Requiem
05/24/22 02:27 PM
101.185.82.214
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Katherine had major physiologic [phycological?] issues
And Victor was such a normal individual? Especially when you compare him to all his siblings.
As for the parricide / regicide – this appears to have been tacked on at the last second as a plot twist – and rather than improving the story it is the complete opposite (in my opinion).
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Flawed
First, there is no evidence that Katherine is ‘full of her herself’ prior to the assassination. What we see is a dutiful daughter assisting her mother in her duties (and learning) in order to assist the FC and its people – i.e. exactly what you would see from a scion of a noble house who in the event of her bother’s death will be called upon to take the throne.
What is being allured to here is considered in the future and transposed back into the past.
Second, where is all the angst in hurting Victor coming from? We never see this in any of the novels leading up to the assassination, it is just there one day and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever … as a writing plot twist this was poorly executed from the get-go! (again in my opinion).
She is also willing to share the spotlight if it furthers her ambition – did she not find romance along the way in a friend of Victor’s?
Something that is also completely overlooked is the fact that Katherine’s intelligence far exceeds that of Victor’s … a point that has been constantly ignored.
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The fact is governments run even without their leader being in C&C.
Is a complete load of BS as you require the chain of command in place and functioning to ensure the military are working within their remit … how many times has it been demonstrated within sitcoms, movies, books etc. where the President is sitting within C&C with her/his military advisers and they ask the question “What are your orders … to which it is replied STRIKE in a commanding voice – and as the go command has been given the military act and strike at the bad guys.
I would also like to point out that if the President is incapacitated … all powers are transferred to the Vice-President … and thus the go command comes from them.
As the idea that the military can act o their own orders equates to a COUP by the chiefs of staff over the elected President – or in this case the Liege Lord of their House!
Not having their Liege Lord, therefore, within the C&C or their Regent will ensure the complete destruction of the Chain of Command and the paralysation of the military!
So yay, as Victor goes swanning about as a commander of military unit and unless he actually has a regent on the Capitol World and within the C&C he has just paralysed the entire FC military from taking any action as it will require his authorisation to enact any action against any target short of a full war.
Also can you please point out a time where a military action was undertaken and where their civilian leader / liege lord did not provide authorisation to do so.
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Did Eisenhower come from a hierarchical line of warriors
Sorry but this is irrelevant point – the point as stated regarding how to command in the field of battle remains as stated above.
The point is that it is ludicrous to even consider for a Liege Lord to take to field unless in the defence of the Capitol itself … and even then you would expect the pretorian guard to back them up!
Or do you expect that all the governments have decided to slip back into the early / middle / dark age of humanity as it was such a magnanimous means of governing the people and the people will be oh so happy to know that all their freedoms won under Magna Carta etc. have been thrown away and they are little better than their Liege Lord’s chattels.
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So Katherine was the was the reason the Falcons decided to invade the LA?
Hypothesis not backed up with fact, under the law (that is what she did is completely on the up-and-up), as at that time she chose to save the Lyran half from a war of Victor’s own making, and had nothing at all to do with a hunger for power.
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Where was it stated that the Wolverines were cleared of the charges of the nuke?
They were never cleared.
However, if you had actually read the novel, you would know that the charges were fabricated, and you would also know that Niki knew the charges were BS as he had a vid of the theft proving the Wolverines innocence – he allowed them to stand (buried the evidence) so that he could maintain / remain in absolute control over all of the remaining Clans – as at this stage they were little more than obedient pets.
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Melissa
Lets get one thing straight Melissa was the glue that was holding their family together – without their mother they fractured and each child sought to fill the void, that was their mother, in their own unique way.
Victor transferred to being a military commander and refused to be anything else, as he is only the leader of the FC and who would want that when he has the Revenants to command?
Katherine buried herself in state craft, power and the ruling of the nation
Yvonne became a basket case and became withdrawn.
Arthur became a Sandoval – as he found in them a substitute family he never had with his other siblings.
Peter lost the plot and chose exile than actually doing anything meaningful with his life / changing himself for the better – however, this is not important as he is only how many slots away from being the ruler of the FC?
Which demonstrates his complete lack of understanding as to his position – thus we can say he is incredibly self-absorbed with no sense of duty.
So all and all Hanse and Melissa produced a wonderful litter of deranged individuals …
So if Melissa was still alive – you should see a more functional family – maybe even some family bonds - there would have never been a Joshua Incident – the breaking up of the FC would never have occurred, the Civil War would never have occurred …. and the list goes on ….
As for Peter’s abduction – that could still occur – however the response comes down to discovery of evidence as to whom perpetrated the crime …
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Kali
How you evaluate her sentencing depends upon your point of view – however been locked in a palace (where she can never leave) on a world that is in the grips of a never-ending ice age sounds like fun?
Her prison is more along the lines of those in Europe (and those US wealthy white-collar crimes) than those in the US.
The punishment must be evaluated from the point of view of Kali’s own mental state – if she herself found the accommodation intolerable – then yes there was a degree of punishment.
That is unless you believe in state sponsored executions – and then you would immediately demand the death penalty.
Thus the sentencing depends on your own values and how you as an individual view crime and punishment.
Who do you side with in Les Miserables – Valjean, Cosette or Javert?
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The actual print says Katherine was abusing her powers
And if you had read The Price by Niccolo Machiavelli you would know that what is going on here is absolutely normal for a ruler.
As far as any Machiavellian leader would consider her actions reasonable.
Thus once again it depends on your point of view as how a government and their Liege Lord operates as to the questions of moral right and wrong …
Thus the ide that she is a psychopath now becomes debateable.
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Once the truth got out
How is that working out currently in so many countries around the world currently?
Also, the “truth” never did get out as Victor buried the so called evidence – i.e. it was never shown on main stream vid news / current affairs as it was filled with innuendo and assumptions … there was never any hard facts! They had to make it up Starling’s paintings etc …. Thus they lied to get to the final “proof” – thus any evidence would be thrown out as coming from the poisoned tree argument.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/24/22 05:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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Dutiful daughter killing her mother? Especially since that mother was creating a peaceful realm, not some insane ruler?
For reading between the lines, and comprehending everything, you missed out on a few things. But then the alt is the only solution to the story, or so you believe. With the death of her father, she became more and more unstable. She betrayed everything and every one in the FC. I think you really need a new dictionary, as the terms used don't match the situations.
The leader tells his military what they want. The military then provides orders to the units to make it happen. So take out the clans at all costs means they have free reign to take out the clans. The leader does NOT sit an advise every single action done. He lets those in charge do what they do best. Something most leaders can't. The control the forces available to them.
Also the leader do NOT tell every department how to operate. General orders are left and they do their best to make things happen, and come out for the better. Or do you think the leader sits in when the department of agriculture is going over how much grain came from a field, or if the drought will affect the crops in a region?
Yeah. The government runs on it's own. The leader steps in when something is wrong. Also, decisions can be made while they are away. Part of what regents do. How long did the SL government run without a leader when Richards parents died, and he was old enough to take control? How many others have done the same?
Did something change when Hanse died? Did they remove all those that worked for Hanse die with him? Or did they just switch from working with Hanse, to working with Melissa and then Victor? I'm confused with this. What changed other then the leader dying?
Irrelevant? Must be nice using the looking glass to ignore fact. For a nation that runs with heirs, something like military prowess is important and needs to be continued. This does not make the leader good at keeping food on the table, or running out of things like clothes. But it is very important to those that need to show they can be in the field.
Just go back to the alt threads, as you do not seem to understand anything but a fan fiction story line.
Removing the LC from the FC does help her greed for power. It shows Victor in a horrible light as well as weakening the FS portion of the nation. It erodes his popularity making him that much easier to deal with. It backfired on her some, as she was seen betraying the FC entirely. She removed LC troops from the Chaos march,which was given the Melissa and the LC.
Katherine knew the charges were real against her killing her mother. The Wolverines were never cleared in court. Katherine never was cleared in court. You don't see the very same thing here? Oh wait, the Wolverines were innocent while Katherine was guilty.
Glossed over the fact that without Katherine killing Melissa, Victor would not have hated Katherine enough to blame her? And with this, the civil war would never come about anyways, as Melissa was still the driving force behind the FC government? No comprehension here.
Funny. For demanding those that use WMD be punished severely, Kali seems to show otherwise. Her orders, and her cult needed to be wiped out. Period. Kali built up more power in exile, as she was only restrained physically, and was not prevented from contacting those outside of the 'prison'.
One a side note, the deaths she caused were slow painful ones. Not instantaneous.
What does some writing outside of the actual story done by the developers have to do with the story line? Nothing.
Yet, some how, you think it changes the entire story to fit the alt. It doesn't. Katherine was a psycopath. She would kill anyone to be in charge. That was proven. Outside books have nothing to do with the canon story line.
And if you read the canon story line as written, not adding in your concepts that aren't there, you would see the true facts of the story line. Instead, you keep coming up with things that didn't exist in the story to try and make you concepts true.
