Requiem
04/11/22 10:09 PM
1.158.152.223
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Did no one learn anything from WW2 logistics problems from the beaches of Normandy until the capture of the port of Antwerp on 4 Sept. by the 11th Armoured Division with its harbour 90% intact.?
Are we to assume every world within the Inner sphere and beyond has an ample supply of crude oil that can be refined and separated into different liquids and gasses via a distillation column to manufacture petrol and diesel fuel etc
Otherwise, all ICE fuel will have to be imported … and again requiring a vast logistical fleet.
Thus, making all petroleum storage and transport facilities a high target as the absence of such would thus paralyse / restrict movement (via rationing) of all combat ICE vehicles until a fuel source can be adequately sourced – thus effectively keeping any enemy on the backfoot who utilizes ICE.
So would it not be more efficient to swap out all ICE engines for energy engines – once they become efficient to move a vehicle of such high tonnage?
Also, if you do retain ICE engines would not all petroleum refineries become a primary target when conducting a planetary invasion? And ‘as a consequence’ shouldn’t they also have been built in an underground facility safe from aerospace / orbital bombardment (rather than in the above ground tanks that we see that are clearly a very easy stationary target to hit and destroy)?
And once taken you once again put all ICE engine enemy military vehicles in a precarious position for any protracted war.
Also, if you are in the deep periphery wouldn’t it just make sense to have to energy engines to cut down on the amount of storage required for focalised fuel - can use this space for more consumables etc. thus extending your time in the periphery.
Also who thinks we should be able to convert a Boomerang spotter plane into a drone with one shot missile ordinance?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/12/22 12:16 AM
45.51.181.83
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I will agree that not all worlds would have vast reserves of oil.
Now, depending on the time frame, the destruction of a lot of fusion engine manufacturers is why ICEs were so popular.
But there is one thing that seems to be forgotten with this topic. ICEs run off other things besides oil/diesel. Internal combustion using fossil fuels is what we are used to, especially when the game was first introduced. Normal hydrogen can be used as a fuel. Natural gas and propane can be as well, but this runs along the oil line of thinking. Then you can even get into ethanol as well as other bio fuels. Moonshine comes to mind here.
Not sure, but I believe the Fuel Cell engine deals with this.
To be honest, it would be more efficient to switch over to electric vehicles for commercial/private vehicles, and save what oil you have for things that can not be run on electric, given the need to run without interruption, outside of engine damage.
If using non energy weapons, the need for high energy outputs drops.
The combat tactics determines if you destroy fuel tanks or try to capture them, so that is a discussion on it's own.
The periphery is even more reliant on lower tech equipment, as most of it has to be built locally, or be extremely expensive. So making local burnable fuels is more likely to happen.
Scouting the periphery is different then living there. I really don't see why you couldn't use the same fuel for the dropships for vehicles. Though solar powered units would probably be one of the better alternatives to oil in this case.
There are a lot of vehicles that could/should be converted into drones. A one shot missile ordinance sounds like a waste of space. Multiple shots would be more of a thing. Or were you thinking a single volley of missiles, ie an SRM/LRM pack?
I could see an SRM 1 with multiple reloads. Maybe even take a page from elemental armor for this one.
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Requiem
04/12/22 03:01 PM
1.158.152.223
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First, given the time disparity – shouldn’t electric motors be substantially more efficient than ICEs thus yes I agree electric will be more effective for military vehicles?
Also need to consider the effects of poor-quality fuel on engine reliability – can result in wear, premature engine failure and decreased performance – as if the engine has a fuel injection system and high-pressure fuel-pumps they are susceptible to impurities in the fuel – injectors and pumps prematurely wear out and will reduce overall equipment reliability.
Also need to consider change in fuel source from liquid to gas and how this will require a change in the engine and fuel tank etc …. Mechanical issues due to the change?
Also if using ICE there is an inability to use energy weapons! Must rely on consumables thus again dependent upon logistics to supply or they once again become a paperweight within a protracted battle.
Periphery – are they so hard up that they are cannot make an electric engine as we do now? And if not now (3025?) then when (3050?).
Logistics are the primary discussion point – inexperienced officers discuss tactics / strategies – experienced officers discuss logistics.
Drones - say 8 to10 one shot LRMs missiles only – more of a recon vehicle with option for minor strike capabilities? (SRMs range does not fit with a drones’ primary mission of staying out of sight whist observing enemy movement – need to strike at a distance.)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/12/22 04:43 PM
45.51.181.83
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Honestly, I thought that vehicles used electric motors to move the unit when using a fusion engine. As the fusion produced power, but no real movement to turn the wheels/tracks/fan lifts. I assumed it was fusion to electric-to movement parts.
There is an issue with ICE in the game. It seems they have not evolved to meet the conditions of some worlds. Yes, wear and tear would happen. Low quality fuel is something the tanks in the real world used at times. It was inefficient, but worked.
The idea that the ICE would be built from the ground up, would mean the impurities and such should be filtered out, as well as the entire system designed to deal with such issues from the start. You are not taking a racing car engine and retrofitting them into a half track type of vehicle. There is no data for how much maintenance a fusion engine has/needs, yet the units using them still need work on them.
There are busses in the real world today that run off natural gas as well as pure electric. They were built to use such things, not a retrofit. So again, the unit is designed from the start to use such things, not changing a normal engine.
ICE can use energy weapons, but require power amps and heat sinks, which is why they tend to use ACs/missiles a lot. Only 'power' needed there is to turn the turret, and they don't go over how to do so. If the normal alternators handle it or they have a connection with the drive train that does it manually, I don't know.
Not sure where the periphery not being able to make electric engines comes from, but I was saying fusion engines were an issue to make. Most went straight to mech production and upkeep.
Mission type dedicates what the drone does. I agree that a recon drone would probably use a few LRMs, but strike drones may well have enough ordinance on it to drop an atlas, even if it means flying directing into the unit.
Range is the problem with the game, as they stink compared to the missiles today.
