, you would NOT know if messages were being sent to the invaders. Given the time tables Comstar kept, this may very well have been normal operations.
Given the fact the crusaders wanted to invade the IS, but no real goal was given, the Dragoons could not know if that meant taking all the worlds in the IS. They could see the numbers issue, but that did not mean they wouldn't try.
The IS DID have larger units then just the RCTs. They are called Brigades. The 8 Cruisus Lancers RCTs formed a Brigade. They were not put in one large group, and to move them all at once meant risking a huge chunk of your jumpships. The IS knew the clans had and used them after Turtle Bay. They would eat up jumpships and strand any units that lived thru that disaster. That meant they would be destroyed without much gained from the attempt.
No other way? Interesting that the story line DID do it another way. They did it in a way that follows the clans honor system, as well as prevented another nuke fest. The fact that the result isn't to your liking doesn't change this fact.
Now for the counter question. Why didn't Taskforce Serpent just nuke the clan homeworlds when they got there? This would have ended the clan threat once and for all? TPTB did not want to go down that road.
Still not thinking the game rules have the last word on what works and how? You want a canon storyline, that means you use the canon concepts. Why didn't Star Trek, or Star Wars use nukes to fight? Why didn't every SciFi storyline just resort to nukes?
What is the name of the scenario? What book is it in? The only time I seen anywhere that a fight happened when the enemy had a warship in play was the Tyra suicide run. Nothing on the ground. So tell me a name so I can look it up.
Why wait before nuking the clans? You want keep off the grass, you do it when they first hit, so they don't continue to invade. And with that, why stop destroying anything that opposes you? The 2nd war should not have ended until all your enemies worlds glowed brighter then the star they orbited.
Comstar was probably helping people use those weapons. It makes the citizens start turning on the governments, sending them into working for Comstar.
Security agents working in the government? The government is the ones most likely to use such devices. To try and stop them is basically being a traitor. The commander in chief has a lot of leeway to dealing with the enemy. Some chose poorly.
Do you think Kali would stop Sun Tzu from using WMDs against the FC? She would applaud it, and demand more. Sun Tzu did nothing to stop Kali from using them, but was worried the others would use them back. More then a few houses had this sort of problem. Nuke the enemy as they upset you.
The lone gunman. How many of them would be needed to take out all the leaders at once? Except the bs of the assassin that killed Melisa and Omi, assassins do not get the chance to perform more then once. And if you had them before hand, then you send them in to avoid using the WMD.
The entire concept of the Shield base on the Arena grid has the mesh grid that is charged to create the energy barrier. How do you do this and still allow space craft access to the world? How many layers can you make, and how much power does it take to keep each one working? Can you prevent someone from taking out part of the network?
Time to call in the navy? Do you believe that every world has a navy? Or that the navy wasn't destroyed before the invaders got to the world?
The Shield was a poor idea to begin with. It created an effect that would have destroyed the game had they pushed it. So they left it as a novelty. Something they should have done with warships.
The metal shields mechs can carry is violating their own rules of how much armor can be put on a mech, much like the modular armor. As the excuse for modular armor is adding in extra supports means this should be standard for mechs, not an add on.
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Requiem
09/06/21 06:43 AM
1.158.137.81
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With the invasion, the hatred turns to hope as the Dragoons did start helping to hold back the clans,
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wolf%27s_Dragoons#Clan_Invasion
3050 - Wolf recalled all Dragoons to Outreach - the sudden, unannounced withdrawal of Epsilon Regiment and Zeta Battalion from Andurien
3051 - conference on Outreach
3051 - Luthien
For one battle – yes that really helped (satire)
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so saying anything before hand is pretty much someone crying wolf, no pun intended.
In a Clan-style Trial of Position in July, Victor finished third among the assembled heirs. Kai's refusal to accept Jaime's gift put Victor in possession of a Daishi he named "Prometheus" because of its energy-heavy weaponry.
Question how do you cry wolf when you can provide a Daishi as an example of what you are about to come up against?
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WOB did exist. They just didn't show themselves yet.
Discussing 3050 to 3051 early
WOB schism did not evolve until 3052
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deliver the note to their respective leader together with all the information attached ….
So how big is an encrypted computer stick these days?
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when bombardments become WMDs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimate...0be%20justified,to%20the%20concrete%20and%20direct
Protocol 1 of the 1977 Geneva Conventions would also be a good place to start
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Besides reading a book with all the information, how do you know they were not going to stop with taking out the FRR
The first POW taken in combat
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The messages going out to the IS were faked messages. Basically repeats of the all clear.
Encrypted message – good luck without the key – also doesn’t the code change daily?
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Given the fact the crusaders wanted to invade the IS, but no real goal was given
Then why was the idea of the il-Clan created and the idea of first to Terra, just like all their other childish games … ?
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The 8 Cruisus Lancers RCTs formed a Brigade. They were not put in one large group, and to move them all at once meant risking a huge chunk of your jumpships.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Crucis_Lancers
All eight Crucis Lancer RCT's were used in the Fourth Succession War's assault on Tikonov.
So its OK during the 4th Succession War, however, when it comes to the Clan invasion this is now an impossibility – even after they have manufactured more Jumpships between the 4th and the Clan War?
Lions for Lambs ….
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They did it in a way that follows the clans honor system, as well as prevented another nuke fest.
And went totally against the Samurai code as well as the House Honour Code … and created a story that suggests both Theodore and his father Takashi take it ……….. rather than actually being Samurai …. Can we say seppuku or Subash Indrahar will kill them off and put someone in who will actually do the job!
Doesn’t change the fact this is very poorly written story as it completely ignores the DC culture.
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Why didn't Taskforce Serpent just nuke the clan homeworlds when they got there?
So genocide is the way forward? – sorry too many PC at this stage, and not enough Curtas La May / Douglas MacArthur types in the planning and execution.
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Why didn't every SciFi storyline just resort to nukes?
1. Either the empire went PC
2. they discovered a far more lethal weapon
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The only time I seen anywhere that a fight happened when the enemy had a warship in play was the Tyra suicide run.
First Wave March-April 3050
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion_corridor_-_Clan_Jade_Falcon
he element of surprise in these opening attacks was further compounded by the Clans' general technological superiority, allowing their WarShips to evade detection until they were already in orbit of the planet and their DropShips and 'Mechs to use landing zones normally considered too rugged for most troops.
Nt - this indicates that it was SOP for the clans to use Warships as transports in the early stages of the Invasion!!!!!
First Wave March-April 3050
Turtle Bay
Finally Galaxy Commander Cordera Perez commanded all Smoke Jaguar warriors to withdraw from Edo and for Beta Galaxy's WarShip, the Sabre Cat, to level the city. Repeated strikes from the ship's autocannons and laser weapons bombarded Edo until there was nothing left but smoking debris.
4th Wave – September – October 3050
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zoetermeer
“The WarShips orbited the planet and forced the survivors of the 10th Donegal Guards RCT & Alpha Battalion of the 12th Star Guards to surrender or be bombarded.”
31 October 3050
Radstadt
Tyra Niraborg crashed her Shilone into the Clan Wolf Flagship Dire Worlf
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You want keep off the grass, you do it when they first hit, so they don't continue to invade.
You need a pretext to use nukes – ie. a Turtle Bay or a Zoetermeer
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Do you think Kali would stop Sun Tzu from using WMDs against the FC?
Apples and oranges ….
Then give me another weapon that can take out a warship circa 3050 -3051
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The lone gunman
Assassin – Snow Fire – 2850 …
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How do you do this and still allow space craft access to the world?
You don’t you use a shield that covers a city or a base – the energy requirements for an entire planet would be staggering …
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Do you believe that every world has a navy?
Every world – PT craft I would say yes as they are just retrofitted Drop-Ships
Anything larger and its state controlled.
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The Shield was a poor idea to begin with. It created an effect that would have destroyed the game had they pushed it. So they left it as a novelty.
Problem was they did and they made shields for mechs …
As for violating the rules sorry but I disagree if you have a hand then you should be allowed to pick up anything at any time that can be made into a shield – I would even aloe throwing rocks … or as an exercise on an artic world – a snow ball fight in Mechs! If you have hands then why not?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/06/21 12:58 PM
45.51.181.83
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The fact that when the Dragoons started getting the leaders on track, the IS was losing. After the meeting, the IS started winning a few battles. The fact that there was now hope to stop the clans. If they had said anything before, it wouldn't have done much good. And if I know right, the Dragoons were training others as well, not just the house leaders on Outreach.
Still not seeing timing was the key? Even with the tech, which would definitely have had the houses coming to destroy the Dragoons for it, saying the clans were coming in 3005 or even 3039 and them not showing up almost immediately, would have turned everyone against them. If not for the books telling use exactly WHEN it would happen, the fact is, the clans could have waited even longer.
So the goal of taking Terra and leaving the rest of the IS due to a lack of forces was known to the Dragoons? So what was the goals known to the Dragoons before they left, or when Khan Ward told them to defect? Section out the IS and bring in more clans or the vanguard was to do so, then wipe out all houses?
The Crusis Lancers we only together for the Tikonov invasion. They were not used together before or since then. As said, the number of ships required to move them in one unit was massive. As the invasion was stretched over the front, they needed those jumpships to ferry troops across the front. As the Lancer are a premier unit, they were kept where they could deter incursions from others. They would be used when the IS started pushing back.
Remember that warships were normally part of a bid, so they would normally be used to transport part of the unit they were attached to. So it would make sense that they would have the dropships of the units attached.
Still harping on the fact that the game does not follow Bushido in the way you wanted them to? As said before, but ignored so many times, it is based on Japanese Bushido, but not exactly followed. It states that in a few books. The fact that more people were not of Japanese descent should also show you why it can not be exact. Running a nation that is hundreds of light years in size requires modification to any sort of code that was enforced when the nation was only a few thousand miles, not billions.
