Requiem
01/20/22 04:11 PM
101.185.96.199
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Cray’s Post dated 10/14/21 06:21AM
Located General: QUESTION: The Effects of Economic Isolation on Clan Territories
Quote:
The First and Second Succession Wars:
1. Wrecked tens of thousands of JumpShips, crippling interstellar trade
2. Killed hundreds of planets off the map with loss of trade
The dearth of JumpShips in the Inner Sphere is a key aspect of 3025-era gaming, something discussed at length in 1980s products like the House Sourcebooks and DropShips & JumpShips. There simply aren't enough JumpShips for "highly integrated worlds." Worlds that were dependent on interstellar trade died off in the Succession Wars.
The important remaining interstellar trade were vital, small quantity goods like 'Mech parts. Otherwise, planets mostly stood alone.
with this one post the entire paradigm of the BattleTech Universe shifts making ALL OF THE HISTORY end of the Second Succession Wars onwards unviable!
Think it through - ALL worlds ( with the exception of very rare few) are self sufficient for everything except for high tech exclusive / high end products made on only one world.
As this changes ALL military technology available on every world as to their conventional military forces available!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/20/22 09:33 PM
45.51.181.83
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And yet the game continues to have worlds that require shipments of food, water and medications. Worlds that have NOT be invaded or raided in recent history.
The entire aspect of mercs hiring jumpships to travel around the IS shows a large hole in the canon views. It is more likely periphery realms like the TC have a better jumpship network then even house Steiner. The TC produces their own jumpships, and given the average, should have more then enough to do military and commercial. The MoC has jumpship making facilities, but if I recall right, it is only a scout jumpship. Enough to keep some trade going on.
It does appear that the concept of worlds being brought to not producing enough to be self sufficient in recent times is missing from Cray's post. Water Purifiers are prime targets for raids, as they force the enemy to divert military transport to help those worlds. They also force garrisons to have troops stationed at those plants as well.
History in the House Davion says there is a festival where they land a dropship of food, and the locals rush it, as they had long ago, due to food shortages.
Look in the books for those worlds called bread basket worlds. They ship the excess food to other worlds and help support them.
It also seems time frame is missing here. How many of the 'self sufficient' worlds grew to the point they could no longer feed their people, and started trading operations with other worlds? I really haven't heard much about population control on any world. Other the ethnic style cleansing.
And a big hint for this topic. Hesperus has non Defiance work force living on world. Mainly the families of the workers. So transporting people elsewhere is a complete bust.
Building jumpships will never be on all worlds. Space station building won't either. High tech information like building fusion plants is yet another tech that will not be on all worlds. Repairing equipment is not the same and building it.
This is shown in the fact that parts are shipped in to repair some equipment. Jury rigging is not the same as making the unit from scratch. It is putting in parts that MIGHT work. Much like the dangerous old practice of putting a penny in a fuse box. It is highly stupid.
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Karagin
01/20/22 10:20 PM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
This does tie into the discussion that the amount of dropships and jumpships is too low to sustain the IS as it needs more just to keep up with some of the major worlds, much less the minor ones, and have some left over for non scheduled runs, such as taking mercs to a specific system. Government transports would not be used, as they are needed by the government, as well as carrying extra supplies to worlds they own. This does NOT cover newly acquired worlds either.
So a good example would be the 4th war. How many of them were damaged to the point of needing supplies imported in order to just survive? This may well have been added into the reason why the FS went into the depression. I doubt it, as things like this are overlooked unless it fits with the next scenario.
And yes. I know this distracts from having fun stomping each other in giant robots.
The background is interesting enough even with the issues, thus it does tie to the robots bashing each other. So seeing way to make it better is always good. Now you did hit a good point, there should be more ships, both JS and DS. Common attrition rates alone would show that new ones would still be needed to replace the failing ones. Even with it being hard to make new ones, they should still be built and the companies making them should be in the same standing as everyone's favorite telecom company ComStar.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/20/22 11:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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The book jumpships and dropships says the rate of building jumpships is about equal to the attrition of jumpships lost. Dropships were not mentioned if they were doing the same or not, though I do believe they were starting to build more then was lost. This would be commercial dropships making the numbers grow, with military ships being the question. As you don't need to ship out all dropships from a system, they would be less likely to have to deal with military action.
Pirates hitting them is entirely different.
The commercial dropships could be used in system without an issue. Basically moving things between any sort of outpost. This includes but not limited to worlds, asteroids, moon, and such.
But the video games has jumpships just waiting at jump points to take on the mercs as soon as they are ready. The novels have jumpships joining mercs at a pretty far rate as well. Independent jumpships seem to be pretty common as well.
So even 3000 spread around the IS still seems far below what the game implies. Hesperus would be a parking lot most of the time. They make things other then mechs, including munitions. It is doubtful that they ship dropships full of product out. Too many need things by a certain date, and trying to fill a dropship headed for any destination is highly unlikely.
Now if there is a specific location they ship to, say instead of your house, they send it to your local store/post office, then you would have the dropships filled more.
Another issue is the Merchant dropship being the most common. 2 dropships per jump. This might mean someone trying to get to one location might have to jump into 3 other systems before finding a jumpship going where they need to go. Much like Comstars HPG network is said to work. Major stations send messages to the 'local' stations near it.
With other companies, a full dropship is even less likely, depending on the type and situation.
This may well be why Behemoths and Mammoths aren't so numerous. Local demand might only fill half the Mammoth, as the supplies need to be gathered from multiple systems.
But plot armor ignores all facts and numbers. If they want to starve a world, like in the civil war, then it will happen. Which is yet another example of worlds having to ship in necessities.
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Karagin
01/21/22 01:02 AM
70.118.172.64
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For me the video games based on the TableTop Universe are crap. Not a single one has actually stuck to canon, not a single one has followed how mechs work or are built in the TableTop game, so I dismiss EVERYTHING from the video games until they bring it over and FIX the issues.
Also not impressed with how both FASA/FANPRO said we would not see weapons from the MechWarrior computer games in the TableTop and the asinine Bombast Laser silliness crosses over. The video games are FSP first and foremost, then they try to port a story over that and fail badly at doing so.
Are some Jumpships waiting at the jump points? Sure, since incoming ships would need time to recharge and drop their cargo of Dropships and pick up a new batch, that would take time, but sitting there totally empty just waiting for a merc unit to come along no sorry that won't happen.
