Requiem
06/01/22 07:57 PM
101.185.10.60
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Question – how can two clans form a Star League? As does this mean that the FC could have formed a rump star league also?
Question – given all the evidence as to what the first star league represented – books, videos etc – How can the Clans even say, with a straight face, that they are forming a Star League (as per first) when it is clear they have absolutely no idea what the Star League is?
Question – does this mean the Clans will undergo a reformation to what they should be ie. SLDF?
Question – What are TPTB thinking in going down this path – do they even understand who and what the Clans truly represent - as this is setting the game up for another Jihad!
All I can say is that I am thankful for creating my own Alt. as this history has completely gone off the rails (in my opinion).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/02/22 01:57 AM)
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cernvidx
06/18/22 06:50 AM
122.163.235.132
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i dont know the answers
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Frabby
06/18/22 09:58 AM
84.185.69.197
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The Clans hold that the first one of them to conquer Terra, aka the ilClan, will reform and assume leadership of the Star League.
Prove them wrong.
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ghostrider
06/18/22 11:34 AM
45.51.181.83
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Could it be that the leaders of the IS didn't care about the SL? That they realized that only full conquest would allow something like that to survive, at least until the clans forced cooperation among them houses? Anyone can claim to form such a union, but actually making it work is the issue.
As with everything in the world, you form things to your views. The SL changed several times with each leader in charge. Some programs were ended, while others were instituted, so suggesting the SL was the same for the entire history of it is missing more then a few facts. The fact the TH and the FWL started the whole SL concept rolling tells this. Do you think the SL didn't change in order to get the other houses aboard? Some basic concepts survived, but modified with each new law.
The clans are going to make the SLDF in their image. The name is all that matters. How they operate compared to what people think will be different. They can very much continue the way of the clans, and still become the SLDF. The ideals of what you think they should be won't match.
The vision of TPTB are going to be what they want. Whether it matches your vision doesn't matter, as you will buy the books no matter what. They understand who and what the clans are, as they created them. Again, whether you agree or not doesn't matter. They will make the game their way. Part of the pleasure of owning the company.
Don't praise the logic ridden vision called the alt so much, as it still follows the logic ridden canon storyline, with a few changes. As the story line in the alt still seems to follow canon past points that would have changed the future, and didn't shows this.
Now, put up the link to where people can find this alt storyline, as then they can use it to pick apart the logic issues there. So far, only one person knows much about it.
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Karagin
06/18/22 11:43 AM
70.118.172.64
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Can I argue that the SL is a sham since it failed to live up to its governing principles from day one? And each successor has failed to live up to the charter as well? Did we mention that?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/18/22 01:40 PM
1.147.104.152
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They understand who and what the clans are, as they created them. Again, whether you agree or not doesn't matter. They will make the game their way. Part of the pleasure of owning the company.
Whist simultaneously running the company into the grave.
This is why I refuse to purchase any book past a certain point now – the story line is no longer viable or worth reading, as I will now stay in my own Alt.
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put up the link to where people can find this alt storyline
Why? when considering all past attempts at creating a discussion have failed.
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the SL is a sham since it failed to live up to its governing principles from day one?
I hope everyone realizes that the SL was formed purely as an economic union – similar to the EU.
I would also like to point out that no one has ever explained why a military ruler of a vast empire would allow a jumped up second rate realm like the TH, and their “First Lord” to assume total control as this completely goes against the guiding principles of military dictatorship.
Especially when you realize that the past two leaders have not spent a dime on military R&D as the money has all gone to intelligence and diplomatic agencies.
Also, once more I have to ask where were the Lawyers when the SL was established as canon version of the SL can only be described as beyond rational understanding from the point of view of any House Lord.
In all reality if you want a viable SL then it must come from the point of view of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table and over time devolves into the mess of the Battle of Camlann all else is devoid of any reality when discussing the SL and the SLDF.
Thus making the Clans and the third SL a complete and utter sham of an idea, as any historian would laugh at the Clan’s SL as being the antithesis to the original …
As the original should concern freedom and human rights for all, whereas for the clans it is total repression and the worst form of dictatorship ever devised.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
06/18/22 03:24 PM
70.118.172.64
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Any reformed Star League should be a rally point for the other Houses and powers to unite to stop it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/18/22 06:47 PM
45.51.181.83
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Why would a military ruler of a vast empire allow a second rate realm to take over?
This shows a complete lack of understanding of the game during that time frame.
First off, the only military ruler during that time frame was house Kurita. All the others were basically political governments. The little fighting that did happen was to bring about the 5 large houses. After that, most of them were looking to the SL to keep them safe. The TH/SL was the technological leader at the time, so they joined up to ride the coat tails of the research of the SL in order to catch up.
Given the question of this really makes a person wonder if any understanding of that time frame was there.
That is like asking why any state would allow another state to run the government. This includes the entire world, not the U.S. as the states wording would suggest. The U.K. was brought together by opposing factions, as well as Rome and others. Some were conquered, so that is a point, but most joined together for other purposes then conquest.
The King Arthur example is a prime example of the very thing argued against. Why would the knights come together under the rule of one person, while they each ruled separate counties? But the irony here will be missed.
As for the website, it shows there is no real concept of the alt. The discussions brought here do not reflect a fully defined concept that others can read and understand. So until there is, the alt appears to be a completely false front to argue unknown concepts as facts.
As Frabby pointed out, the clans had their goal to create a new star league with one of them in charge. As they hold Terra, they can claim the mantle because of the location of the original SL capital is theirs.
Will the others fall in line? Very doubtful, but they can claim all they want.
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Karagin
06/18/22 09:35 PM
70.118.172.64
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Some will fall in line, because of tradition and all that others will say screw it and fight because they want to be the top dog and some will be like uhmm, yeah not our monkey so not our circus and do their own thing. The Clans have the same failings as the rest of the Inner Sphere. The Homeworld Clans are not going to bow down to the Wolves and so there is that issue and the current issues with the Wolf Empire or whatever it's going to end up as means more of the same old same old. That is if we can get decent writing and not a rehash of the Dark Age single lance beats up things and plot armor units win the day without even trying hard kind of stuff.