As you still think they would have survived the succession wars, where the code would not allow them to stop, yet did, this removed the premise for the argument.
The examples given do NOT tell of the canon scenario that you play that has a warship ready to obliterate the world.
As I have not seen any scenario that has a warship in anything but the clan invasion and beyond, that should limit the search. The SL era doesn't seem to have any scenarios for it that you can play.
Snow Fire took out the leaders of the CC? FWL? FS?
Even a city is going to require massive amounts of power. But limiting it to just a city means the enemy can land and start destroying things. Not sure if the shield can be built below ground, so there lies an issue. Even if it did, you can blow up lands under it to cause the portions of the city to distort and fall apart, which would destroy the shield mesh as well as the structures that hold it in place. And there is still no answer on if this stops naval weapons and nukes.
Speaking of naval grade weapons the idea of ground batteries means they were be in an armored bunker when not in use. The same type that would be used to protect normal artillery from orbital bombardment, or your castles. There would also be multiple set ups as there is no way to protect a world from a single location. The curvature of the world would prevent this. It would be smart, if you have the resources, to have multiple overlapping fields of fire.
It is in some novels of hand held axes being throw, though those that are hand replacements couldn't be done. More of the issue of novel writers breaking the rules.
For an alt setting, this could be a thing. For canon, no rules given. Even if no damage given, it could be used as a means to disrupt another's ability to target in that or the next round. The phase issue being a problem. Physical attacks coming after ranged fired. Maybe even causing a piloting roll on the target if hit.
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Requiem
09/06/21 04:32 PM
1.158.137.81
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The fact that when the Dragoons started getting the leaders on track, the IS was losing.
In the canon universe where all the Greatest Generals are locked in a room, in an alternate universe, and are not allowed to assist in the defence in the Inner Sphere.
With regards to canon, therefore – very poor writing.
The majority information provided by Wolf’s Dragoons can easily be obtained via any POW as they could have been provided a bondcord and made into an IS Bondsman and assisted with the Inner Sphere with Training.
As for winning – Wolcott occurred October 3050 – WITH OUT the assistance of Wolf’s Dragoons information.
So when it comes down to brass tax what did the Dragoons really do for the IS during this meeting other than get all the leaders together in one room at the same time?
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Still not seeing timing was the key?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wolf%27s_Dragoons
3019 – “During this final supply run, Khan Kerlin Ward, fearing that a Clan invasion would destroy the Inner Sphere, secretly altered the Dragoons' mission: He ordered Jaime Wolf and Natasha Kerensky to prepare the Inner Sphere for the Clan invasion”.
They had from 3020 to 3050 to “prepare the Inner Sphere for the Clan invasion”
And their preparation consisted of ……….. what exactly?
How hard could it have been to work in the background to increase the Inner Spheres technology in order to prepare the Inner Sphere.
They even had an opportunity when employed with the Draconis Combine 3023-3028 – after they had received orders to prepare the Inner Sphere and yet the newly discovered the technology was buried.
They knew where many of the old Star League Bases were – they even had Snord’s Irregulars out looking for them … and yet nothing.
They knew the Clans had warships a point major strategical deficiency with regards to any engagement with the Clans – thus they should have determined that any engagement will result in a nuclear exchange if the Inner Sphere did not have a Naval force of their own … and yet nothing.
They could have assisted with weapons technology … and yet nothing.
When considering the time the Dragoons had and the options available to them a charge of treason against the Inner Sphere is becoming increasingly easy to prove!
So again I state that if the Dragoons want to prove their innocence it must be done in battle against the Clans for the entire duration of the remaining Clan Invasion!
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The Crusis Lancers we only together for the Tikonov invasion. They were not used together before or since then.
Still proves the point, they can all be moved as one force against a target – if it can be done in the 4th Succession War then it most assuredly can be done during the Clan Invasion War!
The jump-ships and dropships are there as per 4th Succession War
Then if you factor in the Alt Universe theory that the CC should have been absorbed into the FC either during the 4th Succession War or the war of 3039 the FC has now access to even more Jump-ships and Dropships – then there is the CC Jump-ship and Dropship manufacturing facilities – thus making the idea that the FC did not have enough Jump-ships and Dropships available for the Clans War impossible. The FC would have had ample available for the Clan Invasion!
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Remember that warships were normally part of a bid, so they would normally be used to transport part of the unit they were attached to. So it would make sense that they would have the dropships of the units attached.
And by extension they would now be located above the world being invaded.
And as such a military target – So with what weapon system has TPTB provided the Inner Sphere with to defend themselves against a warship in orbit?
I do believe that the answer is only one – Thermonuclear.
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it is based on Japanese Bushido, but not exactly followed.
This is a question of Honour and duty – there is absolutely no way of getting around this by attempting to equivocate the point – House Honour and Takashi would demand the retaliatory strike.
Theodore has no choice in the matter – that is unless he wants to commit Seppuku
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The SL era doesn't seem to have any scenarios for it that you can play.
In the Canon universe where the story has become a lemming jumping off the cliff … defying all reason and logic, creating a massive black hole in its wake …
They are the biggest gun on the battlefield – thus any sane general must designate them a threat and do everything they can to remove them …
We all know who Snow Fire assassinated …
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Even a city is going to require massive amounts of power. But limiting it to just a city means the enemy can land and start destroying things.
Yes they can – they can land and attack – without the aid of a warship in orbit utilizing an orbital bombardment … which is what the point is all about.
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More of the issue of novel writers breaking the rules.
Sorry I disagree – the issue is the rules not keeping pace with reality … if you have a hand held weapon then by logic you should be able to throw it. As it is not permanently attached …
Also how many Mech jockeys would consider it a “cool move” and train in secret to use this tactic?
If you can pick it up then you can throw it!
Yes there are many considerations when it comes to thrown items, for canon it is up to the TPTB or your game you could write your own Home rules.
Still think the idea of having a snow ball fight in Mechs is a great idea – it should have been included in a novel somewhere …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/06/21 07:35 PM
45.51.181.83
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Where was all the resources, including funding, come from to work in the background? Wolfnet was funded by the clans, which is odd, as spying was something they supposedly hated, yet did.
just what were they supposed to do? They were gaining intel on strengths and weaknesses of each house. That alone gave them a big advantage on how each nation would fight. Were they supposed to give out clan tech to each house? As they did train some units from different houses, this was a start.
Unlike the houses, where was the Dragoons supposed to get replacements for casualties? It isn't like they had the large scale iron wombs, though they did have some. Time to train would have made that impossible to replace warriors quickly. Hiring in outsiders was not done, as their background as well as tech was something they could not afford to fall into the wrong hands. Giving it to one house would destroy the IS, as they would make it and go to war with everyone else. This would have removed the ability to defend against the clans.
Warships required parts that no house could even begin to make before the Helm Core. To even suggest doing so would have had Comstar go to war with the Dragoons. Lots of pirate raids in SL mechs would be common. Even if those mechs were stripped of high tech like the DC got.
The fact that using those ships started the economy of the FS into a tailspin. And with this, the LC had the forces to stop the clans. They just didn't know how to fight them at the time, and the FS DID start sending their units to help. Nondi and the local commanders couldn't use them as they needed to because the social generals were still there in force. The bs of the 3039 hit against them shows this.
The fact that Turtle Bay was the ONLY instance of a warship being used to strike ground targets in the invasion shows it wasn't necessary. A single officer had a temper tantrum and cause the entire clan to suffer a black eye. They were removed from the combat zone for it. The fact that the other clans started removing their warships once they found out the IS didn't have any is yet another showing of this. The only kept a few to prevent the other clans from using them in a bid. Warships became a burden for the invading clans when Ulric bid away the Direwolf against the Bears in the opening bid.
On the flip side, the clans should have been ready to be hit with nukes. The IS was well known to resort to them, as they were barbarians.
The idea of wasting so many troops and losing worlds to try and hunt down the ship, as well as destroy it is a far greater loss of face then the bombardment is. Takashi knew this. So he suffered the loss of face instead of being impulsive and doing a far more costly mistake. And you can modify the house honor demands. You are not defending a single city, or even the Japense islands. You are defending thousands of world that require attention. This is no longer just dealing with a small nation. As constantly ignored statements that the DC would have killed itself during the succession wars, as each nuke on their world would demand full retribution, the DC could not stop.
Snow Fire killed one leader. Not multiples. Your example of the lone wolf was what brought that up. A lone wolf can NOT hold all leaders responsible for using nukes and bombardments.
And as you do not have an adventure pack or scenario, the warship bombardment is in the back ground. Just like nukes. Poisons are something you do deal with.
The point that the Arena shield should have been made to protect a world from an invader, became one to protect a single city, and even then it doesn't do the job. And you say that is the point? What good is it, if it can't protect the city? Just make the enemy have to use a different method then normal?
There are no rules dealing with throwing items in a mech. That is the point of breaking the rules. They do far more with other things.
But before you start suggesting the use of thrown materials, understand that someone will demand that mech size grenades be made. Which could well be a ton of ammo for say an AC 20 or a ton of LRM ammo. Why bother with the launchers when you can just throw a grenade that would do the same damage as a full ton of ammo?
Hell, just make a launcher that would do it for you. A real Trebuchet or Catapult.
And there you go, Your alternative to nukes against a warship. Just fire off bombs or grenades.
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Requiem
09/06/21 10:14 PM
1.158.137.81
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Where was all the resources, including funding, come from to work in the background?
How vast is the technological difference between the Clans and The Inner Sphere?
How easy would be - created patents for star league era technology?
How easy it would be to unbury lost Star League era fortresses that contain vast wonders that with assistance with any Great House would bring vast wealth.
Under the Irregulars Museum lies a vast medical facility … what would the value of this be to the Inner Sphere ….
Snord’s “finds” could bring untold wealth … and at the same time return the Inner Sphere to a level of technology that has been unseen in hundreds of years …
In such as situation they use the Inner Sphere’s people and resources – they are just the sparkplug that starts the engine ….
