Wick
10/08/21 01:09 AM
68.169.149.5
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Help me out here folks.
Battle of Twycross (FASA product 1653) introduced the first "C" type mixed-tech refits on Inner Sphere mechs in a few scenarios: namely, a few common FedCom units, including the Marauder and Atlas. Dated to 1990, this is a good year and half or two before TRO:3055 introduced more proper fully-Clan-based second-line mechs. Since then, mixed-tech has generally been the domain of Inner Sphere mechs mounting Clan weaponry. We haven't seen many Clan mechs based on Inner Sphere chassis until TRO:GC and Battle of Tukayyid sourcebooks brought these mechs back into the fore.
This is what FASA wrote about the Marauder C and Atlas C on pages 48 and 49:
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Star Commander Halcap (Gunnery 3, Piloting 4), Marauder (Replace PPCs with Clan Large Pulse Lasers; replace AC/5 with Clan Ultra AC/5; add CASE to all ammo)
The Marauder in question is a MAD-3R refit with Clan weaponry. Does it have Inner Sphere-grade CASE, Clan-grade CASE, or no CASE at all?
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Star Command Alith (Gunnery 4, Piloting 5), Atlas (Replace AC/20 with Clan Ultra AC/20; replace LRM-20 with Swarm LRM-20; replace LT SRM-6 with Streak SRM-6)
The Atlas in question is a AS7-D refit with Clan weaponry. Does it have Inner Sphere-grade CASE, Clan-grade CASE, or no CASE at all?
If your answers are that the Marauder has IS-grade CASE, and the Atlas has none, you've read the above statements literally and know your current construction rules.
Yet the correct answer, per CGL, is that both have Clan-grade CASE, despite being illegal by current construction rules. Neither TechManual, or any other source going back to at least Battletech Master Rules, makes an allowance for IS-based mechs to mount Clan-grade CASE but both mechs have now been errata'd to include it, with a vague mention that a future TechManual errata (and presumably record sheets for a number of mixed-tech mechs) are going to apply entirely new rules.
All because apparently when they published new record sheets in Battle of Tukayyid Supplemental, the designer went overboard on adding heat sinks (which weren't mentioned in the FASA source or in CGL's own RS:3055UU-IS) to fill up the space and forgot to leave tonnage for any CASE. (Once again, the proofers and editors at CGL missed easily identified mistakes.) And as poster-child mechs, they don't want the Marauder to have a half-ton of empty space and don't want the Atlas blowing up all the time, so rather than reduce a heat sink from each (the obvious solution), they're allowing Clan-grade CASE to be added to these two mechs. This is a decision they apparently reached late last year but still haven't yet published any new rules to describe.
I don't understand this approach. Why not fix the record sheets for two mechs to accurately reflect what FASA wrote 31 years ago rather than opening Pandora's box to upset the hundreds of mixed-tech mechs have been designed since? This sounds suspiciously like technology they want to grant to the IS for ilClan era, but are willing to (once again) throw the previous eras (and rules) under the bus to accomplish it. And I don't like it.
They want to grant some new Inner Sphere mech launching in 3152 to have a zero-ton, zero-critical CASE, okay, I could buy that. The Houses had seen enough examples by then to be able to incorporate it into their chassis construction techniques just as the Clans did. I'd even accept it in the Civil War or Jihad era, because the IS had reverse-engineered omnimech technology by then. But why should Clan Jade Falcon in 3050 salvage a FedCom mech produced, say, 3010 or so, and by swapping out a weapon in the right torso, suddenly and magically gain the benefits of Clan construction techniques in the left torso? Its not logical, it doesn't line up to the Clan CASE explanation that its incorporated as part of the chassis construction process (not an add-on like IS-grade CASE), and it doesn't jive with rules that have been around for 30 years or so.
Does the game even really need a zero-ton, zero-critical space CASE for Inner Sphere-based mechs? Lighter Clan tech is certainly normal, but CASE is the only zero ton technology and was always explained to me that it was "free" to Clan mechs because the significant parts were incorporated into the chassis at construction, rather than being add-on technology. It was one of the features that made Clan mechs superior. CGL is now taking the approach that Clan-grade CASE is merely add-on technology, not part of the construction process, and at zero tons it effectively acts as an anti-gravity device compared to its Inner Sphere counterpart. Furthermore, if its add-on tech, then its salvageable, and ifs its salvageable, then the IS should have been using some of it in their unique refits as far back as 3050 since its much more efficient - and if that's the case, many dozens, and perhaps hundreds, of units are subject to possible revisions and errata. Its a hornet's nest that doesn't need kicking. Am I wrong?
With that absurd Devil writeup of RecGuide 8 begging us to believe in backwards time-travel or future-sight to make sense of its creation, the addition of anti-gravity to the BattleTech universe really angers me. When Ray Arrastia says he doesn't want massive changes that cause the game to lose a lot of players, I'm fairly confident that introducing multiple cases of magic is one of those massive changes that probably shouldn't be done.
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Karagin
10/08/21 12:26 PM
70.118.172.64
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No, they freely admitted in the book and elsewhere that refitted Inner Sphere mechs or "C" mechs would not always be at the zero tonnage of the main mech model. In the old record sheets they had said sheets and no one seemed to care. My group would use them when we would run Dragoon-centered fighting post Clan Invasion. Or when we wanted something different.
So of the "C" mechs are, in my opinion, stop-gap mechs, they aren't fully Clan tech, no built-in CASE, and they are more like a proof of concept thing, which leads to the building of the IIC style or type of mechs later down the road.
I like them and used them to flesh out the Dragoon ranks back in the day for the adventures and insanity that my group ran with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
10/08/21 12:29 PM
70.118.172.64
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As for anti-gravity, it's something that could happen in the sense of a repulsor style like Star Wars has or a very much watered-down take on the Renegade Legion AG drives. I gave my home tech faction grav tanks, but tempered them with major limits, like no flying in the air, and woods causes them problems.
So really my take is a mix of better hovercraft tech mixed in the abilities of the VTOLs to do things like pop-up attacks and similar things. Cost is the engine size is huge, as is the factor of cost of the whole thing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/08/21 12:29 PM
45.51.181.83
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A bad workaround for this is the rules were set so the IS player could not have CASE.
It would be possible for the clans to use their version as they have the unused version in their spare parts piles.
I know it sounds stupid, but best guess it the CASE does not survive combat or removal from clan units, with the exception of say pods.
It is a bit weak, but the first thing that comes to mind.
Looking up the Jenner IIC, which has CASE in it, the concept came up that the Marauder and Atlas were not IS refits, as the SL versions went with the SLDF into exile. They had those mechs sitting around in caches and such. I think the developers might have forgotten this, unless the mechs they put out were actual salvage on the field and refitted, verse being made on the clan worlds. As the Jenner is the only mech in the older books that were NOT brought with the clans when they left, this would be a major example of an IS refit.
Oh yeah. The Jenner isn't labeled as (C), but is 0 tons and 0 crits.
Granted the Marauder does have a clan version, that differs from the 'refit' version.