The Alt is just that an Alt, it's not canon. It's not even remotely close to being important and yet here we all are giving him the 15 minutes of time to fix the issue of his Alt. Issues that we have pointed out time and again to him. I am starting to wonder if he understands that once you make changes to the things then the canon outcomes are no longer possible as written and would be different results? Well for the want of a nail...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/18/22 10:53 PM
1.147.104.152
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This shows a complete lack of understanding of the game during that time frame.
TH
Deborah Cameron 2501 – 2542 – Aggressive Peacemaking
Joseph Camron 2542 –2549 Continuation of the Aggressive Peacemaking policy
For the past 48 years no real military R&D.
Raw materials desperately required – future requirement – strip mining
Hence ability to manufacture any sizeable military is a no go.
FWL Founded 2271
CC Founded 2310
LC Founded 2341
DC Founded 2319
FS Formed 2314
Fully functioning empires with fully functioning militaries.
By the time of the SL, therefore, all empires have been in existence for 200 years.
Q.E.D. Kurita was NOT the only military ruler.
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most of them were looking to the SL to keep them safe.
Sorry but no – the SL was supposed to end the age of war via economic cooperation.
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The TH/SL was the technological leader at the time
Again this cannot be considered correct as the TH does not have the resources as well as the fact that they have not spent a dime on military R&D as well as expanding / maintaining their military for the past 48 years (as noted above).
So TPTB created an underlining story and then completely ignored it because it became an obstruction to their overarching story.
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they joined up to ride the coat tails of the research of the SL in order to catch up.
Then why did they put up with the Mother Doctrine which restricted the dissemination of advanced technologies?
If the aim is to advance the entire SL technologically then the Mother Doctrine must not be allowed to exist!
i.e. you want me to join the SL I want full access to ALL technology as well as the removal of all export restrictions – i.e. a free trade zone etc.
Again this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding as to economic politics via trade.
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That is like asking why any state would allow another state to run the government.
You do realize that this is not about states within a single country that want to be added dur to the fact they want economic prosperity - it is about empires with hundreds of worlds and billions of citizens each maintaining vast military industrial facilities and who’s economies are well established and thriving.
Thus making this comparison mute.
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The U.K. was brought together by opposing factions
Actually it was brought together by succession due to the death of one monarch and the subsequent identification of their heir.
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Some were conquered
At what point did the TH conquer any House?
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Why would the knights come together under the rule of one person, while they each ruled separate counties?
Please read as to the what the round table represented as well as what Camelot represented.
But again the irony here will be missed.
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it shows there is no real concept of the alt.
How can arguments be made when I have never presented the end form of my alt – and I have no intention of ever posing it?
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the clans had their goal to create a new star league with one of them in charge. As they hold Terra
Thus any military that can hold Terra from this point forward can state I am the Star League whist every other military just sits back and laughs as the Star League requires a unity of ALL states other wise it is just a rump parliament with no mandate from the people. Any fool can make this assumption. Until every IS great House etc acknowledges this it is just a pointless and pathetic statement by a child screaming that she/he is king of the hill just because!
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Well for the want of a nail...
I created a vastly superior story that actually makes sense.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/22 12:07 AM
45.51.181.83
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Wasn't it said that research is hit and miss on what does get a breakthru? It could be years before anything happens or a few months. As I have not seen anything that resembles a budget for the SL in any timeframe, the supposition is horrible here.
The concept of not having raw materials was the original concept of the TH, but in recent posts it was shown this is not the case. The idea that the entire set of systems the TH had was completely out of resources has been shown as bs, along with not having enough food. And if they were completely out of resources, how did they build so much? It is highly unlikely the other realms provided the materials for the amount of items the TH/SL built.
What definition are you using for military ruler? The one commonly used as is that they used military force to make all deals, with out any political give and take. The only one that was formed from military conquests was the DC. Even the CC had used politics to come together.
To end the age of weapons, someone has to be the police force of the IS. Who was that?
Right back to the falsehoods: Again this cannot be considered correct as the TH does not have the resources as well as the fact that they have not spent a dime on military R&D as well as expanding / maintaining their military for the past 48 years (as noted above).
The TH WAS the technological leader of the IS, as no one had the tech the TH had. That was why some joined up. To gain that technology. Doesn't matter if others had spent more on tech, the houses were playing catch up to come close to what the TH had.
Can't figure out that the SL lied to the others, by waving the tech in front of the houses in order to get them to sign, but had no intention to allow them that tech?
Funny how this applies to your response: Again this demonstrates a complete lack of understanding as to economic politics via trade.
You promise things you don't intend on following thru with, to get others to sign on. I guess that doesn't register in your view.
Miss this statement: This includes the entire world, not the U.S. as the states wording would suggest. ? First off, the states of the U.S. were not part of a single country before the revolutionary war. This goes for the countries in Europe as well. The EU and AU are both political bodies that formed from countries joining up to allow someone to coordinate control over the entire continent. SO again, not reading the whole statement and missing the context.
How many counties/cities were conquered in history to become part of a nation? Most of Europe and Asia, as well as Africa, and even parts of south America. This is also true with the U.S. as the native Americans were subjected to being conquered. Maybe reviewing history is needed. That was part of the paragraph saying about world history, not the future of the game. Context yet again.
And yet again, fictional writings being pushed forward as reality. In the book, only Arthur was king or leader of any nation, and when he started, he was not even that. The rest were used to subject other kingdoms and nations to be part of the nation created.
More of the same crap? Your own statements were the alt was the only viable solution to the game story, yet now you are saying it isn't even done? How is it the only solution if it changes every time a point is brought up?
Wake up to reality. ANY of the houses or even small companies could claim the title of First Lord of the SL at any time in the history of the game. If anyone actually does anything but laugh is the real question of that.
