Requiem
04/18/22 04:08 AM
1.158.152.223
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Every great House maintains their own DOD – problems arise when their ‘minister of armaments’ is unable to maintain quality / standardization of parts. As evidenced by Germany WW2 – Speer with ‘assistance’ from Goring.
Roman knowledge was lost in the middle-ages due to the fact their engineers never systematically catalogued their ‘scientific’ achievements in addition to the fact that Germanic and Eastern barbarians who did not value Roman institutions / technology.
This cannot be said with regards to modern recipes – as they are systematically catalogued, tested and evaluated under all conditions. Thus, making it impossible in providing a comparison between the fall of Rome and the Star League.
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Never said anything about solar panels for armour.
Karagin’s reply – 04/17/22 – “Also having solar panels on a tactical vehicle defeats the point of the word tactical, they have a tendency to be shiny, and to have a setup that works you take up a lot of space on the vehicle.”
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Not every battle will have the supplies needed to fight it.
Logistics – “For the want of a nail, the Kingdom was lost.” - attempting to win a battle with less than adequate supplies, will just result in defeat … back to the Battle of Bulge.
As for Fusion power – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power under the sub heading of power production?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/18/22 11:12 AM
45.51.181.83
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The link is how they produce power from the reactor. That much I know. Same as a nuke reactor.
Now the issue with the game. Vehicles do not carry millions of gallons of fluid to be super heated and sent thru the turbine in order to turn a generator. It also does not say if the power made is sent to electric motors. It just says sheilding and transmission weight. Which itself is based on the engine weight, which means the XL version provides the same power to the motive system at a lighter weight. And some how, this can not be done with the ICE set up. Imagine that.
The reason for mentioning the Roman concrete is simple. Those that knew how to make it, kept the secret to themselves, or hid the information from the rest of the world. Also, it is highly unlikely that all that knew the secret, stopped making it, or trained their children/workers how to make it.
This is to show that information is kept locally, and not allowed to be shared outside a group. This is definitely the idea behind high grade tech. Patents prevent the need to spread such information to others, even at a governments whim.
IBM is not going to hand over it's latest chip data to AMD just because a government says to. This is especially true when another nation demands this of the companies. The same can be said for missile technology. Several countries are looking to make ICBMs with nukes, yet they are having to research it themselves.
Do you think those counties did not demand current missile makers to turn over that data to them?
The very reason for competition for making new items shows that ideas such as design and substance is not shared among rival companies.
So unless you are going to raid a company for their tech/methods, you will not gain it by demanding they turn it over to others.
The battle of the bulge did not have fusion engines with energy weapons. So the use of it does not have the impact it might if all combatants used the same thing, like the battle of the bulge.
Much like saying a walled city can fight off an enemy that can air drop directly into their ciy, making the walls obsolete.
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Karagin
04/18/22 12:27 PM
70.118.172.64
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Until the fusion engines in the game become cheaper cost-wise, then IC engines will be there for those who are struggling for cash.
We all agree that something needs to be done to fix the issue of weight and materials for the standard IC engines, and we all agree that vehicles are nerfed beyond all suspension of disbelief for many of us.
IC engines aren't going away, in real life, or in the game world, so I think we have beat this horse into the ground.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
04/18/22 04:40 PM
1.158.152.223
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The link is how they produce power from the reactor.
And the link to the following page (and others) under the sub-heading power production … Direct conversion?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_energy_conversion
However, may I suggest that by the time they are created within the game a new “unknown” theory (based on Richard F. Post / magic mirrors theory?) has been postulated to allow for energy conversion into voltage – ie a new means of collecting particles at a high electrical potential where the efficiency is near 100%?
The unknown process, therefore, has just been glossed over within the game – everyone is expected to take a leap of faith that it exists in the future!
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This is definitely the idea behind high grade tech.
Problem is that 1st Year Engineering subject includes Materials; Also all new materials usually require consumer product safety testing by an independent third party when it comes to consumer / military testing … suggest looking at the film The Pentagon Wars – Bradley Fighting Vehicle – and the attempts to test it under fighting conditions … everything is tested, analysed, evaluated and documented. Whereas in the Roman era word of mouth only, master to pupil.
As for chips
https://www.nytimes.com/1984/09/12/us/improper-microchip-testing-may-bring-criminal-inquiry.html
This was back in 84 – new regs are far more onerous! Companies must have their chips tested before accepted by DOD and this will require a detailed report otherwise no sale contract for the big money – DOD holds the whip handle and they are not afraid to use it – so unless the company wants its contract – increased share price – bonuses to executives etc information will be provided.
Once a new missile system is purchased it will come with a detailed instruction / repair manual.