So the anit grav drive is basically a fanless hover system. I would assume less noisy then the fan style ones.
The issue that I can see about the anti grav drive is someone suggesting anti grav means there is a gravity generator available to be made. That changes the entire concept of space flight. It can also make a nice defensive weapon. A field with it set up, could pull missiles and ballistics into the ground, while slowing or possibly stopping units that move over the field if strong enough.
Edited by ghostrider (10/08/21 12:35 PM)
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Karagin
10/08/21 12:41 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
Looking up the Jenner IIC, which has CASE in it, the concept came up that the Marauder and Atlas were not IS refits, as the SL versions went with the SLDF into exile. They had those mechs sitting around in caches and such. I think the developers might have forgotten this, unless the mechs they put out were actual salvage on the field and refitted, verse being made on the clan worlds. As the Jenner is the only mech in the older books that were NOT brought with the clans when they left, this would be a major example of an IS refit.
Oh yeah. The Jenner isn't labeled as (C), but is 0 tons and 0 crits.
Granted the Marauder does have a clan version, that differs from the 'refit' version.
SL tech IS Inner Sphere tech, it's NOT Clan tech, thus the "C" mechs would not have CASE and they would NOT have the frame made of Clan Endo Steel. They are normally refits, like taking an existing mech removing the PPC, and putting a prototype ER PPC on it would be a refit, NOT a new mech.
For Soholam (think I got that right) units refitted Inner Sphere mechs would be perfect. They are not wasting things, the captured or long service frames are being used productively and thus giving the warriors a chance to go out in a blaze of glory.
The "C" mechs are NOT built from the factory, they are nothing more than captured or stockpile mechs that have Clan Weapons fitted to them and the gained room or weight saved isn't exploited or even worried about. Overall speed won't change since the frame is still for example a 75-ton frame, the lost weight doesn't, in the FASA/CGL math, give it any faster movement speed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/08/21 05:29 PM
45.51.181.83
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Page 92 of the TRO 3055 explains the entire concept of the (C) class units.
Also under the Jenner IIC, it says all the other IIC units are from old SL unit designs.
Now without the II (2) designation, it may well change the concept here. They may well be salvaged units being rebuilt with clantech, but there is a big issue with that. Combat does not always destroy units in the same fashion, or even cover when pilots just eject and the mech survives.
One mech may well lose the arms, while another could well have been nothing but the torso being left.
Cached units should have the clan made normal weapons, which are lighter and generally less crits needed. Which so far has been left out of all clan refits, as well as the IS not researching. Under the PPC heading of the wiki, section of improved ppc: Developed by the Clans shortly after the Exodus, the only differences between the Improved PPC and a normal PPC would be that the mass is only 6000 kilograms, and that the weapon only occupies 2 Critical Slots. All other performance characteristics remain same, and it would go on to become obsolete when the Clans perfected the ER-PPC. This weapon was also described in Interstellar Operations.[42]
So this is still in the game, but completely ignored.
As stated, a cached mech should have such weapons in it, so doubt the (C) ones are from caches.
As for a field refit. It is a bit questionable. It is most likely to be right, but as stated, the parts would have to be special made for the refit. The pod concept removes the need for custom fit parts, so a standard clan weapon would have to have additional brackets and other things made to fit into an IS model. I would believe the techs could make those parts on site, given the proper equipment.
As for the CASE, it would seem to be just another piece of equipment, though the blowout doors for explosions does create an issue, but again, the techs should be able to do the work needed.
As a side note, units that use ammo and run out, don't gain any speed when they use up their ammo, such as a single ton of MG ammo on the Locust or Stinger, or srm ammo on the Wasp. That is 1 ton from 20.
Edited by ghostrider (10/08/21 05:32 PM)
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Wick
10/08/21 05:36 PM
68.169.149.5
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No, they freely admitted in the book and elsewhere that refitted Inner Sphere mechs or "C" mechs would not always be at the zero tonnage of the main mech model. In the old record sheets they had said sheets and no one seemed to care.
But the old explanations and record sheets for these mechs summed up to less than total available mech weight. The Marauder gains 3 tons simply by swapping PPCs for Clan Large Pulse Lasers and the AC/5 for a Clan Ultra AC/5. Adding the IS-grade CASE doesn't present any problem because you've still got 2 and half tons remaining. CGL is of the opinion that all three tons must be filled with single heat sinks (despite not being written in the source), and as a byproduct it must mount Clan-grade CASE so it doesn't then go overweight. And they're adding Clan CASE to the Atlas entirely on a whim - Twycross doesn't say it had CASE of either kind, nor did it have CASE in RS3055UU. Somebody at CGL just feels like it needs it at Tukayyid, so they're adding it - and since there's no room for the IS version, it too is getting Clan-grade. I can understand errata to fix errors. I can understand retcon when needed and unavoidable. This is neither. Both are completely unwarranted changes.
The early C refits were exactly what they claimed to be: expedient field refits for second-line troops during the Clan Invasion when Clans that were ill-prepared for extended campaigns (read: Clan Jade Falcon) had to use salvaged Inner Sphere mechs as the only things available to replace losses that, in their hubris, they did not expect to incur. The Atlas and Marauder present in Battle of Twycross are explicitly refits of recently captured mechs - it says so on p48. They are not models that left on the Exodus and sat around for 265 years. Nor are they recent factory builds, as the Falcons captured neither an Atlas or Marauder plant in the invasion. Thus there is no reason to give them the benefits of proper Clan construction techniques. Furthermore, the defending unit at Twycross is the Jade Falcon Eyrie, defined as a "training cluster" in FM:CC as below the ranks of even second-line clusters. Such a unit isn't supposed to get good quality stuff. These warriors would be thankful some of their weapons got upgraded and they have a chance to earn a glory in actual battle. So now CGL is trying to tell us that serious investments of technician time should be spent on effectively "third-line" mechs to do more than just quick weapon replacements. Not impossible, but its a stretch. FASA had a smart idea to give them salvaged FedCom mechs with a simple few upgrades - CGL doesn't need to turn FASA's good idea into a lousy one of their own.
Later C mechs took a more planned approach, perhaps involving work at a factory or refit facility. These typically filled out the weight by adding heat sinks or additional weapons and equipment. And they honored CASE rules. No problems here.
Only with this new junk is CGL willing to mess with the CASE rules and retcon a FASA source. If CGL is adamant that Atlas C's at Tukayyid had CASE, then fine, make The Twycross model a C 2. Why the Marauder can't have one less heat sink is a mystery to me, but if they want 3 extra heat sinks, fine, drop the CASE from Tukayyid's Marauder C and make the Twycross version with IS-grade CASE the Marauder C 2. Neither warrants Clan-grade CASE, except in the minds of CGL developers who just want the poster-children to look good.
By CGL's own reasoning, why doesn't the Rifleman C, Shadow Hawk C, Thunderbolt C, Victor C, Warhammer C, or Archer C get Clan-grade CASE by the same measure? The only explanation I can muster is because these aren't the poster-children mechs, so they're left relatively alone (they do get extra heat sinks not named in Battle of Twycross, but that's a relatively harmless upgrade.)