The story was put out, whether you want to believe it or not. Those that supported Katherine would have stated something to that effect. Otherwise, another civil war would have happened when this happened. It didn't so enough people found the truth and left it.
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Karagin
05/24/22 05:45 PM
70.118.172.64
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The House militaries have their chain of command. The House Ruler is ALWAYS the head of the military.
So Hanses died, which means his wife, Melissa is now the Head of the Federated Commonwealth Military, same generals and admirals, same staff, same junior officers, etc... those who were loyal to her husband are loyal to her. So when Victor took over after the death of his mother, these same officers are either going to remain loyal and stay at the posts or resign and go away.
Will Victor make changes within the Departments and will he encourage some to retire, yes that is normally what happens. In fact, ALL of the Houses have this happen, in fact, in two of them, a new head of state means many will be without their heads shortly.
I do not see what is irrelevant since we are covering things from the canon point of view with speculation as far as what could have happened or what we think should have happened, Yet we are not saying our Points of Speculation are facts, we are using them to move a conversation along. If you want your ALT written for you, then why not just ask us to do that, otherwise you are pulling a damn strawman argument and a no faith argument since you will change your "facts" the second you don't like canon take on things.
The only books that matter to the game are those put out by FASA, FANPRO, and CGL. These are novels, sourcebooks, TROs, scenario books, and things like that.
THEY DO NOT INCLUDE things like BATTLETECHNOLOY magazine or anything similar, nor do they include Fanzines like Future Wars, etc...NONE of those are canon at any level, regardless of what Fabby tries to claim in the Wiki.
Canon means a published book/item FROM the main writers in an approved OFFICIAL book/item. Period.
My fan-fiction ALT that has the WoB never getting to be the Ubermesh is just that, my fan-fiction, it means nothing to anyone else, even if they agree with me on the subject. The same goes for you ALT. It's not canon, it's not even remotely relevant to the topic of discussion.
Now, having said that, you can use something that could have happened if it's logical to counter a canon fact that is badly handled or a bad retcon, BUT you need to do so to show WHY you think your point is more logical than the canon version. So far you haven't done that, all you have done is repeat your point of view that you don't like warships and you feel the Clans are not good for the game. I don't believe the WoB Jihad storyline was good for the game, I really believe that it hurt the game and divided the fan base, and was poorly handled across the board. My opinion of course.
Katherine had no ability to rule, she wanted to control, those are two different things. Victor was not ready, he knew that, and many of his close advisors and friends knew that, as did many of his enemies. Yet Victor worked within his abilities and didn't try to abuse his power. Whereas his sister did not, she tried to do things she was not trained to do or understood the fine details of doing.
Her jumping into Clan space was both stupid, and illogical, yet she did it because she wanted it to happen and none of the YES men around her said anything but "Yes Ma'am" and off they went. The funny thing is even the bigger sci-fi franchises make similar asinine mistakes, Star Wars makes tons of them, and books could be written about the illogical plot moments in that franchise. Same with Star Trek.
Katherine would have made a play for power even if Melissia stepped down the day after Hanse died. She wanted to control the Fed-Com, not just rule. And really that issue starts with how she was raised. Something we know very little about. We have no real information on the lives of the heirs to Houses, both great and small, beyond what we saw in the Clan Trilogy and bits and pieces from other books. We know far more about how Clans' major and minor characters were raised than the Inner Sphere ones.
The Fed-Com really didn't start until Victory took the throne, and I believe this was mentioned in one of the sourcebooks and in one of the novels. So it was already on shaky footing before Victor could be sworn in and then the killing of his mother by Katherine and others who want to see it destroyed was the tipping point for its fall. The civil war was going to happen sooner or latter.
The canon happened, anything else is not canon, thus it didn't happen. This is why I laugh when folks are crying about you must paint your mechs to match a House, Clan, or Merc Unit. In reality, you do not have to do this at all. You don't even need to paint the miniatures. So when folks make these statements, they are asked to point us to a CANON rule book that states the mechs must be painted and that they then must be painted to a House/Clan or Merc unit in order to be allowed to be used. No one can ever provide the title of that rule book, because it doesn't exist. And the catch here is that they are bringing in their fan-fiction by trying to bring in rules from other miniatures games like WH40K.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/24/22 07:47 PM
45.51.181.83
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The people crying about painting your mechs.
Unless you are a house unit, which you don't have a choose then, you will have to repaint them every time you change whom you work for. As for the lead figures, they must have stock in the companies that sell them, as I can not afford to have thousands of figures sitting around for the time I might need a Vindicator in 4th Sword of Light paint schemes.
As they look better, most of the time, it does not change how they work on the map. One issue I can see is not remembering which atlas belongs to who when playing. So identifying them is needed. That can be done with a few simple things, while not being painted a specific color scheme. And even then, you still have issues. The famous Steiner scout lance of all atlases comes to mind.
Yeah. A reflex cannon just does not work in the Battletech universe.
The shields are almost as bad.
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Karagin
05/24/22 08:00 PM
70.118.172.64
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The people crying about painting your mechs.
Unless you are a house unit, which you don't have a choose then, you will have to repaint them every time you change whom you work for. As for the lead figures, they must have stock in the companies that sell them, as I can not afford to have thousands of figures sitting around for the time I might need a Vindicator in 4th Sword of Light paint schemes.
As they look better, most of the time, it does not change how they work on the map. One issue I can see is not remembering which atlas belongs to who when playing. So identifying them is needed. That can be done with a few simple things, while not being painted a specific color scheme. And even then, you still have issues. The famous Steiner scout lance of all atlases comes to mind.
Yeah, it's a lot of fun watching them get up set when you field a lance or company of unpainted gray plastic or slightly off silver pewter miniatures.
Or my favorite is when they cry and I pull out the solid single color painted mechs. They get even more upset when I explain Red is Combine. Green is Laio, Purple is Marik, Blue is Davion and Gray is Steiner. Fun times.
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Yeah. A reflex cannon just does not work in the Battletech universe.
The shields are almost as bad.
Nor does the Wave Gun in the Mouth(TM) work either. But some would say they do because you know Fan-Fiction said so.
Shields, Axes, Swords, etc...all belong on Solaris VII in my opinion.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/24/22 08:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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Wait. Blue for Davion? I thought they used Yellow to depict them in canon sources, with Blue being Steiner.
No wonder why they cried. 
They should be happy someone HAS some figures to bring to a game. Not all can afford them to begin with, and that was before the 10+ dollars per figure. The problem I had was no money, or no where I could get them. I am not big on internet shopping, as my debit and credit card aren't used unless absolutely necessary. Too easy for someone to hack the site, or line.
I want the transporter/teleporter units from either Star Trek or Star Gate. Instant transmission of forces directly into the enemy's store house to raid their supplies.
Though cloaks are a close second.
The ability to hyperspace jump directly into firing range of your ships is nice as well.
The swords in canon was a little much, as axes were fine. The shields just sound like a cheat to add more armor onto an arm, when the game has it's limits set. It makes some sense. But then the game suggests weight limits that can be picked up with the hands/arms, yet it doesn't restrict the weight of weapons that can be placed in the arms.
Though I wonder if the multi arm units would work. Hold the enemy in place while you carve them up.
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Requiem
05/25/22 08:53 AM
1.121.163.146
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question
Before I begin, I have simple enquiry – in a game setting there is the Game Master (GM) and the Player Character (PC).
Can you please let me know how your players concluded that Katherine is “evil”, or even a “murderer” if all the information you’re PC only has access to is information supplied within the game – such as media sites etc.?
That is all information derived from novels are now excluded from the PC’s knowledge base.
So when you talk about Canon this and Canon that - ask yourself does my character have the ability to know this?
So how do you come to a decision to vilify Katherine?
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Some insane ruler
Can anyone, within a court of law, provide absolute evidence as to her “so called” guilt – where is the ‘smoking gun’ that proves she is guilty?
The problem is the story NEVER supplies the reader with this evidence. The ‘evidence’ is conjecture only!
As if Victor did have this evidence, then why didn’t he take it to trial?
The answer is quite clear – it will never hold up – and under the law innocent until proven guilty still stands or have we suddenly moved to France where is the other way – guilty until proven innocent?
Just because you don’t like her style of government does not make it wrong!
There are many ways to govern, and they all do not have to be liberal democratic …
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What changed other then the leader dying?
Really? What is the constitutional power of the First Price (unfortunately this has never been discussed thus general assumptions have to be made.)
The power to sign legislation – or remove it.
Command over the Armed Forces
The ability to raise and regulate military forces.
Declare combat operations / war etc. – has supreme operational command to authorise the deployment of forces.
Assign and ask for the opinion of cabinet members.
Grant Titles of Nobility
Grant pardons
Assign and receive ambassadors i.e. diplomatic corp.
Assign and remove judges
Appoint / remove executive officers – from all government agencies.
The ability to enter into treaties.
Enforce the law …
Quell civil turmoil, rebellions and insurrections
Powers to manage the national affairs and priority of the House’s government.