There is only one person that has seen this story, so vastly superior, yet constantly changed doesn't make sense. It is based and will never remove itself from, a story that doesn't make sense according to the person that has based their story on a faulty story. Just as claiming the SL mantle, anyone can claim their idea is superior, yet without seeing the actual material, that claim falls short. Now drop the constant alt line until there is something anyone can read besides you. Show the website to read it. I can say my view is beyond superior, but without proof, it is all Bovine Excrement.
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Requiem
06/19/22 04:59 AM
1.147.104.152
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Wasn't it said that research is hit and miss on what does get a breakthrough?
Yes it is a game of hit and miss – However, it is a permanent miss when research funding has been removed as without funding there is no research to begin with.
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The concept of not having raw materials was the original concept of the TH, but in recent posts it was shown this is not the case.
And yet the replacement of raw materials, as written, was described as being sourced from the periphery post-unification war.
Also the idea of where, and what they were manufacturing, from these vast TH manufactory facilities resides were never made evident so can someone point out where these vast facilities are?
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What definition are you using for military ruler?
Semantics
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To end the age of weapons, someone has to be the police force of the IS. Who was that?
Sorry but I have to laugh now – at no point within the entire history of the IS has there been an age to end weapons.
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The TH WAS the technological leader of the IS
In all fields?
If this is the case then every lawyer, economist etc. within every house would have stipulated multiple clauses within their individual acceptance of the SL documents to ensure technological parity will be enforced (dissemination of technology) to ensure every house will receive advanced tech.
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Can't figure out that the SL lied to the others
Can’t figure out that if the TH lied about the dissemination of advanced tech this would have been an automatic dissolution of the SL clause!
Which demonstrates that the writing is back to being a plebian boy-own adventure book of the late 1800’s (for the prepubescent) without any real substance to underpin what should be basic economics.
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You promise things you don't intend on following thru with, to get others to sign on. I guess that doesn't register in your view.
If the TH do not follow through, then their allies loose all trust and decide to take their bat and ball and go home as the TH has now demonstrated that it is completely untrustworthy.
In the real world you make a promise you will have to follow through …
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The EU and AU are both political bodies that formed from countries joining up to allow someone to coordinate control over the entire continent.
The European Union was created to ensure peace, prosperity, and stability on the continent – it does NOT control the individual governments of its member states.
As for the African Union this was formed to defend the sovereign states, eradicate colonialism, promote cooperation etc. guess how well that worked out?
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How many counties/cities were conquered in history to become part of a nation?
Since when did the TH invade and conquer any great House other than those within the Periphery?
Thus the great Houses are INDEPENDENT STATES just the same as those in the EU!
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In the book, only Arthur was king or leader of any nation
In which dystopian book are you reading? Or is it just the movies?
The books are vast and complex especially when you read the stories of each individual knight and their individual story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_the_Round_Table
Camelot represents a society in perfect harmony – the idea of equality among citizens which is symbolized by the Round Table at Camelot. It is the notion that though our problems, while significant, are never insurmountable.
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ANY of the houses or even small companies could claim the title of First Lord of the SL at any time in the history of the game.
First Succession War
DC announces they are first Lord of the SL – did any other House take this as reality?
The answer is NO.
So when the clans state because we have taken Terra we war now the new SL – will any House take this as a reality?
The answer again is NO.
Delusional as the reality of statements is no way to establish a validity towards an empire’s status.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/22 11:02 AM
45.51.181.83
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No word on where you got the information on where the budget of the SL came from? No funding for research is a lie without the budget to prove it.
No semantics. A military ruler uses force in all cases, while a normal ruler uses force only as a last resort. And this doesn't mean when the opponent won't surrender under the threat of war. So if you can't answer this one, then stop throwing up garbage trying to sound like fact.
Laugh hard, as you were the one to suggest the end of the age of weapons.
Or did you forget the post before last you wrote: Sorry but no – the SL was supposed to end the age of war via economic cooperation.
As stated, someone has to be the police force in order to even attempt reducing weapons across the IS.
DO you think the TH/SL didn't have their own lawyers working against releasing the tech? Have you never heard of lies being said with no intention of following thru? This happens all the time. And the SL did release tech that the other houses didn't have. It was not what the houses really wanted, but it was better then what they had. Once signed, the houses were not about to pull out of the agreement because they were not receiving the most advanced tech in the field they wanted. As it has been pointed out in history, giving others military tech tends to have it used against you.
Were does it say that clause? I have not seen anywhere that is says the SL would be dissolved if they lie. All agreements have some lies in there. But prove the clause.
Guess real world example time. Lies as told all the time, especially by politicians. They promise to help the common person, yet end up helping just those that pay them extra funds. Big business does the same thing, as well as the medical field.
Both unions do hold power over the individual states. So they gave up some power in order to be part of the larger entity. The statement of a nation not giving up their power is false. There is always something that has to be given in order to join a larger entity. So your statement on that never happening is yet again, another flawed statement.
Didn't the TH/SL release hundreds of worlds from their government, only to conquer them to bring them back into the fold? And again, the statement was about history of earth, not the game. Read the text. What is actually written, not the glance over and respond to things not there.
Perfect harmony? Where in the book did it say all crime was eradicated? All nobles were not forcing their people into poverty so they can get richer? The the lords of the land were not sponsoring bandit raids against each other? Or that they stopped attacking foreign nations, in order to increase their power? The fact another army defeated them, says it was not the perfect concept. And yet it is but a fictional book.
Your last response answers your initial question.
You remember this from the first post? Question – how can two clans form a Star League?
Anyone can form a Star League. Whether it is laughed at or survives in the issue.
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Requiem
06/19/22 07:15 PM
1.124.28.209
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No funding for research is a lie without the budget to prove it.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Deborah_Cameron
“She poured resources and funds into the Hegemony's Central Intelligence Bureau (HCIB) and the Department of Foreign Relations (DFR) to expand their powers for the Hegemony's new goals.”
“the Hegemony Armed Forces were not pleased with losing their significant position as important assets of the nation.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ian_Cameron_(26th_c.)