Also don't forget, smaller craft are flying around the systems, they can carry cargo as well, so not everything is moving in-system via dropship, larger cargos yes, smaller ones most likely not.
It would be cool to have seen a Merchant Guild or Union, that worked similar to ComStar controlling the Jumpships in the Inner Sphere after the Star League collapsed and the SLDF went off on their quest to enlightenment and Uplifting. I think that would have added another wrinkle for the Hosue Lords to contend with and I could see the Lyrans and others doing all they could to either absorb them or break them, kind of like how Davion and ComStar were at each other's throats.
Plot armor can only be used so much before folks get tired of it and move on to other things. Kind of like how Star Wars has gotten.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
01/21/22 11:49 AM
45.51.181.83
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Plot armor tends to screw with back ground story and history of a lot of games. Defeat this top evil opponent, and yet the next one is more powerful and you have never heard of them until they explode across the scene. Then the bigger badder weapons come out, only to not work when the survivors get it.
The biggest issue I have had with the video games is the 'shielding' that comes with the FPS. For the story line, a few seemed to be pretty accurate, though still had some rough edges.
The big question to jumpships sitting at a jump point comes from how do people contact them to hire them? I haven't heard of some hiring facility, even Comstar doesn't have anything to do with taking requests for them. Most independent jumpships seem to be run from the ship. Given the implied story, how do you make contact with them to hire them? Many traders don't seem to have a set route, and even if they do, timing changes are required to help avoid pirate attacks.
Not trying to sound nasty, but is there anywhere in any of the books that deals with this situation?
I don't remember where it was said, but there was a story that an independent jumpship captain was waiting for others to hire them to fill up his jumpship collars, trying to gain some more income. And jumpships can move cargo without dropships as well. They do have storage, so smaller batches can be sent out on shuttle and moved to the jumpship.
The idea of having a central location to contact has merit, as this would allow easier planning going on. Comstar has some intel on this, as they are the ones running the IS banking system. But as you said, it would be a major issue if someone were to get into the data banks, and could see major invasions before they happened, ie 20 jumpships moving to a world where a Sword of Light regiment is stationed at. They may well know the ultimate destination as well, given that data would have to be known as well.
This would be from looking for things to pick up in that system.
Going back to the logistics, it appears most worlds do not make parts for their purifiers. I believe the service contracts are probably set up to avoid people from getting into them and learning how to build them themselves. Which follows real world practices.
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Karagin
01/21/22 01:12 PM
70.118.172.64
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I am sure there is something at the local drop-port or station that allows one to send INTER-SYSTEM messages, (want to be clear, these wouldn't be HPG messages, so one is not confused), to the jumpships at the two jump points, or there could be courier ships that ferry things like that out to the ships.
Also one of the shipping companies might have a way of getting ahold of the ships. ComStar would deliver the message, but it would not be done via the HPG unless it's going out of the system.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/21/22 01:16 PM
70.118.172.64
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I am sure that some companies follow the "if seal is broken warranty is void" line of think, and really those labels don't stop folks from opening things up. Look at a certain country in Asia that makes knock cars, computers, games, toys, clothing, right down to the flaws or makes the knockoff BETTER because they are working from a finished product.
Pretty sure some planets, keep a few items in warranty so they get updated and then they copy the updates. After all the entire Inner Sphere and Clans ALL use the same weapons tech. Remember a Large Laser made by Maxell is not any different than one made by Ceres Arms, not is table top games, now in the RPG you could add in how one is preferred over the other because one has better tuning lenes for the beams etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
01/21/22 02:11 PM
101.185.96.199
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Quote:
Pretty sure some planets, keep a few items in warranty so they get updated and then they copy the updates.
As per Crays post informing that all countries are capable of economic self determination (for the most part).
Each world is now “That Certain country in Asia that makes knock offs”!
Each House Lord provides every world with the blueprints once they reach a certain level of economic development – thus every world as long as they have the minerals they also have the ability to manufacture EVERYTHING in the Battletech Universe – ie they can make Space-Stations, Jumpships, Warships, Mechs, Aerospace Fighters and every conventional weapon system – they can also manufacture every electronic system.
This is the entire point of interdependency! Being that - being within the guild of a particular House equates to access to EVERY piece of Tech available within that house as long as the resources and people are there to manufacture them. Education materials can easily be transported to establish new Universities …. Franchises of Companies can be established from one world to another – just the same as they are now with regards to multinationals establishing new corps in the third worlds ….
Thus every House needs individual quirks as to their tech Vs other houses!
Extrapolating this – EVERY WORLD has the ability to create VAST conventional forces!
Thus making a mockery to clan forces invasion (for example) by turning the majority of worlds into attrition warfare!
As at this stage every world will have a copy of General Heinz Guderian’s Achtung – Panzer! On the application of motorized warfare and also understand Marshal Albert Kesselring’s defence of central Italy.
Thus with this statement every world now required an extremely detailed bio in order to determine their forces / point of economic development / population … etc.
Thus, when it comes to planetary invasions you will now need fleets to transport militaries in the hundreds of Regiments if you want to invade highly technological worlds with high populations!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
01/21/22 03:27 PM
45.51.181.83
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Each house will never supply all the blueprints to everything they can build. That makes it easier for foreign governments to acquire the tech. This is also why every world does NOT have a mech factory, ship yard and such.
A vast army of conventional forces will not be high tech on a majority of the worlds. Vehicles would be limited to ICE style, as Fusion engine construction will not be allowed on all worlds. Both big business and even the government won't allow it. Making worlds rely on others for survival is necessary to keep the big states together.
Also defining vast is necessary. You will NOT have a world of 10 million have a standing army of 2 million or more. Just not going to happen. A world of 2 billion might.
The ability to make some high tech equipment, as well as legal protections, is why worlds will not even try to copy tech that is copyrighted/patented. This is why high tech isn't spread around Terra now. What happens to entities that start building a nuke? Governments destroy them as much and as fast as possible. Even if just buying the uranium for making an energy plant, this is still something that gets those involved jailed. Finding them is a problem at times, but a full colony is NOT going to support having the government come in and shut it all down.
Given the games story line, it would not be surprising if the company that owns the patent on say a water purifier, does not have a team raid a world that they did steal the design and start producing it on their own.
Again, the game was not meant to be an endever into economics. But there should be a more realistic number of things to allow the background to exist without falling flat on their face. If the jumpship issue was this bad, then a single strike into a nation would remove all abilities to respond to attacks after a short period of time. Even just occupying them for a while would disrupt a nation. The raids to disable them for a while would have a larger impact on the IS then it does.