Can unilaterally issue rules, regulations, instructions etc …
Public proclamations
Executive orders – binding force of the government. Upon government agencies as well as their citizenry.
Set the national budget – which includes taxation as well as the military budget.
The ability to set judicial law review and even interpretation.
The House’s political agenda
Implement legislative provisions
Signing a bill into law.
Vetoes do not exist here …
The ability to propose legislation and then turn it into law.
The ability to sway public opinion
Has the power over all spy / homeland security agencies
Power over the Federal reserve Bank and securities and exchange
A new ruler can appoint new staff members – aids, advisers and assistants.
Total control over Foreign Powers
Total Control over Emergency Powers
Also note that a House Lord doesn’t really have any constraints upon their power!
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Just go back to the alt threads, as you do not seem to understand anything but a fan fiction story line.
I see you can write it from the FS perspective – how about giving a try as to LC perspective?
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The Wolverines were never cleared in court. Katherine never was cleared in court.
You do realize that neither the Wolverines nor Katherine ever made it into a court room other than the court of public opinion thus the idea of innocent / guilty becomes incredibly subjective as to if you are LC or FS.
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Glossed over the fact that without Katherine killing Melissa, Victor would not have hated Katherine enough to blame her?
How many siblings have a streak of animosity towards each other? So comprehension is there …
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those that use WMD be punished severely, Kali seems to show otherwise.
Please not two different groupings
Group A – Military / Civilian individual who ordered / directed the use of the WMD; and
Group B – High Ranking Politician who has friends, influence at court and who has the ability to start a civil war should things get rough.
Kali is in the B Group thus making any sentencing dicey at the best of times. Go hard on her and how will some of the extreme members of the House take it?
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The Price by Niccolo Machiavelli - What does some writing outside of the actual story done by the developers have to do with the story line? Nothing.
You do realize it changes her personality from psychopath to Machiavellianism ….
History shows that both those who do not learn from history and those who do learn history are doomed to repeat it.
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It didn't so enough people found the truth and left it.
You do realize that at the end people were just sick and tired of the entire shemozzle on both sides – it had become an albatross around both their necks!
Thus when Victor retired to ComStar and he gave his sister to the Wolves (literally and figuratively)
Then appointed their two remaining siblings as heirs of each state many were more interested in the future than the past … problem is both of these siblings turned out to be absolutely useless!
After the initial honeymoon was over many would have been pining for their past leaders as it is quite clear to the people of both states these individuals are far more superior to the fools that have been forced upon them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/25/22 09:36 AM
70.118.172.64
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Wait. Blue for Davion? I thought they used Yellow to depict them in canon sources, with Blue being Steiner.
No wonder why they cried.
They should be happy someone HAS some figures to bring to a game. Not all can afford them to begin with, and that was before the 10+ dollars per figure. The problem I had was no money, or no where I could get them. I am not big on internet shopping, as my debit and credit card aren't used unless absolutely necessary. Too easy for someone to hack the site, or line.
When I did up the single color lances, I didn't have yellow, I blue and Dark Gray, so...Davion Blue, Steiner Dark Grey. Plus it's fun to watch the 40K-now BT players cry over stupid crap. And then beat the BV munchkin force with a lot less BV force and watch them cry about cheating or something, yet that too can't be proven either. Even when you explain to them that hey you lost because you ran to the middle of the board to play Bash'em Sock'em Robots and I played the game as a TACTICAL maneuver game using the terrain, yeah that's how your munchkin BV force lost.
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The ability to hyperspace jump directly into firing range of your ships is nice as well
Yes, that is nice.
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The swords in canon was a little much, as axes were fine. The shields just sound like a cheat to add more armor onto an arm, when the game has it's limits set. It makes some sense. But then the game suggests weight limits that can be picked up with the hands/arms, yet it doesn't restrict the weight of weapons that can be placed in the arms.
Though I wonder if the multi arm units would work. Hold the enemy in place while you carve them up.
One maybe two mechs with the Hatchets was fine, now we have something eight or more, and every munchkin home design has the melee weapons, TSM, the right amount of heat to maximize that setup, and the normal elite pilot to boot. It would be fine if this game was about Solaris VII, but it's not.
Since the Clans dislike melee combat every Inner Sphere mech should have a melee weapon using the logic of this.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/25/22 10:43 AM
45.51.181.83
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The fact that she stole the thrones, punished entire worlds for not praising her as god, for allowing her troops to run rampant on those she deemed disloyal, as well as others isn't enough to suggest her intent was not good? Convictions in court can be iffy, as twisting and distortions happen a lot by those that know how to do so. A long, lengthy court case costs money. The fact that evidence will convince most of what was done. Even judges will be convinced with what was had. To be honest, Victor should have just had her executed and been done with it. He was not going to retain the thrones afterwards, so the accusation of starting the war for power is not there.
Funny how you threw out this discussion point about the IS response to the clan invasion.
What? You mean the story never showed what the evidence was, and yet you say it wasn't enough? They just left it as Victor used Katherine's tactic of implying things, as that can not be distorted? Wow. Guess the argument for Katherine not doing the crimes must be false. The evidence says so. Yeah, right.
So absolutely nothing has changed when one leader dies and the next takes over, on how the government runs. Each ruler puts in their ideas, but for the most part, it continues to operate. That's what I said, and you just proved. As the leader does NOT sit in a recruiting office, signing up people, nor does he say we need 12 million track parts for a specific tank, and that stuff, he just tells his subordinates to get done what needs to be done. They could well run on last years/months quotas. Hell, most of the time the leader doesn't change anything, but the heads of the quartermaster changes what needs to be done.
Essentially, all that listed, is something they can change, but is not required to be in there.
The LC version of it? Without Katherine's greed for power, the issue with Joshua would have been different in the people's view. You say Katherine did what she had to in order to allow the LC nation to survive. This is what Victor did. He was going to use a ruse in order to make sure the troops fighting the clans had the best equipment possible in order to fight an invader, that did not seem stoppable. Had Victor done what he should have, and pulled the FS troops out of the LC at that time, and just let them go it alone, what would Katherine have done? Oh yeah. The LC would have been destroyed, as the clans would have pushed far deeper and faster into the LC.
The probability of social generals returning would have hastened the disintegration of the situation as well.
This is not writing from the FS perspective, but the perspective of Katherine's actions nearly destroyed the LC. This is following the canon story, not fan fiction that only one person knows.
Funny thing. Most of those people Katherine had accused of crimes never seen the courts. They were just killed on sight. Where is the outrage there? This is especially true with Melissa. There was no crime there, other then being in Katherine's way to power.
So now you are trying to make excuses for using WMD? If they are not the rulers of a government, then it is ok and shouldn't be punished? There is no defense situation on how they were used. It wasn't to stop an invasion by superior forces, but by the invaders to kill any and all, as the chemicals killed all, including the invaders forces. And what is to stop the government forces from saying it was a rogue element that used it? Not once, but multiple times on different worlds. Not seeing the whole picture?
There is no comparison in the fact Victor only started hating his sister when he realized Katherine killed their mother. And the reason was worse. Because Melissa stood in her way to seize power. No other reason, like if Melissa was having people tortured in the courts for pleasure. Not starving worlds by destroying farms and such. Not rounding up political enemies on a whim. It was because Katherine could not have Melissa bringing the FC closer together. To suggest Victor would have started the civil war without the catalyst of the death of their mother, and nothing else, is a complete logic hole. As the other events would not have happened, there would be no reason to even try. The abduction would have been better investigated, and it would have been done my Melissa, not Victor. But again, you missed these issues as you're focused on blaming Victor for Katherine's lust for power.
Do you know that when a victor rewrites history, it changes their motives from greed to something noble? Nothing will change the fact that Katherine was power hungry and will do anything to retain and gain more power? Had the Civil war not happened, she would have set off another round of nukes, as the other nations would have denied her the First Lord position, and she would have went to war against them with the mind set of the 1st succession war? Kill all those that oppose you in any way you can. She is one to think that if I have to be the only one left to rule, then so be it.
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Karagin
05/25/22 11:07 AM
70.118.172.64
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IF the Civil War didn't happen she would NOT be in a position to hold on to the LC side of things. Victor would have found a way to remove her. Recall the Civil War along with the Falcon Wolf War was a way to weaken the major players at the time. All so they could then be blind to the WoB and their Wonder Twin Powers (Tm)
Katherine was written as a petty tyrant, she was the foil for Victor to learn some hard lessons. If TPTB had used any real logic and wanted a story that had depth beyond an 8th-grade reading level, we would have seen more of the why's about her issues. Also if she was so amazing at being a ruler, that she wasn't, then why didn't her other siblings' side with her against Victor? She tried hard to slander and destroy Yvonne, her own sister, and yet we are to believe that she was an amazing ruler because some ALT Fan-Fiction says so? Is Twilight next to be added in?