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A bad workaround for this is the rules were set so the IS player could not have CASE.
It would be possible for the clans to use their version as they have the unused version in their spare parts piles.
I know it sounds stupid, but best guess it the CASE does not survive combat or removal from clan units, with the exception of say pods.
It is a bit weak, but the first thing that comes to mind.
Well, IS actually had CASE in TRO:2750 (1989), before the zero-ton, zero-critical Clan CASE appeared on TRO:3050 (1990). So once introduced, the rules never said IS mechs couldn't have CASE, they just had the bulky version of it.
That explanation isn't weak, its exactly how it was described to me when me and my group had questions about a zero-weight, zero-critical piece of equipment on the Clan omnimchs: That because Clan CASE is effectively part of the mech's internal structure you could not separate CASE from a Clan chassis. (Originally, this was explained to me to be an omnimech thing like pod technology, but it later became the norm for standard Clan battlemechs as well.) Thus you could salvage the weapons of a fallen Clan mech, but not the CASE. Its not that it doesn't survive (it does), you just can't "take it out", for lack of a better description. CGL is now saying that its an add-on. If its add-on, then logically it should then be able to be taken out and salvaged, and by extension, many IS mixed-tech mechs should be mounting salvaged Clan CASE. As none currently do (beyond the aforementioned Marauder and Atlas, and perhaps some "mistakes" from TRO:GC), this means all the mixed-tech units are subject to errata. Take Shelly Brubaker's Nightstar as perhaps the most obvious example I can think of. Its mounting Clan Gauss Rifles salvaged from Luthien. For 11 real-time years it has operated without CASE of any kind, because there isn't room or weight to add IS case to the torsos to protect her from an ammo explosion. Under new rules, CGL is inferring that the mechs these Gauss Rifles were salvaged from would have undoubtedly provided Clan-grade CASE as well. Therein lies the problem. CGL is now committed to issuing errata to revise a record sheet for an 11 year product to add Clan CASE to Shelly Brubaker's Nightstar (either arms or torsos). To not do so requires one of three equally absurd ideas: 1, That Wolf's Dragoons techs don't understand Clan tech well enough to implement Clan-grade CASE; 2, That Wolf's Dragoons purposely left valuable, life-saving technology lying on the battlefield; or 3, That add-on Clan-grade CASE magically disintegrates when a Clan mech falls in battle. There is no workable explanation for why Brubaker's mech would not have Clan CASE were it available to mount on her mech. Now repeat this process for 200 or so mixed-tech units, spread across 30-40 sources, going back years and years of both real-time and universe-time. Instead of working on ilClan era or fixing legitimate problems with earlier eras, they are inventing a problem that needn't be one and its going to suck up their resources to straighten out.
Its a bad decision all around. This is where Ray Arrastia, or Aaron Cahill, or someone else at CGL earns their keep by standing up and realizing this rule change causes much more harm than good, and nips it in the bud before they jump off the cliff. CGL has better things to do than devote time and resources to this mess. If ilClan doesn't get rolling for yet another few years, you might now know why.
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So the anit grav drive is basically a fanless hover system. I would assume less noisy then the fan style ones.
Regarding anti-gravity, I didn't mean hovertanks. Those aren't even anti-gravity: that's displacement over a cushion of air: not much different than boats being a displacement over a cushion of water. Totally legitimate technology, even in the 20th/21st centuries.
What I meant is technology that makes something that used to weigh 1000 kilograms now weighs zero without any explanation for it. The old reason was that the Clans built for CASE in mind, in exactly the same fashion as how omnimechs are designed for pod technology in mind. You don't have to pay a penalty for "pod" technology in omnimechs - its baked-in. By the same fashion, CASE was baked-in to Clan frames. Now CGL is saying its add-on. If the IS version is an add-on component, which is why it takes up critical space and incurs a weight penalty, why wouldn't Clan CASE by the same measure? If it followed the machine gun example, at 0.25 tons and a critical space, it could be explained. At zero tons and zero critical spaces, it is effectively weightless (and matterless) without the baked-into-chassis reasoning. Weightless without reason is anti-gravity.
I'm not sure what kind of explanation CGL might throw at us to get around this issue. Maybe they say Clan technicians can perform some kind of on-the-fly frame redesign such that it adopts the baked-in nature of Clan CASE. Its a pretty weak explanation though, and doesn't solve for Wolf's Dragoons or other highly proficient tech groups (say NAIS or Battle Magic) from replicating the process in just a few years time, which still presents the problem of retconning mechs and history in the Civil War, Jihad, or Dark Age eras. There's just no solution better than leaving well enough alone in my opinion.
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ghostrider
10/08/21 08:02 PM
45.51.181.83
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Actually, zero weight and crit CASE for clans makes sense if you consider that being part of the internal structure itself, IE it is already added into the structure when made. This might also help cover the idea of not being able to reuse it elsewhere. Doesn't solve it entirely, but it is a step.
For the other information, I don't have the newer books, so some information is beyond me.
I figured all (C) mechs were factory as nothing in the books said they were one off or limited to a few in number. I assumed they were making those units as they were. I know a few mechs in other books said some mechs were limited, as they were refits by some tech wizard. This sort of warning would have gone a long way to avoid issues like this.
The issue with refits is when they change something major, like the internal structure to endosteel, or the normal armor to Ferrous Fiber. That requires complete rework of internal spaces, which should NOT be allowed in anything but a major factory or machining facility. You basically rebuild the mech with the endo steel, and the fiber armor is almost as bad. There were issues with just changing out weapons, and now there isn't a problem with the crit stealing 'skin and bones"?
Given the fact the clans were not happy with non omni mechs, how many 'normal' weapon components were in the stocks to begin with? All omnis use the advanced weapons, such as ER and Pulse. Without adding those to the (C) line, salvage would be about the only way to get the packages for the refit.
And how well does a mech with IS endosteel, take to Clan Endosteel being used to fix it? This is for my knowledge.
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Karagin
10/08/21 08:23 PM
70.118.172.64
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In the Twycross book, it states that mechs aren't at the listed weights on the sheet, BUT you ignore the extra gained back weight for the C mechs. So really it's still a 75-ton mech frame-wise, just not when it's weighed on a scale.
And Ghostrider these mechs are refits, NOT purpose-built machines. They are leftover war surplus put back into use. No different than taking a Thorn or a Thug and swapping the weapons for the Clan version. You aren't changing the mech's structure. I think both of you are missing that part. These aren't factory built just refits.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Wick
10/09/21 02:05 PM
68.169.149.5
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Quote:
Actually, zero weight and crit CASE for clans makes sense if you consider that being part of the internal structure itself, IE it is already added into the structure when made. This might also help cover the idea of not being able to reuse it elsewhere. Doesn't solve it entirely, but it is a step.
For the other information, I don't have the newer books, so some information is beyond me.
I figured all (C) mechs were factory as nothing in the books said they were one off or limited to a few in number. I assumed they were making those units as they were. I know a few mechs in other books said some mechs were limited, as they were refits by some tech wizard. This sort of warning would have gone a long way to avoid issues like this.