And why do people think missiles are the only weapon a drone can use? Why not a bomb load and fly over the target and drop? Not as effective as the missiles against a moving target, but for bunkers and towers, it should work well.
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Karagin
04/12/22 06:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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IC engines are technically cheap to make, thus easy to repair, and back when the game was put out, IC covered ALL non-fusion engine types.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
04/12/22 07:12 PM
1.158.152.223
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US Marines Corps are now utilizing the electric Nikola Reckless – there are 2019 videos on the web.
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impurities and such should be filtered out
Filter can work on dirt and rust particles within the fuel tank however not too sure re the quality of fuel.
Also oil lubricants can be filtered however as to the degree of quality is it limited by the filter being used? So how good would a periphery filter be for example or even an Inner Sphere filter?
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ICE can use energy weapons
Yes.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Internal_Combustion_Engine
“ Internal combustion engines cannot power energy weapons without Power Amplifiers”
I also agree bombs would work for drones.
And isn’t it time for an update s to engine types ?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/13/22 10:56 AM
45.51.181.83
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I said something about ICEs needing to be updated a while back.
One issue that comes up is the fact that a unit using electric motors to move it would not need a multi ton engine to move it, like the game wants. A small ICE to power amps and such to recharge the battery cells is all that is needed. So the concept of trying to make vehicles using ICEs need so much weight to basically equal the fusion engine gets thrown out the window.
And as we know, the developers do not want vehicles being equal to, or better then mechs.
The filters used on vehicles today should be more then adequate, as the fuel should be strained before even attempting to add it into the fuel tank. It is possible, though unlikely, that they would brew up a batch of fuel, and dump it directly from the vat into the fuel tank.
Will that happen all the time? That is questionable. It is very possible that a unit that has gone guerilla, may skip the filtering out of desperation or necessity. And brewing it in the first place might give their position away.
As a thought, using the fuel the dropships and fighters use, could be replaced by the syphoning it from a star, so even making a simple shuttle style unit that can do this would work well.
So upgrades should have been done already, but for game balance, there isn't much that can be done without throwing the balance out. Reality wise, ICEs should have evolved, as they did in reality. The 80s, when the game was made, had a large shift from old engine designs, to better, more fuel efficient designs. The game didn't change with it for the balance reasons.
Using busses and trucks as a base, the ICE can move a unit as well as charge batteries without much of an issue. And they don't need to be 19 tons (300 rating) to do so. a 40 ton bus can reach speeds faster then units in the game, as 55 mph is much faster then 60 kph.
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Karagin
04/13/22 11:17 AM
70.118.172.64
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Sure, things like turbine engines and lighter IC engines should indeed be part of the game. Since we have fuel cells and such, it stands to reason that lighter IC engines would indeed be around and things like turbine-style engines similar to or even better than what one finds on the M1 MBT would be there.
The Battletech versions of pro-car racing would indeed be pushing lighter IC engines as would any local markets for consumer cars and trucks. However, common sense falls apart at this point, to make these kinds of changes seems to fall back into the same categories of challenging the mech as the king of the battlefield.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/14/22 01:48 AM
45.51.181.83
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If you want something to read, look up the information about diesel train engines. The diesel does NOT connect directly to the wheels in order to move it. It is all done thru making electric power, that turns electric motors, that moves the unit.
24,000 pounds is what the article was saying the engine itself weighs, which means 12 tons. This information shows the entire concept of ICEs in game is dramatically off.
Now this does not mean it is all the weight in the drive system, just the power plant. The electric motors weigh as well, though I didn't read that far into the article.
But as stated before, the game will not deal with this flaw, as it destroys the mechs ability to be the master of the battlefield.
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Karagin
04/14/22 11:13 AM
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24,000 pounds is what the article was saying the engine itself weighs, which means 12 tons. This information shows the entire concept of ICEs in game is dramatically off.
I have been saying that kind of thing for over two decades now, and the same counterargument comes up. Mechs are king and vehicles will never be revamped to a level of common sense even for this game.
Then again in this game, we have computer systems weighing similar weights to the Colussus computer of the 40s/50s makes total sense again if you look at the 80s.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/14/22 11:37 AM
45.51.181.83
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Yeah. Real life tech has surpassed the games by a long shot. Smart Phones now have more memory then some of the first years of the IBM/compatibles. The old Commodore 64 systems could run a targeting system. It would be a bit slow, but it isn't a half ton. Now, they got systems that could easily handle the entire operation of a mech, as well as deal with drones. And yet, I have yet to see them weight close to 50 pounds much less a half ton.
The game was/is fun, just not as upgradable as we would like.
The discussion of using anti ship weapons comes back to mind. No landing troops, means no real land combat, which is the games primary source of entertainment. Drones technically means mechs aren't the kings. Remote, not interruptible coms, means you don't need mech pilots to strike at the enemy. Anti air becomes more needed, as well as sensor packages that can actually detect them. Which also explains why cruise missiles and such were never introduced into the game.
There is a technical point about the trains. They are Hybrids more then ICE. You can run them off powered rails, according to the one article. There are probably dozens more saying the same thing, I just looked at the one.
A side note. The Las Vegas transit system uses a light rail unit running on tires instead of a track for the MAX bus. The ICE that is on it, runs the air conditioning as well as occasional recharge of the batteries. They didn't bother trying to move where the driver sits, so instead of in the normal side, they sit in the middle of the cockpit/drivers area. Real pain in the backside to drive.
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Karagin
04/14/22 12:24 PM
70.118.172.64
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I have driven trucks with a similar setup. Takes a lot of time to get used to that setup...lots of time and training.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
04/15/22 11:42 AM
71.47.208.18
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Did no one learn anything from WW2 logistics problems from the beaches of Normandy...
If you don't have fusion engines but you have a war then you either use IC-powered vehicles or you don't fight. The Houses in the Succession Wars had a shortage of fusion engines but they had a war on, so they fought with what was available.