The ONLY way Katherine gets the LC, is for mommy to die, and that death is so insane crazy level that it casts doubt on everything the Fed-Com stood for. Then making it look like Victor was the petty one, and thus the one to gain from it shows that she had a lot of issues. If Melissa doesn't die, then Katherine has NO chance to be in charge of anything. And while she still might try, she will not have the same level of support from the fringe and corrupt elements that she got after the death of Melissa. This ALT is a joke, clearly hasn't read the novels or sourcebooks, and again has NO idea that a point of departure from the main has to have a logical point or else it's Alien Space Bat crap.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/25/22 12:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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It was said a long while ago, that in order for the logic holes to be fixed, the history would have to start from the first SL. Probably before. With those changes, the entire 3025 era would be vastly different, as a lot of the story line would never have happened, to create the situation that existed in the canon time line. As the alt does not want to move away from canon, as indicated by the absolute refusal to stop using canon, there is no way to remove the issues. One of the biggest being the Amaris war to begin with. There is no way that a leader from a nation that is at war with the SL would be allowed to get anywhere near the young heir to the SL throne. Beyond that, there are so many written before the retcons cause even more problems.
The entire concept of the FC would not have happened, as the rulers that were alive at this point, would not have existed, since the circumstances of them even being born wouldn't have happened. At least of the main alt being pushed. A few have shown up, where some things have some odd questions, they do not dramatically change the timeline of events to the point of becoming a major new story. Those that run, or play the other alts, do not demand theirs is the only solution to the issues with canon.
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Karagin
05/25/22 02:32 PM
70.118.172.64
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It all depends on when the point of departure (POD) is set, a lot of what you say is true if the POD is set before the first Star League. Now when most writers/authors do alternate history, they don't make complete changes that wipe out whole events unless the POD is so far back that everything would change.
In this case, if the idea is to have NO Fed-Com then a POD set somewhere after the 2nd or 3rd Succession War would be needed. Then there is a catch, why did this event happen in place of the canon one? Given what I have seen of the ALT, the whole thing is more of a bad fan-fiction than an ALT.
True Alternate Histories keep similar events, mechs would still be made, Omnimechs as well. Something similar to Clans would happen, etc...but the difference is when and who, and what happens. Plenty of examples of excellent Alt-Histories out there on the Net and plenty of bad ones as well.
As I said before, using an Alt-History model can allow you to get a better understanding of why things happened. Along with reason and ideas of why events normally have a logic to them. Now in the case of Battletech, you have to be even more honest with things and any changes you make need to make logical sense or you are doing no better than what you are complaining about.
Seen several BT Alts that are really good, and I can count the number of the good ones on one hand. The number of bad ones, well, I need a slide rule for that. The point is we are having a discussion about canon and speculating on things about the ongoings of the Inner Sphere and the reality of that said place. Offering a quick well this could happen as a future event or you know IF so and so had done Y or Z vs X then we would have seen this happen sooner or later or what not is fine, it offers a counter, but to claim that is all factual because you like it better nope sorry but that's arguing in bad faith. Which is what he is doing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (05/25/22 02:37 PM)
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ghostrider
05/25/22 08:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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The reason why I said about the 1st Star League, is the person pushing an alt says that there are no logic holes in their alt version. Yet Amaris getting to Terra, much less close to Richard is a huge logic hole. Without the assassination attempt, the war that came from it wouldn't have happened. It may have been done with other leaders doing so, but the entire exodus would not have occurred at the time stated. It might also have been less nuke fest, or possibly even worse. The first war may have been pushed back to when all were ready for it, or one or more of the nations might have been part of destroying the SL. Huge possibilities, but Amaris wouldn't be part of it. So the full destruction of the RWR would be unlikely as well. With this, the LC might be larger or smaller, depending on this as well as if the RWR resisted the LC.
And I totally agree. The bad faith discussion is to promote an alt that has several threads dedicated to it, but most still seem to suggest they are canon fact. As it gets called out as canon lies, the statement comes out after several posts that is was alt, not canon. Yet pushed as canon until called out.
So far, only one person has stated their alt is the only solution. This is a problem, as others will not show more of their own, which I do take some responsibility for them avoiding it. I was (am) a moron that got overzealous and jumped on them for it.
I make mistakes. Some of them were changes happening after the original books were published. A few were forgetting some important piece of it. I tend to admit when I do so. I normally don't say it is canon after it is shown as false. But there lies the issue with one author of an alt.
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Karagin
05/26/22 02:02 AM
70.118.172.64
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I jump on things too, and I know my Alt is not perfect. I am changing to fit something else of my own less BT fan fiction. However, the points in my take, I am making sure similar silliness as I see in the main storyline are addressed, and logic plays out vs. my want something just because. I am going for more story and character-driven vs. just character-driven. I firmly believe that some of the issues in BT are that the game went from story-driven to character-driven, and they could not shift back and forth as needed. Too many chefs in the kitchen and no one with a clear over plan.
The thing is, I have never been pushed by alt or ideas as canon; I have used them to question canon and point out possibilities, but never as replacements because I know they are not.
Now your point about the RWR fighting harder against the LC, that I could see happening if the LC tried to attack them while the bulk of the Amaris military was in the Hegemony. Why didn't the LC make a play for the RWR while they were tied up against the SLDF before Kerensky sacked the whole Republic?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/26/22 07:03 AM
101.185.5.51
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Quote:
The fact that she stole the thrones, punished entire worlds for not praising her as god.
I see, in other words you don’t really have any evidence it is all just conjecture based upon personal belief or how your character was affected, as being a part of the FS, whilst being affected by her actions.
If you’re a Lyran (circa Joshua incident) what she did is considered appropriate – they welcomed her action as correct and they believe wholeheartedly that she is the progeny of her mother’s and her grandmother, two incredible Archons in their own right. It is, therefore, just a natural progression …
As for the second throne, the FS throne, Victor (rather than actually doing his job as a ruler of a realm departed the IS for planets unknown, he abandoned the throne to a weak regent – it was speculation if he was even still alive). Then Yvonne (wallflower and incompetent individual) finds ruling a realm impossible as she just cannot do the job. She, therefore, INVITES Katherine to take the throne as she has proven herself to be competing when ruling the realm.
The idea, therefore, that she stole the throne is just an individual’s conjecture – there is no proof to the effect! How can you steal a throne when it is given to you?
Punished entire worlds – sorry but again these were shipping logistical issues brought on by transport companies due to the effect of either breakdown or there were just not enough jump-ships / drop-ships to even complete the task – Considering how many within the forum harp on about how I cannot move troops around due to there being no ships the idea that suddenly there is an adequate supply within Lyran space and it is all Katherine’s fault becomes too far fetched to believe. Everyone has come to accept that with a small number of ships the probability of delays is just normal operating procedure.
Not praising her as God – since when did she start a religion? Public perception is normal for a politician – even today many live and die by their soundbites and how they are perceived – and how many individuals now want to be like socialite, media personality Kim K and follow her every move etc.? The same can be said for Katherine, that she is viewed in the same principle ….
It therefore comes down once more to personal conjecture and the media that you trust -to “imply things” as a means of swaying public opinion and discourse – as again there was never any proof as her complicity in any murder or illegal act. There is only belief in Victor or Katherine …
And remember the Civil War commenced by Victor declaring war – and yet when he did he not once cited any proof (other than his own belief) that Katherine was guilty – and at the end of the war – he again never supplied any proof to the people of the IS.
What we do see however is that he acted as a man on mission based on vengeance for loosing his throne when he returned the conquering hero and when he just handed his sister over to the Clans … this is the reality of what was seen by all …
He had just waged a war as apart of the SLDF to bring freedom to the IS and yet rather than allow his sister that freedom he through her to the wolves with no remorse whatsoever!
At this stage both the Lyran and the Suns economy was on the rebound and for the first time in many years there was security and peace in the IS.
The real Victor would be seen by many as a petty individual who when he did not receive his accolades upon returning the conquering hero decided to remain with his Kurita friends (and lover) in order to formulate a plan to vent his frustration out on the person who belittled him …. Katherine!
And he found it in ComStar … and in his ability to hinder her advancement in becoming First Lord … Victor really is petty!
So, Sorry to burst you bubble but it appears at the end that Victor is the Tyrant who colluded with Kuritans and not Katherine for his actions in removing his sister and starting the civil war …
This is the point – in a society where there has never been any proof Victors actions such as who he colludes with - (and not Katherines) appear to be the greater tyranny as his actions are based upon vengeance … there was no evidence in proving the righteousness of his cause … Katherine was only defending herself.
Also have notices that Victors’ fingerprints are on almost all the missteps within the FC?
Thus in the court of public opinion Victor should be the bad guy, despite all his good intentions … he just does not have it to be a ruler!
Quote:
So absolutely nothing has changed when one leader dies and the next takes over, on how the government runs.
Do you realize that you have just missed the entire point of what was outlined above?