Also wouldn’t every country pull the missile apart to see how it ticks and at the same time consider reverse engineering or to find if the supplying country has the ability to tamper with the missiles they suppled during a combat operation – similar to what occurred during the Falklands War when Margie Thatcher was provided information on the French missile, by the French Government, that they sold to Argentina.
Or do you expect companies to provide battlefield repair calls?
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The battle of the bulge did not have fusion engines with energy weapons.
Logistic theory remains constant – it has never changed for all military throughout human history good examples include – Roman – Crusader era – China’s military -American Civil War - Napoleon’s invasion of Russia – Battle of Stalingrad – Battle of the Bulge etc ….
Where logistics had a direct outcome on the battles involved …
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Until the fusion engines in the game become cheaper cost-wise, then IC engines will be there for those who are struggling for cash.
Proliferation of technology = reduction in cost, greater access to technology.
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IC engines aren't going away, in real life, or in the game world
Beg to differ … IC engines will be reduced to be used by car enthusiasts / museums / universities only during pre-approved rallies / education sessions etc ; whereas the rest of us will be forces to go hybrid (first) then finally to electric over the next 50 – 100 years due to increased world anti-pollution legislation / increased fuel costs, to the point it no longer becomes economical / and new technological development.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/18/22 09:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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As this thread is starting to turn out like most, I think this is the last response I will be doing.
Companies will not allow the governments to give away their tech secrets. Parts being inspected is not the same thing as sending Raytheon transiters to Motorola for them to copy. Most companies with high tech product tend to force agreements that only their techs work on the equipment. In fact, they go as far as opaque epoxy covering the entire boards, including the parts on the board, to make sure no one can see what is there, or how it is set up.
The DOD has specs for things, but it does not tell the companies how the product has to look. Some things are given, like an airplane has wings, but they don't tell the manufacturers, they can not run cables to the cockpit.
Logistics still matter, but the use of fusion engines with energy weapons on a platform that can move while having half the movement parts blown away, changes a lot of things. As even the lightest mech using energy weapons can destroy a town, this is not true with ammo dependent vehicles. ICE will run out of fuel eventually, and while mechs do have variants that are all ammo dependent, they can walk thru and physical attack buildings, which is why the clarification had to be done.
There lies the problem with the game and even real life. Prices will come down only so far, and stop. The cost to repair an IC engine is cheaper then a fusion engine. This is very true for some things like energy weapons.
The use of ICEs will always be used in Battletech. The use of Hybrid units will make it more efficient, but for the most part, you will need the ICE to charge the batteries. To design a vehicle without a way to recharge it will cause the company that makes it to go bankrupt. There is not going to be a convenient store to 'gas' up, especially if there is a battle going on. It is far cheaper to maintain an ICE then a fusion engine. But without information on breakdowns and such, it will seem like this isn't true. Also, the use of better materials for the ICE was never really explored in the game. Aluminum blocks have become more popular in newer cars. Why couldn't you mold the armor used on miitary vehicles to make an ICE that can withstand the heat and pounding, while making the engine lighter? There are other advances that could well be used.
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Requiem
04/19/22 01:26 AM
1.158.152.223
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Companies will not allow the governments to give away their tech secrets.
Why would governments conduct such espionage?
Governmental oversight is used to ensure viability / efficacy / quality control etc …
Placing an opaque covering?
How does the government know there is not a second chip embedded in the first that will grant a back door to government files / weapon system the chip is attached to?
Again, safety will have to be ensured – otherwise are we to assume no James Bond villains exist?
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Education, technology and logistics
With the transference of education and an appropriate technological base will provide civilians and military alike with suitable logistics …
Thus with a suitable technological base engines (and all other technological products) can be updated (over time) on any world from ICE to Hybrid to Electric to fusion engine.
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The cost to repair an IC engine is cheaper then a fusion engine. This is very true for some things like energy weapons.
Sunset Industry
How many people are updating their vehicle over time from ICE to Hybrid to Electric due to economic pressure of rising fuel costs? The extrapolation of this is how many garages still work just on ICE, how many have begun to switch over to reflect changing social dynamics.
Also spare parts – how long until spare parts for certain vehicles exist until they become difficult / impossible to source? Most companies introduce a period of time until they become obsolete – thus requiring the consumer to update to the next model.
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The use of ICEs will always be used in Battletech.
Over time obsolesce must be included – simple laser to extended range to pulse etc
Why would any military maintain vehicles that have become obsolete?
The old must give way for the new!
The problem lies in technical readout updates – over time old technology must give way to new to allow for improved technology -improved game – improved vehicles etc.
Is it so difficult to ask for updated construction details – new weapons tables (increased range / damage decreased heat / tonnage etc over time)
Thus, for example there should be cut off dates, by 3050 ICE should be relegated to civilian only and by 3075-3100 fusion has fully returned to the IS due to massive influx of new technology.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/19/22 01:53 AM
45.51.181.83
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Why would governments conduct such espionage?