And with this thought, ship yards would be better defended the most, if not all worlds in a nation. So this would change the focus of the game from ground combat to space operations. Something that is not desired by most players of the game. A few would, but then they should be playing something else.
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Cray
01/21/22 04:10 PM
71.47.208.18
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Quote:
And yet the game continues to have worlds that require shipments of food, water and medications. Worlds that have NOT be invaded or raided in recent history.
Check A Time of War p. 366-374. Food shipments are primarily luxuries because there are not enough JumpShips to keep entire planets fed. 1 billion people need 1 million tons of food per day, which isn't something that can be accomplished with Mules and Merchants.
Quote:
The entire aspect of mercs hiring jumpships to travel around the IS shows a large hole in the canon views.
Not really. Military forces are one of the few things worth shipping between stars.
Quote:
It is more likely periphery realms like the TC have a better jumpship network then even house Steiner.
No. Steiner produces far more JumpShips than any Periphery state.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
01/21/22 09:32 PM
45.51.181.83
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How is it that worlds start having starvation on them, when shipments are interrupted? Well besides plot armor?
But it has been stated many times that the number of ships does not allow for large amounts of worlds to import food, so at least that is consistent.
The production of ships from the LC is not all for the LC. Even the FS/FC had LC ships being sold to other nations. So the numbers is part of barely keeping up with those ships lost.
I have seen that a lot of statements seem to leave the periphery out of it. Given this, it would appear the TC would have close to enough jumpships to do more then just military and emergency transportation of things. It is possible the information or assumption of leaving the periphery out of the facts is wrong, or based on false information. If there is an area where they say otherwise, I would like to know.
With the idea of shipping military being more profitable, that doesn't sound right. Jumpships are pretty solid in their prices for moving ships. It is possible that they get a bonus from the houses to prioritize their military over the 'luxury' items. Dropship captains probably make more with military items then other stuff. So a Merchant jumpship getting ready to jump to system A, has a single military ship asking for passage to system B. would not turn down a pair of dropships that are going where it was heading. According to the books it doesn't really matter the size of the ship, though I would suspect a Behemoth would be charged for 2 berths.
This is even more of an issue if the military ship was heading for a world that is known for not having exports that use independent jump ships.
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LordRuthermore
04/29/22 07:22 AM
87.139.207.25
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Hesperus II is basically the only Canon world left in the IS that needs to import a lot of its basic food. All other worlds that really needed that died off after the fall of the Star League. Excluding mining colonies with small population numbers, all worlds with normal civilian population will be able to feed themselves without imports.
Regarding transporting people in Dropships, apart from actual refits for passenger space, there are rules for transporting people as 'cargo'. You need more supplies (life support, etc), but for short hops it might not make a big difference.
Essentially all surviving worlds are basically self-sufficient for their basic needs, at least to a given extent measured by their USILR ratings.
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ghostrider
04/29/22 04:37 PM
45.51.181.83
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If you read some of the novels, more then a few worlds started suffering from food shortages when Katherine 'diverted' food shipments in the Draconis March.
There is also talks of targeting bread basket worlds in regions to cause suffering in areas. This is one of the reasons for taking worlds that only really offer exports of food.
So the idea that each world is self sufficient in food is contradicted by the fluff done up in the game.
No where does it say any world is self sufficient that I know of. They all seem to require some basic items, wether food, water, ores, or something like that. If smart, they have some reserves to get them by for a few months, but that isn't always possible.
I don't have the newer books, which may have the self sufficiency levels in them.
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Requiem
04/29/22 06:10 PM
101.185.105.200
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Apocryphal – of doubtful authenticity, although widely circulated as being true.
Spurious – not being what it purports to be; false or fake.
On the one hand it is written (within novels) worlds can suffer from food shortages and on the other hand it is stated (Cray, above) that the remaining interstellar trade consisted of small quantity goods – ‘Mech Parts, Military Units, and those considered luxury (exclusive) items within their economy and the wealthy and those retirees who have saved for this one voyage in their life-time.
These two statements are incompatible. Either there is a massive interstellar trade requiring vast fleets to feed worlds that are incapable of feeding themselves, thus for the exclusive use of people and the military or interstellar trade is restricted for the exclusive use of the nobility and the military.
So which is it? As the ramifications of this will determine the paradigm of the Universe and the TO&E of the military – the answer to this one question creates a snow-ball effect that will change everything!
Quote:
If smart, they have some reserves to get them by for a few months, but that isn't always possible.
Concept: Strategic Reserves – which has been in existence from how far back into BC when hunter gatherers began farming?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_reserve#:~:text="Strategic%20reserve%20is%20a%20volume,meet%20short%2Dterm%20demand."
Which is now dependent upon logistics, transport, warehousing (including storage control mechanisms), the concept of spoilage duration and the bureaucracy - political policies.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/29/22 07:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is a large amount of commercial dropships and jumpships in the IS. How many times have you heard of conxcription and even out right hijacking civillian ships in the game?
Yet, how many do you really need when shipping luxury items to other worlds?
Military transports are the same in real life as they are in the game. They have to have a transport visit each location once in a while, so that should be covered.
A vast trading network, and one that barely covers what is needed is a point that needs to be explained.
Some worlds get over a dozen jumpships in the jump points a month, maybe even a week. The capitals of the nations being one such location, while things like Hesperus would be another. As the Merchant jumpship is the most numerous during the 3025 era, that means 2 dropships per ship max. As Behemoths and Mammoths are not that numerous, smaller ships are used.
For some locations, water has to be imported, as there is little to no water near the location to even try to purify. Large mining asteroids come to mind here for an example. This also normally includes food. For Defiance, ships are sent out with peoples orders, and not always full. If smart, they had warehouses located in strategic systems, but that does lead to raids on those places.
Speaking of which, how many dropships, jumpships and stations does Defiance actually own and use? Ships coming back from sales would be bringing in things like the food needed for their people, but they are still commercial ships.
The worlds that died from isolation were those deemed unworthy to waste the precious resources to continue to maintain. Those resources were needed elsewhere.
Now for pirates. They seem to hit a lot of merchant ships, which makes you wonder why one would keep sending luxury goods to the worlds they constantly get hit at. If most of the ships were military, then pirates would have to be better armed then what most consider pirates to be. Military should ALWAYS have a decent escort with them, meaning a pirate jumpship would be targeted to avoid future issues, once they are made to be a pirate ship. Sooner or later, no independent pirate force would be able to leave a system.