The government may continue to operate – however the hand on the tiller changes and as a result the destination changes – the way the Nation sees itself changes … everything can change … just look at the past 3 US Presidents …
You do realize that for any government to operate it requires the authorisation of the leader at every step – thus with Victor’s absence this step cannot be achieved … thus paralysing the entire nation …
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nor does he say we need 12 million track parts for a specific tank
Yes this is true, however as leader she/he can decide to de-fund / keep the funding the same / increase the funding to your tank and as such can ensure – it never gets built / stays the same / is increased in size and scope.
So she/he just tells a department head what he wants and it gets done.
Thus the heads of the quartermasters must live within the budget set by their leader – and depending on their view this can change everything!
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The LC version of it? Without Katherine's greed for power, the issue with Joshua would have been different in the people's view.
For someone who demands absolute canon – how hard is it to research this point?
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Funny thing. Most of those people Katherine had accused of crimes never seen the courts. They were just killed on sight. Where is the outrage there?
Please provide a list ….
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So now you are trying to make excuses for using WMD?
And once again comprehension causes issues.
Political power affords certain amount of accommodation ..
And as for a rogue element – how long will that old ploy stand up to intense scrutiny?
Using it multiple times will only just reinforce the intelligence spy’s belief that their enemy government is using it and not a rogue element.
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Victor only started hating his sister when he realized Katherine killed their mother
You do realize that he never obtained conclusive proof – thus you really have to ask where the hate is really coming from.
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when a victor re-writes history
The problem is that there are historians who actually do their research and leg work and who can actually come a definitive conclusion based on that pesky notion called “truth”!
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Had the Civil war not happened, she would have set off another round of nukes, as the other nations would have denied her the First Lord position, and she would have went to war against them with the mind set of the 1st succession war?
Wasn’t this supposed to be a non alt. Universe zone?
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There is no way that a leader from a nation that is at war with the SL would be allowed to get anywhere near the young heir to the SL throne.
You do realize that Amaris is a very strong proponent of the Star League and the First Lord – and he also has dual citizenship?
You also realize how many social gatherings there are when the House Lords visit to discuss issues with the First Lord.
Quote:
As I said before, using an Alt-History model can allow you to get a better understanding of why things happened.
Really? …. This is a first for me, especially as to how my alt was treated in spots.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (05/26/22 07:05 AM)
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Karagin
05/26/22 09:24 AM
70.118.172.64
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Using my phone to interact with this page sucks. Whoever told me that smartphones are better than a computer needs to go get some mental health care. Smartphones suck. Sorry for the rant, but the damn thing cut out words and dropped an entire sentence.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/22 12:16 PM
45.51.181.83
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The print says Katherine stole the thrones. Her pulling the LC portion out of the FC was a direct play to steal the LC throne. Once the war with the FWL was over, she did NOT even try to join back up. She killed the FC, not because of the incident, but for the power it would give her. The incident was just a good excuse.
Yvonne was manipulated by Katherine's use of the media to suggest she was ineffective. She was not confident in her abilities, but I did not see where she was unable to do the job properly.
Funny. Killing of noble houses and hundred of thousands to millions to sate her ego isn't enough? She had people killed for not just resisting her, but for not being falling on their knees to worship her.
Since I just finished watching Halo the tv series, Katherine Halsey seems to be a perfect example of Katherine Steiner. She would sacrifice the entire IS to gain and retain power over everything. There is no emotion, she fakes feelings towards others, only to use them.
Another funny irony. You said the reagent can give away the throne, yet you suggest they can not make decisions that you suggest only the leader can because they don't have the power to. I know this will go over your head, like almost everything else pointed out, but how is this possible?
Return the law degree. It isn't working. Upon her orders, shipments were delayed to worlds that required things. Whether medicine, extra food, or what ever. The orders went out under her signature.
Back to lying again? There is proof of her killing her mother. There was always proof of it. At no time was there never proof.
Executing millions in a realm that was stolen is not illegal? Accusations that were never proven in court, was used to justify killing them all. The act of killing your own mother without just cause is not illegal? Stealing another nations property isn't illegal? All those ships Katherine stole when she took the LC by deception is illegal. They were FS owned, and when she pulled the LC out of it, she stole all of them.
Victor did not start the war. It was not about regaining the throne either. It was to remove the blood thirsty, power mad sister from destroying even more lives in her bid to become lord over all. Her continued slaughter of innocent lives caused Victor to have to respond. The civil war was coming, and the only way it stood any sort of chance, was for him to lead it. Otherwise the military would have continued listening to the women that would kill them all out of spite.
Melissa had been bringing the two halves together with the clans still breathing down their necks. This upset Katherine, so had to be removed. And peace and security when Katherine ruled? Only suppression of the truth made it seem like that was even remotely true. She was destroying worlds. Not those actively helping the enemy, but just trying to stay out of the feud she had with her brother.
Again, glossing over facts. Katherines freedom was destroying millions of lives. Funny how she was purposefully destroying lives doing things, while you blame Victor for doing the same as he was learning. Once learned, those mistakes would not be made again. Katherine would still be killing millions to try and satisfy her lust for power. And Melissa was teaching Victor to avoid those mistakes. Another reason to have her removed.
Missing the point? The point was the government can run fine without a leader. The various department heads, or ministers, deal with keeping it running. For the IS, the government can be run from the cockpit of a mech. Orders to change things can be done. And you gloss over the fact that being in the field does not mean being in your mech 100 percent of the time. They do have CICs in the field where the commander stay at, as they are not in combat the entire time while in the field. They do have communications that continue to and from HQ on the home world. That is why they have their officers surrounding them to advise and update what is going on in their realm while in the field. Very little needs the leaders direct intervention to do. Ministers, Reagents and department head can handle most, if not all, of the running of the government. And the cop out of someone stealing the realm, well that is why department heads don't control more then their specific areas. SO the agriculture minister will not be able to access the navy, in order to attack another planet in the realm.
See? You said what I have been saying. The heads of departments decide what to do. The budget is set for them, and they try to do everything they can within the budget as well as trying to avoid spending it all. Reserves of money are needed, and what do you know. The leader is not needed to run the department. This is true for all the departments. The budget can be set by something like the general estate or equivalent in each realm. Much like Congress does today in the U.S.
It was pettiness that caused Victor to opposed his sisters grab for power? What canon book are you reading? Damn. You can't separate fact (canon) from the alt (fan fiction). So stop discussing canon things as you don't know what is fact anymore.
Not having ability and actively oppressing the subjects is not one and the same. Melissa's death prevented Victor from learning how to avoid those mistakes.
How much of the canon story was comprehended? You need a list of all those that she had imprisoned and executed without a trial? There isn't enough room in a post to deal with that. It is printed in the books.
Complain about the use of WMDs, and now defending their use, as it opposed your vision. And yet you will never see the irony here.
The hatred started with Katherine killing their mother. The entire time, she was sending out false implications like the supposed telling her to bury their mother without him being there. So many other things happening, with him returning home to find out she stole the entire FC, and was destroying lives. Yeah. he must have been born with it.
What alt are you talking about? I am not promoting any sort of alt, but saying what would have happened, had Katheren remained in power. She would have started wars with the others, even if it was just one nation at a time. I am not giving any sort of how, but the why is part of the discussion.
You do realize the phrase 'at war with' changes the entire concept of social diners and such? OH yeah. You don't read entire sentences, but just pick up a few words to respond to.
Let's see. Your alt is the only solution and is constantly shoved down throats, while others don't demand a full rewrite using their alt. You never got the concept before, so I doubt you will now.
None of the others are suggesting their take is canon, when it is clearly shown as an alt.
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ghostrider
05/26/22 12:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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I have had more issues with a long response that has me checking back to see what was said an in the context it was stated in.
So timeouts or no longer valid responses comes up a lot.
I also have a new phone that was an 'upgrade' to my last one, and it is a piece of donkey dung.
And from the looks of it, they are doing the same thing with the OS on the phones as windows has been doing. Send out the set up and fix issues later, not before it goes out.
It would explain why more phones are being hacked then ever.
And being on a PC doesn't mean you don't have issues with things being screwed up. It just cuts down on some of the issues.
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Karagin
05/26/22 04:38 PM
70.118.172.64
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One thing Stackpole did was not hide who was behind things, he made it clear, could he have done a better job and given us more, sure, but hey when he's busy trying to play God himself, it's kind of hard to care about the folks reading what you are selling. He is the only author that I heard of openly insulting a room of fans and not being pushed out of business as a writer.
The killing of Melissa was both turning points for Victor and Katherine, as I said for Victor it forced him to grow up, and for Katherine, it was just another stone on the path to the throne. She had nothing to lose and was working with the groups that wanted the LC out of the Fed-Com or fractured into smaller states...she also had relatives on both sides of the marriage that would aid her schemes because things were not all that great in the Fed-Suns. Many there hated the idea of the Fed-Com. As for Yvonne, she wasn't ready, but she did step up and try. Unlike the others, Katherine and Victor both played to their needs.
I am wondering if the novels even got read? Or skimmed and counted on the sourcebooks to fill in the missing blanks. Like using cliff notes to give a presentation that requries you to make items work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/22 04:59 PM
45.51.181.83
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You mean like reading the summery in the back of a book then writing a book report on the book?