“He first increased funding towards new military innovations and research, in order to appease HAF's military and trying to shore up the Hegemony's dwindling technological edge over its interstellar neighbours.”
Q.E.D. money was diverted from the military to the HCIB and DFR during this 48 year reign of both Deborah and her eldest son.
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semantics
Consider the writings of Carl von Clausewitz.
Also consider the vastly different political positions between a despot utilizing the military and that of a president using the military …..
Semantics ….
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the SL was supposed to end the age of war via economic cooperation.
Whist this was occurring did any House dismantle their military completely or did they shore up their military with newly designed weapon systems?
I do believe it was the latter as shadow wars still occurred between the great Houses.
The idea that the Cameron’s could dictate the size of any House’s military whist expanding theirs exponentially at their dime is a ludicrous position.
As no one can police any state in reducing weapons / size of their military – what occurs next is just hiding production facilities as well as military bases etc. to maintain parity.
Or are we back to structuring the IS as the same way as boys-own adventure books in the 1800’s?
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DO you think the TH/SL didn't have their own lawyers working against releasing the tech?
How else are you going to get the remaining Great Houses to sign on?
There must be a master list of what is in and what is out … and as the TPTB never sat down and actually did the hard work we all suffer due to the stupidity of inadequate writing.
If the Cameron’s were allowed to Lie then by extension all other Lords could at the same time lie about everything at the same time …. And what we now have is a state where no one is trusting each other and all states are building their military for a vast interstellar war.
Suggest looking at King John and Runnymede (Magna Carta) as to the effects of what happens when trust breaks down.
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It was not what the houses really wanted
Oh look, it was a good idea to put that cat flap in the nuclear powered sub!
Advanced Teck = Increased Economic Development = Increased Wealth, power and prestige = Increase in the size of empire via explorer ships = Increased military forces ….. etc
Also where is each Houses’ military R&D at this stage – as noted above the TH’s technology was only very marginally greater than that of the Houses – so why couldn’t they pull ahead in certain fields ….
Once again we are back to very poorly written and thought out plots …..
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I have not seen anywhere that is says the SL would be dissolved if they lie.
Show me a treaty where the major parties violated the major terms and still remained?
Once it is seen as greener on the other side they will jump ship – i.e. the break up of the USSR.
Also countries are not big business.
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So your statement on that never happening is yet again, another flawed statement.
Question – how far can the EU interfere in French politics?
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Didn't the TH/SL release hundreds of worlds from their government, only to conquer them to bring them back into the fold?
At what point did this occur?
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Perfect harmony?
Camelot is an idea … a wish to strive to … it is not factual …
Also did the origins of Knights become evident? as well as the reason for the round table?
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Anyone can form a Star League. Whether it is laughed at or survives in the issue.
Then as per 1st Succession War declarations of war every state’s title is incorrect from the get go … as we should therefore have
The Star League of the FWL, the CC, the LC, the DC, and the FS and not just the names provided …. And every House Lord should change their title to First Lord Archon, First Lord Prince, First Lord Coordinator …… etc.
Thus making the entire proposition a complete joke.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/22 08:41 PM
45.51.181.83
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Put up the link to the budget for the time frame that no real R&D was done. Having the budget cut is not the same as not having any money at all, which is the way it was put.
The example given does NOT support losing R&D funding. It says the military was not happy being pushed into the background of importance. So once again, a lie covered by trying to twist what is said.
The statement of: “the Hegemony Armed Forces were not pleased with losing their significant position as important assets of the nation.” suggest the military budget was cut, not research.
Consider facing the facts. A military ruler uses force to rule. The only military ruler during the creation of the SL was the DC. Quoting or trying to suggest reading other crap doesn't change this. The FS, LC, and FWL were basic democracies, as the regions within voted for things, while the CC was more towards a coop. Dictatorship, IE the DC, was the only military ruler at the time. Even the TH wasn't military ruler.
Sorry. Where did it say the houses did any dismantling of their forces? The main thing said was limiting their forces, which started the downfall of the SL.
You missed the entire concept of the SL being the main military power here. The SL was going to keep the peace, so the houses could work towards their infrastructure, without worrying so much about their neighbors striking at them. This does not mean they completely neglected building up their own forces, but it did remove the burden of having a huge military to maintain. As the SL was the only one each house partially trusted, they would remain the police force.
Did you read the same materials everyone else did? All the houses together, much less a single house, could not match the SL for forces. Not sure where the crap of trying to comes from.
The TH said they would give more tech to the houses. Just because you think that means the latest and greatest military units as well as top tier tech, doesn't make it so. The tech would be things like upgraded medical equipment or even older ships that are still better then the ones the houses had. Something like a jumpships nav computer being able to calculate a jump in under a half hour instead of 3 hours.
What your suggesting is that the U.S. gives away their best tech to small countries to sign up with something like NATO. That just isn't going to happen.
Funny. You continue to run the alt along the canon storyline and say things like: Once again we are back to very poorly written and thought out plots …..
Another funny statement: Advanced Teck = Increased Economic Development = Increased Wealth, power and prestige = Increase in the size of empire via explorer ships = Increased military forces ….. etc
Where is it stated that having a gun that can destroy a planet increases economic developement? Other then extorting others into slavery?
Advanced tech that helps economies would be terraforming tech, as well as better mining equipment and processing equipment. Not everything is based on military advances.
More then a few treaties still are in effect even though all parties have lied about things. Trade treaties being one that gets canceled and reformed, only to have both sides lie, to redo it again.
The EU has a large grasp of what countries that are part of it can do. They can dictate terms of what can and can't be traded, forces move into what nations and more then a few other things. Each nation has the ability to fight it, but for the most part, France can not just bomb Germany or Spain because they feel like it. Nor can them just help push illegal drugs into other nations.
The release then conquering of worlds happened right after the great exodus. Where the TA left the colonies on their own, then reconquered them when they became the TH.
There was not perfect harmony in the king Arthur story. They united countries, but it was not a perfect harmony. If it was, then it would not have went back into a civil war. Other countries in the great nation would not have joined up to fight against Arthur. Oooops. Did that fact slip thru the cracks?