But the subject right now is sufficiency for worlds. If all were self sufficient, then trading would not have been so necessary. Raids were done to remove necessities, which also meant food, water and other things. You can't grow crops if you don't have the seeds to plant after the fields are burned yet again. Yet seeds are not luxury items, last I knew of. Each world screaming for necessities means one more ship the military can't use to bring in troops to attack, least you have revolts form all over your territories.
And once again, the worlds deemed bread baskets would not exist if all had the necessary food levels.
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Requiem
04/30/22 02:58 AM
101.185.105.200
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Issue: Number of jump-ships / Drop-ships and their respective class
As discussed in many previous forums there is a lack of quantifiable information concerning …
Numbers for each class.
Numbers assigned to a specific geographic area.
Logistical requirements for each world within this geographic area – and how this is currently achieved given the vastly small holds within the majority of dropships when considering the vast number of people on any given world.
Hub and Spoke arrangement as to the disposition of goods (as well as what type of goods) from a central hum to that of the spoke worlds that require goods.
i.e. a complete breakdown as the transport / logistical requirements for every house / periphery state world.
Also, how these requirements can change over time due to new technologies / education that allow an individual world to progress from being non-self-sufficient to that of being self-sufficient.
i.e. new agricultural equipment and expertise can (over time) turn a worlds production numbers around making it self-sufficient … give a man a meal and give a man a fishing pole argument.
Without a highly detailed quantifiable spreadsheet indicating each worlds requirements and how they are currently being supplied at a specific point in time, everything can be spurious. There currently is no information that can be used to prove the veracity of an argument one way or the other.
Do we know how many worlds require water and do we know how many litres / gallons are required given a certain population level at a certain time period? and do we know how this will change over time? – do we need more or less water dropships (and by extension jump-ships) within a certain period of time less the planet’s population begins to suffer from a lack of water?
Unfortunately, without this it is all speculation.
As for pirates – just as Dillinger stated as to why he robs banks, the same can be said of pirates.
They must travel to where the loot is located to conduct their piracy, otherwise they could be sitting a jump point for an undeterminable time-period waiting for a mark to arrive.
As for transport ships – this is why governments assign fighters, and why mercenary pilots exist.
Quote:
If all were self-sufficient, then trading would not have been so necessary.
Disagree, there will always be a need for …
Luxury goods
People requiring transport – lord of the manner, retirees, soldiers, educators etc.
Technology and education requiring transport – increase base technology / education of world to that of a more advanced world …
Military units, vehicles, consumables requiring transport
Taxation and legal inspectors etc.
Quote:
Raids
As long as it fits the definition of a legitimate military target – otherwise it will be considered a war crime.
Remember the destruction of civilian targets is a war crime!
And ending up in a tit for tat prolonged strikes is the same as being the only one eyed man in the land of the blind.
Quote:
bread-basket worlds
Consider the number of worlds whose population are in the billions – who are these worlds able to feed such a vast amount of people? Do they even have surplus for export? Will this change over time?
Again, more information required than supplied to make this determination.
Until this information is supplied it is once again at the purview of GM to make this determination.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/30/22 11:39 AM
45.51.181.83
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The implication of a lack of ships, yet their own stories have shortages around the IS creates the issue. The problem with making out the whole fleet listings leads to more problems then it creates.
Dedicated route ships are the only ones that would continue in the same area for any real length of time. From the stories, almost all independent merchant ships go where the next customer pays them to. So they could well end up in the periphery or another nation. Having everything listed just means it is that much easier to 'shut down' a particular region. It also opens up the developers to seeing just how few ships they say there is, and how that doesn't begin to work.
As stated before, a conga line of Behemoths isn't enough to keep a well populated world in water, so having a single purifier destroyed on a world changes the whole thing.
This creates the situation that capturing enemy jumpships is that much more important. One ship could well throw an entire entity, such as the Draconis March, or Dieron District into complete chaos. And I mean capture, as destroying the ship would violate the destruction rule.
Now here is a point. When Theodore Kurita was launching his counter attack into the LC during the 4th war, he lost a few jumpships to the commando attack. Nothing was said about how that affected the DC other then having to call off the counter attack. Most were recovered, but the time length is the key here.
As it is stated that the FS economy collapsed after the 4th war, this does tell of other things besides luxuries being moved in large numbers.
As stated, trading would not be needed. It would still have it's uses, as some items can not be produced on certain worlds. Trading could very well mean nothing more then shipping purchased items to a world, unlike traders having stock when the show up unannounced. They sell what then can, buy more, and move on. This is back up by the stories that include jumpships and dropships.
Remember. You have to capture the criminal in order to punish them for the crime. Stealing is a crime. It doesn't stop people from doing it. Bounties, and kill on sight orders happen a lot in the game, as well as framing others.
This discussion is not about GMs in home games. This is about the canon universe not keeping to its OWN views. Gms can have Star Destroyers and Kilrathi invading the IS, as well as the Borg. Some things remove you from Battletech, and put you into a hybrid game.
The canon version implies some worlds need food and water imports, yet it suggests this isn't so.
SItuational issues, like a major drought or a raid burning local food stores will always show need for imports. But to suggest that food shipments isn't standard is like saying a ppc doesn't need power to fire, but your vehicle needs amps to power it.
So this is understood. This discussion is NOT about home games, but canon consistency.
Edited by ghostrider (04/30/22 11:40 AM)
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Requiem
04/30/22 06:25 PM
101.185.105.200
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Quote:
So they could well end up in the periphery or another nation.
Two problems with this:-
1. it should be against the law (due to reason 2)
2. Yes I agree with you, With the destruction of the FC how much did Victor have to pay for the return of his Jump-Ship fleet? Same principle just on a small scale – Lure a Jump-ship over the border, board and capture it, then ransom it back or re-crew it for your own state.
You could, therefore, have a state sponsored jump-ship capture program.
As the only law re. jump-ships is that they are not a target for destruction on the battlefield – it does not say that you can’t “acquire” them through other means.
As jump-ships are ‘so valuable’ (due to their scarcity), thus in all reality there should be jump-ship boundaries – this far and no further. If cargo is to be sent into the Periphery there should therefore be a handover from a Great House Jump-ship organisation to a Periphery Jump-ship organisation.