The issue with refits is when they change something major, like the internal structure to endosteel, or the normal armor to Ferrous Fiber. That requires complete rework of internal spaces, which should NOT be allowed in anything but a major factory or machining facility. You basically rebuild the mech with the endo steel, and the fiber armor is almost as bad. There were issues with just changing out weapons, and now there isn't a problem with the crit stealing 'skin and bones"?
Given the fact the clans were not happy with non omni mechs, how many 'normal' weapon components were in the stocks to begin with? All omnis use the advanced weapons, such as ER and Pulse. Without adding those to the (C) line, salvage would be about the only way to get the packages for the refit.
And how well does a mech with IS endosteel, take to Clan Endosteel being used to fix it? This is for my knowledge.
Being part of the structure does solve it. Chassis parts are not considered interchangeable, except between the same mech or others that share a frame or are explained to be frame-compatible (like Spider and Venom, or Charger and Hatamoto-Chi.) Yes, you can salvage a Clan Endo Steel frame, but how are you going to use it? It has a different shape to anything you need - short of Frankenmechs its not feasible to use it. You can't even melt it down and recast it, as doing so loses the Clan construction properties and you end up with bulkier Inner Sphere-grade Endo Steel instead. The only "out" is a few very rare cases where the Clans advanced a Star League design so much as to produce a new Clan-grade Endo Steel skeleton which theoretically could be applied to an Inner Sphere mech: skeletal parts of a Drift Shag should be interchangeable with a Falcon for example. Replacing the arms and legs of a Falcon with those of a Drift Shag logically should save weight. But these situations are too rare and too convoluted for the rules to even mention.
Strictly speaking, all of the original C and EC mechs are supposed to be IS-based mixed-tech refits of Star League-era mechs (with a few Star League-in-Exile or very early Clan models made prior to 2820.) Quite a few C 2, C 3, and later variants are factory builds though. IIC mechs are supposed to be factory builds, but at least one exception comes to mind: Wolfhound IIC (which really should have been Wolfhound C instead.) Mechs identified as "(Standard)" as are also supposed to be factory-built, but TRO:GC may be blurring the line here on some of its units.
Refits can replace the internal structure for standard to endo steel or vice versa (as well as to/from any other types like composite), but it is an expensive and time-consuming process, and requires dedicated facilities or a mech factory to do it. (Strategic Operations p169-175 covers this from a rules standpoint.) The Houses routinely refit Star League mechs with endo steel chassis to use standard materials throughout the early Succession Wars. Mercs with less access to such facilities, or the cash to invest in it, rarely went this path. They probably sold busted up Endo Steel-based mechs to their House employer, who had the means to refit it to something useful (and the Houses were not wasting any mechs that could be refit, regardless of cost.) I have a bigger problem replacing the frames when its not justified by the needs of desperate house militaries. Clan Jade Falcon replacing the frames of Marauders and Atlases constructed by lowly Inner Sphere barbarians is entirely unwarranted. Its bad enough they have to put them on the field next to their own, far superior mechs. If they brought enough Clan weaponry (and the massive deployment of omnimechs would demand they do) then I can understand replacing the Inner Sphere junk with pristine Clan-made guns. But their techs have no business disassembling mechs to rework the frames to support CASE (and arguably, to add heat sinks either.) Even the Marauder bothers me as I personally don't think it should have added CASE, though as the leader of the binary, I suppose Star Commander Halcap could force his techs at gunpoint to make such a change.
Sometimes though, real mistakes are made because authors wrote themselves into a corner. The Mongoose has long been a problem that Wizkids never fixed and CGL has yet to fix. Its well known that Star League era MON-66s were downgraded to standard structures (MON-67) during the Succession Wars. Yet this statement from TRO:30650U p188 (Wizkids, 2007, with an in-universe date of 3058) presents a serious problem: "Recovery of lostech has made the Beagle available, however, and currently a Mongoose without a probe is almost unheard of." Given that there is no post-Helm Mongoose design that mounts a Beagle Probe until MON-86 in 3078, this implies that nearly every Mongoose in the Inner Sphere, including those owned by mercenaries, has reverted to MON-66 specs by 3058, which requires replacing its standard structure with Endo Steel. Not outright impossible but highly improbable - most merc groups just don't have the money for that. (And the same page even says "Examples have been observed in all of the major armed forces, several Periphery realms and in mercenary commands ranging from the most prestigious to the most questionable." so poor mercs certainly do own Mongooses.) A new model that keeps the standard structure but adds back the Beagle probe by dropping weapons and/or armor is the obvious solution. But instead of fixing genuine problems like this, CGL is going to create new problems changing how CASE works...
On the other hand, armor is externally mounted so exchanging standard for Ferro-Fibrous is not considered a factory-level change. Techs replace damaged armor all the time. Assuming the mech has enough free criticals for it, and there's no other restriction (such as LAM being unable to use it), they can exchange standard for Ferro-Fibrous pretty easily. Inner Sphere mechs can even mount Clan-grade Ferro-Fibrous without difficulty - the only problem is that they have such a limited supply of the stuff that its likely they'd have to resort back to Inner-Sphere grade before too long.
Engines can also be replaced in the field for the same reason, and because several field refit kits in the 3050s-3070s explicitly included XL or Light engines. The frame is special; besides being buried under all the components and swathes of myomer cable that has to be removed, replacing a frame means replacing all internal structure value, and by strict interpretation of the rules, removing all internal structure boxes from a mech destroys it. A factory setting is the only place to "safely" do it. I'm not certain but I'd imagine TSM also requires a factory setting to install since it too is a matter of stripping a mech down to its bare bones (though without technically "destroying" the center torso.) That said, many mechs go to factories/facilities for refits even for less significant changes: its often more convenient to bring the mechs to one place where all the replacement parts can be stored and dedicated technicians can do the job quicker. The Whitworth WTH-2 is a factory-based refit, despite being a very basic upgrade that merely replaces a pair of medium lasers for Artemis IV equipment.
Karagin, you are right that a Marauder frame allows it a 75 ton maximum weight. What I mean is that it doesn't break any rules for its components to sum to 72.5 tons. A Victor that has its right arm blown off is technically still an 80 ton mech even though its components add up to 66 tons and without the right arm's structure or myomers its weight on a scale might put it only around 65 tons. I have no problem with the C models presented in Battle of Twycross being under their maximum weight. I don't understand why CGL intends that every mech design add up to exactly its maximum allowable weight.
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Karagin
10/09/21 03:34 PM
70.118.172.64
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Where does it say the Clans were not happy with the omnimechs?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/09/21 10:39 PM
45.51.181.83
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The issue with Endosteel and Ferrous armor is in the crit department. The point is, that changing out normal armor to ferrous fiber means you have to assign the crits to locations, yet to even try, means having to redesign and rebuild the mech. The fiber armor can not be a field refit. Otherwise, you should be able to change out sections and not have an issue, such as only a leg has fiber armor while the rest of the mech has normal. And worse, if you try and put clan fiber armor on a mech that has standard.