Well what do you know? You finally figured out why the SL was left behind after a few decades of war. And honestly, there were those titles when the houses were first formed. It was only after they fully formed they dropped most of the first titles. 9 archons with a first, 10 princes with a first. Each region of the DC had a coordinator...
The SL became a sick joke during the 1st succession war. In order to reform the SL, they had to kill everyone else off. By the 3rd war, most realized the SL was dead and not coming back.
Edited by ghostrider (06/19/22 11:20 PM)
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Karagin
06/19/22 09:13 PM
70.118.172.64
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One can do a lot with a bayonet except sit on it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/19/22 11:47 PM
1.124.23.123
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Quote:
So once again, a lie covered by trying to twist what is said. The statement of: “the Hegemony Armed Forces were not pleased with losing their significant position as important assets of the nation.” suggest the military budget was cut, not research.
Whereas the next statement “He first increased funding towards new military innovations and research …”
Makes it very clear that the research budget was cut.
Quote:
A military ruler uses force to rule.
Semantics …. This is a Feudal Society whereby all Houses have recognised that the warrior is now at the highest social status position … i.e. the ruler of each world (eg. Duke) also maintains the highest military rank for this world – hence it is just semantics …
Quote:
Where did it say the houses did any dismantling of their forces? - You missed the entire concept of the SL being the main military power here.
How hard is it to understand that …
2606 - Executive Order 34.
2613 – Security Mech Treaty.
2650 – Council Edict of 2650 …. Etc.
By not opposing these “SL laws” they in effect dismantle the size / effectiveness of all House military forces and by allowing the SLDF to leach off of each Houses Military Industrial Complexes all houses are effectively arming their political rival.
The SLDF gains in size as each House’s force is effectively neutered.
Quote:
The SL was going to keep the peace
Yes, keeping the peace at the end of gun is such a great political strategy!
Quote:
the houses could work towards their infrastructure, without worrying so much about their neighbours striking at them.
Then what was …
The use of “pirates’’ to strike at other houses … the Second Hidden War?
Quote:
the SL was the only one each house partially trusted, they would remain the police force.
Enforcers is a more apt term …
Quote:
Did you read the same materials everyone else did? All the houses together, much less a single house, could match the SL for forces.
And this is the problem – it is completely unbelievable that a great house would allow such a situation to stand – once it becomes obvious that the Cameron family had become Dictators – with issuing Executive Orders that bypasses all other House Lords – it is clear a war of self determination is on the off – Hence all Houses will begin establishing a hidden army to fight the SLDF to obtain their independence …
The problem is what was written was a boys-own 1800’s fluff piece that failed to take into account any realism.
The cannon story is about as believable as a cat flap in a nuclear powered sub at this stage!
Quote:
What your suggesting is that the U.S. gives away their best tech to small countries to sign up with something like NATO.
Really? Consider the following …
Feb 2022 Finland concluded the procurement contracts for the Lockheed Martin F-35A
15 May 2022 Prime Minister Sanna Marin and President Sauli Niinistö at the press conference announcing Finland's intent to apply to NATO – ie its application.
Not give away, but definitely the ability to purchase ….
So yes that definitely did happen.
Quote:
Where is it stated that having a gun that can destroy a planet increases economic development?
Basic Military Keynesian economic theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Keynesianism
Quote:
Trade treaties
And defence pacts?
Quote:
The EU
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquis_communautaire
The EU can only act in those areas where its member countries have authorised it to do so.
Quote:
happened right after the great exodus.
Thus had absolutely nothing to do with the SL.
Quote:
There was not perfect harmony in the king Arthur story.
Which Arthurian literature version are you looking at? Remember the story represents its time.
Quote:
By the 3rd war, most realized the SL was dead and not coming back.
And that of the 4th Succession War it became obvious that the FC could reform the SL
With what should have been the fall of the CC by 3030 the IS now should have had only 3 Houses remaining – problem is TPTB ruined the entire game from this point forward due to their inability to manufacture a more realistic story …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/20/22 01:14 AM
45.51.181.83
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No. It doesn't say the research budget was cut. It just says the next person increased it. Much like there is a steady increase in several budgets of nations now. National defense sees some sort of increase almost every year, but that doesn't mean it was cut the year prior.
Semantics again? Try definitions. It appears a lack of vocabulary definitions continues to show up. I guess Ghandi was a dictator under the semantics.
Arming their political rivals, yet their political rivals would be arming them in that case. So where is the dismantling coming from? I see more smoke being blown around, yet we already know that the houses did NOT dismantle their forces. They did in fact increase their forces, and got free training for those that served the SL as well.
Where is it written that each house could not leave the SL? Where is it written that the only way to independence was thru force of arms? You mean the lawyers did not have an out clause like the LC had with the FS for the FC? Prove that the clause did not exist. Where is the printed form from a canon source at? Not the fake garbage that keeps coming up from someone pushing an alt.
Peace at the end of a gun. That is a military ruler's vision. But I doubt this will sink in.
Wow. Enforcers that kept the peace, instead of the IS nuking themselves silly hundreds of years earlier. What do you think a police force is? They enforce the laws. Your implication suggests they were dictator secret police that killed for pleasure. This was not the case in most scenarios. There is always someone that will violate their oaths, but that is not the norm.
Yeah. The houses joined up with the TH to form the SL, and they could not stand that their military was not the same size as the SL, which is interesting, as the house militaries were not the same size as the TH's military. So how does that work? Join the largest military in the galaxy, or fight it? In the end, the TH/SL was the largest force in the galaxy. So yeah. Something is wrong there. Maybe each house should have gone to war with the TH, as they had the largest military. Smart move...
Better wake up. The best tech was not given to Finland. They were able to purchase tech that is outdated by years. I have not heard of any super advanced tech given to them. The tech they bought could be had from any country. Why not try saying this about Haiti or Somalia. I guess they got nukes for free... OH wait. According to your statement, North Korea got them from the U.S.