Also if we all agree that jump-ships are in such scarce supply this will further the cause for “all worlds are now self-sufficient”, as there are no large fleets to supply planets for any modest population.
Each world must therefore be self-sufficient! as jump-ships are only used for small volume / high price goods.
QED.
Quote:
As stated, trading would not be needed.
This is where I must disagree … as the first successor state to use trade, technology and education correctly will be the winner.
Let me explain …
What is the goal of the game? To become first lord of the new Star League by conquering all your neighbours.
How can this be done? Very easily, as stated many times establish a state sponsored franchise system within your house to transfer education to appropriate worlds to create a viable employment base for your corporations who then use a franchise system to transfer important organisations from one world to the next.
What this gives your house (over a shorter time frame) is a vast military industrial complex that is now on more worlds as well as a vast ship manufacturing complex on more worlds.
Thus, creating a house military that can increase in size quicker than any of its competitors.
Thus overwhelm any competing house with a vastly superior military (in size alone) that also has access to a superior Logistical chain network.
Quote:
This discussion is not about GMs in home games.
Then how do you make a ruling based upon very limited and sketchy information if the game progresses in such a direction?
Someone must decide when the information is not supplied by canon to keep the logic of the game going …
If jump-ships are so scarce …
If you do not have access to a Jump-ship how long is your mercenary unit going to stuck on a world before one agrees to transport you where you want to go next if your new employer also does not have access to a jump-ship?
A Planetary wide drought? With one government on the world wouldn’t it be easier to create a local transport system to move it from where it is to where it needs to be?
Also if the world is so lacking in water wouldn’t this also mean that the world has a low population as it is unable to feed any sizable population? Ie. it lacks wealth – no real access to jump-ships.
Burning all storage facilities on an entire world – there could be hundreds of large silos scattered over the world.
If the jump-ships are not there, then the regular food shipments are not there.
And yes the game is about canon consistency – sometimes the GM must make a call to keep that consistency.
And yet remember there are times when science can be brought in to justify a reason as to what is / is not going on.
A GM could decide …
World uses electricity for everything as the world’s atmosphere was man-made – available crops are not in sufficient quantities to both feed all the people and at the same time manufacture a vast supply of fuel derivative for all the vehicles on the planet could be considered a viable scenario that is not beyond the realm of possibility.
It is just early on in the development of the world the government made the call – all electric due to their unique circumstances. And as such was never changed over time as the planet is now pro-environment due to all the years it required of the people to get the would looking as it does now.
Thus yes you car needs amps and also you PPC, also your military could also use all energy weapons (including your infantry) as this is just how the people see the national policy of energy first.
It enables for a unique view to a new world – ie. no fuel engines allowed could put a crimp on any military.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/30/22 09:42 PM
45.51.181.83
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There would be no trading across borders if you make it completely illegal. There is a lot of trading done from stories and such in the game. With the limit you could not buy anything from another realm, meaning Defiance would lose 4/5th of their business.
The merchant traders are somewhat 'protected' by unwritten rules that in implied Comstar backs. Independent merchant ships are off limits to things like boarding them outside of wartime. It is in Comstar's best interest to enforce this, as it allows them to move agents throughout the IS. The alternative is having a Comstar jumpship and dropship show up to move those agents. It also allows for them to broker trade deals between realms.
Also, how would mercs without their own jumpships move around? Other then normal traders, Comstar would be the only alternative, and they will not allow most mercs near their jumpships.
Why do you think jumpships were targeted in the 1st and 2nd succession wars? To prevent the enemy from having ships to invade/counter attack. You lock all their forces on worlds, and slowly pick them apart. As for trading and economic might? The CC would have been destroyed before the 3rd war, and the Lyrans would probably control a large chunk of the DC, providing Comstar did not interfer. The fact is, a precise strike, especially like in the future where the DC basically owns the FS, they could well remove the FS by securing and moving their jumpship facilities into the DC. No possibility to making jumpships means very limited options for future comebacks.
The way you make decisions is the way you make decisions in other games. Each GM deals with it, without telling the rest of the universe this is the only way it can be done. Each GM will have their own version of what is going on. For the most part, if you want your game to be usable to all, it has to pretty much stick close to canon.
This part of the discussion was to find out why there is such a huge difference in the implied amount of trade. If it was all luxury items, then it wouldn't effect the states like it is suggested it does. Military shipments are a bit different. Which would mean any attacks would be against government ships, not privately owned.
Stranding mercs is a favored tactic for houses. Some moreso then others. The fact that you can hire ships shows that trade is more then just government moving things.
The drought idea is set on worlds that don't have large water fresh water reserves. Some worlds are not one government either. Border worlds will have multi nations controlling areas, while others use water tanks to supply water. If one shipment is missed, drought is the first step.
If the world has supplies for say a month in reserve, burning even one silo means that is cut short. It may well be that the loss of fields will cause food shortages for the world, especially if they can only be grown in specific areas, such as hydroponic farms. If one or more is destroyed, or even damaged, that could very well lead to the world having food shortages. Sieges will further reduce food supplies.
There are worlds in the game that ICEs would not be permitted. Mainly habitats and domed cities. Air purifiers would be necessary to keep the air clean. And you can run ICEs without air. Oxydizers in the fuel is possible. Look at the Neptune sub in TRO 3026. They claim hydrogen peroxied is used for fuel.
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Requiem
05/01/22 11:15 AM
101.185.105.200
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Quote:
There would be no trading across borders if you make it completely illegal.
Only those who have a jump-ship business with permits for both side of the border
… can be considered to transport – remainder illegal to do so?
As for Defiance they would still require a sale of military goods permit from the Steiner Government to allow for the sale of goods over the border. It is not as if all businesses have free trade to do whatever they want.
How is ComStar going to know who has the Jump-ship if it has a new beacon and has been sent far away from where it came from? And are they willing to go to the mat over a missing Jump-ship?
Quote:
Why do you think jumpships were targeted in the 1st and 2nd succession wars? To prevent the enemy from having ships to invade/counter attack. You lock all their forces on worlds, and slowly pick them apart.
Consequently by 3rd succession war – minimal Jump-ships – hence all worlds must be self sufficient or will be required to transport population to a new world that is.
The as the quantity of Jump-ships varies etc this has a consequence, as the entire history shifts violently and Canon history can no longer be considered to be the same if you accept the premise of canon jump-ship numbers will vary.