Wolfnet was created by Nicky Kerensky in his bid to kill of the wolverines …
In the grand scheme of things training a few units is a far cry from protecting the Inner Sphere when you consider the technology gap!
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where was the Dragoons supposed to get replacements for casualties?
They sought out young war orphans to train …
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Giving it to one house would destroy the IS
As it did with the Helm Memory core?
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To even suggest doing so would have had Comstar go to war with the Dragoons.
How? The Dragoons are too prominent – it would have to be done from the shadows and even then it would be too late the technology has been disseminated – technology is on the rise it is not as if ComStar can stop technological development on hundreds of worlds all at the same time!
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The fact that using those ships started the economy of the FS into a tailspin.
Basic Economics – Capital Spending
Then why build the Hoover Dam during the depression? Public spending such as this is designed to kickstart the economy not retard it.
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Nondi and the local commanders couldn't use them
As stated many times – SHE IS NOT IN COMMAND – Marshal of the Armies Morgan Hasek Davion is … As for social generals this cannot be the case as the Lyran Alliance and the supposed return of the Social General occurred after the FC split back to Lyran / Suns component – that is 3057 when Katherine took command of her half of the realm.
Thus 3050 to 3057 we have a professionally run military. The weeding out of social generals started prior the Wedding with Hanse and Melissa ….
The 3039 bs is due to very poor writing – and in my opinion would have been vastly different when you consider the LC fighting during the 4th Succession War … who’s contact was exemplary and yet we are supposed to believe their conduct went backwards from this in 3039 … sorry but this is not the case, it is once more a very poorly written story that does not take into consideration past events.
What was the original discussion regarding lone wolves? There is no one who can enforce punishment on others … my reply … lone gunman – eg. Snow Fire there are others who can achieve multiple targets such as Dancing Joker …. Who killed Melissa Steiner, Ryan Steiner and Omi Kurita ….
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And as you do not have an adventure pack or scenario, the warship bombardment is in the background.
So because of pitiful writing no one should attack the biggest threat on the battlefield?
In reality the biggest threat on the battlefield is designated as the primary target – the German Kriegsmarine battleship Bismarck is an excellent example!
Semantics and pitiful writing cant change the facts once a warship is brought into the battlefield it must be taken out with all due alacrity …
So if Nobutake Kondo’s invasion fleet attacked Pearl Harbour through a land invasion (rather than using aircraft carriers) does this mean that the US Pilots on Pearl are only allowed to attack the landing ships and the infantry as they wade ashore – since Kondo’s warships are not firing their guns, they are just sitting off Hawaii, they should now be designated as non-combatants? As this is what is being discussed here … ANS is?
A. they would be designated as hostile and would be attacked as well
B. they should be designated as non-combatants and ignored
C. other
So if TPTB can’t provide the IS with an adequate ships and weapon system the only weapon remaining is Thermonuclear. Or have you found some other weapon system available to the IS to take on a warship?
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What good is it if it can't protect the city?
It does the job it was designed for – it protects the city from orbital bombardment – and as this is supposed to be an army game it allows the army to land and come in under the shield to attack or do you want a dome shield where they land and just sit outside hoping that they run out of food ?
This is the aim of a shield – remove orbital bombardments / nukes – make them obsolete from the game!
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someone will demand that mech size grenades be made
And why not? They can have the same damage characteristics as a drop bomb from a fighter – simple ….
Also the Mech can have an AC rifle with clips attached to the outside of the Mech to which it can reload …
It can have a knife or a sword strapped to it also
Still do not see the problem.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/06/21 11:03 PM
45.51.181.83
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Coming up with all the lostech ideas, as well as showing the locations of the lost League bases would have had so many attempts to capture, kill, black mail and other things on the Dragoons, it wouldn't be funny. How could they even begin to infiltrate the houses if no one could trust them. And as stated, it was only when the Dragoons left the LC in 3019, did they get the order to help the IS prepare. They could not do so until they learned how the DCMS operated besides fighting them? It was during the 4th war, they left the DC's employ. At that point, they were so torn up, any hint of high level tech on them would have resulted in the rush to take it by force, even the FC would have done so. So after 3019, they had so many chances to prepare the IS for the clans.
The Helm Core was not given to a single house. The only nation that didn't get a copy was the CC, and they finally got the tech thru other means. Before the Helm Core the FC did not really exist. So two nations got the core that became one. Yet if the Dragoons would have given the info to Davion when they first entered, the FC would not have come about. It would also have placed the FS as Comstar's target before Walterly. Comstar would have also been working to destroy the Dragoons as well.
Might need to recheck the history of the Dragoons. They were not prominent when they first arrived, and some of the mechs they did bring with them, would have given the houses a prime target. The CC would have been fine working with Comstar to destroy them. And a 'leak' of intel to the DC would have had them working to remove the Dragoons from history. That level of tech would mean the end of the DC.
To build the Hoover dam, did they have to import items from another world? Did the rest of the worlds in the FS get the same treatment? As stated, I don't remember anyone that buys debt to pay for such things in the game. And with that, did the U.S. have to watch out for attacks on their lands? I don't recall pirates, mercs, and other entities attacking the U.S. during that phase.
Might need to reread the articles of the FC. The point you made about Katherine pulling the LC out of the FC is the very thing that was used to keep the FS out of the LC during the initial attacks. Nondi commanded the LC portion military. Even the 20 year update said that. Yes, that was a little before the clans but was still in effect when the clans got it.
And with this, why would Morgan go with Victor if he was in charge of the AFFC to Huntress? That would mean both the commanders were out of touch for 6 months at least.
If social generals were removed from the LC, then their replacements were even worse. And the fact that regional commanders were politicians means they could not be gotten rid of.
The lone gunman. How many of them would be needed to take out all the leaders at once? Except the bs of the assassin that killed Melisa and Omi, assassins do not get the chance to perform more then once. And if you had them before hand, then you send them in to avoid using the WMD.
That was the first statement of that topic. The bs assassin that killed Katherine and Omi was just that. BS.
Besides Turtle Bay, when was the next time a warship actually fired on a world? The FC civil war. The biggest threat was not used. Given the concept, as soon as a warship was even spotted, then the nukes should have been fired. But then the biggest threat to the IS has always been the nukes. So why did the total warfare stop when nukes were still being made?
So how many aerofighters were there to strike at the warships when they first appeared? Maybe 6? A dozen? None? Oh yeah. I forgot the land of plenty in the alt, which does not equal canon, which is being argued with this. So yeah. Send up the 6 fighters and wait. I would guess they did and the fighters got wiped out. That would have happened with just the dropships being sent down, not even reaching the warship. So yet again, your false numbers have you making faulty conclusions of what happened. Look at the number of fighters Towne had when the Black Dragons invaded. Oh yeah. You read between the lines and seen 3 aerofighter regiments. Not a simple 6 fighters.
TPTB did come up with a counter to the warships. It was not instantaneous. And I did not hear any complaints that the CC should have had more forces to defend with when the 4th war happened. Or that the FS should have had more forces when the DC nearly destroyed it in the first war.
I want to say warships should have stayed dead, but then they never really died off. Comstar had their mothball fleet, while the clans had theirs. What would the complaint be if Comstar had pulled a WOB in 3000? Simple coms black out to prevent word from spreading quickly. No black box tech to counter it. Comstar could well have suggested local leaders went nuts and took out everything they could reach including jumpships in the area.
And the games concepts is based on not having a huge supply of vessels to send into battle. Hence lance on lance being more common then RCT on RCT. It allows for less people being needed to actually play.
You missed more then a few facts with the shield concept. First off is the level in which the shield ends. Simple tunnel under ground level, IE where the shield ends, and plant the nuke there. So that didn't stop the nuke. And there has not been any canon information on weither the shield will stop naval weapons. As the shield needs supports to hold up the netting, those supports would be outside of the shielding effects. Take them out, and you lose the netting.
Mechs are not Robotech mecha. They are not meant to be able to do hand stands and cartwheels. You can not put your foot into the head of a mech that is standing on the same level as you are. And with this, you don't see where the problem is being able to launch explosives by the ton on a mech. Might as well allow naval missiles to be shot out by a mech. It would have a better chance to hit, then a thrown weapon.
Maybe Long Tom shells should be used. But then why bother with ground combat at all? Just drop them from high level or even orbit. Only need infantry to go thru the rubble to see what you got.
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Requiem
09/07/21 06:09 AM
1.158.137.81
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Coming up with all the lostech ideas, as well as showing the locations of the lost League bases would have had so many attempts to capture, kill, black mail and other things on the Dragoons, it wouldn't be funny.
Really, sorry but this isn’t even plausible – 22 October 3015
What happened to Duke Anton Marik when he crossed the Dragoons?
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How could they even begin to infiltrate the houses if no one could trust them.
How? They are bringing prosperity and technology back to the Inner Sphere – they are now on the same political level as some of the major corporations within the IS – and as such this brings with it massive political clout.
Multitasking – 3020 onwards
They are no longer required to learn how any House Military operates, as from this point forward they will no longer be communicating with the Clan Home Worlds (As per their former Khan’s instructions)
Their instructions are to assist with the Inner Spheres readiness – and this can be seen with the Ryuken (“Dragon’s Sword”) when they assisted with their training and development.
The coverup of technology, however, can be seen as contrary to their instructions regarding assisting the inner sphere.
Then the question is, what did they do from this point forward to prepare the Inner Sphere … as the evidence suggests absolutely nothing substantial, and totally in contrast to their orders.
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The Helm Core was not given to a single house.
And how many corporations, including military, are multi-House? business involves opening your target market up to as wide a market as possible, to generate the largest profit possible. As it is a Company it is also a separate legal entity unto itself – just like every other company thus they are not confined to operating within one House – as if this was the case then how is inter House trade supposed to exist?