As stated, besides extorting your neighbors into slavery. Again, read the entire statements.
Yet you said that no country would give up any rights for another to order it around. Funny how you show how to make false statement that you know are false, then prove they are false with your next post.
The nation that started the SL was the nation that did the deeds. The TH was formed from that very action, and it carried over into the SL. They even tried it with the periphery just before the end.
Represents it's time? Where nobles commited crimes against their people and got away with it until revolts succeeded. Arthur stole lands and revoked the people's rights across the lands, and did it in the name of harmony and progress. How many people lost everything because they were not supportive of losing everything to someone else with no choice? His own child destroyed the 'perfect' society made.
Hanse did not want to become first lord of a dead nation. Katrina did not seem to want it either, as she did not try and force her to be incharge of it. And no. It was not obvious the FC could reform the SL, as that meant having to go to war to subject the DC, FWL, and CC to make it. The history of the succession wars have shown that only crushing the enemy would allow the SL back, and Hanse did not want to even try that. The glowing worlds showed the folly to that, but it is something you don't comprehend. Victory or death being the motto that comes to mind.
As for realistic story, it runs pretty close to most in history. A charismatic leader leads a nation to greatness, only to have one of their spoiled children destroy it. And it wasn't Victor that did so, so don't bother.
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Requiem
06/20/22 05:01 AM
1.124.27.163
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Comprehension of totality of information / Read in conjunction with other posts the inference is the military received a severe budget cut and only after 48 years was their budgetary amount increased.
If Ghandi was the Lord of his World and at the same time their military’s commanding officer then yes this is semantics ….
The Council Edict of 2650 is reducing the number of available forces – i.e. dismantling their existing forces.
2578 – Lyran Commonwealth attempts to secede from the Star League – what happened here?
When the SLDF has a vast military force far in excess of all Houses then yes this does become peace at the end of gun!
The SLDF are the personal enforcers of the First Lord! Enforcers are overt not covert – the idea with enforcer is to be seen when you step on someone when they step out of line to demonstrate the power of lord over their vassals.
So how does that work?
Simple – covertly build up their forces to maintain parity, which should be incredibly simple when you consider that Amaris (RWR) was able to pull it off.
Question how is the F-35 outdated by years – what is more advanced than this? and how can you purchase an F-35 from another country?
According to your statement North Korea got them from the U.S.
This statement is just an out and out misconception of what was written – The fact remains the original statement is correct.
What are the aims of the UN? And why was it established?
In understanding this it becomes understandable as to what is occurring and why these countries enter into agreements in order to establish an economic advantage.
Arthur stole lands and revoked the people's rights across the lands, and did it in the name of harmony and progress – in which story was this discussed – also in which version was it discussed.
Question - Hanse did not want to become first lord of a dead nation. – how is this going to occur at the end of the 4th Succession War?
Also if two realms have merged together and a third has been wiped out of existence and the FWL is a basket case how is this not obvious that the SL is about to be reformed under Hanse?
As shown in previous forum post the CC could never have withstood the 3030 war!
And post 4th Succession War the FWL do not have any viable leadership …
As for realistic story, it runs pretty close to most in history. A charismatic leader leads a nation to greatness, only to have one of their spoiled children destroy it. -
Really? There are more plot holes in this story where it becomes important to just bang your head against a wall just to remain sane …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/20/22 10:39 AM
45.51.181.83
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So by your definition, there is no other type of ruler but military. Good to know. This shows a lack of understanding definitions of things yet again.
The term enforcers tends to be a negative image for troops. It has also become clear that anarchy is the only thing that is acceptable to have, unless a certain someone is in charge, then dictatorship is used. According to the responses, no other form of government exists. Just military dictatorship or anarchy.
Do you understand that the military has outdated electronics and such in units that are sold to other nations? The fighters sold to Finland, and other countries as well are not the top of the line units. Also the if I know right, the F-35 is a jointly made fighter. So it is NOT a U.S. only built fighter. Germany and others build it. So it is NOT giving U.S. high tech to other nations.
All the stories versions has Arthur and his followers attacking all the people of the country that did not just fall down to the ground and bend their knee to him. Crime still happened, and if you check out some of the missions the knights went on, they were the criminals. No sort of discussion to end things without violence. Just submit or die.
The SL was dead, and Hanse was fine to leave it that way. Had the CC been completely destroyed, the FWL would have gotten over their issues and actually joined together to fight the FC properly. They would have seen what was to come and did something about it. And end to the fighting is what Hanse wanted. The concept is foreign to you, but absolute power is not the only method of securing that. The SL was set up originally to allow diplomatic solutions to problems, but when corrupt people got into power, it became the dictators dream. Each house has gone thru the same thing the SL did. Human nature cycled thru it's phases.
Obvious the the SL was not going to be formed under Hanse? Maybe reading his thoughts on the situation. He did not have the motivation to even try to become first lord. That definitely was said as he was thinking about the invasion of Luthien. Or did you miss that one as well?
Keeping with the goal of humiliating Max, the 4th war was not about becoming first lord. It was to destroy Max Liao, and take away his ability to threaten the FS/FC. This is stated a few times in several books. It was to punish Max, and the CC as they were the ones that bore the brunt of the losses.
Had the 3039 war went better, then the idea may have crossed his mind, but in the clan invasion, it was shown he thought the SL was permanently dead. That is the way he thought when he first took over as leader of the FS.
It was given the reasons why the CC survived, though I don't like the outcome. In game, the CC was still used to buffer parts of the FWL border, and the DC was starting to make headway. The interdiction from Comstar showed the total war change over was hurting the economy as well as the people. So Hanse ended it. This is all printed in the source books. No where in any of them does it say the 4th war was to create a new SL.
So life repeating itself is a plot hole? Explains why logic seems to be just out of reach at times. And you should stop banging your head against the wall. That may be why reading between the lines and 'superior' comprehension hasn't been true.