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Are we to assume every world within the Inner sphere and beyond has an ample supply of crude oil
No, you shouldn't assume that about canon. It'd be worth reading ATOW's commentary on USILR codes when it comes to fuel availability by planet. Strategic Operations' and Tech Manual also address fuel options. Basically, there are IC fuel options besides drilling dead dino juice from the ground, like alcohol, natural gas, and the Fischer-Tropsch process.
The important point: read the books first. Your entire argument was addressed a decade ago in published books.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/15/22 12:00 PM
45.51.181.83
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Combat for battletech is far different from Normandy.
The fact that when you have mechs and dropships, you can drop anywhere on a world. So the concept of beach defenses goes out the window.
For most combat in history of the world, you were land bound. So things like a castle on a high bluff was easier to defend against assault, that sieges were used to weak the defenders. Some aircraft came on the scene closer to todays time, but we still have not really perfected dropping troops in quantity anywhere, at any time.
As for fuel, the game does seem to force vehicles to use far to much fuel to move. For a normal patrol, a 60 ton tank should not use 60 tons of fuel to get to a town even 100 miles from where they left. It is worse, as the game uses kilometers, which is roughly .6 of a mile. But again, this looks to be another way to nerf vehicles, as they still haven't come up with a way to make the mechs superior, that can not be argued for the vehicle with a few exceptions.
The first being mechs will function if locations are destroyed, except the CT and head, where a vehicle is dead when any location besides the turret is completely destroyed. This also has the added benefit that there are more locations that can be hit on a mech over the vehicles.
The second concept is mobility. Mechs can go just about anywhere, like heavy woods, while all tanks need a road to move thru there. This is not reflected in the game, as it limits paths for vehicles, which should make it easier to predict and hit the vehicle.
A third benefit is the ability of mechs to use physical attacks that don't rely on running in a straight line into another unit. This makes me wonder if the concept of being able to flip a tank over, in order to force it's surrender, and take it intact isn't something that could be a rule. Except skidding, there isn't much for dealing with an out of control ground unit results.
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Requiem
04/16/22 07:56 AM
1.158.152.223
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Please note the full quote … “Did no one learn anything from WW2 logistics problems from the beaches of Normandy until the capture of the port of Antwerp on 4 Sept. by the 11th Armoured Division with its harbour 90% intact.?”
Why? Prior to the Battle of Scheldt, and the liberation of the port of Antwerp, all supplies had to be driven from the artificial harbours at Normandy all the way to the front lines.
As we have been provided with the information that all planets are now independent when it comes to their ability to manufacture all necessary goods to maintain a functional society and that every world does not have access to liquid / gas fuel sources the alternative of electric becomes more prominent – logically and if one planet has access to electric engine technology then the proliferation of technology within a House becomes inevitable to ensure all vehicle manufactures have access to electric engine technology.
If the game is run as a complete planetary invasion from beginning to end logistics forms the cornerstone.
Thus, it is again a question of ‘tyranny of distance’ … i.e. logistics must be considered.
When you consider the minimal space available within a dropship and the minimal number of spots available for a single Jump-ship all military forces need to consider transport efficiency – the maximum number of combat vehicles whilst minimising the number of logistics vehicles
So how can this be achieved?
First remove internal combustion engines – as this will remove the necessity of maintaining a vast fuel transport corps – conversion to electric – TRO 3026 PG 88 Solar / Fusion recharger to recharge a vehicles battery rather than utilizing fuel.
I would also like to draw the readers attention to the film “Battle of the Bulge” and the end where all German Tanks run out of fuel, thus they had to just abandon their tanks and walk back home - and as noted those who have to walk end up loosing the war …
Electric engines provide any military unit with a strategic and tactical advantage over that of ICE! They are also easier to maintain!
Also, if we are looking at train engines may I suggest looking at China’s high-speed engines.
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So the concept of beach defences goes out the window.
No, I disagree beach defences are replaced with planetary outer / inner atmosphere defences.
Where Rommel once postulated that he needed to keep the enemy on the beach – within the Battle-Tech arena a new Rommel would postulate to keep them in space or within their LZ.
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… but we still have not really perfected dropping troops in quantity anywhere, at any time.
Paratroopers …C-17 Globemaster III / C-130 Hercules – airborne armour
And in the BattleTech era – Drop Pod / Cocoon – elementals via dropship … etc
Vehicles are not limited to just roads – they have the ability, also, to move off-road.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/16/22 11:52 AM
45.51.181.83
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Part of the issue of distance with logistics disappears with dropships. You can load up tons of equipment into them and land them closer to the front lines, which changes the time/distance as well as the enemy knowing exactly where they are at for a short while (thanks to the crappy sensors).
You also have a nice large instant defense structure they are housed it.
The lack of space in dropships is part of why huge invasions stopped being the norm for a while. The question of invading a world decision had a large factor of using what little transportation between stars you had. This would lead most to think that only the best economical targets were even an option, but that isn't the truth. Given the fact that all worlds needed to be defended, or the people of a nation would start rising up against the government was a large factor.
The concept of proxy nations around your main things like war factories comes to mind. Those worlds on the border become those nations. Best to fight the devastation they create on worlds that don't have the valuable machinery required to keep your war effort in tact.
The big issues with a pure electric vehicle is dealing with running out of a charge. The hybrid concept is just fine, as the smaller engine only runs to recharge the batteries. SO it is smaller, and requires less fuel.
This also ties into the fact that all worlds have fuel for the ICE as a standard supply. You can reasonably expect to find fuel on worlds you raid/invade. And it does provide another target for invaders, as it means they can destroy the manufacturing/storage of the ICE fuels, and the defenders will need to rebuild it, costing them materials and money, to keep it flowing to the populations as well as their own military.
I stand with the statement of not perfecting the air drop. To drop troops, you tend to have lines of soldiers spreading out along a path. This is also true of vehicles being dropped. To my knowledge, vehicles dropped are empty of soldiers in them at this time, so you have to get in, and start from there, costing precious time in a hot drop. Current air drops are done away from combat as much as possible. In the game, air drops are far better organized and performed.