Also, they received the planet Outreach in 3030 – and they received their instructions in 3020 thus giving them 10 years to establish their corporate business arm of Dragoons Pty Ltd throughout the IS. And as at 3020 they are within the LC this is the perfect House to start their business empire with.
As for ComStar – again they are now battling them just the same as they are every other corporation within the Inner Sphere when it comes to the advancement of technology.
However, Dragoons Pty Ltd comes with a very serious corporate security arm … Wolfs Dragoons Mercenary Unit!
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when they first arrived
3005. So, how does this relate to 3020 onwards?
As during that 15 years since their arrival they have been with FS, CC and FWL … and with each house they have performed stellar service … their reputation as an elite unit is established.
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That level of tech would mean the end of the DC.
Sorry but I find this hypothesis in error – careful proliferation of technology throughout the Inner Sphere (such as through shadow corporations or even allowing corporate spies access to advanced information on purpose) can easily maintain the balance of power.
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To build the Hoover dam
Basic economics theory that can be applied to the Inner Sphere – each world manufactures a piece of the ship – their economies GDP increases – their unemployment decreases …
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As stated, I don't remember anyone that buys debt to pay for such things in the game.
This is because anything to do with advanced economics has been excluded from the game.
IRL – debt is purchased all the time https://www.privatedebtinvestor.com/the-rise-of-debt-for-control/
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And with that, did the U.S. have to watch out for attacks on their lands? I don't recall pirates, mercs, and other entities attacking the U.S. during that phase.
Still did not answer the question ….
So if Nobutake Kondo’s invasion fleet attacked Pearl Harbour through a land invasion (rather than using aircraft carriers) does this mean that the US Pilots on Pearl are only allowed to attack the landing ships and the infantry as they wade ashore – since Kondo’s warships are not firing their guns, they are just sitting off Hawaii, they should now be designated as non-combatants? As this is what is being discussed here … ANS is?
A. they would be designated as hostile and would be attacked as well
B. they should be designated as non-combatants and ignored
C. other
And yes Nobutake Kondo’s invasion fleet was there during Midway …. So what if we did transpose this situation to - rather an attack by air upon Pearl there was actually an invasion by land upon Hawaii – what happens next ?
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Nondi commanded the LC portion military
Look at the Chain of Command –During the Clan Invasion Nondi was in charge of one geographical area – HOWEVER she did have three superiors – Both First Price, Archon and Marshal of the Armies Morgan Hasek Davion. Thus putting her in the third tier of command below that of these people, thus she can be ordered by Morgan to implement his plans over that of her own – She would not rise to second tier command level until after the LA was formed many years later …
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why would Morgan go with Victor if he was in charge of the AFFC to Huntress?
Because he is the most experienced General to undertake Operation Serpent – as he is now commanding the new SLDF invasion fleet.
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That would mean both the commanders were out of touch for 6 months at least.
Actually well over a year – they Departed 1 May 3059 and arrived back into the IS in March 3061 when they arrived on Luthien.
As for Victor he went with the second wave – 18 July 3060 returning March 61 (and at this point you realize that there is a massive timing issue problem as if Victor departed in July he cannot be back in the IS until August 61 at the earliest)
So how does this actually affect the initial invasion at all? – Do I need to get my time machine out of storage again? (satire)
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If social generals were removed from the LC, then their replacements were even worse. And the fact that regional commanders were politicians means they could not be gotten rid of.
Fallacious categorical syllogism
All cats have four legs
My dog has four legs
Therefore, my dog is a cat
This is why there is a stringent promotion system based upon the FS competence system and not how much money you have, or your title as to purchasing a rank / acquiring a rank due to your birth.
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Except the bs of the assassin that killed Melisa and Omi, assassins do not get the chance to perform more then once.
Really? The best of the best would be very difficult to stop, not once but on multiple occasions, … this is why they are they best of the best!
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Besides Turtle Bay, when was the next time a warship actually fired on a world?
As stated many times this is the wrong question!
The question is how can the Inner Sphere Know that this is the last time?
As stated many times the Ouija board and hunting dog available to the Inner Sphere are providing inconclusive results (satire)
They threatened for a second time on Zoetermeer
Can you really trust the clans when you do not even know their intentions?
Sorry, but if you are in command of House your primary duty is to safeguard its people and its worlds – they have used it once and threatened with a second strike … you cannot allow a third time …. The only rational course of action is the destruction of the warships … and again given that there is only one weapon system available the IS’s response can only be – Thermonuclear.
As stated many times there is absolutely no getting around this – the clans pulled a warship and in response the IS pulled Nukes … you want to stop this? then find a means after this has started - as soon as the Clans use a warship this event has now taken on a life of its own, and there is absolutely no way of stopping it …. The ball is in the Clan’s Court!
Again we should not excuse pitiful writing – the canon story is woefully pathetic for this situation and should not be allowed to continue, in my opinion.
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So how many aerofighters were there to strike at the warships when they first appeared?
Do I really have to answer this, again!, when there are who knows how many Vengeance Carriers within the IS – and this was gone over to death in another forum which categorically demonstrated that there are enough fighters to go down Mallorie’s Big Wing Scenario once more.
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TPTB did come up with a counter to the warships. It was not instantaneous.
And what happens between the time of the invasion and the arrival of IS warships if the Clans decide to use them on every capitol world … this is a real possibility when you consider head-hunter strikes … there is absolutely no evidence to suggest circa 3050 that they would not consider this tactic … as many within the IS would consider such a tactic as legitimate, if they had warships and their enemy didn’t.
So who’s to say what the Clans would not go down this path? This is a real threat!
So there is but one solution – take out the warships – again, due to a security issues – and given there is only one weapon available ………
Again letting the canon story off the hook just because it is pitiful is not an answer.
As for Towne – they did have the 5th Galedon Aerospace Wing … at the minimum.
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Simple tunnel under ground level,
Who is to say that it isn’t spherical in nature then? Writers can always through in something to make the day go worse if necessary for the plot …
And again any shield tech would be House Rules – Cannon would have absolutely nothing to do with it …
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Mechs are not Robotech mecha. They are not meant to be able to do hand stands and cartwheels.
Agree, they can’t do handstands and cartwheels – however they can pick up, they can carry, and they can throw, and they should be able to use a rifle / change a magazine clip … especially when you look at the old Wolverine Mech Images and the AC it carried …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Wolverine_(BattleMech) – have a look at the bottom of the page at the Original Unseen WVR-6R Wolverine from TRO: 3025 – that is most definitely an external clip carried in the other hand for the AC ….
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You can not put your foot into the head of a mech that is standing on the same level as you are.
Can you please remind me how Natasha Kerensky died – Didn’t Joanna use her Mech’s Jump jets to burn her cockpit to ashes?
And then there is Death from Above – or has this been removed from the game?
Sorry but I do not see the problem with Mechs throwing explosives around …
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But then why bother with ground combat at all?
Correct – if you have the high ground, such as a warship, why bother …. Just bomb the entire area to rubble and send in the infantry …
So unless there is something to stop the warship all Ground forces are now obsolete – except for garrison duty … we will always need someone to keep the locals in line …
But for all the important battles from now on it is Navy all the way! And Orbital bombardment … (satire – maybe?)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (09/07/21 07:50 AM)
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ghostrider
09/07/21 01:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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Very plausible. 5 regiments verse the entire IS. The fact that Janus decided to not only let the Dragoons live, but hire them as well is what saved the Dragoons. Anton was the crazed leader of a dying rebellion. You love numbers, so do the math.
So you missed the point that the Dragoons had to learn how the DC operates from a friendly stance in order to best train them against the clans. Even though they were ordered not to send that information to the clans, they still needed to know what made the DCMS tick. As it was, their concept of bushido put them at a disadvantage against the clans. One on one, the clans were superior in tech and skills for the most part. Clan warriors were known for throwing insults at their opponent no matter who they were. The loss of face would have the DCMS charging into combat to take out the tauter. So no. The Dragoons didn't need to know how to prevent this from happening.
The response given to the Helm Core has nothing to do with the Helm Core.
Now read the actual story. The Dragoons were in a crunch because of a lack of funds. They were hurt badly during the 4th war, and couldn't even defend Outreach for a while. Hence the reason the Black Widow Battalion was made and sent out to make some money. So for a while, there was no money to even attempt to build factories. And having the Dragoons trying to defend Outreach while most of their units were off on contracts means they were not the strong. Having huge factories pumping out tech beyond SL would have cause their demise. Especially House Liao would have went after them. Take out the jumpships before the Dragoons showed up with warships. Then moving their forces back to defend the world would have been greatly reduced.
I want to say they even touched this in one of the books. I don't remember which one at the moment.
Also comes a major problem that Outreach became a mercenary's hiring place. How many of them would take a contract to hit the Dragoons and gain advanced tech? How many would raid them without a contract? So no. Building massive factories when they just got Outreach would have been their death call.
Later on, then it would have made more sense. They did help Blackwell start making the Marauder II. No advanced tech in it.
This is also not saying the Dragoons didn't invest or start companies that didn't tie back to them after they started making some more money. And this also doesn't stop them from helping decode the Helm Core. Just nothing said about it.
How? The Dragoons are too prominent
Were is the time frame in that response? The context was for the Dragoons to start releasing clan tech as well as showing where the SL bases were at.
Again, read the context of what is written. The statement dealt with the Dragoons releasing the higher tech to house Davion. So the DC would fall if the FS was the only one to have the tech.
Each world produces a piece of the ship, yet no transports to move them. Hmmm.. Why does this sound foolish? Lots of high priced equipment just sitting around on worlds in warehouses, and the local defenders are at their lowest numbers with no way to send more. This isn't like sending forces from another state a few hundred miles away. Do you even consider things before responding? This almost seems like you don't and are looking for someone else to come up with the facts that you miss.