The novels provide some help, but they still don't give the full information on what is going on. As the house books skip chunks, they still give you a majority of the end results.
The retcons thru crap in there that muddy the water. A few do change the entire outcome of some scenarios, such as infantry damage being changed. It was needed, but went too far. Now some battles that infantry lose easily, would have shifted to more damage to the enemy, possibly even changing the outcome of the battle. This is especially true in a campaign strung together. Light to no damage, now becomes units being down for repairs instead of being there for the next battle concept.
This is also true with vehicle crits chances and the actual crits. Having 1 in 2 chance of completely taking out a vehicle was harsh. With the changes, it is possible for vehicles to have survived shots to continue working.
I don't expect the canon story to rewrite this, but the fact remains, the changes do have a great effect on the story line.
Playing, I had more then a few tanks take less then 10 points of damage to the armor and was taken out of the game. So had more armor on them then a heavy mech can carry. Single point shows being the main thing that upset me.
Changing Aerofighters is another change that would influence battles. They were overpowered with the strafe, which I will support, to being a liability now. Just too likely to lose one in an atmosphere, where deploying them would be like sending a machinegun, slow APC against an Atlas.
I can agree that Victor was delayed in having to learn what he should have with Melissa alive, but given the clans, it is understandable. His first priority was dealing with them. As stated with governments running on their own, good people in the right position allows you to focus on things other then the government.
Melissa probably would have pulled some funding from the military or other big expenses, and put it into helping the masses. Civilian medicines being one such program to gain. But then those running the departments are not likely to have been changed. So funding being a main change.
The idea of reading between the lines and comprehensive reading says it all. The actual wording seems to have been ignored, so a vision was what never happened that should have, became the actual story. I have seen a few things that should have been changed, but not presented as canon or being forced to be canon. Some things can not be changed and still present something close to canon. Which is why I do see it won't be changed.
In the end, the story was written by TPTB, to move the storyline along the routes they wanted. For a general outcome, I can see and accept it. Doesn't mean I like it, but I didn't make the game or history.
More then a few things seemed to be throw it against the wall and see what sticks.
The point of entities helping destroy the FC is a good point, which doesn't seem to have been addressed. For their own reasons, a lot of them would want the break up sooner then later. Mainly those that lost power due to the merger. This is true in real life, as someone has to lose for others to gain.
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Karagin
05/26/22 05:05 PM
70.118.172.64
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On the groups working to take down the FedCom, they seemed to only focus on the LC side and then Liao and WoB, after things thawed some with the Combine, they tossed in the Sandvols' as being bigger hotheads than they normally would have been.
I agree we the fans can't change anything short of voting with our money as to what sells and all.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
05/26/22 10:09 PM
45.51.181.83
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It is odd, that the LC has almost as many people wanting to break up the LC as the FWL does. Is that how the developers were keeping the LC off balance?
As much as the DC was a threat, it seemed like the entire Steiner family was out to destroy the LC if they weren't in charge.
But I guess that could be said about game balance all around. They couldn't have the big fights between the DC and FS if the LC wasn't left out of it. Even before the merger, they should have done a lot more to shrink the DC borders. I would guess the social generals was a big part of this ploy.
I wonder what would have happened if Ryan was able to take control. Would Brewer side with him, or fight with all of Defiance's resources? I would think fight.
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Requiem
05/26/22 10:44 PM
101.185.5.51
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Quote:
The print says Katherine stole the thrones
Stealing is taking another’s property without permission or legal right and without the intention of its return.
In both cases in the application of the definition they are not applicable as she was provided permission in both cases.
Katherine was provided permission through the Estates General, and by the will of the people to assume the role as their Archon. Secondly, Yvonne yielded the throne of First Princess.
QED – Katherine did not steal anything!
People can say this over-and-over again, however, Truth Wins – it is just semantics and positioning by those who just want to discredit her due to their own petty and vindictiveness when Victor’s poor ploy initiated a War. How many times have we seen these same tactics of applying labels to political rivals in an attempt to bring them low – didn’t work now and won’t work in the far future as it is a ploy of those with no real intellect, drive, and a will to find a better solution to problems at hand.
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Funny. Killing of noble houses and hundreds of thousands to millions to sate her ego isn’t enough?
Throwing around statements with no proof equates to just a false premise – can I please suggest in the future when you feel like adding a statement like this you also attack a link to the wiki page so that we understand the veracity of the statement.
Thus can you please now provide a link to page which supports this statement.
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There is no emotion, she fakes feelings towards others, only to use them.
Sorry but rather than discrediting Katherine, you have just complemented her.
A ruler must be able to partition their emotions when necessary – how else are they to remain sane when they send how many millions off to war?
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Regent
As stated above in the absence of the monarch (for what ever reason) the Regent has full executive power over everything as they are the proxy ruler!
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Upon her orders
And as stated many times you require evidence when it comes to slandering / enforcing charges. Thus can your PC or even anyone within the media locate said evidence to which she has placed her signature?
She is far too careful!
So, the answer is no, there is no evidence and as such there can be no charges levied against the Archon.
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Back to lying again? There is proof of her killing her mother. There was always proof of it. At no time was there never proof.
And as stated above if you are going to make baseless acquisitions, please supply a link or provide concrete proof, such as a notation (Book name and page no.) as well as a copy of what was written in quotation.
There has never been and will never be any proof – if there was then Victor would have used it n a court of law against his sister, as he never did the idea that there was proof now becomes a point of extreme derision.
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Executing millions in a realm that was stolen is not illegal?
Once again please provide a link otherwise this is just a baseless acquisition.
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All those ships Katherine stole when she took the LC by deception is illegal
You do realise that these ships were engaged in normal commerce practices when the succession occurred?
And you do realise that the head of state has the right to enact taxation policy within their own realm?
Also how can be accused of stealing – when as the definition above states it is for the intention of never returning them – when she did return them!
Thus, she is within her remit to apply an exit fee to Federated Suns Ships when they cross the border as it is LEGAL. There is no Star League version of Law stating that, “No charge may be levied upon foreign ships by reason of their passage through the territorial sea.” (Article 26 – Part II Territorial Sea and Continuous Zone – United Nations) that continues to exist. The Star League is dead and gone at this stage.
https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm
What this shows is just sour grapes based upon individual personal opinion to the fact that she applied an exit fee upon these ships – it has no basis in the reality.
Some may call it ransom due to sour grapes at having to pay the fee whereas others recognise statecraft would say it is just a taxation Levey – just the same way one country places a levy on another’s goods for reason of protecting their internal corporations etc. (agriculture).
This statement, therefore, is completely in error.
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Victor did not start the war.
Then what was he doing in front of the camera when he most definitely did declare war?
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Chapter 19 Patriots and Tyrants by Loren L. Coleman – Page 145 Onwards …
Deschuttes, Mogyorod
Melissia Theatre
Lyran Alliance
8 December 3062
“Good citizens of the Federated Commonwealth, I could wish many things for us. That the great union of two nations which my parents forged would not have founded. That I would never have found it necessary to leave you while fighting to end the Clan invasion. That my sister, Katherine, could have quelled her hunger for power, no matter the price. But wishing will not make it so. Such dreams have already died and any hope I might have had for peace between the to realms I once led died with my brother Arthur, who was killed two days ago in a vicious terrorist attack.
Arthur was a soldier, a good man, and he was learning to become a leader of men, women, and worlds. For that, someone decided that he had to die. Arthur’s death convinces me that my duty to protect the Commonwealth can no longer be denied. The troubles on Solaris were a harbinger of what has come, and Arthur’s violent death underscores the fighting already taking place on worlds such as Kathil, Robinson, and Kentares.
His death will not be in vain. No longer will an unfit and unjust ruler sit on the throne of the Federated Suns and Lyran Alliance, one who has seen fit to bring violence against her own family, betraying the memory of our father, our mother, and the trust of the people of both realms. There is blood on Katherine’s hands, and no amount of propaganda will wash them clean.
None of us wishes to see more conflict, but we can no longer ignore the problems plaguing us. Now we must live with the results, however painful, as we acknowledge the irreconcilable differences that continue to divide my sister from me. It is no longer possible for me to stand back in the interests of peace. The time has come, my people, where no other choice remains.
None, but war!
This mandate has been pressed upon me by Katherine’s tyrannical actions, and by the sacrifices of patriots already fighting on the worlds of Kathil, Benet, Kentares, Demeter, Bromhead, and others yet unreported. We will resist with any and all means at our disposal the efforts to subjugate and enslave our freedoms. We fight with the truth on our side, and we simply ask that everyone listen and judge accordingly.
In the end, I know we shall be victorious, re-establishing a trustworthy and accountable, government among our people, worlds, and nations.”
Can I ask one question here is two days a lengthy enough time to conduct an effective investigation into Arthus’s supposed assassination to determine Katherine’s guilt and thus declare war on her? As it appears that Victor was looking for any excuse no matter how trivial to declare war on her.