Vehicles are limited to roads in heavy woods, and most have to use bridges to go over deep water, or be shipped.
The statement being: Mechs can go just about anywhere, like heavy woods, while all tanks need a road to move thru there.
This is the game rules, not real life,
In the end, ICEs are necessary in the game as the concept of having say 10,000 fusion engines being made a year, does NOT cover the millions of civillian vehicles produced a year in the IS. So something has to be done to cover the commercial use. The military is desperate for units, so ICE units, especially militia, will always be used as long as you can get fuel made for them.
As alcohol is not likely to disappear, there will always be some type of fuel for the ICE, even if it is nothing more then to move a unit into position, like a hardened position to fire from.
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Karagin
04/16/22 12:20 PM
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Yes, the norm is to drop vehicles without troops inside. And YES I am fully aware that the Russians have tried it with troops inside. The results besides dead soldiers were broken bones and concussions. So it defeats the idea of being able to fight once down.
This is why I think the idea of dropping mechs from dropships even using their jump jets is stupid and not in any way practical.
Also given that things are not as dark as first claimed, the engine output would be higher, however, price is going to be the issue. Not all can afford a fusion-powered vehicle and some worlds may not allow them.
Fuels for IC engines will always be there, be it fossil fuels, alcohol, water, or whatever exotic item someone finds on another planet that can run one. They are cheap to make and maintain, which means they aren't going anywhere.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
04/16/22 05:35 PM
1.158.152.223
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You also have a nice large instant defence structure they are housed it.
You also have a nice large instant target for aerospace fighter assault.
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The lack of space in dropships is part of why huge invasions stopped being the norm for a while.
Clan Invasion of the IS? ….. Logistics were never explained just assumed!
Problem is all worlds have an autonomous technological base – only imports are luxury goods.
What this also implies is that every Great House has the ability to transfer knowledge and technology from one world to another to increase their quality of life / technological capabilities – the same as is occurring now where a company transfers their technology from their first world country to the third world in order to take advantage of local advantages – low cost employment who can be trained as required / low environmental regulations / close to raw materials – in order to maintain an overall low cost / maximise profits.
Consider the number of worlds who have populations in the Billions – what would their minimum tech base be?
The concept that these worlds maintain a perpetual low technology is laughable – as it is the House Lords’ duty / policy to ensure all worlds minimum technology is advanced as quickly as possible – as a more advanced House equates to a stronger and more capable House when it comes to future wars.
Education / proliferation of technology within their House should be the cornerstone of any House’s defence / offence policy – this is how you keep all worlds in your House as if they know their wealth / living conditions increases they are more likely to remain with their House than jump ship and be excluded from all future developmental programs – or be invaded and have their ruler replaced by a more House friendly individual.
As for the issue of charge – as demonstrated currently this is being addressed so that by the time of the Star League shouldn’t this be a non-issue? Also, pollution, by the time of the star league wouldn’t it be logical that the issue of pollution has been addressed? Thus as mankind is attempting to return to star league tech levels they will also return to an era of high charge / time engines and low pollution?
Air drop
How about the film Aliens and their APC ? Yes, now it is too dangerous to have crew in tanks – However, in the far future could this has been fixed? Otherwise why allow Mechs to Jump and why allow elementals to jump?
If a mech can have a detachable jump pack for an orbital drop why not a vehicle – parity of technology across the military to enable grater tactical flexibility?
The games military vehicle reportage needs to be expanded to include these new VTOL transport vehicles - i.e. VTOL Mech / vehicle carriers than can transport a mech / vehicles to the battlefield quicker then just drop them on the edge of the battlefield
And when being dropped by a lager VTOL craft there is drop accuracy.
As for limiting a vehicle’s movement – the idea that when you build a combat vehicle it should also be able to move on all terrain a prerequisite? i.e. all vehicles should be amphibious etc as these vehicles must be able to be transported to any number of different worlds environments and they must be able to wage war on these alien environments – thus limiting them to just one environment becomes a counter-productive design.
Isn’t this why Omni tech became standard? Adapt to the situation at hand? All combat vehicles must be able to adapt to any environment that is thrown at them?
Also, how difficult is it to retool from ICE to electric? the concept of having ICE replaced with electric should be a no brainer.
If you have to scrounge alcohol for fuel then it is time to realize that your forces have probably lost the war – i.e. your military logistics is now non-existent – all other consumables are also non-existent.
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Not all can afford a fusion-powered vehicle and some worlds may not allow them.
Wouldn’t this be the aim of every house’s education / technology policy? The proliferation - to be the first to restore their House’s tech to Star League era tech and beyond?
Why would some worlds not allow them?
Thus, through the proliferation of technology price decreases – As how much did you pay for a TV 20 years ago to now? As quantity / efficiency increases price will decrease.
Fuels for IC engines are a sunset industry! Look at the number of vehicle manufacturers who are shifting to electric – also consider the price of fuel it is slowly increasing making fuel more and more uneconomical over time – more will be forced due to economics / their budget to shift to electric in order to have money for rent / food etc.
As the number of recharging stations increase range will no longer be an issue – as battery life per charge increases (increasing range) and time to recharge decreases more will shift over to electric. Thus by the time of Star League why would anyone remain with ICE as they should be considered a museum piece of ancient antiquity?
As for heavy woods – isn’t this why you have an Engineering Corps / infantry pathfinder corps who can just use HE to clear a path for your heavy armour?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/16/22 08:11 PM
45.51.181.83
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Back to the invasion again? The clans had the resources to send in as much materials as they needed, though they underestimated what was needed. The fact the game does not say what the losses were for the clans, as most of those losses were shifted to the PGCs. The front lines would have suffered greatly, if not for being able to do that.
If they were non omni units, they would have suffered even more, as changing out weapons, and even limbs would have meant that many more supplies were needed. A non omni unit like an Awesome needed specific designed PPCs for the 8Q. They could rig others, but time being an issue.