Also, the internal structure of a unit is implied to be able to be grafted to other units, so fixing the internal structure of say an arm can be done with spares. There is nothing saying those spares are custom to the mech. It also does not suggest you can not cut apart the structure of another unit to use as that spare. Jury rigging does come to mind with this, but it isn't constant with the work. Jury rigging is trying to replace the entire limb. And with a jury rig, you can add on say a clan fiber armor limb to another unit. It is just like lbx and ultra ammo. There is nothing saying you have to have straight IS or clan ammo for the weapons.
I do agree with the CASE being implied it was a simple blast proof box put into a unit with blow out doors, so there should be an easy way to change it to another unit, providing the space is there. It is getting picky, but a CASE made to fit a single ton of ammo, should not be able to hold 2 or more tons. But the rules don't get into that, at least that I know of. And with this, all pods are considered to have CASE, yet they can be fitted into other units. So this should mean clan CASE is not reusable in other units.
I have stated that to replace Endosteel in normal structure mechs, you are basically rebuilding it from the ground up. Almost to the point of why not build a new unit? This came out when the idea of SL upgrades were done.
Some omnis are shunned by the clans. The Naga being the main one. A few others are used, but not liked by some clans. For the most part, the omni is the ideal mech for the clans.
A quick note on the changing out things on mechs captured from the IS. The khans are more likely to deny the high grade stuff for captured units. Their minds, it is a waste to use the items on a dezgra unit. So a PGC commander would have to basically steal the stuff. This is not all the clans, but most.
In the long run, the clans 'improved' weapons would be sent forward in order to 'upgrade' the factories they captured to at least produce almost tolerable units, if they deny the high end tech.
But would the clans replace the double heat sinks of units, in order to use clan double sinks? Or are clan sinks compatible with IS double sinks?
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Wick
10/09/21 11:05 PM
68.169.149.5
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ghostrider said they weren't happy with *non* omnimechs. I.e., second-line mechs. I think he's trying to explain that there would be a limited number of weapons that are not pod-equipable and they'd be wasted on the former-FedCom mechs. I know the Inner Sphere had some compatibility issues when they first launched their omnimechs, but I think its a fair assumption that after 180 years the Clans have had time enough to resolve things to the point that pod and non-pod weaponry are effectively interchangeable. They would certainly have brought many extra weapons to the front-line to facilitate omnimech configuration changes, so assuming these weapons can be used on both omnimechs and non-omnimechs, there's plenty to go around to justify slapping some onto captured mechs. Though only specific types: for example Large Pulse Lasers appear on many of the Twycross C mechs, but I don't think any of them exchange Medium Lasers for Clan ER Medium Lasers. ER Mediums may have been in short supply. I actually like the fact FASA only upgraded some weapons, and not all of them.
Also, if anyone's interested in seeing CGL's response to this issue, this is my latest post where I point out the flaws in CGL's reasoning. They don't really care. They've made a decision and have a appealed to the "Because I Say So" argument. They don't want to have logical discussion. They don't want to have scientific reasoning. They don't think the rules are subject to fan scrutiny.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/errata/errata-discussion-thread/msg1770749/#msg1770749
(Don't bother replying though - They've already deleted at least one reply.)
That's right folks. We have officially entered the realm of Magic-infused Battletech.
CGL representatives have made an official ruling that gravity and density no longer matter to the rules, and to date still haven't resolved the time-travel/future-sight paradox of Rec Guide 8 yet either (and no expectation that they ever will now.) Ray Arrastia is a bozo and a liar for saying he didn't want to introduce massive changes that cost the game fans. Damn fool had obviously already made the decision on CASE well before his interview, and I shamed him then for the time paradox which he still hasn't felt the need to correct a month and a half later. BattleTech was just fine for 30-something years, and in the short time since taking over he's already pushed through two scientifically-impossible concepts. We deserve better.
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Wick
10/10/21 12:28 AM
68.169.149.5
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Quote:
The issue with Endosteel and Ferrous armor is in the crit department. The point is, that changing out normal armor to ferrous fiber means you have to assign the crits to locations, yet to even try, means having to redesign and rebuild the mech. The fiber armor can not be a field refit.
Hmm. I think I need to retract my earlier statement. I thought for sure it was, but now that you question it and I search my unit database and the TRO:3050 PDF, I can't find a single example for a field refit adding Ferro-Fibrous armor.
Not sure why not though. If the mech has the critical spaces available, it should be able to make external changes. I don't see it as any different than changing weapons, which also might change the internal critical spaces of a mech.
Unquestionably the reverse should be true though. Replacing Ferro-Fibrous with standard undoubtedly occurred in the field thousands of times in the early succession wars.
Quote:
There is nothing saying those spares are custom to the mech. It also does not suggest you can not cut apart the structure of another unit to use as that spare. Jury rigging does come to mind with this, but it isn't constant with the work. Jury rigging is trying to replace the entire limb. And with a jury rig, you can add on say a clan fiber armor limb to another unit. It is just like lbx and ultra ammo.
Correct in terms of fiction. The description of Frankenmechs are notable examples. But rules-wise its not allowed. The game has never had set of consruction rules for Frankenmechs. For example, Shorty Sneede's mech has a Rifleman's body, a Phoenix Hawk's head, a Warhammer's arm, and an Archer's side torso and arm. What kind of crazy hodgepodge of rules would be needed to explain the creation of such a mech?
Quote:
There is nothing saying you have to have straight IS or clan ammo for the weapons.
Mostly true. Anti-Missile System might be an exception. The Clan shot is expressly half the size of its Inner Sphere counterpart. I've no idea if IS AMS can fire Clan ammo or if Clan AMS can fire IS ammo though. I doubt there's been any mech to put it to the test. (I presume CGL's answer would be either system can fire either ammo. Oh, and you get free CASE by the way, too.)
Quote:
I do agree with the CASE being implied it was a simple blast proof box put into a unit with blow out doors, so there should be an easy way to change it to another unit, providing the space is there. It is getting picky, but a CASE made to fit a single ton of ammo, should not be able to hold 2 or more tons.
Well CASE merely directs the explosion away from the middle of the mech, but doesn't help prevent damage to that location (the internal structure and all equipment is destroyed). So the same redirection plates and a single door should work regardless of one ton or ten tons of ammo. Your concerns are certainly warranted for CASE II however. Since that prevents damage, logically CASE II should be only half as effective for two tons of ammo exploding as for one.
Quote:
I have stated that to replace Endosteel in normal structure mechs, you are basically rebuilding it from the ground up. Almost to the point of why not build a new unit? This came out when the idea of SL upgrades were done.
Agreed. Downgrading from Endo Steel to standard is something the Houses felt forced to do just to keep their military equipped and stay ahead of the other guy. Upgrading from standard to Endo Steel is a waste.
Quote:
But would the clans replace the double heat sinks of units, in order to use clan double sinks? Or are clan sinks compatible with IS double sinks?