What can be comprehended from this diatribe is that Victor wanted to return to war, being the warmonger he is, and this was the perfect excuse!
I would also like to ask in the near future when Victor does learn that Arthur was not assassinated by Katherine, but was kidnapped by WOB, does he say “Oops my bad”, does he even have a second of regret that he deposed her for the wrong reasons and he also sentenced her to life in the Clans for totally the wrong reason. As his whole reason, the catalyst, for going to war has now been verified as a Lie!
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Melissa had been bringing the two halves together with the clans still breathing down their necks. This upset Katherine, so had to be removed. And peace and security when Katherine ruled? Only suppression of the truth made it seem like that was even remotely true. She was destroying worlds. Not those actively helping the enemy, but just trying to stay out of the feud she had with her brother.
I am sorry but what? …. How does this make any sense? Can you perhaps re-write so as to make it bit more legible.
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Katherine’s freedom was destroying millions of lives.
Sorry but at the start of Civil War she is the rightful ruler of the re-formed Federated Commonwealth, as such those local lords who initiated rebellion are traitors and should be put down.
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The point was the government can run fine without the leader.
You do realise one massive error with this – how are you going to pay anyone when the only person who can authorize the transfer of funds from the Reserve Bank, to the Government Departments (Including the military), Corporations and Individuals is not there to authorise it?
So, unless the Regent is there or the Liege Lord no one is going to get paid any time soon.
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Much like Congress does today in the US
The president submits a budget to Congress by the first Monday in February every year. The budget contains estimates of federal government income and spending for the upcoming fiscal year and also recommends funding levels for the federal government. Congress then must pass appropriations bills based on the president's recommendations and Congressional priorities. If Congress does not pass all appropriations measures by the start of the fiscal year (October 1), it has to enact a continuing resolution to keep the government running.
If Congress can't agree on 12 separate bills, it can pass an Omnibus bill with funding for multiple areas. If the budget is not completed by the new fiscal year, Congress must pass a continuing resolution authorizing temporary funding at the previous year's levels or face a government shutdown.
Can I please suggest you binge watch the West Wing – as most of this was covered within – and I am not even a US citizen and even I know how the US government works. Thanks.
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It was pettiness that caused Victor to oppose his sister’s grab for power?
Spending two days to come to the conclusion the Katherine killed Arthur looks like being petty to me.
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Melissa’s death prevented Victor from learning how to avoid those mistakes.
Really? How about not learning it from his parents when he was growing up – did no one talk to him about statecraft at the breakfast table in an effort to make all the children understand their duty?
Sorry but once again the plot has left the reservation called logic.
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You need a list of all those that she had imprisoned and executed without trial
How about the main individuals or even better how about the wiki page that confirms this or even the book and page number.
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I am not promoting any sort of alt, but saying what would have happened, had Katheren remained in power.
That which is not canon is an Alt.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
05/26/22 11:25 PM
70.118.172.64
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I think we would a splintering of things. Each group wanted its version. Now each House had its own internal issue, be it rebellious nobles or corperations or family issues. Something was always there to keep them from getting that one small advantage over the others.
Some of the Steiner's did seem set to burn it down or cripple things if they weren't in charge. That was shown with how Melessia's own mother was attacked after her coup to remove her uncle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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l0rDn0o8sKiLlZ
05/27/22 12:47 AM
73.251.251.186
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--- This thread is over half a year old and 233 replies long and I still have no idea where it's supposed to be going. What is the intended resolution here? What is trying to be achieved and dare I even ask... why? Isn't this all made up fantasy? How is there so much bickering to be had, and indeed so passionately at that? This thread is really quite the trip and I for one am very excited to see what happens next.
"Woad Raider, kill things today."
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ghostrider
05/27/22 11:34 AM
45.51.181.83
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The truth is, Katherine killed her mother to steal the LC throne. That is the truth. This wins over all. You suggest that a reagent can give away another persons throne. Since when has this been legal?
So a reagent can run a government when the actual leader is away? Wow. Guess that confirms a nation does not need to have it's leader around to run.
The print said there was evidence of the crimes she committed. This is written in a few places. Actually read the books, instead of searching thru the wiki and trying to point out flaws in their entries. There was no trial for removing Victor or even confirming all the rumors Katherine thru at him. So by your logic, none of that is true.
Yet another false statement. Most of those ships were there from transporting FS troops to the front lines with the clans. The very thing you said needed to be much larger then it was. Remember, commerce is not that big, so why would thousands of ships be there? To transport dozens of Regiments as well as RCTs.
When she split up the FC, she took those ships illegally. Not all were returned, and those that were, were sold back to the FS. This is extortion, as those ships were there with troops to fight the enemy the LC could not defeat. It was the break up, done without any prior warning, that had those ships doing their lawful jobs. Her seizure of them made sure the troops stationed in the LC could not return peacefully to the FS with their ships. This is theft. This would not have happened if Melissa wasn't killed.
What authority did Victor have to do the investigation? It was an internal affair in the FS. He was no longer part of the FS, so could not properly investigate it. Given the long line of Katherine's assaults and executions of other powerful members in the FS/LC, he knew civil war was already being waged, but only by Katherine's forces. He knew that those being killed for no reason other then Katherine wanted no one to have a voice of their own, he had no choice but to oppose the tyrannical monster his sister had become.
Killing her mother wasn't because of petty jealousy? Without this one event, Victor would not have been so angry at Katherine. The kidnapping was not the reason why Victor removed Katherine, it was the last straw of events. He was going to do so, but the kidnapping caused him to do so sooner.
Doesn't change the fact Melissa was teaching Victor how to run the nation, and Katherine killed her to stop that.
The issue is someone is yet again trying to push their alt into being the only canon solution. They have not done much but shown they are here to troll, and I am an idiot for continuing to try and get them to use canon facts when discussing canon issues. A few what ifs are thrown in, and immediately said to be some alt.
As canon things were discussed, things that never happened were thrown in, with the concept of them being canon. Yet when we show they are not, more non canon facts are thrown in to continue the first lie. If people wanted to deal with the alt, then they would go to the threads that has the alt information being posted. My guess is that no one goes, so the person is disrupting this and other threads were conversations of what did happen, should have, or could have, without demanding their vision be the only one. And I do understand the irony, as I seem to be one that does demand a few things.
The thread will probably be locked, like the others for the same reason. Anyone just getting into Battletech, and visiting here will have the wrong information, as the alt items are presented as canon. This is the reason I continue to counter the false statements as much as possible.
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Requiem
05/27/22 05:06 PM
101.185.5.51
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The truth is, Katherine killed her mother to steal the LC throne.
I knew we would be back to this old chestnut.
First, if the books (and unfortunately some of wiki) were not so poorly written, when it comes to certain absolutism words i.e. implicated – shown that an individual to be involved in a crime or cover up any other loose ends from her murder of her mother … it is clear to anyone that Victor, Francesca Jenkins and Agent Curaitis only have suppositions when it comes this crime, there is no proof, this is why Jenkins and Curaitis are out there – to find the proof.
So here we are as readers, reading a very poorly written novel that harps back to a boy’s own adventure book of the late 1800’s / early 1900’s / Dime Novel writing in which the authors, being poor examples of their group, force the reader into no doubt as to whom the goodies are and at the same time who the evil protagonists are …
Thus the reader ‘must’ accept this as being true and genuine without being questioned or doubted i.e. they force you the reader to accept their version of events at face value!
That said, however, if you actually show a modicum of intelligence and ask yourself questions as to the veracity of the author’s statements it quickly becomes clear that that a more seasoned author could have left the reader with doubts as to Katherine’s involvement to the very end – you could be asking yourself all the way through all these novels did she really commit this heinous crime and only at the end could there have been an answer or even then leave it open to interpretation – an eternal unknown to be dated by fans in perpetuity, and in so doing obtain a far more satisfactory story …
I have, however, attempted to demonstrate one clear point, how does your PC know she committed this crime? – the simple answer is your PC character doesn’t know, and will never know – as far as anyone is concerned her murderer goes unknown as one of the great mysteries of the Battletech universe, the same as the Minnesota Tribe or the Wolverines …
The problem is that individuals want to accept everything at face value and refuse to question, but still the question remains – as a DM you can accept everything at face value as that is your prerogative.
However as a PC character you cannot accept what the writers stated at face value – for the first time your character can only act upon the information supplied to them.
Thus as a PC I asked how do you know – and the answer that came back is through your characters beliefs in individuals – in being a Lyran / pro Katherine or Suns pro Victor to the many other factions …
And as Devil’s Advocate I have clearly shown that in any modern society you will require that pesky attribute called absolute proof to convict and prove her guilt. That said – no proof was ever discovered and by this cornerstone of modern society we the people must accept that with a verdict she is innocent.
That is unless you want to join the fringe group rioters on the corner screaming she is guilty in the absence of all proof.
As shown above the idea that she stole either of the Thrones is ludicrous as in both cases she was provided with the crown and the right to rule.