And again the argument of canon being wrong because they don't have non canon items in the game. So the statement of deficit spending in the game stands. There is no one that buys up that debt to let the government spend more money then they get in.
As a side note, the FS has defaulted on payments to others, such as the Dragoons after the 4th war. It was stated that the Dragoons would still be in a money crunch had Hanse paid everything he promised.
Warships and the attack on Pearl Harbor is apples and oranges. Warships require aerofighters to reach. As stated in the response, the limited amount stationed on most worlds would not have even reached the warships, as they were busy engaging the dropships and fighters the clans were using to land those troops. The fact that the aircraft and sea warships needed to be dealt with before you could even land is an entirely different subject.
It wasn't that they didn't want to engage the clan warship, it is the fact that the couldn't.
Maybe having a Star Killer laser on world would have changed this fact.
So you believe the General Estates as well as the Sky region would simply allow Davion commanders to come in and take over LC region units? Maybe putting the blame on Melissa as she did NOT demand the FS commanders to take over. This would be at the beginning. You know, when they thought it was just a pirate gang that found an SL stash. The peace time had things coming in a bit differently, but the local LC commanders were still in charge. They all reported to whom? Nondi. And with Nondi being a fanatical LC supporter, refused to allow the FS commanders to come in and show her up.
The FS sent troops, yet they were restricted by LC commanders. Hmmm...
So the FC sent out their two top commanders to deal with Taskforce Serpent? How stupid it that? Wouldn't Morgan stay in the FC to counter any attacks, as the IS wasn't sure the clans would honor the truce? And they were sending strike against those worlds above the truce line.
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ghostrider
09/07/21 02:41 PM
45.51.181.83
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Actual facts stand. The social generals were supposed to be removed, yet their replacements seemed to be worse. As they were promoted from LC staff, this would suggest that the LC portion ignored most of the FS promotion systems.
Given the fact that planetary leaders are politically appointed, means they are politicians with ties to the General Estates or other powerful people. Since they do get involved with troops on their world or in their regions, that means they are social leaders, not military ones. The cat and dog analogy is just trying to distract that theses facts are still that. Facts. The fact that the books even stated the LC commanders did not use the FS RCTs to great effect as they reverted back to the old ways.
How is asking how many times has a warship fired on a world the wrong question? This is a very valid question.
All wars have the risk of someone using WMD in the future. Yet how many were used during and after the 3rd war? There is nothing in the game that states your primary objective in invading a world is to take out the stockpiles of those weapons first. They are a threat, but not the primary when they aren't being used.
Funny thing here. TPTB wrote the story and did so in a way that warships were NOT the main threat of the invasion. The concept of the Smoke Jaguars used it once, and the Jade Falcons threatened to use it, yet you know the DC has used poison and nukes in the past and have used poison more recently, as well as been brutal to populations on worlds they take, including those in the 3039 war, would mean you would be cheering the Turtle Bay incident as well as offering to help remove the DC. The Bears and Wolves never used the warships to bombard. In every combat since WWII, the U.S. has had nukes as well as Russia and others. Yet how many of them have been used in any fight since then? By your definition, Japan should never trust the U.S. after WWII. They were the ONLY ones that got hit by one.
The scenarios of a lot of things will keep continuing until you get it out of your head that your numbers do not match canon, so arguing canon has to do this or that to satisfy you is absolutely wrong. The clans invasion was NOT the priority when they first hit. About wave 3, it was realized they were a greater threat then it was thought. The use of a warship sent the IS into researching how to negate them. Given the limited facilities the IS had to make dropships and jumpships, they needed them to produce normal things so experimenting with them was out of the question. Naval grade weapons were not mass produced and wasn't deployed around capital worlds, which would have been the FIRST thing to have even been done.
Following the game rules, naval grade weapons were not put on dropships, so the idea of the PT HAVING to be used couldn't happen in canon.
And still I haven't seen the complaint from you that the CC should have had the forces to repel the FS invasion of their lands. The difference is the FC had more time to develop ways to counter the clans. The CC didn't.
If not for the lack of jumpships, the FS probably would have removed the CC from the game. The economy was why the FS decided to stop. Something the game does not deal with but is a very realistic concept for a story line.
And the question still stands. How many aerofighters were there when the clans invaded? How many were stationed on the worlds hit? The game has been one to have limited fighters stationed on worlds, and have mobile units to deal with things like defending major worlds as well as assaults. Much like mech forces, yet fighters seem to be even more rare. So where do you concentrate them at? Some world on the periphery that might have some pirates hit, which normally don't have fighters with them? Or near areas like Hesperus?
This answers why the IS did not just sent everything to the clan front.
And what happens between the time of the invasion and the arrival of IS warships if the Clans decide to use them on every capitol world … this is a real possibility when you consider head-hunter strikes … there is absolutely no evidence to suggest circa 3050 that they would not consider this tactic
This is your own response. Given the IS loved to divert attention away from real attacks, the invaders could well have had strike forces on the way to other worlds not in the invasion corridors. So stripping all forces from worlds like Luthien would have left the DC without leadership had they done that. This is true even during the initial invasion.
And when did the defenders of Towne have a DC aero force defending them? Their defending fighters were 6 fighters. So how many fighters were stationed on world around the IS? Not many.
The question was asked if the netting went underground as well, but not answered. There is a major reason with it could not be a complete sphere. The fact that the city would settle on the netting would mean it would be crushed by the weight of the city. And this is leaving out the question of if the netting would be shorted out with constant contact with the ground. The supports for the netting would have to be major, as the weight of the city would be on them, even if you used them to prevent ground contact. They are still vulnerable to damage.
And again. How do you get supplies in and out of the city?
There is one thing that doesn't make sense. If the system prevents lasers from going thru, wouldn't it stop normal light as well?
One last question for the system. Does it stop all items from passing, like air? If so, the city will sufficate if left on too long. So air purifiers on a large scale would be needed. The arena only needed it to stop shots from hitting the spectators. So it formed a dome. The battle area was open for air flow from other directions. A sphere would prevent this.
Yes. Look at the Wolverine. It is a picture of a robotech unit. The AC would not work in Battletech unless the ammo reloads were part of the weapon itself. If you had the precise control that you want for thrown things accurately, then you should be able to target a specific point on an enemy mech. Such as no shot would strike anywhere but the head. See the issue here?
Can you read the statement? You can not put your foot into the head of a mech that is standing on the same level as you are.
DFA is not both mechs standing on the same level. As for the use of a jump jet to burn into a mech standing above the unit, this is yet another writer making things up. TPTB did NOTHING to support or deny such an event can happen. And as much as you think 'gotcha' you are not putting your foot into the head, but using the thrust from the jets to reach up and hit the mech head. Different story completely.
Go play Battlestar Galactica or some other space game. Battletech is not space combat. It is focused for ground combat. Trying to make it as such means nothing is close to canon, and others wanting to play Battletech will not even touch your game.
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Requiem
09/07/21 05:20 PM
1.158.137.81
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Very plausible. 5 regiments verse the entire IS.
Why would the entire IS target the Dragoons circa 3015?
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So you missed the point that the Dragoons had to learn how the DC operates from a friendly stance in order to best train them against the clans.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ryuken
“In 3023 Takashi Kurita hired Wolf's Dragoons to train a regiment in their tactics and tactical doctrines. The Ryuken regiment trained with and fought alongside Wolf's Dragoons, learning how to fight like the Wolf's Dragoon's. The Ryuken succeeded beyond expectations, causing Takashi Kurita to order the regiment broken into companies and to train and expand into their own regiments.”
As for the Clan Invasion – it was decided they were best left out of any Clan entanglements, which makes absolute sense (satire) - a force designed by the Dragoons (hopefully to fight the Clans) and yet were never allowed to during the invasion …
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The Dragoons were in a crunch because of a lack of funds. They were hurt badly during the 4th war, and couldn't even defend Outreach for a while.
4th Succession War - Reducing Wolf's Dragoons from more than five regiments to a single provisional regiment of mixed troops.
Though the question of a lack of funds is dubious …
3032 – “They opened the Mercenary Hiring Hall – Offered repair, maintenance and training services – Within a few years Outreach rivaled, and eventually surpassed, legendary Galatea which had previously been known as the "Mercenary Star".”
“The Dragoons had previously invested in several firms, most notably Blackwell Industries (originally a minor supplier of spare parts), and with their help, they reactivated the Star League facilities on Outreach and before long used them to produce BattleMechs of their own. This also enabled them to provide commercial maintenance and repair services on Outreach as well as trade in spare parts.”
How could they establish their own BattleMech manufacturing facility if they didn’t have the funds?
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How many of them would take a contract to hit the Dragoons and gain advanced tech?
How – if they became the centre of new technological development they will be guarded. Also considering their extensive BattleMech manufacturing facilities did this invite the destruction predicted? Ans. No
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How? The Dragoons are too prominent
Time frame – ever since they arrived
Releasing Clan Tech – could have started 3020 onwards, as soon as the order was given to assist the IS in their preparations. As noted above they have invested in several firms – to which they could have provided advanced tech.
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Again, read the context of what is written. The statement dealt with the Dragoons releasing the higher tech to house Davion. So the DC would fall if the FS was the only one to have the tech.
Sorry but I disagree – there are innumerable ways to ensure the dissemination of technology throughout the entire IS at the same time.
They even could have come clean with both the FC and DC at this time and let them know what was coming …
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Each world produces a piece of the ship, yet no transports to move them. Hmmm.. Why does this sound foolish?
Why do you keep asserting there is never ever any transport for anything? If this is the case then how does any minor mercenary unit ever find the transport to undertake a raid? Hmmm..
Also as there has never ever been anything printed as to the exact numbers as to who owns them and where they are located as well as the numbers permanently attached to the military the idea that anyone can simply say there are never any available becomes an impossible statement to verify.
I can say there are and you can say they are absent – and yet neither of us have the facts to prove with any veracity – there is absolutely no way it can be proven by anyone as there are no hard facts!