That question is the opposite of what was being said before. The idea that the government can spread technology is at the core of that argument. You can not tell one manufacturer that they have to give another trade secrets in order to preserve the technology, as hinted at in the past posts.
Hate to tell you this but almost all electronic devices has back doors in them. One part of the code or another has some what for the programmer to get into it. Windows is a big one for that. This is borne out by the fact they can remotely access your system with their main access to 'help fix' it. You didn't know it was there until they used it. And that isn't even getting into the accusations of other issues. Unless you program everything yourself, you can't be sure no one else has put in a back door. Simple one line is enough, such as hold Shift and Right Alt while typing in 'hello dolly' could well allow you to bypass all security in a program.
The release of knowledge to the general public is something those in power don't want. It is easier to control large crowds when they rely on you for luxury things. The knowledge of how to build and work on fusion engines is a big one. Without limiting who can do so, criminals can form their own armies. This is like the nuke concept. If everyone knew how to make them, someone will find a way to get the materials to do so, and use it to threaten or even explode it when upset. Sadly, this means a majority of those that would never even think of doing so, get screwed.
The whole concept of the ICE industry dying is not likely. So many jobs would be lost, which is one of the few truths about big oil. The workers would have to be retrained, which is hard to do when someone is working on say an oil rig. There is too many industries set up to make parts, as well as mechanics to work on them. Even over time, it would not happen. And if everything ran on fusion engines, those factories become even more of a target. From the implications of the game, you can not just open up a fusion engine and work on it where ever you want. The game makes it sound like the workshop is the only place you can do it. Yes, there are times when repairs are made in the field, so the game does not hold to it's own implication of things.
It is true that a lot of things will become obsolete with new tech. But what happens when that new tech isn't around? A simple EMP will take out a large chunk of consumer electronics.
The idea that everything in the IS was fusion is not true. SL equipment had ICEs in them.
The concept of a submarine came to mind about running a military unit on batteries. When under water, a non nuclear sub does not run on anything but batteries. And they can be submerged for weeks, if not months. Only when they could vent the exhaust did the ICE run subs use the engine. This was true even back in the 80s when the game was made.
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Requiem
04/19/22 03:43 AM
1.158.152.223
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That question is the opposite of what was being said before.
Miscommunication is more to the point.
Government decreases a company’s tax rate – in exchange the company establishes a new franchise upon a similarly technologically developed world (thus there is NO loss in technological patents etc) - the company has access to an increased market / profitability etc – the sate ensures technology and education is proliferated from one world to the next – thus over time the entirety of their realms social development / knowledge / job satisfaction etc increases – individual wealth increases as more people can be employed in high wealth positions / more jobs overall / decrease in unemployment – security of the realm will increase as people are experiencing (per capita) greater incomes the sate will derive greater income via personal income tax that can then be used improve the realm.
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Hate to tell you …
And yet this is why we have security organisations to ensure the product is what was asked for …
Or are we to assume that the computer companies that supplied the chips for the ICBMs also have access to the nuclear codes and can launch a first strike on their competitors?
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can remotely access your system with their main access to 'help fix' it
This still requires the owner to hit the button on their computer to authorise the access.
Or is this not the case with your computer?
Having cookies is enough of an invasion as is.
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criminals can form their own armies.
They have been doing this from year dot – Egypt, tomb raiders; Rome, cargo, prostitution, thievery, slavery etc – that over time morphed into the Mafia all the way to 1930’s US Crime Families, Drug Cartels, etc etc
As for nukes – by the year 3000 most university students should know how to make a 1945 nuke – I wouldn’t put it past most Advanced Theoretical Physicists would know how now! Thus, it is just the materials they need.
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So many jobs would be lost
Already occurring! Have a look at Holden – sunset industry to be phased out! All parts companies have also been shut down or retooled to manufacture something else.
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From the implications of the game, you can not just open up a fusion engine and work on it where ever you want.
Then how did all the new Mechs come into existence for TRO 3055 and 3058?
As stated previously by TPTB all worlds are independent (imports are for high end goods only) – what this means is that every world has the ability to manufacture anything as long as the materials / education / technology is present.
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SL equipment had ICEs in them.
Which demonstrates once again that the TPTB did not think through the implications of a science fiction setting …
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Submarine
And now? Three to four months at a time underwater?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
04/19/22 10:21 AM
70.118.172.64
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I see we are back to Requiem not ready what is said and inserting his points as if they are facts. Time to move on.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
04/19/22 04:26 PM
136.226.19.185
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I see we are back to Requiem not ready what is said and inserting his points as if they are facts. Time to move on.
Agreed. Thread closed.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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