A large base should have defenses for dealing with aerofighters as well as anti missiles systems. Even having their own aerofighter force. Part of why the Amaris wars used a bunch of nukes, thought in game terms, nukes are not that effective. Go figure.
The idea of moving tech around isn't that simple. Companies had their own specs, and would not give that over to anyone. R&D was not easy to do, and just handing over billions in funded tech as well as creating more competition would not happen. This is why omni units were not created before the end of the SL. The fact that units were captured and even sold to nations considered hostile would mean you would not want them having the ability to use your equipment easily. Part of why ammo for some countries are only used in that countries weapons. In game terms, the MML and such were made to remove the differences in missile sizes between nations. The game didn't deal with that before those systems came out, but one nations missiles may have been a bit wider, but shorter with the same punch.
The rulers job was to maintain power. That meant keeping the masses without the means to strike at them. This is why normal people were not allowed to by mechs. Even military grade weapons were illegal for most to own. If everyone could own a mech or military vehicle, most invasions would fail as the towns folk of say 20,000 pulled out their weapons and fought back. This could also be done against one's own rulers. Much like the days of the castles. Most folk did not have full plater armor and long swords. This does not change in the future.
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ghostrider
04/16/22 08:28 PM
45.51.181.83
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As stated before, the concepts of better tech like better ICEs has been stated and agreed it should be more advanced then the game has. The logic keeping it back is a bit laughable, but no less true. It is difficult to make mechs the king of the battlefield when most mech equipment can be used by vehicles, and be that much lighter.
I believe the death ratio for crews in tanks is because the parachutes only slow down the unit so much. A short burst to slow it down even further may well negate that issue. Troopers are told to land and roll to bleed off the extra speed/power of the drop. If I know right, this is because the parachutes get the equipment down quickly, so as to lessen exposure times. Having someone floating down for a half hour means a dead soldier. Touching down in a few minutes helps keep them alive. So yes. They should have safer ways to drop units and land safely in the future. Just not today.
Some restrictions for vehicles is necessary. A hover craft is not going to be moving thru heavy forests with ease. Even doing 30 meters in 10 seconds isn't going to happen. Normal vehicles not sealed for water, will not be going thru/under a river or lake. So I do agree with most of the games restrictions, as the standard combat vehicle is not going to have special equipment to allow it to do a bunch of things.
Again, the aim is to have your loyal people deal with the high tech, and leave the dangerous knowledge out of the hands of the general populations. This causes problems to be sure. But would you really want the general populations to know how to make a nuke? It only takes one person to use it.
The price example doesn't hold up. I spent as much on a tv now, as I did in the 80's. The price being the same, but the quality/size being the difference. Commercial interests will prevent the price from dropping to low. Monopolies form to make sure they stay above a certain amount.
The problem is those with money are preventing the full scale change from oil to electric. The oil companies are going to lose their income and power if this change happens. So they are preventing it with bribes, lies, and even extortion. This would not change in the future either. Imagine the power companies running fusion engines instead of oil/gas/coal plants. They could very well power a planet for less then the cost of running power generators for a single city. That would cut into their profits so badly, they would not be making billions. This is driving the prices in the game as well. So it is oddly logically based on reality.
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Karagin
04/16/22 09:47 PM
70.118.172.64
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Electric engines are not mature enough to actually work in everyday environments. The military dropped them in the early 2000s mainly because of the issue of them not staying running in environments that the military will be fighting in. Extreme cold and heat kill electric engines.
Oil companies are going to fight it, and they should. What lies? Show me an electric car that can handle the cold weather like we saw in Virginia this past winter, where the roads are close and folks are stuck, the battery is going to only last so long and you can't run the heater and other items for long.
Also, Electric cars push the pollution more on the power plants, you still need the source of the power for the charge of the batteries. So that means something has to be making the power because the current batch of electric cars does not generate their own power.
I say we still need another 10 to 12 years before the technology is mature for real-life daily use and all of this push currently is not for the good of anything, As in the game, everything needs a power source and be it fuel-driven or electrical -driven, they still need that source.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/16/22 11:43 PM
45.51.181.83
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You can make solar panels that hook to a battery that can then be used to recharge a vehicle battery. Same with wind turbines. As for the power grid, they should have already been cleaning up their emisions, but we know that isn't going to plan.
There is one pollution factor with electric vehicle that is major. The batteries themselves use materials that are toxic to the environment when they are made.
The oil companies have been doing things like stalling and then buying patents for carborators that get better gas milage for ages. They do claim that the loss of jobs will be horrible, but so far, that has been disproven, if you believe the reports. I tend to believe the oil companies doing what they can to stop people from converting away from reliance on their product over all else.
I haven't heard anything about the Tesla vehicles having issues with the cold or heat, but it wouldn't shock me if they do. But as said, the hybrid form of the vehicles is the solution for now. They fact that you can run a normal ICE for a very short time to recharge the system, which means you can find alternative fuel sources, instead of oil.
I agree that they need a source to recharge at, which could well be something akin to a tanker truck for long hauls, on up to leeching some power from a dropship engine idling. A single fusion reactor used to power a city, should put out enough power to be used as well.
For the real world, your ETA of when they are ready may well be accurate, but the game should have had this going on during the SL and before. And yes, it goes back to the game balance of mechs wouldn't be as powerful if this were to be done.
Not sure if the Mars Rovers had issues with the cold.
Edited by ghostrider (04/16/22 11:52 PM)
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Requiem
04/17/22 02:15 AM
1.158.152.223
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Quote:
The clans had the resources to send in as much materials as they needed, though they underestimated what was needed.
The Clan’s Khans have never undertaken an invasion of such scope; and like many dictators before them (who rise to their rank through violence and not intelligence) they go on instinct and refuse to listen to those whose intelligence is greater than themselves and as such when the invasion commences there are many problems – the Clans themselves are based upon cronyism – in all reality they are like a mafia family, the adrenalin was driving them and they forgot to fear! – any true military professionalism has been brushed aside due to there being no logistical forward bases!