So again …. If I am the writer I am going so they are available …
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So the statement of deficit spending in the game stands. There is no one that buys up that debt to let the government spend more money then they get in.
If this is how you want your universe to be then OK.
In mine, however, this will not be a problem.
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the FS has defaulted on payments to others,
Can you provide the book and page no for this?
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Warships and the attack on Pearl Harbor is apples and oranges.
No sorry it is not – it is a very good analogy for the Clan Invasion and the use of Warships.
Ans Please.
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the limited amount stationed on most worlds would not have even reached the warships, as they were busy engaging the dropships and fighters the clans were using to land those troops.
As proven in the forum regarding the aerospace fighter numbers it was proven that YES there are enough available fighters to go after a warship – once in atmosphere all Dropships and Mechs on the ground are now under the purview of conventional fighters to which it was clearly stated that they were in vast numbers.
Also why would any commander designate incoming dropships the primary target when there is a warship behind them?
This is now entering the realm of the ludicrous – as stated many times any warship within any combat zone must be designated as the primary target! There is absolutely no other way, this is the only plausible scenario!
Wave 1 Jade Falcons for example 2nd New Ivaarsen Chasseurs – Three Air Wings – 60 Fighters – one of which specializes in anti dropship ordinance.
And as stated in the house books all RCTs standard aerospace force is two Air Wings.
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The fact that the aircraft and sea warships needed to be dealt with before you could even land is an entirely different subject.
Since when?
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So you believe the General Estates as well as the Sky region would simply allow Davion commanders to come in and take over LC region units?
It is not what I believe, it is Canon! https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Marshal_of_the_Armies
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They all reported to whom? Nondi
And as per canon she reported to the Marshal of the Armies
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So the FC sent out their two top commanders to deal with Taskforce Serpent? How stupid it that?
Note – as per Taskforce Serpent timeline the FC no longer exists it is the LA and the FS
Thus, it is the FS sending one top commander and Victor who should have known better.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/07/21 09:13 PM
45.51.181.83
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Are you bothering to read what is going on? The entire IS would hunt the Dragoons if they had started releasing even SL era weapons and/or showing people where SL bases are at.
And the fact that the Dragoons still had to work inside the DC in order to understand how they operated is still fact. The Ryuken did NOT follow standard DCMS procedures. There is the fact that they were ignored during the 4th war. So you have a very complex issue with this. The fact that the DCMS were against this training also says a lot.
And wait. The Dragoons supposedly did NOTHING to help the IS prepare for the clans.
First it was 2 years after the war, and the Black Widows were put out to start making money.
Second, it takes far less funds to restart a factory then build one from scratch. The Dragoons had great techs, as some of them were clan trained, that still was with them.
Your scenario was that the Dragoons would start building clan tech just after the 4th war. Back when they had the provisional regiment. The houses would decide to take that tech for themselves. How well guarded would the factories be when several RCTs dropped on the world and had local merc support to take the factories from at least 3 different nations?
Every firm that started producing clan tech would be seized by the nation they were in, for several reasons, the least of which would be so the seizing house could gain that tech for itself and produce it, while trying to deny the other houses that tech. This may well have cause nukes to be used. Even Comstar would get involved as it was beyond their SL tech superiority over the houses.
Without a home world, and the Warships no where to be found, the spaceborne Dragoons would be destroyed in space.
You disagree that if the Dragoons gave the tech to house Davion, the DC would not have fallen? Are you even bothering to read the posts? Go back and reread them as you respond from now on. There is nothing in that statement saying the other houses got the tech. So ONLY Davion got it, which would mean the DC would fall, and given the initial concept of the Dragoons working with Davion when they first got it, that means the FC would not have been formed as it would not be necessary for Hanse to even bother with it.
The game shows a lack of transportation during the 4th war. It said it directly. Merc normally have their employer supply transportation, which is when mercs tended to get left in bad situations. They were able to hire some, but this is not during the 4th war. The few that had jumpships were unaffected by this problem. Why do you continue to argue canon is wrong when you have no clue on what was available?
This statement makes you look very foolish as you are NOT the writer of canon: So again …. If I am the writer I am going so they are available …
The fact that you continue to use your own numbers saying canon should have done things is the basis of the issue.
Why don't you get off your butt and read the actual books. Several house units mutinied because of a lack of payment. Does that sound like defaulting on payments? That is a big reason why a lot of house units turned merc or pirate. You claim to research everything, yet seem to miss out on very important items such as this. Selective memory loss perhaps?
Where is it it proven that the number of Aerofighters on garrison duty was enough to go after warships? It was proven that they DIDN'T have the numbers as most worlds did not have sufficient numbers to hold off raids, and that is normally a few dropships. Not a single example was shown that the worlds that were hit had enough fighters to take out the dropships much less attack the warships.
How do you know there was a warship in system? I forgot you have fortune tellers that could relay that information. I can tell you why this is false as the clans did NOT bring enough warships with them to escort all the attacks in a single wave. So again, you are putting in numbers that aren't there.
Your fighters are there to try and remove the dropships from landing their forces, so the ground units don't have as much to deal with, or prevent raids as they tend to be scattered around a world. Learn the game before trying to say it is wrong.
So you are going to land forces on an island when there are sea warships and aircraft guarding it? And you say landing on German shores couldn't be done.
The FS did not drop the FC concept. And when Victor got back, Katherine had basically reinstated that.
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ghostrider
09/07/21 09:21 PM
45.51.181.83
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Where does it say the 2nd New Ivaarsen Chasseurs had the aerofighters?
As a full galaxy hit the world, having that many fighters would have meant very heavy losses for the Jade Falcons as their dropships would have gotten torn up. So the number of fighters is suspect.
There is one out here, as the Falcons had ECM going on at full, which would also mean the warships would not be detected.
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Requiem
09/08/21 07:48 AM
1.158.137.81
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The entire IS would hunt the Dragoons if they had started releasing even SL era weapons and/or showing people where SL bases are at.
And what happened when they did manufacture SL era weapons or when an individual discovered a SL base – did the IS go mad and try and destroy them?
The answer is no they didn’t. So there is absolutely no evidence they would in the future.
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The fact that the DCMS were against this training also says a lot.
What this demonstrates is a complete and utterly poor story, that has more holes in than Swiss cheese …
Who ordered the formation of the Ryuken and what orders were given at its establishment as to its style of fighting?
This is all you need to know ….
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The Dragoons supposedly did NOTHING to help the IS prepare for the clans.
In the grand scheme of things how many activities did the Dragoons do to prepare the IS for the coming of the Clans?
Ever considered making a list?
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It takes far less funds to restart a factory then build one from scratch
Ever considered how much this would be? The last person who tried had to sell half the company to the State to acquire enough funds to get it done ….
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the Dragoons would start building clan tech just after the 4th war.
And absolutely none of it would be coming out of Outreach as all the products are coming out of existing factories scattered throughout the IS as they have license agreements with these corporations to manufacture Dragoon Tech.
So how well guarded are these factories scattered throughout the IS?
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Every firm that started producing clan tech would be seized by the nation they were in
Did this ever occur when Clan Tech came out in the future? Ans - No it didn’t … so why now?
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There is nothing in that statement saying the other houses got the tech.
My post 09/07/21 06:09AM – “And how many corporations, including military, are multi-House? business involves opening your target market up to as wide a market as possible, to generate the largest profit possible. As it is a Company it is also a separate legal entity unto itself – just like every other company thus they are not confined to operating within one House – as if this was the case then how is inter House trade supposed to exist?”
Not confined to operating in one house!
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The game shows a lack of transportation during the 4th war.
This is because it was stated that virtually every Jump-ship was used for the war effort … This was during the 4th Succession war – this does in no way represent what would be available circa 3050!
This statement si built from the premise that no real additional Jumpships were manufactured and that the FC sere unable to call in all the jumpships again for the war with the clans … which is a complete fallacy as wen you compare the two wars side by side.
So one again there is an abundance of Jumpships available for the war against the clans.
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Several house units mutinied because of a lack of payment. Does that sound like defaulting on payments?
Please provide a list of Unit names and dates when they mutinied …..
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Not a single example was shown that the worlds that were hit had enough fighters to take out the dropships much less attack the warships.
Pitiful writing cannot be given as an excuse.
How many were with Tyra Miraborg? 24 aerospace fighters https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Tyra_Miraborg
So what would have happened if she had a nuke and detonated as she went through the bridge?
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How do you know there was a warship in system?
Jade Falcon - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion_corridor_-_Clan_Jade_Falcon
the element of surprise in these opening attacks was further compounded by the Clans' general technological superiority, allowing their WarShips to evade detection until they were already in orbit of the planet
You look up at the sky and you can see there a warship in orbit.
Also wouldn’t there be satellites to track Dropships arrival / departure ?
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I can tell you why this is false as the clans did NOT bring enough warships with them to escort all the attacks in a single wave.
Jade Falcons – 20
Nova Cats – 14 etc .
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Your fighters are there to try and remove the dropships from landing their forces
And once in atmosphere conventional fighters can’t do this ?
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So you are going to land forces on an island when there are sea warships and aircraft guarding it?
Still not answering the question …
So if Nobutake Kondo’s invasion fleet attacked Pearl Harbour through a land invasion (rather than using aircraft carriers) does this mean that the US Pilots on Pearl are only allowed to attack the landing ships and the infantry as they wade ashore – since Kondo’s warships are not firing their guns, they are just sitting off Hawaii, they should now be designated as non-combatants? As this is what is being discussed here … ANS is?
A. they would be designated as hostile and would be attacked as well
B. they should be designated as non-combatants and ignored
C. other
And yes Nobutake Kondo’s invasion fleet was there during Midway …. So what if we did transpose this situation to - rather an attack by air upon Pearl there was actually an invasion by land upon Hawaii – what happens next ?