Until you can prove the Alt is good, just drop it. Post a link to everyone can see the whole thing and decide for themselves. The claim the writers of the games story line is horrible, yet the only solution can not be viewed at all. Do you think the developers don't constantly say their vision is the only solution, and it is the best?
Prove the alt is better. Put up or shut up.
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Requiem
06/20/22 08:09 PM
1.124.18.96
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Military Ruler Definition
- In BattleTech Terms - Political regime in which the military, as an organization, holds the preponderance / administration of power upon worlds and the Interstellar empire as a whole.
Enforcers
- Unknown juxtaposition from overt capabilities to that of anarchy.
F-35
https://www.quora.com/Is-the-US-version-...tional-versions
“There are no differences between the US acquired F-35 & the foreign customer’s F-35s that are intended to give the US a superior version.”
King Arthur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur#:~:text=King%20Arthur%20(Welsh%3A%20Brenin%20Arthur,5th%20and%20early%206th%20centuries.
https://www.bartleby.com/essay/Code-Of-C...%20of%20conduct,safe%2C%20and%20good%20it%20was.
Including the following quote …
“This basic code of conduct is to treat each other with respect, be courageous, have honour in our actions, do not hurt anyone, stand up for what is right and be honest. Because the Knight of the round table followed this code Camelot became known for how chivalrous, safe, and good it was. As a result, common people of the land placed immense trust and faith in the knights which led them to try and emulate it among themselves to live up to their heroes’ expectations.”
The SL was dead, and Hanse was fine to leave it that way.
Problem here is that facts get in the way – as to why the war codified as “The Fourth Succession War”?
Hanse Davion is a warlord of his time, meaning his, and that of his realm, sole aim is to restore the Star League under the Rulership of the Liege Lord (Hanse).
Fact – The 3039-40 War provides Hanse with the perfect chance to remove Liao / CC from the board – and only TPTB’s ineptitude saved this state from their true fate of becoming a conquered state.
FWL – September 3030 Duchy of Andurien seceded from the League, and allied with the Magistracy of Canopus – providing Hanse with the perfect foil in the CC’s rear. The Duchy of Oriente also would be more than willing to strike the CC in the back at the same time as Hanse’s war of conquest – they have a deep-seated desire for revenge against the Capellans, and again Hanse can exploit this if desired.
Can you therefore explain in clear coherent terms as to how superior the Clan Invasion / FC Civil War is?
As far as I can see it is pathetically written diatribe of the most ludicrous invasion and stupid war between that of a brother and sister ever written – it is on terms with 1800’s boys-own adventure books for its level of inept writing and staging of events! It is just that bad!
Sorry but I have no desire to ever post my final alt history, all that is required is that my history confirms to my sensibilities, I do not have to prove anything to anyone!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
06/20/22 09:49 PM
70.118.172.64
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How can an ALT be used to prove anything since, yet again, it's not canon, thus it's going to be wrong.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/20/22 10:10 PM
1.124.31.75
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A personal ALT does not have to prove anything since it is not canon, it is for the personal enjoyment of she/he who wrote it and thus is going to be correct only for the one who constructed the Alt.
To all others they may view it as wrong – but again they view canon as being the sole depository of knowledge and cannot contemplate their being anything but canon.
Though, on a personal note, I cannot see why as the canon story is so incredibly pitifully written that in too many cases the story and the characters lose all credibility.
Is it at all possible that we now return to the original questions?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/20/22 10:39 PM
45.51.181.83
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Where in all of the books does the game defines a military ruler as your definition? The organizations besides the DC, use other methods to get things done other then military pressure.
And yet, those that were ruling the country were not sitting at the round table besides Arthur. So the rules of conduct did not apply to them like it did the knights. This is part of why the knights had to run patrols throughout the realm, in order to keep the peace. Some even attacked the knights in order to be rid of them.
The use of the 4th succession war was far better then the war to punish Max Liao. As all houses were involved in the war, the succession title was put into effect. Hence the 3039 war was not a succession war, though given your insistence that all wars were to re-establish the SL would suggest. Not difficult to figure that out. Much like the World Wars verse most other wars, even though multiple nations are involved.
Ineptness? The logical opponent was the DC. This argument has been done before and you lost then. Why try again now? Had Comstar not got involved, the DC would have been hurting without having another realm ready to reinforce it. The FWL and CC was not about to get involved.
And there you stated it. Hanse could have exploited it if he wanted to. So that means he was not trying to become the first lord of a dead nation. Next fact that needs to be restated again.
The continuation of using 'facts' that do not exist to argue canon is the very reason why the alt has to be proven or left out of the conversations.
PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
The alt will never be put up for all to read, as the logic issues do not get removed, but compounded by more illogical instances that seem to always come out with the same end game. The writer of a story will always say their story is far better then anything, but yet won't let anyone else see it, as they would rip it apart as done with canon.
And yet the lies continue. Who here has said canon was without fault? Just the opposite is done. What is being said is that the views of one person continues to be shoved into coversations as fact, when only those put out by the makers are considered fact. This is the basic concept lost to the alt writer. Others play alts, but they do not put up their views as facts, then argue it is the only way to fix the game. Just one person seems to do that.
You want back on topic, that was pretty much answered.
Anyone can claim a title to their nation. Whether others will laugh or take is seriously is the question.
Those that claim the title do NOT have to adhere to the originals concepts on how things are run. They will run it the way that is the most logical and makes sense to them.
Only the creators understand the entire concept of the clans. Other views are just that. Views. Someone using outside fake facts trying to say things such as the creators don't know their own creations is the problem.
This has been said before, and yet ignored before. Don't ask questions you don't want the answer to.
The canon story line has a lot of issues. No one that has posted since I have been here has said otherwise. More then a few have stated that the story line doesn't matter, as they play as they are going to, and leave it at that. Had it not been for trying to make more money, the entire back story should have been done only after they had all the history figured out. Retcons screws up a lot of problems that were there to begin with.
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Requiem
06/20/22 11:19 PM
1.124.17.189
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Please provide a definition of a military ruler as per BattleTech Books which incorporates all Bibliography information. If unable to locate then may I suggest utilizing a reputable definition as a template.