It's my understanding they are compatible. I suppose they could replace the Inner Sphere models with Clan grade ones though to save space for other changes. I can't identify a single example though. All the Twycross mechs use single heat sinks (unless there's even more errata I'm not aware of), and all the TRO:GC mechs keep IS doubles if they had them, or upgrade single to Clan doubles. If the mech advances from Star League tech to Clan tech though (like the Naja), it obviously uses Clan doubles once it makes that leap.
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Cray
10/10/21 09:12 AM
71.47.193.139
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What page of Tech Manual makes it illegal to mount Clan CASE on an Inner Sphere chassis?
Side comment: there were multiple designers of the Tukayyid 'Mechs, reviewed by a team of fact checkers.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
10/10/21 01:28 PM
45.51.181.83
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I had forgotten about case not being a box so much as a wall to prevent damage from going in. Which makes the idea that transferring CASE from one unit to another more difficult, as it would need to be reshaped to fit the unit it is going in. Not that it is impossible, but you might run into issues of not having enough material to do the job right, IE case from a Firemoth being placed in a Battlemaster. The box idea was throwing me off with the ammo capacity. I was thinking that a CASE for a Rifleman, which only has one ton of ammo, placed is say an Archer, would not work for 2 tons of ammo. That was incorrect thinking.
The clans loved the Omni style units.
It isn't just weapon systems that the khans would restrict from units not on the front line, at least for the initial invasion. Ferrous Fiber armor being something the front lines were going to need, so not allowing second line units to use it would be enforced. Even electronics would be restricted. After a decade or so, then it would lighten up, but by then, they should have upgraded the factories they took to make some of the stuff. Or have increased the amount brought in from the home worlds.
The issue with all equipment, not just weapons fitting into all the different units is how the equipment is made. Each manufacturer would have their own design, so fitting a Donal PPC into an Awesome that uses the Kruger PPC needs modification. The pods are made to deal with that, non Omni mechs aren't. So it would be to the best interest of the clans to redesign the equipment at the factory to fit their standardized specs.
No offense Cray, but seeing some of the things that were missed, I have to say I am not confident of those fact checkers. Given the rule changes as well, some things become obsolete or available that weren't in the past.
As for CGL, it is not surprising they don't want to deal with their logic issues. Most of this would have been solved by allowing the IS to make clan equipment. Not sure of when they took over verse that decision, but they could very well have had the IS start making it 'illegally' when they did take over control. The half weight missile launchers being one of the main things that might be an issue. Not sure if it is how it is made, or if there are materials in it that allow for the weight issues. Eventually, the IS would find out, even if just thru clans defecting to the IS.
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Karagin
10/10/21 11:39 PM
70.118.172.64
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Guys the point has been missed, the mechs that the Falcons used didn't have every weapon replaced with Clan tech, just some. The armor wasn't Clan tech armor, NOR were the inner comments. Mostly it was major weapons swapped out and/or some minor ones.
Now the mechs the Clans had in caches in the Pentagon worlds are going to be a mix, anything that was stored from leftover or survived the fighting in the Exodus Civil War would be similar to the C mechs, they would have retro-fitted weapons of better tech or refitted to Clan tech as needed.
Then you would have the true Second Line mechs that are indeed purpose-built, like the Warhammer IIC, etc...or the non-Omnis like Canis, etc..these would have all the cool Clan tech wonder items, built-in CASE, Clan XLs, Endo, and Ferro.
Again it's clearly stated that the mechs on Twycross were REFITTED to give the Falcons use of them for their Soholam units, nothing more. And it was also stated in TRO3050 (the Original one) that the second line Clan mechs were omitted because they were for the most part REFITTED Inner Sphere mechs with some expectations. That being the IIC and purpose-built non-Omnimechs.
It also makes sense for the Clans during the invasion to retro fit captured mechs, give them to their second line troops, and move better mechs, yes even IIC mechs, into front line units to keep the fighting moving forward.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/11/21 01:49 AM
45.51.181.83
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The idea that even the Falcons would rely on capturing IS mechs to equip their second line units sounds off. The fact the books say this shows just how little they really thought about things.
Given the fact that most trueborns hated the IS garbage mechs, it is unlikely they would rely on them for the second line. The refits from homeworld would be more likely.
After a short while, I can see the clans moving to refitting IS mechs as they would need transport space for other things, but this concept might help the idea of using salvaged mechs.
This also sounds like the clans brought more weapon systems then the story line suggests. Granted, time frame has a lot to do with this, as I am stuck in the first few years of the clans being in the IS. When they got kicked out of the clan home worlds, this would be almost necessary, as their ability to replenish their losses would be finite at best.
Did they say if the Marauder or Atlas was an updated model? I want to say they put in CASE in those units, but don't have the books handy right now.
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Karagin
10/11/21 11:48 AM
70.118.172.64
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No, it doesn't Ghost Rider; they would use it because it frees up front-line stuff in that they don't have to leave front-line units to guard the new world they capture, and it puts to use the captured military equipment. Very common for armies to do that. Use the enemy's stuff against them.
Refitting existing frames with some Clan weapons wouldn't be hard, then you have your second and third line troops armed and able to do something versus surrendering.
The storyline only talks about supplies for the Clans when they are stupid; yes, they wanted to fight a limited battle, it makes sense; a sharp, quick fight to beat the enemy move on is what every commander wants; reality speaks differently.
Supplies were always on the move from the Homeworlds to believe otherwise is crazy. And no, it doesn't matter if it's day one of day 9999 of the invasion, using the captured materials, be it mechs or what not, is something they would do to offset their own losses.
What Marauder and Atlas updates? IF they were purpose-built IIC mechs, then yes they would have Clan tech across the board, if they were refitted mechs then no, they would only have Clan weapons.
The Clans are not the idiots the Inner Sphere thinks, they are not the smartest either but they are not dumb, they will not waste mechs in a scrape yard when they work and can be field to give the Clan something else to fight with.
Part of the issue is that this is an area that gets mentioned several times, but never really gets explored and I hate to say this but it's also colored by the piss poor rendering of the Smoked Jaguars as the WW2 German military in that they were said to use captured stuff more, yet nothing is really given that made sense. It was more of they wanted to remove a Clan for story purposes and this was a cheap and lazy way out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/11/21 01:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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The time line is important, as bringing up the PGCs would also have included their mechs. To send them without units would be beyond wasteful. As you said, they were trying to keep the front line units maxed out, and given the implications that most units were destroyed, not captured during the initial invasion, relying on salvage would be foolish.
Not sure where it was suggested that the supply runs were slowed or stopped, but that would not happen until after the IS clans were denied access to the home worlds.
The Marauder/Atlas updates were about IS updates. If they were they may have already had IS CASE in them. This is why I asked about it. I don't have the book to find out myself.
Again, the time line comes into effect. As the clans started losing units, they would have been more and more likely to try salvaging IS mechs, then when they first invaded. This does not mean they didn't from the start, but more of ignored most of it so they didn't have to put more resources into the tainted IS mechs. The Falcons would have been more willing to use the IS mechs during their time of running out of supplies. Such as the food issue. Going from the 'tainted' food not being touched to having to use it, or starve syndrome.