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And you say landing on German shores couldn't be done.
What reference beach was this to and what era?
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The FS did not drop the FC concept.
What happened when the FC was broken in two by Victor’s stupid decision to place a double into the game and Katherine used this to take control of the LA.
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Where does it say the 2nd New Ivaarsen Chasseurs had the aerofighters?
House Federated Suns
Field Manual Federated Suns
Both have the 1st - 3 wings and 2nd a single wing
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/08/21 12:36 PM
45.51.181.83
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Let's see. Making SL era weapons when everyone else started to. Not suspicious.
Someone finding an SL base, and not being directed to it by the Dragoons. Not suspicious.
Having clan tech made when no one was even able to research building SL tech. Very suspicious.
Having even 5 SL bases being found at the direction of the Dragoons. Very suspicious.
Comprehension seems to be failing a lot. Reading between the lines isn't necessary as the fact not given make up the major parts of such actions.
The DCMS resisting the training the Dragoons were giving, was following their Bushido code. The Dragoons, though skilled warriors, were barbarians in the eyes of the Bushido driven DCMS, especially with your demand of strict adherence of it. First the Dragoons were mercs. This falls below enemy house units. Then to retreat instead of standing and delivering, with lots of quick strikes instead of just duking it out.
You don't know what was done and not written about. So make a list and I know it is inaccurate. Facts seem to be lacking a lot of the time when convenient. History shows this.
Gotta love this: Ever considered how much this would be? The last person who tried had to sell half the company to the State to acquire enough funds to get it done ….
And you suggest the Dragoons had the funds to start several factories to make clan tech, right after they 4th war ended. Where did they get the money?
Now how would the Dragoons protect those factories you want spread out across the IS if they were not on Outreach? Funny that it comes from someone that demands all assets of a nation be in one large clump. The product is what is the issue. Having standard ammunition and normal weapons would not draw much attention. But the SL core was being decoded, SL tech would have. And it would have had the houses seizing those factories. In order to deter this, the Dragoons would have to step up and claim those factories. Hmmm. Deductive logic. Maybe comprehensive reasoning.
Use that comprehensive reasoning. Clan tech being made in the future AFTER it showed up in the enemy's hands is far different then having a whole line of it show up when SL tech wasn't available.
Good. Now read the post where it says only Davion got the tech, and house Kurita would fall because of it. OH? The parameters of that statement was made and someone ignored it in order to post something trying to argue it without the facts? That seems to happen a lot anymore with you responses to things posted.
Yeah. I mean the fact they were moving far more units towards the front, and had far more factories that needed materials and such, wouldn't counteract the maybe 3 dozen new jumpships that were available. Not sure how many were lost in the 3039 war. As well as any conflicts in between, like the Skye rebellions had destroyed a few. So yeah. Same scenario.
Maybe you should throw out your numbers and deal with the canon story when saying canon is wrong. Pitiful writing that they have made it clear that the IS did NOT have the numbers to properly defend all their worlds and have shown planets did not have huge amounts of fighters standing guard over them. So when an enemy hit from an unexpected direction, they could not use those non existent fighters to wipe out warships, or even stop the large scale invasions.
But then magic wands don't exist in the game. You can not simply wave one to create an Aerofighter regiment where none existed.
Imagine that the IS did have the resources to fight the clans. What good would that have been in order to create conflict? OH yeah. It wouldn't. It would be nothing more then a large raid. Nothing to threaten the IS and make some money. But this would also mean the FC wasn't damaged. That is the end result desired. The FC to remove the others and rule the IS.
You might as well rewrite the 3039 war. Have the FC destroy the DC, and then they would have the forces to destroy the clans without much effort. Just like removing the clans by having the SLDF never leaving.
You don't even know combat orders. The aerofighters are to fight the dropships coming in. Aircraft do not last long against a dropship, much less a few of them. And that is IF there are aircraft on the world. As the Warship is something new to the scene, the fighters would deal with the immediate threat of land forces being brought in, then worrying about the unknown.
What always happens when you don't remove a defenders equipment used to defend with? Not sure why this even needs to be said. Your sea ships would probably not have even reached the lands to unload troops. And given the example. you are suggesting the Warships should have opened fire the moment they could and just destroyed the world that was meant to be taken with as little damage as possible. This is not how the story goes, and with this, it would not change the context of the invasion. The IS would NOT have warships to start, nor would they have started using nukes until the second wave or past. And this would also only be one clan, probably the Smoke Jaguars, so the FC would still be invaded. The rest of the clans would have fallen on the Jaguars for violating their own traditions.
WWII. Instead of hitting Normandy, they just landed in Germany, and removed a lot of fighting. The allies had the numbers and tech.
Still not getting the story straight to even say it is wrong I see. Victor did NOT start operation Gemini. He just allowed it to continue. And this is very much what even Thomas would have done if it had been the FWL being invaded. Do what is deemed necessary to keep your realm safe.
And Victor did NOT break the FC in two. Katherine did so by turning traitor to the entire FC. She choose power over keeping the FC in one piece. Had she held firm with Victor, the FWL may well have been reduced significantly in size and power, as the FC's counter assault would have taken worlds from both the FWL and CC.
Ok. I don't have the field manuals. Nothing is said in the wiki about what the Chasseurs had for aerofighters. It still means the Falcons should have lost dropships in the invasion. Destroy the enemy before they can land troops is the best way to deal with invaders. Part of why the game doesn't have strong defenses against invasion.
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Requiem
09/08/21 06:17 PM
1.158.137.81
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Making SL era weapons when everyone else started to. Not suspicious.
If everyone is manufacturing SL era weapons at the same time what is the issue?
Research and development establish new technological wonders all the time, this is not suspicious at all – or is there a conspiracy regarding Russia with their new Hypersonic Missile Technology? (satire)
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Having clan tech made when no one was even able to research building SL tech. Very suspicious.
How would anyone know? – all corporations retain a veil of secrecy regarding their research and development – is everyone going to consider conspiracy theories when the flip phone was phased out for the smart phone?
So , again this not very suspicious at all.
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Having even 5 SL bases being found at the direction of the Dragoons. Very suspicious.
Only if it can be linked back to the Dragoons – otherwise no … they happen all the time in the IS … Halstead Station – the library found in 3014, Helm Memory Core, Loxley – 34 Star League era ‘Mech Factory ….
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The DCMS resisting the training the Dragoons were giving, was following their Bushido code.
Actually the reverse in this case – Ryuken “the Ryuken represent some of the most devoted adherents to methods of warfare practiced in the modern DCMS”
Canon is quite clear on the fact their training by the Dragoons was highly successful.
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You don't know what was done and not written about. So make a list and I know it is inaccurate.
Preconception?
Circa 3050 – if the Dragoons were active in preparing the IS for war with the Clans then … Where is the Inner Sphere Omni? … Where is the Inner Sphere power armour? …
Here is the Inner Sphere Warship program?
Or for that matter why didn’t they institute a new training program that all of the academies throughout the Inner sphere could adopt so as to improve graduates throughout the IS at a minimum?
Time to face the facts that the Dragoons did absolutely nothing of any value in order to prepare the IS for the Clan Invasion. Thus, as a consequence, all of the leaders of the IS should have brought them to task over this and they should have been forced to make amends if their desire was to remain with the Inner Sphere, an yet nothing occurred … again a very pitiful plot development.
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And you suggest the Dragoons had the funds to start several factories to make clan tech, right after they 4th war ended. Where did they get the money?
And as stated above – patents for a myriad of star league era / clan era equipment (military and civilian) that they allowed corporations throughout the Inner Sphere manufacture for a set royalty figure together with an NDA.
Then there is the stock on these companies when they announce their new technology …. up and up ….
This is a very easy thing to do when you have inside information as to which way the market is going to move …
As stated above this is not a problem, you just need a very creative accountancy / Brokerage firms scattered throughout the IS.
It is easily achievable!
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how would the Dragoons protect those factories you want spread out across the IS if they were not on Outreach?
How are they protected currently – either their House Lord assigns them with Regular forces or they hire mercenaries … the normal proceedings … you do not want to create waves, this all about the money!
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In order to deter this, the Dragoons would have to step up and claim those factories. Hmmm.
Just because factories changed side and production went from one house to another is irrelevant – the share registry, contracts and the royalties payments remained the same, to the same people – otherwise why would people like Uncle Chandy invest in corporations not of his own house? Financial Chaos!
It is all good – no matter which state claimed the factory the money kept on flowing …
“Deductive logic. Maybe comprehensive reasoning.”
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Clan tech being made in the future AFTER it showed up in the enemy's hands is far different then having a whole line of it show up when SL tech wasn't available.
This would be incontrovertible proof that the Dragoons DID obey their orders from their late Khan to prepare the Inner Sphere for the oncoming Clan war … they artificially increased the Inner Sphere’s technology … they would be lauded as being on the side of the Inner Sphere and not the Clans …
Yay, they did everything that they were supposed to do to prepare the Inner Sphere!
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Now read the post where it says only Davion got the tech, and house Kurita would fall because of it
How can I when I do not know where it is, and you have yet to supply a link to it?
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Not sure how many were lost in the 3039 war. As well as any conflicts in between, like the Skye rebellions had destroyed a few
That is easy … nil, none … the agreement holds all Jumpships have been designated as non-combatants and no one is allowed to fire on them to destroy them. The Lyrans damaged them, yet they never destroyed them with their orphans.
Still does not change the fact when you look at the number of units being moved in the 4th Succession War and then in the Clan War there is a Clear bias by the writers as to restricting IS military movement.
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the IS did NOT have the numbers to properly defend all their worlds and have shown planets did not have huge amounts of fighters standing guard over them.
How many units went missing form the 20 year update to that of the Clan Wars?
And again please research the fact that there are available fighters in numbers … go back and re-read the forum on this very issue.
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The FC to remove the others and rule the IS.