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You suggest that a reagent can give away another person’s throne. Since when has this been legal?
Since forever – classic example Richard I of England on his quest to the Holy Land leaves William Longchamp as Regent. However this does not sit well with our villain of the story Prince John who kicks Longchamp out and decides to rule in Richard’s absence – which will require a hefty ransom when he is kidnapped on the way home.
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Wow. Guess that confirms a nation does not need to have it's leader around to run.
Wow. Guess that confirms that in the absence of a ruler a Regent is required just as there is a President there to is a Vice-President.
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So by your logic, none of that is true.
Victor is a big boy and in the Com-guard, I really do not think he cares what people call him – however, his direct actions led to some very undeniable events and based upon these events people can make accusations …
Just as Katherine’s actions have led to people making accusations about her …
The difference lies in the proof – yes there is proof that Victor’s actions towards Joshua Marik led to a war – no there is no proof Katherine killed her mother ….
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Yet another false statement. Most of those ships were there from transporting FS troops to the front lines with the clans.
You do realize that this is normal commercial behaviour – being the transport of cargo or military units it is all just normal commercial behaviour for a ships captain. As either way your going to get paid.
So the ships being there is irrelevant – the only thing that matters is that Katherine tacked on an exit fee and no this is not extortion! Otherwise can we start re-writing the history of some industrialized countries who wished rather than to protect their own farmers they extorted foreign countries just because …
This will go down well in the History books!
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he had no choice but to oppose the tyrannical monster his sister had become.
First Victor at this point was Com-Guard to which there is supposed to be non-interference clause – which he promptly boke to sake his lust for war!
Thus he had absolutely no right whatsoever to interfere.
Secondly two days to conduct an investigation is a pitifully short time frame to come to a decision.
Thus yes this was all on gut feeling that Katherine was guilty – there was never any proof!
Thus the person acting as the tyrant is not Katherine but Victor through forcing his suppositions onto the FC in order to start a war.
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The kidnapping was not the reason why Victor removed Katherine
And yet the speech he gave, as noted above, confirms this as the reason why the civil war commenced.
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Doesn't change the fact Melissa was teaching Victor how to run the nation, and Katherine killed her to stop that.
Question – was these education packages through remote learning courses or through individual HPG messages? As Victor was in the military light years distant at the time and Katherine was with her mother!
So if it was to stop one individual learning by the other then it was Victor who killed his mother to stop Melissa teaching Katherine how to run the FC.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/27/22 07:16 PM
45.51.181.83
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The books are wrong when they say Katherine killed Melissa? It was printed when she gave the order, as well as planned out for her to be called out of the gathering before she was killed, as well as hiring the assassin and helping him escape is not telling straight up saying Katherine ordered the assassination, then out of here. This is the last out right lie.
You suggest that a reagent can give away another person’s throne. Since when has this been legal?
Since forever – classic example Richard I of England on his quest to the Holy Land leaves William Longchamp as Regent. However this does not sit well with our villain of the story Prince John who kicks Longchamp out and decides to rule in Richard’s absence – which will require a hefty ransom when he is kidnapped on the way home.
How does this answer the question? John steals the throne. it is not given away by a reagent. It is not legal. Again most bs thrown up that has nothing to do with statements.
Guess that confirms you not reading or comprehending the statement about the ruler is not needed as there are others that run the government without their input. Hmmm. A reagent. Does this include ministers and department heads ordered to deal with issues while a leader is out of touch? Isn't this what happens when the heir is not old enough to take the throne? Communications still happen in the field. So yet again, it shows a lack of reading what is there.
Just because the writers say Katherine killed he mother, and the proof still left was enough to convince, but not convict Katherine, does not mean she is innocent. Both in story and especially out of story.
The assassination was carried out by the individual who went under the alias Dancing Joker. He had been hired by Ryan Steiner and Katherine Steiner-Davion.
She then contracted an assassin to kill her mother, which he did by means of a bomb in 3055. Katherine subtly implicated Victor and ascribed to him the motivation that he wished to become Archon-Prince.
Yeah. The wiki is not directly saying she was the one who ordered the strike on her mother. Again, full lies to try and sell your alt views.
Where does it say the ships used to transport the military units were commercial ships? More then a few units have their own assigned directly to the unit.
There was no exit fee. She seized them all. And I seriously doubt they retconned this in.
Still glossing over events that happened before the kidnapping? She was destroying anyone that didn't worship the ground she walked on. Even a single remark that she was not the greatest was enough to get the secret police to remove them. If they were powerful, they would have military units drop and start shooting. The kidnapping was the last straw, not anywhere close to the only one.
The speech was given to tell all that opposed Katherine, that he was going to face her militarily, to end her terror reign. It gave those people a rallying call. But this requires comprehending the issues over time.
So if it was to stop one individual learning by the other then it was Victor who killed his mother to stop Melissa teaching Katherine how to run the FC.
This shows why most people opposed your views of things. Katherine was only in a position to rule if Victor was dead. As outright assassinating him would indeed show Katherine's hand, she went on to use the media to undermine things, but implication and out right lies to make Victor look worse then what he was. Victor finally figured out he had to learn more then just battles when his father died. Katherine seen this and removed that factor as well as implying Victor was the one that did it. The only reason why people backed Katherine is they did not know Melissa tried to step down when Hanse died, so the reason for assassinating her was not remotely correct.
And with this, you are trying to suggest Katherine is innocent by reason of insanity, yet she has shown no signs of it with planning the entire situation.
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ghostrider
05/27/22 11:01 PM
45.51.181.83
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What book and page number has the information that Katherine did not have her mother assassinated?
What book and page number does it say that Katherine was not power mad, and would not use or have killed anyone that would stand in her way to grab even more power?
Where do we get this new book that has the only viable solution to the game? The one that has all logic flaws removed, yet continues to follow canon.
This new book doesn't exist? What a shock. So everything being argued has no actual proof of existence in any sort of print.
I guess that sums up what we have been trying to say for a while.
That the made up, fan fiction is NOT proof of a better solution, as no one other then the person claiming it is, can even begin to read it to verify the statements.
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Requiem
05/28/22 07:00 AM
101.185.5.51
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The books are wrong when they say Katherine killed Melissa?
The books do say that Katherine had Melissa assassinated, however, this is from the point of view of those who read the novels – the DMs.
However, and this is a very big however, from the point of view of all PCs, and this also includes Victor, there is a complete and utter absence of any evidence to prove a causal link between that of Katherine and the assassination.
If you had actually comprehended what was written you would realize that Victor is only utilizing an assumption (his gut feelings) that he and his team cooked up as to Katherine’s Guilt.
THIS IS THE PROBLEM – EVERYONE WANTS TO TRANSCRIBE THEIR KNOWLEDGE FROM THE NOVELS TO THAT OF THEIR PCS WITHIN THE GAME – GUESS WHAT YOU CANNOT DO THIS!
So you can yell and scream as much as you want that Katherine assassinated her mother because all the novels says she did this – However, in the BattleTech Game World YOU DO NOT HAVE ACESS TO THIS INFORMATION! NOT EVEN VICTOR HAS ANY PROOF!
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It was printed when she gave the order, …..
You do realise that this was never printed, and as stated many time when you are going to make an outlandish statement please provide a quote indicating the book and page number to back it up …
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John steals the throne. it is not given away by a reagent. It is not legal.
You do realize that John is a price of the Realm? Guess who decides what is legal and not until Richard is ransomed and again after Richard dies … up until Runnymede …
Or did you forget this is Feudalism!
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Guess that confirms you not reading or comprehending the statement about the ruler is not needed as there are others that run the government without their input.
Guess this confirms that you have yet to understand the inner workings of a modern government, and never bothered to even research the topic regarding the necessity of maintaining either a Regent or a Head of State. If you did you would realise that without this individual the entire government would cease to function.
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Where does it say the ships used to transport the military units were commercial ships?
Where does it transcribe them to the merchant navy?
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She was destroying anyone that didn't worship the ground she walked on. Even a single remark that she was not the greatest was enough to get the secret police to remove them.
Again wit the false remarks – if you are going to add them can you at least provide the source material?
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The speech was given to tell all that opposed Katherine, that he was going to face her militarily,
Post dated 05/26/12 12:16PM – “Victor did not start the War”
And what about the reason for starting the war?
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As outright assassinating him would indeed show Katherine's hand
And yet how many times was the Joker able to get away with an assassination?
Thus what is the probability he could have assassinated Victor and gotten away with it – better than even money?
This is the problem with the writers they believe that Katherine wants to play with Victor like a Cat with a mouse – rather than being her father’s daughter who would go straight for your neck, so you had better be ready or she will just destroy you outright from the get go!
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And with this, you are trying to suggest Katherine is innocent by reason of insanity, yet she has shown no signs of it with planning the entire situation.
Can you please point out where I made this assumption?
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Where do we get this new book
I see you did not comprehend that you are supposed to reference existing books from which you knowledge of BattleTech originated.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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