- HPG communication is non-existent (as only communication is via pony express) in the initial stages any request
- logistics requests will be one year out of date as the clan home worlds are six months distant – thus any accuracy as to logistics is impossible
- sibko replacement personnel numbers are completely inaccurate for any realistic loss depletion report
- damage report to Mech / Elementals / Fighters can be considered completely ignored
- what happens when a closed society meets an open society is ignored
- and the list of a poorly written story escalate from one book to the next … and as a result the story becomes increasingly incredulous …
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as most of those losses were shifted to the PGCs.
How, when PGCs existed in such minimal numbers when compared to the total TO&E for each clan, and were used as clean up units post true born war games, and only had access to third rate equipment?
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If they were non omni units, they would have suffered even more, as changing out weapons, and even limbs would have meant that many more supplies were needed.
And yet where are the omni units for the IS forces?
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A large base should have defences for dealing with aero-fighters as well as anti-missiles systems.
And yet where were these for any IS military facility?
As for nukes, within the game they are just a jumped up HE warhead – they in no way represent a true nuclear warhead.
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The idea of moving tech around isn't that simple.
Sorry I disagree – it is the same as establishing a McD franchise throughout the world.
In exchange for taxation franchises are established on worlds with similar technological levels – higher education / universities can be established – the prosperity of the nation increases as well as the defensive and offensive capabilities of the Realm.
Also all realms are quasi medieval – in exchange for their noble position they are to raise and maintain a military force to protect their fiefdom (manors) granted to them by their liege lord.
As for weapons ownership consider the Swiss - https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21379912
They have one of the highest gun owner-ship in the world, and little gun-related street crime.
Patriotism to protect their realm and not destabilizing the government (as in other more notable and prominent countries) hold sway.
This is why standardization of weapons systems within each House is required it is also why every House’s worlds with an available technological level will have a military industrial capability to maintain a minimal defence capability for that world, just as each state maintains their own reserve military force.
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It is difficult to make mechs the king of the battlefield when most mech equipment can be used by vehicles, and be that much lighter.
This is why technological upgrades should have allowed the mech additional weapons / ammunition in comparison to vehicles
Also, Mechs have only been ‘king’ of the battlefield in the absence of warships and minimal aerospace forces – with the return of naval grade weapons and aerospace forces they will return to a lower position on the totem pole.
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They should have safer ways to drop units and land safely in the future. Just not today.
And by 3025? If we VTOL or other craft can move vehicles and Mechs quickly – or if vehicle drop pods exist?
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Some restrictions for vehicles is necessary.
agree – however engineers are supposed to identify the majority of restrictions and remove them. As for movement – there are always ways around restrictions even if it does take additional time.
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would you really want the general populations to know how to make a nuke?
Considering the advances in science it would be reasonable to assume by 3025 a majority of university science students should be able to manufacture a twentieth century nuke – the only precaution would be access to materials. The same for chemical / biological weapons.
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TV
So how does your old model compare to a flat screen that can be connected to the net?
Also suggest considering the time value of money - $10,000 now or $10,000 in ten years? Most would choose the $10,000 now rather than later.
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The problem is those with money are preventing the full scale change from oil to electric.
Too late – too many have already switched, price is now comparable to that of ICE vehicle – only the number recharge stations are preventing range, it is now just a question of time.
Fuel is a sunset industry it is just a question of time until they are all phased out.
As for those that made their wealth on petroleum – they have been diversifying their portfolio for years to ensure their wealth is maintained.
As by 3025 it would be fair to assume that ICE should no longer exist – It is just a logical and rational decision to suggest that all fuel engines have been replaced with electricity.
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Electric engines are not mature enough to actually work in everyday environments.
And as for now? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHpMZea6GLs Tesla Model Y is a good example. Then there is the Merc. https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/vehicle...als-of-the-eqc/
However, as we should be discussing vehicles as by the star League and beyond? Electricity will replace Fuel.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
04/17/22 10:28 AM
70.118.172.64
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The military doe that now Ghostrider and they fail 8 times out of ten. Solar collectors to recharge a battery are not going to give it the power it needs to function. And a wind turbine, yeah the environmental changes those causes are as bad as other things. I live near several turbines in Baumholder Germany if the wind got to be blowing too hard they had to shut them down because they would catch fire and fail if they went too fast. Defeats the purpose if they can't handle high winds.
What need is a better way for Electric cars to have their own power source, and that is the major sticky point They preach pure environment friendly and that is the biggest lie, it pushes the pollution back onto the power sources and fails to mention the impact to get the materials to build the batteries to start with.
One thing Battletech has gotten right, things take time and always have that counterproductive side, that is something we want to skip over in the real world.
In theory, a single fusion generator can/could do a lot, and as we see in the game they can be very small (well small enough), and do a lot. The US Navy used a warship to power a mid-sized city but even then there were still limits, now imagine if everyone has to charge their cars and trucks and motorbikes, the drain would be enormous.
In the game, IC engines are not all just one fuel type, Cray pointed that out again, and I personally like the idea of multi-fuel engines. We use to use them in the military but moved away from it as the push was all diesel for cost reasons and to some extent safety reasons. And then kids aren't making the mistake of putting racing fuel in the tank, yes I did that once back in the 90s as a young soldier. The duce and-a-half ran fine, the mechanics were not happy with me though. 
I wonder if anyone has actually done the math and presented TPTB with a chart and supporting information that shows how better tech for vehicles, aka allowing them to use DHS, Endo, and having better IC engines, won't cause Mechs to lose their place as the King of this game?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
04/17/22 10:42 AM
71.47.208.18
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Quote:
In theory, a single fusion generator can/could do a lot, and as we see in the game they can be very small (well small enough), and do a lot. The US Navy used a warship to power a mid-sized city but even then there were still limits, now imagine if everyone has to charge their cars and trucks and motorbikes, the drain would be enormous.
StratOps addressed the ability of fusion engines to generate plentiful hydrogen for fuel cell vehicles. It didn't have a convenient way of generating alcohol or natural gas for ICs.