Sorry but this cannot happen, as post Clan invasion the IS would now be in the age of the new Star League (similar to the UN you see on the show The Expanse)
Why? With the ejection of the First Clan Invasion – those Clans that remained on their home worlds would quickly initiate Trials of Absorption / Annihilation on those Clan that failed or defected to the Inner Sphere.
Soon thereafter a second Clan Invasion would commence ….
Thus, the new SLDF would be required to defend the young new Star League against this new threat …. In massive battles stretching all form the Clan Home Worlds to the Inner Sphere …
And new realms would emerge all throughout these deep space worlds …
Simple really!
So rather than manufacturing one of the most farcical eras from Jihad onwards we actually receive a more realistic, and more exiting wars, with many more adventurous plot twists than given … and if written correctly this could have been the start of a new 100 years war!
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You don't even know combat orders.
Primary Targets – First – The Warships
Secondary Targets – Second – can assign conventional fighters once within atmosphere …
It really is not that difficult.
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the fighters would deal with the immediate threat of land forces being brought in, then worrying about the unknown.
You do realize that at the academy you study history and the history of warfare – thus all academy graduates would have an understanding of what Warships are capable of during the Amaris-Kerensky War / Successions Wars when it comes to orbital bombardment.
Thus given the threat they pose, as being the biggest gun on the battlefield, THEY MUST BE TAKEN OUT FIRST!
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Your sea ships would probably not have even reached the lands to unload troops.
Yay… we got there! They probably would not have reached the lands to unload troops.
Thus demonstrating the importance of removing the Warship.
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you are suggesting the Warships should have opened fire the moment they could and just destroyed the world that was meant to be taken with as little damage as possible.
What is Clan Tradition when you initiate a Battle in this case? I expect the Clans to adhere to their traditions and be Clan.
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This is not how the story goes, and with this, it would not change the context of the invasion.
First, the old story wasn’t that great so it’s a plus to get rid of it.
Second, yep it would most definitely change the context.
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The IS would NOT have warships to start, nor would they have started using nukes until the second wave or past.
This all comes down to the writer if a rewrite is undertaken.
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WWII. Instead of hitting Normandy, they just landed in Germany, and removed a lot of fighting. The allies had the numbers and tech.
Really? Which Beach and how considering the stormy season as there.
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Victor did NOT start operation Gemini. He just allowed it to continue.
Which proves that he is both incompetent and cruel … and unfit for holding the top job.
And by extension he started the war with the FWL … it was Katherines quick actions that saved the LA from this unnecessary war. Though I would have preferred her to have taken this one step further and demanded his resignation as First Price / Archon for starting an illegal war through committing a crime and getting caught!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/08/21 09:02 PM
45.51.181.83
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Comprehension failure shown. Making SL tech when everyone else is making SL tech. Not suspicious. Then it goes on to say making clan tech, very suspicious. Context says it all. Not suspicious means no one would even blink an eye at it, while clan tech would raise all sorts of issues. Clan tech is far beyond what they knew what the SL equipment could do.
SL bases found all the time? Since when? And this is odd as you said NO one was looking for them.
Now a new point to add. What happened to the supplies that were in the SL bases the Dragoons found? Nothing was said about them keeping such supplies, so it is very likely the clans got it.
Where is the research into SL tech? Maybe that was being done as the Helm Core was being decoded. So why bother with exposing yourself at the time. Until the clans showed themselves, there is no real reason to give the IS a reason to sack your people. Once the clans showed up, then they would need all the help you could get. Also, some of the research teams, I believe Team Banzai had a friendly relationship with the Dragoons. It is very likely they were helping to decode the SL core. That would avoid some questions best not asked.
Do you really reason out what you suggest before putting it up? Making an internation brokerage while the main coms network is watching your every move. All your funding is being traced by all the houses that can. So yeah. It is that simple. Surprising that the houses aren't broke as hackers steal everything under the sun, since making a financial network is so easy.
Most weapons manufacturers do NOT get a mech lance, much less company to guard it. Even vehicles aren't as likely. Most have infantry and that is about it. Units are assigned as needed, when needed, not stationed there. There are a few notable exceptions with Defiance being a big one.
You said that once a factory changed hands, the previous owners were out of luck. The new owners would stop any sort of funds flowing to them.
Investing in companies other then your own is how you make money no matter what. It is also how you stranglehold the economy, as you have a say on all sides of the fence. Also, with Chandy's investments the government is more likely to be favorable to the company with contracts.
The money does not keep flowing to those that build or ran the business once it changes hands, with a few exception.
So yes. In order to keep the nations from removing all the executive board and stop letting funds go to those that once owned it, the Dragoons would have to step up and claim the factories.
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ghostrider
09/08/21 10:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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You really don't understand human nature? So produce Clan tech when SL tech was not even being made would not show loyalty to the IS, but as competition to the houses. The first time any word of such tech shown to be real would drive all the houses to destroy the dragoons, just to make sure the other side didn't get it. There does not have to be proof that you accept to say the Dragoons did what they were ordered to. That tech being made before others were even close would be the death of the Dragoons. They would take a lot of forces out with them, but in the end, they would be destroyed. Jamie knew this. Such tech would have been his ace in the hole. Superior tech is not just handed out to people.
You read the statement I made saying that if the tech was only given to Davion the DC would fall. You made a response to it saying they could get it from others.
So with this, you are saying you don't bother reading the posts before responding? I does follow most of the responses missing parts of what is being said.
This it the original statement : Yet if the Dragoons would have given the info to Davion when they first entered, the FC would not have come about. It would also have placed the FS as Comstar's target before Walterly. Comstar would have also been working to destroy the Dragoons as well.
This was also said when the statement of the DC not surviving had the above happened.
Your response went along the lines of you disagree.
No jumpships were destroyed in the time between the 4th war and the clan invasion? It shows you have absolutely no information on the story line. The Skye Rebellion destroyed a few jumpships to keep the rebellion quiet for a short while. This is canon fact, not alt bs you are talking about. Also given the books say the jumpship production barely outpace the destruction of them due to combat and misjumps, there is battle damage destruction of them.
Yes. Look at the number of units moved, and what it did to the FS. They were jumping 2 to 4 jumps at most. Not across the IS. They could return to their routes in less then 2 months, not years. There is no command circuit to move jumpships from the TC rim to the RWR rim in a few days. Each ship requires time to change, and they will have issues trying to hot load to decrease that time. It isn't passing a dropship between them. And look what happened. Katherine stole all the FS jumpships that were in LC territory when she ceded. The very fear that the FS commanders had about sending them when they did.
The forum you are talking about is your not related to canon numbers. The large concentration of fighters were kept to defend very important worlds, or to attack enemy worlds that were very important. They were not left to defend most world. So even having 30 regiments of fighters is not enough to cover all the worlds in the FC. As stated in multiple books, the fighters were sent to where they were needed most, which meant RCTs were often left with few, if any for their operations. But you don't want to know this, as it shuts down your arguments against canon. The alt is not canon, nor can be used to argue canon is wrong. This is not sinking in for you.
Now what did the rest of the paragraph say about the FC removing all the others and ruling the IS before the clans came in?
If the invading clans were ejected, the home clans would not wait to absorb or do anything else but launch a full scale invasion into the IS. The idea that you pushed would be the very thing to cause this. The clans would KNOW the IS would invade, and launch the offensive to prevent that from happening. And it is very doubtful they were bother with the batchall. They would probably bombard and even nuke things to prevent the invaders from hitting the home worlds. Going after just the Jaguars did what it was supposed to do. Shut down the invasion without setting off all the other clans at once. Had the other clans got involved, Task Force Serpent would have been history, and the IS would have only learned that as all the other clans started a total war concept fight. Which would also include full strikes against nation capitals.
No. Aerofighters first job is to remove the threat of landing units. Then you hit the unknown ships that are not disgorging troops. You do NOT trust the atmospheric craft to take out the attackers, especially with that many dropships coming done. This also means taking out their fighters as well.
And your example of Hawaii is oranges. The idea of invading units is not the same as defending a world. For you to land, you need to remove the defenders. You must remove the defenders, while the defenders need to remove the land threat first, then hit the sea warships. As you were foolish enough not to use the aircraft and battleship to help invade with, they would take out the carrier first, then the battleship.
As the Falcon warship was part of the attacking forces, and did nothing to bring operations against you, you leave it for the more immediate threat. Once the warship fired, or you even found out what it was, as they have not been seen in the IS for over 150 years, then you would have to figure out how to deal with it, but until then, you destroyed the forces heading towards the ground. Your analysis of what is the immediate threat is off. But then to admit this means your entire argument of going after the warships is completely flawed.
So you also know, a galaxy incoming is over 9 overlords. So that would mean a minimum of 3 regiments against your 1.
Funny. The clans did NOT follow traditions when they first entered the IS. No batchall was given for the Jade Falcons.
No rewrite is needed. The canon version used the numbers the developers wanted. Sending in your numbers to say this is what they did wrong because they had this many things doesn't work. What is so difficult to understand with this? Canon is not wrong because your made up number say so. It can be wrong because they screwed up things themselves, but needs to be shown thru that route, not my numbers say so.
Again, the BS comes out. Gemini was a good answer to keeping Marik supplying the troops needed to stop the clans. Joshua was going to die. There was no stopping that. Gemini was meant to give the FC time to survive against the clan attack. As Victor was NOT going to send the imposter to take the throne, it ends there. To suggest that doing so was horrible, yet the alternative would be losing millions of people do the clans shows your flaw in the whole argument. In this case, it would seem surrender was the best option. What else is there? Think about it before spouting more garbage.
It was Katherine's quick thinking that saved the LA. And how does that get her the title of first lord? You claim that by destroying the other houses is how. She had the chance to destroy parts of the FWL and the CC. Your analysis is she could end Victor at any time. Why not use him to further removal of the enemy while you can?
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