I believe the concept of nerfing the FC was a prime reason for a lot of the things that happened, I would agree that removal of the Jaguars was done to keep the story going. Cheap ways out seem to happen a bit. The Jihad being a large one. Clan tech not being made in the IS being another large one.
As stated, even without using the high end tech, the reduced weight and crit weapons WOULD have been done in the IS, but that would make the IS a little more challenging. The missile carrier tanks shows this. But imagine a Schrek with more weight that could be used. Even just 3 tons would change how difficult it would be to take one on. Something the developers would hate to see, as it would make vehicles even more of a threat. (scary)..
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Karagin
10/11/21 02:13 PM
70.118.172.64
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The PGCs were moving in right behind them, and many would have been stripped of their working equipment IF needed to keep things moving forward, so using the captured IS mechs, which many would be captured and easily repaired from existing stores on the worlds or from other salvaged IS mechs.
Nothing about reduced weights, the mech is still the internal weight limit. If it's a 75-ton mech and the Clan tech weapons bringing the weighted total down to say 70, it's rated as the 75-ton weight because of the frame.
The Inner Sphere would love to get lighter weapons, but that's not what they got overall, if you look a lot of stuff was the same weight as the older stuff but smaller in size or bigger depending on what it was.
The ONLY way vehicles would be a threat is if the TO HIT TABLE for their damage is fixed.
Using IS mechs in Falcon PGCs would allow them to pull purpose-built IIC mechs or non-Omnis out for front line use, there would be no shortage beyond combat losses and resupply time issues, but look a PGC has these workable second line mechs with full Clan tech, so hey let's use those till more equipment catches up to the push. That is a logical move by the Falcon. Again you can't read into things with the bias of how the Clans overall are presented, if that was the case then we should have seen more hold and fight by the Steiner half of the Fed-Com than we did see, as well as the Combine, counterattacking recklessly, even with Theodore's changes, all because how those Houses reacted in the past.
Go read the Twycross Scenario Pack, not the Wiki version of it, but the actual book itself. It tells you a lot about the whys and hows. Also if you haven't used the mechs, the "C" mechs, they aren't all that great, cool sure, but not any better than their IS counterparts.
Most players also make the assumption that "C" style refits are something the Dragoons would do, and that does make sense. They can build Clan tech and certain Omnis, but then again they do have a lot of IS mechs they could refit with Clan weapons and some electronics, which is hinted at in the write-ups of original 3055 for several variants of mechs that the Dragoons were using at the time.
Also, the "C" mechs put a stop to the munchkin abomination of mixed tech home mechs, since they do put a limit on things. The ONLY changes are the mechs weapons and limited electronics, no extra added items that could be added with the overweight saved, that kind of limit should have been in place for mixed tech NON-FACTORY built mechs aka homemade mechs using mixed tech setups.
Take the Marauder, drop the IS PPCs and Autocannon, swap in Clan tech counterparts. Nothing else changes. You still have heat issues, more so now, you still have range issues for the Autocannon, but all you gain is better PPCs in the long run. The mech hasn't changed in fighting ability, just in how much it can dish out, but it can only take the damage that a normal Marauder can take. Nothing changes beyond that. NO Clan CASE, FERRO or ENDO or DHS or standard or XL engines used. Then with the need NOT to add anything else you can field the mech back into action faster.
Also, a destroyed unit means it's combat ineffective in that it's wiped out (but that doesn't mean annihilated) as far as being able to be used in a fight. Mechs with repairable damage would be salvaged and put to use, in this case, the Falcons chose to use them for their PGC on Twycross. I call that a smart move and one that follows their (Clans) idea of not wasting things that can still serve the goals of the Clans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
10/11/21 05:56 PM
1.158.203.76
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Clan Jade Falcon
World: Sudeten
(September – October 3050)
Facility: Olivetti Weaponry
Black Lanner …. Production Year 3052
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/12/21 09:18 PM
45.51.181.83
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I will say the the damage location table is a large factor in nerfing vehicles, it does not make them impotent in the first shots fired. Reducing the amount of crit does raise the threat level of mechs being king, so we know that can't happen. But just being able to carry and fire more weapons does threaten mechs. In the case of the SRM carrier, if half weight launchers are used, 20 SRM 6 packs would fire instead of just 10. This would actually mean the carrier might use the full ammo stores before the thin armor is blown away.
We know the only thing the IS got from the clans is hurt. Only buying items or getting salvage was how they got any higher level tech. But I would like to know WHY they didn't at least get the lighter variants of the normal weapons. Well a good reason, not TPTB limiting the IS, or trying the cost bs, like they did with the better weapons.
We know the PGCs would have their units confiscated when the front line needed things. Which is odd, as the way the clans were written, they front lines would refuse to use them, yet in the end, they would take anything to avoid not having a ride. Necessity overriding idiocy I would guess.
But given the better weapons, I can see the clans making the main weapons on a unit better with their tech. I would also see that replacing all the weapons would be a waste. The clans idea of sitting at range should make the secondary weapons almost useless, until the enemy got close enough.
The clan thinking that the second and beyond lines should not be armed as well as the front lines, does come into play.
As stated in another thread, the clans would move units around to where they are needed, since no clan warrior owns the mech they use. In a sense, this gave them some units in reserve. It is unusual that there wasn't large traps made to wipe out chunks of the clanners. The Great Gash should not have been the first successful use of something like this, nor should the clans have taken depots and not have them go up in an explosion. This should have been standard once the IS found out the clans were not just another unit from other houses or pirates.
Not just scorched earth, but taking the enemy with it.
A side question about internal structure. How do you replace small parts of it? Such as a point or two being damaged? This is why I believed you could cut up structure on other units to make those 'patches'. Salvage being a main source of such repair parts. It is possible they cut them into sections that can be used to do this, but it still stands as using other structures to work with. The concept of using clan endosteel to fix IS endosteel comes into question. As the rules don't say it is possible or not, this is an issue.
And I would like to know just what is the difference between the CASEs. I could understand that pod case being weightless and critless, do to the pod itself. But what makes it diffferent when added into a unit?
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Karagin
10/12/21 10:51 PM
70.118.172.64
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No, vehicles are not a real threat to mech unless in numbers. The To Hit Table kills them too fast, look at every secondary modifier to the table roll. You can have 10 Gauss Rifles and one single damn side hit and you have a 200-ton pillbox that is left to fester and that's it. Fix the To Hit Table and then I will say vehicles can hurt mechs one on one. We have beat this to death too many times. The game won't fix the issues thus the point is a dead one.
All militaries have dumb regulations/rules/traditions, etc...and some times those color things, but when it comes down to it the troopers will use what is given to them to fight. And you are a Clan warrior who will take the IIC mech or second-line mech into combat because they can still die fighting for their Clan and glory.
Not much should be different between the CASE systems other than the Clans built it into ALL their chassis and the Inner Sphere only puts into mechs that need it and not always then.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/13/21 02:40 AM
45.51.181.83
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I know vehicles are nerfed when it comes to being hit. The tables have changed since they first came out, and I am not all the familiar with the new ones, but if I remember right, it drops from 50% kill rate down to like 33% with a single hit. Engine/ammo/crew hits were the original 3. The others were bad, but not instant death.