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And then kids aren't making the mistake of putting racing fuel in the tank, yes I did that once back in the 90s as a young soldier. The duce and-a-half ran fine, the mechanics were not happy with me though.
Heh. Young kids are still doing that.  I just had to answer a question at work, "What happens when jet fuel gets in the PAO electronic cooling system of a jet?" (Answer: if your seals and piping can handle PAO then you can handle jet fuel.)
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I wonder if anyone has actually done the math and presented TPTB with a chart and supporting information that shows how better tech for vehicles, aka allowing them to use DHS, Endo, and having better IC engines, won't cause Mechs to lose their place as the King of this game?
Heck, some TPTBs have done that in their home games. However, rules changes are made extremely conservatively.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/17/22 11:14 AM
45.51.181.83
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Forgetting that not all logistics are parts? Ammunition being a part of the logistics that the clans underestimated. It stated that in a few locations for the invasion. They just didn't bring enough of it. And as each clan was lacking in parts, the Diamond Sharks were selling them things, which had to hurt the khans egos.
Omni forces for the IS didn't exist, because those making the machines didn't spend the resources to even attempt to make them. And this is even if they thought of the idea. I will assume the main reason why the game didn't start with omni concept is the developers didn't think about it when the game originally released.
It would probably have been left out for a while, if it had, as every manufacturer making things that fit all units would cause issues with the limited supply concept that came with the original game.
A franchise vs tech patents is not even close to the same thing. If it was, the SL would have had the houses building the advance tech, instead of just the TH.
The Solar power comment was to charge a recharge station, not the unit itself. A 'fuel' truck could well be a large battery that is used to recharge units in the field with a quick charge. But I was not aware the military had tried the electric tank unit.
The wind turbines need to stop being the big propeller versions and change over to the ones that have a natural top speed that doesn't send the blades flying all over the place. They have come up with a design in recent years that should work.
One large fusion plant powering everything in a community is far cheaper then having dozens, maybe even thousands of vehicles with fusion plants running around a city. The plant could well charge reserve batteries to cover for the times when demand it high, while charging the rest when demand is low. As there is no statement on just how much power a fusion reactor puts out in wattage, it is difficult to say how much power can be used. And we know fusion reactors can be larger then the 400 rated units, as dropships and warships use the larger ones.
Again, using an small ICE to recharge the batteries when low is viable. Might be something more efficient that I am not seeing at the moment.
I would think a few have tried showing the data to the developers, but they don't want to change things. Ego being one. They would have to admit they were wrong, or didn't think about the upgrades and how they change the concept.
One thing about the military using electric vehicles. Were they influenced by lobbyists? Something simple, like weatherizing the battery compartment can go a long way to helping save the batteries and other equipment. I can see the military being ordered to avoid making it work right, as bribes are given to the right people to cause the entire experiment to fail. It may well be that the military could not use the materials used in other ventures as they were be too expensive, IE the use of gold wrap on deep space probes.
Funny when you are typing something and find out someone else did a short time earlier and it doesn't come up unless you refresh the page.
Edited by ghostrider (04/17/22 11:18 AM)
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Karagin
04/17/22 12:23 PM
70.118.172.64
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The issue with a recharge station is unlike refueling of gas/diesel, it takes more time. The average quick charge is 30 minutes to an hour depending on battery size. That means you are sitting in one area for too long.
Hybrid units are what should be the norm, since it allows you to use the IC engine to recharge the batteries and then switch over, but that isn't what we are being sold currently.
The military wanted electric for some vehicles, but the cost and concerns of actual use killed it. The recharge time is too long, environments are and do kill the batteries, and the cost to have a whole new platform built to support it vs using existing items. Remember the cost of something needs to include its support units, be that a tech or long logicist train. Something again that puts a HUGE hole in the Jihad storyline, but I degree, moving on. Lobbyists were pushing the damn things, but reality proved the technology is not mature or ready for widespread use in austere environments.
All of the things you suggested were tried and failed because a battery has its inherent weakness that temperature will kill it. Both sides of the extreme and given that other factors like you can't run it till it's dead like one would with a car, that tens to kill batteries as well. Remember the battery is one part of the engine system in EVs, and you still need all the rest to work correctly.
Also having solar panels on a tactical vehicle defeats the point of the word tactical, they have a tendency to be shinny, and to have a setup that works you take up a lot of space on the vehicle. Hell, we complain about how bad the game treats vehicles, imagine taking damage (any damage) to a solar cell, well there goes your ability to fully recharge.
As I said in another 20 years, with more testing and experiments, maybe the tech will be ready for full commercial and military use, maybe. Look at the IC engine, it took decades before it was in full use by the world militaries and even then some didn't fully mechanize till well as other nations did and even then some only used it for logistical operations and not troop movement.
The Clans had their ideas on Logistics, and that was limited fighting based on their duel system. They hadn't had a long campaign since the Pentagon Wars. So, they had to re-learn the lessons of needing a logistic train that planned for all worse-case scenarios. Even when the lessons were beaten into them, many Clans chose to ignore those lessons.
Yes, Omni-mechs would reduce some of the strain, but they have their own nightmares for the techs and supply sergeants. Oh, you wanted a pod that would work for a Dashi not a Dragonfly, my bad, uhmm let me see what I can do.
Going back to the IC engine part of this, the same applies. If you know that your enemy has supplies, you might want to be able to use as much as you can since that means you are not always counting on your own logistics train being on time and thus can use the other sides supplies. So if they have fuels for IC engines, your's should be running on similar stuff.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/17/22 12:54 PM
45.51.181.83
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The last example of the pods raises a question. Are the pods something like a lego set, where you can change the size of it to fit the machine? Or do you need to have multiple pods laying around to cover all the machines used as well as their locations?
Each is supposed to provide CASE protection as well as fit into the units. But the size of the center torso for a FIremoth is no where near the size of the center torso for a Direwolf. And they are different from arms or legs of the same unit.