King Arthur
Please note these engagements occurred in foreign lands, as any engagements within Arthur’s lands were due to raids from foreign lands – As stated previously which version are you reading as the earliest version are from the 12th Century and then progress from there …
Or are you looking at this via Prince Valiant?
3039
Question what happens in the IS if Hanse did conquer the Capellan Confederation during the 3039-40 war?
Ans: Everyone is put on notice that Hanse is in a position to assume the title of First Lord.
So this definitely means that Hanse is definitely in a position to become First Lord!
Put up or Shut Up
I do not have to prove anything to anyone – my Alt is mine and mine alone!
Others play alts, but they do not put up their views as facts, then argue it is the only way to fix the game. Just one person seems to do that.
Question – As the game stands can it survive given what is occurring within Warhammer currently? Fix it now or very shortly BattleTech will only be a footnote within the gaming community in the near future due to becoming unviable when Warhammer becomes the monopolistic table-top war game for new entrants.
If no one takes this warning seriously so be it – I will remember the table-top game fondly for the good times.
However if anyone wants to resurrect the game from where it is now then serious changes must be implemented, as well as a massive marketing rebranding.
Only the creators understand the entire concept of the clans.
Really? Then why publish any books regarding the Clans in an attempt to explain them?
It is quite clear from all source books provided they are a dangerous anachronism that should never have been allowed in the game – remember the 1950’s Comics Censorship? You should given the current climate!
Question – Are Retcons a mistake or are they an attempt to fix previous mistakes in the hope of explaining canon inconsistencies – or should the entire back story be retired for one massive New Retcon History?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
06/21/22 12:12 AM
70.118.172.64
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Here is an idea, take some time, and present your COMPLETE ALT from start to finish. Then let us read it, go over it talk about it, and then we can give you the feedback you want. This piecemeal your's is better than canon approach isn't working.
Your ideas, are just that, yours. Just as my ideas on why I think everything post -3067 is complete garbage in my opinion are mine. Does it mean I am wrong? Nope, it just means I am not in agreement with the PTB, and that means I don't follow the canon setting anymore. That said, I am not pushing my ideas like they as gospel like you are Requiem. You want us to see your point of view then give it all to us, not in chunks. Give us the whole thing. chapter and verse. Otherwise, all you are doing is showing that you have poor fan fiction and do not like their fan fiction challenged. And unless you are going pull a Stephenie Meyer and take your fan fiction like she took her 50 Shades Fan Fiction and turn it into something else, I would suggest you stop now and find something else to discuss.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/21/22 12:33 AM
45.51.181.83
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Reputable definition? You think your definition is reputable? There are a few places in the old books that tell how each government runs. GO find them, as it is obvious you either haven't done so, or have forgotten most of what is printed.
As information from your fan fiction is constantly thrown up as facts and saying it is the only solution to the problems with the writing of the game, then say it is yours alone, then make it yours alone and stop shoving it down everyone's throat. There is only one person that says it is the only solution and no one else has been able to see it, makes everything sound like Blue Whale Excrement, as it is multi ton at this point.
Still not getting it thru your skull? Hanse could be in the position, yet he will not try to take the title. This has been said many times before, but yet the truth of the fact still doesn't register in your responses.
The books do explain how the clans run and operate, it just seems like one person decided they didn't like it and are putting out fan fiction in order to change it. Still doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, only the creators can say what is and isn't done in their creations.
You are worried about the game? Go buy the copyrights. I am going to assume they turned down your application to save them, so you are trying another approach. Go to the official Battletech board and try there.
As you keep saying show where the information is coming from, that will be the mantra with your information. Show me where I can read the 'facts' you keep throwing up. There is no where that anyone can read this supposed alt writings. No where that one can say it is better then the canon story, as what we have seen is full of holes, and that is without adding in the canon issues that keep getting followed.
Question – What are TPTB thinking in going down this path – do they even understand who and what the Clans truly represent - as this is setting the game up for another Jihad!
Do you even understand what the alt is suggesting? There is print on the clans that all can read. There is nothing on the alt that can be compared to. Just one person saying it is better.
Put up or shut up.
Retcons are supposed to clear up issues, but in most of the games retcon, they change the history of the game story. Things that were never in the game until the time of the retcon, but would have changed the story had something like the mobile HPG, or ER equipment had been found and duplicated. The thousands of SL bases and caches found, yet nothing that suggested the SL was better then anything up to the clan invasion.
Edited by ghostrider (06/21/22 12:41 AM)
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Karagin
06/21/22 01:04 AM
70.118.172.64
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He tried to buy the rights? Did I miss something? Another Jihad? I hope we aren't heading back to that piss poor storyline...gods no, please...not that crap again.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
06/21/22 01:08 AM
70.118.172.64
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If Requiem took his ALT to the main BT forums they would not entertain them anywhere near as nice as we do here. In fact, it's likely they would have tossed him off of the forums, but that's my opinion only, I don't speak for any of the moderators over. Now if he really wants honest input on his ALT over there would be a good place to get it, then he would be getting real FAN and a lot of FANBOY input for sure. Might be the best thing for him. Again my opinion only.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/21/22 03:49 AM
1.124.30.31
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Quote:
Feedback
I would suggest you stop now and find something else to discuss.
GO find them, as it is obvious you either haven't done so, or have forgotten most of what is printed.
makes everything sound like Blue Whale Excrement, as it is multi ton at this point.
then say it is yours alone, then make it yours alone and stop shoving it down everyone's throat.
Still not getting it thru your skull?
Put up or shut up.
He tried to buy the rights? Did I miss something? Another Jihad? I hope we aren't heading back to that piss poor storyline...gods no, please...not that crap again.
it's likely they would have tossed him off of the forums,
Can I please suggest re-reading what was written above as it reads as if being interested in creating negative waves against me personally than actually ever providing a positive critique.
This is why the Alt will never be provided.
Can I now please ask again can we get back on topic on hand? as we have strayed very far from the original topic.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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