This is why I believe TPTB keep ANY advanced equipment from vehicles. It goes back to the issue of heat. A mech overheats while a tank doesn't. The ballistic/missile issue cause vehicles to be more powerful if not for the crit tables when taking damage. I had originally thought it was foolish to spend so much on a vehicle, as you could die 50% of the time with a single hit.
The idea has come up about the CASE materials. As it is stronger then normal armor, what happens if you use it as the normal armor on a unit? It can withstand explosions and projectiles, as the ammo would turn as they go off. Simply sloping the armor away from the mech would be able the same thing as having it channel the explosion towards the back. Physics would suggest a hole where the critical shot came from to set off the ammo. Also, the capacitors of the Gauss rifle is channeled as well, so energy is not a major factor to it. Sounds like some magic metal when you think about it.
Honestly, if the CASE was 0 weight and 0 crits, the IS would put it into everything, except when they were trying to keep the price of the unit down. Which may be why the developers are so adamant of not allowing it.
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Karagin
10/13/21 10:06 AM
70.118.172.64
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I wouldn't say it is stronger. Go look at the CASE the Abrams and other MBTs use in real life, that is what the Battletech CASE is. It's really nothing more than a blowout box that redirects the blast of ammo cooking off away from the rest of the mech/vehicle and thus prevents it from moving from the location to the next location, etc...
The only magic in Battletech is plot armor and bias by TPTB for their pet groups and lazy writing at times. Kind of like the UltraSmurfs in 40K, or the main crew of the Enterprise.
IF the Inner Sphere could figure out how to get it into their mechs, etc...sure they would, but they can't even make Endo Steel take up less room. It's more of the Inner Sphere has its tech base and the Clans have theirs. Where the IS goes crazy with asinine ideas, like Acid Sprayers and Chainsaws for us in combat, the Clans tend to stick to a more linear approach to weapons and construction tech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/13/21 12:11 PM
45.51.181.83
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Then there should be a weakness in the location of the blast doors in a mech. At least running logically, which I know isn't a strong suit for the game. But the fact that shrapnel would be sent out in all directions during the initial explosion would mean the CASE would have to be stronger then expected. As stated, there would be a hole where the shot that hit the ammo was at, so there would be some issues there.
The thing it, just modifying the basic blueprints would allow CASE installation in everything, and not add weight or crits to it. Pretty much just adding the blow out doors. The sections should be separated, otherwise a flooded area would spill over into the other sections of a unit. This is something that came as a question to me. I thought the torso was open to each other torso location. But with the flood and void breaches, it can't be. I know, I know. Logic doesn't work.
It is amazing that the clans can take new IS tech and make it better within a few months of release. This shows that the clans don't worry about funds. Unlike the IS bs, they can make the stuff without concern. Not only does it come out, but it seems to be on non omni mechs as well.
But we know it is TPTB that don't want the IS gaining the tech that prevents their next boogie man from being overly powerful without huge numbers to back it up.
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Karagin
10/13/21 12:31 PM
70.118.172.64
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And you hit the nail on the head, for the Clans, it's not a money thing, it's a need thing. They need mechs, so they build them. Not worrying about contractors or the MIC like the Inner Sphere as to do.
Sure CASE could be put on everything, but that takes away from the character of the Inner Sphere, they are still playing catch up in some areas and ahead in others. Which is par for the course. We can build hover tanks right now with the tech we have today, but is there a need no, but it can be done. Would they be better than tracked or wheeled vehicles? Unknown but most likely no. So having the ability doesn't mean there is a need or want. Putting CASE on Inner Sphere mechs might happen in another 100 years, but right now it's not a major concern. Recall, for the most asinine reason, the Inner Sphere gave up a large number of their mechs when Stone cried about war being barbaric, etc...so now they are back to playing catch up to get their numbers back, so pre-installed CASE is not something they want to worry about.
As for it having a weak spot, it would be great to have since you could say it was taken out by a critical hit like senors or hip, etc...but that would mean it would need to be on the Clan Omnimech and Battlemech sheets as already in the crit layout diagram. For the Inner Sphere, it would be easy to crit it, but that makes it pretty worthless for most players. Look at how the majority of players treat things like AMS, ECM, and the Probes. They either don't use them at all, or don't know how or when to use them, or don't use the mechs that have them, unless forced to by a scenario or convention game, so it comes down to players on some things. Are you going to use something that can hurt your mech without some kind of major gain?
Right CASE is the least messed up thing in the game, ACS and other "cool" toys are more of an issue than CASE.
Same for the Inner Sphere, as has been stated WAY back in the original TRO3050, the Inner Sphere Houses can make Clan tech, however, the cost was/is too much. Now the logical answer would be over time it would come down, but why tool factories when you buy the stuff via the Sharks who are already making it?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
10/13/21 09:38 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is a few reasons why hovercraft should be built in this day and age. But the ability to use other forms of vehicles, even though more equipment intensive, is possible. Hovers would be very useful for say a marine landing on a different continent, like they are starting you use, but you can use 'ducks' and other vehicles to move units. Just working out more bugs should be reason enough. They are also useful in areas with sandbars and shallow water swamps and such. But again, you can get away with using other types.
It sounds like trying to fill a niche, which is very likely so. But if you can advance the tech, so they can do 'low flying' maneuvers, much like the WiGEs, then you can gain some advantages, like jumping over a roadblock or small mine field. Yes, VTOLs would be better to fill that spot at this point, but if you don't want thousands of vehicles sitting around in storage, you want an all in one unit if you can get a good working one.
Besides cost, case would help prevent a lot of units being lost, though when the enemy owns the battlefield, this isn't a good thing. Some mechs would benefit from CASE while others doesn't matter so much. Life is cheap, Mechs aren't is the tag line. But highly skilled soldiers are hard to replace when you need them. This does have circular logic to it, which goes along with the vehicle crits. So trying to nail it down isn't easy. I am guessing it's not worth trying.
Thinking about the vulnerable spot on CASE made me realize just how bad something like that would be for pods. Every single one of them would have a spot you would start aiming for, in order to take out the omnis faster.
Technically, every mech with ammo has something that can hurt them. If you can't use it up before they can reach it, the gains is questionable. And with the crit issue of vehicles, this becomes almost rhetoric. I know you said with mechs, so this isn't trying to twist you answer.
The question for the cost of clan tech does have a question that should have been answered before saying it was too much. How much did it cost to bring SL tech back?
It isn't like every factory ever built was able to make it in the first place, and given the story line, most places that did, died in the 1st and 2nd war. Given the extra advantages with clan tech, the cost is not an issue. More range and stopping power is always the end result you want. Even the lighter normal weapons is wanted, as an extra heat sink or two could well be the difference between victory and defeat.
And why build it instead of buying it?
Relying on someone else to make your weapons of war isn't smart. There is another question that comes up. How is it cheaper to buy those weapons then make it yourself? There is always some sort of mark up in price.
I know that is something to ask the developers....
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