The length of time to charge would have been a problem 20 years ago, and may still be, but I do know they have had some advances in that technology as well. This is not saying it is near fast enough still, but it is being worked on.
They also supposedly have solar cells that are not bound by the glass encasement, as well as some that allow multiple stacking and still providing power. Granted, that could have been propaganda in the news, so grain of salt idea.
For game purposes, you could well use the material from the jumpships solar collector to make recharge stations around the world. If you believe the Gray Death Novel, a space battle around some jumpships suggested that ppc fire slightly boosted the recharge rate of a jumpships sail. But even just making a roof out of it could help.
Hehe, use a camoflague netting that absorbs solar for recharging could be possible.
I would still like an explanation of how a fusion reactor turns the drivetrain of a vehicle. The reactors power is no motive force. So do they use electric motors to change the power to motive? This was not answered the last time I asked, and it seems very tied to the current conversation. The motors used for fusion motion would mean the need for the extremely heavy ICEs would not be necessary, as a smaller, amp/generator driving set up would work fine.
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Requiem
04/17/22 05:50 PM
1.158.152.223
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https://electrek.co/2022/02/09/the-us-army-is-going-electric-and-wants-to-be-net-zero-by-2050/
DOD Policy for US Army.
“Electrification won’t be limited to non-tactical vehicles, though. By 2035 the Army intends to field hybrid-drive tactical vehicles with fully electric tactical vehicles coming into use by 2050.”
Quote:
Omni forces for the IS didn't exist, because those making the machines didn't spend the resources to even attempt to make them.
Problem – DOD sets the parameters for the next vehicle / Mech etc. and not the military industrial complex.
DOD states they want an Omni of a certain weight class to fulfill a certain number of roles and it is up to the military industrial complex to manufacture a prototype that will be tested against others to determine to optimal model that will go into mass production.
It is each House’s Government, therefore, that drives the push for Omni tech.
Quote:
A franchise vs tech patents is not even close to the same thing. If it was, the SL would have had the houses building the advance tech, instead of just the TH.
This is the point – the proliferation of technology / education within each House should be vastly greater than stated within the game. Each House’s Government should have a Departments who sole aim is to identify and ensure transfer technology / education from one world to the next.
This is part of the duty of a House lord.
With increased technology / education – the economy increases, personal wealth increases, the safety of the realm increases!
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A 'fuel' truck could well be a large battery that is used to recharge units in the field with a quick charge.
Rather than a quick charge why not an omni pod approach – hit a button eject old battery – insert new battery – vehicle is off to war – old battery remains behind for recharging – once recharged it to can then be placed in another vehicle?
The time, therefore, is reduced considerably, and no solar panels for armour.
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you wanted a pod that would work for a Dashi not a Dragonfly, my bad, uhmm let me see what I can do.
How about rebuilding the pod from one unit to another? The base dimensions of pod should be universal for all mechs with the upper / internal systems that can be modified to fit as required. The tech, thus, should be able to convert one pod over from one mech type to another mech to another – not a problem – thus the idea of efficiency of design and practicality is expanded to ensure minimal waste (maximum efficiency) / reduce logistics issues as all pods are modular for all omni mechs.
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If you know that your enemy has supplies …
If logistics supplies have gotten this bad are we not back to the Battle of the Bulge scenario?
Otherwise, is it just SOP for one military to conduct search and destroy missions?
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I would still like an explanation of how a fusion reactor turns the drivetrain of a vehicle.
Nuclear powered ship? Mars Rover? – would these provide a suitable explanation?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/17/22 07:16 PM
45.51.181.83
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DOD did not think about an omni mech. They do NOT tell companies their parts much fit, or use other company parts, especially someone like Defiance. The DOD in the IS does NOT want another nation being able to plug their own parts into a unit and get it working quickly. This leads to issues like security breaches in combat zones. Also the idea of units going rogue to steal parts for their own units is a big problem as well. And yes, there are some units that disobey orders and have repairs for their units put on hold. Like ones that destroy or loot a town they were supposed to be protecting.
After the clan invasion, then omni tech would be pushed into service. Even then, it would make it possible for the enemy to take your damaged units and put them in the field quicker against you.
This is not saying I don't believe omni tech should be shelved, like it was.
There are ways to secure pod connections to help prevent this. From the manufacturer, it isn't going to be secured, but like the security for starting up a mech, you can force codes to be used when 'connecting' with omni pods. If the code isn't right, then self destruct.
Roman concrete is a fine example of forgotten tech. It was superior to even todays concrete mixes, but was forgotten after the fall of the Roman empire. Explain that one.
Never said anything about solar panels for armor.
But omni pods set up for batteries could well be used, once researched. Hell, omni technology is not necessary for this. It should be automatically built into units that use batteries for things, like worker mechs. Granted, the expense of the system vs using diesel come into play. Cheap now, over preventing the extra pollution.
Not every battle will have the supplies needed to fight it. Most battles will require outside supplies.
The argument for pods not being sizable comes from the fact they are CASE as well. Any sort of seam may well split when that function is required. And as stated, the arm of a FIre Moth is not going to work with a Direwolf. An AC 20 is almost the wieght of the Fire Moth itself, much less being able to fit into a pod on one.
Read the statement again.
I would still like an explanation of how a fusion reactor turns the drivetrain of a vehicle. The reactors power is no motive force. So do they use electric motors to change the power to motive?
So far, this question has not been answered properly. I pretty much guess they use electric motors to turn the wheels of a unit, but this answer would have caused major issues on explaining why ICEs can't use smaller engines to power amps and use those same electric motors the Fusion engines use for half the weight of the Fusion engine in vehicles. This destroys the concept of needing the huge ICE to move a tank a Fusion engine does for less weight, as well as giving a fusion engine the heat sinks for free.
Nuclear powered ships tend to use steam to turn turbines in order to turn propellers and such to move naval ships. Not something you can reasonably to on a jeep or something small. The Mars Rover is all electric motor. No ICE there.
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