Quote:
if you want your game to be usable to all, it has to pretty much stick close to canon.
Disagree – as long as the game is understandable by those playing it at the same time then it can be anything the Group wants it to be – new history, new technology, worlds can change to whatever you want them to be.
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Which would mean any attacks would be against government ships, not privately owned.
Unless you are the fox who utilized alternative strategies to win
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don't have large water fresh water reserves.
Equates to a low population as there are no Jump-ships in quantity to support a vast population requiring water.
Quote:
Border worlds will have multi nations controlling areas,
Then the have nots will raid / start a war against the haves – as everything needs water to survive.
Quote:
burning even one silo means that is cut short.
And if this world has 1,000,000 silos and a large population – one silo is not all that much – comes down to proportional amount to the whole.
If you want to fight using food as a weapon this is your prerogative – however do not expect me to go down that path – plus how is your rep going to change if you adopt this tactic – will anyone want to have anything to deal with you after using this in war?
Quote:
hydrogen peroxide is used for fuel.
Enjoy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4JbwESXISs
Rocket Fuel The Science of Hydrogen Peroxide with Steve Spangler on 9News
So are Jump troopers using Hydrogen Peroxide whist jumping to attack mechs etc?
As for history where DC owns mode of FS – sorry but I have now given up on cannon as virtually every bit of history I have researched has mistakes that I consider to be cringe worthy and I have finally given up – time to write my own
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/01/22 05:40 PM
45.51.181.83
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Permits on both sides of the border doesn't work as well as you would think. Black market ships will have access to things law abiding merchants don't. But there are always ways around things like this. The issue is anyone not established with not get any sort of clearance. And this does not cover those using unihabited systems. Yes, this is very dangerous, but for some, they will risk it.
Also, this removes a lot of mobility for spies going across the border. The black box would not be risked by an agent on the ground. It may be onboard a dropship or jumpship, but even that would be unlikely if they are not 'authorized' to be across the border.
All ships that do go across the border with be inspected to make sure they are not carrying agents or illegal goods.
The aspect I was talking about is if you want to play in another groups game or have someone new come in, the game has to have a large basis similar to canon. Dropping someone into the 4th war, for example, means they need to know what is owned by who. It may take hours to even go over information to see what is different.
Do you believe that Comstar doesn't keep track of ships used by all nations? You can fake them out for a short time, but they will eventually figure out what ship is where. That is especially true if someone uses the HPG network.
If there are no merchant jumpships, then there is no alternative methods of hitting supplies. They would all be government owned ships.
Low populations does not meant the facilities don't need water. Being in need of something like copper, might well mean a mining ship being used to asteroid mine it. Those ships will not have huge amounts of water reserves, and probably require constant supplies. One missed run or having a tank get destroyed will force someone to divert another ship to cover it or risk losing the operations. Even a space station can have these issues at a jump point.
This conversation is what canon has done, not personal methods of combat. This is where conversations start going wrong. Simply causing hardship for a community, means your enemy has to divert forces to deal with it, or risk rebellion and even losing the community. Not every raid is against military targets.
The hydrogen peroxide was not meant for jump fuel, but as an alternative to gas in an ICE that requires the air to remain clean. You could run one outside of a dome to provide power, yet not have to worry about oxygen to combust.
Seems like the context of the sentences is being ignored again.
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Requiem
05/01/22 07:20 PM
101.185.105.200
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Illegal activities go hand in hand with legal – there is always someone who desires the rare as well as the product that everyone says you are not allowed to have – tell someone they are not allowed to have something or say it is only for the exclusive few, then just sit back and watch the desire multiply.
There will, therefore, always be a someone who is willing to facilitate the transaction.
As for someone new – it is the same as D&D – you spend time with that person and explain it all before hand so that you know they will be a good fit and that they know what they are getting into – thus they are more likely to stick around for a long time if there are no surprises.
As for ComStar – would they assist in the retrieval process, or would they use that information to their benefit? … ComStar First Policy?
Jump-ships, be they government or privately owned – how they are used, their numbers etc will affect the backdrop of the game and will affect how worlds interreact with one another and how the darker side of the game operates (if you want to go down this rabbit hole) and how the military operates … for me I desire a more sci-fi atmosphere … hence the more, hence the increased technology quicker … what I do not appreciate is a universe that creates holes and never gets around to fixing them … that creates a narrative that does not make sense – that says to me no I am not allowed to retrofit this that and the other just because some one else says I am not allowed to do it, when in all reality it makes absolute sense to do so and I have historical precedence to back up my reason.
Thus, yes, I have decided to go it alone … to create my universe as I see it, to give me and those like me joy in a vast military operatic journey that requires one game progressing from one to the next and required multiple groups to achieve the goal.
Canon is but one aspect to a piece of art, it does not have to be the only aspect. People should not be confined to what society expects of them, locked in a box and told to stay put as this is what you should be and you are never allowed to change.
For me the game should be personal it should be allowed to change to allow whoever is on the journey to find the best journey they desire, just as you can in D&D, it does not limit the horizon it expands the horizon.
As for ‘not every raid is against military targets’, this is where your unit is moving into the world of illegal Black Ops – remember there are rules as to a military target, and once crossed if your unit is outed for conducting such an action the repercussions must also be considered.
Quote:
The hydrogen peroxide was not meant for jump fuel, but as an alternative to gas in an ICE
Can be both.
Living in a dome comes with it its own problems – such as living on a space station or on the lunar surface for example. The problem resides around combustion – OH&S within an enclosed environment would suggest minimising the chance of such an occurrence – thus maintaining vast quantities of a volatile substance should be considered an unnecessary risk that can be minimised with an alternative.
Just as we have OH&S officers within all businesses currently – they should also be around in the future, causing new policies / laws to be established with one aim in minimising the risk to the community.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/01/22 10:52 PM
45.51.181.83
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Comstar would do what they think will help them at the moment. It also doesn't have to be official. Someone trying to make a fast c-bill would sell information on a jumpship when they think they could get away with it. Sometimes, that 'illegal' information is authorized by the first circuit. Help getting it back is entirely different. Unless they have a stake in it, like the cargo was meant for Comstar, the probably not.
Jumpships is part of the economy, which we all agree, wasn't well thought out. The 2000 guestimate in Jumpships and dropships sounds far to low for the entire IS. That would be just one nation, with the CC being the most likely candidate. The numbers seemed to be done so everyone that plays does not suggest they have a fleet of 30 or more. And depending on the ship types, that is what would be needed to move a full RCT. Not everyone has 9 Fortress dropships in their fleet with 3 or more Vengeances. And this does not even cover the support personnel.
It was done so the feel of limited resources was why the SLDF style invasion of the Periphery is not done. When the Helm core was decoded, it would have increased the production ability by some, possibly doubled if no one interfered with production.
The question of why the game suggested they didn't have enough, then saying worlds had starvation and such when sieged yet trade was basically luxury items and military equipment is the issue.
Might be what the elementals use on the outside of stations. I have seen novels suggest they did use their jets, but at a much lower power setting. The mercury solution for mechs doesn't seem to add up.
Volatile substance? Isn't that what dropship fuel is? Well any fuel used to power fighters and such. It is preferrable over expensive fusion reactors for the small companies that need power but don't have the funds. In the long run the fusion engine is cheaper for fuel, but the initial costs are the problem. You can buy more IC fuel as you need it, stretching out the costs over time. But this is getting into the thread topic that was shut down, so enough of this.
The concept that life is cheap in the game suggests that labor can be replaced rather easily. I have always thought experience and skill are not the easy to replace, so you try to keep what you got. Canonwise, this isn't the case. Only the rich suggest they are worth keeping alive, and all else needs to protect them.
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Requiem
05/02/22 12:38 AM
101.185.105.200
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ComStar – yes, they will always act in their own best interests.
Dropships and aerospace fighter – Hydrogen, and yes, it is very flammable if hot handled correctly.
Yet, given the duration of time Hydrogen has been used as a fuel source, within the Inner Sphere you should assume that the risk of an unintentional detonation would be very low.
As for life – life is never cheap and should never be suggested in such a manner or within the BattleTech Universe.
Given that the universe’s governmental system is based upon that of a monarchy it is the duty of the monarch and their lords to safeguard the people, it should never be the same as it was in the dark ages.
This is supposed to be a more enlightened time!
Most Monarchs, you would assume, would take a very dim view of their lords using the people in such a manner – especially when it is policy to educate them and then provide an excellent position so as to advance the overall society of the Great House as quickly as possible via technological advancement / R&D etc – thus making this house the supreme technological house and soon to be Leader of the new Star League.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/02/22 02:41 AM
45.51.181.83
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The fact that most realms have trillions of people in them, the average grunt in the field is not worth much when the ruler considers what the cost will be for victory. So sending 1000 troops to their deaths to just slow down an enemy is considered acceptable to them. Part of why they lost so much to the clans. That is how the game is set up.
Training costs a lot, but talent is hard to come by. And that is where most say the idea of life is cheap is wrong.
With the exception of plot armor, one person normally does not stop an entire army, or wins a world. It takes a force of talent.
I don't agree with throwing away the talent, without a very good reason. But this is also why the 3rd war was basically raidfest. It was less costly to just raid each other then a full out invasion.
The FS seemed to be on track to be the most technologically advanced, behind Comstar. The LC had their tech advancing decently as well. Comstar did interfer with the development of tech that threatened their monopoly on fast coms. The CC looked to be last. But the most advanced tech wasn't going to make one leader become the SL lord. From the way the story goes, no one would be able to regain the title without the others supporting them. Even conquering others didn't look like it would do it.
As for hydrogen, even handled correctly does not remove the issues with it. A strike on the tanks would cause an explosion. Even just causing lines to leak, could well remove a community the ability to have power available. This was how each house developed raids. To hurt the enemy, and some times, in any way possible. The DC and CC were more likely then others to do something dirty, but that did not mean the others wouldn't have.
The inconsistency of the games implied history causes issues. Granted, if they came out and basically rewrote the game from the ground up with the rules set up correctly, like a few games have, it wouldn't be so bad. But you can't have the 'dark ages' feeling, and say things like only a few factories remain. Or jumpships. Someone WILL target them for destruction, as it means only you have the facilities to continue the war. Simple coordinated sabotage would do it, without full destruction of facilities.
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Requiem
05/02/22 09:13 PM
124.184.178.109
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Quote:
The average grunt
So, are we now returning to the Napoleonic Era to that of WW1?
To get the best out of all of your military personnel wouldn’t it be more efficient to “actually demonstrate” a level of respect / protection / justice and for a pay that is adequate for the services rendered?
Quote:
Part of why they lost so much to the clans.
Really? … back down the same rabbit hole were very bad writing and predetermined outcome created on of the most inept stories ever considered …
Quote:
one person normally does not stop an entire army, or wins a world.
And yet both of these actually occurred within the Clan Invasion …
Quote:
why the 3rd war was basically raidfest
And yet what happened to the CC?
Quote:
The FS seemed to be on track to be the most technologically advanced, behind Comstar.
Problem is the socio technological development of the game is non existent and defies all reality – as demonstrated by Helm memory core - the reasons why the IS are not allowed access to clan Tech - and that of Huntress … no real thought was given to the game.
Quote:
A strike on the tanks would cause an explosion.
Any strike on any volatile tank will cause an explosion.
Problem is you require a military reason for the strike – otherwise it is once again a war crime!
Quote:
have the 'dark ages' feeling,
How long is the dark age feeling expected to last? How long will it take before technology actually helps the society of the majority of worlds?
This is the issue – if one leader introduces a policy to assist every worlds education and technology their realm will be able to manufacture at a rate far beyond that of any other – consider the United States during WW2 and consider their ability to outproduce the entire world.
This is the biggest problem with the game – as am I only allowed to stay in the box provided and not venture out?
Thus, I have given up on canon history – time to write my own for me and establish a game that provides an era of greater technological development.
The game as is, in my opinion, has way too many issues (and very bad characters) that I can no longer tolerate and the history as written I can no longer tolerate as being worthy of even reading, it is just that bad!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/03/22 01:16 AM
45.51.181.83
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Most of the soldiers of the IS make more then average commercial wages. So they are paid better then most. The problem is you are expected to die quickly/. The use of weapons that wipe out buildings easily does not leave many wounded. Only fighting other infantry do you really have a chance of just losing a limb. A bit gruesome, but seems accurate.
So what did happen to the CC during the 3rd war? The same thing that happened to the other nations as well. They got raided, and did some raiding. Why? What did I miss?
The SL had superior tech over the periphery, and yet history repeated itself. The tech made a difference only in how fast they killed. It did not really change the fact that hit and runs were effective in reducing their numbers, nor did it stop the assassination style attacks on their forces. The non military civies were killing the SL troopers as well as the military.
The issue with the thought of better tech means you win seems to be at fault here. You have a .50 caliber gun verse the persons .45 caliber gun, isn't a huge difference, though it is better tech. Having cruise missiles while the enemy has single shot muzzle loaders gives you a huge advantage, but only when you don't have to engage in hand to hand.
So the DC and the CC were war criminal nations. They constantly used methods like exploding gas supplies and poisons to conquer worlds, or suppress populations. The other houses did the same thing, but much less often. So how do you punish them? Comstar used the same tactics, and framed the others. So again. How do you punish them?
It isn't like the SL/TH didn't do the same thing. They just hid it better.
Read the context of the paragraphs.
The statement of the U.S. outproducing the worlds isn't based on tech or education. It is based on the fact we had the natural resources to produce things. A lot of countries have to import some resources, and during the war, moving those resources was targeted. No matter how educated your people are, they can not build a tank if they don't have iron to make the parts. To move it, you need fuel. Other resources are needed as well, such as rubber for seals and such.
This is the very thing militaries focus on. Remove the ability of your enemy to make war, and you have an easier time. The war crime issue of say blowing up a supply depot comes up. There was no peace treaty signed during the succession wars, so there was ALWAYS a state of war in effect. Up until the 2nd SL was formed, even the push to send the clans home, didn't stop the war. It only postponed it.
So the example of hitting the fuel supplies. Did that mean the Allies were war criminals for doing so? As they did inflict civilian casualties? We know the Axis did so as well. This is the fact of war. The only way to stop it is to stop creating war. Yet you have to defend yourself from others aggression. This is the history of humanity. And the basis of it all is greed.
And how do you determine who is right? Someone that has been a prisoner of say the CC, has decided they will never be so again. So anything goes when killing them. This could be said for someone that was a prisoner of the FS. I hate the truth of it.
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Karagin
05/03/22 02:21 AM
70.118.172.64
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Everyone has to important certain things, no nation is 100% set to be self-sufficient not unless they are willing to do without certain things. The same would be true of many worlds.
There is an example in the original Periphery Sourcebook about how two worlds not that far apart as far jumps go, each had something the other needed but couldn't get those things to each other and both worlds suffered for it.
This is ONE big reason I didn't buy the whole BS company (or was it party line?) about how the Word was able to pay for and buildup their forces so easily for the bad storyline called the Jihad. However, that's water under the bridge at this point.
Every system ( I really wish Battletech would have stuck with more developed star systems with key worlds vs this world-only approach) will need things from other systems, be it finished goods, or parts to make finished products or food or whatnot. Trade is going to happen and even during a war, you still need trade.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/03/22 01:55 PM
124.184.178.109
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Quote:
no nation is 100% set to be self-sufficient … The same would be true of many worlds
Problem is … as above Cray 01/12/22 04:10 PM Forum Post
Food shipments are primarily luxuries because there are not enough JumpShips to keep entire planets fed.
Military forces are one of the few things worth shipping between stars.
QED - worlds must be very highly self sufficient and any food that is imported is high end luxury goods that will derive a high price and is exclusive for the mega rich and famous.
I would, therefore, assume that it would be difficult to pay for the build-up of multiple mercenary military forces – unless they have access to their own transport.
State forces, however, as they have access to their own transport will be able to move as directed by regional HQ and at the same time will be patched into a logistical chain to enable them to receive consumables et al to keep them in the fight if they are walking into a protracted battle.
Yes, I do agree, that trade is going to occur, however, it is now considered to be extremely limited to high end luxury goods only and that of military due to the extremely limited numbers of JumpShips.
Though I would like to ask when does this change?
My argument is – if a House can transfer education and Franchise its military industrial complex / civilian corporations etc (just as is occurring now – Strategic reasons for firms to transfer world-class production methods and technology to developing countries ... as discussed in such articles as the International Journal of Production Economics.) to developing worlds, multiple worlds should, at a certain point, beginning to establish their own DropShip and JumpShip production facilities, Thus QED at a certain point in time the minimisation hypothesis of JumpShips within the Inner Sphere should be considered a fallacy … we will also need at that point in time production numbers and an overall number of ships within each House (etc.) so as to determine how this changes over time.
Consider looking at Car Manufacturers in Africa by Africans and their alliances with 1st world corporations as an example – manufacturing numbers are low now, though in the future?
German auto majors in Africa include VW, Mercedes-Benz owner Daimler and BMW
https://www.dw.com/en/africa-begins-to-e...owner%20Daimler,in%20South%20Africa%20in%202019.
Question – if infantry incur such high casualty and death rates – what is the cost / care like within the Military Health System for each house?
3rd War – bridge linking the new FC – half of the CC captured (though in all reality the entirety of the CC should have occurred post war of 39) which requires planetary acquisition.
Quote:
The SL had superior tech over the periphery
And yet the RWR and their assistance to all other Periphery States prior to the fall of the SL would suggest that this point is debateable.
The methods of war used will determine how peace is achieved / how long partisans will continue to fight on … despite their government capitulating … which can be used by rival housed to pin down your forces fighting partisans …
Please remember a soldier does not revel in wanton death and destruction …
It also looks bad when independent media produce clips showing wanton death and destruction …
The Laws of War - https://www.icrc.org/en/document/what-ar...f%20war%2C%20or,saving%20lives%20and%20reducing%20suffering.
Just as post WW2 humanitarian laws were established – wouldn’t it be reasonable to expect that post 2nd Succession War rules of war would be adopted – even unofficially so as to appearing to be the good guy when acquisitioning a new world? As a compliant world is easier to govern than a world where the majority of the population wants your forces dead …
So how do you punish war criminals – easy ComStar would interdict the House in question until the war criminal is handed over for trial – such an act would make ComStar wildly popular and would help any recruitment drive.
So when ComStar rides out like knight of old to establish their Blakean Theocracy they would be welcomed as liberators with a positive history …
Quote:
The statement of the U.S. outproducing the world isn’t based on tech or education. It is based on the fact of … natural resources …
Please explain how Trinity was achieved if only natural resources were considered …
Also the production numbers for liberty ships, bombers …. Etc. using Rosie the Riveter (we can do it) without vast technology / education.
Naturan resources only take you so far, technology and education takes you to the next level or why else would so many be undertaking University?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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